I'm sure more of the solo players would agree to group play if it was like you describe it in all games rodrigo. Getting a group in a few min so you can actually play the game, not wait around.
Im sorry, but am i really seeing a lot of people talking about "forced grouping" and defending features like "solo-friendly"?
Am i in the correct forum?
Isnt this a website about MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Or are we paying 15$ a month so dev's can hold up a server for us to, you know... solo.
Dragon age may be MMO actually, it does even have a LOGIN SCREEN, that makes it an MMO doesnt it?
You solo all your way, kill a few dragons, there you go, it even has voices! Dude, that is awesome.
"omg, 5 hours waiting for a group" , come on, grow up, what have you been playing? wow?
Typical login at CoH:
00:30 - Suscefull Login
00:31 - Joined LFG system
00:31:32 - Me and 7 guys (you know, "the other players") crushing random baddies.
should happen to all MMO's, not only CoH, FFXI or WAR.
CoH is my favortie MMO; I've been playing since launch, and one of the reasons is because there is very little content that requires a group to experience. With the ability to set mission difficulty and scaling, it is the most solo-friendly MMO I've ever played. In fact, it allows me something as a soloer that I've never seen in even one other MMO ever: I can acquire the best loot in the game without ever once being required to group to do so.
Grouping should ALWAYS been an option, and never a requirement to experience content. I love CoH for a zillion reasons, but one of my complaints about it is the 2% of group-required content it has, I wish it were soloable too.
Does this mean I never group when playing it? Hell, no. Grouping is a blast in that game, and it doesn't require any specific tank/healer setup, any team makeup can do fine. But I group because I WANT to, not because it's required.
I can't think of any MMORPG that does single player content better than top echelon single player RPGs so when I log in to play I am doing so to interact with other players. The only reason solo content needs to exist is to give something to pass the time while getting a group together.
On the other hand, random grouping can also be a pain. I think a good solution is zone wide quests where you are not necesserily grouping with other players directly but you need other players to complete the quest either because it is timed or too difficult to complete alone. Developers would need to temper these quests based on player population.
I can't think of any MMORPG that does single player content better than top echelon single player RPGs so when I log in to play I am doing so to interact with other players. The only reason solo content needs to exist is to give something to pass the time while getting a group together.
On the other hand, random grouping can also be a pain. I think a good solution is zone wide quests where you are not necesserily grouping with other players directly but you need other players to complete the quest either because it is timed or too difficult to complete alone. Developers would need to temper these quests based on player population.
In your opinion & for YOU. Don't know why it's so hard people to grasp the concept that not everyone plays for the same reasons that you do. Theres quite a few reasons to play MMOs other than to group up for PVE content. That happens to be your preferrrence, but it does not apply to everyone, otherwise games wouldn't be designed the way they are, and we wouldnt even be having this discussion. Either way, there are games which cater to 1 or the other, and game sthat cater to both at the same time. Wtf does it matter? Play one of the game sthat suits your preferred style of play and stick with it. Don't know why everyone is hellbent on changing a game, which isn't the style they like, into a game that is what they like. If it's not what you want, move on to the next game and stop trying to make everyone play the same as you and insisting that designers make every game the same so that everyone is interested in all of them. Each game has their crowd that they try to get in, they dont all have to please everyone in the world.
As for the 2nd half of what you said. That's why a lot of us are quickly becoming excited about Guild Wars 2 and the steps that they are taking to make it a dynamic, changing world where people actually want to get together and do things that are impacting the entire world, rather than trying to force people to group up & grind Quest/Raid #7395935934595 for a 2% chance of getting 1 of several pieces of gear you need to get.
Reading alot of this same stuff begs the same question. Why pay $15 a month to play a game like a single-player game with a lobby system.
Because not grouping with people for pve does not = a single player game with a lobby. As i mentione din the post above yours, there are a lot of reason to be playing MMOs, we all have our own, and yours is not everyones reason. It can also vary from game to game. You may play 1 MMO for a particular reason, and another for a way different reason.
Just to name a few:
Being a crafter and selling your crafts to other players
Trading with other players & playing with the AH for the economic aspects
PvP
Those 3, and many more, are reasons why someone might play an MMO, and neither of those requires grouping of any form at any time, it can all be done solo, and is not available in single player games. Personally, i got into MMOs for the PvP, i didnt get into it to make friends and socialize. Sure, ive made a few great friends along the way, but when i login to a game i dont feel like "OMG i have no friends, i gotta go make some new ones to group with". If i happen to get in a group with someone, or even just through talking in chat, and get a friend out of it cool, if not, just 1 more person for me to take on in the PvP field.
If it's a non-pvp game, that's done well and is actually fun to play, then that increases the chances of my grouping and socializing, though thats usually because compared to pvp, pve tends to be just slower paced and allows me more time to chat away while fighting horrible AI capable of being beat with the same combo of button presses over and over and over.
"Don't know why everyone is hellbent on changing a game, which isn't the style they like, into a game that is what they like. If it's not what you want, move on to the next game and stop trying to make everyone play the same as you and insisting that designers make every game the same so that everyone is interested in all of them. Each game has their crowd that they try to get in, they dont all have to please everyone in the world."
What? Like turning a Multiplayer Game into a Single Player Game? Those games that are all the same to suit solo players with their continuous quest chains and easy content? When was the last time we saw a game with grouping as a requirement to advance? Hmm. Don't seem to remember one. I guess the soloers have changed the games to their style as the multiplayer aspect didn't suit them, so now everyone has to play the same game.
I think they should have just moved on to the next game instead of insisting that developers make every game the same.
"Don't know why everyone is hellbent on changing a game, which isn't the style they like, into a game that is what they like. If it's not what you want, move on to the next game and stop trying to make everyone play the same as you and insisting that designers make every game the same so that everyone is interested in all of them. Each game has their crowd that they try to get in, they dont all have to please everyone in the world."
What? Like turning a Multiplayer Game into a Single Player Game? Those games that are all the same to suit solo players with their continuous quest chains and easy content? When was the last time we saw a game with grouping as a requirement to advance? Hmm. Don't seem to remember one. I guess the soloers have changed the games to their style as the multiplayer aspect didn't suit them, so now everyone has to play the same game.
I think they should have just moved on to the next game instead of insisting that developers make every game the same.
Except for endgame, when you do have to group or forget about advancing your character meaningfully.
Also, what does 'continuous quest chains and easy content' have to do with soloing? A group game could have those just as easily.
And as a soloer I agree that some MMOs should require grouping, just not all of them simply because they fall under the MMO genre. Some MMOs should also have ALL content available to the soloer, currently none do. None.
I still wonder why no game yet (to my knowledge) as asychronous grouping. Maybe VG's brotherhood system comes close. Might be nice to have certain quests or dungeons what be ye be able to be challeneged by groups yet not necessarily at the same time. Maybe a duo takes on a part then a couple hours later a soloer does his/her part and then finally a few more folks come and finish up the dungeon. Maybe folks can leave each other messages or open dorrs for each other. Somehow working in asychronous team play elements so you can help out your mates even if you arent online at the same time might be kinda a nice way to work in a form of grouping. Oh well just a silly idea as I been up all night >.>
I still wonder why no game yet (to my knowledge) as asychronous grouping. Maybe VG's brotherhood system comes close. Might be nice to have certain quests or dungeons what be ye be able to be challeneged by groups yet not necessarily at the same time. Maybe a duo takes on a part then a couple hours later a soloer does his/her part and then finally a few more folks come and finish up the dungeon. Maybe folks can leave each other messages or open dorrs for each other. Somehow working in asychronous team play elements so you can help out your mates even if you arent online at the same time might be kinda a nice way to work in a form of grouping. Oh well just a silly idea as I been up all night >.>
It's a very intriguing idea.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Except for endgame, when you do have to group or forget about advancing your character meaningfully.
The only advancement you get in endgame is better gear. But if you're not interested in raiding or grouping then you've already hit max level and got the best solo-available gear, so why worry? You've played the game and 'won', well done, now the actual multiplayer gamers can have a turn.
Also, what does 'continuous quest chains and easy content' have to do with soloing? A group game could have those just as easily.
Solo content is always based on quest chains, where you do one quest and that quest giver points you to someone else and so on. The quests are rarely if ever group content, they're 99% soloable.
I like the idea of having all of the benefits of grouping, but without some stupid system in the way. Locking encounters, sorting loot, xp bonus, xp deficits, all are actually lame 'designed' ways to 'fix' something in a multiplayer game. I think it's part of a larger root problem with a player's ability to affect what happens to their character, to the world around them, and over all advancement.
I mean having a localized chat channel is pretty sweet, but all the other issues that arise can be fixed by simply changing the scope of what reaction should be available for a player's action.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Except for endgame, when you do have to group or forget about advancing your character meaningfully.
What sort of meaningful advancement (past level cap) do MMOs have for groups?
And as a soloer I agree that some MMOs should require grouping, just not all of them simply because they fall under the MMO genre.
As far as I know, currently none do.
Some MMOs should also have ALL content available to the soloer, currently none do. None.
This is where I disagree. It is illogical and unreasonable to expect solo content in a multiplayer game.
Except for endgame, when you do have to group or forget about advancing your character meaningfully.
The only advancement you get in endgame is better gear. But if you're not interested in raiding or grouping then you've already hit max level and got the best solo-available gear, so why worry? You've played the game and 'won', well done, now the actual multiplayer gamers can have a turn.
Also, what does 'continuous quest chains and easy content' have to do with soloing? A group game could have those just as easily.
Solo content is always based on quest chains, where you do one quest and that quest giver points you to someone else and so on. The quests are rarely if ever group content, they're 99% soloable.
Unless your character has the very best gear in the game in every 'slot', your character can improve. Also, some MMOs have types of Alternate Advancement that allows the player to improve some stats.
Devs can just as easily create group quest chains that are "continuous and have easy content". That definition does not equate to soloing.
Any content that requires a group is group only content. This is basically ALL the endgame content in EVERY MMO. And it's silly to say "if you're not going to group, you don't need the gear". For the most part, the groupers don't need the gear, they want it, because it improves their character. There's nothing wrong with that. I want it too. I am seeking a non-grouping method to get it.
It is only illogical to you to ask for solo content in a multiplayer game because you see an MMO as a something that should be a group-only experience. There are tons of reasons to play an MMO other than grouping, and you can find many of them in this very thread.
I'm not seeking to change every MMO to my preferred style. I'd just like to have a few (even ONE!) MMO that has endgame content that can be completed solo, including having the best gear in the game attainable that way. I don't see why it has to be so adversarial; I'm not trying to eliminate grouping from all MMOs, but it often seems to me the reverse is true, that groupers would like to see 90% of soloable content removed. Hell, go ahead and have SOME MMOs like that. But does it really affect your pro-grouping style if some MMOs were soloable all the way through? Is it utterly mandatory that EVERY MMO has a group-only endgame? If so, why?
Any content that requires a group is group only content. This is basically ALL the endgame content in EVERY MMO. And it's silly to say "if you're not going to group, you don't need the gear". For the most part, the groupers don't need the gear, they want it, because it improves their character. There's nothing wrong with that. I want it too. I am seeking a non-grouping method to get it.
That's wrong actually, 9 times out of 10, gear you get from raids is needed to progress into another raid, otherwise your raid is going to get kicked in all directions. The gear is a form of advancement only in the sense that it allows you to advance through the raiding tiers. If all you want to do is solo and not do these raids, you have no need to get this gear, what you have already should be fine to get you through your solo content.
I'm not seeking to change every MMO to my preferred style. I'd just like to have a few (even ONE!) MMO that has endgame content that can be completed solo, including having the best gear in the game attainable that way. I don't see why it has to be so adversarial; I'm not trying to eliminate grouping from all MMOs, but it often seems to me the reverse is true, that groupers would like to see 90% of soloable content removed.
The thing is, most MMO's, if not all, these days are completely soloable up to max level. Lord of the Rings Online, for instance, is soloable the whole way, they've even added things to make group quests soloable now. So for the person who likes to group, they're not going to get that option until the very endgame where the raids or hard group content kicks in. To make that soloable as well.. why bother making it an MMO at all? Just make it a single player RPG. If you're going to spend your whole time alone then why put the multiplayer option in there at all?
Also, it comes across as incredibly selfish, that soloers want the whole levelling game soloable, then at the end they want to get all the best stuff and finish all the raid equivalent content on their own too. Or at least be given an equivalent. That just doesn't settle right with me.
The thing is, most MMO's, if not all, these days are completely soloable up to max level. Lord of the Rings Online, for instance, is soloable the whole way, they've even added things to make group quests soloable now. So for the person who likes to group, they're not going to get that option until the very endgame where the raids or hard group content kicks in. To make that soloable as well.. why bother making it an MMO at all? Just make it a single player RPG. If you're going to spend your whole time alone then why put the multiplayer option in there at all?
Also, it comes across as incredibly selfish, that soloers want the whole levelling game soloable, then at the end they want to get all the best stuff and finish all the raid equivalent content on their own too. Or at least be given an equivalent. That just doesn't settle right with me.
To answer the first part: why should a player be forced to group to see content at all? I keep telling you, there are a great many, many reasons to play an MMO that have nothing to do with grouping. Even if you think it's silly, you can surely agree that there are a lot of soloers in MMOs, so they must be enjoying something.
Why is it selfish? Do you think it's fair that one playstyle gets better loot than the other? I suspect you feel that group content is inherently harder than solo content, and thus more deserving. By and large, this is understandable, because that's how most MMOs are designed these days. However, it's very possible to make challenging solo content (see most SP games). Devs just to make the effort, which is what I'm arguing for.
And again, I'm not asking that all MMO's be this way, just some of them. You might find that puzzling, but is it really selfish to ask for a small portion of them to be that way?
To answer the first part: why should a player be forced to group to see content at all? I keep telling you, there are a great many, many reasons to play an MMO that have nothing to do with grouping. Even if you think it's silly, you can surely agree that there are a lot of soloers in MMOs, so they must be enjoying something.
There are a lot of soloers in MMO's, I was one of them in LOTRO and more recently EverQuest, but I was soloing purely because it was the best option with the goal of getting to a higher level to reach the group content. People will follow the path of least resistance, and if that's the solo option then that's what people will do.
As for why they should be forced to group: It's a multiplayer game. If there is no multiplayer content then why make it a multiplayer game at all? If all you want is Elder Scrolls: Oblivion with real people wandering about then I really don't see the point. That to me is not an MMO.
Why is it selfish? Do you think it's fair that one playstyle gets better loot than the other? I suspect you feel that group content is inherently harder than solo content, and thus more deserving. By and large, this is understandable, because that's how most MMOs are designed these days. However, it's very possible to make challenging solo content (see most SP games). Devs just to make the effort, which is what I'm arguing for.
Let's say a raid consists of 24 people, that would be 4 groups of 6 which is fairly common. When all 24 people do that raid, assuming 4 pieces of loot drop, only 4 of those 24 people are going to get something. So then those 24 people have to do the raid again, so another 4 people can get the same loot. That's not including the fact that mobs tend to have random loot tables, with different items for different classes, so not every item is going to be there every time. Lets ignore that for now. For everyone to get every item you would need to do the raid 24 times.
Now you tell me why it isn't selfish for a soloer to be able to get all 4 of those items alone? On top of that, tell me why people would bother raiding at all if it's much faster just to do it solo? See, this is my point. If you have a game that you solo all content from level 1 to level MAX, then the endgame content is also soloed, then why bother making it multiplayer at all? Just stick your MSN on in another window and play a single player game.
OK, so do you want to group because it's more fun to you, or because it's more rewarding?
Grouping should be done because that's the way the player likes to play, not because it's the only way to play.
And it's not hard to come up with grouping bonuses to exp, or higher percentage drops, etc., to incentivize it. My point is that there should be no loot, NONE, that is only available through grouping.
In your raiding example; let's say it took those 24 people 2 hours to complete the raid and 4 of them got a piece of loot. At that rate, it would take 12 hours for each person to get a piece of that loot. So how about that instance also had a soloable option that would take the soloer, say, 15 hours to obtain one piece of loot. This offsets the hassle of setting up the raid and doesn't make soloing the 'better' option, but it allows the soloer a method to acquire the same gear.
Also, you keep forgetting that there are lots of reasons to solo in an MMO that have nothing to do with combat. Soloing in an MMO is very very different from playing a single player game. MMO's feel alive, they have tons more content, they have auction houses, they are constantly expanding and growing, etc etc. Soloing in an MMO does not equal a SP game with chat, it's much much more.
Finally, I am only asking for SOME, not all, MMOs to be this way. Is that so unreasonable? Does every MMO have to fit your definition?
OK, so do you want to group because it's more fun to you, or because it's more rewarding?
Because it's more fun. I honestly couldn't care less about the loot, it's just a side effect of doing something that the devs have decided to hand to us. What I do love is six people getting together, each with different abilities and skills, working together in some sort of perfect union to take on mobs that would splat a soloer in 5 seconds flat. For people to work together like that and see a successful outcome is just poetry in motion.
My biggest memory in that regard would be Emperor Ssrasheva (sp?) in EverQuest. After weeks, maybe months, of getting everyone keys and weapons created we decided to try and take on the Emperor. It took a few attempts to work out what his special abilities were and what would happen during the fight, but during one practice run we realised we were actually going to win. When he finally dropped I literally leapt out of my chair with a "Woop!".
Excitement like that can never be gained through solo play. It's either you can or you can't with solo play, you might not have enough healing, might not do enough damage, whatever it might be. A team of people using their seperate abilities to get each other through is just great.
And it's not hard to come up with grouping bonuses to exp, or higher percentage drops, etc., to incentivize it. My point is that there should be no loot, NONE, that is only available through grouping.
Why? In my example raid above, if I had spent those weeks and months working on that encounter and an item dropped, say an awesome monk staff, then some soloer came along and said he'd had it for months off a random orc then that would be like a slap in the face. Raids and group encounters are rewarded with better items because of the difficulty and amount of people required, those rewards should never be equal to something Orc_Pawn_01 dropped in the newbie zone.
In your raiding example; let's say it took those 24 people 2 hours to complete the raid and 4 of them got a piece of loot. At that rate, it would take 12 hours for each person to get a piece of that loot.
That would be assuming the mob respawned after a few minutes. To keep control of the amount of these raid items in circulation, devs usually make the raid mobs spawn once every so many hours, days, or even the next time the server is reset.
So how about that instance also had a soloable option that would take the soloer, say, 15 hours to obtain one piece of loot. This offsets the hassle of setting up the raid and doesn't make soloing the 'better' option, but it allows the soloer a method to acquire the same gear.
As said before, devs like to keep a certain control over how many of these items are in circulation. They're the best items and hard to get for a reason, too many of them and it'll make other content too easy and the whole balance of the game will go crazy. So if everyone can do this 15 hour solo thing and get a guaranteed item at the end, then people are going to do that. Then they'll do it again for every other item. And the server will be saturated with them and people will start complaining that content is too easy. Then the devs will come along and tweak the content so it's harder, then the players will come back and say they can't solo it now and they have to group for this and that item and it's not fair.. and so it goes on.
It's a multiplayer game for a reason, not just for the social and real world feel.
Soloing in an MMO is very very different from playing a single player game. MMO's feel alive, they have tons more content, they have auction houses, they are constantly expanding and growing, etc etc. Soloing in an MMO does not equal a SP game with chat, it's much much more.
Though I enjoy the way MMO's feel in the same way, I also realise at its core it's a multiplayer game and has been designed with groups in mind. That might be small group or raid content, or it could be the entire game from start to end, whatever it is, I go into an MMO expecting there to be multiplayer content. If there's not, then why am I paying monthly just to wander around an auction house or watch people I'll never interact with rushing by?
Finally, I am only asking for SOME, not all, MMOs to be this way. Is that so unreasonable? Does every MMO have to fit your definition?
I'm asking for some MMO's to be more group friendly, but almost all MMO's currently released can be spent from start to end level alone. I tell you what, I'll give you a deal: If I can have MMO's as group based games, then I'll let you take the new name of MSPO's and developers can make as many MSPO's as they want. As long as I know when I buy an MMO I'm going to have group content, I'll be happy. That's not how it is right now.
OK, so do you want to group because it's more fun to you, or because it's more rewarding?
Because it's more fun. I honestly couldn't care less about the loot, it's just a side effect of doing something that the devs have decided to hand to us. What I do love is six people getting together, each with different abilities and skills, working together in some sort of perfect union to take on mobs that would splat a soloer in 5 seconds flat. For people to work together like that and see a successful outcome is just poetry in motion.
My biggest memory in that regard would be Emperor Ssrasheva (sp?) in EverQuest. After weeks, maybe months, of getting everyone keys and weapons created we decided to try and take on the Emperor. It took a few attempts to work out what his special abilities were and what would happen during the fight, but during one practice run we realised we were actually going to win. When he finally dropped I literally leapt out of my chair with a "Woop!".
Excitement like that can never be gained through solo play. It's either you can or you can't with solo play, you might not have enough healing, might not do enough damage, whatever it might be. A team of people using their seperate abilities to get each other through is just great.
And it's not hard to come up with grouping bonuses to exp, or higher percentage drops, etc., to incentivize it. My point is that there should be no loot, NONE, that is only available through grouping.
Why? In my example raid above, if I had spent those weeks and months working on that encounter and an item dropped, say an awesome monk staff, then some soloer came along and said he'd had it for months off a random orc then that would be like a slap in the face. Raids and group encounters are rewarded with better items because of the difficulty and amount of people required, those rewards should never be equal to something Orc_Pawn_01 dropped in the newbie zone.
In your raiding example; let's say it took those 24 people 2 hours to complete the raid and 4 of them got a piece of loot. At that rate, it would take 12 hours for each person to get a piece of that loot.
That would be assuming the mob respawned after a few minutes. To keep control of the amount of these raid items in circulation, devs usually make the raid mobs spawn once every so many hours, days, or even the next time the server is reset.
So how about that instance also had a soloable option that would take the soloer, say, 15 hours to obtain one piece of loot. This offsets the hassle of setting up the raid and doesn't make soloing the 'better' option, but it allows the soloer a method to acquire the same gear.
As said before, devs like to keep a certain control over how many of these items are in circulation. They're the best items and hard to get for a reason, too many of them and it'll make other content too easy and the whole balance of the game will go crazy. So if everyone can do this 15 hour solo thing and get a guaranteed item at the end, then people are going to do that. Then they'll do it again for every other item. And the server will be saturated with them and people will start complaining that content is too easy. Then the devs will come along and tweak the content so it's harder, then the players will come back and say they can't solo it now and they have to group for this and that item and it's not fair.. and so it goes on.
It's a multiplayer game for a reason, not just for the social and real world feel.
Soloing in an MMO is very very different from playing a single player game. MMO's feel alive, they have tons more content, they have auction houses, they are constantly expanding and growing, etc etc. Soloing in an MMO does not equal a SP game with chat, it's much much more.
Though I enjoy the way MMO's feel in the same way, I also realise at its core it's a multiplayer game and has been designed with groups in mind. That might be small group or raid content, or it could be the entire game from start to end, whatever it is, I go into an MMO expecting there to be multiplayer content. If there's not, then why am I paying monthly just to wander around an auction house or watch people I'll never interact with rushing by?
Finally, I am only asking for SOME, not all, MMOs to be this way. Is that so unreasonable? Does every MMO have to fit your definition?
I'm asking for some MMO's to be more group friendly, but almost all MMO's currently released can be spent from start to end level alone. I tell you what, I'll give you a deal: If I can have MMO's as group based games, then I'll let you take the new name of MSPO's and developers can make as many MSPO's as they want. As long as I know when I buy an MMO I'm going to have group content, I'll be happy. That's not how it is right now.
You say you group for fun, but that the soloer, no matter how much longer it might take him, should NEVER get the same rewards as the grouper.
If there were some MMOs that were soloable to the top, you could simply not play them. However, that doesn't seem enough for you. Apparently, EVERY SINGLE MMO must fit your definition, and there is no room in your mind for even ONE MMO that has soloable endgame content, if for no other reason than they are called MMOs.
So, you are unwilling to compromise even for a single game, because, I'm sure, you play every MMO in existance. Got it. I've told you, and others have posted here, that there are lots of ways people enjoy MMOs that has nothing to do with grouping, even if that's how you get your fun.
Here's a tip: the definition of MMOs is much broader than you think.
You say you group for fun, but that the soloer, no matter how much longer it might take him, should NEVER get the same rewards as the grouper.
No, what I'm saying is that the soloer should never get the same rewards as something that needed a group effort. I'd equate it to winning the lottery. Joe & Bob want a Ferrari. Joe goes to work every day, puts some money away in his bank each week, eventually gets enough to buy his car. Bob wins the lottery and buys a Ferrari, thus avoiding all the effort that Joe had to go through.
Same principle. Joe, the grouper, has to spend time and effort with his co-workers to reach the point he wants to be at. Bob does it alone by buying a lottery ticket. If you had the same odds of getting a raid equivalent item as to winning the lottery, then maybe I'd agree with you.
If there were some MMOs that were soloable to the top, you could simply not play them.
And I don't play them. Games such as Champions Online, which never needed a group, I got bored of that before even the first month was over.
I've told you, and others have posted here, that there are lots of ways people enjoy MMOs that has nothing to do with grouping, even if that's how you get your fun.
That's great, I'm glad they enjoy them in their own way. But why must they seek to change them into single player games? Surely they know there's going to be group content in an MMO, why start crying and whining because they can't get the best items, when they knew full well when they signed up that content was going to include raids and group-only dungeons?
As I've said before, it just comes across as incredibly selfish. If you want a pure solo game then I hope a developer makes one for you, but I can almost guarantee it won't fall under the 'MMO' title. Borderlands is about as close as it's come so far.
A soloer, no matter how much time they put in to a game, should never get the same rewards as someone who joins a group to tackle a large obstacle. Groups trying to achieve goals together should always be the main mechanic in a MMORPG.
But it should be more than 40 people tackling a giant block of hit points, and the reward system for actions over all in the current game design should see some innovation in upcoming titles to move the genre along.
Solo gamers should stick to stand alone titles for a satisfying solo game experience. Stop begging for purple gear in WoW and pick up Demon Soul.
Now there's a way to make class specific game play actions and quests that could add a nice solo diversion in a large scale social game here and there, but to think that should get the same reward as a group effort, even over time, is daft.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
But it should be more than 40 people tackling a giant block of hit points, and the reward system for actions over all in the current game design should see some innovation in upcoming titles to move the genre along.
In my earlier post I was talking about Emperor Ssrasheva in EverQuest. I don't know how many people ever did that raid, but it was definitely more than a group of people attacking a block of hitpoints. The Emperor had guards, about 8 in all I think, might have been 6, bad memory, old age, please forgive me.. Anyway! These guards would immediately respawn when killed if the Emperor was still alive, which usually meant them charging the nearest group of clerics and causing the raid to wipe.
So we had a massive raid, all split into multiple groups with people on each of the guards making sure that aggro was kept without doing enough damage to kill them, while another part of the raid force was on the Emperor trying to chop him to the ground. It was a massive effort that required a ton of coordination and skill by the players and is why it's my most memorable raid ever.
EverQuest was always great for that, they made amazing raids. Not so sure with new expansions though, things started to go downhill a bit after PoP.
Well EQ had some of those towering blocks of hp raids in it, actually got worse with EQ2 in my opinion, but I always had fun. I remember a few of the deity fights (I can't remember exact names now either) but it was one of the planes and the mob would randomly teleport players to locked areas of the zone. That's always interesting, but too many games make their epic group ecounters simple.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
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I'm sure more of the solo players would agree to group play if it was like you describe it in all games rodrigo. Getting a group in a few min so you can actually play the game, not wait around.
CoH is my favortie MMO; I've been playing since launch, and one of the reasons is because there is very little content that requires a group to experience. With the ability to set mission difficulty and scaling, it is the most solo-friendly MMO I've ever played. In fact, it allows me something as a soloer that I've never seen in even one other MMO ever: I can acquire the best loot in the game without ever once being required to group to do so.
Grouping should ALWAYS been an option, and never a requirement to experience content. I love CoH for a zillion reasons, but one of my complaints about it is the 2% of group-required content it has, I wish it were soloable too.
Does this mean I never group when playing it? Hell, no. Grouping is a blast in that game, and it doesn't require any specific tank/healer setup, any team makeup can do fine. But I group because I WANT to, not because it's required.
I can't think of any MMORPG that does single player content better than top echelon single player RPGs so when I log in to play I am doing so to interact with other players. The only reason solo content needs to exist is to give something to pass the time while getting a group together.
On the other hand, random grouping can also be a pain. I think a good solution is zone wide quests where you are not necesserily grouping with other players directly but you need other players to complete the quest either because it is timed or too difficult to complete alone. Developers would need to temper these quests based on player population.
In your opinion & for YOU. Don't know why it's so hard people to grasp the concept that not everyone plays for the same reasons that you do. Theres quite a few reasons to play MMOs other than to group up for PVE content. That happens to be your preferrrence, but it does not apply to everyone, otherwise games wouldn't be designed the way they are, and we wouldnt even be having this discussion. Either way, there are games which cater to 1 or the other, and game sthat cater to both at the same time. Wtf does it matter? Play one of the game sthat suits your preferred style of play and stick with it. Don't know why everyone is hellbent on changing a game, which isn't the style they like, into a game that is what they like. If it's not what you want, move on to the next game and stop trying to make everyone play the same as you and insisting that designers make every game the same so that everyone is interested in all of them. Each game has their crowd that they try to get in, they dont all have to please everyone in the world.
As for the 2nd half of what you said. That's why a lot of us are quickly becoming excited about Guild Wars 2 and the steps that they are taking to make it a dynamic, changing world where people actually want to get together and do things that are impacting the entire world, rather than trying to force people to group up & grind Quest/Raid #7395935934595 for a 2% chance of getting 1 of several pieces of gear you need to get.
Reading alot of this same stuff begs the same question. Why pay $15 a month to play a game like a single-player game with a lobby system.
Because not grouping with people for pve does not = a single player game with a lobby. As i mentione din the post above yours, there are a lot of reason to be playing MMOs, we all have our own, and yours is not everyones reason. It can also vary from game to game. You may play 1 MMO for a particular reason, and another for a way different reason.
Just to name a few:
Being a crafter and selling your crafts to other players
Trading with other players & playing with the AH for the economic aspects
PvP
Those 3, and many more, are reasons why someone might play an MMO, and neither of those requires grouping of any form at any time, it can all be done solo, and is not available in single player games. Personally, i got into MMOs for the PvP, i didnt get into it to make friends and socialize. Sure, ive made a few great friends along the way, but when i login to a game i dont feel like "OMG i have no friends, i gotta go make some new ones to group with". If i happen to get in a group with someone, or even just through talking in chat, and get a friend out of it cool, if not, just 1 more person for me to take on in the PvP field.
If it's a non-pvp game, that's done well and is actually fun to play, then that increases the chances of my grouping and socializing, though thats usually because compared to pvp, pve tends to be just slower paced and allows me more time to chat away while fighting horrible AI capable of being beat with the same combo of button presses over and over and over.
It lacks chatbox and shared market/zone to show off your leeeeeeet farmed gear.
"Don't know why everyone is hellbent on changing a game, which isn't the style they like, into a game that is what they like. If it's not what you want, move on to the next game and stop trying to make everyone play the same as you and insisting that designers make every game the same so that everyone is interested in all of them. Each game has their crowd that they try to get in, they dont all have to please everyone in the world."
What? Like turning a Multiplayer Game into a Single Player Game? Those games that are all the same to suit solo players with their continuous quest chains and easy content? When was the last time we saw a game with grouping as a requirement to advance? Hmm. Don't seem to remember one. I guess the soloers have changed the games to their style as the multiplayer aspect didn't suit them, so now everyone has to play the same game.
I think they should have just moved on to the next game instead of insisting that developers make every game the same.
Except for endgame, when you do have to group or forget about advancing your character meaningfully.
Also, what does 'continuous quest chains and easy content' have to do with soloing? A group game could have those just as easily.
And as a soloer I agree that some MMOs should require grouping, just not all of them simply because they fall under the MMO genre. Some MMOs should also have ALL content available to the soloer, currently none do. None.
I still wonder why no game yet (to my knowledge) as asychronous grouping. Maybe VG's brotherhood system comes close. Might be nice to have certain quests or dungeons what be ye be able to be challeneged by groups yet not necessarily at the same time. Maybe a duo takes on a part then a couple hours later a soloer does his/her part and then finally a few more folks come and finish up the dungeon. Maybe folks can leave each other messages or open dorrs for each other. Somehow working in asychronous team play elements so you can help out your mates even if you arent online at the same time might be kinda a nice way to work in a form of grouping. Oh well just a silly idea as I been up all night >.>
This is where I disagree. It is illogical and unreasonable to expect solo content in a multiplayer game.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It's a very intriguing idea.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Except for endgame, when you do have to group or forget about advancing your character meaningfully.
The only advancement you get in endgame is better gear. But if you're not interested in raiding or grouping then you've already hit max level and got the best solo-available gear, so why worry? You've played the game and 'won', well done, now the actual multiplayer gamers can have a turn.
Also, what does 'continuous quest chains and easy content' have to do with soloing? A group game could have those just as easily.
Solo content is always based on quest chains, where you do one quest and that quest giver points you to someone else and so on. The quests are rarely if ever group content, they're 99% soloable.
I like the idea of having all of the benefits of grouping, but without some stupid system in the way. Locking encounters, sorting loot, xp bonus, xp deficits, all are actually lame 'designed' ways to 'fix' something in a multiplayer game. I think it's part of a larger root problem with a player's ability to affect what happens to their character, to the world around them, and over all advancement.
I mean having a localized chat channel is pretty sweet, but all the other issues that arise can be fixed by simply changing the scope of what reaction should be available for a player's action.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
Except for endgame, when you do have to group or forget about advancing your character meaningfully.
The only advancement you get in endgame is better gear. But if you're not interested in raiding or grouping then you've already hit max level and got the best solo-available gear, so why worry? You've played the game and 'won', well done, now the actual multiplayer gamers can have a turn.
Also, what does 'continuous quest chains and easy content' have to do with soloing? A group game could have those just as easily.
Solo content is always based on quest chains, where you do one quest and that quest giver points you to someone else and so on. The quests are rarely if ever group content, they're 99% soloable.
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Unless your character has the very best gear in the game in every 'slot', your character can improve. Also, some MMOs have types of Alternate Advancement that allows the player to improve some stats.
Devs can just as easily create group quest chains that are "continuous and have easy content". That definition does not equate to soloing.
Any content that requires a group is group only content. This is basically ALL the endgame content in EVERY MMO. And it's silly to say "if you're not going to group, you don't need the gear". For the most part, the groupers don't need the gear, they want it, because it improves their character. There's nothing wrong with that. I want it too. I am seeking a non-grouping method to get it.
It is only illogical to you to ask for solo content in a multiplayer game because you see an MMO as a something that should be a group-only experience. There are tons of reasons to play an MMO other than grouping, and you can find many of them in this very thread.
I'm not seeking to change every MMO to my preferred style. I'd just like to have a few (even ONE!) MMO that has endgame content that can be completed solo, including having the best gear in the game attainable that way. I don't see why it has to be so adversarial; I'm not trying to eliminate grouping from all MMOs, but it often seems to me the reverse is true, that groupers would like to see 90% of soloable content removed. Hell, go ahead and have SOME MMOs like that. But does it really affect your pro-grouping style if some MMOs were soloable all the way through? Is it utterly mandatory that EVERY MMO has a group-only endgame? If so, why?
Any content that requires a group is group only content. This is basically ALL the endgame content in EVERY MMO. And it's silly to say "if you're not going to group, you don't need the gear". For the most part, the groupers don't need the gear, they want it, because it improves their character. There's nothing wrong with that. I want it too. I am seeking a non-grouping method to get it.
That's wrong actually, 9 times out of 10, gear you get from raids is needed to progress into another raid, otherwise your raid is going to get kicked in all directions. The gear is a form of advancement only in the sense that it allows you to advance through the raiding tiers. If all you want to do is solo and not do these raids, you have no need to get this gear, what you have already should be fine to get you through your solo content.
I'm not seeking to change every MMO to my preferred style. I'd just like to have a few (even ONE!) MMO that has endgame content that can be completed solo, including having the best gear in the game attainable that way. I don't see why it has to be so adversarial; I'm not trying to eliminate grouping from all MMOs, but it often seems to me the reverse is true, that groupers would like to see 90% of soloable content removed.
The thing is, most MMO's, if not all, these days are completely soloable up to max level. Lord of the Rings Online, for instance, is soloable the whole way, they've even added things to make group quests soloable now. So for the person who likes to group, they're not going to get that option until the very endgame where the raids or hard group content kicks in. To make that soloable as well.. why bother making it an MMO at all? Just make it a single player RPG. If you're going to spend your whole time alone then why put the multiplayer option in there at all?
Also, it comes across as incredibly selfish, that soloers want the whole levelling game soloable, then at the end they want to get all the best stuff and finish all the raid equivalent content on their own too. Or at least be given an equivalent. That just doesn't settle right with me.
To answer the first part: why should a player be forced to group to see content at all? I keep telling you, there are a great many, many reasons to play an MMO that have nothing to do with grouping. Even if you think it's silly, you can surely agree that there are a lot of soloers in MMOs, so they must be enjoying something.
Why is it selfish? Do you think it's fair that one playstyle gets better loot than the other? I suspect you feel that group content is inherently harder than solo content, and thus more deserving. By and large, this is understandable, because that's how most MMOs are designed these days. However, it's very possible to make challenging solo content (see most SP games). Devs just to make the effort, which is what I'm arguing for.
And again, I'm not asking that all MMO's be this way, just some of them. You might find that puzzling, but is it really selfish to ask for a small portion of them to be that way?
To answer the first part: why should a player be forced to group to see content at all? I keep telling you, there are a great many, many reasons to play an MMO that have nothing to do with grouping. Even if you think it's silly, you can surely agree that there are a lot of soloers in MMOs, so they must be enjoying something.
There are a lot of soloers in MMO's, I was one of them in LOTRO and more recently EverQuest, but I was soloing purely because it was the best option with the goal of getting to a higher level to reach the group content. People will follow the path of least resistance, and if that's the solo option then that's what people will do.
As for why they should be forced to group: It's a multiplayer game. If there is no multiplayer content then why make it a multiplayer game at all? If all you want is Elder Scrolls: Oblivion with real people wandering about then I really don't see the point. That to me is not an MMO.
Why is it selfish? Do you think it's fair that one playstyle gets better loot than the other? I suspect you feel that group content is inherently harder than solo content, and thus more deserving. By and large, this is understandable, because that's how most MMOs are designed these days. However, it's very possible to make challenging solo content (see most SP games). Devs just to make the effort, which is what I'm arguing for.
Let's say a raid consists of 24 people, that would be 4 groups of 6 which is fairly common. When all 24 people do that raid, assuming 4 pieces of loot drop, only 4 of those 24 people are going to get something. So then those 24 people have to do the raid again, so another 4 people can get the same loot. That's not including the fact that mobs tend to have random loot tables, with different items for different classes, so not every item is going to be there every time. Lets ignore that for now. For everyone to get every item you would need to do the raid 24 times.
Now you tell me why it isn't selfish for a soloer to be able to get all 4 of those items alone? On top of that, tell me why people would bother raiding at all if it's much faster just to do it solo? See, this is my point. If you have a game that you solo all content from level 1 to level MAX, then the endgame content is also soloed, then why bother making it multiplayer at all? Just stick your MSN on in another window and play a single player game.
OK, so do you want to group because it's more fun to you, or because it's more rewarding?
Grouping should be done because that's the way the player likes to play, not because it's the only way to play.
And it's not hard to come up with grouping bonuses to exp, or higher percentage drops, etc., to incentivize it. My point is that there should be no loot, NONE, that is only available through grouping.
In your raiding example; let's say it took those 24 people 2 hours to complete the raid and 4 of them got a piece of loot. At that rate, it would take 12 hours for each person to get a piece of that loot. So how about that instance also had a soloable option that would take the soloer, say, 15 hours to obtain one piece of loot. This offsets the hassle of setting up the raid and doesn't make soloing the 'better' option, but it allows the soloer a method to acquire the same gear.
Also, you keep forgetting that there are lots of reasons to solo in an MMO that have nothing to do with combat. Soloing in an MMO is very very different from playing a single player game. MMO's feel alive, they have tons more content, they have auction houses, they are constantly expanding and growing, etc etc. Soloing in an MMO does not equal a SP game with chat, it's much much more.
Finally, I am only asking for SOME, not all, MMOs to be this way. Is that so unreasonable? Does every MMO have to fit your definition?
OK, so do you want to group because it's more fun to you, or because it's more rewarding?
Because it's more fun. I honestly couldn't care less about the loot, it's just a side effect of doing something that the devs have decided to hand to us. What I do love is six people getting together, each with different abilities and skills, working together in some sort of perfect union to take on mobs that would splat a soloer in 5 seconds flat. For people to work together like that and see a successful outcome is just poetry in motion.
My biggest memory in that regard would be Emperor Ssrasheva (sp?) in EverQuest. After weeks, maybe months, of getting everyone keys and weapons created we decided to try and take on the Emperor. It took a few attempts to work out what his special abilities were and what would happen during the fight, but during one practice run we realised we were actually going to win. When he finally dropped I literally leapt out of my chair with a "Woop!".
Excitement like that can never be gained through solo play. It's either you can or you can't with solo play, you might not have enough healing, might not do enough damage, whatever it might be. A team of people using their seperate abilities to get each other through is just great.
And it's not hard to come up with grouping bonuses to exp, or higher percentage drops, etc., to incentivize it. My point is that there should be no loot, NONE, that is only available through grouping.
Why? In my example raid above, if I had spent those weeks and months working on that encounter and an item dropped, say an awesome monk staff, then some soloer came along and said he'd had it for months off a random orc then that would be like a slap in the face. Raids and group encounters are rewarded with better items because of the difficulty and amount of people required, those rewards should never be equal to something Orc_Pawn_01 dropped in the newbie zone.
In your raiding example; let's say it took those 24 people 2 hours to complete the raid and 4 of them got a piece of loot. At that rate, it would take 12 hours for each person to get a piece of that loot.
That would be assuming the mob respawned after a few minutes. To keep control of the amount of these raid items in circulation, devs usually make the raid mobs spawn once every so many hours, days, or even the next time the server is reset.
So how about that instance also had a soloable option that would take the soloer, say, 15 hours to obtain one piece of loot. This offsets the hassle of setting up the raid and doesn't make soloing the 'better' option, but it allows the soloer a method to acquire the same gear.
As said before, devs like to keep a certain control over how many of these items are in circulation. They're the best items and hard to get for a reason, too many of them and it'll make other content too easy and the whole balance of the game will go crazy. So if everyone can do this 15 hour solo thing and get a guaranteed item at the end, then people are going to do that. Then they'll do it again for every other item. And the server will be saturated with them and people will start complaining that content is too easy. Then the devs will come along and tweak the content so it's harder, then the players will come back and say they can't solo it now and they have to group for this and that item and it's not fair.. and so it goes on.
It's a multiplayer game for a reason, not just for the social and real world feel.
Soloing in an MMO is very very different from playing a single player game. MMO's feel alive, they have tons more content, they have auction houses, they are constantly expanding and growing, etc etc. Soloing in an MMO does not equal a SP game with chat, it's much much more.
Though I enjoy the way MMO's feel in the same way, I also realise at its core it's a multiplayer game and has been designed with groups in mind. That might be small group or raid content, or it could be the entire game from start to end, whatever it is, I go into an MMO expecting there to be multiplayer content. If there's not, then why am I paying monthly just to wander around an auction house or watch people I'll never interact with rushing by?
Finally, I am only asking for SOME, not all, MMOs to be this way. Is that so unreasonable? Does every MMO have to fit your definition?
I'm asking for some MMO's to be more group friendly, but almost all MMO's currently released can be spent from start to end level alone. I tell you what, I'll give you a deal: If I can have MMO's as group based games, then I'll let you take the new name of MSPO's and developers can make as many MSPO's as they want. As long as I know when I buy an MMO I'm going to have group content, I'll be happy. That's not how it is right now.
You say you group for fun, but that the soloer, no matter how much longer it might take him, should NEVER get the same rewards as the grouper.
If there were some MMOs that were soloable to the top, you could simply not play them. However, that doesn't seem enough for you. Apparently, EVERY SINGLE MMO must fit your definition, and there is no room in your mind for even ONE MMO that has soloable endgame content, if for no other reason than they are called MMOs.
So, you are unwilling to compromise even for a single game, because, I'm sure, you play every MMO in existance. Got it. I've told you, and others have posted here, that there are lots of ways people enjoy MMOs that has nothing to do with grouping, even if that's how you get your fun.
Here's a tip: the definition of MMOs is much broader than you think.
You say you group for fun, but that the soloer, no matter how much longer it might take him, should NEVER get the same rewards as the grouper.
No, what I'm saying is that the soloer should never get the same rewards as something that needed a group effort. I'd equate it to winning the lottery. Joe & Bob want a Ferrari. Joe goes to work every day, puts some money away in his bank each week, eventually gets enough to buy his car. Bob wins the lottery and buys a Ferrari, thus avoiding all the effort that Joe had to go through.
Same principle. Joe, the grouper, has to spend time and effort with his co-workers to reach the point he wants to be at. Bob does it alone by buying a lottery ticket. If you had the same odds of getting a raid equivalent item as to winning the lottery, then maybe I'd agree with you.
If there were some MMOs that were soloable to the top, you could simply not play them.
And I don't play them. Games such as Champions Online, which never needed a group, I got bored of that before even the first month was over.
I've told you, and others have posted here, that there are lots of ways people enjoy MMOs that has nothing to do with grouping, even if that's how you get your fun.
That's great, I'm glad they enjoy them in their own way. But why must they seek to change them into single player games? Surely they know there's going to be group content in an MMO, why start crying and whining because they can't get the best items, when they knew full well when they signed up that content was going to include raids and group-only dungeons?
As I've said before, it just comes across as incredibly selfish. If you want a pure solo game then I hope a developer makes one for you, but I can almost guarantee it won't fall under the 'MMO' title. Borderlands is about as close as it's come so far.
A soloer, no matter how much time they put in to a game, should never get the same rewards as someone who joins a group to tackle a large obstacle. Groups trying to achieve goals together should always be the main mechanic in a MMORPG.
But it should be more than 40 people tackling a giant block of hit points, and the reward system for actions over all in the current game design should see some innovation in upcoming titles to move the genre along.
Solo gamers should stick to stand alone titles for a satisfying solo game experience. Stop begging for purple gear in WoW and pick up Demon Soul.
Now there's a way to make class specific game play actions and quests that could add a nice solo diversion in a large scale social game here and there, but to think that should get the same reward as a group effort, even over time, is daft.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.
But it should be more than 40 people tackling a giant block of hit points, and the reward system for actions over all in the current game design should see some innovation in upcoming titles to move the genre along.
In my earlier post I was talking about Emperor Ssrasheva in EverQuest. I don't know how many people ever did that raid, but it was definitely more than a group of people attacking a block of hitpoints. The Emperor had guards, about 8 in all I think, might have been 6, bad memory, old age, please forgive me.. Anyway! These guards would immediately respawn when killed if the Emperor was still alive, which usually meant them charging the nearest group of clerics and causing the raid to wipe.
So we had a massive raid, all split into multiple groups with people on each of the guards making sure that aggro was kept without doing enough damage to kill them, while another part of the raid force was on the Emperor trying to chop him to the ground. It was a massive effort that required a ton of coordination and skill by the players and is why it's my most memorable raid ever.
EverQuest was always great for that, they made amazing raids. Not so sure with new expansions though, things started to go downhill a bit after PoP.
Well EQ had some of those towering blocks of hp raids in it, actually got worse with EQ2 in my opinion, but I always had fun. I remember a few of the deity fights (I can't remember exact names now either) but it was one of the planes and the mob would randomly teleport players to locked areas of the zone. That's always interesting, but too many games make their epic group ecounters simple.
I kill other players because they're smarter than AI, sometimes.