There is more things wrong with WoW now than just Gearscore. The playerbase being the it's biggest fault. I long for the days of the more mature EQ1 and AC1 populations.
Which EQ1 were you playing? Every time you see a "locked" mob attacking another player in a MMO, that's a design change that came from EQ1 killstealing.
The OP wanted to believe that April Fools Joke soooooo much that he bit hook, line and sinker.
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Oftentimes you can carry someone with a low gear score. That way they can gear up.
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But if you and your guild are having trouble on a raid encounter and you need some help, you can't carry someone. That's where gear score comes in handy.
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Some people use gear score because they don't want to be bothered carrying poorly geared people, they want to get done in 5 minutes. I don't agree with this. Me and my guildies carry people all the time.
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Each tier will comprise all players within a certain number range, and players will only be able to group with, talk to, or see other players in the same tier as themselves. --Blizzard
Uh, I never read anything about an april fools joke about gearscore. I had nothing to do with wow since oct until now. I had no idea about that. Please read where I corrected my self. Thanks
When you make a game entirely centered around gear statistics and the acquisition of gear this is only to be expected. Lets face it the difference between an ungeared toon and a fully geared toon in this game is massive. It's inevitable someone would find a way to quantify it and set arbitrary standards. Gear-centric IS bad design
I have full compliance here with your statement. Thanks for understanding. Gear centric design works but it takes no effort in any design to show your audience your talent. I am one who is not simple but complexity if done right can go along way to make the game interesting. Instead we see designers using lazy game design to get a quick buck.
I for one, hope that newer mmorpgs and current existing ones do not adapt this gear score mechanic at all because it ruins all factors of the qualities of true mmorpg aspects. Futhurmore, gearscore is just mortor to the corner stone of gear which should be not be used to it's degree. Gear in mmorpgs should be only about 25% advantage for players whether it is PVE or PVP. In my own personal opinion to shy away from gear being completely dependent for players “skill level”; is to design a diverse combat system which complements a deep structure class system where players can develop skill by strategy rather than gear. Gear should be a perk to help you progress easier which will balance out most other mechanics later on not a major contributing factor for all progression. Remember, mmorpgs are suppose to be for, community and adventure.
Note* Edited post because I had disinformation
That would be nice, but to the devs - MMOs are about massive subscription rates, and most players don't want a game which requires skill to succeed.
Yes it would be nice. The mmos designed before 2004 had these qualities. There needs to be a new mmo that goes back to the true nature of what mmos are about. You're exactly right about newer games trying to feed as much cash as they can with their lazy game design.
There is a better way, how about giving people the benefit of the doubt and if they suck then kick them? It seems that WoW is all about maximizing these days and not just about having fun. A lot of people want all reward no risk thus using GS so they make sure they don't waste time and money on a wipe. I understand that, those things aren't fun but you can't always win and the bitter things make the sweet things that much sweeter.
FFXI as you probably know is a group based game and not once did anyone ever say your gear sucks you can't join us. I'd say 90% of the parties I joined were PUG's and most of the time things went well. If someone sucked ass at playing then we kicked them and tried another person.
Gear shouldn't make the player, and like others said WoW has always been like that. You could actually be a kickass player that is under geared and they won't give you the benefit of the doubt and give you that chance.The thing is that GS is some random persons Opinion on what gear you should have to do things. Can these raids be done with a lower gear score? I'm guessing yes they can if your actually a good player. Maybe people just stopped liking challenges or something or the element of surprise..
IDK about all of you guys but it makes me feel good when Im in a party and we pull off something when the odds are against us. It gets the whole parties morale going and it feels nice to be playing with people who are actually good players. To me GS is used to make sure everything will go as smooth as possible, which to me sounds boring.
Sure, those kinds of challenges are fun with a group of friends or a guild. PuG raids are usually for fast badges/loot on an offnight.
I also played final fantasy 11, and groups do not ask for your gear, but you definitely get judged on other things, like mission status (what rank) and how many jobs you have max. And as you get closer to max level people most definitely check out your gear for the more difficult content. Your comparison would be like saying someone asked for your gearscore for an elite quest or leveling dungeon.
I would be willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt if there were no other options, but if I have 25 people whispering me their stats for a raid, why am I going to randomly go with an undergeared player? This is usually during the day too, if you try and form a raid at prime time in WoW I can usually get 40-50 whispers for those 6-7 DPS slots I usually need.
The best geared players are going to get picked first no matter what you do, and if you are a dps, that may mean you need a pretty high gearscore to get a spot. The other night for a 10 man ICC raid on my feral tank druid, the lowest gearscored dps I had was 5760, my tank has about 5600 gearscore. The people who whispered me for an invite ranged from 4000-6500 gearscore, and it was about 35 whispers. It just saves time and gets us into the raid faster to take the highest GS people.
Honestly people you can complain about it, or you can login and do a few heroics and upgrade your gear. Maybe try offspecing tank or healer if possible and gearing up that way. Its a billion times easier to get gear for a dps spec/class if you have friends and guilds behind you, unless you like waiting in town for some action.
I have been told that Blizzard actually allowed and designed a gear score concept into WoW and now will be apart of its core design. That didn’t really surprise me at all.
Completely false.
You are probably thinking about the April Fools Day joke where Blizzard mocked Gearscore.
Blizzard agrees that the player base is abusing the Gearscore mod but there is nothing they can do about it. They could ban Gearscore but people would find other ways to discriminate.
Also, you make it sound like people discriminating others based on simple things is exclusive to WoW. Sorry, but again, you are completely wrong.
Thanks for the insight, I wasn't aware and I apologize, will edit the thread. Thanks.
Gear score yes.. BUT.. remember.. Blizzard started the entire 'tiering" of gear and even PUTTING a item level number.. plus adding "achievements" to get higher level epics items.. Blizzard "technically" didnt' do the gear score BS, but their hands are NOT clean from the drama that stems from it.. As the OP suggested.. GEAR should NEVER have been the deciding factor if you win or lose a boss fight.. NEVER.. That is Blizzards fault 100% to design that gameplay mechanics
Must comment, Played WoW since release up until 6 months ago in a hardcore raiding environment. Gear is important to an extent. Without certain stats/gear (regardless of skill) you will encounter enrage timers... they wipe raids, they were designed that way for a reason. Granted I did miss the whole gear-score being implemented.. thank god.
I for one, hope that newer mmorpgs and current existing ones do not adapt this gear score mechanic at all because it ruins all factors of the qualities of true mmorpg aspects. Futhurmore, gearscore is just mortor to the corner stone of gear which should be not be used to it's degree. Gear in mmorpgs should be only about 25% advantage for players whether it is PVE or PVP. In my own personal opinion to shy away from gear being completely dependent for players “skill level”; is to design a diverse combat system which complements a deep structure class system where players can develop skill by strategy rather than gear. Gear should be a perk to help you progress easier which will balance out most other mechanics later on not a major contributing factor for all progression. Remember, mmorpgs are suppose to be for, community and adventure.
Note* Edited post because I had disinformation
That would be nice, but to the devs - MMOs are about massive subscription rates, and most players don't want a game which requires skill to succeed.
Yes it would be nice. The mmos designed before 2004 had these qualities. There needs to be a new mmo that goes back to the true nature of what mmos are about. You're exactly right about newer games trying to feed as much cash as they can with their lazy game design.
Yes, there does need to be such a game. Will there be? Very doubtful. Blizzard has demonstrated exactly where the mass market appeal is. The general gaming population does NOT want to have to think, use creativity/imagination nor do they have the patience to gain much skill in a games activities. The why is a fascinating(and depresssing) look at broader trends in the dumbing down of the population at large.
MMO's cost millions upon millions of (other peoples) money. Do you really think that such investors care about a games design quality? ALL they care about is the maximum Return On Investment they can get out of a given project. Intone the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft!" in their shell like ears, and watch their eyes fill up with dollar signs, and then they will throw entire truck loads of money at your project.
But it takes a complex constellation of talent, time and experience in a broad number of techincal and personnel fields to pull off what Blizzard has done. It takes even more to be able to prevent the all too typical spike at launch, and then decline as the games popualtion leaves over the months after launch.
That being the reality, what group of investors in their right mind are going to fund a project that doesn't base appeal to the mass market as its objective?
Must comment, Played WoW since release up until 6 months ago in a hardcore raiding environment. Gear is important to an extent. Without certain stats/gear (regardless of skill) you will encounter enrage timers... they wipe raids, they were designed that way for a reason. Granted I did miss the whole gear-score being implemented.. thank god.
Exactly. Many of the boss fights have that as an in built gear and rotation check. Unless your raid has a certain amount of dps, its going to wipe on those types of encounters. I'd like to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt, but I've been in the game since late beta. I'm betting that they knew(or strongly suspected) how a certain section of the player base would use these dynamics. Gear Score is just the latest example of the '733t mindset of some of the hardcore raiding types. Its basic human nature, and Blizzard is pandering to it.
I dont understand the bitching about the GearScore system, sure its abused a little bit but like some people say its the only way a stranger will know if some other stranger is even up to scratch, like the addon says "a shit random DPS with higher GS will still do better DPS than a shit random dps with lower gear score" its a fact, when people do pugs they dont want to carry anyone.
Everyone talking about vanilla and TBC you are really just talking out of your arse tbh, there were not any PUGS until very very late into TBC, in vanilla if you were not part of one of the 5 or so guilds on your server doing 40man you did not raid you had to pay 1000's of gold to even get to see MC or any other instance and have a chance at getting an epic (I know I was there I ran loads of guilds and people).
Most of you complaining would have never even set foot in these raiding instances if it werent for PUGS and this is possible because people now have found a way of mesuring what you can do that is roughly acurate sure you get the odd guy that may get shafted and knows what he is doing but in general its acurate ppl that have done it and have good gear score will perform better and successfully, if you dont have the gs go out and do some instances or just stick with questing and dont raid.
I'm not going to read all the replies to this thread... but this is how I feel about "Gear Score".
Firstly, "Gear Score" is totally and completely a creation of the player base. It is mostly a function of several addons and now several websites. Blizzard hasn't integrated it into the game at all and has not mentioned any plans to.
Secondly, "Gear Score" is a very rudimentary gauge for what a character is theoretically able to do, but some people put WAY too much stock in it. If you are with people who live or die by "Gear Score" then you need to turn around and run far and fast in the other direction. Find people that truly understand how the game works and is played and stick with them (find a good guild).
As is often said by people that know the real score, "Gear Score is a crutch..."
FYI I am an player in a moderately successful raiding guild on a fairly busy server. My "Gear Score" on my main raiding character is 3244 for whatever it's worth (which is not a darn thing). The real worth of a player is how well they can play.
/end
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
I blame data-mining sites such as thottbott or wowhead and the fact you are allowed to view each others exact gear and stats directly. (In any mmorpg, I just hate people knowing what stuff I've got under the hood).
The op is correct, very poor game design... it just brings out the very worst traits in people.
I'm not going to read all the replies to this thread... but this is how I feel about "Gear Score".
Firstly, "Gear Score" is totally and completely a creation of the player base. It is mostly a function of several addons and now several websites. Blizzard hasn't integrated it into the game at all and has not mentioned any plans to.
Secondly, "Gear Score" is a very rudimentary gauge for what a character is theoretically able to do, but some people put WAY too much stock in it. If you are with people who live or die by "Gear Score" then you need to turn around and run far and fast in the other direction. Find people that truly understand how the game works and is played and stick with them (find a good guild).
As is often said by people that know the real score, "Gear Score is a crutch..."
FYI I am an player in a moderately successful raiding guild on a fairly busy server. My "Gear Score" on my main raiding character is 3244 for whatever it's worth (which is not a darn thing). The real worth of a player is how well they can play.
/end
Honestly I dunno what to say, what have you been raiding Naxx 10? I came back and Hadnt played my character since the beginning of WoTLK and I had much higher gear score than that, 3200 is almost blue level geared as soon as you hit level 80, anyone in a raiding guild that at least does 10 man of the current content will get 4.5k to 5k very easily not to mention the badge loot you can exchange even if you did not get a single item you would still be at 4.5k+ just by trading in with tier 9 so its hard to believe you are in a moderatly successfull raiding guild maybe as a friend not as a raider. Unless ofc you are doing Karazhan and old content.
It is nothing to do with Gear Score at all its just that the level of gear you are trying to say is ridiculously low, no guild would take you anywhere when you have not even bothered to get some basic gear yourself, with gear score or no gear score you wont be doing as much or contributing as significantly as someone that has put minimal effort into acquiring some pieces.
Obviously you must use one of the other addons for "Gear Score". The widely accepted website and derived addons on my server is from www.wow-heroes.com, not that GearScore addon. The numbers tend to end up being quite different... just to get the facts straight.
------------------------- "Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
At least I must say that WoW permits a player to stop the game and come back months or even years later without having to catch up with the rest of the server for an eternity and with Cataclysm making 10 and 25 men raid equivalent in difficulty with just the 25 men having a better loot-per-person ratio it will just get even better.
With heroic dungeons giving you access to the latest Tier, there is really no excuse for a max level character to not have Tier 9 before starting raiding.
As for Gearscore, I understand its uses and as many have said when you are dealing with strangers it can be useful. There IS a better method, though, because Skill still vastly outweight Gear (And you do not have to raid to see that, just check all the hordes of Heirlooms instancers and see. Sometimes you find the ones that have no clue even if they are fully decked in heirloom stuff).
What is the better method and how can it be achieved? Ah, it is not easy and is not available right now because it requires something quite extraordinary: neutral, trustable, third party. The system is one of Certifications like it is vastly popular in today's professional world that many companies have a system to grant certifications to people through a system of exams and courses. The goal of the system is the same as Gearscore does in WoW: Companies have to hire strangers and they really cannot trust too much their CV, so certifications give them an idea that at least Dude X can do this and this, while Dude Y does not necessarily know how.
So to apply the same concept in WoW (or ANY MMOs actually) would mean to set up a web site where the database would be kept and an in-game organization. The organization must manage to be trustworthy to their server and then they can start to design series of tests or trials to grant certifications to people. These can be for different roles and for different levels... or dungeon specific or what not, but with such things you would stop depending on a mathemtical equation and start depending on the judgement of other people that, ideally, you trust.
So, Dude the Tank can show you that he has a Tank certification, level 3 and you know that he had to lead 5 raids through instance XXXX with 24 people chosen by the certifier guild succesfully achieving this or that.
Skill Over Gear. That is even a catchy name for a guild
So, this I tell to you all that do not like the GearScore phenomenon. Find a better solution and lobby to put it into action. If you do not want to... well I guess then we are just left with the second option: Bitch about it on the forums while hoping someone else does it ;D
Summarizing, what do you need?
1. the technical know how to create a web application (using PHP+jsp or ASP.net or what you like, this should be the easiest step but it will take time) (oh yeah and find a way to make an add-on that can make use of this information.. there are add-ons accessing , say, wowhead database, so it can be done)
2. Somehow gain the trust of your server or gain the support of the raid guilds of your server (ideally the Skill Over Gear guild is composed of members of such raid guilds with their blessings)
3. Design a series of intelligent trials and tests for giving certificates.
4. ??????
5. Profit!
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I'm not going to read all the replies to this thread... but this is how I feel about "Gear Score".
Firstly, "Gear Score" is totally and completely a creation of the player base. It is mostly a function of several addons and now several websites. Blizzard hasn't integrated it into the game at all and has not mentioned any plans to.
Secondly, "Gear Score" is a very rudimentary gauge for what a character is theoretically able to do, but some people put WAY too much stock in it. If you are with people who live or die by "Gear Score" then you need to turn around and run far and fast in the other direction. Find people that truly understand how the game works and is played and stick with them (find a good guild).
As is often said by people that know the real score, "Gear Score is a crutch..."
FYI I am an player in a moderately successful raiding guild on a fairly busy server. My "Gear Score" on my main raiding character is 3244 for whatever it's worth (which is not a darn thing). The real worth of a player is how well they can play.
/end
Honestly I dunno what to say, what have you been raiding Naxx 10? I came back and Hadnt played my character since the beginning of WoTLK and I had much higher gear score than that, 3200 is almost blue level geared as soon as you hit level 80, anyone in a raiding guild that at least does 10 man of the current content will get 4.5k to 5k very easily not to mention the badge loot you can exchange even if you did not get a single item you would still be at 4.5k+ just by trading in with tier 9 so its hard to believe you are in a moderatly successfull raiding guild maybe as a friend not as a raider. Unless ofc you are doing Karazhan and old content.
It is nothing to do with Gear Score at all its just that the level of gear you are trying to say is ridiculously low, no guild would take you anywhere when you have not even bothered to get some basic gear yourself, with gear score or no gear score you wont be doing as much or contributing as significantly as someone that has put minimal effort into acquiring some pieces.
I would assume he is on a WoW-Heroes server. 3200 WH score would be someone in il264 gear.
Personal anecdote:
Yesterday I run a LFD PuG and the tank mentioned that the hunter had a very low GS. He then asked if we wanted to do the extra bosses in the instance so he could get some better gear. We were mostly OK but then we had a bad pull and a wipe so just called it a night and just did the final boss.
My personal observation is that at least on my battlegroup very few people are GS obsessed unlike the dire picture the OP and other try to portray. Yesterday was the first time in months someone mentioned GS to me in a heroic and the only raids I see asking for GS are PuGs for ToGC and ICC. Even then you can easily get into a raid PuG if you know the people running it. Most importantly gearscore is a complete non-issue if you are running raids with a guild group composed of your friends.
I would assume he is on a WoW-Heroes server. 3200 WH score would be someone in il264 gear.
Personal anecdote:
Yesterday I run a LFD PuG and the tank mentioned that the hunter had a very low GS. He then asked if we wanted to do the extra bosses in the instance so he could get some better gear. We were mostly OK but then we had a bad pull and a wipe so just called it a night and just did the final boss.
My personal observation is that at least on my battlegroup very few people are GS obsessed unlike the dire picture the OP and other try to portray. Yesterday was the first time in months someone mentioned GS to me in a heroic and the only raids I see asking for GS are PuGs for ToGC and ICC. Even then you can easily get into a raid PuG if you know the people running it. Most importantly gearscore is a complete non-issue if you are running raids with a guild group composed of your friends.
This.
Also, it is ridiculously easy to get 5k gearscore from running heroic dungeons. I don't see what the problems is with people that have 3,2-4k GS whining they aren't getting spots in raids. Well of course you aren't. Raid leaders see your lack fo gear as a lack of effort, ad guess what, that effects your raid spot chances adversely.
It takes around only 10-20 hours(depending on luck) of running heroics to get 5k GS. I don't see the problem here.
At least I must say that WoW permits a player to stop the game and come back months or even years later without having to catch up with the rest of the server for an eternity and with Cataclysm making 10 and 25 men raid equivalent in difficulty with just the 25 men having a better loot-per-person ratio it will just get even better.
Which, counter-intuitively, DOESN'T help- rather it permeates the problem. Because of the ease at which gear is acquired, the treadmill churns even faster. In classic, for example, gear was so difficult to obtain that it wasn't the discriminator it is today. Guilds in AQ40 or Naxx still had main raiders who where in blues, sometimes greens. Because gear is so easy to obtain these days, it's a *requirement* that you have it. Thus, it's actually harmful in the sense you propose, not helpful.
People took breaks in classic and jumped right back into the mix months later. Today, if you take a break, expect to spend time 'getting up to speed' via emblem farming and the like. It's a system that isn't helpful, it's harmful.
With heroic dungeons giving you access to the latest Tier, there is really no excuse for a max level character to not have Tier 9 before starting raiding.
You said it, man (The Big L). You've just acknowledge the problem, albeit not being able to define it as such. When you say words explicitly like 'there is really no excuse' ... your mindset proves this problem exists.
As for Gearscore, I understand its uses and as many have said when you are dealing with strangers it can be useful. There IS a better method, though, because Skill still vastly outweight Gear (And you do not have to raid to see that, just check all the hordes of Heirlooms instancers and see. Sometimes you find the ones that have no clue even if they are fully decked in heirloom stuff).
You're still using gear as a basis for evaluation, sadly. You think you've escaped from the rut of gearscore- you've just replaced one currency with another.
What is the better method and how can it be achieved? Ah, it is not easy and is not available right now because it requires something quite extraordinary: neutral, trustable, third party. The system is one of Certifications like it is vastly popular in today's professional world that many companies have a system to grant certifications to people through a system of exams and courses. The goal of the system is the same as Gearscore does in WoW: Companies have to hire strangers and they really cannot trust too much their CV, so certifications give them an idea that at least Dude X can do this and this, while Dude Y does not necessarily know how.
It is easy. Certifications have been around since the dawn of MMORPGs. But because of how gear-focused and solo-fiendish people have become, they ignore them. They are called 'referrals' or 'word of mouth'. "Is so-and-so good?" "Hey, check your friends' lists- we need 2 dependable DPS and 1 healer".
What does a certificate do? It's a static (non-person) vouching for the individual. 'This individual knows how to work routers, because he is Cisco certified'. How does that differ from someone you know and trust giving you a lead on someone with a skillset you seek? The answer is: it differs because it's a dynamic certification, and more intimate as well. See, you claim the system is 'not easy' and 'not available', when in fact it's only all too simple, right in front of our noses, and has been available for ages.
So to apply the same concept in WoW (or ANY MMOs actually) would mean to set up a web site where the database would be kept and an in-game organization. The organization must manage to be trustworthy to their server and then they can start to design series of tests or trials to grant certifications to people. These can be for different roles and for different levels... or dungeon specific or what not, but with such things you would stop depending on a mathemtical equation and start depending on the judgement of other people that, ideally, you trust.
There's a working database ingame that will get you results much faster, and with more information that could every be housed in a third-party database: it's called 'TOP'. This unique, fashionable, state-of-the-art database yields gritty details that no out-of-game database would be able to compile with accuracy. Oh, what's 'TOP' stand for? Easy: THE OTHER PLAYERS. The logistical systems we need are already in place. We need to TAP INTO them, rather than ignore them.
Additionally, you mentioned certifications, and 'getting certified' ... but in essence is that not exactly what gearscore is doing? You're proposing a system that is prone to become the exact rubbish that is gearscore, wether you can see this or not.
So, Dude the Tank can show you that he has a Tank certification, level 3 and you know that he had to lead 5 raids through instance XXXX with 24 people chosen by the certifier guild succesfully achieving this or that.
But there is already gearscore and achievements- wouldn't they, compiled together, easily state all this and more? But yet we know that achievements and gearscore are disliked by the population at large...
Skill Over Gear. That is even a catchy name for a guild
So, this I tell to you all that do not like the GearScore phenomenon. Find a better solution and lobby to put it into action. If you do not want to... well I guess then we are just left with the second option: Bitch about it on the forums while hoping someone else does it ;D
We just did: referrals. Old school gaming. Word of mouth. Take away the game mechanics that encourage things over other people, and watch as gaming becomes better again, because the players 'play together' just like kids in a sandbox (no reference to sub-genre of MMORPGs intended). The fault is squarely the cause of things like 'gearscore', and attempting to change the effect with cert's or the like still does nothing to the source of the problem.
Summarizing, what do you need?
1. the technical know how to create a web application (using PHP+jsp or ASP.net or what you like, this should be the easiest step but it will take time) (oh yeah and find a way to make an add-on that can make use of this information.. there are add-ons accessing , say, wowhead database, so it can be done)
2. Somehow gain the trust of your server or gain the support of the raid guilds of your server (ideally the Skill Over Gear guild is composed of members of such raid guilds with their blessings)
3. Design a series of intelligent trials and tests for giving certificates.
4. ??????
5. Profit!
We don't need any of that. We need games designed without #5 in mind by developpers, that abandon a Bartle approach to getting gamers hooked, which incorporates mechanics that segregate the playerbase, and then attempt to throw resources and/or ideas at the effects rather than the causes.
Solid games. Community. <~ all we need to never see rubbish like gearscore again.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc. We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be. So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away. - MMO_Doubter
Obviously you must use one of the other addons for "Gear Score". The widely accepted website and derived addons on my server is from www.wow-heroes.com, not that GearScore addon. The numbers tend to end up being quite different... just to get the facts straight.
WTH are you on about, ofc its the addon that is the whole point of gear score, gear score is the Addon whatever website you are talking about came after that was implemented, the addon is what makes it good cause a RL can just check everyones gear score and experience on the spot, not some website that would be ridiculous LOL. Who in their right mind is going to browse a website and input the name of the character before making a PUG for everyone the addon is just very convenient target the person get the GS.
I dont think you fully understand how the GS system works, I advise you to do little more research as the Addon is what people use in game all the time to create PUGs on 90% of the servers.
And to complement what Torik said above it is true it is not as bad only people who are retarded dont get invited to groups, when I came back to play again I had very low gear score but could still complete most of the instances and knew strategies I managed to get into ICC groups and such even without the gear score by talking through with the leader, showing I had half a working brain and a bit of social engineering anyone can do this and get into groups just people get asked achievements and GS and then get a NO and give up and start whining, RL are afraid of getting stupid people in if you talk and show you know the stuff they will most of the time invite you.
A year ago it was achievements that got you into, or not into, raids. Now it's gear score and achievements. Those are some dumb ass systems to base a players potential on. Blizzard may have not wanted gear score to become what it is today but they inavertantly brought it on themselves by introducing achievements in the first place.
I've been playing again after over a year off for about a month and a half now and I'm already done again becasue of abusive systems like gear score and achievements. I mean really, I play an alt to 80, get him scored to just under 5k while grinding 5 mans (I loved the LFG tool, that is a good change btw) which was going to be good enough for the raid leader but because I didn't have the achievements I was told I can't go. What? I don't have many achievements because I rolled an alt!! Past experience and skill doesn't matter these days, if you don't have achievements and gear score, you sir are a nub.
What a serious waste of time Wow has become, and not really because of game mechanics, it's more so the fault of the community that abuses it that has poisoned WoW beyond reapair.
It's not a surprising evolution that gear score has become the seemingly standard measuring tape used for epeens today, but it is definetly disappointing. Here's to hoping that along with changing the landscape that Cataclysm will also undo a lot of what has ruined WoW over tha last 2 expansions that made it what it is today.
Well that's OK, I hear Age of Conan has improved alot and now I'm playing that again and having a blast! White Sands beach is still loaded with gankers but it's still better than being excluded blindly becasue of what is on the outside of my toon.
Screw WoW and the discriminatory childish crowd that runs it these days.
I used to love her, but I had to kill her.
AoC will hold me over till I lose my LOTRO burnout or until SW:ToR arrives.
I havent played the game for a long time since level 60 was the max level. But all the updates ive read and complaints seem to point to the fact that everything brought into the game is to give players as much more to do as possible with as little effort from devlopers such as making high level gear needed for certain raids etc. lots of games do it so to be expected suppose.
i thought age of conan was ment to be new and exciting...
Comments
Which EQ1 were you playing? Every time you see a "locked" mob attacking another player in a MMO, that's a design change that came from EQ1 killstealing.
My youtube MMO gaming channel
Well said, unfortanatlly gearscore is just a small sympton to a huge cancer of game design.
Uh, I never read anything about an april fools joke about gearscore. I had nothing to do with wow since oct until now. I had no idea about that. Please read where I corrected my self. Thanks
I have full compliance here with your statement. Thanks for understanding. Gear centric design works but it takes no effort in any design to show your audience your talent. I am one who is not simple but complexity if done right can go along way to make the game interesting. Instead we see designers using lazy game design to get a quick buck.
Yes it would be nice. The mmos designed before 2004 had these qualities. There needs to be a new mmo that goes back to the true nature of what mmos are about. You're exactly right about newer games trying to feed as much cash as they can with their lazy game design.
Sure, those kinds of challenges are fun with a group of friends or a guild. PuG raids are usually for fast badges/loot on an offnight.
I also played final fantasy 11, and groups do not ask for your gear, but you definitely get judged on other things, like mission status (what rank) and how many jobs you have max. And as you get closer to max level people most definitely check out your gear for the more difficult content. Your comparison would be like saying someone asked for your gearscore for an elite quest or leveling dungeon.
I would be willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt if there were no other options, but if I have 25 people whispering me their stats for a raid, why am I going to randomly go with an undergeared player? This is usually during the day too, if you try and form a raid at prime time in WoW I can usually get 40-50 whispers for those 6-7 DPS slots I usually need.
The best geared players are going to get picked first no matter what you do, and if you are a dps, that may mean you need a pretty high gearscore to get a spot. The other night for a 10 man ICC raid on my feral tank druid, the lowest gearscored dps I had was 5760, my tank has about 5600 gearscore. The people who whispered me for an invite ranged from 4000-6500 gearscore, and it was about 35 whispers. It just saves time and gets us into the raid faster to take the highest GS people.
Honestly people you can complain about it, or you can login and do a few heroics and upgrade your gear. Maybe try offspecing tank or healer if possible and gearing up that way. Its a billion times easier to get gear for a dps spec/class if you have friends and guilds behind you, unless you like waiting in town for some action.
Gear score yes.. BUT.. remember.. Blizzard started the entire 'tiering" of gear and even PUTTING a item level number.. plus adding "achievements" to get higher level epics items.. Blizzard "technically" didnt' do the gear score BS, but their hands are NOT clean from the drama that stems from it.. As the OP suggested.. GEAR should NEVER have been the deciding factor if you win or lose a boss fight.. NEVER.. That is Blizzards fault 100% to design that gameplay mechanics
Skill and knowledge is the deciding factor if you win or lose a boss fight. Better gear isnt going to prevent dumb people from standing in fire.
Must comment, Played WoW since release up until 6 months ago in a hardcore raiding environment. Gear is important to an extent. Without certain stats/gear (regardless of skill) you will encounter enrage timers... they wipe raids, they were designed that way for a reason. Granted I did miss the whole gear-score being implemented.. thank god.
Yes, there does need to be such a game. Will there be? Very doubtful. Blizzard has demonstrated exactly where the mass market appeal is. The general gaming population does NOT want to have to think, use creativity/imagination nor do they have the patience to gain much skill in a games activities. The why is a fascinating(and depresssing) look at broader trends in the dumbing down of the population at large.
MMO's cost millions upon millions of (other peoples) money. Do you really think that such investors care about a games design quality? ALL they care about is the maximum Return On Investment they can get out of a given project. Intone the mystic phrase; "Its just like World of Warcraft!" in their shell like ears, and watch their eyes fill up with dollar signs, and then they will throw entire truck loads of money at your project.
But it takes a complex constellation of talent, time and experience in a broad number of techincal and personnel fields to pull off what Blizzard has done. It takes even more to be able to prevent the all too typical spike at launch, and then decline as the games popualtion leaves over the months after launch.
That being the reality, what group of investors in their right mind are going to fund a project that doesn't base appeal to the mass market as its objective?
Exactly. Many of the boss fights have that as an in built gear and rotation check. Unless your raid has a certain amount of dps, its going to wipe on those types of encounters. I'd like to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt, but I've been in the game since late beta. I'm betting that they knew(or strongly suspected) how a certain section of the player base would use these dynamics. Gear Score is just the latest example of the '733t mindset of some of the hardcore raiding types. Its basic human nature, and Blizzard is pandering to it.
I dont understand the bitching about the GearScore system, sure its abused a little bit but like some people say its the only way a stranger will know if some other stranger is even up to scratch, like the addon says "a shit random DPS with higher GS will still do better DPS than a shit random dps with lower gear score" its a fact, when people do pugs they dont want to carry anyone.
Everyone talking about vanilla and TBC you are really just talking out of your arse tbh, there were not any PUGS until very very late into TBC, in vanilla if you were not part of one of the 5 or so guilds on your server doing 40man you did not raid you had to pay 1000's of gold to even get to see MC or any other instance and have a chance at getting an epic (I know I was there I ran loads of guilds and people).
Most of you complaining would have never even set foot in these raiding instances if it werent for PUGS and this is possible because people now have found a way of mesuring what you can do that is roughly acurate sure you get the odd guy that may get shafted and knows what he is doing but in general its acurate ppl that have done it and have good gear score will perform better and successfully, if you dont have the gs go out and do some instances or just stick with questing and dont raid.
I'm not going to read all the replies to this thread... but this is how I feel about "Gear Score".
Firstly, "Gear Score" is totally and completely a creation of the player base. It is mostly a function of several addons and now several websites. Blizzard hasn't integrated it into the game at all and has not mentioned any plans to.
Secondly, "Gear Score" is a very rudimentary gauge for what a character is theoretically able to do, but some people put WAY too much stock in it. If you are with people who live or die by "Gear Score" then you need to turn around and run far and fast in the other direction. Find people that truly understand how the game works and is played and stick with them (find a good guild).
As is often said by people that know the real score, "Gear Score is a crutch..."
FYI I am an player in a moderately successful raiding guild on a fairly busy server. My "Gear Score" on my main raiding character is 3244 for whatever it's worth (which is not a darn thing). The real worth of a player is how well they can play.
/end
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
I blame data-mining sites such as thottbott or wowhead and the fact you are allowed to view each others exact gear and stats directly. (In any mmorpg, I just hate people knowing what stuff I've got under the hood).
The op is correct, very poor game design... it just brings out the very worst traits in people.
Honestly I dunno what to say, what have you been raiding Naxx 10? I came back and Hadnt played my character since the beginning of WoTLK and I had much higher gear score than that, 3200 is almost blue level geared as soon as you hit level 80, anyone in a raiding guild that at least does 10 man of the current content will get 4.5k to 5k very easily not to mention the badge loot you can exchange even if you did not get a single item you would still be at 4.5k+ just by trading in with tier 9 so its hard to believe you are in a moderatly successfull raiding guild maybe as a friend not as a raider. Unless ofc you are doing Karazhan and old content.
It is nothing to do with Gear Score at all its just that the level of gear you are trying to say is ridiculously low, no guild would take you anywhere when you have not even bothered to get some basic gear yourself, with gear score or no gear score you wont be doing as much or contributing as significantly as someone that has put minimal effort into acquiring some pieces.
Obviously you must use one of the other addons for "Gear Score". The widely accepted website and derived addons on my server is from www.wow-heroes.com, not that GearScore addon. The numbers tend to end up being quite different... just to get the facts straight.
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004
At least I must say that WoW permits a player to stop the game and come back months or even years later without having to catch up with the rest of the server for an eternity and with Cataclysm making 10 and 25 men raid equivalent in difficulty with just the 25 men having a better loot-per-person ratio it will just get even better.
With heroic dungeons giving you access to the latest Tier, there is really no excuse for a max level character to not have Tier 9 before starting raiding.
As for Gearscore, I understand its uses and as many have said when you are dealing with strangers it can be useful. There IS a better method, though, because Skill still vastly outweight Gear (And you do not have to raid to see that, just check all the hordes of Heirlooms instancers and see. Sometimes you find the ones that have no clue even if they are fully decked in heirloom stuff).
What is the better method and how can it be achieved? Ah, it is not easy and is not available right now because it requires something quite extraordinary: neutral, trustable, third party. The system is one of Certifications like it is vastly popular in today's professional world that many companies have a system to grant certifications to people through a system of exams and courses. The goal of the system is the same as Gearscore does in WoW: Companies have to hire strangers and they really cannot trust too much their CV, so certifications give them an idea that at least Dude X can do this and this, while Dude Y does not necessarily know how.
So to apply the same concept in WoW (or ANY MMOs actually) would mean to set up a web site where the database would be kept and an in-game organization. The organization must manage to be trustworthy to their server and then they can start to design series of tests or trials to grant certifications to people. These can be for different roles and for different levels... or dungeon specific or what not, but with such things you would stop depending on a mathemtical equation and start depending on the judgement of other people that, ideally, you trust.
So, Dude the Tank can show you that he has a Tank certification, level 3 and you know that he had to lead 5 raids through instance XXXX with 24 people chosen by the certifier guild succesfully achieving this or that.
Skill Over Gear. That is even a catchy name for a guild
So, this I tell to you all that do not like the GearScore phenomenon. Find a better solution and lobby to put it into action. If you do not want to... well I guess then we are just left with the second option: Bitch about it on the forums while hoping someone else does it ;D
Summarizing, what do you need?
1. the technical know how to create a web application (using PHP+jsp or ASP.net or what you like, this should be the easiest step but it will take time) (oh yeah and find a way to make an add-on that can make use of this information.. there are add-ons accessing , say, wowhead database, so it can be done)
2. Somehow gain the trust of your server or gain the support of the raid guilds of your server (ideally the Skill Over Gear guild is composed of members of such raid guilds with their blessings)
3. Design a series of intelligent trials and tests for giving certificates.
4. ??????
5. Profit!
"If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day, if you teach him how to fish, you feed him for a lifetime"
I would assume he is on a WoW-Heroes server. 3200 WH score would be someone in il264 gear.
Personal anecdote:
Yesterday I run a LFD PuG and the tank mentioned that the hunter had a very low GS. He then asked if we wanted to do the extra bosses in the instance so he could get some better gear. We were mostly OK but then we had a bad pull and a wipe so just called it a night and just did the final boss.
My personal observation is that at least on my battlegroup very few people are GS obsessed unlike the dire picture the OP and other try to portray. Yesterday was the first time in months someone mentioned GS to me in a heroic and the only raids I see asking for GS are PuGs for ToGC and ICC. Even then you can easily get into a raid PuG if you know the people running it. Most importantly gearscore is a complete non-issue if you are running raids with a guild group composed of your friends.
This.
Also, it is ridiculously easy to get 5k gearscore from running heroic dungeons. I don't see what the problems is with people that have 3,2-4k GS whining they aren't getting spots in raids. Well of course you aren't. Raid leaders see your lack fo gear as a lack of effort, ad guess what, that effects your raid spot chances adversely.
It takes around only 10-20 hours(depending on luck) of running heroics to get 5k GS. I don't see the problem here.
That is exactly right, and we're not saying NO to save WoW, because it is already a lost cause. We are saying NO to dissuade the next group of greedy suits who decide to emulate Blizzard and Cryptic, etc.
We can prevent some of the future games from spewing this crap, but the sooner we start saying no, the better the results will be.
So - Stand up, pull up your pants, and walk away.
- MMO_Doubter
WTH are you on about, ofc its the addon that is the whole point of gear score, gear score is the Addon whatever website you are talking about came after that was implemented, the addon is what makes it good cause a RL can just check everyones gear score and experience on the spot, not some website that would be ridiculous LOL. Who in their right mind is going to browse a website and input the name of the character before making a PUG for everyone the addon is just very convenient target the person get the GS.
I dont think you fully understand how the GS system works, I advise you to do little more research as the Addon is what people use in game all the time to create PUGs on 90% of the servers.
And to complement what Torik said above it is true it is not as bad only people who are retarded dont get invited to groups, when I came back to play again I had very low gear score but could still complete most of the instances and knew strategies I managed to get into ICC groups and such even without the gear score by talking through with the leader, showing I had half a working brain and a bit of social engineering anyone can do this and get into groups just people get asked achievements and GS and then get a NO and give up and start whining, RL are afraid of getting stupid people in if you talk and show you know the stuff they will most of the time invite you.
A year ago it was achievements that got you into, or not into, raids. Now it's gear score and achievements. Those are some dumb ass systems to base a players potential on. Blizzard may have not wanted gear score to become what it is today but they inavertantly brought it on themselves by introducing achievements in the first place.
I've been playing again after over a year off for about a month and a half now and I'm already done again becasue of abusive systems like gear score and achievements. I mean really, I play an alt to 80, get him scored to just under 5k while grinding 5 mans (I loved the LFG tool, that is a good change btw) which was going to be good enough for the raid leader but because I didn't have the achievements I was told I can't go. What? I don't have many achievements because I rolled an alt!! Past experience and skill doesn't matter these days, if you don't have achievements and gear score, you sir are a nub.
What a serious waste of time Wow has become, and not really because of game mechanics, it's more so the fault of the community that abuses it that has poisoned WoW beyond reapair.
It's not a surprising evolution that gear score has become the seemingly standard measuring tape used for epeens today, but it is definetly disappointing. Here's to hoping that along with changing the landscape that Cataclysm will also undo a lot of what has ruined WoW over tha last 2 expansions that made it what it is today.
Well that's OK, I hear Age of Conan has improved alot and now I'm playing that again and having a blast! White Sands beach is still loaded with gankers but it's still better than being excluded blindly becasue of what is on the outside of my toon.
Screw WoW and the discriminatory childish crowd that runs it these days.
I used to love her, but I had to kill her.
AoC will hold me over till I lose my LOTRO burnout or until SW:ToR arrives.
Sorry.. Im going to have to call BS on that one.. Show me a link to that fight.. LOL Ulduar 10 with NO purple from anyone.. cough.. yeah right..
It was already linked a few pages back.
I havent played the game for a long time since level 60 was the max level. But all the updates ive read and complaints seem to point to the fact that everything brought into the game is to give players as much more to do as possible with as little effort from devlopers such as making high level gear needed for certain raids etc. lots of games do it so to be expected suppose.
i thought age of conan was ment to be new and exciting...