D/C and wiping more likely in a group? Not necessarily. Depends on the connection to the server. Crap connections can be obtained by anyone for a myriad of reasons. Sorry but you're just making facts up.
Each player has a chance to D/C. If someone D/Cs (especially the tank or healer) there is a good chance the group will wipe. Thus - more chance of a wipe when grouping.
And so, rather than give balanced options that provide incentives for each playstyle, your solution is to remove the options altogether.
Yes. I want to remove the chance to level up by playing solo in a multiplayer game. If you want to do all that other content (like the AH and crafting) you are free to solo that.
Didn't SOE try something similar by making anything beyond Level 25ish completely unsoloable in EQ2 when it launched? And everyone who tried to solo anything beyond that level jumped ship to WoW. That worked well in SOE's favour didn't it?
I have no personal experience with that game, but I'd say it worked well for the people who wanted to group in that game.
You're not interested in anything else but to drive out the solo'ers leaving an exclusively small playerbase who are desperate to hang onto the "old times" as they recall them through their rose tinted glasses. Good luck on that one.
Oh, I know it's an uphill battle, but there are players out there who do want group-focused games.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
D/C and wiping more likely in a group? Not necessarily. Depends on the connection to the server. Crap connections can be obtained by anyone for a myriad of reasons. Sorry but you're just making facts up.
Each player has a chance to D/C. If someone D/Cs (especially the tank or healer) there is a good chance the group will wipe. Thus - more chance of a wipe when grouping.
And so, rather than give balanced options that provide incentives for each playstyle, your solution is to remove the options altogether.
Yes. I want to remove the chance to level up by playing solo in a multiplayer game. If you want to do all that other content (like the AH and crafting) you are free to solo that.
Didn't SOE try something similar by making anything beyond Level 25ish completely unsoloable in EQ2 when it launched? And everyone who tried to solo anything beyond that level jumped ship to WoW. That worked well in SOE's favour didn't it?
I have no personal experience with that game, but I'd say it worked well for the people who wanted to group in that game.
You're not interested in anything else but to drive out the solo'ers leaving an exclusively small playerbase who are desperate to hang onto the "old times" as they recall them through their rose tinted glasses. Good luck on that one.
Oh, I know it's an uphill battle, but there are players out there who do want group-focused games.
Lol. Good luck on using such a blinkered attitude in this current economic climate. I'm sure such an MMO will be really successful and popular from the outset. I'm sure the investors will love it when the devs have to explain that they won't be seeing a return on their investment any time soon. Of course, that's IF the MMO has investors and got past launch.
Your argument is like proposing an immediate ban of cars on roads just to get people to use buses / trains. Given the society we live in, such extremes are just not practical and financially suicidal.
But I suppose that rather than blaming the devs laziness for failing to provide incentives and activities for a particular players own particular playstyle, its easier to just place the blame on a different playstyle altogether.
D/C and wiping more likely in a group? Not necessarily. Depends on the connection to the server. Crap connections can be obtained by anyone for a myriad of reasons. Sorry but you're just making facts up.
Each player has a chance to D/C. If someone D/Cs (especially the tank or healer) there is a good chance the group will wipe. Thus - more chance of a wipe when grouping.
And so, rather than give balanced options that provide incentives for each playstyle, your solution is to remove the options altogether.
Yes. I want to remove the chance to level up by playing solo in a multiplayer game. If you want to do all that other content (like the AH and crafting) you are free to solo that.
Didn't SOE try something similar by making anything beyond Level 25ish completely unsoloable in EQ2 when it launched? And everyone who tried to solo anything beyond that level jumped ship to WoW. That worked well in SOE's favour didn't it?
I have no personal experience with that game, but I'd say it worked well for the people who wanted to group in that game.
You're not interested in anything else but to drive out the solo'ers leaving an exclusively small playerbase who are desperate to hang onto the "old times" as they recall them through their rose tinted glasses. Good luck on that one.
Oh, I know it's an uphill battle, but there are players out there who do want group-focused games.
Forced grouping is a failed option. Besides you don't have to group to have player interaction. Ultima Online really didn't have grouping in the same way as some mmos do now. People helped each other out because we wanted to not because other people were our best chance at getting epic loot. Grouping is fine if people do more than stand around killing endless mobs for hour upon hour. Why should people waste their time grouping if the other group members are just using them to get better loot. Bring back people with some common decency not afriad to actually say more than hi in a group and grouping will come back by itself. Rading and the loot it brings to the games killed the social aspect of grouping and turned the vast majoirty into elitist loot whores with no sense of community.
Forced grouping is a failed option. Besides you don't have to group to have player interaction. Ultima Online really didn't have grouping in the same way as some mmos do now. People helped each other out because we wanted to not because other people were our best chance at getting epic loot. Grouping is fine if people do more than stand around killing endless mobs for hour upon hour. Why should people waste their time grouping if the other group members are just using them to get better loot. Bring back people with some common decency not afriad to actually say more than hi in a group and grouping will come back by itself. Rading and the loot it brings to the games killed the social aspect of grouping and turned the vast majoirty into elitist loot whores with no sense of community.
Precisely. There is no need to FORCE any playstyle on an entire MMO playerbase.
More options = happier playbase.
I'm all for having a decent community in an MMO. But enforcing grouping or raiding in favour of any other activity is not the Golden Ticket that some are making it sound to be.
Games don't force people to act like morons, the individuals have to have that disposition from the start.
What makes me chuckle is that the so-called advocates of "old school" grouping make it sound like we live in a world were everyones door is open and everyone warmly greets complete strangers with open arms and that solo play turns these people into complete anti-social morons. Its complete nonsense. Just take a look at the population in a train. None of them talk to each other.
It saddens me a bit when people refuse to compromise, and can only see things in black and white. Because such individuals are so blinkered by their hatred of any options that differ to their own they must go through life very angry.
Besides you don't have to group to have player interaction.
Correct.
Ultima Online really didn't have grouping in the same way as some mmos do now. People helped each other out because we wanted to not because other people were our best chance at getting epic loot.
Some people helped each other out. Others PKed them.
Grouping is fine if people do more than stand around killing endless mobs for hour upon hour.
It's not for me, but some players like that.
Why should people waste their time grouping if the other group members are just using them to get better loot.
They shouldn't. Grouping is for mutual beneift.
Bring back people with some common decency not afriad to actually say more than hi in a group and grouping will come back by itself. Rading and the loot it brings to the games killed the social aspect of grouping and turned the vast majoirty into elitist loot whores with no sense of community.
Is pandering to soloers going to bring back players with common decency and a sense of community?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Besides you don't have to group to have player interaction.
Correct.
Ultima Online really didn't have grouping in the same way as some mmos do now. People helped each other out because we wanted to not because other people were our best chance at getting epic loot.
Some people helped each other out. Others PKed them.
Grouping is fine if people do more than stand around killing endless mobs for hour upon hour.
It's not for me, but some players like that.
Why should people waste their time grouping if the other group members are just using them to get better loot.
They shouldn't. Grouping is for mutual beneift.
Bring back people with some common decency not afriad to actually say more than hi in a group and grouping will come back by itself. Rading and the loot it brings to the games killed the social aspect of grouping and turned the vast majoirty into elitist loot whores with no sense of community.
Is pandering to soloers going to bring back players with common decency and a sense of community?
1) So if you agree that you don't have to group in order to interact in a multiplayer environment, why are you so dead set against soloing in MMO's?
2) I bet those PK'ers weren't alone either, did they group up with others in order to be complete idiots perhaps?
3) So, you are advocating favouring a particular playstyle even though its not YOUR playstyle. Why can't you appreciate other playstyles inhabiting the same game too?
Please stop blaming solo'ers for the decline in social standards in MMO's. Seriously, that is complete nonsense. I know very decent solo'ers, and I have met complete idiots who inhabit groups. And they are idiots for the same reasons as someone could be an idiot in a solo situation. Soloing doesn't promote selfishness or moronic behaviour, such behaviour is purely down to the individual. The player has to have that disposition in the first place. Remember how groups used to kill steal in MMO's before WoW? I certainly do. Was griefing prevelant in MMO's before WoW? Yep.
The point is that the decline in social standards in MMO's is a product of the times. It mirrors the decline in social standards in the real world. Hence the blame is placed solely on the individual and their disposition, not necessarily the environment that they inhabit.
1) So if you agree that you don't have to group in order to interact, why are you so dead set against soloing?
It depends on your definition of soloing. Soloers don't interact - they ignore other players.
I'm talking more about co-operation than being in a formal 'group'. It just serves the purpose to required the grouping.
2) I bet those PK'ers weren't alone either, did they group up with others in order to be complete idiots perhaps?
Some did, sure. PKers aren't known for their courage.
3) So you are advocating favouring a particular playstyle even though its not YOUR playstyle.
It's grinding mobs I'm not in favour of, not grouping. I want to do PvP, dungeons, or something like WH Online's PQs when grouped.
Why can't you appreciate other playstyles inhabiting the same game too?
Because the game will be changed to suit them, not the groupers; and because soloers will group for the right carrots, and they spoil the groups they join.
Please stop blaming solo'ers for the decline in social standards in MMO's. Seriously, that is complete nonsense.
No. They are to blame. Predominantly, not exclusively.
I know very decent solo'ers, and I have met complete idiots who inhabit groups.
Sure. No doubt about it. They are the exception, though.
If you're not anti-social, why aren't you grouping?
And they are idiots for the same reasons as someone could be an idiot in a solo situation. Soloing doesn't promote selfishness or moronic behaviour, such behaviour is purely down to the individual.
Selfishness does promote soloing, though. Inablitly to socialize does, as well. Both are bad qualities for MMORPG players.
People who don't want to play with others are free to play single player games. There are enough of them out there.
The player has to have that disposition in the first place. Remember how groups used to kill steal in MMO's before WoW? I certainly do. Was griefing prevelant in MMO's before WoW? Yep.
Very true.
What anti-soloing mechanics do is discourage that anti-social player from playing the game in the first place.
If someone can't get one other player to group with him, then he's probably not fit for an MMO.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
1) So if you agree that you don't have to group in order to interact, why are you so dead set against soloing?
It depends on your definition of soloing. Soloers don't interact - they ignore other players.
I'm talking more about co-operation than being in a formal 'group'. It just serves the purpose to required the grouping.
2) I bet those PK'ers weren't alone either, did they group up with others in order to be complete idiots perhaps?
Some did, sure. PKers aren't known for their courage.
3) So you are advocating favouring a particular playstyle even though its not YOUR playstyle.
It's grinding mobs I'm not in favour of, not grouping. I want to do PvP, dungeons, or something like WH Online's PQs when grouped.
Why can't you appreciate other playstyles inhabiting the same game too?
Because the game will be changed to suit them, not the groupers; and because soloers will group for the right carrots, and they spoil the groups they join.
Please stop blaming solo'ers for the decline in social standards in MMO's. Seriously, that is complete nonsense.
No. They are to blame. Predominantly, not exclusively.
I know very decent solo'ers, and I have met complete idiots who inhabit groups.
Sure. No doubt about it. They are the exception, though.
If you're not anti-social, why aren't you grouping?
And they are idiots for the same reasons as someone could be an idiot in a solo situation. Soloing doesn't promote selfishness or moronic behaviour, such behaviour is purely down to the individual.
Selfishness does promote soloing, though. Inablitly to socialize does, as well. Both are bad qualities for MMORPG players.
People who don't want to play with others are free to play single player games. There are enough of them out there.
The player has to have that disposition in the first place. Remember how groups used to kill steal in MMO's before WoW? I certainly do. Was griefing prevelant in MMO's before WoW? Yep.
Very true.
What anti-soloing mechanics do is discourage that anti-social player from playing the game in the first place.
If someone can't get one other player to group with him, then he's probably not fit for an MMO.
Yet again, you are showing that you have a very blinkered viewpoint about groupers and soloers. It's not as black and white and you make it sound. Implying that soloing is the root of all that is bad in regards to social standards in MMOs is just plain laughable. The thousands of asshat groupers (people who enjoy grouping over soloing) just as there are decent solo'ers out there prove that fact. Just because your experiences have been tainted by moronic and selfish behaviour exhibited by particular individuals doesn't immediately mean that everyone of a same playstyle is the same.
That's comparable to being racist based on the grounds that you met one person of a particular race who was an idiot. Look up the defintion for the term "bigot" and you may find it closely matches your prejudice.
Your predictions in regards to content in MMO's are also flawed too. MMO devs develop content to suit the playerbase and whilst it is true that many of todays developers include a lot of solo content, you have no basis on which to infer that all content will be solo playstyle centric.
As an example, just look at the group and raid dungeons that Blizzard put into WoW AFTER the Northrend expansion along with a token based system that favours grouping and raiding. Have people stopped doing raids and groups because WoW now has a token system attached to its random group finder? No. Why? Because there are still good incentives to do the group and raid dungeons. If anything MORE grouping is taking place because the dungeon finder system provides incentive for even solo'ers to try grouping.
Also, the fact that there HAS ALWAYS BEEN selfish and moronic groupers even before the likes of WoW only serves to prove that such behaviour isn't solely exhibited by solo'ers. Like I said before, it is purely down to the individual on how they act in an MMO. A playstyle doesn't promote it in the slightest.
With regards to Warhammers PQ's, wasn't it generally accepted that the concept was flawed because people just weren't interested in them much? Are you going to blame that purely on solo'ers too?
Lastly, if you want to be taken seriously you have to stop inferring that soloing = anti-social behaviour because that is just not true. As is evident by the countless people who predominantly solo AND are active and help out in guilds (helping with quests, farming for resources, crafting, joining in the odd group dungeon). Are they anti-social just because they predominantly solo? Nope.
If you want to group with people who aren't asshats then try to be a little more selective with who your grouping with e.g. group with guildmates. Rather than blame the whole soloing playstyle just because you have had morons in your group, try blaming the individuals and their own failings.
OK, so do you want to group because it's more fun to you, or because it's more rewarding?
Grouping should be done because that's the way the player likes to play, not because it's the only way to play.
If you don't like grouping - you shouldn't be playing a multiplayer game.
And it's not hard to come up with grouping bonuses to exp, or higher percentage drops, etc., to incentivize it. My point is that there should be no loot, NONE, that is only available through grouping.
My point is that people who want to solo should feel grateful that MMOs don't keep them in a lobby until they find someone (even one player) to group with.
In your raiding example; let's say it took those 24 people 2 hours to complete the raid and 4 of them got a piece of loot. At that rate, it would take 12 hours for each person to get a piece of that loot. So how about that instance also had a soloable option that would take the soloer, say, 15 hours to obtain one piece of loot. This offsets the hassle of setting up the raid and doesn't make soloing the 'better' option, but it allows the soloer a method to acquire the same gear.
Also, you keep forgetting that there are lots of reasons to solo in an MMO that have nothing to do with combat. Soloing in an MMO is very very different from playing a single player game. MMO's feel alive, they have tons more content, they have auction houses,
I am fine with players having access to AHs, and crafting while soloing.
they are constantly expanding and growing, etc etc. Soloing in an MMO does not equal a SP game with chat, it's much much more.
Finally, I am only asking for SOME, not all, MMOs to be this way. Is that so unreasonable? Does every MMO have to fit your definition?
Yes.
If solo games don't have enough content, then get on the devs to give you more. Some of them do provide DLC and expansions. Where's the problem?
Yeah.....Here's the thing: you don't get to decide what the definition of an MMO is. You should read that again.
MMO does not mean 'must group to advance'. You keep getting that one wrong as well.
MMO's are not doing soloers a favor by letting them play. Rather, it's the other way around, since it adds dollars to the coffers of that mMo.
Please tell me how other MMOs would be harmed if some MMOs allowed certain content soloable?
Yeah.....Here's the thing: you don't get to decide what the definition of an MMO is. You should read that again.
MMO does not mean 'must group to advance'. You keep getting that one wrong as well.
MMO's are not doing soloers a favor by letting them play. Rather, it's the other way around, since it adds dollars to the coffers of that mMo.
Please tell me how other MMOs would be harmed if some MMOs allowed certain content soloable?
That's the thing, a lot of people think they get to define what an MMO is based on what they wish it would be. This isn't just groupers, it's PvPers, it's permadeathers, etc. That way, they can declare by fiat that anyone who doesn't play the way they play is "doing it wrong".
No amount of pointing out the idiocy of said position has helped either.
I agree that it is a sort of a nonsense to play solo in a MMOG.
But there are zillions of fair reasons why gamers that, probably, would like to play in a group are often playing solo.
My story: former soldier, crippled left hand, not a youngster any longer (unfortunately), working person, German but live in Canada.
Communication even in RL is a problem for me. I am typing slowly, English is not my native language but I am using NA game clients. I do not like PvP because I cannot get rid from an idea that there is a real human behind avatar that I have to “kill” (I do not want to do that again, in a game this time, during my free time). This is like shooting from a distance: basically you do not see your target very well, than you are coming closer: blood, body parts, and horrible smell of burning human flesh… I am apologizing for being so personal, I wish nobody to eyewitness such scenes. Please, understand me.
Group play is a responsible action: I am often (at the beginning) not ready for that, I have to learn game mechanics first, find the best, more suitable class/build for me. I am often playing characters (I like them) that are not appreciated in a group (rangers, rogues). On the other hand I tried to play in a group several times but was left alone in critical situations, without any loot, I had to tank being not a tank (nobody wanted to start a risky operation). Usually group play ended for me in a complete disaster. And imagine what kind of “nice” words I heard in my address: “f-ing n00b” is the harmless among them. I love freedom and do not want to suffer from somebody’s mistakes and do not want anybody to suffer from mine. Like you I want to have fun but my fun, that’s my free time I am paying for.
Why I am playing MMOGs?
I love fantasy RPGs. I like crafting, gathering, “peaceful” professions. There are few new offline fantasy RPGs at the moment (I am comfortable only with PC). Many MMORPGs have very nice “adult” graphics (I am not a fan of cartoons, anime/manga, etc.). It is possible to play them longer than offline games, game world in MMOGs is significantly bigger. Occasionally, I am finding a suitable for me group, legion, guild (unfortunately they exist not for a long period, RL problems of adults). Mature people are very selective in making friends. That’s not an easy task: you cannot be a friend to everyone. Hence, I am often playing solo and, yes, become “wild” (acquainted to play solo).
Anyhow, solo play IMHO is not exclusively a problem of a particlar gamer but of the gaming community as a whole including group/PvP fans. Freedom of choice (group or solo or combination) is a great advantage.
"Freedom of choice (group or solo or combination) is a great advantage."
In my opinion, THAT is one of the key differences between a niche market MMO with a relatively small playerbase, and a really successful MMO. One that can cater to many playstyles without neglecting any of them to a great extent.
More options = happier playerbase = more revenue = greater popularity and life expectency.
I totally agree with you. But it is definitely better when “freedom of choice” is realized on the games level and not within one particular game. Unfortunately, for the first variant there are simply not enough games on the market. I understand that all freedoms are relative and there is no “absolute freedom”, e.g. freedom of speech exists only when a talking individual is taking full personal responsibility for the consequences of his/her words, and so on. Moreover, every social/group event starts from self limitations, sacrifice of your personal interests in the favor of group/community benefits. There are no human rights without human obligations (Ten Commandments, or others). You can call me an apologist of elite ideology but I have a strong believe that majority is not always right. There are numerous historical examples of that. Like Socrates (he-he) I am also puzzled with some features of democracy “without limits”. The strength of a community is not within its formal unity but in the ability to tolerate different views, distinct social groups and weirdo individuals (remember Michael Jackson's Ghosts) keeping core values and traditions intact (I do not support “melting pot” ideas). A really physically strong person has no need to demonstrate his strength convincing every time himself and others that he is strong, he is simply strong and able to act accordingly when it is necessary. I do not see principal differences between human rules working in game communities and RL social structures.
There is another serious problem of playing in a group that I would like to mention. I love organization, hierarchy, planning, order. Group activity (military especial) has no sense without that. Recruits (newbies) are trained for a long period before combat operations, everyone should know his function, place in a battle. There is always a huge planning work. And of cause there is always a leader/commander. Same is valid in sports (e.g. hockey, soccer). Do we have a technical possibly or at least an intention of that in MMOGs? I asked party organizers on several occasions: what should be my role/function in the group? Do we have a plan of the attack? My questions were often ignored or answers were: “Just fight!”, “LOL!” or “ROFL!”. The result was as expected - laggy chaos, no loot (I am reluctant to take a trophy when I have no idea who did the main job), and often death and minus experience points, frustration. Unfair, unclear loot distribution is another story. The work of a good team is more productive than a sum of individual efforts, but results of a bad team are less valuable than this sum (one “bad” guy can ruin efforts of the whole party).
RvR, SvS battles are even worse. I am sure that Stone Age tribal fights were better organized. Insects (bees, ants) behave cleverer when they are defending their “homes” from intruders (chemical alarm signals, coordinated actions, etc. see Discovery channel).
I am sorry but this is not a group activity this is a farce imitation of it. Mob (simple sum of folks) is not identical to civilized group of socially mature and active individuals. I do not exclude that there are such groups in MMOGs, but they are not dominating and responsible for games social atmosphere. Quite on the contrary aggressive gangs of badly educated kids are leading in the world of MMOs. I must admit that there might be serious technical (programming, networking) limitations, but why there are no discussions about these organization issues with game developers that we need some time before a battle for organization, establishing of hierarchy, selecting generals (there is no time for that during the battle). Some sort of training grounds/camps should be designed for guilds/legions. As in the army many things should be mandatory (preprogrammed). I often hear complains “I lost today because I played with total n00bs”. But what you did to educate these people? It is a shame for a RL officer/leader to say that. It is his duty (professional obligation, value, corporative pride if you will) to teach his soldiers, be responsible for their combat results and lives. Do hardcore group players-leaders have same mentality? Unfortunately, more or less coordinated actions I have seen only in groups of “bad” guys. I am talking about such negative IMHO types of group behavior like ganking, griefing and rifting (unfair use of opponent’s summoning areas).
Another reason: visual impression. This is a video game at the end. Massive/group battles are not only more laggy but also graphically messy. A good example is a boss battle in WoW. MMOGs usually do not have NPC/PC collision detection. So, standing somewhere hidden in dragon’s ass and waving your sword what you see on the screen? Numerous particle effects, chaos of players’ name labels…
Please, understand me correctly: I am not defending soloers, I want to understand WHY some players prefer to play solo, be “alone in a crowd”. Sorry for the walls of text, I am tired of myself either. It is better just to enjoy a game, without digging in “whys”. Some preferences (why blondines, not brunettes..) simply has no rational explanation.
It would seem absurd to take solo play out of the current style of games... So the real answer is to make games that are actually based around group play. It's not impossible, and it wouldn't be a terrible thing. I ask a question to players who like playing alone. Is it because you actually like playing alone, or because you like having total control over what you're doing? Because that's what most solo players seem to dislike. They don't like being at the mercy of idiots, and don't like waiting around. Design a game to avoid this problem, and there could really be a game for everyone.
Important facts: 1. Free to Play games are poorly made. 2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals. 3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE. 4. Community is more important than you think.
It would seem absurd to take solo play out of the current style of games... So the real answer is to make games that are actually based around group play. It's not impossible, and it wouldn't be a terrible thing. I ask a question to players who like playing alone. Is it because you actually like playing alone, or because you like having total control over what you're doing? Because that's what most solo players seem to dislike. They don't like being at the mercy of idiots, and don't like waiting around. Design a game to avoid this problem, and there could really be a game for everyone.
There's a myriad of reason why anyone would want to solo. Some solo'ers may just want a little piece and quiet (after all, who doesn't), some solo'ers don't have the necessary time to dedicate to a group and therefore would feel guilty if they had to leave it early, whereas other solo'ers experiences may have been tainted by being in groups in the past. Also remember that not all solo'ers actually do play solo in an MMO 100% of the time. Its just a matter of preference at the time.
In general solo'ers don't have much of a problem sharing a gameworld with groupers, probably because they view grouping as an additional option for when they might want it. And yet, if you believe the reactions in these kind of threads, certain group'ers seem to look upon soloing as some kind of infectious disease that needs to be irradicated because of fear of destroying their chosen form of entertainment. Which is complete rubbish.
The point is that a game DOESN'T have to be designed to deal with "this problem", because there isn't actually a problem to solve. Games already exist which prove that multiple playstyles CAN co-exist in the same game. These games already offer different playstyles decent rewards for the effort that they put in to get them. Its only a minority of group'ers that actually has a problem with the situation of co-habitation with solo'ers, the activities provided to the playstyles and their rewards. Which gives everyone else the impression that those particular group'ers are selfish and elitist.
The answer to the equation is a matter of providing enough incentives for any particular player to try ALL playstyles but NOT be necessarily forced to try all playstyles. In short: giving the player a choice, and more importantly, the reason to choose. Enforced grouping has been proven time and time again to be a bad mechanic in terms of invigorating popularity for an MMO. It restricts gameplay and freedom of choice. Plus, enforced grouping throughout an MMO only provides an environment for a select playstyle, thus restricting the potential popularity of that product for the sake of restriction and no other reason. I'm not suggesting that every activity in every MMO should be solo'able, but I'm also not saying that every activity or decent loot item can only be completed and won in a group. There are ways and means of providing incentives.
More choice with regards to the activities and playstyles in the game environment is the key to success.
It would seem absurd to take solo play out of the current style of games... So the real answer is to make games that are actually based around group play. It's not impossible, and it wouldn't be a terrible thing. I ask a question to players who like playing alone. Is it because you actually like playing alone, or because you like having total control over what you're doing? Because that's what most solo players seem to dislike. They don't like being at the mercy of idiots, and don't like waiting around. Design a game to avoid this problem, and there could really be a game for everyone.
How can you design a game around the problem of idiots when the majority of people playing any given game are idiots? I hate playing in groups because pretty much every group I've ever been in has been full of people who want to rush from one mob to the next, killing as fast as they can. I want to take my time, loot everything and make sure I entirely clear every dungeon completely. I can't do that in a group because I have yet to run into anyone who plays like I do. I don't care about XP, I care about being thorough.
The only way to make a game that would avoid the problems I experience is to make a game that only appeals to a handful of people, which would immediately put said game out of business.
Therefore, for that reason and others, I play solo.
This is actually fairly simple. If an MMO expects to make money it has to appeal to both to some degree. Group only not only turns away a lot of solo players but it also turns off a lot of group players because most gamers at some point just want a day to just solo and not worry about lfg or anything.
If an MMO is solo only it not only turns away group players but also many solo players because at some point you will eventually want to group with some friends or pug it up.
This has been proven to be true in my experience. If an MMO wants to truly do well it must cater to Solo, Group, large group, Small Group and Duo players because most of us are all of the above.
This is actually fairly simple. If an MMO expects to make money it has to appeal to both to some degree. Group only not only turns away a lot of solo players but it also turns off a lot of group players because most gamers at some point just want a day to just solo and not worry about lfg or anything.
If an MMO is solo only it not only turns away group players but also many solo players because at some point you will eventually want to group with some friends or pug it up.
This has been proven to be true in my experience. If an MMO wants to truly do well it must cater to Solo, Group, large group, Small Group and Duo players because most of us are all of the above.
You'd think it would be this simple but there's something you're over-looking: The "groupers" will simply not accept this. They will not accept a game that doesn't force/coerce/cajole/require others to play with them. If the game doesn't punish people for playing solo, they just won't be happy. If someone can obtain working solo, no matter how long or how hard they have to work, the same thing that they can obtain in a group, it just won't be fair to them.
For the life of me, I cannot remember if I posted in this thread or one of the other threads on group/solo/etc play.
For many folks, they have realized that a MMORPG is cheaper than buying SPRPGs they finish in a weekend. They may have a few friends, and they may be pretty casual about their progression. Then again, you might have the solo person that wants to rush to the end as well...for whatever reason.
I tend to prefer the solo thing myself, mainly from bad experiences with guilds - too many people tend to have hissyfits, and all that (part of that whole you would not talk to somebody like that in person but you think it is okay online - you just want to stand on some people's faces...hard).
At the same time, I accept that as a single player (unless I am pugging something, and even then) - that I am not going to be able to do everything that a group can do - I will not be able to get certain items nor visit certain areas. I think that if more solo players could stop whining about wanting to see everything and do everything by themselves, most of us would all get along better... it would be easier for designers to have both solo and group content - and we would not need so many threads on the subject, eh?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
This is actually fairly simple. If an MMO expects to make money it has to appeal to both to some degree. Group only not only turns away a lot of solo players but it also turns off a lot of group players because most gamers at some point just want a day to just solo and not worry about lfg or anything.
If an MMO is solo only it not only turns away group players but also many solo players because at some point you will eventually want to group with some friends or pug it up.
This has been proven to be true in my experience. If an MMO wants to truly do well it must cater to Solo, Group, large group, Small Group and Duo players because most of us are all of the above.
You'd think it would be this simple but there's something you're over-looking: The "groupers" will simply not accept this. They will not accept a game that doesn't force/coerce/cajole/require others to play with them. If the game doesn't punish people for playing solo, they just won't be happy. If someone can obtain working solo, no matter how long or how hard they have to work, the same thing that they can obtain in a group, it just won't be fair to them.
Oh no I understand that, the problem is it doesn't change that it is that simple. Forced grouping games tend to have forums filled with complaints about lack of players to group with as well as complaints about lfg for hours lol. Weather they wish to accept it or not is irrelevant, it's just the way it is. Even FFXI had to become more solo friendly to survive. It's just how it is lol.
They can be stuborn and continue to complain about people not playing their game or they can accept the facts, either way it simply won't change things. It is what it is lol.
This is actually fairly simple. If an MMO expects to make money it has to appeal to both to some degree. Group only not only turns away a lot of solo players but it also turns off a lot of group players because most gamers at some point just want a day to just solo and not worry about lfg or anything.
If an MMO is solo only it not only turns away group players but also many solo players because at some point you will eventually want to group with some friends or pug it up.
This has been proven to be true in my experience. If an MMO wants to truly do well it must cater to Solo, Group, large group, Small Group and Duo players because most of us are all of the above.
You'd think it would be this simple but there's something you're over-looking: The "groupers" will simply not accept this. They will not accept a game that doesn't force/coerce/cajole/require others to play with them. If the game doesn't punish people for playing solo, they just won't be happy. If someone can obtain working solo, no matter how long or how hard they have to work, the same thing that they can obtain in a group, it just won't be fair to them.
Oh no I understand that, the problem is it doesn't change that it is that simple. Forced grouping games tend to have forums filled with complaints about lack of players to group with as well as complaints about lfg for hours lol. Weather they wish to accept it or not is irrelevant, it's just the way it is. Even FFXI had to become more solo friendly to survive. It's just how it is lol.
They can be stuborn and continue to complain about people not playing their game or they can accept the facts, either way it simply won't change things. It is what it is lol.
lol just because you have reality and common sense on your side..
i think the players who complain about wanting "forced"grouping are simply putting to much emphasis on these games being their primary social lives. nobody else wins in a "forced " group environment. I like to group when my friends are on, but what if they aren't. what if they are too many levels ahead of me do to schedualling? i then would have to "pug" right? i hate "pugging" groups. i hate dealing with that one player who demands it's "his way or no way". I hate people who may know a lot about the game, but dont really know how to play their character's role in the group. i hate the poutty babies who drop group mid raid because they didnt win the greed role on loot. i hate the guy who need roles on everything. i like haveing the option to run solo when i have to an not have to kill 60,000 "boars" to gain half a level. i quit aion at level 42 because i got so sick of being forced to group to finish any campaign quests i had, and the soloable repeatables i had left weren't moving my xp bar in any noticable way.. just my opinion
Sadly, after reading almost all this thread on Grouping vs. Soloing I have not gain any insight into the point of this thread. I have to say that all MMOs have a linear story line that pushes players toward collaborative playing experience by forcing players to group to achieve a goal. We see this in real world applications, where groups are able to achieve feats that individuals could not possible achieve, having the right classes in a group makes all the difference between a successful group and a wipeout.
Grouping and soloing are just playing styles that one decides how they want to experience the game, but that really does not dedicate how developers develop game content for the game. Often with updates and expansions they give into both playing styles by providing both grouping and solo content. It’s your money, it’s your choice to play in groups or solo the game on your own. Shouldn’t this be a discussion about the effectiveness of grouping vs. soloing content to obtain a goal?
Forced group activity resembles me socialism (bad comparison, I know, sorry). But all my nature rebels against it. Everybody has a right of “living on my own”, “do it my way”.
But this is “lyrics”. The problem is that group activity is a very responsible action. A group-leader has additional job: he/she should be responsible for training/instructing newbies, protecting them in difficult situations, etc. even “dying” for them. It is difficult to work with people, especially when you have no idea who they are, and not able to select them. A group member should always consider interests of other party members and group as unit and so on. Can groupers give a warranty that this works always, that they are doing their best for that, does a particular game have technical possibilities for descent grouping?
Otherwise this not a group but a sum of selfish individuals formally and temporarily engaged in a common action, this is a bad parody, imitation, farce. A “group” that is not a group at all.
I am really surprised that there are gamers who are so self-confident that are able responsibly to accept the burden of group play, insist on forced grouping as a single and obligatory for everybody solution.
Definitely MMOs are about group activity, but what we often have in a real game, unfortunately, cannot be called a “group”.
Aoelis1973, as far as I understand, the buzz is about game design, what sort or feedback for game developers we can provide, what is an “ideal” MMO: exclusively group orientated or with solo options. I cannot agree with you that in RL a group is always more efficient than an individual or equivalent sum of individuals. I have eyewitnessed that disorganized group was less efficient than one worker, one mistake of one group member can easily zero efforts of a whole team. In my RL occupation Europeans (I worked in many different countries) are usually working as team, in NA one man – one project. I tried once to transfer my European background in US, this ended in a total mess. You cannot adopt even professionals to work in a team in one day. A group should be carefully trained for a long period, people should have specific mentality, etc.
“Shouldn’t this be a discussion about the effectiveness of grouping vs. soloing content to obtain a goal?”
And what goal is? Enjoy game play? Beat a certain boss?
Effectiveness. Gaming is not only about effectiveness, but about fun, and mainly about fun IMHO. But under fun, people understand very different things. How to create an efficient group is another story.
Comments
Oh, I know it's an uphill battle, but there are players out there who do want group-focused games.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Lol. Good luck on using such a blinkered attitude in this current economic climate. I'm sure such an MMO will be really successful and popular from the outset. I'm sure the investors will love it when the devs have to explain that they won't be seeing a return on their investment any time soon. Of course, that's IF the MMO has investors and got past launch.
Your argument is like proposing an immediate ban of cars on roads just to get people to use buses / trains. Given the society we live in, such extremes are just not practical and financially suicidal.
But I suppose that rather than blaming the devs laziness for failing to provide incentives and activities for a particular players own particular playstyle, its easier to just place the blame on a different playstyle altogether.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Forced grouping is a failed option. Besides you don't have to group to have player interaction. Ultima Online really didn't have grouping in the same way as some mmos do now. People helped each other out because we wanted to not because other people were our best chance at getting epic loot. Grouping is fine if people do more than stand around killing endless mobs for hour upon hour. Why should people waste their time grouping if the other group members are just using them to get better loot. Bring back people with some common decency not afriad to actually say more than hi in a group and grouping will come back by itself. Rading and the loot it brings to the games killed the social aspect of grouping and turned the vast majoirty into elitist loot whores with no sense of community.
Precisely. There is no need to FORCE any playstyle on an entire MMO playerbase.
More options = happier playbase.
I'm all for having a decent community in an MMO. But enforcing grouping or raiding in favour of any other activity is not the Golden Ticket that some are making it sound to be.
Games don't force people to act like morons, the individuals have to have that disposition from the start.
What makes me chuckle is that the so-called advocates of "old school" grouping make it sound like we live in a world were everyones door is open and everyone warmly greets complete strangers with open arms and that solo play turns these people into complete anti-social morons. Its complete nonsense. Just take a look at the population in a train. None of them talk to each other.
It saddens me a bit when people refuse to compromise, and can only see things in black and white. Because such individuals are so blinkered by their hatred of any options that differ to their own they must go through life very angry.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Is pandering to soloers going to bring back players with common decency and a sense of community?
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
1) So if you agree that you don't have to group in order to interact in a multiplayer environment, why are you so dead set against soloing in MMO's?
2) I bet those PK'ers weren't alone either, did they group up with others in order to be complete idiots perhaps?
3) So, you are advocating favouring a particular playstyle even though its not YOUR playstyle. Why can't you appreciate other playstyles inhabiting the same game too?
Please stop blaming solo'ers for the decline in social standards in MMO's. Seriously, that is complete nonsense. I know very decent solo'ers, and I have met complete idiots who inhabit groups. And they are idiots for the same reasons as someone could be an idiot in a solo situation. Soloing doesn't promote selfishness or moronic behaviour, such behaviour is purely down to the individual. The player has to have that disposition in the first place. Remember how groups used to kill steal in MMO's before WoW? I certainly do. Was griefing prevelant in MMO's before WoW? Yep.
The point is that the decline in social standards in MMO's is a product of the times. It mirrors the decline in social standards in the real world. Hence the blame is placed solely on the individual and their disposition, not necessarily the environment that they inhabit.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Very true.
What anti-soloing mechanics do is discourage that anti-social player from playing the game in the first place.
If someone can't get one other player to group with him, then he's probably not fit for an MMO.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Yet again, you are showing that you have a very blinkered viewpoint about groupers and soloers. It's not as black and white and you make it sound. Implying that soloing is the root of all that is bad in regards to social standards in MMOs is just plain laughable. The thousands of asshat groupers (people who enjoy grouping over soloing) just as there are decent solo'ers out there prove that fact. Just because your experiences have been tainted by moronic and selfish behaviour exhibited by particular individuals doesn't immediately mean that everyone of a same playstyle is the same.
That's comparable to being racist based on the grounds that you met one person of a particular race who was an idiot. Look up the defintion for the term "bigot" and you may find it closely matches your prejudice.
Your predictions in regards to content in MMO's are also flawed too. MMO devs develop content to suit the playerbase and whilst it is true that many of todays developers include a lot of solo content, you have no basis on which to infer that all content will be solo playstyle centric.
As an example, just look at the group and raid dungeons that Blizzard put into WoW AFTER the Northrend expansion along with a token based system that favours grouping and raiding. Have people stopped doing raids and groups because WoW now has a token system attached to its random group finder? No. Why? Because there are still good incentives to do the group and raid dungeons. If anything MORE grouping is taking place because the dungeon finder system provides incentive for even solo'ers to try grouping.
Also, the fact that there HAS ALWAYS BEEN selfish and moronic groupers even before the likes of WoW only serves to prove that such behaviour isn't solely exhibited by solo'ers. Like I said before, it is purely down to the individual on how they act in an MMO. A playstyle doesn't promote it in the slightest.
With regards to Warhammers PQ's, wasn't it generally accepted that the concept was flawed because people just weren't interested in them much? Are you going to blame that purely on solo'ers too?
Lastly, if you want to be taken seriously you have to stop inferring that soloing = anti-social behaviour because that is just not true. As is evident by the countless people who predominantly solo AND are active and help out in guilds (helping with quests, farming for resources, crafting, joining in the odd group dungeon). Are they anti-social just because they predominantly solo? Nope.
If you want to group with people who aren't asshats then try to be a little more selective with who your grouping with e.g. group with guildmates. Rather than blame the whole soloing playstyle just because you have had morons in your group, try blaming the individuals and their own failings.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
Yeah.....Here's the thing: you don't get to decide what the definition of an MMO is. You should read that again.
MMO does not mean 'must group to advance'. You keep getting that one wrong as well.
MMO's are not doing soloers a favor by letting them play. Rather, it's the other way around, since it adds dollars to the coffers of that mMo.
Please tell me how other MMOs would be harmed if some MMOs allowed certain content soloable?
That's the thing, a lot of people think they get to define what an MMO is based on what they wish it would be. This isn't just groupers, it's PvPers, it's permadeathers, etc. That way, they can declare by fiat that anyone who doesn't play the way they play is "doing it wrong".
No amount of pointing out the idiocy of said position has helped either.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I agree that it is a sort of a nonsense to play solo in a MMOG.
But there are zillions of fair reasons why gamers that, probably, would like to play in a group are often playing solo.
My story: former soldier, crippled left hand, not a youngster any longer (unfortunately), working person, German but live in Canada.
Communication even in RL is a problem for me. I am typing slowly, English is not my native language but I am using NA game clients. I do not like PvP because I cannot get rid from an idea that there is a real human behind avatar that I have to “kill” (I do not want to do that again, in a game this time, during my free time). This is like shooting from a distance: basically you do not see your target very well, than you are coming closer: blood, body parts, and horrible smell of burning human flesh… I am apologizing for being so personal, I wish nobody to eyewitness such scenes. Please, understand me.
Group play is a responsible action: I am often (at the beginning) not ready for that, I have to learn game mechanics first, find the best, more suitable class/build for me. I am often playing characters (I like them) that are not appreciated in a group (rangers, rogues). On the other hand I tried to play in a group several times but was left alone in critical situations, without any loot, I had to tank being not a tank (nobody wanted to start a risky operation). Usually group play ended for me in a complete disaster. And imagine what kind of “nice” words I heard in my address: “f-ing n00b” is the harmless among them. I love freedom and do not want to suffer from somebody’s mistakes and do not want anybody to suffer from mine. Like you I want to have fun but my fun, that’s my free time I am paying for.
Why I am playing MMOGs?
I love fantasy RPGs. I like crafting, gathering, “peaceful” professions. There are few new offline fantasy RPGs at the moment (I am comfortable only with PC). Many MMORPGs have very nice “adult” graphics (I am not a fan of cartoons, anime/manga, etc.). It is possible to play them longer than offline games, game world in MMOGs is significantly bigger. Occasionally, I am finding a suitable for me group, legion, guild (unfortunately they exist not for a long period, RL problems of adults). Mature people are very selective in making friends. That’s not an easy task: you cannot be a friend to everyone. Hence, I am often playing solo and, yes, become “wild” (acquainted to play solo).
Anyhow, solo play IMHO is not exclusively a problem of a particlar gamer but of the gaming community as a whole including group/PvP fans. Freedom of choice (group or solo or combination) is a great advantage.
"Freedom of choice (group or solo or combination) is a great advantage."
In my opinion, THAT is one of the key differences between a niche market MMO with a relatively small playerbase, and a really successful MMO. One that can cater to many playstyles without neglecting any of them to a great extent.
More options = happier playerbase = more revenue = greater popularity and life expectency.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
I totally agree with you. But it is definitely better when “freedom of choice” is realized on the games level and not within one particular game. Unfortunately, for the first variant there are simply not enough games on the market. I understand that all freedoms are relative and there is no “absolute freedom”, e.g. freedom of speech exists only when a talking individual is taking full personal responsibility for the consequences of his/her words, and so on. Moreover, every social/group event starts from self limitations, sacrifice of your personal interests in the favor of group/community benefits. There are no human rights without human obligations (Ten Commandments, or others). You can call me an apologist of elite ideology but I have a strong believe that majority is not always right. There are numerous historical examples of that. Like Socrates (he-he) I am also puzzled with some features of democracy “without limits”. The strength of a community is not within its formal unity but in the ability to tolerate different views, distinct social groups and weirdo individuals (remember Michael Jackson's Ghosts) keeping core values and traditions intact (I do not support “melting pot” ideas). A really physically strong person has no need to demonstrate his strength convincing every time himself and others that he is strong, he is simply strong and able to act accordingly when it is necessary. I do not see principal differences between human rules working in game communities and RL social structures.
There is another serious problem of playing in a group that I would like to mention. I love organization, hierarchy, planning, order. Group activity (military especial) has no sense without that. Recruits (newbies) are trained for a long period before combat operations, everyone should know his function, place in a battle. There is always a huge planning work. And of cause there is always a leader/commander. Same is valid in sports (e.g. hockey, soccer). Do we have a technical possibly or at least an intention of that in MMOGs? I asked party organizers on several occasions: what should be my role/function in the group? Do we have a plan of the attack? My questions were often ignored or answers were: “Just fight!”, “LOL!” or “ROFL!”. The result was as expected - laggy chaos, no loot (I am reluctant to take a trophy when I have no idea who did the main job), and often death and minus experience points, frustration. Unfair, unclear loot distribution is another story. The work of a good team is more productive than a sum of individual efforts, but results of a bad team are less valuable than this sum (one “bad” guy can ruin efforts of the whole party).
RvR, SvS battles are even worse. I am sure that Stone Age tribal fights were better organized. Insects (bees, ants) behave cleverer when they are defending their “homes” from intruders (chemical alarm signals, coordinated actions, etc. see Discovery channel).
I am sorry but this is not a group activity this is a farce imitation of it. Mob (simple sum of folks) is not identical to civilized group of socially mature and active individuals. I do not exclude that there are such groups in MMOGs, but they are not dominating and responsible for games social atmosphere. Quite on the contrary aggressive gangs of badly educated kids are leading in the world of MMOs. I must admit that there might be serious technical (programming, networking) limitations, but why there are no discussions about these organization issues with game developers that we need some time before a battle for organization, establishing of hierarchy, selecting generals (there is no time for that during the battle). Some sort of training grounds/camps should be designed for guilds/legions. As in the army many things should be mandatory (preprogrammed). I often hear complains “I lost today because I played with total n00bs”. But what you did to educate these people? It is a shame for a RL officer/leader to say that. It is his duty (professional obligation, value, corporative pride if you will) to teach his soldiers, be responsible for their combat results and lives. Do hardcore group players-leaders have same mentality? Unfortunately, more or less coordinated actions I have seen only in groups of “bad” guys. I am talking about such negative IMHO types of group behavior like ganking, griefing and rifting (unfair use of opponent’s summoning areas).
Another reason: visual impression. This is a video game at the end. Massive/group battles are not only more laggy but also graphically messy. A good example is a boss battle in WoW. MMOGs usually do not have NPC/PC collision detection. So, standing somewhere hidden in dragon’s ass and waving your sword what you see on the screen? Numerous particle effects, chaos of players’ name labels…
Please, understand me correctly: I am not defending soloers, I want to understand WHY some players prefer to play solo, be “alone in a crowd”. Sorry for the walls of text, I am tired of myself either. It is better just to enjoy a game, without digging in “whys”. Some preferences (why blondines, not brunettes..) simply has no rational explanation.
It would seem absurd to take solo play out of the current style of games... So the real answer is to make games that are actually based around group play. It's not impossible, and it wouldn't be a terrible thing. I ask a question to players who like playing alone. Is it because you actually like playing alone, or because you like having total control over what you're doing? Because that's what most solo players seem to dislike. They don't like being at the mercy of idiots, and don't like waiting around. Design a game to avoid this problem, and there could really be a game for everyone.
Important facts:
1. Free to Play games are poorly made.
2. Casuals are not all idiots, but idiots call themselves casuals.
3. Great solo and group content are not mutually exclusive, but they suffer when one is shoved into the mold of the other. The same is true of PvP and PvE.
4. Community is more important than you think.
There's a myriad of reason why anyone would want to solo. Some solo'ers may just want a little piece and quiet (after all, who doesn't), some solo'ers don't have the necessary time to dedicate to a group and therefore would feel guilty if they had to leave it early, whereas other solo'ers experiences may have been tainted by being in groups in the past. Also remember that not all solo'ers actually do play solo in an MMO 100% of the time. Its just a matter of preference at the time.
In general solo'ers don't have much of a problem sharing a gameworld with groupers, probably because they view grouping as an additional option for when they might want it. And yet, if you believe the reactions in these kind of threads, certain group'ers seem to look upon soloing as some kind of infectious disease that needs to be irradicated because of fear of destroying their chosen form of entertainment. Which is complete rubbish.
The point is that a game DOESN'T have to be designed to deal with "this problem", because there isn't actually a problem to solve. Games already exist which prove that multiple playstyles CAN co-exist in the same game. These games already offer different playstyles decent rewards for the effort that they put in to get them. Its only a minority of group'ers that actually has a problem with the situation of co-habitation with solo'ers, the activities provided to the playstyles and their rewards. Which gives everyone else the impression that those particular group'ers are selfish and elitist.
The answer to the equation is a matter of providing enough incentives for any particular player to try ALL playstyles but NOT be necessarily forced to try all playstyles. In short: giving the player a choice, and more importantly, the reason to choose. Enforced grouping has been proven time and time again to be a bad mechanic in terms of invigorating popularity for an MMO. It restricts gameplay and freedom of choice. Plus, enforced grouping throughout an MMO only provides an environment for a select playstyle, thus restricting the potential popularity of that product for the sake of restriction and no other reason. I'm not suggesting that every activity in every MMO should be solo'able, but I'm also not saying that every activity or decent loot item can only be completed and won in a group. There are ways and means of providing incentives.
More choice with regards to the activities and playstyles in the game environment is the key to success.
Top 10 Most Misused Words in MMO's
How can you design a game around the problem of idiots when the majority of people playing any given game are idiots? I hate playing in groups because pretty much every group I've ever been in has been full of people who want to rush from one mob to the next, killing as fast as they can. I want to take my time, loot everything and make sure I entirely clear every dungeon completely. I can't do that in a group because I have yet to run into anyone who plays like I do. I don't care about XP, I care about being thorough.
The only way to make a game that would avoid the problems I experience is to make a game that only appeals to a handful of people, which would immediately put said game out of business.
Therefore, for that reason and others, I play solo.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
This is actually fairly simple. If an MMO expects to make money it has to appeal to both to some degree. Group only not only turns away a lot of solo players but it also turns off a lot of group players because most gamers at some point just want a day to just solo and not worry about lfg or anything.
If an MMO is solo only it not only turns away group players but also many solo players because at some point you will eventually want to group with some friends or pug it up.
This has been proven to be true in my experience. If an MMO wants to truly do well it must cater to Solo, Group, large group, Small Group and Duo players because most of us are all of the above.
You'd think it would be this simple but there's something you're over-looking: The "groupers" will simply not accept this. They will not accept a game that doesn't force/coerce/cajole/require others to play with them. If the game doesn't punish people for playing solo, they just won't be happy. If someone can obtain working solo, no matter how long or how hard they have to work, the same thing that they can obtain in a group, it just won't be fair to them.
For the life of me, I cannot remember if I posted in this thread or one of the other threads on group/solo/etc play.
For many folks, they have realized that a MMORPG is cheaper than buying SPRPGs they finish in a weekend. They may have a few friends, and they may be pretty casual about their progression. Then again, you might have the solo person that wants to rush to the end as well...for whatever reason.
I tend to prefer the solo thing myself, mainly from bad experiences with guilds - too many people tend to have hissyfits, and all that (part of that whole you would not talk to somebody like that in person but you think it is okay online - you just want to stand on some people's faces...hard).
At the same time, I accept that as a single player (unless I am pugging something, and even then) - that I am not going to be able to do everything that a group can do - I will not be able to get certain items nor visit certain areas. I think that if more solo players could stop whining about wanting to see everything and do everything by themselves, most of us would all get along better... it would be easier for designers to have both solo and group content - and we would not need so many threads on the subject, eh?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Oh no I understand that, the problem is it doesn't change that it is that simple. Forced grouping games tend to have forums filled with complaints about lack of players to group with as well as complaints about lfg for hours lol. Weather they wish to accept it or not is irrelevant, it's just the way it is. Even FFXI had to become more solo friendly to survive. It's just how it is lol.
They can be stuborn and continue to complain about people not playing their game or they can accept the facts, either way it simply won't change things. It is what it is lol.
lol just because you have reality and common sense on your side..
i think the players who complain about wanting "forced"grouping are simply putting to much emphasis on these games being their primary social lives. nobody else wins in a "forced " group environment. I like to group when my friends are on, but what if they aren't. what if they are too many levels ahead of me do to schedualling? i then would have to "pug" right? i hate "pugging" groups. i hate dealing with that one player who demands it's "his way or no way". I hate people who may know a lot about the game, but dont really know how to play their character's role in the group. i hate the poutty babies who drop group mid raid because they didnt win the greed role on loot. i hate the guy who need roles on everything. i like haveing the option to run solo when i have to an not have to kill 60,000 "boars" to gain half a level. i quit aion at level 42 because i got so sick of being forced to group to finish any campaign quests i had, and the soloable repeatables i had left weren't moving my xp bar in any noticable way.. just my opinion
Sadly, after reading almost all this thread on Grouping vs. Soloing I have not gain any insight into the point of this thread. I have to say that all MMOs have a linear story line that pushes players toward collaborative playing experience by forcing players to group to achieve a goal. We see this in real world applications, where groups are able to achieve feats that individuals could not possible achieve, having the right classes in a group makes all the difference between a successful group and a wipeout.
Grouping and soloing are just playing styles that one decides how they want to experience the game, but that really does not dedicate how developers develop game content for the game. Often with updates and expansions they give into both playing styles by providing both grouping and solo content. It’s your money, it’s your choice to play in groups or solo the game on your own. Shouldn’t this be a discussion about the effectiveness of grouping vs. soloing content to obtain a goal?
Forced group activity resembles me socialism (bad comparison, I know, sorry). But all my nature rebels against it. Everybody has a right of “living on my own”, “do it my way”.
But this is “lyrics”. The problem is that group activity is a very responsible action. A group-leader has additional job: he/she should be responsible for training/instructing newbies, protecting them in difficult situations, etc. even “dying” for them. It is difficult to work with people, especially when you have no idea who they are, and not able to select them. A group member should always consider interests of other party members and group as unit and so on. Can groupers give a warranty that this works always, that they are doing their best for that, does a particular game have technical possibilities for descent grouping?
Otherwise this not a group but a sum of selfish individuals formally and temporarily engaged in a common action, this is a bad parody, imitation, farce. A “group” that is not a group at all.
I am really surprised that there are gamers who are so self-confident that are able responsibly to accept the burden of group play, insist on forced grouping as a single and obligatory for everybody solution.
Definitely MMOs are about group activity, but what we often have in a real game, unfortunately, cannot be called a “group”.
Aoelis1973, as far as I understand, the buzz is about game design, what sort or feedback for game developers we can provide, what is an “ideal” MMO: exclusively group orientated or with solo options. I cannot agree with you that in RL a group is always more efficient than an individual or equivalent sum of individuals. I have eyewitnessed that disorganized group was less efficient than one worker, one mistake of one group member can easily zero efforts of a whole team. In my RL occupation Europeans (I worked in many different countries) are usually working as team, in NA one man – one project. I tried once to transfer my European background in US, this ended in a total mess. You cannot adopt even professionals to work in a team in one day. A group should be carefully trained for a long period, people should have specific mentality, etc.
“Shouldn’t this be a discussion about the effectiveness of grouping vs. soloing content to obtain a goal?”
And what goal is? Enjoy game play? Beat a certain boss?
Effectiveness. Gaming is not only about effectiveness, but about fun, and mainly about fun IMHO. But under fun, people understand very different things. How to create an efficient group is another story.