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Could EVE's system work in a Fantasy setting?
Wighty
Member UncommonPosts: 699
As the title asks, EVE has an awesome game system where advancment is based on their longevity "learning" system that acts in real time...
Lately the word "grind" comes up a lot in games and people hate it or are atrying to think up new and creative ways to circumvent it with either bots, macro's, sploits, etc...
From my short time in EVE (I by no means profess to be n expert) it seemed that everything was soley based on properly filling out your leaning trees and just playing the game, the only real grind (if you want to call it that) is earning ISK (the games currency for those not familiar), or materials to craft with...
the only thing in this system that I wash was different, was some form of reward system for those who were active as opposed to a player who parks his character and just logs in to fill up their learning trees... perhaps bonus learning time for those who complete missions or are active in the game...
But can this work in a fantasy setting? Gamers would sub the game, there would be zero grind (except for maybe coin or crafyt materials) and players can exist, and how successful they are is based mainly on the individuals skill, dedication to the game (casual or hardcore) and ability to plan ahead thinking about how they want their character to eventually develop...
I know Alganon implimented a learning system in their game, which seems like a more secondary or even tertiary means of advancmenet, but that game in its current state is a train wreck off the rails...
Could this work as a primary advancement system... Think EVE meets Darkfall...
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Comments
When WoD (World of Darkness) hits the shelves then you will see this concept done in a fantasy setting.
How does Eve differ from the progression system in UO or Darkfall?
I don't get it.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
the only barrier between a fantasy game and eve style gameplay is a developer with enough balls to get the job done right. eve gameplay can be adopted for any genre, its only a matter of doing. the rest are details.
but i think many may argue there's still a shitload of grind in eve.
LOL, Huh????
The second poster mentioned CCP/White Wolf's WoD. I believe when this game finally arrives, we are going to see some much needed MMORPG magic, and the OP will get his answer of course.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
In EVE, you raise your skills in real-time, even when you are off-line.
The main difference is the purpose of the skills though, they are just tools like ISK(game currency) or ships you fly.
You can say that you do not progress in EVE, you just play the game.
Simple. In UO you have to actively do a task to get better at it. When you repeatedly use a weapon, you get better at that kind of weapon. Make 1000 shovels and you get better at blacksmithing, etc. If you stop training a skill, it degrades over time.
In Eve, you choose a skill (say, Frigate piloting skill). That skill advances until its completed or you change what skill is training. Frigate skill advances even if you're not flying a frigate. It advances 24/7 even when you're not logged in. The downside is you can't raise two skills at once. Also, skills never degrade.
I can also roleplay the tower in a chess game and shout "is that a peasant at the horizon I see? I will smash it I will! Oh damn I broke one of my merlons!". -- maji
The problem is not the real-time skill training itself, problem is what is gonna replace the game objective which is the character progression - something that will become meaningless.
I know Fallen Earth is very similar to Eve, just not fantasy. So I can see it being done..........
In Eve, you choose a skill (say, Frigate piloting skill). That skill advances until its completed or you change what skill is training. Frigate skill advances even if you're not flying a frigate. It advances 24/7 even when you're not logged in. The downside is you can't raise two skills at once. Also, skills never degrade.
So, say I wanted to take a skill called swordsmanship so that I could melee. I would select the skill and play or not play and the skill would go up until I hit max?
What would stop someone from rolling all 50 alts and leveling up their skills to max while not playing them?
Why not just give everyone max skill right out of the gate?
Does it take weeks or months to max a skill out?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
I think an example might make more sense.
In EVE, if I wanted to fly a medium sized fighter ship (a Cruiser) I would have to train small ships and then Cruiser to a level depending on the ship. This requires me to by an instructional book and set my character 'reading it' They can continue reading off-line as well and you can cue stuff up in a 24 hour window. If I want to fly a cruiser well, I'll need a bunch of books to learn things like - using engines efficiently, using beter guns, better sheilds/armor, etc etc etc.
Compared to Darkfall where to use Greater Magic I need to train lesser by killing hundreds of goblins.
"Never met a pack of humans that were any different. Look at the idiots that get elected every couple of years. You really consider those guys more mature than us? The only difference between us and them is, when they gank some noobs and take their stuff, the noobs actually die." - Madimorga
EVE only allows you to train skills on one character at a time so you have to buy a second account to train an alt at the same time as your main.
Maxing basic skills takes days while maxxing more advanced and/or specialized skills can take a month or more. EVE balances this out in that the bonuses for maxing out a skill are really not that significant and the early ranks (3/5) train fairly quick. Diminishing returns means that maxing out most skills is just not worth it.
Yes. Eve has 5 levels for every skill and you have a 24 hour queue that you can line skills up to train. So, as long as the next level is queued up, it will train whether you are on or not.
Eve only allows three characters on an account and only one character can be training at any given time.
Why doesn't any game do that. That would sort of deprecate the need for a skill system I suppose. I imagine this is a bigger debate about design decisions overall and could be it's own conversation. Personally, I like that not everyone is the same and specialization is something you work toward. This certainly helps create an interdependace between players as I see it.
Depends on the skill. Skills have training multipliers that affect the total time to max. Also, your attributes affect how quickly you train. For example, Frigates might use Perception as a primary attribute and Willpower as a secondary. If you have those two beefed up, you will train faster then someone with Intelligence and Memory stacked. You get one "respec' per year to adjust your attribute points and Learning skills can also add attribute points. (New accounts get two respecs right out of the gate)
Maybe that's a bit simplified, but I think it covers the questions you asked.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Maxing out all skills in EvE would take you some 15 years realtime currently.
Each skill has 5 levels and the first 3-4 levels are trained up fast, but then it get's.... very slow in some cases. Training up battleship from level 4 to level 5 for example takes some 20 days realtime.
In EvE the skillsystem allows you to train up whatever skills you want, but it forces you to specialize at the same time, if you want to be good at something.
Alot of people hate it, but it's one of the best advancement-sytems I've come across during the last 10 years actually, as it allows people to advance, who have a real life going on.
There's still grinding in the game for money (ISK), but it's not as bad as grinding gold in WoW.
When I started playing EVE in 2005 it was estimated that it would take over 6 years to get all skills to max. Since that time CCP has added many, many more skills.
"Why not just give everyone max skill right out of the gate?"
Because there are other genres that offer no character development. Why would CCP want an MMORPG that has no character progression whatsoever? That wouldn't make any sense.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I think the reason EVE's system works so well is because the skill training system is in line with the technological theme.
In a time like our own, technology requires a large degree of theoretical expertise. It requires a lot of "book learning" in the classroom, and the real-time skill training system in EVE replicates this well.
But this was not how skills were taught in the ancient days when education was more of a practical exercise than a theoretical one. Many couldn't read, and the few who did didn't learn practical skills through books. They learned by doing, not by sitting through lectures taking notes.
So while EVE's real time skill system may work in a fantasy setting, does it really make players feel like they are in a fantasy setting?
I'm not sure that does. By the same token, does that kind of thing really matter for the majority players? Not sure, but I know it matters for many.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
But there could be a more ancient context they can throw this in. Why can't your character be known as practicing these tasks when you're offline. Practice does take time and it's just task repitition when you think of it. This can help eliminate mundane activities that players don't want to do like "leveling" your crafting. I think this could work as part of a progression system explained in this way and not a full one.
And who's to say our heroes weren't provided with b asic literacy trainnig? I want to hope my hero can read =(
You can only train 1 character at the same time per account.
You gain Skill points in real-time. Each skill has 5 trainable levels and Rank which is a training difficulty multiplier.
For Rank 1 skills you need Skill points as following:
level 1 - 250
level 2 - 1414
level 3 - 8000
level 4 - 45255
level 5 - 256000
The training time is further affected by your attributes(each skill use 2 attributes), implants and learning skills(skills affecting attributes).
The Skill point gain on a average/decent character is around 1800-2000 skill points per hour.
Some high rank skills might take over 30 days to get them from level 4 to level 5.
Why not giving out max skills?
Because how the requirements for ships and fittings are structured, it allows you to specialize so not 2 people can do the same.
Sure, this will be washed away with time because more skill points you gain, more things you will be able to do with your character but that is the reward for long months and years of training.
So would everyone in this Eve fanstasy hybrid be able to create a tank/healer/mage by training the right skills?
A tank/healer/mage can take a hell of a beating, dish out enourmous damange and heal. Bascially a WoW five man rolled into one.
I mention this because you could do this in UO.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Fantasy games typically have "magic" in one form or another. I don't think EVE's skill system would detract from the "believability" of any fantasy universe.
LOL besides, didn't WOW just introduce some sort of $25 sparkly unicorn? Personally I think realism in the fantasy genre is pretty suspect as it is.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
No.
As I said before, the skill system is minor in EVE.
The skills only determine how well and what tools you can use - ships and their fittings.
The ship and fittings defines your role, not your skills and you can fly only 1 ship at a time.
It is more complex than OP is presenting...
With EVE's system, you got to think on a bigger level in terms of "roles". It's more like, can you be a tank/blacksmith/thief? It's a sandbox so it gives the players the tools and more variety in terms of interaction. Trading is as deep as combat is as deep as crafting is as deep as exploration etc.
Sure, you could be a tank/healer/mage, but you could also be subpar at all 3 roles as opposed to the guy who devoted all his time to only one role etc. And it won't be just tank or just healer or just mage, it's more like, would I be able to tank well if I trained in swords or would I have more defensive capabilities utilizing maces? It's more specific to the weapons and in EVE's case each ship, which can be applied in the same way as armor and magic etc.
The key defining thing though is, how would you acquire spells/abilities since EVE lets you do everything and the skills provided crazy amounts of bonuses or provided access to certain ships/equi[ment etc. I can see how equipment goes, but not exactly how abilities/spells/moves will go. This part would have to be tweaked and balanced, which will create much complications.
No.
As I said before, the skill system is minor in EVE.
The skills only determine how well and what tools you can use - ships and their fittings.
The ship and fittings defines your role, not your skills and you can fly only 1 ship at a time.
It is more complex than OP is presenting...
So you wouldn't train to cast a simple heal spell? How do you determine if someone can cast a heal spell?
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Fair enough. Perhaps players care more about cutting their grind than feeling like mastering blacksmithing. For those who want to get to max level, but don't want to play to max level, the conveniences of EVE's system outweigh visceral considerations.
And yet...
Why is it that I can conceive of an engineer with a master's degree in aerodynamics who has never actually built a plane...
But I can't conceive of a master blacksmith who has never worked a piece of iron?
I realize that the suspension of disbelief is necessary when playing MMOs. But the game has to help some. Otherwise, the game just doesn't feel legit.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
No.
As I said before, the skill system is minor in EVE.
The skills only determine how well and what tools you can use - ships and their fittings.
The ship and fittings defines your role, not your skills and you can fly only 1 ship at a time.
It is more complex than OP is presenting...
So you wouldn't train to cast a simple heal spell? How do you determine if someone can cast a heal spell?
In EVE, a ship is built ideally to fulfill a specific role which consists of mainly 1 thing. However, the ship is a shell of what it should be doing, it needs the right tools to do them. Thats what equipment is for to provide first the function for that role, but also for bonuses for said role and also survivability. Ships require specific skills. The equipment require another set of skills, each type of tool, requires a different skill.
Some examples of roles Im talking about would be: DPS, Damage Prevention, Snaring Enemies, Healing other ships, Large Cargo Trading, Small Cargo Trading, Trading in dangerous places, Mining, Ice Mining .each role can only be fulfilled by a single ship. Now imagine if you owned all those ships but you need to have the necessary skills to not only fly them, but to sufficiently fulfill those roles as well AND survive/not get blown up.
So EVE doesnt have moves traditionally that fantasy games have, they utilize equipment that do 1 specific thing. This is why its all complicated
Well, let's say in order to "practice" blacksmithy offline (this is why I said too, when put in my previous context, this could only work as a part of a complete progression system, not to be relied on as the whole system), you would need the ingots in your bag and you have to log off next to a forge.
Obviously, if you are off fighting bad guys or running around on your toon, you will not be practicing your blacksmithy.
In addition, what if you could practice blacksmithy manually or also be provided with this offline progression system as well. Maybe offline crafting would lead to generic items but online crafting would lead to fully customizable sword and hilt type crafting.
I can see this becoming plausible and believable/realistic and these are fairly simple implementations that is within the realm of technology. Afterall, its a set of frames and numbers is all you reallly would need.
EDIT: another example for combat could require you to logoff with a sword equipped and near a training dummy (paid/crafted by yourself) but while practicing the sword wand dummy will wear awawy and could break, which could shorthand your offline progression or make it harder. Now you'll need to consider durability of swords (that can break permanently) and also dummies and make sure it can last long enough to the next day. These are just ideas to add for varying dynamics and applications of this idea.