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In My Opinion, MMOs Do Not Need Stories.

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  • kaiser3282kaiser3282 Member UncommonPosts: 2,759

    Originally posted by Vagrant_Zero

     




    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    The Earth is a sand box. I think the players have come up with some pretty amazing content.




     

    If that were even remotely true there wouldn't be millions of us clawing to get into virtual worlds, yourself included.

     Unfortunately, we havent been able to do things like completely break every law of physics, and many other things, to allow us to do the things we do in games. If we could actually do the things we're capable of in games, then im sur emany mor eof us would be out doing it IRL, rathe rthan in a game. Perhaps you should get to work on that for us? Go make magic work so i can cast fireballs people, and make it so i can summon undead minions :-P

  • MMO.MaverickMMO.Maverick Member CommonPosts: 7,619

    Originally posted by kaiser3282

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    The Earth is a sand box. I think the players have come up with some pretty amazing content.

     QFT, thats the best way to look at it.

    We didnt need someone to put us here and tell us "this is what was before, and this is what youre going to do with yourself" and have your entire life story preplanned, controlled, and scripted. Sure we are taught history in school, and are presented with various options on what we can possibly do with ourselves, but it is still our own choice what we do in the end.

    Problem is, there's lots and lots of people that want it to be a themepark, and they don't want to do the hard work and invest the time needed for the epic loot, but are looking for the easy-mode towards it.

    They certainly don't like the grind, even if that's what needed to level, and furthermore...

     

    ... ok, that's as far as I can stretch the analogy, ran out of juice.

    The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's

    The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
    Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."

  • elockeelocke Member UncommonPosts: 4,335

    Once again, I'm going to tout my sandbox/themepark hybrid mantra. It's the game design that will give us ALL the options we so desire in our games. Appeasing all crowds and making it truly "massive" in every right.

    Sounds like they are coming too by the looks of FFXIV, Rift, and so on.

    This argument about lore vs. story is a bit silly too. I've played EQ2 and LOTRO and to think that they offer the same thing storywise or lorewise couldn't be further from the truth. If anything, I wish EQ2 had more interactive story then it currently "shows" or rather, a better delivery system. From what I hear though, it seems they are leaning that way what with cutscenes in Halas and this new storyteller UI addition.

  • FrostWyrmFrostWyrm Member Posts: 1,036

    I think Final Fantasy XI had the right formula. They have several very well concieved storyline missions that use cutscenes and recurring NPC characters to actually make it feel important and interesting, but still allow you to do your own thing outside of those storylines. Dont get me wrong, the game has it's fair share of faults, I just think this was one area in which it really shined.

    The only time story really has little place is in games that focus almost entirely on PvP.  For PvE it's a well-done story that drives the player to want to push on, to see what happens next. The real problem is that "well-done" is a rarity nowadays.

  • MithithielMithithiel Member Posts: 77

    Riddle me this.. Who is my favorite gaming company at this very moment in time? Ding! Ding! We have a winner, Bioware! Why is Bioware my favorite team of game developers, why it's because they tell a damned good story in their games! You may think a story is a waste of time, but I thrive on a good tale in the fantasy world. I think Knights of the Republic will keep players engaged for years and years because it makes you feel like you are part of one of the greatest stories ever made.  I am going to have to strongly disagree with your statements Rick.

  • Rockgod99Rockgod99 Member Posts: 4,640

    I like a little of both.

    I love how Eve's lore is set up out of game through chronicles, Novels and Evelopedia.

    Then in game the players take the setting and just run with it.

     

    There are those instances when I do like a story so i log into GW and replay the campaigns for a week or so.

     

    So, yeah a little bit of both is good.

    image

    Playing: Rift, LotRO
    Waiting on: GW2, BP

  • PoopyStuffPoopyStuff Member Posts: 297

    you have too much faith in them.

    the template they are using for their game is a limited one

    set number of quests

    set number of areas

    set number of classes

    etc

     

    It's so limited but fanboys don't see it.

    The reason why games like eve can go on for 10+ years is solely because the story of made by the players.

    Not the players going thru script written by a programmer.

  • pencilrickpencilrick Member Posts: 1,550

    Originally posted by Mithithiel

    Riddle me this.. Who is my favorite gaming company at this very moment in time? Ding! Ding! We have a winner, Bioware! Why is Bioware my favorite team of game developers, why it's because they tell a damned good story in their games! You may think a story is a waste of time, but I thrive on a good tale in the fantasy world. I think Knights of the Republic will keep players engaged for years and years because it makes you feel like you are part of one of the greatest stories ever made.  I am going to have to strongly disagree with your statements Rick.

    Fine, but please be wise enough not to pay a monthly sub for a linear single player experience.  Single player RPG's should not have monthly fees.

  • VhalnVhaln Member Posts: 3,159

    Originally posted by Shastra

    Originally posted by pencilrick


    Originally posted by zeowyrm

    So, name one good, successful MMO that didn't have a story or lore behind it?

    Storyline does not equal Lore.  Two different thigns.

    Storyline = forced, contrived, linear plotline you must follow.  Good for one time through.

    Lore = part of setting, reason things in the present are as they are.  Very good stuff.

     

    EQ and UO had "lore".

    LOTRO and AOC have "storyline."

    EQ and UO had storyline too. I don't think you even know what you are talking about.

     

    In the early days of MMOs like EQ and UO, even up to DAOC, pretty much until WOW, there were very few quests.  Very few of those annoying text boxes that pop up to explain something that really makes no sense in an MMO world, but we're supposed to read them anyhow, and pretend to be the only player running through the story?  I can't believe anyone even reads all that.

     

    Personally, I agree with the OP.  I want to see a game unfold in a way that makes sense in the massively multiplayer scheme of the world.  Even if it means much less story, in the traditional sense of the term.  I have no interest in all these ridiculous little stories that really make no sense at all.

     

    It's a lot like the arguments for and against instancing, really.  Just on a different level.

    When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.

  • DaywolfDaywolf Member Posts: 749

    EQ had a fair amount of quests, the thing was they took a lot of time to complete in many cases. Less quests but more time spent on them. UO had none of course.

    M59, UO, EQ1, WWIIOL, PS, EnB, SL, SWG. MoM, EQ2, AO, SB, CoH, LOTRO, WoW, DDO+ f2p's, Demo’s & indie alpha's.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    In the early days of MMOs like EQ and UO, even up to DAOC, pretty much until WOW, there were very few quests.  Very few of those annoying text boxes that pop up to explain something that really makes no sense in an MMO world, but we're supposed to read them anyhow, and pretend to be the only player running through the story?  I can't believe anyone even reads all that.

    Personally, I agree with the OP.  I want to see a game unfold in a way that makes sense in the massively multiplayer scheme of the world.  Even if it means much less story, in the traditional sense of the term.  I have no interest in all these ridiculous little stories that really make no sense at all.

    It's a lot like the arguments for and against instancing, really.  Just on a different level.

    You don't really needs quests for a story. In a story there is a reason behind everything. Like who is the king, why there are undeads plaugeing a certain area or why the ruins of a city become a ruin in the first place.

    If you have no story everything that happened before the server went live is just random placement of monsters and places, no npcs have any goal whatsoever, only the story the players make ups matters.

    The problem with that of course is that in a world like this would every role be played by a real player or just be some randomly placed thing. And players don't want to every part of a world, at least not in most cases. Ok, farmville (Edit: Farmwville, farmworld, whatever, boring crap to me) showed us that you probably can have players who play farmers and such if you make the game right (and let people like that play F2P while you let adventurers play P2P but it would still be hard. Monsters would be pointless random spawns.

    a MMORPG needs a background story. All npcs should have some kind of point to exist and that includes mobs, or the game loses that RPG at the end of the name.

    A solo story like AoC is not a must for a MMORPG, it is fine if some games have that and some doesn't. It is a personal question if that makes the game more fun and makes it easier for you to come into your character or if you let players of high positions creates stories like that. The both system works and both can be fun.

    But there is no need for instances just because you have a story, GW2 are working on making serverwide quests and happenings that decide things for the entire server and that is the right way to handle a active non player made story in a game without instances (or with few instances). I think that the future of MMOs are more in that direction than the ever more instanced games we have now or the old UO style. An everchanging server were your actions actually matters works fine, even if you make that server pretty small and it will make a very different experience both in PvE and PvP. 

    Of course it is impossible to predict the future, TOR might take instances even longer or WoDO might instead make sandboxes the new hot thing again. But I think something new will take over instead of the games we had since UO, Meridian and EQ. If not the dynamic world then something else.

  • thorwoodthorwood Member Posts: 485

    I disagree.

    Lord of th Rings Online is an example of a successful MMO that has a story.

    I am not even sure if it is even possible to have setting, faction and conflict without at minimum a simple background story to explain the factions and setting.  A world where there is no NPC faction.  A world where players just create their own alliances.  This might work for a PvP world. 

    How you would implement this for PvE?  What would players do in a PvE world?

  • GTwanderGTwander Member UncommonPosts: 6,035

    I think it's impossible to have a game that lacks any kind of story in the first place. The only question here should be "does a player need it to be told/read?" and "do we need to attach meaning to the menial?".

    Every game out there has a story, even if it's "sandbox" in a way that provides no hints (to anything). There is usually lore behind everything going on outside the game that can be read up on at a player's leisure, and then again, you really don't have to in order to figure out what you want from the game itself. I think the best way to convey a story is either visually, or through actions (not words). You don't need anyone to conjure thoughts over a battleground, you can walk through it and get a good summary to it yourself. The subtleties in confined spaces speaks volumes, like the clutter and such, it gives an impression of a lifestyle without having to listen to an autobiography between quests to kill 10 ferrets.

    This is where I bring up "attaching meaning to the menial". Really, you don't need to read a drawn-out reason for why the tanner needs skins, or why the alchemist is making a potion. You just need the objective. If you were going to introduce story to it later, have some arcs based on achievement. After killing tons of crap for the tanner he'd let you in on what he is making with all the fruits of your menial labors - then you can have a real adventure behind it. One that doesn't involve just more fetching.

    That leads my point of a "story through action". Those pelts might have gone to skin the shields of some clan, and you just got inside information that they might have a fight brewing. From there you get a hint as to what to do with it; various sources could be approached for different takes on the upcoming content (you fight for either side, or for 3rd parties). Then the rest of the mission plays out through scripted events, in-real time, without much dialog. The best story is achieved through events that tell a tale and provide choices as certain encounters, not blabbity-blab. I am a fan of frankness in dialog over anything. If you want to tell long stories that way, have them as 'filler' npcs that have no objectives. People are just going to race through it otherwise, and if they want the long story, they will ask.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • DubhlaithDubhlaith Member Posts: 1,012

    I agree in principle. Most people are going to ready "no story" and hear "no context" or "no lore," when it is obvious that you mean that you want lore, and context, and the kinds of stories that create a real world.

    What sandbox players do not want is a linear story like those in theme parks. The kinds of stories that set you up against an enemy and tout you as the primary hero fighting against that foe.

    However, we are very much outnumbered. People want to feel like the hero, and they want to be led along by the nose through their advancement and endgame. People do not want to think or explore or experience the world. Just look at how successful the dungeon finder tool has been in WoW. That is what people want. Dungeon crawls that feel like arcade killing sprees.

    There is a market for sandbox games. Look at the success of Bethesda games. I am not sure why this is not reflected in MMO markets.

    "Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true — you know it, and they know it." —Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007

    WTF? No subscription fee?

  • GTwanderGTwander Member UncommonPosts: 6,035

    Originally posted by Dubhlaith

    There is a market for sandbox games. Look at the success of Bethesda games. I am not sure why this is not reflected in MMO markets.

    Bethesda sandboxes actually have tons of linear story content though... I guess it's just a 'mini-sode' type of content where the side stuff is way more interesting than the central plot.

    Writer / Musician / Game Designer

    Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
    Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 963

    mortal online is gonna have this and fail because of no story line , you make your own, linear is bad I agree like Aion , but I love a good story like fallen earth, asheron call 1 and age of conan, alot of games lack a good story but it is needed .

     

    An MMO with out a story and you make your own won't last plain and simple..But a game like Aion with the path that we have to follow is bad open world questing, storys etc is the best way to go.

  • MalcanisMalcanis Member UncommonPosts: 3,297

    Originally posted by Gylfi

    I alreayd answer this in the previous post. In an MMO the point is not story, the point is to reach level-cap.

     

    ...wow

    Well all I can say is that I'm very glad to play an MMO where the point is to play the game.

    I guess people like you are the reason I see so many complaints about EVE's skill system. I'm not even gonna say that you're wrong or anything; we just have a completely different take on what it means to play an MMO.

    Give me liberty or give me lasers

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by Dubhlaith

    There is a market for sandbox games. Look at the success of Bethesda games. I am not sure why this is not reflected in MMO markets.

    Sandbox games rely on allowing players a great deal of freedom. Freedom of movement, and freedom of action. Players must be able to change their world. To have an effect on others, as well as themselves. If I burn down a bridge, or build one; that must affect everyone. Not just me.

    This is much harder to put into a game than individual 'rides' which customers move along a path to experience, one by one.

    Sandbox for one player is much easier to design than sandbox for many.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • Mellow44Mellow44 Member Posts: 599

    I call the OP out as a pencilricker.

    So he doesn't like a story in his game?

    Well, many do and I'm one of them.

    Why does threads like these get so much attention anyway?

    I guess people likes to argue about anything.

    All those memories will be lost in time, like tears in the rain.

  • uquipuuquipu Member Posts: 1,516

    A story is one way to get people involved.
    .
    Do you care that the village elder needs ten golden mushrooms?
    .
    No
    .
    What about if you were part of a routed army fleeing your pursuers? And the elder wanted the mushrooms to heal your injured comrades?
    .
    That's a simple story, but it could even be more involved.
    .
    Problem is, MMOs have a hard time story telling since all the players have to get their turn at the content.
    .
    The new Star Wars game is supposed to have some complex story telling, at least at the beginning. Everyone can be a jedi it seems.

    Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    So devs who spend no time whatsoever providing any sort of background to what is going on or any context and depth to the game world are better than those who do? Just lol.

    People got to quit this "I create my own story" bullcrap, that has nothing to do with the narrative in a game.

    Your own story is simply the sum of your experiences in an mmo, it has nothing to do with the written or told story of your character.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

    So devs who spend no time whatsoever providing any sort of background to what is going on or any context and depth to the game world are better than those who do? Just lol.

    People got to quit this "I create my own story" bullcrap, that has nothing to do with the narrative in a game.

    You can read about other people's lives, or write your own story. Some prefer the latter.

     

    Your own story is simply the sum of your experiences in an mmo, it has nothing to do with the written or told story of your character.

    In the typical MMO, the sum of your experiences is the same as everyone else's.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • MMO_DoubterMMO_Doubter Member Posts: 5,056

    Originally posted by uquipu

    Problem is, MMOs have a hard time story telling since all the players have to get their turn at the content.

    Yup. You can't kill that uber dragon, because everyone else wants a chance. Or a few chances. Or they want to farm him for mats.

    .

    The new Star Wars game is supposed to have some complex story telling, at least at the beginning. Everyone can be a jedi it seems.

    Which means there will be nothing special about being a Jedi.

    "" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Member UncommonPosts: 2,433

    Originally posted by MMO_Doubter

    You can read about other people's lives, or write your own story. Some prefer the latter.

     

    In the typical MMO, the sum of your experiences is the same as everyone else's.

     

    1) Problem is: your own written story, isn't real except for you, and it will never be real, because you can't force other people to accept that and they can't force you.

    This 'own written story' is not even part of the game mechanics and relying on it is simply an excuse to make an uninteresting game experience.

    Take any single player experience, take away all context and background and depth and leave only a combat experience of running through a world killing things while you urge people to 'imagine the rest'.

    Any such game would get absolutely destroyed by reviewers and players alike, but yet a lot of mmo's are exactly that, uninteresting shallow experiences where you have to kill things over and over.

    Fantasizing about how you're a great hero who is killing the evil boars of the nether attacking the village in distress doesn't take away the reality that you're playing an uninteresting game.

     

    It's about freaking time mmorpg's are held up to the standards of the rest of the industry.

     

    2) Yes, and that is exactly a problem that will never be changed by leaving things up to mere fantasy, because the actual game and the actual experience stays the same.

    I do not understand people using this lame excuse to keep defending this very same model of game.

    I'm all for people having an impact on the game, but that is not connected to the narrative or any of your own fantasies.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • GadarethGadareth Member UncommonPosts: 310

    All quests / missions are stories and these are often a vital part of mmos. EQ or EverQUEST has thousands of such stories. Some mmos such as LOTRO have a meta plot this is a underlining story upon which th game is based however they also have thousands of quests each od which represent a story.

    You cannot remove the story from a mmo as they help give things purpose they give it shape and the hooks needed upon which events and awads can be hung.

    I suspect the OP is really saying mmos do not need a meta plot he prefers games in which there are only the small stories and the underlining theme and purpose is not there. The backfrop on which you play is in his opinion something to be developed by the player and not by the organisers of the game system.

    This idea however has a flaw. Most mmos are level based this means that the areas themse;ves are level based the stories your given are used to encourage you to stay in areas which are apporpriate to your level. They are also used to help you find other areas appropriate. EQ1 used this method a lot.

    So no I do not agree with the op stories are vital to mmos. They bring favour to the world they distribute lore and they supply guidance when needed to help you on your way.

     

    Gadareth

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