Look at AoC and WAR.. Both games were highly anticipated. And both games failed because the devs tried mixing fps with mmo elements...
My gosh, that's not in the slightest why they failed. It had nothing to do with a mix of mmo & fps. Just seems like a delusional stretch to me.
But back on topic of Exploration. A freedom of game-play environment is sorely needed that doesnt have or minimizes pre-determined point-to-point npc quests and opens the game-play virtual world to player development, balancing and exploration for discovery of most game-play needs.
MMO and FPS games just don't mix. It won't work, and they have never been successful. If mmorpg's went back to the days of Everquest, all of the fps/mmo hybrid gamers would leave and never come back.. Then the true fans of this fantasy mmorpg genre will finally have OUR GENRE BACK...
Look at AoC and WAR.. Both games were highly anticipated. And both games failed because the devs tried mixing fps with mmo elements to hopefully interest both fans of each genre and make trillions of dollars like Blizzard did.. Well, blizzard is smart, I have to give them that.. Hell, I was even addicted to WoW for about a year myself.. WoW took features, ideas, and concepts from EQ, UO, DAOC, and combined them with their own ideas and created an awesome game,, they really did.. Blizzard is the only company who managed to do what every other company after them tried to duplicate... They managed to entice and draw in the FPS genre with WoW's fast paced leveling and fast paced PvP.. Also, Blizzard did a great job of creating a living, breathing, seamless sandbox type of virtual world filled with epic lore, awesome dungeons, and fantastic races that would appeal to fans of the fantasy mmorpg genre..
But see, here's where blizzard is smart... The game's primary focus isnt the rollercoaster PvP experience that AoC and WAR focused on.... It's the exploration, leveling to the top and raiding the end game which is the main focus pointof WoW.. Alot of the pvper's could care less about this.. All they care about is PVP.. Well, Blizzard gave them their pvp but news flash,,, the pvp system in WoW is not relevant to the primary focus of the game! LOL... This is where WAR and AoC went wrong.. There's little to no real PvE experience in WAR.. And AoC ridiculous combat system plays so much like a lousy fps game in a mmorpg, it just doesn't work at all, period...
I believe fantasy MMORPG Developers need to rediscover their roots,, what make fantasy mmorpgs successful. What features are needed, which features can be left out, and vision a game that will appeal to one genre... Don't roll the dice and try making a game that is half FPS and half Fantasy mmorpg... If they want to make a FPS mmorpg, then fine do it! But don't try to be greedy and give each fan half of what they want just to make billions of dollars.. Because your not giving the true fans EVERYTHING they crave and want by mixing both FPS elements with MMORPG elements.. It just doesn't freaking work, Period!
WAR and AoC are fine examples of my point... Both games were so highly anticipated and both failed miserably.. I beta tested both and played both, and of course I left both when my free month ran out like 90% of those who tried the games...
the pvp in wow is for the most part targeted at fps player!the rest is like you say but the pvp in vanilla open world that market isnt covered anymore by wow .ho they tried with av and wsg but its just not it at all!
and the puzzle original wow was booted too!will they change a half full half empty model to please what made them huge in vanilla while keeping their new casual player base?good question !they didnt bother with it in bc or wotlk so its safe to assume they ll just cover casual and fps pvp player!
MMO and FPS games just don't mix. It won't work, and they have never been successful. If mmorpg's went back to the days of Everquest, all of the fps/mmo hybrid gamers would leave and never come back.. Then the true fans of this fantasy mmorpg genre will finally have OUR GENRE BACK...
Look at AoC and WAR.. Both games were highly anticipated. And both games failed because the devs tried mixing fps with mmo elements to hopefully interest both fans of each genre and make trillions of dollars like Blizzard did.. Well, blizzard is smart, I have to give them that.. Hell, I was even addicted to WoW for about a year myself.. WoW took features, ideas, and concepts from EQ, UO, DAOC, and combined them with their own ideas and created an awesome game,, they really did.. Blizzard is the only company who managed to do what every other company after them tried to duplicate... They managed to entice and draw in the FPS genre with WoW's fast paced leveling and fast paced PvP.. Also, Blizzard did a great job of creating a living, breathing, seamless sandbox type of virtual world filled with epic lore, awesome dungeons, and fantastic races that would appeal to fans of the fantasy mmorpg genre..
But see, here's where blizzard is smart... The game's primary focus isnt the rollercoaster PvP experience that AoC and WAR focused on.... It's the exploration, leveling to the top and raiding the end game which is the main focus pointof WoW.. Alot of the pvper's could care less about this.. All they care about is PVP.. Well, Blizzard gave them their pvp but news flash,,, the pvp system in WoW is not relevant to the primary focus of the game! LOL... This is where WAR and AoC went wrong.. There's little to no real PvE experience in WAR.. And AoC ridiculous combat system plays so much like a lousy fps game in a mmorpg, it just doesn't work at all, period...
I believe fantasy MMORPG Developers need to rediscover their roots,, what make fantasy mmorpgs successful. What features are needed, which features can be left out, and vision a game that will appeal to one genre... Don't roll the dice and try making a game that is half FPS and half Fantasy mmorpg... If they want to make a FPS mmorpg, then fine do it! But don't try to be greedy and give each fan half of what they want just to make billions of dollars.. Because your not giving the true fans EVERYTHING they crave and want by mixing both FPS elements with MMORPG elements.. It just doesn't freaking work, Period!
WAR and AoC are fine examples of my point... Both games were so highly anticipated and both failed miserably.. I beta tested both and played both, and of course I left both when my free month ran out like 90% of those who tried the games...
I agree. If a company wants to make a hybrid FPS/RPG/MMO, take some pointers from successful franchises like Deus Ex. That was the perfect combo of FPS and RPG IMO. Of course the storyline was bloody awesome and that just drew you in further. But the point is that just like a hybrid class in WoW or any other game, a hybrid FPS/RPG/MMO sacrifices excellence in specific areas to allow that combination.
Sorry, but there were plenty of times I just, you know, explored an area because it looked cool. I saw a ridge or a valley and just ran down into it because I wanted to. I came across dungeons before I ever got a quest for them. Explorers EXPLORE and WoW has loads to explore. Its undeniable. WOW has quests, but you don't HAVE TO do them. You don't have to talk to the NPCs. You can level up just fine without doing any quests and buy all your gear from the AH. The only people who feel led around in WOW are those who CHOOSE TO be led around. There is nothing that forces you to talk to an NPC besides training purposes and buying/selling. You could ignore almost every quest in the game and still find every dungeon, get every spell, still get loads of gear, ect, ect.
Pplease don't say you can't explore because of some ! over an NPC's head. Thats just dumb.
Who said that? I didn't I just said WOW isn't the game the player I was referring to would enjoy. The whole of the design went into it's Themepark principle. I don't eat pizza just so I can have some peperoni. I eat pizza because of the whole that is the pizza, I wouldn't pay for a whole pizza just so I can have a couple peperoni.
If that's to much to understand, do you go to a themepark just to ride one roller-coaster over and over again, add infinium? No.. well most likely no, the themepark you pick depends greatly on the overall experience it offers. Just like you don't go to a ball game to buy a hat, you can get a hat anywhere, you go for the experience. Otherwise it's a waste of money, If it's exploration I want I'll look for a game that encourages it as well as is designed around it.
I'd say early on WOW was, as it took it's beginning roots from the games that had come before. Exploration was a big part of these games. Today WOW has a different appeal, it's left it's roots behind, just like the genre has basically done.I don't blame them for this, however I do acknowledge as a whole the genre itself has left these features in the dust, in favor of instant gratification and instant ACTION. If you haven't seen it yet, pop your head up a little more often.
Every single game has a bit of exploring to it, or could be percieved as such. The fundamental difference is, once you've seen it the exploration is over, as it's just visual exploration. What people seem to want is deeper exploration, where lore is presented in an interesting way as opposed to through text given to you as part of a fetch or kill quest.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
lol if i was beginning to compare it would be like this:just the price tag of wow is better then free realm!
freerealm:5$ a month if i recall no buying of game etc
wow:original
burning cruisade
wrath of the lich king
soon:cataclysm so a total of what 100$ 150 $ just to buy it you havent started to play yet ! it will cost between 30 and 40 $ per month depanding on langage, where you live etc.
so if you have to justify wow!before i could say in original wow dam im enjoying this game ton of fun
today i ll will have just has mutch fun in freerealm and the total cost will be 5$ a month cant be more casual you can play 5 minute and accomplish something ,a thing you couldnt do in vanilla wow.
so if i have to chose between a mo called wow or a mo called free realm ,i got to say free realm is a better choice
i would never have said that if blizzard had kept what made us love original wow but since both are casual mo game
the comparision is good!worst freerealm is playable in a browser lol!one more big plus it can reach a way bigger audience the wow could ever hope !
When I explored in older games seeing cool stuff was the reward.
Rewarding exploration for me is when you discover quests/items/new places through exploration. I don't want to have NPCs with exclamation marks over their heads who direct me to other NPCs with exclamation points over their heads.
I want to be running through the game world and see a fort off in the distance. When I run up to it I want to fight my way through and find perhaps an emprisoned person or a special chest.
I can see the appeal. But I also see the dozen websites which will tell you,
"go to X, then 200 yards west, past the hill. There will be a totally secret fort which has a chest with randomized goodies in it. Be polite and wait til the other 5 guys that got there ahead of you get their goody chest first."
Games like LotRO, you might be surprised to find actually DO have content like this. Areas where you'll come upon a wounded person that you have to guide to safety, all out in the main, non-instanced areas. They are a nice surprise, but they aren't something that make me choose LotRO over another game. It's having alot more impact in your head right now than it has in reality, I'll just put it that way.
I want to find a small town that isn't on the map.
...which will be on the map of the websites mentioned above. Your glee in finding this spankin' new place will be short lived as you observe the half dozen other players bouncing around in it.
I want to find a destroyed place that was clearly the scene of some previous large battle, I want to be able to figure out what happened there (the lore) and perhaps find a cool weapon that was buried beneath the carnage.
See above. In short, the only way to do the things you want in a way that uniquely serves you is in a single player game. If not, tons of other players will get that same cool weapon, and thus, it won't be cool, anymore.
I want an interesting world that I HAVE to explore to find quests/items/xp and fun. Not one that starts me in a town and then leads me by the hand through visibly marked NPCs all the way to max level.
Ever tried to keep a secret on the internet? If you were around during the first and second gen MMO's out there which had no ? npc's, built in maps or guides, you'd know that what I mentioned above isn't just something that would happen, it's something that DID happen. Within 6 months of an MMO's release, you had maps of every area, along with the best areas to grind for XP at X level, along with easter eggs, etc... The only difference is that you had to find it online instead of it being built into the client.
I'm also not saying every game should be this way, which is why I told the OP who seemed to enjoy the same style of things to stay away from the mainstream games. The majority want it as easy as can be and for it to require no thinking in any form, so that is what the mainstream games are made for.
Really, the only way to pull this off would be through instanced areas where a random event may or may not occur, or it will be out in the non-instanced area, with dozens of people camped around it. GW2, to my understanding, will be attempting 1 of these 2 things, maybe even random events in random places, and we'll see how that plays out.
Either way, I see LotRO as a terrific game for explorers. You can't fast travel to a place til' you've been there, the area on the map doesn't show until you've been there, and they're all pretty good sized zones with beautiful landscapes and ruins. All you have to do is turn off quest guides, turn off floaty names, and you'll find all the things you're talking about, here, sans the bit that you don't want to admit that you want: A unique experience that none of the other hundreds of thousands of players experienced. Barring some superficial changes, like different boss mobs(see LotRO - Skirmishes), this isn't gonna happen even in the distant future.
MMO's can't personally give you your own unique experience. Only you can do that.
Exploration, in a basic sense, has not gone away. You can still wander around and look at things in any game.
It's not quite as exciting when you have a big old honking GPS map showing you the way. But I suppose you could disable that or try not to look at it.
I think what people may mean when they complain of a lack of exploration is several things. One is a yearning for undirected play, where your adventures are a product of your travels that are not neatly mapped out for you by quest NPCs. Another is the thrill of finding things that are not always easy to find, which requires poking around, making discoveries and sometimes solving mysteries. A third is the notion that there should be a point to exploration, versus there being nothing to find that you can do other than in your designated level appropriate area. And finally, that the ability to read and interpret quest hints, and then navigate through a challenging world, is a gaming skill that has been all but lost because it is no longer needed.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Exploration, in a basic sense, has not gone away. You can still wander around and look at things in any game.
It's not quite as exciting when you have a big old honking GPS map showing you the way. But I suppose you could disable that or try not to look at it.
I think what people may mean when they complain of a lack of exploration is several things. One is a yearning for undirected play, where your adventures are a product of your travels that are not neatly mapped out for you by quest NPCs. Another is the thrill of finding things that are not always easy to find, which requires poking around, making discoveries and sometimes solving mysteries. A third is the notion that there should be a point to exploration, versus there being nothing to find that you can do other than in your designated level appropriate area. And finally, that the ability to read and interpret quest hints, and then navigate through a challenging world, is a gaming skill that has been all but lost because it is no longer needed.
This.. Well you could have just qfe'd my boring post above, J/K lol :P
I have a bad habit of saying a whole bunch, yet at the same time saying very little. You obviously don't, this is basically what I was trying to say. Kudos!
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
.... There is nothing blocking me from going anywhere I want to in WOW besides my level of course=)
Which is one factor that makes WOW have piss poor exploration. How do you explore when you are so limited? The answer is: you can only explore in a limited fashion.
That kind of exploration is very unappealing and shallow if you ask me.
what MMO has not had similar?
EvE you get blasted going to 0.0 sec without weeks/months of training and proper tier2 ships.
UO you'd get curb stomped if you didn't have a few skills gm'd.
EQ you'd be pwnd if not high enough level, you'd get one shot.
SWG you'd get raped if you didn't have enough skill boxes for places like Endor etc.
All MMOs have had some form of character progression, and as such areas that required you to have progressed some in order to survive going there.
mm eve exploration is risky business be it low level or high level!its one world remember it might not seems like it but it make a world of a difference and if you go sightseeing in sector 0.0 i do hope you bring your tinfoil hat!
Exploration, in a basic sense, has not gone away. You can still wander around and look at things in any game.
It's not quite as exciting when you have a big old honking GPS map showing you the way. But I suppose you could disable that or try not to look at it.
I think what people may mean when they complain of a lack of exploration is several things. One is a yearning for undirected play, where your adventures are a product of your travels that are not neatly mapped out for you by quest NPCs. Another is the thrill of finding things that are not always easy to find, which requires poking around, making discoveries and sometimes solving mysteries. A third is the notion that there should be a point to exploration, versus there being nothing to find that you can do other than in your designated level appropriate area. And finally, that the ability to read and interpret quest hints, and then navigate through a challenging world, is a gaming skill that has been all but lost because it is no longer needed.
That's a good assessment. I think, in LotRO, you can turn all that off, including the GPS map. When it comes to software of all kinds, the rule is that a choice is better than just having one or the other.
I was surprised when I saw that Darkfall had the GPS mappy thing. But then I suppose flipping to the full screen map can get ya killed pretty easily.
mm eve exploration is risky business be it low level or high level!its one world remember it might not seems like it but it make a world of a difference and if you go sightseeing in sector 0.0 i do hope you bring your tinfoil hat!
cause you might see unfriendly!
Eve is a good example, I prefer the early approach that was taken with galaxies (launch). Before they had huge green arrows pointing you every where (uhg). In SWG you were just left to your own devices on what to do, where to go, and exploring the world/s was fun and exciting, as well as rewarding.
To find anything (without looking up a wp on the web) you had to search and search, every once in a while you'd find a clue (such as the way to Jabba's Palace). Why they added these POI's to the V map later on, was beyond me. Having to find them made it all the more exciting to find it.
My first day in galaxies was spent with a group of about 5 people (we had all just met), we wanted to find Jabbas palace. But we didn't want to cheat. SO we ventured off, every once in awhile we'd pass by other groups we'd ask them things like which direction to Jabba's, we'd get replies with just a heading. (IE SW)
We had started out in Mos eisley without any clue on where Jabbas's was. It took us hours but we found it. It's probably my favorite gaming memory.We ended up forming a long lasting guild after that as well. Had a similar experience with the release of a Bunker on Dantooine with one of the same guys. We ventured all over for hours until we found it. Good times.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Eve is a good example, I prefer the early approach that was taken with galaxies (launch). Before they had huge green arrows pointing you every where (uhg). In SWG you were just left to your own devices on what to do, where to go, and exploring the world/s was fun and exciting, as well as rewarding.
To find anything (without looking up a wp on the web) you had to search and search, every once in a while you'd find a clue (such as the way to Jabba's Palace). Why they added these POI's to the V map later on, was beyond me. Having to find them made it all the more exciting to find it.
My first day in galaxies was spent with a group of about 5 people (we had all just met), we wanted to find Jabbas palace. But we didn't want to cheat. SO we ventured off, every once in awhile we'd pass by other groups we'd ask them things like which direction to Jabba's, we'd get replies with just a heading. (IE SW)
We had started out in Mos eisley without any clue on where Jabbas's was. It took us hours but we found it. It's probably my favorite gaming memory.We ended up forming a long lasting guild after that as well. Had a similar experience with the release of a Bunker on Dantooine with one of the same guys. We ventured all over for hours until we found it. Good times.
Some really just don't get into what I high lighted above, and that's the real issue. Many people when left to their own devices panic, give up, or turn to others. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a different type of person.
Thus we see the fundamental divide.
Also isn't it odd that in a universe as technologically advanced as Star Wars they didn't have GPS and waypoints and detail maps?
Now I can see a fantasy game where you only have maps, like paper/leather maps, even player built and traded maps, and no little pointer on the map telling you your exact position.
That way explorers could be useful members of the community, creating the maps all the other players follow.
But I do admit as cool as that idea sounds to me, it'd be a real pain in the butt in terms of actual game play. I'd rather know where I'm going and know how to get there and have the challenge be what I do when I'm there, not the journey there.
Yes, that's a very anti-lord of the rings kind of great adventure statement to make, but it's a video game. And there was only one ring of power, not one for every player on the server. It just doesn't work as well in the MMO setting I'm sorry.
I blame the spoonfed generation for the downfall of MMO industry.
[Mod Edit]
Because THAT'S an original and intriguing opinion to possess and share with us...
I blame the die-hards who can't get over the fact that their precious little genre has evolved and adapted to include new play styles and new type of gamers, both of which are a great thing because they have expanded the market and allowed for a massive increase in the number of games being developed and the availability of funding!
And to be honest there are about a half dozen "old school" games that have tried to go back to the "original" pre-evolved form of MMOs and they've all been low budget flops or straight up scams.
I truly do hope that one day they'll make an "old school" MMO for all you hold-outs and you'll love it and it'll be awesome and you'll never want to nor have to play another game again..
Maybe then you'll stop whining and trolling forums.
But until that day.. I'll look back fondly on the great times I had in UO and SWG at release... but I won't waste my time pining for things that will never return.
It is straight to the point and accurate. It is really about gaming experience and you used to get that , these days the MMOs are not that anymore they are glorified Arena game with end game in a week. No real longevity , no challenge , not a lot of content , flooded with automated features.
Nah they aren't even games anymore well no by the definition that you actually have to play it's all easy mode. MUDs' 15 years old are more challenge.
So sad.... The genre evolving is not an issue the lack of challenge is.
The person trolling is yourself.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I propose a compromise, a large world for players to explore...
.
But, every so often they find a teleportport device, like several game miles apart. You can only use these devices after you have discovered them. And you can only teleport to devices you have discovered.
.
The first time through an area you explore. The second time through it's a commute.
.
This plan would emphasize exploring and reduce commuting.
The same as WoW's flight masters - unless you roll a DK. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I think the flight point system in WoW is a good way to handle long distance travel.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
It is straight to the point and accurate. It is really about gaming experience and you used to get that , these days the MMOs are not that anymore they are glorified Arena game with end game in a week. No real longevity , no challenge , not a lot of content , flooded with automated features.
Nah they aren't even games anymore well no by the definition that you actually have to play it's all easy mode. MUDs' 15 years old are more challenge.
So sad.... The genre evolving is not an issue the lack of challenge is.
Define "content" -
Define "challenge" -
Define "longevity" -
Define 'games" and "playing" -
I mean, I've seen this exact same post from about 500 other posters on this site and not one of them has been able to rationally and logically explain their reasoning without sounding quite unintelligent.
It's like a politician talking in "talking points" and "buzz words" without providing ANY real substance or information.
Please, clarify?
And yes, I do find this very relevant to the discussion in progress about exploration...
there exists this great conspiracy on mmorpg.com that devs try and make games that are no good and no fun.
They try and make games that make lots of money. Quality and fun are irrelevant to the process.
That makes absolutely no sense. If a game isn't fun or is low quality, it won't make much, if any money. It's like saying politicians are trying to wreck the country on purpose to get re-elected.
If you're saying they make games on the cheap to get box profits then let the game die, there is such a developer and its name rhymes with lipstick... but most of the games out in the past few years, failures or successes, had alot of money put into them. If they aren't high quality, if they aren't FUN, they will NOT make any money.
That makes absolutely no sense. If a game isn't fun or is low quality, it won't make much, if any money. It's like saying politicians are trying to wreck the country on purpose to get re-elected.
Quite so.
If you're saying they make games on the cheap to get box profits then let the game die, there is such a developer and its name rhymes with lipstick...
Correct.
but most of the games out in the past few years, failures or successes, had alot of money put into them. If they aren't high quality, if they aren't FUN, they will NOT make any money.
War Hammer Online.
I didn't say it was a smart plan. I never said MMO devs were particularly smart people.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
.... There is nothing blocking me from going anywhere I want to in WOW besides my level of course=)
Which is one factor that makes WOW have piss poor exploration. How do you explore when you are so limited? The answer is: you can only explore in a limited fashion.
That kind of exploration is very unappealing and shallow if you ask me.
what MMO has not had similar?
EvE you get blasted going to 0.0 sec without weeks/months of training and proper tier2 ships.
UO you'd get curb stomped if you didn't have a few skills gm'd.
EQ you'd be pwnd if not high enough level, you'd get one shot.
SWG you'd get raped if you didn't have enough skill boxes for places like Endor etc.
All MMOs have had some form of character progression, and as such areas that required you to have progressed some in order to survive going there.
Wrong.
A game that I'm currently playing has this, it's called Darkfall. This game has a huge open seamless world with no restrictions. That's exploration.
Broaden your horizons.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Exploration, in a basic sense, has not gone away. You can still wander around and look at things in any game.
It's not quite as exciting when you have a big old honking GPS map showing you the way. But I suppose you could disable that or try not to look at it.
I think what people may mean when they complain of a lack of exploration is several things. One is a yearning for undirected play, where your adventures are a product of your travels that are not neatly mapped out for you by quest NPCs. Another is the thrill of finding things that are not always easy to find, which requires poking around, making discoveries and sometimes solving mysteries. A third is the notion that there should be a point to exploration, versus there being nothing to find that you can do other than in your designated level appropriate area. And finally, that the ability to read and interpret quest hints, and then navigate through a challenging world, is a gaming skill that has been all but lost because it is no longer needed.
That's a good assessment. I think, in LotRO, you can turn all that off, including the GPS map. When it comes to software of all kinds, the rule is that a choice is better than just having one or the other.
I was surprised when I saw that Darkfall had the GPS mappy thing. But then I suppose flipping to the full screen map can get ya killed pretty easily.
I think part of the desire for exploration and discovery is social, too. While I'm sure it doesn't apply to all of them, there's certainly a desire in many explorers to be appreciated for their efforts. While players in WoW stand around in Iron Forge showing off their latest raid gear, explorers would like to stand around with their cool-looking, rarely seen weapon/hat/pet/whatever. It's a badge of accomplishment, it's a source of conversation for non-explorers, it's something to discuss with other explorers.
These days, turning off minimaps and quest hints might give players the sense of personal exploration, but it's not going to get them any of the social rewards that used to be a given in exploration games. No one's going to be terribly appreciative when they see an explorer wearing something they themselves got and sold to a vendor just by following the glowing "!" trail. Part of the thrill for explorers, I'm guessing, is discovering things that most people couldn't, not discovering things everyone already did, and did more easily.
To that point, I'm fairly certain that explorers are the people who, in Asheron's Call, were the ones who took a vacation day from work when patches were released in order to be the first to solve the new quests, running all over the world, talking to every NPC in every village until they found a bread crumb that would lead them to the next and the next and so on. They then stood around a town center displaying the reward and hinting enigmatically about how they got it. You still see that sort of thing in modern games, but most of the players doing it are no long the Bartle "Explorer" types, but are instead the "Achiever" types talking about how they raided the whatsit and beat the whosit.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the way modern games are made, but I definitely empathize with the OPs desire for something different than what we have now. I think every last one of us would be better off if some (not all, just some) of these major studios would stopped spending $100 million on one game that tries to do everything to some degree, and instead spent $30 million on three games that do very specific things to the Nth degree. "The jack-of-all-trades, master of none" adage seems particularly appropriate. Then again, my degree was from the Cornish Shool of Fine Arts, not Harvard Business, so I might be better off just painting a picture of a sad Night Elf in clown makeup.
Exploring is dead to older players because the world doesn't change too much in MMO's. I'm sure we can all remember the first day we entered a MMO and walked around and explored the new game world you just bought..thinking "This is awesome"...but after time its just becomes the same of same old your passing by becuase it never changes....I'm sure when everyone played wow for the first time exploring with no add ons was a bit tricky....but i bet everyone here can draw a diagram on how to lvl from 1-80 as any race or any class they pick. you Probaly have a list of favorite addons..you probaly bought a chinese lvler just to skip all that nonsense.....thats becaase its same old same old...achievements for discovering places is like a false sense of exploring the world but you won't ever go back to it . maybe they should make a achievement on how many times you can explore dalaran by going in a circle ..what someone needs to do is make a evolving world that shifts depending on whats either players are doing or what the envoiriment is doing to it....maybe have spawning dungeons...or real random chests in the forests that give good items....maybe moving resources..evolving towns ..quests some kinda meaning...storyings with backbone for ppl who like storys.....I remember the addon that told you where are the nodes are!! come on...or even the websites that tells you where everything is located...or the guide books ppl buy....Even then most sandboxs end up being same old same olds at times...nothing really changing so they never really catch on...But I guess were all destined for MMO's that are so ez that you have to go back to games made in the 90s for a challage....come on i swear those games kicked my ass...but then agian no one likes there ass getting handed to them by a game do they..lol
my 2 cents...take it....spend it...hate it
Played:TheRealm,FFXI,WoW,FE,Eve Playing: Nothing( stuck on a ship) Future play: FFXIV,SW:TOR
Comments
My gosh, that's not in the slightest why they failed. It had nothing to do with a mix of mmo & fps. Just seems like a delusional stretch to me.
But back on topic of Exploration. A freedom of game-play environment is sorely needed that doesnt have or minimizes pre-determined point-to-point npc quests and opens the game-play virtual world to player development, balancing and exploration for discovery of most game-play needs.
the pvp in wow is for the most part targeted at fps player!the rest is like you say but the pvp in vanilla open world that market isnt covered anymore by wow .ho they tried with av and wsg but its just not it at all!
and the puzzle original wow was booted too!will they change a half full half empty model to please what made them huge in vanilla while keeping their new casual player base?good question !they didnt bother with it in bc or wotlk so its safe to assume they ll just cover casual and fps pvp player!
I agree. If a company wants to make a hybrid FPS/RPG/MMO, take some pointers from successful franchises like Deus Ex. That was the perfect combo of FPS and RPG IMO. Of course the storyline was bloody awesome and that just drew you in further. But the point is that just like a hybrid class in WoW or any other game, a hybrid FPS/RPG/MMO sacrifices excellence in specific areas to allow that combination.
insanex
Who said that? I didn't I just said WOW isn't the game the player I was referring to would enjoy. The whole of the design went into it's Themepark principle. I don't eat pizza just so I can have some peperoni. I eat pizza because of the whole that is the pizza, I wouldn't pay for a whole pizza just so I can have a couple peperoni.
If that's to much to understand, do you go to a themepark just to ride one roller-coaster over and over again, add infinium? No.. well most likely no, the themepark you pick depends greatly on the overall experience it offers. Just like you don't go to a ball game to buy a hat, you can get a hat anywhere, you go for the experience. Otherwise it's a waste of money, If it's exploration I want I'll look for a game that encourages it as well as is designed around it.
I'd say early on WOW was, as it took it's beginning roots from the games that had come before. Exploration was a big part of these games. Today WOW has a different appeal, it's left it's roots behind, just like the genre has basically done.I don't blame them for this, however I do acknowledge as a whole the genre itself has left these features in the dust, in favor of instant gratification and instant ACTION. If you haven't seen it yet, pop your head up a little more often.
Every single game has a bit of exploring to it, or could be percieved as such. The fundamental difference is, once you've seen it the exploration is over, as it's just visual exploration. What people seem to want is deeper exploration, where lore is presented in an interesting way as opposed to through text given to you as part of a fetch or kill quest.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
lol if i was beginning to compare it would be like this:just the price tag of wow is better then free realm!
freerealm:5$ a month if i recall no buying of game etc
wow:original
burning cruisade
wrath of the lich king
soon:cataclysm so a total of what 100$ 150 $ just to buy it you havent started to play yet ! it will cost between 30 and 40 $ per month depanding on langage, where you live etc.
so if you have to justify wow!before i could say in original wow dam im enjoying this game ton of fun
today i ll will have just has mutch fun in freerealm and the total cost will be 5$ a month cant be more casual you can play 5 minute and accomplish something ,a thing you couldnt do in vanilla wow.
so if i have to chose between a mo called wow or a mo called free realm ,i got to say free realm is a better choice
i would never have said that if blizzard had kept what made us love original wow but since both are casual mo game
the comparision is good!worst freerealm is playable in a browser lol!one more big plus it can reach a way bigger audience the wow could ever hope !
Exploration, in a basic sense, has not gone away. You can still wander around and look at things in any game.
It's not quite as exciting when you have a big old honking GPS map showing you the way. But I suppose you could disable that or try not to look at it.
I think what people may mean when they complain of a lack of exploration is several things. One is a yearning for undirected play, where your adventures are a product of your travels that are not neatly mapped out for you by quest NPCs. Another is the thrill of finding things that are not always easy to find, which requires poking around, making discoveries and sometimes solving mysteries. A third is the notion that there should be a point to exploration, versus there being nothing to find that you can do other than in your designated level appropriate area. And finally, that the ability to read and interpret quest hints, and then navigate through a challenging world, is a gaming skill that has been all but lost because it is no longer needed.
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Please stay on topic and refrain from personal attacks.
Fortune favours the bold.
This.. Well you could have just qfe'd my boring post above, J/K lol :P
I have a bad habit of saying a whole bunch, yet at the same time saying very little. You obviously don't, this is basically what I was trying to say. Kudos!
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
what MMO has not had similar?
EvE you get blasted going to 0.0 sec without weeks/months of training and proper tier2 ships.
UO you'd get curb stomped if you didn't have a few skills gm'd.
EQ you'd be pwnd if not high enough level, you'd get one shot.
SWG you'd get raped if you didn't have enough skill boxes for places like Endor etc.
All MMOs have had some form of character progression, and as such areas that required you to have progressed some in order to survive going there.
mm eve exploration is risky business be it low level or high level!its one world remember it might not seems like it but it make a world of a difference and if you go sightseeing in sector 0.0 i do hope you bring your tinfoil hat!
cause you might see unfriendly!
That's a good assessment. I think, in LotRO, you can turn all that off, including the GPS map. When it comes to software of all kinds, the rule is that a choice is better than just having one or the other.
I was surprised when I saw that Darkfall had the GPS mappy thing. But then I suppose flipping to the full screen map can get ya killed pretty easily.
Eve is a good example, I prefer the early approach that was taken with galaxies (launch). Before they had huge green arrows pointing you every where (uhg). In SWG you were just left to your own devices on what to do, where to go, and exploring the world/s was fun and exciting, as well as rewarding.
To find anything (without looking up a wp on the web) you had to search and search, every once in a while you'd find a clue (such as the way to Jabba's Palace). Why they added these POI's to the V map later on, was beyond me. Having to find them made it all the more exciting to find it.
My first day in galaxies was spent with a group of about 5 people (we had all just met), we wanted to find Jabbas palace. But we didn't want to cheat. SO we ventured off, every once in awhile we'd pass by other groups we'd ask them things like which direction to Jabba's, we'd get replies with just a heading. (IE SW)
We had started out in Mos eisley without any clue on where Jabbas's was. It took us hours but we found it. It's probably my favorite gaming memory.We ended up forming a long lasting guild after that as well. Had a similar experience with the release of a Bunker on Dantooine with one of the same guys. We ventured all over for hours until we found it. Good times.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Some really just don't get into what I high lighted above, and that's the real issue. Many people when left to their own devices panic, give up, or turn to others. It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just a different type of person.
Thus we see the fundamental divide.
Also isn't it odd that in a universe as technologically advanced as Star Wars they didn't have GPS and waypoints and detail maps?
Now I can see a fantasy game where you only have maps, like paper/leather maps, even player built and traded maps, and no little pointer on the map telling you your exact position.
That way explorers could be useful members of the community, creating the maps all the other players follow.
But I do admit as cool as that idea sounds to me, it'd be a real pain in the butt in terms of actual game play. I'd rather know where I'm going and know how to get there and have the challenge be what I do when I'm there, not the journey there.
Yes, that's a very anti-lord of the rings kind of great adventure statement to make, but it's a video game. And there was only one ring of power, not one for every player on the server. It just doesn't work as well in the MMO setting I'm sorry.
It is straight to the point and accurate. It is really about gaming experience and you used to get that , these days the MMOs are not that anymore they are glorified Arena game with end game in a week. No real longevity , no challenge , not a lot of content , flooded with automated features.
Nah they aren't even games anymore well no by the definition that you actually have to play it's all easy mode. MUDs' 15 years old are more challenge.
So sad.... The genre evolving is not an issue the lack of challenge is.
The person trolling is yourself.
________________________________________________________
Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
The same as WoW's flight masters - unless you roll a DK. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I think the flight point system in WoW is a good way to handle long distance travel.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Define "content" -
Define "challenge" -
Define "longevity" -
Define 'games" and "playing" -
I mean, I've seen this exact same post from about 500 other posters on this site and not one of them has been able to rationally and logically explain their reasoning without sounding quite unintelligent.
It's like a politician talking in "talking points" and "buzz words" without providing ANY real substance or information.
Please, clarify?
And yes, I do find this very relevant to the discussion in progress about exploration...
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
trial eq1 !you will get what he means within 30 minute ,then compare what you experienced in eq1 to wotlk wow
I'd wager very few if any devs want to be bad at their jobs and just make money.
Now producers, publishers, marketers, retailers...
I mean look at Wall Street, being bad at your job (predicting the markets) can make you millions.
That makes absolutely no sense. If a game isn't fun or is low quality, it won't make much, if any money. It's like saying politicians are trying to wreck the country on purpose to get re-elected.
If you're saying they make games on the cheap to get box profits then let the game die, there is such a developer and its name rhymes with lipstick... but most of the games out in the past few years, failures or successes, had alot of money put into them. If they aren't high quality, if they aren't FUN, they will NOT make any money.
War Hammer Online.
I didn't say it was a smart plan. I never said MMO devs were particularly smart people.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Wrong.
A game that I'm currently playing has this, it's called Darkfall. This game has a huge open seamless world with no restrictions. That's exploration.
Broaden your horizons.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I think part of the desire for exploration and discovery is social, too. While I'm sure it doesn't apply to all of them, there's certainly a desire in many explorers to be appreciated for their efforts. While players in WoW stand around in Iron Forge showing off their latest raid gear, explorers would like to stand around with their cool-looking, rarely seen weapon/hat/pet/whatever. It's a badge of accomplishment, it's a source of conversation for non-explorers, it's something to discuss with other explorers.
These days, turning off minimaps and quest hints might give players the sense of personal exploration, but it's not going to get them any of the social rewards that used to be a given in exploration games. No one's going to be terribly appreciative when they see an explorer wearing something they themselves got and sold to a vendor just by following the glowing "!" trail. Part of the thrill for explorers, I'm guessing, is discovering things that most people couldn't, not discovering things everyone already did, and did more easily.
To that point, I'm fairly certain that explorers are the people who, in Asheron's Call, were the ones who took a vacation day from work when patches were released in order to be the first to solve the new quests, running all over the world, talking to every NPC in every village until they found a bread crumb that would lead them to the next and the next and so on. They then stood around a town center displaying the reward and hinting enigmatically about how they got it. You still see that sort of thing in modern games, but most of the players doing it are no long the Bartle "Explorer" types, but are instead the "Achiever" types talking about how they raided the whatsit and beat the whosit.
I don't think there's anything wrong with the way modern games are made, but I definitely empathize with the OPs desire for something different than what we have now. I think every last one of us would be better off if some (not all, just some) of these major studios would stopped spending $100 million on one game that tries to do everything to some degree, and instead spent $30 million on three games that do very specific things to the Nth degree. "The jack-of-all-trades, master of none" adage seems particularly appropriate. Then again, my degree was from the Cornish Shool of Fine Arts, not Harvard Business, so I might be better off just painting a picture of a sad Night Elf in clown makeup.
Exploring is dead to older players because the world doesn't change too much in MMO's. I'm sure we can all remember the first day we entered a MMO and walked around and explored the new game world you just bought..thinking "This is awesome"...but after time its just becomes the same of same old your passing by becuase it never changes....I'm sure when everyone played wow for the first time exploring with no add ons was a bit tricky....but i bet everyone here can draw a diagram on how to lvl from 1-80 as any race or any class they pick. you Probaly have a list of favorite addons..you probaly bought a chinese lvler just to skip all that nonsense.....thats becaase its same old same old...achievements for discovering places is like a false sense of exploring the world but you won't ever go back to it . maybe they should make a achievement on how many times you can explore dalaran by going in a circle ..what someone needs to do is make a evolving world that shifts depending on whats either players are doing or what the envoiriment is doing to it....maybe have spawning dungeons...or real random chests in the forests that give good items....maybe moving resources..evolving towns ..quests some kinda meaning...storyings with backbone for ppl who like storys.....I remember the addon that told you where are the nodes are!! come on...or even the websites that tells you where everything is located...or the guide books ppl buy....Even then most sandboxs end up being same old same olds at times...nothing really changing so they never really catch on...But I guess were all destined for MMO's that are so ez that you have to go back to games made in the 90s for a challage....come on i swear those games kicked my ass...but then agian no one likes there ass getting handed to them by a game do they..lol
my 2 cents...take it....spend it...hate it
Played:TheRealm,FFXI,WoW,FE,Eve
Playing: Nothing( stuck on a ship)
Future play: FFXIV,SW:TOR