EverQuest and Final Fantasy had higher subscription rates than most of the others combined. EverQuest dropped in popularity the moment EverQuest 2 came out - obviously people were jumping over the try the new game. No doubt they were disappointed with the WoW-esque approach, didn't go back to original EverQuest and have been hovering around ever since.
Everquest 2 was released around the same time as WoW. We see Everquests subscriptions plummet and, crucially, not recover. The important question is why didn't they recover? Did 250,000 players suddenly decide to completely quit the genre?
I don't think that's likely and there is one rather obvious possibility. Perhaps they preferred the new approach and continued playing either EQ2 or WoW? Hard to say, but I think it's very likely.
If you take a time-out from playing a game you enjoy to test drive a new game and don't like it, then why wouldn't you go back to the game that you enjoy?
I wonder how many MMO players that were hooked on EQ have left the genre completely after the WoW phenomenon... Anyone know what the exit rate is of players that quit and never come back? Life issues, maturity, and other factors can lead to someone picking up other hobbies or simply getting tired of playing computer games. It would be interesting to see how many players the genre gains and loses in a given year.
I wonder how many MMO players that were hooked on EQ have left the genre completely after the WoW phenomenon... Anyone know what the exit rate is of players that quit and never come back? Life issues, maturity, and other factors can lead to someone picking up other hobbies or simply getting tired of playing computer games. It would be interesting to see how many players the genre gains and loses in a given year.
Never seen any figures on it, but I really don't think that many people do quit completely.
There's something compelling about the MMORPG genre. Once you've experienced gaming as part of an active community with such a large population it's difficult to adjust to an offline single player game. Just look at how many people there are on this site that profess not to play MMOs but they still come back to post about the genre.
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
"Ah, saudosismo!"
Why go back to the past? aren't we suppose to move forward? Nowdays MMo have some problems and we see alot of "world play" but that's not a reason to go back. If we wanted those days back we would be playing DFO or MO.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
EverQuest and Final Fantasy had higher subscription rates than most of the others combined. EverQuest dropped in popularity the moment EverQuest 2 came out - obviously people were jumping over the try the new game. No doubt they were disappointed with the WoW-esque approach, didn't go back to original EverQuest and have been hovering around ever since.
Everquest 2 was released around the same time as WoW. We see Everquests subscriptions plummet and, crucially, not recover. The important question is why didn't they recover? Did 250,000 players suddenly decide to completely quit the genre?
I don't think that's likely and there is one rather obvious possibility. Perhaps they preferred the new approach and continued playing either EQ2 or WoW? Hard to say, but I think it's very likely.
If you take a time-out from playing a game you enjoy to test drive a new game and don't like it, then why wouldn't you go back to the game that you enjoy?
A lot of it can be attributed to the fact that once the newer games such as WoW hit the older games changed dramatically (specially SOE games, SWG for example). These changes pretty much either ruined the game for these people or totally broke a lot of the systems and mechanics in the hastey attempt the developers made to prevent any form of slipping in subscription numbers.
When EQ2 launched the game was almost unplayable on a lot of machines. A little after WoW launched SOE decided to change a lot of the gameplay in an attempt to appeal to people who liked WoW, without really focusing on the fact that the game suffered in the performance department.
SWG was a game that had a healthy, happy playerbase of more than 200k subscriptions (which for the day was pretty damn impressive, and to this day is still nothing to sneeze at). Again, to appeal to the large numbers WoW was getting they pulled a 180 on the game, breaking a lot of what made the fans happy.
EQ was thrown into the fray as wll, with SOE altering a lot of the game to help retain and grow subscription numbers while chasing the numbers WoW had. Again this turned off a lot of players because it caused a lot of what the game had to be broken.
Other companies just pretty much stopped expanding on their current games and focused on making new games that would compete directly with WoW for the large numbers.
A lot of people attempted to return to their older games, but those older games were changed drastically. Thats a reason why a lot of people just didn't go back, because it wasn't the same game they enjoyed.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I wonder how many MMO players that were hooked on EQ have left the genre completely after the WoW phenomenon... Anyone know what the exit rate is of players that quit and never come back? Life issues, maturity, and other factors can lead to someone picking up other hobbies or simply getting tired of playing computer games. It would be interesting to see how many players the genre gains and loses in a given year.
insanex
Maturity? When do people reach maturity? 70? Computer gamers are adults, the majority are in late 20's now, with many in 30's and 40's. Most devs are in their 30's, the majority of them according the GDC. People that have played video games all their lives (back to the 80's) simply don't get tired or too mature to play them... apart from the ones designed for kids.
I wonder how many MMO players that were hooked on EQ have left the genre completely after the WoW phenomenon... Anyone know what the exit rate is of players that quit and never come back? Life issues, maturity, and other factors can lead to someone picking up other hobbies or simply getting tired of playing computer games. It would be interesting to see how many players the genre gains and loses in a given year.
Never seen any figures on it, but I really don't think that many people do quit completely.
There's something compelling about the MMORPG genre. Once you've experienced gaming as part of an active community with such a large population it's difficult to adjust to an offline single player game. Just look at how many people there are on this site that profess not to play MMOs but they still come back to post about the genre.
Once you go MMO you're changed for life.
Agreed with this.
Also a lot of people, even when bored silly of the game, will stick with it for months/years due to the friends they have/made.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
I wonder how many MMO players that were hooked on EQ have left the genre completely after the WoW phenomenon... Anyone know what the exit rate is of players that quit and never come back? Life issues, maturity, and other factors can lead to someone picking up other hobbies or simply getting tired of playing computer games. It would be interesting to see how many players the genre gains and loses in a given year.
insanex
Maturity? When do people reach maturity? 70? Computer gamers are adults, the majority are in late 20's now, with many in 30's and 40's. Most devs are in their 30's, the majority of them according the GDC. People that have played video games all their lives (back to the 80's) simply don't get tired or too mature to play them... apart from the ones designed for kids.
Dingdingding! lol I was wondering when someone would comment on that remark. Let me qualify it by saying that maturity is a personal thing. I know that I feel personally that as I mature, playing MMOs 4 hours a day like I used to is not the thing to do. But I can't say anything for anyone else. I was just pointing out that it's possible that some people in their own view of themselves outgrow MMOs. I've seen some of them post here, mostly in the "I used to be an addict, now I'm free" threads.
I wonder how many MMO players that were hooked on EQ have left the genre completely after the WoW phenomenon... Anyone know what the exit rate is of players that quit and never come back? Life issues, maturity, and other factors can lead to someone picking up other hobbies or simply getting tired of playing computer games. It would be interesting to see how many players the genre gains and loses in a given year.
Never seen any figures on it, but I really don't think that many people do quit completely.
There's something compelling about the MMORPG genre. Once you've experienced gaming as part of an active community with such a large population it's difficult to adjust to an offline single player game. Just look at how many people there are on this site that profess not to play MMOs but they still come back to post about the genre.
Once you go MMO you're changed for life.
Agreed with this.
Also a lot of people, even when bored silly of the game, will stick with it for months/years due to the friends they have/made.
That is my sentiment too, though it is based on personal experience rather than numbers or statistics. I just wondered if anyone did have hard numbers on it.
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
"Ah, saudosismo!"
Why go back to the past? aren't we suppose to move forward? Nowdays MMo have some problems and we see alot of "world play" but that's not a reason to go back. If we wanted those days back we would be playing DFO or MO.
Not entirely true.
DFO and MO are pretty much based on the old school UO model, one that many old school players weren't too interested in (not saying no one was, but there were a few who weren't) because of the FFA PvP aspect of the game. Some of us prefer not having to deal with such a PvP mechanic, and would rather play a game that focused more on co-op PvE gameplay. Thats why you see a lot of people referring to a game like EQ as their 'old school' standard.
But what a lot of old school MMOers agree on is that they want the 'challenge' back. They want the game to be difficult yet rewarding, not todays standard of rewarding everyone because they have a pulse (and in some cases the requirement of having said pulse is optional). Games where people learned to work and communicate with people, not work against and badmouth everyone. Where understanding your character and their abilities meant the difference success and failure because failure actually had some form of meaning as opposed to todays approach of failure leads to success (If at first you don't succeed, keep throwing yourself at the problem till you finally win because your not really risking anything to begin with anyway...).
They also want a game where its about having fun and not focusing on being '1st'. A game where every level and every area means something and has a lot to do within it, a game where the fun is seen at all levels. Not todays hammer out quests and get to end game as fast as possible because thats when the game really 'begins' type of game.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
"Ah, saudosismo!"
Why go back to the past? aren't we suppose to move forward? Nowdays MMo have some problems and we see alot of "world play" but that's not a reason to go back. If we wanted those days back we would be playing DFO or MO.
Not entirely true.
DFO and MO are pretty much based on the old school UO model, one that many old school players weren't too interested in (not saying no one was, but there were a few who weren't) because of the FFA PvP aspect of the game. Some of us prefer not having to deal with such a PvP mechanic, and would rather play a game that focused more on co-op PvE gameplay. Thats why you see a lot of people referring to a game like EQ as their 'old school' standard.
But what a lot of old school MMOers agree on is that they want the 'challenge' back. They want the game to be difficult yet rewarding, not todays standard of rewarding everyone because they have a pulse (and in some cases the requirement of having said pulse is optional). Games where people learned to work and communicate with people, not work against and badmouth everyone. Where understanding your character and their abilities meant the difference success and failure because failure actually had some form of meaning as opposed to todays approach of failure leads to success (If at first you don't succeed, keep throwing yourself at the problem till you finally win because your not really risking anything to begin with anyway...).
They also want a game where its about having fun and not focusing on being '1st'. A game where every level and every area means something and has a lot to do within it, a game where the fun is seen at all levels. Not todays hammer out quests and get to end game as fast as possible because thats when the game really 'begins' type of game.
Well said. The more I see of Guild Wars 2, I'm thinking it may provide the synergy between challenge, fun, social gameplay mechanics, and progress.
Face it, most of the people who played old school games ended up in WoW, their decline just correlates too well, both statistically and logically, with WoWs rise to be spurious. They didn't stop playing, and they might not be a interested as you think to join a new old school MMO. 500k waiting for an old school MMO? You wish..
And on the flip side, they might be very interested in joining a new old school MMO. Maybe they are playing WoW, but only because it's the best of a bad bunch. The only time we'll find out is when a new 'old school MMO' is actually released.
Everquest 2 was released around the same time as WoW. We see Everquests subscriptions plummet and, crucially, not recover. The important question is why didn't they recover? Did 250,000 players suddenly decide to completely quit the genre?
Speaking for myself, I dropped out of EverQuest at about the same time as the data on the graphs show everyone else did. I also tried EverQuest 2 and World of Warcraft, and a few others around the same time that I can't remember. I stuck with EQ2 for about a month before realising that it really wasn't for me. It felt so different to the original EQ, when I was really hoping for a version of the original with better graphics, sound and gameplay.
I tried World of Warcraft and that lasted less than a month too, as it all seemed so simplistic, with quests joined together to point you in a direct line from A-Z. I didn't like that, I always loved the freedom of original EQ, so I dropped out.
I did go back to original EverQuest after that, but after playing the new games it felt so dated and ugly. I just couldn't settle back into it. Imagine playing the original GTA after seeing GTA 4, it was along those lines. I tried game after game, City of Heroes, D&D Online, Lord of the Rings Online, and many others, but none of them were the game I was looking for - which was original EQ in a shiny packaging.
So that's why I never returned. And until now I haven't been in any MMO except for the odd beta and the occasional couple of weeks when Lord of the Rings Online updates. Hell, the last update took me 2 days to complete, then I was gone again. But oddly, I returned this month to EverQuest for the first time in years, and despite the dated graphics, the gameplay is still there. I've got a character to 65 with 250 AA's so far, and I'll continue to play it until something new comes out.
So, again, speaking for myself, I'm one of those people waiting around for a new old school game, and I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.
A lot of people attempted to return to their older games, but those older games were changed drastically. Thats a reason why a lot of people just didn't go back, because it wasn't the same game they enjoyed.
I can see the logic behind what you're saying. If the older games were so drastically changed as to be unrecognisable, then I could imagine some players being unable to adjust. I still think that UsualSuspect's argument is flawed in that he discounts the possibility that former EQ players would choose not to return because they preferred the WoW-esque approach.
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
"Ah, saudosismo!"
Why go back to the past? aren't we suppose to move forward? Nowdays MMo have some problems and we see alot of "world play" but that's not a reason to go back. If we wanted those days back we would be playing DFO or MO.
Not entirely true.
DFO and MO are pretty much based on the old school UO model, one that many old school players weren't too interested in (not saying no one was, but there were a few who weren't) because of the FFA PvP aspect of the game. Some of us prefer not having to deal with such a PvP mechanic, and would rather play a game that focused more on co-op PvE gameplay. Thats why you see a lot of people referring to a game like EQ as their 'old school' standard.
But what a lot of old school MMOers agree on is that they want the 'challenge' back. They want the game to be difficult yet rewarding, not todays standard of rewarding everyone because they have a pulse (and in some cases the requirement of having said pulse is optional). Games where people learned to work and communicate with people, not work against and badmouth everyone. Where understanding your character and their abilities meant the difference success and failure because failure actually had some form of meaning as opposed to todays approach of failure leads to success (If at first you don't succeed, keep throwing yourself at the problem till you finally win because your not really risking anything to begin with anyway...).
They also want a game where its about having fun and not focusing on being '1st'. A game where every level and every area means something and has a lot to do within it, a game where the fun is seen at all levels. Not todays hammer out quests and get to end game as fast as possible because thats when the game really 'begins' type of game.
Well said. The more I see of Guild Wars 2, I'm thinking it may provide the synergy between challenge, fun, social gameplay mechanics, and progress.
insanex
Aye.
Sadly when people see 'old schoolers' talk about challenge or wanting something akin to the MMOs of the pre-WoW area, they automatically assume we want 'EQ/UO' back. They fail to see (or choose not to) that what we want is something of a bit more meaningful experience, a bit more of the RPG back in the MMORPG because we are tired of the post WoW MMOG's that get made every year.
I see this coming in games such as FFXIV. The game isnt aiming for 10 year old gameplay, but rather a slightly more challenging and meaningful experience than what post WoW has offered. Hopefully it will finally show that the viability is there.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
A lot of people attempted to return to their older games, but those older games were changed drastically. Thats a reason why a lot of people just didn't go back, because it wasn't the same game they enjoyed.
Also, with so many people dropping out of a game at once, that's going to damage the community. I'd imagine guilds disbanded, old friends vanished and options became smaller or harder to reach. If I went back to EverQuest, for example, to find my raiding guild had dwindled down to 5 players and all my old friends had gone, then I'm not sure I would want to stay around.
Everquest 2 was released around the same time as WoW. We see Everquests subscriptions plummet and, crucially, not recover. The important question is why didn't they recover? Did 250,000 players suddenly decide to completely quit the genre?
Speaking for myself, I dropped out of EverQuest at about the same time as the data on the graphs show everyone else did. I also tried EverQuest 2 and World of Warcraft, and a few others around the same time that I can't remember. I stuck with EQ2 for about a month before realising that it really wasn't for me. It felt so different to the original EQ, when I was really hoping for a version of the original with better graphics, sound and gameplay.
I tried World of Warcraft and that lasted less than a month too, as it all seemed so simplistic, with quests joined together to point you in a direct line from A-Z. I didn't like that, I always loved the freedom of original EQ, so I dropped out.
I did go back to original EverQuest after that, but after playing the new games it felt so dated and ugly. I just couldn't settle back into it. Imagine playing the original GTA after seeing GTA 4, it was along those lines. I tried game after game, City of Heroes, D&D Online, Lord of the Rings Online, and many others, but none of them were the game I was looking for - which was original EQ in a shiny packaging.
So that's why I never returned. And until now I haven't been in any MMO except for the odd beta and the occasional couple of weeks when Lord of the Rings Online updates. Hell, the last update took me 2 days to complete, then I was gone again. But oddly, I returned this month to EverQuest for the first time in years, and despite the dated graphics, the gameplay is still there. I've got a character to 65 with 250 AA's so far, and I'll continue to play it until something new comes out.
So, again, speaking for myself, I'm one of those people waiting around for a new old school game, and I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.
Fair enough, my experience is almost a polar opposite.
I was playing old-school games such as UO, SWG and EQ when the newer games came out. Quest-driven progression came as a breath of fresh air for me as I hated camp grinding with a passion.
Who would like to see some of the old school MMO features come back to MMOs today? Does anyone even care?
I mean features like Ultima Online offered. I think nowadays MMOs are to instaned and not enough World play. Does anyone know, miss, or want to see a MMO make a livley world where you are free to do w/e and create your own story?
How does everyone else feel about MMOs today and how the used to be? Are you happy with how they are or would you like to see them good ol' features come back to life?
"Ah, saudosismo!"
Why go back to the past? aren't we suppose to move forward? Nowdays MMo have some problems and we see alot of "world play" but that's not a reason to go back. If we wanted those days back we would be playing DFO or MO.
Not entirely true.
DFO and MO are pretty much based on the old school UO model, one that many old school players weren't too interested in (not saying no one was, but there were a few who weren't) because of the FFA PvP aspect of the game. Some of us prefer not having to deal with such a PvP mechanic, and would rather play a game that focused more on co-op PvE gameplay. Thats why you see a lot of people referring to a game like EQ as their 'old school' standard.
But what a lot of old school MMOers agree on is that they want the 'challenge' back. They want the game to be difficult yet rewarding, not todays standard of rewarding everyone because they have a pulse (and in some cases the requirement of having said pulse is optional). Games where people learned to work and communicate with people, not work against and badmouth everyone. Where understanding your character and their abilities meant the difference success and failure because failure actually had some form of meaning as opposed to todays approach of failure leads to success (If at first you don't succeed, keep throwing yourself at the problem till you finally win because your not really risking anything to begin with anyway...).
They also want a game where its about having fun and not focusing on being '1st'. A game where every level and every area means something and has a lot to do within it, a game where the fun is seen at all levels. Not todays hammer out quests and get to end game as fast as possible because thats when the game really 'begins' type of game.
Well said. The more I see of Guild Wars 2, I'm thinking it may provide the synergy between challenge, fun, social gameplay mechanics, and progress.
insanex
Aye.
Sadly when people see 'old schoolers' talk about challenge or wanting something akin to the MMOs of the pre-WoW area, they automatically assume we want 'EQ/UO' back. They fail to see (or choose not to) that what we want is something of a bit more meaningful experience, a bit more of the RPG back in the MMORPG because we are tired of the post WoW MMOG's that get made every year.
I see this coming in games such as FFXIV. The game isnt aiming for 10 year old gameplay, but rather a slightly more challenging and meaningful experience than what post WoW has offered. Hopefully it will finally show that the viability is there.
I agree. Most newer MMO players don't have the realization of what aspects of EQ, UO, AC we liked. This comes as a simple bit of ignorance of what the game is. That's why I think some newer players are so defensive. They look at WoW and simply compare it to our descriptions of games like EQ, and heck, if I was playing WoW and had never played EQ I'd probably respond that way too.
Dingdingding! lol I was wondering when someone would comment on that remark. Let me qualify it by saying that maturity is a personal thing. I know that I feel personally that as I mature, playing MMOs 4 hours a day like I used to is not the thing to do. But I can't say anything for anyone else. I was just pointing out that it's possible that some people in their own view of themselves outgrow MMOs. I've seen some of them post here, mostly in the "I used to be an addict, now I'm free" threads.
Thanks for the comment Daywolf.
insanex
I'll tell you what though, I'm one that has been playing since the 80's, only took a break for a few years from about age 20 to 23. Things are going to change again. For the better or for the worst, I can't say, it's always been up and down, left and right, in and out all along. Over the past few years, there has been a surge in people joining the ranks of developers in training, and moving into indie games. Indie tools and source code engines are vastly improving and becoming very affordable. Vendors have been seeing this, and have begun to try to lure these new devs to resources that they have been supplying to AAA productions for years (like physics engines and environment systems). Either it will continue to gain momentum, or at the next crash/extended dry spell, they will rise from the ashes, just as has happened before such as with MUD's.
Face it, most of the people who played old school games ended up in WoW, their decline just correlates too well, both statistically and logically, with WoWs rise to be spurious. They didn't stop playing, and they might not be a interested as you think to join a new old school MMO. 500k waiting for an old school MMO? You wish..
And on the flip side, they might be very interested in joining a new old school MMO. Maybe they are playing WoW, but only because it's the best of a bad bunch. The only time we'll find out is when a new 'old school MMO' is actually released.
Everquest 2 was released around the same time as WoW. We see Everquests subscriptions plummet and, crucially, not recover. The important question is why didn't they recover? Did 250,000 players suddenly decide to completely quit the genre?
Speaking for myself, I dropped out of EverQuest at about the same time as the data on the graphs show everyone else did. I also tried EverQuest 2 and World of Warcraft, and a few others around the same time that I can't remember. I stuck with EQ2 for about a month before realising that it really wasn't for me. It felt so different to the original EQ, when I was really hoping for a version of the original with better graphics, sound and gameplay.
I tried World of Warcraft and that lasted less than a month too, as it all seemed so simplistic, with quests joined together to point you in a direct line from A-Z. I didn't like that, I always loved the freedom of original EQ, so I dropped out.
I did go back to original EverQuest after that, but after playing the new games it felt so dated and ugly. I just couldn't settle back into it. Imagine playing the original GTA after seeing GTA 4, it was along those lines. I tried game after game, City of Heroes, D&D Online, Lord of the Rings Online, and many others, but none of them were the game I was looking for - which was original EQ in a shiny packaging.
So that's why I never returned. And until now I haven't been in any MMO except for the odd beta and the occasional couple of weeks when Lord of the Rings Online updates. Hell, the last update took me 2 days to complete, then I was gone again. But oddly, I returned this month to EverQuest for the first time in years, and despite the dated graphics, the gameplay is still there. I've got a character to 65 with 250 AA's so far, and I'll continue to play it until something new comes out.
So, again, speaking for myself, I'm one of those people waiting around for a new old school game, and I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.
No, you're not. And WORLD WIDE there are most certainly 500K people who enjoyed that gameplay (and want to see the flaws smoothed out) that would come to a new old school game. They may not be as boisterous and loud mouthed (which is why people don't think they exist), but that was due to the times and how they grew up. And even if it only attracted around 300K it'd still be on par with the top other P2P games out there. LOTRO has around that same number I'm told and it is #2 on the P2P chart behind WoW.
And games like DF and MO don't cut it for mass appeal within this group. For one they aren't made by AAA companies with the basics of enough cash to see the project to finish with ALL promised features and looking like a modern day title should. Secondly the way in which DF was released (excluding large portions of the world with no localization; you had to roll on a EU server) wasn't really a desired way and turned some folks off from the start. There were certainly plenty of documented undesirables with respect to MO and how they do/did things as well. The point is that you don't have these kinds of hiccups with AAA themeparks because they have the money in the first place to do them right.
With AAA themeparks these days it's more a matter of the direction/vision of the Game Designer on the dev team than "that project didn't have the funds to start with".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Well said. The more I see of Guild Wars 2, I'm thinking it may provide the synergy between challenge, fun, social gameplay mechanics, and progress.
insanex
Aye.
Sadly when people see 'old schoolers' talk about challenge or wanting something akin to the MMOs of the pre-WoW area, they automatically assume we want 'EQ/UO' back. They fail to see (or choose not to) that what we want is something of a bit more meaningful experience, a bit more of the RPG back in the MMORPG because we are tired of the post WoW MMOG's that get made every year.
I see this coming in games such as FFXIV. The game isnt aiming for 10 year old gameplay, but rather a slightly more challenging and meaningful experience than what post WoW has offered. Hopefully it will finally show that the viability is there.
I agree. Most newer MMO players don't have the realization of what aspects of EQ, UO, AC we liked. This comes as a simple bit of ignorance of what the game is. That's why I think some newer players are so defensive. They look at WoW and simply compare it to our descriptions of games like EQ, and heck, if I was playing WoW and had never played EQ I'd probably respond that way too.
insanex
Aye.
Funny thing is sooner or later these players will be in the same boat we are, talking about how newer games just don't capture the feel of WoW and have lost a lot of what MMORPGs were. Even the ones who spout the 'Adapt to change or STFU' will be the ones in a few years complaining about days long gone.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Secondly, I would like old school to come back to give us more choices in gaming selections. We've had plenty of "new school" games that've come out over the past few years. These new school games obviously model themselves after some successful MMO's, especially WoW. And honestly there's nothing wrong with that. Anybody who runs a business and want to make money would try to model themselves after the biggest and most successful ($$$) company out there.
But what would be cool is for some of the old classics to get revamped as sequels, with today's graphics, today's engine, today's marketing. Games like EQ1, AC1, DAOC, UO are all classic old school games I would like to see revamped with today's technology. EQ2 models after new school games so that one doesn't count. Same with AC2, the game doesn't even exist anymore. But gamers really do deserve some revamped old school games as choices on the market. Companies like SOE should do it as a "thanks" to all those 450k+ subscribers that got their company started and made them into what they are today. Mythic should do a DAOC 2 just as a thanks to loyal followers that gave their company a chance through DAOC.
I don't necessary want the genre to change into old school, but rather see some old school revamps so we have more choices on the market for everybody.
Secondly, I would like old school to come back to give us more choices in gaming selections. We've had plenty of "new school" games that've come out over the past few years. These new school games obviously model themselves after some successful MMO's, especially WoW. And honestly there's nothing wrong with that. Anybody who runs a business and want to make money would try to model themselves after the biggest and most successful ($$$) company out there.
But what would be cool is for some of the old classics to get revamped as sequels, with today's graphics, today's engine, today's marketing. Games like EQ1, AC1, DAOC, UO are all classic old school games I would like to see revamped with today's technology. EQ2 models after new school games so that one doesn't count. Same with AC2, the game doesn't even exist anymore. But gamers really do deserve some revamped old school games as choices on the market. Companies like SOE should do it as a "thanks" to all those 450k+ subscribers that got their company started and made them into what they are today. Mythic should do a DAOC 2 just as a thanks to loyal followers that gave their company a chance through DAOC.
I don't necessary want the genre to change into old school, but rather see some old school revamps so we have more choices on the market for everybody.
I can agree with some of that, but to make the case to the shareholders, a strong, lively, and loyal playerbase needs to already be in place. While I think there are still many loyal EQ and AC players, it may not be enough to revamp the engine and redo all the zones.
I think that an ideal scenario would be a game that has the challenge of some of the old school games we're discussing, but instead of long stretches of grinding, break the game up into smaller, bite-size chunks. LoTRO is really good at that with the story/epic quests. There are so many small pieces to the whole and each usually gives a decent reward, but the end quest for a chapter or book requires a bit more time and gives an awesome reward. EQ had some quests with really good rewards, but some of the quests took so long that you either had to spend the couple of hours to do it and move on, or log off and lose your progress. Even a stateful progress save would be good - something that saves you right where you are in a quest and lets you come back to it later. Us old-schoolers don't have the time to play as much per day as we used to, so we need to bite off smaller pieces.
Funny thing is sooner or later these players will be in the same boat we are, talking about how newer games just don't capture the feel of WoW and have lost a lot of what MMORPGs were. Even the ones who spout the 'Adapt to change or STFU' will be the ones in a few years complaining about days long gone.
Although Blizzard has not gone out of business yet. I don't think they are ready to get out of the mmog business anytime soon. The Blizzard fanboys will get what they want, as it has been since Diablo. They are set for the next decade, imo. It's just all the AAA alternatives may die. I think if Blizzard even made a second life social type game, they would flock to that just the same.
Funny thing is sooner or later these players will be in the same boat we are, talking about how newer games just don't capture the feel of WoW and have lost a lot of what MMORPGs were. Even the ones who spout the 'Adapt to change or STFU' will be the ones in a few years complaining about days long gone.
Although Blizzard has not gone out of business yet. I don't think they are ready to get out of the mmog business anytime soon. The Blizzard fanboys will get what they want, as it has been since Diablo. They are set for the next decade, imo. It's just all the AAA alternatives may die. I think if Blizzard even made a second life social type game, they would flock to that just the same.
I don't know about that, Wolf. Blizzard has some strength in its brand name, but would the name alone be enough, especially if it was not set in the Warcraft universe?
I still am wondering what this "next-gen MMO" is that Blizzard was hiring for awhile back...
Secondly, I would like old school to come back to give us more choices in gaming selections. We've had plenty of "new school" games that've come out over the past few years. These new school games obviously model themselves after some successful MMO's, especially WoW. And honestly there's nothing wrong with that. Anybody who runs a business and want to make money would try to model themselves after the biggest and most successful ($$$) company out there.
But what would be cool is for some of the old classics to get revamped as sequels, with today's graphics, today's engine, today's marketing. Games like EQ1, AC1, DAOC, UO are all classic old school games I would like to see revamped with today's technology. EQ2 models after new school games so that one doesn't count. Same with AC2, the game doesn't even exist anymore. But gamers really do deserve some revamped old school games as choices on the market. Companies like SOE should do it as a "thanks" to all those 450k+ subscribers that got their company started and made them into what they are today. Mythic should do a DAOC 2 just as a thanks to loyal followers that gave their company a chance through DAOC.
I don't necessary want the genre to change into old school, but rather see some old school revamps so we have more choices on the market for everybody.
This.
People will try to tell us that we have a ton of choices in the genre today, but we really don't. What we have today are games being built around the WoW style of MMO (fast progression, easy to obtain rewards with little to no risk, linear gameplay and heavy emphasis on end game loot) or a selection of older MMOs who are now 10+ years old.
Our so called 'choices' remind me of what Henry Ford said when people asked about choice of colors with the Model-T:
"People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black."
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Comments
I wonder how many MMO players that were hooked on EQ have left the genre completely after the WoW phenomenon... Anyone know what the exit rate is of players that quit and never come back? Life issues, maturity, and other factors can lead to someone picking up other hobbies or simply getting tired of playing computer games. It would be interesting to see how many players the genre gains and loses in a given year.
insanex
Just because it's old, doesn't mean it's classic, and just because it's new doesn't mean it's better.
insanex
Never seen any figures on it, but I really don't think that many people do quit completely.
There's something compelling about the MMORPG genre. Once you've experienced gaming as part of an active community with such a large population it's difficult to adjust to an offline single player game. Just look at how many people there are on this site that profess not to play MMOs but they still come back to post about the genre.
Once you go MMO you're changed for life.
"Ah, saudosismo!"
Why go back to the past? aren't we suppose to move forward? Nowdays MMo have some problems and we see alot of "world play" but that's not a reason to go back. If we wanted those days back we would be playing DFO or MO.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
A lot of it can be attributed to the fact that once the newer games such as WoW hit the older games changed dramatically (specially SOE games, SWG for example). These changes pretty much either ruined the game for these people or totally broke a lot of the systems and mechanics in the hastey attempt the developers made to prevent any form of slipping in subscription numbers.
When EQ2 launched the game was almost unplayable on a lot of machines. A little after WoW launched SOE decided to change a lot of the gameplay in an attempt to appeal to people who liked WoW, without really focusing on the fact that the game suffered in the performance department.
SWG was a game that had a healthy, happy playerbase of more than 200k subscriptions (which for the day was pretty damn impressive, and to this day is still nothing to sneeze at). Again, to appeal to the large numbers WoW was getting they pulled a 180 on the game, breaking a lot of what made the fans happy.
EQ was thrown into the fray as wll, with SOE altering a lot of the game to help retain and grow subscription numbers while chasing the numbers WoW had. Again this turned off a lot of players because it caused a lot of what the game had to be broken.
Other companies just pretty much stopped expanding on their current games and focused on making new games that would compete directly with WoW for the large numbers.
A lot of people attempted to return to their older games, but those older games were changed drastically. Thats a reason why a lot of people just didn't go back, because it wasn't the same game they enjoyed.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Maturity? When do people reach maturity? 70? Computer gamers are adults, the majority are in late 20's now, with many in 30's and 40's. Most devs are in their 30's, the majority of them according the GDC. People that have played video games all their lives (back to the 80's) simply don't get tired or too mature to play them... apart from the ones designed for kids.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
Agreed with this.
Also a lot of people, even when bored silly of the game, will stick with it for months/years due to the friends they have/made.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Dingdingding! lol I was wondering when someone would comment on that remark. Let me qualify it by saying that maturity is a personal thing. I know that I feel personally that as I mature, playing MMOs 4 hours a day like I used to is not the thing to do. But I can't say anything for anyone else. I was just pointing out that it's possible that some people in their own view of themselves outgrow MMOs. I've seen some of them post here, mostly in the "I used to be an addict, now I'm free" threads.
Thanks for the comment Daywolf.
insanex
That is my sentiment too, though it is based on personal experience rather than numbers or statistics. I just wondered if anyone did have hard numbers on it.
insanex
Not entirely true.
DFO and MO are pretty much based on the old school UO model, one that many old school players weren't too interested in (not saying no one was, but there were a few who weren't) because of the FFA PvP aspect of the game. Some of us prefer not having to deal with such a PvP mechanic, and would rather play a game that focused more on co-op PvE gameplay. Thats why you see a lot of people referring to a game like EQ as their 'old school' standard.
But what a lot of old school MMOers agree on is that they want the 'challenge' back. They want the game to be difficult yet rewarding, not todays standard of rewarding everyone because they have a pulse (and in some cases the requirement of having said pulse is optional). Games where people learned to work and communicate with people, not work against and badmouth everyone. Where understanding your character and their abilities meant the difference success and failure because failure actually had some form of meaning as opposed to todays approach of failure leads to success (If at first you don't succeed, keep throwing yourself at the problem till you finally win because your not really risking anything to begin with anyway...).
They also want a game where its about having fun and not focusing on being '1st'. A game where every level and every area means something and has a lot to do within it, a game where the fun is seen at all levels. Not todays hammer out quests and get to end game as fast as possible because thats when the game really 'begins' type of game.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Well said. The more I see of Guild Wars 2, I'm thinking it may provide the synergy between challenge, fun, social gameplay mechanics, and progress.
insanex
Face it, most of the people who played old school games ended up in WoW, their decline just correlates too well, both statistically and logically, with WoWs rise to be spurious. They didn't stop playing, and they might not be a interested as you think to join a new old school MMO. 500k waiting for an old school MMO? You wish..
And on the flip side, they might be very interested in joining a new old school MMO. Maybe they are playing WoW, but only because it's the best of a bad bunch. The only time we'll find out is when a new 'old school MMO' is actually released.
Everquest 2 was released around the same time as WoW. We see Everquests subscriptions plummet and, crucially, not recover. The important question is why didn't they recover? Did 250,000 players suddenly decide to completely quit the genre?
Speaking for myself, I dropped out of EverQuest at about the same time as the data on the graphs show everyone else did. I also tried EverQuest 2 and World of Warcraft, and a few others around the same time that I can't remember. I stuck with EQ2 for about a month before realising that it really wasn't for me. It felt so different to the original EQ, when I was really hoping for a version of the original with better graphics, sound and gameplay.
I tried World of Warcraft and that lasted less than a month too, as it all seemed so simplistic, with quests joined together to point you in a direct line from A-Z. I didn't like that, I always loved the freedom of original EQ, so I dropped out.
I did go back to original EverQuest after that, but after playing the new games it felt so dated and ugly. I just couldn't settle back into it. Imagine playing the original GTA after seeing GTA 4, it was along those lines. I tried game after game, City of Heroes, D&D Online, Lord of the Rings Online, and many others, but none of them were the game I was looking for - which was original EQ in a shiny packaging.
So that's why I never returned. And until now I haven't been in any MMO except for the odd beta and the occasional couple of weeks when Lord of the Rings Online updates. Hell, the last update took me 2 days to complete, then I was gone again. But oddly, I returned this month to EverQuest for the first time in years, and despite the dated graphics, the gameplay is still there. I've got a character to 65 with 250 AA's so far, and I'll continue to play it until something new comes out.
So, again, speaking for myself, I'm one of those people waiting around for a new old school game, and I'm fairly certain I'm not the only one.
I can see the logic behind what you're saying. If the older games were so drastically changed as to be unrecognisable, then I could imagine some players being unable to adjust. I still think that UsualSuspect's argument is flawed in that he discounts the possibility that former EQ players would choose not to return because they preferred the WoW-esque approach.
Aye.
Sadly when people see 'old schoolers' talk about challenge or wanting something akin to the MMOs of the pre-WoW area, they automatically assume we want 'EQ/UO' back. They fail to see (or choose not to) that what we want is something of a bit more meaningful experience, a bit more of the RPG back in the MMORPG because we are tired of the post WoW MMOG's that get made every year.
I see this coming in games such as FFXIV. The game isnt aiming for 10 year old gameplay, but rather a slightly more challenging and meaningful experience than what post WoW has offered. Hopefully it will finally show that the viability is there.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
A lot of people attempted to return to their older games, but those older games were changed drastically. Thats a reason why a lot of people just didn't go back, because it wasn't the same game they enjoyed.
Also, with so many people dropping out of a game at once, that's going to damage the community. I'd imagine guilds disbanded, old friends vanished and options became smaller or harder to reach. If I went back to EverQuest, for example, to find my raiding guild had dwindled down to 5 players and all my old friends had gone, then I'm not sure I would want to stay around.
Fair enough, my experience is almost a polar opposite.
I was playing old-school games such as UO, SWG and EQ when the newer games came out. Quest-driven progression came as a breath of fresh air for me as I hated camp grinding with a passion.
I agree. Most newer MMO players don't have the realization of what aspects of EQ, UO, AC we liked. This comes as a simple bit of ignorance of what the game is. That's why I think some newer players are so defensive. They look at WoW and simply compare it to our descriptions of games like EQ, and heck, if I was playing WoW and had never played EQ I'd probably respond that way too.
insanex
I'll tell you what though, I'm one that has been playing since the 80's, only took a break for a few years from about age 20 to 23. Things are going to change again. For the better or for the worst, I can't say, it's always been up and down, left and right, in and out all along. Over the past few years, there has been a surge in people joining the ranks of developers in training, and moving into indie games. Indie tools and source code engines are vastly improving and becoming very affordable. Vendors have been seeing this, and have begun to try to lure these new devs to resources that they have been supplying to AAA productions for years (like physics engines and environment systems). Either it will continue to gain momentum, or at the next crash/extended dry spell, they will rise from the ashes, just as has happened before such as with MUD's.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
No, you're not. And WORLD WIDE there are most certainly 500K people who enjoyed that gameplay (and want to see the flaws smoothed out) that would come to a new old school game. They may not be as boisterous and loud mouthed (which is why people don't think they exist), but that was due to the times and how they grew up. And even if it only attracted around 300K it'd still be on par with the top other P2P games out there. LOTRO has around that same number I'm told and it is #2 on the P2P chart behind WoW.
And games like DF and MO don't cut it for mass appeal within this group. For one they aren't made by AAA companies with the basics of enough cash to see the project to finish with ALL promised features and looking like a modern day title should. Secondly the way in which DF was released (excluding large portions of the world with no localization; you had to roll on a EU server) wasn't really a desired way and turned some folks off from the start. There were certainly plenty of documented undesirables with respect to MO and how they do/did things as well. The point is that you don't have these kinds of hiccups with AAA themeparks because they have the money in the first place to do them right.
With AAA themeparks these days it's more a matter of the direction/vision of the Game Designer on the dev team than "that project didn't have the funds to start with".
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Aye.
Funny thing is sooner or later these players will be in the same boat we are, talking about how newer games just don't capture the feel of WoW and have lost a lot of what MMORPGs were. Even the ones who spout the 'Adapt to change or STFU' will be the ones in a few years complaining about days long gone.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
First of all, please stop using blue, omg..
Secondly, I would like old school to come back to give us more choices in gaming selections. We've had plenty of "new school" games that've come out over the past few years. These new school games obviously model themselves after some successful MMO's, especially WoW. And honestly there's nothing wrong with that. Anybody who runs a business and want to make money would try to model themselves after the biggest and most successful ($$$) company out there.
But what would be cool is for some of the old classics to get revamped as sequels, with today's graphics, today's engine, today's marketing. Games like EQ1, AC1, DAOC, UO are all classic old school games I would like to see revamped with today's technology. EQ2 models after new school games so that one doesn't count. Same with AC2, the game doesn't even exist anymore. But gamers really do deserve some revamped old school games as choices on the market. Companies like SOE should do it as a "thanks" to all those 450k+ subscribers that got their company started and made them into what they are today. Mythic should do a DAOC 2 just as a thanks to loyal followers that gave their company a chance through DAOC.
I don't necessary want the genre to change into old school, but rather see some old school revamps so we have more choices on the market for everybody.
EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-DDO-GW-LoTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO
I can agree with some of that, but to make the case to the shareholders, a strong, lively, and loyal playerbase needs to already be in place. While I think there are still many loyal EQ and AC players, it may not be enough to revamp the engine and redo all the zones.
I think that an ideal scenario would be a game that has the challenge of some of the old school games we're discussing, but instead of long stretches of grinding, break the game up into smaller, bite-size chunks. LoTRO is really good at that with the story/epic quests. There are so many small pieces to the whole and each usually gives a decent reward, but the end quest for a chapter or book requires a bit more time and gives an awesome reward. EQ had some quests with really good rewards, but some of the quests took so long that you either had to spend the couple of hours to do it and move on, or log off and lose your progress. Even a stateful progress save would be good - something that saves you right where you are in a quest and lets you come back to it later. Us old-schoolers don't have the time to play as much per day as we used to, so we need to bite off smaller pieces.
insanex
Although Blizzard has not gone out of business yet. I don't think they are ready to get out of the mmog business anytime soon. The Blizzard fanboys will get what they want, as it has been since Diablo. They are set for the next decade, imo. It's just all the AAA alternatives may die. I think if Blizzard even made a second life social type game, they would flock to that just the same.
M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demos & indie alpha's.
I don't know about that, Wolf. Blizzard has some strength in its brand name, but would the name alone be enough, especially if it was not set in the Warcraft universe?
I still am wondering what this "next-gen MMO" is that Blizzard was hiring for awhile back...
insanex
This.
People will try to tell us that we have a ton of choices in the genre today, but we really don't. What we have today are games being built around the WoW style of MMO (fast progression, easy to obtain rewards with little to no risk, linear gameplay and heavy emphasis on end game loot) or a selection of older MMOs who are now 10+ years old.
Our so called 'choices' remind me of what Henry Ford said when people asked about choice of colors with the Model-T:
"People can have the Model T in any color - so long as it's black."
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"