Dark Age of Camelot: What if... Dark Age of Camelot 2

Cdnbones · May 2010

its funny, you can level a toon to 50 in a day if you really tried, and thats not with paying to get plvled, if you cut that by 75% they should just add /level 49.9, glad they took out the /level though, if you dont actually play the game and learn the toon how will you know the styles and spells it gets.

Illyssia · May 2010

Originally posted by Ozmodan
Come on Garret, your comment on Trials of Atlantis was ridiculous. It was most certainly the demise of DAoC because it gave the people who played all day a huge advantage. The majority of the population just gave up when it was clear there was no way to be competitive without a huge grind in front of them. Mythic was told this a million times and only made token changes.

I agree, it's a huge problem in any RvR game that they tend to favor the hardcore over more casual players. The only real way around the gank groups preventing other factions from leveling is to protect the leveling game by making it entirely separate from the end-game RVR. Say you have an instanced largely non-PvP game for leveling, teaching the basics of gameplay, and to set the lore of the game, followed by entry into the open world RvR and PvE end-game zones. That might work, though it might be sort of what you find in SW:TOR on release next year.

stormtide · May 2010

I bought DAOC not having the slightest clue what an MMO was or what it was about. When DAOC first came out you were not able to enter the frontier until lvl 15. At least thats how I remember it, or that's just what my noob brain had conjured up at the time. I had the hardest time getting to lvl 15 because I would reroll constantly. All the different classes were interesting and I wanted to try them all. Anyhow I remember having this fear of the unknown the first time I entered the frontier, having no idea what was going to happen next. That feeling never left for the rest of my years in the frontier. Seems like now a day everyone wants to be completely equal with no surprises in some kind of instanced arena.

Also someone had mentioned earlier about all the famous people and guilds on each of the servers. I remember specifically on Galahad there was this troll zerker named Kugnar who would hide his buff bot and sneak around (as best a troll could). He became famous in Albion for hanging outside around our portal keep and would kill anyone dumb enough to go out there solo or in small groups. Keep in mind this is before everyone had a buff bot so he was ahead of his time.

Another memory I have is my first guild keep and how hard we fought to keep it. We had it for a couple weeks until it fell under attack, we all rushed to its defense. I remember when the last door came down and the feeling of panic rushing to the lord room fighting tooth and nail to defend it. We had maybe 2 groups vs. at least 4fg of mids. We lost but I have never felt real emotion like that in any game since that day.

The community made DAOC everything, without that there was nothing. I wouldn't change a thing regarding the lvling system pre TOA. It forced you (in a good way) to play with others. The amount of time it took was perfect, by the time you were 50 you had a great network of friends in many different guild.

Darkkhorse · May 2010

I miss DAOC, I started with MUDS, Meridain 59, Ultima, and EQ... out of all of those, DAOC was the most fun. I would love to see them bring back the glory of the this game. I just don't know if they have the skills to do it. DAOC had unique ideas that we no longer see in the MMO industry... every game is trying to capture the WOW mechanics and making a boring vanilla game just like WOW is to this day.

If they hired some people that understood DAOC - or developed it.... ( which I hear most of those devs now work on Darkfall ) It would be possible... but it just seems like no company can capture the fun and adventure that MMO's used to be. However, if they DID make a sequel to this game, I would buy it no matter what and give it a try.

Atropos_Nyx · May 2010

A reboot of DAoC would be a great day for MMO gaming, but it would be tricky for it to avoid the same pitfalls that hurt it and other games. I think there are alot of good mechanisms from newer games that might be worth including, but also alot of freshly popular game concepts that I think DAoC was, and still would be well enough without. If I were in charge of the project's direction, I would envision it in this way:

General:

Keep:

* The same class/race combinations as original daoc, no expansion classes or races (yet?).

* Original character customization (different races have different stats, players can allocate stat points at creation).

Get Rid Of:

* Everything that came after original DAoC, examine each expansion individually, and incorporate only the best elements from each.

Add:

* A graphics overhaul, updating DAoC's beautiful mechanics with an equally pretty facade.

* Highly customizable skill trees, with rewards that scale with depth of investment.

* Controllable mounts

* Collision detection

PvE:

Keep:

* The world of DAoC vanilla, including different starting villages, horse routes, and iconic dungeons.

* The dragon fights as a source of endgame equipment.

* Class based epic quests; doing these every 5 levels was a fun and guaranteed way to meaningfully upgrade an inventory slot.

* Unique class specific epic armor sets in endgame. Make them a bit more powerful to be competitive with player crafted.

* Dynamic XP bonuses (group, camp, etc..)

Get Rid Of:

* The clunky conversation interface and quest journal. Replace it with a simple user friendly one. Alot of players avoided quests simply because keeping track of what to do was such a hassle, and almost required looking up quest spoilers online. DON'T switch to the other end of the spectrum, where you put a red circle on the map showing exactly where to go. Keep the mystery there, but make it clear enough that you can figure it out on your own.

* Tasks. There is enough content in the world that the player doesn't need to let an NPC tell him what to farm.

* Instances.

Add:

* A second meaningful raid or group encounter (dungeon?) in previously underutilized zones like Llyn Barfog, Vanern Swamp, and the Cursed Forest.

* Public Quests in wilderness areas and dungeons.

* Boss monsters with unique abilities, rather than simply mobs that hit harder and have more HP.

* In game maps

* Something similar to WAR's Tome of Knowledge that tracks the player's accomplishments and stats.

RvR

Keep:

* A world similar to the original frontiers.

* Milegates and other non-objective fortifications (ruins, towers, etc..)

* Darkness Falls and the keep control system

* Relics

* Improvements in CC resistance (charge, determination, purge)

* Meaningful realm abilities

* Player stat tracking

* Low level battlegrounds (non-instanced).

Get Rid Of:

* New Frontier's emphasis on keep siege, make keeps important, but not paramount.

Add:

* Better siege mechanics.

Social

Keep:

* Player and guild housing.

Get Rid Of:

* Having to run to someone's house to buy an item.

Add:

* Simple, but functional looking for group, and looking for guild panels.

* Guild levels with perks (banners, easier crafting, guild hall...)

* Guild experience mechanics that scale with size to not discourage small guilds while rewarding zergers.

This is by no means comprehensive, but it's what immediately springs to mind when I think about what I would want to see in a DAoC rebirth. I really hope that some day this vision comes to fruition, but I'm a bit jaded by the trends of recent MMO releases to be overly optimistic.

I can't be bothered to look it up specifically, but someone earlier in this discussion noted that ex-DAOC players are the most difficult group of MMO gamers to satisfy. I think that's probably true. Those of us who loved DAoC experienced the best MMO that has been made to date, and unfortunately we had to watch it be suffocated by poor design decisions, and the WoW hype machine. I'm sure there are thousands of gamers like me who would leap at the chance to relive the glory of DAoC.

I hope that Mythic recognizes what a gem they have in Dark Age of Camelot, and can convince the powers that be at EA and BioWare to let them reincarnate it into the game we all want to see.

aldrinstorm · May 2010

Originally posted by Konvert

I'm talking about the servers that opened because there was a HUGE backlash about the ToA expansion, and people were BEGGING for it to be removed from the game.

So, if ToA had absolutely no effect on the game, and everybody loved it, how come the non ToA servers got FLOODED with people as soon as they opened?

Also, once again, you ignore the largely unpopular New Frontiers, people left in conjunction with that, and the changes from ToA.

What % of old players were returning to classic (those who had quit playing) vs. the % of ToA players who stayed, did not want to deal with MLing alts or gearing them up, or wanted a fresh start)? <---and went to the opening classic server. Of 7 people I regularly grouped with, all 7 went just to try it out. Of the 7, 3 stayed and 5 went back to our regular server.

The reason the classic servers got flooded initial was not due to old players returning...it was for the second reason mentioned. The pull of people from other servers only help deplete the population that floundering servers were already experiencing.

There are a multitude or reasons why people left as I will totally agree with; heck, I even knew folks who left due to realm population imbalances (of all things).

Was a fun game while I played it; but, until buff bots are removed in full, I will not resubscribe...I do not like to ask for buffs nor will I pay for two accounts to be competitve.

Well i for one, came back after being away for 2 years to play the game without TOA

i LOVED the Gareth server, i played there until it died

If it didnt die, i would still be there

flavior · May 2010

Ohhhh Yes! Give us a DAOC 2 !

Good article Garett.

No game did ever approach how i felt for daoc.

If EA goes for it, and Mythic/Bioware don't mess it. It will be THE MMO of the next decade!

Quicksand · May 2010

I would buy DAoC 2 without even knowing anything about it, thats how much I loved DAoC. Mythic would sell millions of copies if they made DAoC 2.

Come on EA, get it STARTED!!!!!

vonbose0 · May 2010

I actually liked the length of time it took to get to 50. It helped solidify the community.

I remember being in the middle of the pack, on our way to 50 when DAoC came out. It made me feel like the front runners were the pioneers of the server. Listening to them talk about the RvR and their experiences out in the frontier had me hanging on their every word. I couldn't wait to join them and fight for my realm.

When we finally had a good number of 50s on the server we really felt like an army that had matured as players together. There were three realms of players who had gone through months of leveling. All tight-knit armies. It created the most heated rivalries in all of MMO history.

Another big plus was the sense of danger you felt in the frontiers, because if you died you were actually sent packing. WAR really got it wrong in how fast you could return to any said fight in the open RVR lakes. The penalties for dieing in DAoC really made your heart race in every fight.

Xiaoki · May 2010

Reading through this thread the problem with updating old MMOs becomes very apparent: old MMO players all want different things. When dealing with a small audience this is a large problem.
Mythic would know that their audience for a modern DAoC would not be large to begin with so they would want to please as many DAoC fans as possible. However, some people want an upgrade to the existing DAoC, some people want a DAoC upgrade but with no expansions, some people want a sequel that gets rid of the bloat from DAoC.

If a sequel is made the upgrade people will complain, if an upgrade is made then the sequel and opposing upgrade people will complain.

DAoC fans want a modern DAoC but they all have different ideas of what that should be. When that ideal is not met(and it wont be) they will complain.

It would be for the best if DAoC was left to live on forever in the fans' memories instead of having an upgrade or sequel torn apart by fan infighting.

Tenebrion · May 2010

I would give both of my testicles for DAoC 2.

Daywolf · May 2010

If they cut instancing to appeal to the mmorpg players, I would subscribe. If they include instancing so to appeal to the off-line or multi-player RPG players, I'll pass, just as I canceled other subscriptions that switched over to instancing (it’s stale rpg not mmorpg).

stormtide · May 2010

Originally posted by aaclayton
A reboot of DAoC would be a great day for MMO gaming, but it would be tricky for it to avoid the same pitfalls that hurt it and other games. I think there are alot of good mechanisms from newer games that might be worth including, but also alot of freshly popular game concepts that I think DAoC was, and still would be well enough without. If I were in charge of the project's direction, I would envision it in this way:

General:

Keep:

* The same class/race combinations as original daoc, no expansion classes or races (yet?).

* Original character customization (different races have different stats, players can allocate stat points at creation).

Get Rid Of:

* Everything that came after original DAoC, examine each expansion individually, and incorporate only the best elements from each.

Add:

* A graphics overhaul, updating DAoC's beautiful mechanics with an equally pretty facade.

* Highly customizable skill trees, with rewards that scale with depth of investment.

* Controllable mounts

* Collision detection

PvE:

Keep:

* The world of DAoC vanilla, including different starting villages, horse routes, and iconic dungeons.

* The dragon fights as a source of endgame equipment.

* Class based epic quests; doing these every 5 levels was a fun and guaranteed way to meaningfully upgrade an inventory slot.

* Unique class specific epic armor sets in endgame. Make them a bit more powerful to be competitive with player crafted.

* Dynamic XP bonuses (group, camp, etc..)

Get Rid Of:

* The clunky conversation interface and quest journal. Replace it with a simple user friendly one. Alot of players avoided quests simply because keeping track of what to do was such a hassle, and almost required looking up quest spoilers online. DON'T switch to the other end of the spectrum, where you put a red circle on the map showing exactly where to go. Keep the mystery there, but make it clear enough that you can figure it out on your own.

* Tasks. There is enough content in the world that the player doesn't need to let an NPC tell him what to farm.

* Instances.

Add:

* A second meaningful raid or group encounter (dungeon?) in previously underutilized zones like Llyn Barfog, Vanern Swamp, and the Cursed Forest.

* Public Quests in wilderness areas and dungeons.

* Boss monsters with unique abilities, rather than simply mobs that hit harder and have more HP.

* In game maps

* Something similar to WAR's Tome of Knowledge that tracks the player's accomplishments and stats.

RvR

Keep:

* A world similar to the original frontiers.

* Milegates and other non-objective fortifications (ruins, towers, etc..)

* Darkness Falls and the keep control system

* Relics

* Improvements in CC resistance (charge, determination, purge)

* Meaningful realm abilities

* Player stat tracking

* Low level battlegrounds (non-instanced).

Get Rid Of:

* New Frontier's emphasis on keep siege, make keeps important, but not paramount.

Add:

* Better siege mechanics.

Social

Keep:

* Player and guild housing.

Get Rid Of:

* Having to run to someone's house to buy an item.

Add:

* Simple, but functional looking for group, and looking for guild panels.

* Guild levels with perks (banners, easier crafting, guild hall...)

* Guild experience mechanics that scale with size to not discourage small guilds while rewarding zergers.

This is by no means comprehensive, but it's what immediately springs to mind when I think about what I would want to see in a DAoC rebirth. I really hope that some day this vision comes to fruition, but I'm a bit jaded by the trends of recent MMO releases to be overly optimistic.

I can't be bothered to look it up specifically, but someone earlier in this discussion noted that ex-DAOC players are the most difficult group of MMO gamers to satisfy. I think that's probably true. Those of us who loved DAoC experienced the best MMO that has been made to date, and unfortunately we had to watch it be suffocated by poor design decisions, and the WoW hype machine. I'm sure there are thousands of gamers like me who would leap at the chance to relive the glory of DAoC.

I hope that Mythic recognizes what a gem they have in Dark Age of Camelot, and can convince the powers that be at EA and BioWare to let them reincarnate it into the game we all want to see.

This x100000000000

DashDash · May 2010

Very nice article and i hope that will rewamp players interest into this game

Why is only point of interrest for many "wanabemmoplayers" play the newest mmo on market, because its cool and hipe.
Why not to play something whats have the years of upgrading, balacing and polishing?

(point for all good older mmos on market that are out of players interrest).

insanex · May 2010

Originally posted by malrod

i played daoc for over 4 years. if daoc 2 was this i would return:

1. keep the three factions-but increase the timers to stop realm jumpers

2.NO TOA- or at the least allow for non-toa servers

3. no instances or teleportation- yes i am old school, if you have to travel its by horse. i remember the anticipation of standing on the pod waiting for the druids to port you into the frontier.

4. focus on realm pride and commaderie-promote grouping as the way to level-bring back the epic areas of leveling- from an albion perspective-STONEHENGE, DARKNESS FALLS, AVALON CITY

5. maintain and enhance the crafting system- i was a legendary crafter in all areas- keep player crafted items in demand

6. keep the housing area-but have it centered around guild houses-as a member of a guild you can build a house near your guild

insanex · May 2010

Originally posted by insanex

Originally posted by malrod

i played daoc for over 4 years. if daoc 2 was this i would return:

1. keep the three factions-but increase the timers to stop realm jumpers

2.NO TOA- or at the least allow for non-toa servers

3. no instances or teleportation- yes i am old school, if you have to travel its by horse. i remember the anticipation of standing on the pod waiting for the druids to port you into the frontier.

4. focus on realm pride and commaderie-promote grouping as the way to level-bring back the epic areas of leveling- from an albion perspective-STONEHENGE, DARKNESS FALLS, AVALON CITY

5. maintain and enhance the crafting system- i was a legendary crafter in all areas- keep player crafted items in demand

6. keep the housing area-but have it centered around guild houses-as a member of a guild you can build a house near your guild

Doh, pressed enter too soon.

I agree with the horse travel. I enjoyed how when your team got together to do some PvE, it felt like you were truly running a quest. YOu had to hop on a horse and get there just like everyone else. In battle, we played our parts well and worked together, but afterwards it was just like midieval times. Gotta mount up and head to town. Fast travel removed the fun of the journey. And I think that's what many of us are saying: we enjoy the journey more than the destination.

insanex

Jetrpg · May 2010

1:TOA the raids or encounters were really good (a few buggy and too long reswapn off the bat) but not scrolls or little levelign should have been required (if artifact weaposn in daoc2 how about you can customize stats a bit when leveling like leveling a character)

2: CC is what made daoc , at least one of the things.

3: some classes issues existed , shamans were super bad for a long time, zerks too strogn thena bit up , etc. But NON-STOP SMALL NERFS AND BUFFS ARE GOOD FOR MMMOs. They keep people interested and things changing.

4: daoc was fun becuase of the crazy number of classes, even mixing core abilities up often provided different play styles. I know i had a blast with all the different classes, it keep me playing roling alts and rvring for new experiences. I would rather have small imbalances than 8 total classes ... boring (which are still going to be unblaanced, so why not have a ton of classes all were effective in pvp and pve).

5: Clear definded class roles, some hybridization is alright but their should be downfalls or different purpose /gameplay with them. (friar, damage with buffs and a small side of healing, great, thane damage with some nuking great, skalds, damage with da speed) So purpose (damage/healing) + desired unique or helpful sides (tanky/cc/secondary healing/sped/buff)

6: Less free and easy loot. Warhammer throws loot at you .... why its simply to easy to acomplish gettign good equip make it som,ethign to strive for.

7: this ties in with #6 Make it challenging, force or make grouping more productive. IE no maaive group bonuses.

8: Instances are NOT your friend , why play an mmo if you spend 90% of your time in an instance? Make big dungeons and maybe random spawnign instances that last for a few mins in them (running through the low part of a dungeon your party comes across an instance that will be open for 5 mins hop in and kill da boss pop back out at nearest safe point in dungeon) This allows one less fights over named mobs with ok item drops and still provides a open world expereince.

These are justa few things that any mmo rpg that wants good pvp should think about,

Not spell checked cuz i don't care

Edit- also no skill trees plz i ment they are ok , or maybe even a combo but daocs talant /point system was better than a skill tree in how and what your character did.

Skill trees add like 3-6 abilitys and via daoc customization i got 8-15 easy, and then it also impacted the strength/ level of those abilities allowing for MORE character development. Mayeb a combo for every 5 points in a catagory 1 point for that mastries skill tree. Even more combos this way.

brett7018 · May 2010

Originally posted by Effect
Sorry but I can't just ignore the defending of Trials of Atlantis that the article tries to attempt. That was a major factor in the game's downfall. The attempt to try and make the game more like Everquest at the time did not work and was not wanted at all. It made it so those that could spend hours and hours more in the game were at a significant advantage over everyone else. DAoC wasn't a pure PvE game with high level raids. It was a PvPvE game. Even the focus on keeps and outpost weren't bad I felt. The best way to defend a location is with range but once the doors or walls were down melees were front in center. It makes sense. That change I don't think was ever a big problem. It gave everyone something important to do and it didn't stop field battles from what I could tell. ToA deserves a lot of blame as does Mythic for refusing to address it until it was to late and even then they never really did and the damage was done.

There is a reason why when they added the server/cluster that didn't have ToA active on it that it became so popular and became THE server to play on.

This! Good Lord, how can Mythic (EA) be so thick-headed? Then, just when I almost came back with the Origins idea, they BLEW IT AGAIN and made the current server cluster TOA....epic failure.

I would play DAOC2 in a heartbeat if they went back to Shrouded Isles type play with a major graphics/UI upgrade. Alas though, what makes anyone think EA Mythic would listen to any of this?

They certainly have showed that they have NO IDEA or simply DO NOT CARE what the customer really wants with their latest DAOC and WAR decisions....

General-Zod · May 2010

Its really hard to make a mmo ... Sooo many conflicting things

I hear people complain about Instances .... but when you enter a dungeon or there is a place that is good exp and there is a group there already, you have to be that @$$hole that says "Umm how long are you guys going to be here" or you gotta worry about somebody like me pulling within your camp just because I wanna piss you off. Nobody should have to deal with somebody like me... period

But instances hurt the game in another way... so just like a non-gay threesome... somebody is going to be left out

But would I would like to see daoc 2... would be the best part (to me) in daoc .. would have to be the solo game ... I loved just running out alone and seeing what poor straggler I could get my hands around ... So I had this idea that they could make some kind of zone or small portion of the map that didnt allow groups and once inside there was no map to find your way out. the zone would have random entrances so nobody would start in the same place ... Kinda like "Lab" where you cant choose the obilisk, No maps or groups.. but I was thinking more of a Evil forest type theme... I WOULD LOVE THAT... but I dont know how many people enjoy the solo game as much as I did... I can already see the holes in it... nevermind guys

6SlipKnoT6 · May 2010

WAR was supposed to be "DAOC 2", but kinda failed miserably.

Dwarvish · May 2010

Ahhh..if only......

Great read. Its to bad so much of what is pointed out in this great read is either ignored or ...hmm...ignored!

Anyway , I'm ready to invest, call someone and beat them if needed til they get it.

Sovrath · May 2010

Originally posted by 6SlipKnoT6
WAR was supposed to be "DAOC 2", but kinda failed miserably.

I'm not convinced it ever was.

I know players wanted it to be "DAoC 2" but at no time did I ever see anything from the deves that implied it was supposed to be a spiritual successor.

Capn23 · May 2010

Did anyone else have an nerdgasm when they saw this article?

I'm pretty sure I did.

icreepin · May 2010

I have played EQ since beta and I have also played DAOC and a few other MMO. If DAOC came back I would not make a DAOC pt2 I would just overhal the game by putting in and taking out the best/worst things people did and didnt like.

Dont make leveling faster but make sure there is good solid content from levels 1 to 50 then perhaps put class quest you have to do to level from 19 to 20 then do the same thing at lvl 39 to 40 then at 49 to 50 make help break up the grind.

If I could find a game like DAOC but with the playability of EQ I would be done for ever.

gekkothegrey · May 2010

I never played DAOC because I did not get heavly into mmo's till SWG, but I have never heard a bad thing about the game and would for sure buy it if a part 2 was released.

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Dark Age of Camelot: What if... Dark Age of Camelot 2

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