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What do you know, Funcom following Bioware: story, story, story ftw!
MMO.Maverick
Member CommonPosts: 7,619
... or is it?
Funcom's game director, Craig Morrison, has been following the news of Bioware's emphasis on storytelling too, along with the reactions on it. And it made him think, enough to write a little blog about it.
Here are his reflections about it:
'It is definitely true that few MMOs have offered the same type of individual narrative drive that you see in any of Bioware's previous single player titles, or even your favorite best told stories down the years, whether that is Half-Life, Deus-Ex, System Shock, Bioshock, the Fallout series, Monkey Island, The Longest Journey, or any other of the games down the years that have told fantastic stories.
That might be true...
...but to me MMOs are capable of telling stories that are even more compelling than any of those industry milestones mentioned above. What's more, they already do so every day.
Let me tell you a story of my own as a means of making a point...'
He then continues with some of his own ingame experiences, when he raided the dragon Onyxia in WoW:
'Early on in World of Warcraft, my guild had finally gotten everyone together to raid the dragon Onyxia, everyone had done the required quests to get inside her lair and we were good to go. (This is of course in the bygone days of early wow when it was a big deal and yes, they did make us do a long quest chain to get the chance to take her on, anyway, I digress...). As we prepared for the fight and sat around buffing at the entrance one of the members of the guild asked a question in raid chat:
'So who knows why we are here?'
...the answers rather typically went something like this:
'Loot'
'EPICS!'
'Lootz'
'I want my sword!'
'The part for my Hunter epic quest'
'A Paladin drop would be nice but it won't happen'
'Loot'
That resulted in a chat *sigh* from the person who asked the question, 'No guys, why are we here to fight the dragon? What's the reason?'
'Loot'
'Didn't we just say that...'
*sigh*
'I don't think he means loot'
'I meant the quest, you know, the several hours of game-play you just spent earning access to this lair? The story you just played through? Did anyone even notice?'
'...hmmm...a dragonkin thing spawned in Stormwind or something, wasn't really paying attention'
Longer story short, next to no-one on the raid had even paid attention to the story, regardless of how well it was told. So I am telling you MMO players don't always pay attention to quest text, cut-scenes or dialog windows?
...really?
Yes, I can hear the collective 'well D'UH!' from here, thank you very much.
That much anyone who has played an MMO for more than a few minutes already knows. However that wasn't the point I wanted to make, the interesting part is what happened after that conversation. The interesting part is the story we created for ourselves once we started fighting the dragon.'
I'm not going to copy the whole blog here, but for who's interested in hearing more about Morrison's take on stories and why he's convinced that storytelling comes 2nd right after gameplay, grab a drink and look here
It'll be different than you expect (or not, and maybe your innate psychic abilities have already caught his blog reflections to the detail; in that case, hurray for you, now leave your job or study to find work better suited to your talent!)
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Comments
The over-focus on story can be just as much of a mistake as not giving it enough attention. Bioware's games have a habit of being rather closed and linear, in part to facilitate their "story telling". This is contrary to much of the intent of what MMOs are supposed to be. Furthermore, when your "epic storyline" is repeated by hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of players, it loses it's epicness and believability for players.
You cannot properly design content for an MMO story in the same manner as a SPRPG game, otherwise you will end up with botched MMO that is riddled with instancing. Considering their past history with RPGs, and the way they've been touting the story element, I think that this is the main problem Bioware might have with their MMO.
Hmm you sure you read it properly? He says gameplay is MORE important than story.
THE SECRET WORLD - PAY ONCE PLAY FOREVER - Give it a go!
http://www.thesecretworld.com/buy/
OR PM ME FOR A BUDDY KEY (need your email address).
And he continues with another important paragraf:
We are the storytellers!
I still remember much of those encounters because of the great characters, wonderful dialog, the challenges, the disasters, the recoveries and the eventual victories. A fantastic story with a great script...a script that was written by us, as gamers, as we played.
I might not remember the dialog or characters in the quest lines I had to complete to get there, but I sure as hell remember the dialog between my guild mates, and the characters within the guild, and the community at large on my server. That goes for every MMO I have played going all the way back to Meridian 59 and Ultima Online. The players themselves are capable of providing a compelling and engaging narrative all on their own.
The characters and stories that the players bring with them is a key part of the fabric of an MMO, and should never be forgotten when considering why people like these games in the first place. Sure, we have progression, levels, skills, items and loot, and for some that is appealing in and of itself (see Farmville or Mafia Wars for proof of that!), but the thing that sets an MMO apart is how you interact with others around you. Whether that interaction is positive or negative doesn't really matter, it means we are all making a story for ourselves (and others) as we go along.
That story might be small (like a wipe in a pick-up-group) or it might be huge and effect many thousand of gamers (like a scam or major corporate collapse in EVE), it might be a personal story, like the first time you reached a certain area or level, or it might be a shared story like a guild racing for a server first kill, but it is a story. You can't really deny that. You might forget it, dismiss it, or take it for granted, but I'd wager your game experience would be far poorer without it.
For every quest text you might skip, there is a funny character you met while playing, a strange situation you found yourself in, an inglorious failure, or a heroic recovery from certain doom. Even when playing alone in an MMO, you are still surrounded by other players. You still share those stories. Think about it..how many of the MMO stories you chose to share with your friends are purely about what happened while you were soling a quest, and how many involve the antics, heroics or stupidity of a friend or another player?
Again, I'd wager it's far more likely to be the latter on any given occasion...
...it is also what sets an MMO apart from a single player game. Our experiences in MMOs often resonate with us more, or for longer, because they are inherently a shared experience...
...so while it might be quite right to say that MMOs have yet to develop mechanics capable of delivering the same narrative drive for the individual as a good single player game, it is doing the genre a disservice to forget about the elements unique to the MMO environment that allow for all the great stories we, as players, create for ourselves.
....
Stop forcing single player mechanic into MMO gameplay.
Why old school MMOs didnt have quests ? Because you and players around you create the quests. You are telling your own story together with interactive world and real people , not NPCs
Eh?! Eh.... are you sure you read my post right?
To quote myself:
"but for who's interested in hearing more about Morrison's take on stories and why he's convinced that storytelling comes 2nd right after gameplay" etc
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I like the story in Dragon Age Origins.
.
But story heavy games are like books, I usually don't read books twice.
.
I'm not sure story lines will work in a MMO where you might have to repeat the quests serveral times as you level alts.
.
DAO was a solo game. I have no interest in replaying it now that I've finished.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
Sure I read it.
However YOUR thread title says "story, story, story" emphasising the story part and not mentioning the gameplay part which as you have said Morrison quoted is more important than story. Where in fact it was "Gameplay, story" and not as your thread title implies - your facts are presently incorrectly.
THE SECRET WORLD - PAY ONCE PLAY FOREVER - Give it a go!
http://www.thesecretworld.com/buy/
OR PM ME FOR A BUDDY KEY (need your email address).
I have to agree with him, it is the players who should make the stories in an MMORPG, and in my own Onyxia experience the most memorable story for me was the night that I wiped the entire raid when I feel asleep while waiting to start and woke up standing at the foot of Onyxia with the raid leader screaming over vent asking what the hell was I doing? (good times)
So to me this 'experiement' of Bioware's to bring more story into our MMORPG is a bit of a risk, sure it works great in single player games, but most players today are there just to advance their character and not be entertained by the story.
Strangely enough, I like a good story, so who knows, maybe I'll like SWTOR, probably have to try it and find out.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The story thing in an MMO isn't new. LOTRO tries to be very story focused. So, shouldn't it say "Funcom following Bioware, who are expanding on an idea that Turbine introduced"?
Pfff...
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
What Morrison was saying, and it really is easy to comprehend it is in the very act of playing these games that we the players create our own stories. Which is something many of us have known since day one - when we started playing these types of games. Sure it is cool to have pre-written stories to follow from time to time, but in the end the stories that stay with us are the one we create ourselves. If a game just gives us a world, and the tools to do all kinds of different things - ::a sandbox:: yes the scary sandbox....we will create wonderful stories all by ourselves. The stories that developers put into the game is just icying...
Yeah, but the whole discussion and indignant outrage at the moment is about Bioware going the storytelling way with TOR.
Nobody has any qualms with the story focus of LOTRO. Or if they have, then they're not playing LotrO.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think he's misusing the word "story". Towards the end he calls what he's talking about "shared experiences". THIS is what he's talking about. When Bioware talks about story I get the sense they really are talking about story, in other words, there's a beginning, middle, and end, and apparently different middles and different ends depending on choices the player makes. But it will be a story, in the sense that you will be learning what happens next. Everyone is curious about how this is going to work when you group up with others, and that's something Bioware has to solve. This is because grouping up with others is a shared experience, not a story.
Unless they show me they are making a good MMO in addition to the story - I won't be. I can play stories in solo RPGs, and I can get better stories in things called books.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
If I wanted that much focus on story I would simply go and read a book. Sure, things need a purpose of why we do things but story isn't the reason why the majority plays games.
1. Turbine never boasted LOTRO story focus (which is there and its great) as revolutionary change in MMOs as we know it.
2. There were lot of arguments about LOTRO story focus as opposed to MEO(middle earth online) that was supposed to be true sandbox game.
Yep, I agree, and the best MMO worlds - to me - are the ones who can support and stimulate that storytelling by ourselves.
As Craig Morrison says at the end : "in many ways the true power of making an MMO title isn't that we get the opportunity to tell you a wonderful story, in interesting and memorable settings, but more that we give you, the player, the opportunity to share these wonderful stories that we have put effort into creating, and that you, our audience, even get to advance them in ways we never thought possible..."
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The huge mistake BioWare is making (from a gamer's perspective, not a commercial one) is that they are making the game about individual story - not group or world story.
World story brings players together. Individual story divides players - especially the way they are doing it. You can't even start on the same planet with friends unless you are all playing the same class.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
Not multiplayer games, for sure.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2
I agree, I think ANet is hitting closer to the mark with their innovations than Bioware with this.
It'll be interesting to see if and how Bioware have solved the issues everyone can see with storytelling as a focus in a MMO. But I already like the solutions ANet have come up for this in GW2.
... as far as I can tell atm, I'll only know more certain when the beta arrives.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Making an MMO fully based on pre-written stories is nothing new, LotRO does that and it does it well.
Yes there are a lot of people who want theme park style MMOs, well guess what, the majority of MMOs are already theme parked MMOs. So saying that's what you're making/changing in your game doesn't bring in a huge amount of new players.
Bioware's biggest issue is they have that same mindset every first time MMO developer has, that they are going to do things drastically different and make the most amazing MMO ever. Literally every new MMO developer talks like that and acts like they are the coolest thing since Ben & Jerrys. Bioware will get its humble pie thrown right into its face, they still have a LOT to learn about MMO development vs single player development. Luckily for them they have Star Wars as an IP to help make up for their loss in understanding, but the game will still struggle to make a huge profit because of its high production cost.
Having story lines present in modern mmorpgs simply adds to the experience not takes away from it. Unless you're completely incapable of any imagination or creativity on your own why would having storylines included in your game be anything but a welcomed addition rather than this nonsense that it somehow takes away from an mmorpg?
Does having storylines somehow destroy your own level of creativity and imagination? I will never understand this notion that because some mmos try to have more depth to their creation and story this somehow limits an individual's capability to create their own stories and ideas within the confines of the mmo.
Really makes no sense at all. I'm so tired of this less is more argument being made.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Imo let bioware try this route. We would never know for sure if this kind of mmo will succed if we don't see it in action. We're just making assumptions. So yeah I give credits to bioware for trying something new. If they fail bad for them, if they succed however that's better for us too. Not many companies have the balls to go against the norm.
The gene pool available to play MMOs in hose days was a little more suited to enjoyment , community and gameplay the concept of end game did not used to exist. The games were designed to give a fair ammount of longevity, the lower numbers of players per server also helped.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I think you might not realize how they are presenting the story.
Imagine if you were playing WoW and rolled a Hunter. You would start in the Hunter starting area. Most - if not all - quests would be Hunter quests. If your friends at the same time - they could not start in the same area with you - unless they all rolled Hunters as well. Even if you could travel to your friend's starting area (in SWTOR, a different planet), once you got there the quest would be for his class, not yours.
"" Voice acting isn't an RPG element....it's just a production value." - grumpymel2