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My sudden lack of "Hope"...

13

Comments

  • TrobonTrobon Member Posts: 300

    Originally posted by Morv

    First I would like to point out that Yoda moved a starfigther with the force.

    "Judge me by my size do you? Where you should not." - Yoda

    You cannot limit the force with judgements otherwise it becomes true. Judging the starfighter too big is a limitation.

    "You must unlearn what you have learned." - Yoda

    Judging is a learned trait most of you have, unlearn it and realize that Jedi are more than just tough guys.

    Second, to assume Jedi's are pacifists is not the definition of a protector. Look at America, the largest most free country in the world that has literally helped more people in its short life than all other countries on the planet combined. Protecting America's most valuable treasure, freedom and liberty, cannot be done by sitting back and watching. Jedi's are a lot like Americans, we have a great deal of power (missiles, bombs, knowledge) but we do not go around conquering everyone and forcing them into servitude. Instead, we encourage, assist, rebuild, and show compassion.

    Third, Jedi's protect others and ensure freedom from oppressors, key word is freedom. Some day perhaps talking can correct  negitively impacting personalities but right now the course of nature has ensured that it is through self-empowerment and strength.

    Lastly, Yoda moved a starfighter, he was old, and he said himself, "My ally is the force and a powerful ally it is." he also said he was not that strong in the force. Remember?

    An interesting point of view. Philisophically, I would argue that this is not the way the Jedi have felt in many instances, but this is neither the time nor the place. The one thing I disagree with is saying that Yoda said he wasn't strong in the Force. I don't think he ever said that. He may have believed that he had betters, but I think he knew he was among the most powerful Jedi in the council.

  • MorvMorv Member UncommonPosts: 331

    No he said specifically that he was not that strong. It was in one of the movies I can't remember which one I'll go find it. Probably right before he died.

    "Strong am i in the force, but not that strong."

  • MorvMorv Member UncommonPosts: 331

    Originally posted by Trobon

    Originally posted by Morv

    First I would like to point out that Yoda moved a starfigther with the force.

    "Judge me by my size do you? Where you should not." - Yoda

    You cannot limit the force with judgements otherwise it becomes true. Judging the starfighter too big is a limitation.

    "You must unlearn what you have learned." - Yoda

    Judging is a learned trait most of you have, unlearn it and realize that Jedi are more than just tough guys.

    Second, to assume Jedi's are pacifists is not the definition of a protector. Look at America, the largest most free country in the world that has literally helped more people in its short life than all other countries on the planet combined. Protecting America's most valuable treasure, freedom and liberty, cannot be done by sitting back and watching. Jedi's are a lot like Americans, we have a great deal of power (missiles, bombs, knowledge) but we do not go around conquering everyone and forcing them into servitude. Instead, we encourage, assist, rebuild, and show compassion.

    Third, Jedi's protect others and ensure freedom from oppressors, key word is freedom. Some day perhaps talking can correct  negitively impacting personalities but right now the course of nature has ensured that it is through self-empowerment and strength.

    Lastly, Yoda moved a starfighter, he was old, and he said himself, "My ally is the force and a powerful ally it is." he also said he was not that strong in the force. Remember?

    An interesting point of view. Philisophically, I would argue that this is not the way the Jedi have felt in many instances, but this is neither the time nor the place. The one thing I disagree with is saying that Yoda said he wasn't strong in the Force. I don't think he ever said that. He may have believed that he had betters, but I think he knew he was among the most powerful Jedi in the council.

    http://www.yodajeff.com/multimedia/sounds/

    Towards the bottom just search the page for "Strong am I"

     

    Literally right before he died.

  • TrobonTrobon Member Posts: 300

    Originally posted by Morv

    Originally posted by Trobon


    Originally posted by Morv

    First I would like to point out that Yoda moved a starfigther with the force.

    "Judge me by my size do you? Where you should not." - Yoda

    You cannot limit the force with judgements otherwise it becomes true. Judging the starfighter too big is a limitation.

    "You must unlearn what you have learned." - Yoda

    Judging is a learned trait most of you have, unlearn it and realize that Jedi are more than just tough guys.

    Second, to assume Jedi's are pacifists is not the definition of a protector. Look at America, the largest most free country in the world that has literally helped more people in its short life than all other countries on the planet combined. Protecting America's most valuable treasure, freedom and liberty, cannot be done by sitting back and watching. Jedi's are a lot like Americans, we have a great deal of power (missiles, bombs, knowledge) but we do not go around conquering everyone and forcing them into servitude. Instead, we encourage, assist, rebuild, and show compassion.

    Third, Jedi's protect others and ensure freedom from oppressors, key word is freedom. Some day perhaps talking can correct  negitively impacting personalities but right now the course of nature has ensured that it is through self-empowerment and strength.

    Lastly, Yoda moved a starfighter, he was old, and he said himself, "My ally is the force and a powerful ally it is." he also said he was not that strong in the force. Remember?

    An interesting point of view. Philisophically, I would argue that this is not the way the Jedi have felt in many instances, but this is neither the time nor the place. The one thing I disagree with is saying that Yoda said he wasn't strong in the Force. I don't think he ever said that. He may have believed that he had betters, but I think he knew he was among the most powerful Jedi in the council.

    http://www.yodajeff.com/multimedia/sounds/

    Towards the bottom just search the page for "Strong am I"

    He was saying he was not strong enough to overcome death. There is a huge difference between that and thinking you are not strong in the Force. Really he was probably stating that no one could ever be that strong.

    Luke had just told him he couldn't die and he laughed and said that quote.

  • RedRaptor22RedRaptor22 Member Posts: 44

    I thought the trailer was great, made me want to see a TOR and ME movie series by the same people.

    The argument is kind of silly because I've played each OR game through 4 times 4 different ways or more and never once got dark or light points for using certain attacks against certain npcs so thats just a lie.

    I only saw a jedi using force push to take down a sith warrior to save some troopers, it's nothing that could'nt be done in either of the other games, and similar things have been done in the movies by Yoda himself to throw objects at the emperor.

    Personally I really get into exploring the canon but I have'nt dedicated the better part of my life to it including the times I should be having sex or going to work so I really don't understand all of the nerd rage over the tiny details, thought that was for the star trek folks.

    Aside from that anybody who's really managed to absorb all of these tiny details may just not have room left to pick up the glaring fact that apart from members of the jedi counsil, jedi as a whole are probably about as diverse a group as bounty hunters in their methods and techniques.

    FFS Anakin's padawan fights in the Sith Shien stance.....that's not very jedi either but I've never once heard anyone cry about it, or Luke Skywalker becoming both a Jedi and Sith master for that matter.

    And of course Boba was a clone.

  • BeefMach1neBeefMach1ne Member Posts: 32

    I agree that made me LOL pretty hard when I saw the resmeblance to a Hadoken/ Kamehameha Wave... I mean even her hands where in the classic position/ formation. It was pretty lol never in star wars have I seen a Force push like that... But should we judge the game over it NO when you see a GAMEPLAY vid with jedi's going super sayin and shooting Kamehamehas THEN you should worry lol.

  • bronzeroninbronzeronin Member Posts: 89

    All I got to say is that things change over time.  We have two points of reference KOTOR & the original movies, you can maybe put in the books written by other people but can you really use anything but the original movies and canon?   Can you honestly say then what things would be like several hundred years after KOTOR for several thousand years before the movies?  Think for a minute, 300 years ago, what was religion like, what was politics like, society, the economic system?  Things change and since all we got to go on is history which can be grossly misstated or misinterpreted I feel that we can' t really say what the Jedi or Sith of the time frame of this game will and won't do.  My 2 republic credits.  

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.

    Groucho Marx

  • slim26slim26 Member UncommonPosts: 645

    OK I am going to help out OP on this so that he/she do not missunderstand the force use by a Jedi vs Sith. Yes, Jedi do use force to defend them self " that is what they train for years for" but it is never used to kill the attacker directly, it is more so like a push but the use of the Light saber is the qualify tool to for a Jedi to kill. Sith on the other hand use both LS and the dark force to kill, they don't have force push just pure cold hearted destruction like force choke. Even in this game you see the Jedi using the LS more than anything and the Sith using more of the dark force over LS.  Jedi Knights are more skilled in LS play vs Sith that are stronger in the dark force.

  • EvileEvile Member Posts: 534

    Luke looked real defensive when he spanked Vader.

    Mace Windu's fighting style was reeeaaal defensive. 

    /sarcasim off

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

    Go read up a bit and then come back here and say "lightside Jedi are defensive" especially considering Mace's style was based around focusing your darkside and using the enjoyment of hate. Real defensive there image

    Light jedi being defensive is NOT HOW they fight, it is WHY they fight.

    image

  • ConverseSCConverseSC Member Posts: 572

    Do you guys remember that scene in Return of the Jedi, where Luke force-chokes the pig-guards in Jabba's palace?

  • AndyPrestonAndyPreston Member Posts: 63

    Originally posted by Morv

    First I would like to point out that Yoda moved a starfigther with the force.

    "Judge me by my size do you? Where you should not." - Yoda

    You cannot limit the force with judgements otherwise it becomes true. Judging the starfighter too big is a limitation.

    "You must unlearn what you have learned." - Yoda

    Judging is a learned trait most of you have, unlearn it and realize that Jedi are more than just tough guys.

    Second, to assume Jedi's are pacifists is not the definition of a protector. Look at America, the largest most free country in the world that has literally helped more people in its short life than all other countries on the planet combined. Protecting America's most valuable treasure, freedom and liberty, cannot be done by sitting back and watching. Jedi's are a lot like Americans, we have a great deal of power (missiles, bombs, knowledge) but we do not go around conquering everyone and forcing them into servitude. Instead, we encourage, assist, rebuild, and show compassion.

    Third, Jedi's protect others and ensure freedom from oppressors, key word is freedom. Some day perhaps talking can correct  negitively impacting personalities but right now the course of nature has ensured that it is through self-empowerment and strength.

    Lastly, Yoda moved a starfighter, he was old, and he said himself, "My ally is the force and a powerful ally it is." he also said he was not that strong in the force. Remember?

    I was happily aggreeing with what you were syaing until you posted about America being the protectors of freedom and liberty... seriously, you show compassion through assistance and rebuilding?? That might have been the idea hundres of years ago, but I think the aggressive political stance of America sicne WW2 has shown them to be nothing more than school yard bullies and murderers.

    Heres a list of America's theatres of aggression since world war 2.

    China 1945-46, 1950-53 

    Korea 1950-53 

    Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69 

    Indonesia 1958 

    Cuba 1959-61 

    Congo 1964 

    Peru 1965 

    Laos 1964-73 

    Vietnam 1961-73 

    Cambodia 1969-70 

    Lebanon 1983-84 

    Grenada 1983 

    Libya 1986 

    El Salvador 1980s 

    Nicaragua 1980s 

    Panama 1989 

    Sudan 1998

    Afghanistan

    Iraq

     

    And if you believe the political bullshit forced down your throats about WHY they did what they did, well you're a sad individual. Its all about domination, political interest, oil, money, power and their quoted New World Order.

     

    And I think we all know who really blew up the Twin Towers to escalate the war... Good O'l Boy Bush! Hooray for the US of Aggression!!

     

    SO lets keep comparisons between the Jedi, Star Wars, and the real world to a minimum please. This is a forum about gaming, not about patting the Star Spangled Banner on the back for murdering people.

  • EvileEvile Member Posts: 534

    Originally posted by AndyPreston

    Originally posted by Morv

    First I would like to point out that Yoda moved a starfigther with the force.

    "Judge me by my size do you? Where you should not." - Yoda

    You cannot limit the force with judgements otherwise it becomes true. Judging the starfighter too big is a limitation.

    "You must unlearn what you have learned." - Yoda

    Judging is a learned trait most of you have, unlearn it and realize that Jedi are more than just tough guys.

    Second, to assume Jedi's are pacifists is not the definition of a protector. Look at America, the largest most free country in the world that has literally helped more people in its short life than all other countries on the planet combined. Protecting America's most valuable treasure, freedom and liberty, cannot be done by sitting back and watching. Jedi's are a lot like Americans, we have a great deal of power (missiles, bombs, knowledge) but we do not go around conquering everyone and forcing them into servitude. Instead, we encourage, assist, rebuild, and show compassion.

    Third, Jedi's protect others and ensure freedom from oppressors, key word is freedom. Some day perhaps talking can correct  negitively impacting personalities but right now the course of nature has ensured that it is through self-empowerment and strength.

    Lastly, Yoda moved a starfighter, he was old, and he said himself, "My ally is the force and a powerful ally it is." he also said he was not that strong in the force. Remember?

    I was happily aggreeing with what you were syaing until you posted about America being the protectors of freedom and liberty... seriously, you show compassion through assistance and rebuilding?? That might have been the idea hundres of years ago, but I think the aggressive political stance of America sicne WW2 has shown them to be nothing more than school yard bullies and murderers.

    Heres a list of America's theatres of aggression since world war 2.

    China 1945-46, 1950-53 

    Korea 1950-53 

    Guatemala 1954, 1960, 1967-69 

    Indonesia 1958 

    Cuba 1959-61 

    Congo 1964 

    Peru 1965 

    Laos 1964-73 

    Vietnam 1961-73 

    Cambodia 1969-70 

    Lebanon 1983-84 

    Grenada 1983 

    Libya 1986 

    El Salvador 1980s 

    Nicaragua 1980s 

    Panama 1989 

    Sudan 1998

    Afghanistan

    Iraq

     

    And if you believe the political bullshit forced down your throats about WHY they did what they did, well you're a sad individual. Its all about domination, political interest, oil, money, power and their quoted New World Order.

     

    And I think we all know who really blew up the Twin Towers to escalate the war... Good O'l Boy Bush! Hooray for the US of Aggression!!

     

    SO lets keep comparisons between the Jedi, Star Wars, and the real world to a minimum please. This is a forum about gaming, not about patting the Star Spangled Banner on the back for murdering people.

    Don't forget Iran

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF5s_DaDm4I

    image

  • TrobonTrobon Member Posts: 300

    Originally posted by Evile

    Luke looked real defensive when he spanked Vader.

    Mace Windu's fighting style was reeeaaal defensive. 

    /sarcasim off

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Lightsaber_combat

    Go read up a bit and then come back here and say "lightside Jedi are defensive" especially considering Mace's style was based around focusing your darkside and using the enjoyment of hate. Real defensive there image

    Light jedi being defensive is NOT HOW they fight, it is WHY they fight.

    As has been said the lightsaber is the tool Jedi are supposed to use for combat. Let me use an example the is even more black and white to illustrate this idea. In the Dresden Files series killing with magic is against one of the seven laws of magic. Violation of any of these laws is punishable by death and the Wardens are the exectutioners of these lawbreakers. Wardens are not exempt from these laws though so to kill they are given swords.

    In Star Wars Jedi try not to use the Force to kill. The Force is created by life and to use it to extinguish that life is considered, by them, to be an unnatural act. Instead they focus on their lightsaber combat.

    Now is this realistic for an MMO? Probably not. However, when someone says that the Force should not be used offensively this is what they mean.

  • TrobonTrobon Member Posts: 300

    Originally posted by ConverseSC

    Do you guys remember that scene in Return of the Jedi, where Luke force-chokes the pig-guards in Jabba's palace?

    By canon he mind-tricked them into believing they were being choked. Lucas said it once therefor it is.

    Of course this serves to highlight how difficult canon can be.

  • bronzeroninbronzeronin Member Posts: 89

    Yup reminds me of something said about how certain things are true from a certain point of view.  Not mentioning who or when said but everyone should know.

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read.

    Groucho Marx

  • storylessstoryless Member Posts: 158

    Originally posted by miagisan

    Sorry but you are wrong.

     

    The Tenements of the Jedi Code also state (the relevant parts):

    - A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for aggression or personal gain. (defending a planet from invasion seems to directly relate to this)

    - Jedi must put the needs of the community above the needs of individuals. (again, defending the community of the planet from Sith invasion and destruction)

    - A Jedi must protect the weak and defenseless from evil.(see above two)

    - Jedi must always cooperate in battle or crisis.(assisting the soldiers in combat in defense of the planet)

     

    Funny, i see alot of "Defense" in the above explanation........

    The Jedi, according to the Tenements of the Jedi Code, had every right to use their force powers in combat.

    The 'tenements'?

  • Vagrant_ZeroVagrant_Zero Member Posts: 1,190


    Originally posted by reillan
    I'm saying "force attacks" are always the domain of the dark side.  Jedi never use them in the movies or the books...

    Your alternate reality Star Wars would sound cool if it didn't sound terrible.

  • storylessstoryless Member Posts: 158

    Originally posted by Trobon

    Originally posted by ConverseSC

    Do you guys remember that scene in Return of the Jedi, where Luke force-chokes the pig-guards in Jabba's palace?

    By canon he mind-tricked them into believing they were being choked. Lucas said it once therefor it is.

    Of course this serves to highlight how difficult canon can be.

    It also goes to show you exactly what kind of a tool Lucas is.

  • swollenwabitswollenwabit Member Posts: 107

    According to the Roleplaying books of Star wars the different force attacks isn't necessary evil by themself, "force lightning" is by default evil, but "force push" isn't. If you use force push to kill a innocent person by throwing him off a building etc it's an evil act and would get you closer to the dark side, but if you use force push to rescue friends from rolling stones etc it is a good act. The jedi balances on a thin line when it comes to what is good and what is evil, a lot of the decision they make will have an impact on themself. Whilst fighting a sith any jedi will do everything they can to beat the sith. If they use force push and kills a sith jedi this isn't a evil act as the sith is not seen as innocent.

    Keep in mind the sith and the jedi are at war with eachother and there is no reason for the jedi not to use their knowledge to the max against the sith which will use all their powers to destroy them. 

  • rejadrejad Member Posts: 346

    They fancy up a force-push for a cinematic trailer and THAT is what shakes your faith in the game?  OMG...

  • kalarenkalaren Member Posts: 83

    Simple, jedi aren't perfect, the fact they can fall to the dark side is proof of that.

  • TalgenTalgen Member UncommonPosts: 400

    Let's not forget that in the beginning Bioware said you will be able to play a light or dark character on EITHER side.  So it will all come down to choice on how you play your character to make (or keep) them either light or dark.


  • Originally posted by Torvaldr

    On the other hand it's hard to blame people for wanting a consistent story, especially when Lucas puts his crap so high up on a pedestal.  That's why I compared it to Tolkein.  Lucas sells cotton candy and calls it steak.  Tolkein just loved creating languages and an intricate story to surround them and give them life.  People are drawn to a deep involviving story so it's not surprising the lore nerds try and create rules or point out glaring foibles.  It drove me crazy when I played LotRO.  I'm sure the TOR forums will be full of that when it goes live.  After playing LotRO I can see how limiting an IP can be to fun game design.  It's better to depart from the lore a bit and have fun than stick to the letter of the law.

     

    Is that why LOTRO is doing so well it has gone F2P?

     

    Yes, you are absolutely right, people ARE drawn to a deep involving story and world. The problem is no MMO developer has had the balls to really stick to the lore of an IP and see what happens if you do. LOTRO should have been a gritty low fantasy setting, which would have been true to the lore and even the movies, but Turbine made it more and more like WoW because there are players who want sparkly effets and a pew pew mage (aka the Runekeeper) to play.

     

    IMO the long term cost of sacrificing the integrity of an MMO setting is underestimated by players and developers alike.

     

    lore, depth and longevity > short term fun

     

    This is just as true for SW:TOR.

     

    In this particular case though the OP is wrong, as someone else already pointed out Yoda used the force "aggressively" against the Emperor which even I remembered.

  • TrobonTrobon Member Posts: 300

    Originally posted by Strap

    Is that why LOTRO is doing so well it has gone F2P?

     

    I hate when people say this. LotRO is going to a hybrid model because they saw success with DDO. Now if they will see similar success or not is a matter for another debate, but they are switching in the hopes to make money, not because they are doing poorly. They have never had a server merge and the populations are still fairly good. Please don't spread misinformation.

  • KorithianKorithian Member Posts: 243

     The trailer has very little to nothing to do with the game. The game play wont be anything like what was shown and the graphics are so far removed from the CGI dipiction that it could be a trailer for a completely different game.

     

      So while you can dislike stoping a lightsaber with your hand or troopers shoulder barging sith out the way at the end of the day these things have nothing to do with the game. So while you can debate the merits of the video whether you like or hate it shouldn't influcence whether you like or hate the game cause the are completely different things.

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