And no to those who say: "Story is everything!" I don't really care if I'm killing some green thing because I'm saving the missis, the world or because it's got a puss cell I need for some bloke making poison - if you want plot, read a book. If you want a game, well, make something that's a little more involving than hit auto attack and watch the telly for 10 mins - if you use specials you just get to kill it quicker.
But isn't it obvious that video games (and MMOs) are moving in the direction of either story or PvP? Look at the evolution, from earliest to present day. Pong, Frogger, Pacman, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Super Mario Bros, Ultima, Daggerfall, Doom, Everquest, Asheron's Call, Jedi Knight, Half Life, The Sims, Starcraft, Morrowind, Civilizations 2, Gothic, Fable, WoW, Eve Online, KotOR, Half Life 2, Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights, Sims 2, Call of Duty, KotOR 2, Everquest 2, etc. And finally ending with the present games like Just Cause 2, Mass Effect 2, Starcraft 2, God of War 3, Sims 3, Left 4 Dead 2, Modern Warfare, Dragon Age.
As gaming technology improves it will naturally move towards telling a better story. Even getting more realistic controls for combat is actually part of making the story more believable. Here are some stats:
Highest selling pc game: The Sims, The Sims 2 (players create stories for simulated characters)
2nd Highest selling pc game: Starcraft (strategy PvP)
3rd Highest selilng pc game: WoW (arguably the MMO with the best story and atmosphere from level 1 to level 80, with a little PvP on the side)
I think it's the current bit of PvP that has killed everything for the old timers. I like to play against other players, but not in games that promote ganking or not working together. DAoC was the perfect element of PvP that kept my interest. And it built a community along with the social aspect.
I tried AoC too. Even got the expansion. But I got bored as well. When I played I played on the RPPvP server. It seems that the current PvP games have brought in a selfish nasty group of players. Not the type I would want to socialize with, much less play a game alongside.
I'm going to stick to the PvE games from now on. About the closest I'll get to PvP is either going back to Camelot or resubbing on WAR.
I never have understood what the kick is in being just plain gross in chat channels.
I used to like PvP when it was just a feature among features in a game. It may be nostalgia or rose tinted glasses, but it seems like the gankers were more of a minority in "the good ol' days". Sure, they were there, but I seem to remember there being a sort of unwritten code that there should be a reason to kill the other guy besides for the lulz. Deathmatch-style PvP where the goal is simply killing another toon reduces PvP to the most base level. Sure, there's magic, different types of armor and weapons, and different classes, but it seems nowadays that PvP is nothing more than a glorified Quake 3: Arena with the ultimate goal being a frag count. What's worse is that sort of gameplay attracts the worst kind of players like spilled sugar attracts ants.
I know there are still PvPers out there who play with a bit more respect to the setting and context of the game, but just as the mindless, senseless gankers were a minority in the way-back-when, decent and honorable PvPers are the minority now.
Exactly.
Soooo often when I was playing the new Conan expansion I would be fighting something, have my health down to about 1/4 after the fight, then have some stealther pop out and gank me. AND, they were way more often than not 5 or more levels ahead of me.
Then, they would do some predictable /tell to try make what they did seem rough and tough. I finally just got tired of it. It wasn't that the taunts bothered me, if anything they made me laugh histerically at the pictures in my mind of who was typing them. It was the pointlessness of it. I wasn't going to level up so I could return the "favor" to someone levels below me. So, I guess it wasn't my kind of game if that is what it's turned into.
Any new mmo which wants me to kill rats or do pointless quests to 'level up' goes straight into my reject pile nowadays. Sure when the genre first started back with AC/EQ1 (ok it started earlier but it started for me with EQ1 and AC) it was fine to go kill rats and bats and other crap - it was new and different. But the same things over 12 years later is just inexcusable, and will not hold my attention for longer than 5 minutes, most often 0 minutes because after reading up what the game is like I don't even bother installing it.
What we need is a new and interesting format to make it exciting again. It is only partly us maturing as gamers which makes these games boring nowadays, it is mostly a failure on the part of game developers to grow and mature along with us.
One of the best parts of MMO's for me personally has been designing and playing a wide variety of different builds / specs / combinations, and I have been able to forgive a lot of flaws if a game delivered those options to me regarding character creation and development. But even that has since grown stale, and is no longer able to keep me playing something simply for the thrill of seeing how a particular build will work when the rest of the game is a steaming pile of sh*t.
I want character diversity. And i mean diversity in being able to create a potential combination of hundreds of builds, with racial / spec/ gear/ enhancements etc etc etc all being variable with a TON to choose from. And i want this put into a gaming platform that is smooth, bug free and performs flawlessly online. And I want the graphics to be at least representative of modern video card standards, but also taking into account necessary bandwidth restrictions. And i want all of this to be presented in a new and exciting actual game concept - no more bats and rats and cats and dogs - call the bloody animal police, i'm there to adventure, not kill rodents. And until a game like this eventually comes out and takes the genre by storm, then I, like the OP, will be a Veteran mmo gamer not currently playing an MMO.
WARHAMMER and Age of Conan to me were the biggest examples of why MMO gaming has become so stale. The SAME development process over and over again. Try almost NOTHING new. Use the same boring classes, the same boring levels, the same kill "x" amount of wildlife quests, the same linear progression, the same 10-key turn-based combat, and take 3 - 5 years to make the same boring game with a different skin on it.
I started online gaming in Ultima Online. It's hard to find a game now that pretty much doesn't suck.
I'm going with Mortal Online just because it is trying to be different. Even if the development is questionable, the game is already more unique than 99% of the ones that are currently live.
WARHAMMER and Age of Conan to me were the biggest examples of why MMO gaming has become so stale. The SAME development process over and over again. Try almost NOTHING new. Use the same boring classes, the same boring levels, the same kill "x" amount of wildlife quests, the same linear progression, the same 10-key turn-based combat, and take 3 - 5 years to make the same boring game with a different skin on it.
I'm going to have to disagree with that. Both AoC and WAR did offer something different, in fact their original designs were pretty good in regards to adding something fresh to the mmorpg world. So what happened? They failed, but lets not say they didnt try. In fact, AoC classes were very unique, and before they cut half the intended classes, it was even better.They had a lot of original designs but never really were able to made good on them, the result was a mess. WAR offered a great world pvp set up in regards to RvR, what killed the game for them though was bad design in just about everything else. The public quest system is fantastic! I loved it... only when you could find people playing it. The reward system failed.
So they did offer the new, they just failed to deliver it in a solid product.
I took a last leap * bought Age of Conan* which is as good as any other MMO on the market* and am bored after 3 days. Log in, kill computer generated AI rinse, repeat, and do the same thing over and over and over to what achieve max level, reroll and repeat the mind numbing format of modern day MMORPGS.
Step 1. Read the enjoyable adult NPC talk. Go back and forth with NPC. Then take quest.
Step 2. Kill mobs
Step 3. Read the enjoyable adult NPC talk after quest. Go back and forth with NPC prior to completing quest.
Step 4. Level
Fixed.
You do understand if you just hack and slash it, it's not fun.
Step 4. Realize we've all been mindlessly doing it for HOW many years for me its over 12 years but no longer.
.
You play for the wrong reasons. MMOs never where that challenging.
.
You play to hang out with guildies and friends.
As long as there is good socialization in game, there will be people willing to play. Alot of us are just looking for a good community to call home. I personally enjoy the roleplaying aspects of MMORPG, and looking for the game that is willing to cater to those players as well. FYI, I do not like Simple Life so don't even suggest it. I mean a REAL mmorpg that caters to BOTH needs. PVP and raiding is fun but only for how long?
[size=8]PLAYED: TSO, SWG, WOW, EQ2, Vanguard, FFXII, AOC, AION, Guild Wars, Second Life
If everyone just stopped speaking for any assortment of "us".
Indeed. There is no "us", because MMO players, like MMOs themselves, are a diverse set.
MMO "vets" often come with an amusing sense of entitlement. Seriously, if you don't like a particular game, or set of games, anymore, it's probably just time to move on and do something else. The MMO universe does not owe anyone anything.
I don't see why more of the old school players don't play runescape. Sure it's old, but somehow it managed to attract a million users and the population is still climbing. . It has a lot of the old game feel if you can get past the poorer graphics.
People keep talking about adapting to the way stuff changes and whatnot, and I guess that's somewhat an issue, but the fact is that we're not adapting to improvements, we are more or less having to put up with games becoming worse. Much like pop music has gone downhill from the start, so too has the mmo genre.
No, *YOU* don't think they are improvements, that doesn't mean that they are not. The game industry, just like every industry, doesn't cater to the individual, but to trends across their entire customer base. Just because a relatively small number of people don't like where the trend is going doesn't mean that there isn't a trend. The MMO marketplace has grown tremendously since the UO days, it went from a niche market to a multi-billion dollar industry.
Unfortunately, you seem to be incapable of seeing past your own personal biases and into the larger industry and marketplace as a whole. You don't like something, therefore you declare it bad. That's not a rational position to be arguing from.
Why would I care about the marketplace? Do you think the marketplace decides what's good? Stuff that sells by the bucketload is rarely good, it's widely apealing, like Lady Gaga or clown posters.
As you pointed out, yes, the industry does cater to trends, but does that mean improvement? No, it really doesn't. It's the exact oposite. People these days want instant gratification, so that's the kind of stuff we're getting. Stuff that takes absolutely no effort to learn.
If adapting to change means i have to listen to play the Lady Gaga of mmo's... I guess that's it for me..
That's it, all you care about is *YOU*. That's an extremely self-centered position to start from, especially if you leap from there to claiming that everything is inherently bad because it doesn't cater to what you want. If you don't like Lady Gaga, don't listen. Nobody is forcing you. If you don't like MMOs, don't play, nobody is holding a gun to your head. Find something better. Stop acting like you're entitled to anything.
The thing is, I, as well as the thread starter, do like MMO's. Not to be a douche or anything, but people who don't notice how mmo's have gone downhill the past 10++ years may not be the twinkliest star in the sky. I'm hardly alone in thinking they are dumbed down, so when you say *YOU*, I guess you mean the majority of old geezers who used to play mmo's but quit? The only reason this thread isn't jam packed with people who agree with the thread starter is that that part of the mmo community no longer plays mmo's due to the fact that they just got bad. WoW EU servers these days for example, I played on a RP server, because the average age of the people on RP servers tend to be higher, that server was pretty much dead around february this year. Granted, there's not much to do in WoW these days, but still..
Said it before and I'll say it again.. Create geezer servers in mmo's with a minimum age of 22 or something like that. A lot of kids are extremely impatient ( GOOOGO GOGOGO!!!!! ) and they throw hissy fits constantly. That stuff ruins the game for me completely. The past few years I've been playing solo in pretty much all MMO's because I just can't be around all the negativity of the 16 year old elitists who geargrind and crunch numbers like pimply little loot crazed meth addicts.
It won't matter, the average age in MMOs is already 28 and it hasn't stopped the "bad communities" yet, nor will it. The problem isn't the people, it's that you have a vast variety of different people with different goals, different worldviews and different lifestyles playing the games. The only reason older games had "good communities" is because they were relatively homogenous. Almost everyone playing them was a nerd, those were the only people who had the equipment, the time and the focus to play those games, so almost everyone you ran into had the same basic views you did.
Times change. Deal.
I can't be 100% sure, cause there are no numbers available that state any sort of credible survey or anything like that, but the average age being 28 hasn't been true for ages, I think it may have been close to true just as mmo's started taking off, because back then a large part of the playerbase were MUD players, but these days that number is just bullcrap. If the average age is above 20 I'd be baffled.
The numbers aren't really all that important either when you take into account that what matters is the server population at any given time. 15 year olds are more likely to spend more time playing games than, say, a 32 year old guy with a job and kids and a wife that doesn't dig him spending all his spare time oogling belfs.
In closing, I'd like to say that I'm not really trying to say that MMO's these days are unlikeable. Many seem to like it, but it's hard to refute the fact that, as you said, the marketplace decides, and right now the games are generally made to please a wider audience. And that means dumbed down. If it's still above your "okay, this is just retarded" threshold, then hey, that's great. I, and quite a few other people, probably just demand more. Sadly we're no longer the demographic.
A good example for the fact that dumbing stuff down helps is looking at the exact opposite side of the gaming spectrum. Flight sims and racing sims have never been more advanced, and those genres, especially Flight Sims, are shrinking into the tiniest niche market. That doesn't make much sense for subscription based games.. So ..
Anyways, Guild Wars 2 will render this whole discussion moot. If it does what it sets out to do, which is to do everything mmo's refuse to do. Evolve the genre.
The thing I like about all of us old MMORPG vets, is that no matter how much we've given up with the system - we always have hope for the next best MMO.
And by the next week, we're already hitting up MMORPG.com page looking for what else is coming - because we were disappointed.
I remember playing original EQI, I had one heck of a time playing that game and even more so with DAOC. I've never had that exciting, challenging feeling since then.
Oh well, I'm sure the WH40K MMO will solve my problems....(And thus the cycle continues).
No, it's not over for most MMO vets, it's only over for those MMO vets who refuse to move on. Most of us who started playing long, long ago no longer want the same thing out of games that we wanted back then, most of us have grown up, most of us no longer have the time or interest in sitting around in a time-wasting game, pretending it's somehow challenging.
We grew up and a lot of vets are actually enjoying MMOs today.
Agreed. At one point in time the MMO was revolutionary. Now they are just one cookie cutter after another offering the same ole same ole.
Although I am dissappointed myself as of late, I am not going to give up. I'm gonna keep looking for that something revolutionary again.
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
Why would I care about the marketplace? Do you think the marketplace decides what's good? Stuff that sells by the bucketload is rarely good, it's widely apealing, like Lady Gaga or clown posters.
As you pointed out, yes, the industry does cater to trends, but does that mean improvement? No, it really doesn't. It's the exact oposite. People these days want instant gratification, so that's the kind of stuff we're getting. Stuff that takes absolutely no effort to learn.
Who cares what's good? The only thing that matters is what's financially viable. How can you have lived on this planet for any length of time and not have figured that out? Most people want instant gratification, that's what makes money, therefore that's what companies make. If you can find a significant financial sector that doesn't want that, then you'll get companies making that too.
Unfortunately for you, you can't.
The thing is, I, as well as the thread starter, do like MMO's. Not to be a douche or anything, but people who don't notice how mmo's have gone downhill the past 10++ years may not be the twinkliest star in the sky. I'm hardly alone in thinking they are dumbed down, so when you say *YOU*, I guess you mean the majority of old geezers who used to play mmo's but quit? The only reason this thread isn't jam packed with people who agree with the thread starter is that that part of the mmo community no longer plays mmo's due to the fact that they just got bad. WoW EU servers these days for example, I played on a RP server, because the average age of the people on RP servers tend to be higher, that server was pretty much dead around february this year. Granted, there's not much to do in WoW these days, but still..
No, you like a specific type of MMOs and you are demanding that *ALL* MMOs must be like the ones you like or you're defining them out of existence. They cannot be MMOs if they're not just like the ones you like, but that's as absurd as saying it can't be ice cream unless it's vanilla. I never said you were alone in thinking MMOs have been dumbed down, but there are MILLIONS of people who are playing these MMOs happily and paying their fees month after month after month, so apparently you are in the tiny minority feeling that way.
I can't be 100% sure, cause there are no numbers available that state any sort of credible survey or anything like that, but the average age being 28 hasn't been true for ages, I think it may have been close to true just as mmo's started taking off, because back then a large part of the playerbase were MUD players, but these days that number is just bullcrap. If the average age is above 20 I'd be baffled.
According to the most recent studies that have been posted around here, it is still 28. If you don't believe that, come up with better numbers. Just pulling a claim out of your ass because you don't like it is asinine.
The numbers aren't really all that important either when you take into account that what matters is the server population at any given time. 15 year olds are more likely to spend more time playing games than, say, a 32 year old guy with a job and kids and a wife that doesn't dig him spending all his spare time oogling belfs.
You mean the 15 year olds who are spending most of their day in school? Those 15 year olds? You just like making things up to support your idiotic claims because you have nothing better.
In closing, I'd like to say that I'm not really trying to say that MMO's these days are unlikeable. Many seem to like it, but it's hard to refute the fact that, as you said, the marketplace decides, and right now the games are generally made to please a wider audience. And that means dumbed down. If it's still above your "okay, this is just retarded" threshold, then hey, that's great. I, and quite a few other people, probably just demand more. Sadly we're no longer the demographic.
Yes, the games are made to appeal to the wider audience. There was a time when that wider audience was made up of nerds and games were made to appeal to them. Then a much, much larger group came on the scene and games now appealed to that wider audience. Games will *ALWAYS* appeal to the largest available audience. Deal with it.
A good example for the fact that dumbing stuff down helps is looking at the exact opposite side of the gaming spectrum. Flight sims and racing sims have never been more advanced, and those genres, especially Flight Sims, are shrinking into the tiniest niche market. That doesn't make much sense for subscription based games.. So ..
Flight sims have never had a wider audience than their particular niche, which is why they cater to that niche. There aren't millions and millions of people out there who are interested in playing flight sims or hardcore racing games. There are millions who want to play MMOs.
Anyways, Guild Wars 2 will render this whole discussion moot. If it does what it sets out to do, which is to do everything mmo's refuse to do. Evolve the genre.
I doubt it, the hardcore folks don't like GW and I don't see GW2 appealing to them any more. I actually like GW, but it's hardly a hardcore game. GW2 doesn't seem to be anything any more hardcore, but I could be wrong. We'll see in 2011.
but i have to say though, the community in today's MMOs will never be the same as the MMOs back in the early 2000s, but the community have since been so different, i cant think how it will be in 50 years time *shudders*
i remember back in the days
where Ragnarok and FFXI was a hit ( 2005ish ) which is only 5 years ago, the community that time was a joy to behold
it's a game where i happened to made lots friends that is to stay until today and even become real friends
then i move on to WoW in 2006, WoW was still a good game that time until right before WOTLK
made friends on WoW but were never as impacting as i were in Ragnarok and FFXI, the community was unable to make it happen
and i can bet most people here will agree that it is almost impossible anymore to find a band of friends like what most of us used to back in the early 2000s MMO community
now, new MMOs, most of them are still same as ever, but there is also many that are already better than the classic MMO
some game gets better in features, mechanics and more and more genre is popping up
but i think Community is what is missing, where games might get better, but the community gets worse each day
this is what i think made lots of vets stop trying
because in all honesty, i think Community is what makes a MMO great
if you compare Ragnarok with the new MMO that there is now on the market, in terms of mechanics and feature, the new ones definitely win
but for me, what makes Ragnarok once a great MMO is that community that is lost now
Excellent points and no mate, I didn't really think about it like that - the Sim players are taking over MMOs... good point.
Well, I've been hammering Bad Company 2 now for a while - looked the other day and I've got 100+ hours on it (Gulp!) so I'm still a happy bunny!
They do say history repeats itself so I guess it's a case of waiting for the Sim boys and and girls to get bored of MMOs and businesses will turn back to us blood and guts folk.
I was loving AOC but then they ganked the Guardian (Tank) and gave MT to the Dark Templar (Death Knight wanna be?) Nothing like a non dps, non tank char in a raid! So gave up on that.
They do say history repeats itself so I guess it's a case of waiting for the Sim boys and and girls to get bored of MMOs and businesses will turn back to us blood and guts folk.
Really really doubt it. The way I see it, every game will get closer and closer to the mmo. Interactive online games will become soon the main genre. Look at red dead redemption. Was one step away from becoming a mmo. I'll be not surprised if the next rockstar's game is a mmo.
They do say history repeats itself so I guess it's a case of waiting for the Sim boys and and girls to get bored of MMOs and businesses will turn back to us blood and guts folk.
Really really doubt it. The way I see it, every game will get closer and closer to the mmo. Interactive online games will become soon the main genre. Look at red dead redemption. Was one step away from becoming a mmo. I'll be not surprised if the next rockstar's game is a mmo.
I'm enjoying Red Dead Redemption, but Rockstar still has a long way to go in making their open worlds feel open compared to Bethesda. Even being an open world, RDR still feels limited and linear for the most part. Now, give me an mmo with the world made by Bethesda and the story made by Rockstar, and I'd jump on it in a second.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.- -And on the 8th day, man created God.-
Anyways, Guild Wars 2 will render this whole discussion moot. If it does what it sets out to do, which is to do everything mmo's refuse to do. Evolve the genre.
quite certain you will get disappointed if you expect a revolution with GW2, think it will be a good game for ppl who corrently like MMOs, personally trying to think of it as a WoW gone in abit better game direction....I might be wrong but then atleast it would be a pleasant suprise :P
ow and yea hate how groups now is GOGOGO L2P blah blah peeps, when started in EQ2 very very few acted like this, and miss how ppl who miss behaved just as well could reroll, which took more than afew hours at start - not that it were anything like EQ1.
hope they would make it bit more of an efford to get a good char again, make you care just alittle for your char, mainly for this purpose. but then doubt ppl would stick together again like this....besides properbly is too many to keep track of ;P
over all wish there would come out a MMO focus on social/tactical aspects again, and not just combat.....MMOs is in general bad action games, guess APB may be a good action (might be a) MMO, havent read anything Id personally think of as any better than GTA or so.
ow and is the reason above that Id be intrested in GW2, a free MMO that actually seems decent and without a cashshop.....cant be worse than the current endless repeated instance grinder of EQ2 :P who ever thought this would be a good thing for MMOs should be fired, who in the world want to do the same exact thing day in day out, almost find it worse than kill 10 rats quests and quest markers.
hm got to apply for GW2 beta, they already trying to get quest markers in FFXIV, got to fight it :P how ppl can be so affraid of "wasting time" in a game is beyond me....games is the biggest waste of time to begin with...why make the waste boring, would rather see a quest less game than how quests is made at this point. hope FF sticks to its current design.
After reading the responses on the first page, i can see i like how some of the people think on this thread. I've been saying to alot of fantasy mmo players (mainly being WoW players)...I mean you pay sub just to do exactly what you can do in free games, and its not like there's a challenge. For the most part its just grinding.
Instead of repeating what OP said though, let me mention a couple of games that don't really follow the boring old grind. I mean try EVE for example, its not so heavily based on skills as you can skill while you're at work. You essentially just come on for mining ops, pvp ops, pos takedowns etc. So long as you can over come the learning curve that is, its a great game to play in the sense its not so heavily based on grinding.
Another game is Entropia Universe. This is by far the most unqie mmo i've played since its all based on a real cash economy. You train skills in the normal mmo fasion, but you do have the option of buying skills from the market and implanting it into you. Also since its based on a real cash economy its quite fun killing mobs as the items they loot are in turn worth real money which you can transfer to your bank. Although some feel uncomfortable in a real cash economy environment in a game, but if you can overcome that its a great game. I mean theres nothing really to feel uncomfortable about - its just like Clothes in RL: It is needed, so there is a demand to buy it, therefore it has monetary value. Same as Armour inside the game: It is needed, so there is demand to buy it, therefore it has value - and at the end of the day you can sell it again if you're not using it.
Anyway those to were just random examples. MMO's aren't all the same... there are just so many (hundreds) of games that are WoW clones trying to leach money off the WOW audience. If all else fails though, take a break off mmo's and do normal online gaming. Not sure what games you're into (FPS, RTS etc) but they all have games that are online these days which is a whole lotta fun.
Honestly, I can't tell if its the games' mechanics or just the newer generation of players, but the focus has definitely shifted more toward individual gains rather than group comaradarie. There are still plenty of groups doing stuff together, but the focus has shifted (to me it seems) more heavily on the gear upgrades, achievements, unlocks, etc. It used to be more about the adventure and exploration. Nobody cared what your stats were, for the most part. There are some games that do not focus on it as much, but I've seen several companies adopt some sort of gear grind (especially for PvP) that did not launch with one.
I don't blame the players, they do what they like. I don't blame the developers, because they are just doing their job. Part of me thinks maybe I'm just too old or that my perception of the games, and other players in general, has changed. But I do feel confident that things can change for the better and that players can become less separated and more compassionate toward one another. I can't think of any specific solutions for this, so for now I will just have to try to lead by example.
What a lovely, bright, well thought out post.
You've pretty well detailed my own thinking on this matter. I definitely notice it...I'm not sure exactly what's caused it...and the only "solution" I can see is to, as you said, lead by example. What does that mean? Well for me it means....
I don't steal harvesting nodes. If someone is standing near one, I ask if they need it.
I help the sincerely seeking new players. In other words, if they seem to genuinely be needing help, and I don't see them being a douche in chat channels....I help them. If I see someone being rude TO them....I apologize in a tell (whisper), and let them know that not everyone in the game is a jackass. I sometimes go completely out of my way to help. I take time to answer their questions. I make them larger bags. I do whatever I can to make the environment feel FRIENDLY, at least from one person.
I OFFER myself to mentor low level groups and help with quests when I am able.
I just simply try to be a DECENT HUMAN BEING to the other players in the community, and I try to ignore the segment of the population that seems INTENT on being hateful, rude, and anti-social in their behavior. Which....is actually the hardest part of all of that. Because when I see someone being just a total dick....I really WANT to respond (like I do here on the forums) and read them the riot act. But I have learned that /ignore is my friend, and it has rendered game worlds a much nicer place. I can't totally turn off chat, because then I miss the sincere questions and requests for help....but if I see someone who seems to repeatedly just be a prick.....my ignore list gets fed.
Outside of these things.....I am at a loss as to what can be done to help possibly return communities to a real SENSE of community. And I'm only one person. But I know a lot of other people, at least in EQ2.....do the exact same things I do. Hell I'm in a guild FULL of people like me that make it a POINT to be decent. It's really NOT that difficult. Maybe if enough of us "old timers" do that....it will at least improve communities in a small way....even if it's just VERY small.
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But isn't it obvious that video games (and MMOs) are moving in the direction of either story or PvP? Look at the evolution, from earliest to present day. Pong, Frogger, Pacman, Donkey Kong, Zelda, Super Mario Bros, Ultima, Daggerfall, Doom, Everquest, Asheron's Call, Jedi Knight, Half Life, The Sims, Starcraft, Morrowind, Civilizations 2, Gothic, Fable, WoW, Eve Online, KotOR, Half Life 2, Oblivion, Neverwinter Nights, Sims 2, Call of Duty, KotOR 2, Everquest 2, etc. And finally ending with the present games like Just Cause 2, Mass Effect 2, Starcraft 2, God of War 3, Sims 3, Left 4 Dead 2, Modern Warfare, Dragon Age.
As gaming technology improves it will naturally move towards telling a better story. Even getting more realistic controls for combat is actually part of making the story more believable. Here are some stats:
Highest selling pc game: The Sims, The Sims 2 (players create stories for simulated characters)
2nd Highest selling pc game: Starcraft (strategy PvP)
3rd Highest selilng pc game: WoW (arguably the MMO with the best story and atmosphere from level 1 to level 80, with a little PvP on the side)
Exactly.
Soooo often when I was playing the new Conan expansion I would be fighting something, have my health down to about 1/4 after the fight, then have some stealther pop out and gank me. AND, they were way more often than not 5 or more levels ahead of me.
Then, they would do some predictable /tell to try make what they did seem rough and tough. I finally just got tired of it. It wasn't that the taunts bothered me, if anything they made me laugh histerically at the pictures in my mind of who was typing them. It was the pointlessness of it. I wasn't going to level up so I could return the "favor" to someone levels below me. So, I guess it wasn't my kind of game if that is what it's turned into.
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Yep , I did and it was really worth it, and you can't go back after that.
IMO the only saving graces may be Star Wars or FF, but even then its futile gameplay at the most.
If everyone just stopped speaking for any assortment of "us".
agreed
Any new mmo which wants me to kill rats or do pointless quests to 'level up' goes straight into my reject pile nowadays. Sure when the genre first started back with AC/EQ1 (ok it started earlier but it started for me with EQ1 and AC) it was fine to go kill rats and bats and other crap - it was new and different. But the same things over 12 years later is just inexcusable, and will not hold my attention for longer than 5 minutes, most often 0 minutes because after reading up what the game is like I don't even bother installing it.
What we need is a new and interesting format to make it exciting again. It is only partly us maturing as gamers which makes these games boring nowadays, it is mostly a failure on the part of game developers to grow and mature along with us.
One of the best parts of MMO's for me personally has been designing and playing a wide variety of different builds / specs / combinations, and I have been able to forgive a lot of flaws if a game delivered those options to me regarding character creation and development. But even that has since grown stale, and is no longer able to keep me playing something simply for the thrill of seeing how a particular build will work when the rest of the game is a steaming pile of sh*t.
I want character diversity. And i mean diversity in being able to create a potential combination of hundreds of builds, with racial / spec/ gear/ enhancements etc etc etc all being variable with a TON to choose from. And i want this put into a gaming platform that is smooth, bug free and performs flawlessly online. And I want the graphics to be at least representative of modern video card standards, but also taking into account necessary bandwidth restrictions. And i want all of this to be presented in a new and exciting actual game concept - no more bats and rats and cats and dogs - call the bloody animal police, i'm there to adventure, not kill rodents. And until a game like this eventually comes out and takes the genre by storm, then I, like the OP, will be a Veteran mmo gamer not currently playing an MMO.
Peace out.
WARHAMMER and Age of Conan to me were the biggest examples of why MMO gaming has become so stale. The SAME development process over and over again. Try almost NOTHING new. Use the same boring classes, the same boring levels, the same kill "x" amount of wildlife quests, the same linear progression, the same 10-key turn-based combat, and take 3 - 5 years to make the same boring game with a different skin on it.
I started online gaming in Ultima Online. It's hard to find a game now that pretty much doesn't suck.
I'm going with Mortal Online just because it is trying to be different. Even if the development is questionable, the game is already more unique than 99% of the ones that are currently live.
Tecmo Bowl.
There's your problem. Even Pacman had bugs. XD
I'm going to have to disagree with that. Both AoC and WAR did offer something different, in fact their original designs were pretty good in regards to adding something fresh to the mmorpg world. So what happened? They failed, but lets not say they didnt try. In fact, AoC classes were very unique, and before they cut half the intended classes, it was even better.They had a lot of original designs but never really were able to made good on them, the result was a mess. WAR offered a great world pvp set up in regards to RvR, what killed the game for them though was bad design in just about everything else. The public quest system is fantastic! I loved it... only when you could find people playing it. The reward system failed.
So they did offer the new, they just failed to deliver it in a solid product.
Fixed.
You do understand if you just hack and slash it, it's not fun.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
As long as there is good socialization in game, there will be people willing to play. Alot of us are just looking for a good community to call home. I personally enjoy the roleplaying aspects of MMORPG, and looking for the game that is willing to cater to those players as well. FYI, I do not like Simple Life so don't even suggest it. I mean a REAL mmorpg that caters to BOTH needs. PVP and raiding is fun but only for how long?
[size=8]PLAYED: TSO, SWG, WOW, EQ2, Vanguard, FFXII, AOC, AION, Guild Wars, Second Life
Waiting: SWTOR, FFXIV
Indeed. There is no "us", because MMO players, like MMOs themselves, are a diverse set.
MMO "vets" often come with an amusing sense of entitlement. Seriously, if you don't like a particular game, or set of games, anymore, it's probably just time to move on and do something else. The MMO universe does not owe anyone anything.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
I don't see why more of the old school players don't play runescape. Sure it's old, but somehow it managed to attract a million users and the population is still climbing.
.
It has a lot of the old game feel if you can get past the poorer graphics.
Well shave my back and call me an elf! -- Oghren
The thing I like about all of us old MMORPG vets, is that no matter how much we've given up with the system - we always have hope for the next best MMO.
And by the next week, we're already hitting up MMORPG.com page looking for what else is coming - because we were disappointed.
I remember playing original EQI, I had one heck of a time playing that game and even more so with DAOC. I've never had that exciting, challenging feeling since then.
Oh well, I'm sure the WH40K MMO will solve my problems....(And thus the cycle continues).
Agreed. At one point in time the MMO was revolutionary. Now they are just one cookie cutter after another offering the same ole same ole.
Although I am dissappointed myself as of late, I am not going to give up. I'm gonna keep looking for that something revolutionary again.
Our spirit was here long before you
Long before us
And long will it be after your pride brings you to your end
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
but i have to say though, the community in today's MMOs will never be the same as the MMOs back in the early 2000s, but the community have since been so different, i cant think how it will be in 50 years time *shudders*
i remember back in the days
where Ragnarok and FFXI was a hit ( 2005ish ) which is only 5 years ago, the community that time was a joy to behold
it's a game where i happened to made lots friends that is to stay until today and even become real friends
then i move on to WoW in 2006, WoW was still a good game that time until right before WOTLK
made friends on WoW but were never as impacting as i were in Ragnarok and FFXI, the community was unable to make it happen
and i can bet most people here will agree that it is almost impossible anymore to find a band of friends like what most of us used to back in the early 2000s MMO community
now, new MMOs, most of them are still same as ever, but there is also many that are already better than the classic MMO
some game gets better in features, mechanics and more and more genre is popping up
but i think Community is what is missing, where games might get better, but the community gets worse each day
this is what i think made lots of vets stop trying
because in all honesty, i think Community is what makes a MMO great
if you compare Ragnarok with the new MMO that there is now on the market, in terms of mechanics and feature, the new ones definitely win
but for me, what makes Ragnarok once a great MMO is that community that is lost now
So What Now?
Hey Normike,
Excellent points and no mate, I didn't really think about it like that - the Sim players are taking over MMOs... good point.
Well, I've been hammering Bad Company 2 now for a while - looked the other day and I've got 100+ hours on it (Gulp!) so I'm still a happy bunny!
They do say history repeats itself so I guess it's a case of waiting for the Sim boys and and girls to get bored of MMOs and businesses will turn back to us blood and guts folk.
I was loving AOC but then they ganked the Guardian (Tank) and gave MT to the Dark Templar (Death Knight wanna be?) Nothing like a non dps, non tank char in a raid! So gave up on that.
Thanks again, it all makes sense now.
Really really doubt it. The way I see it, every game will get closer and closer to the mmo. Interactive online games will become soon the main genre. Look at red dead redemption. Was one step away from becoming a mmo. I'll be not surprised if the next rockstar's game is a mmo.
I'm enjoying Red Dead Redemption, but Rockstar still has a long way to go in making their open worlds feel open compared to Bethesda. Even being an open world, RDR still feels limited and linear for the most part. Now, give me an mmo with the world made by Bethesda and the story made by Rockstar, and I'd jump on it in a second.
-Letting Derek Smart work on your game is like letting Osama bin Laden work in the White House. Something will burn.-
-And on the 8th day, man created God.-
quite certain you will get disappointed if you expect a revolution with GW2, think it will be a good game for ppl who corrently like MMOs, personally trying to think of it as a WoW gone in abit better game direction....I might be wrong but then atleast it would be a pleasant suprise :P
ow and yea hate how groups now is GOGOGO L2P blah blah peeps, when started in EQ2 very very few acted like this, and miss how ppl who miss behaved just as well could reroll, which took more than afew hours at start - not that it were anything like EQ1.
hope they would make it bit more of an efford to get a good char again, make you care just alittle for your char, mainly for this purpose. but then doubt ppl would stick together again like this....besides properbly is too many to keep track of ;P
over all wish there would come out a MMO focus on social/tactical aspects again, and not just combat.....MMOs is in general bad action games, guess APB may be a good action (might be a) MMO, havent read anything Id personally think of as any better than GTA or so.
ow and is the reason above that Id be intrested in GW2, a free MMO that actually seems decent and without a cashshop.....cant be worse than the current endless repeated instance grinder of EQ2 :P who ever thought this would be a good thing for MMOs should be fired, who in the world want to do the same exact thing day in day out, almost find it worse than kill 10 rats quests and quest markers.
hm got to apply for GW2 beta, they already trying to get quest markers in FFXIV, got to fight it :P how ppl can be so affraid of "wasting time" in a game is beyond me....games is the biggest waste of time to begin with...why make the waste boring, would rather see a quest less game than how quests is made at this point. hope FF sticks to its current design.
After reading the responses on the first page, i can see i like how some of the people think on this thread. I've been saying to alot of fantasy mmo players (mainly being WoW players)...I mean you pay sub just to do exactly what you can do in free games, and its not like there's a challenge. For the most part its just grinding.
Instead of repeating what OP said though, let me mention a couple of games that don't really follow the boring old grind. I mean try EVE for example, its not so heavily based on skills as you can skill while you're at work. You essentially just come on for mining ops, pvp ops, pos takedowns etc. So long as you can over come the learning curve that is, its a great game to play in the sense its not so heavily based on grinding.
Another game is Entropia Universe. This is by far the most unqie mmo i've played since its all based on a real cash economy. You train skills in the normal mmo fasion, but you do have the option of buying skills from the market and implanting it into you. Also since its based on a real cash economy its quite fun killing mobs as the items they loot are in turn worth real money which you can transfer to your bank. Although some feel uncomfortable in a real cash economy environment in a game, but if you can overcome that its a great game. I mean theres nothing really to feel uncomfortable about - its just like Clothes in RL: It is needed, so there is a demand to buy it, therefore it has monetary value. Same as Armour inside the game: It is needed, so there is demand to buy it, therefore it has value - and at the end of the day you can sell it again if you're not using it.
Anyway those to were just random examples. MMO's aren't all the same... there are just so many (hundreds) of games that are WoW clones trying to leach money off the WOW audience. If all else fails though, take a break off mmo's and do normal online gaming. Not sure what games you're into (FPS, RTS etc) but they all have games that are online these days which is a whole lotta fun.
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What a lovely, bright, well thought out post.
You've pretty well detailed my own thinking on this matter. I definitely notice it...I'm not sure exactly what's caused it...and the only "solution" I can see is to, as you said, lead by example. What does that mean? Well for me it means....
I don't steal harvesting nodes. If someone is standing near one, I ask if they need it.
I help the sincerely seeking new players. In other words, if they seem to genuinely be needing help, and I don't see them being a douche in chat channels....I help them. If I see someone being rude TO them....I apologize in a tell (whisper), and let them know that not everyone in the game is a jackass. I sometimes go completely out of my way to help. I take time to answer their questions. I make them larger bags. I do whatever I can to make the environment feel FRIENDLY, at least from one person.
I OFFER myself to mentor low level groups and help with quests when I am able.
I just simply try to be a DECENT HUMAN BEING to the other players in the community, and I try to ignore the segment of the population that seems INTENT on being hateful, rude, and anti-social in their behavior. Which....is actually the hardest part of all of that. Because when I see someone being just a total dick....I really WANT to respond (like I do here on the forums) and read them the riot act. But I have learned that /ignore is my friend, and it has rendered game worlds a much nicer place. I can't totally turn off chat, because then I miss the sincere questions and requests for help....but if I see someone who seems to repeatedly just be a prick.....my ignore list gets fed.
Outside of these things.....I am at a loss as to what can be done to help possibly return communities to a real SENSE of community. And I'm only one person. But I know a lot of other people, at least in EQ2.....do the exact same things I do. Hell I'm in a guild FULL of people like me that make it a POINT to be decent. It's really NOT that difficult. Maybe if enough of us "old timers" do that....it will at least improve communities in a small way....even if it's just VERY small.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Baldurs Gate 2 had as much story as Neverwinter Nights 2 or Dragon Age, so I dont really see your argument.