No Grind? Its impossible. If i need to repeat a dungeons 99999999 times, to get money and more money, or maybe special loots from there to sell... this is grind too. How they will do this? Put a wall where i cannot enter? If i do 3 times that dungeon, the wall appear and i cannot enter there anymore. Will be this? lets see.
Like elite missions... Deep, or maybe... ohhh the infinite grind to get tormented itens, the so wanted Armbrace... UW... all the great infinite grind... and yes im a fan from GW, i played only GW last 5 years. I have 4 accounts, all full of great things.... all with this grind... how they will put an end in this??? i think NEVER.
I remember my first days playing EQ. I remember walking outside of my home city and immediatly seeing another player getting attacked by a bat or bear or something. Seeing a fellow hero being assulted, I decided to join in. AT THAT TIME we both were ok with this because neither of us even imagined that the mechanics would make it so only one of us received any experience from the encounter. MMO's were new, not a lot of people had a grasp on the way the mechanics really worked. And because of that we all imagined that they worked "correctly", the way we had all dreamed persistent 3D worlds would.
I remember walking into Crushbone and hearing someone shout "Dvinn" and seeing 30+ newbs rush in and try to take down a mob 10 levels higher than the highest player there. We all figured, "yeah he is 10 levels higher but there are 30 of us!". We didn't yet know that the mechanics of the game made it practically impossible for us to do anything but fail to the last man.
Think of all the things that you need to teach a completely new player when they play this genre for the first time. Things like:
"Your not helping him, your actually stealing his kills and making it harder for him".
"You need to join togeather in a group for you to share the experience for that kill".
"you actually have to be the first player to hit that mob to get credit for it for your quest."
"No she didn't kill all of the wolves, they will respawn again in a few minutes"
"I can't join your group because I am too high level and you won't get any experience."
"You can't even touch a mob that is 10 levels higher than you no matter how many of you there are."
"Don't worry the guard won't attack you unless you're very close, all of your opponents in this game have really bad vision."
"No you can't hide in the Inn's basement, once a mob has aggro on you they can see you through walls, around mountains and behind trees."
"you can't drink because your in 'combat mode', which means there is a mob out there with you on its aggro list"
This is what is unintuitive and immersion breaking for MMOs. And thats just the short list. The mechanics "should", barring technical limitations, try and emulate our real world in some reasonable fashion.
The MMO playerbase have grown so accustom to these limitations that we see them as constants in the MMO world. They are not. Some of them may be neccessary for technical reasons but developers should "always" question them with every new iteration.
The GW2 team gets it!. "It's Not Ok!", is the single best thing I have heard from a MMO developer in a long time. They likely won't be able to pull off everything but they are trying. They have started with a vision of "we can change it" instead of sticking with a more pessimistic "it won't work otherwise". We need more developers like this!!!
I remember my first days playing EQ. I remember walking outside of my home city and immediatly seeing another player getting attacked by a bat or bear or something. Seeing a fellow hero being assulted, I decided to join in. AT THAT TIME we both were ok with this because neither of us even imagined that the mechanics would make it so only one of us received any experience from the encounter. MMO's were new, not a lot of people had a grasp on the way the mechanics really worked. And because of that we all imagined that they worked "correctly", the way we had all dreamed persistent 3D worlds would.
I remember walking into Crushbone and hearing someone shout "Dvinn" and seeing 30+ newbs rush in and try to take down a mob 10 levels higher than the highest player there. We all figured, "yeah he is 10 levels higher but there are 30 of us!". We didn't yet know that the mechanics of the game made it practically impossible for us to do anything but fail to the last man.
Think of all the things that you need to teach a completely new player when they play this genre for the first time. Things like:
"Your not helping him, your actually stealing his kills and making it harder for him".
"You need to join togeather in a group for you to share the experience for that kill".
"you actually have to be the first player to hit that mob to get credit for it for your quest."
"No she didn't kill all of the wolves, they will respawn again in a few minutes"
"I can't join your group because I am too high level and you won't get any experience."
"You can't even touch a mob that is 10 levels higher than you no matter how many of you there are."
"Don't worry the guard won't attack you unless you're very close, all of your opponents in this game have really bad vision."
"No you can't hide in the Inn's basement, once a mob has aggro on you they can see you through walls, around mountains and behind trees."
"you can't drink because your in 'combat mode', which means there is a mob out there with you on its aggro list"
This is what is unintuitive and immersion breaking for MMOs. And thats just the short list. The mechanics "should", barring technical limitations, try and emulate our real world in some reasonable fashion.
The MMO playerbase have grown so accustom to these limitations that we see them as constants in the MMO world. They are not. Some of them may be neccessary for technical reasons but developers should "always" question them with every new iteration.
The GW2 team gets it!. "It's Not Ok!", is the single best thing I have heard from a MMO developer in a long time. They likely won't be able to pull off everything but they are trying. They have started with a vision of "we can change it" instead of sticking with a more pessimistic "it won't work otherwise". We need more developers like this!!!
Great post! This is what impresses me most about ArenaNet's blogs etc so far: Checking their assumptions.
The great thing is that they probably will pull of close to everything they're talking about if not all of it. This game didn't just pop up over night. All this stuff they're talking about exists in the game right now. It's in alpha stage right now. That's why the manifesto is so late instead of in the beginning of production. AN wanted to make sure they could do what they imagined.
While they won't get rid of grind, they will be getting rid of the NEED to grind. You won't need to any more. Of course, if you want to go out and grind, that's up to you. They can't really stop that kind of player decision. But it won't be a need anymore. Thank goodness.
The GW2 team gets it!. "It's Not Ok!", is the single best thing I have heard from a MMO developer in a long time. They likely won't be able to pull off everything but they are trying. They have started with a vision of "we can change it" instead of sticking with a more pessimistic "it won't work otherwise". We need more developers like this!!!
The only thing I disagree with in your post really is this idea the GW2 gets it. We've heard companies claim they get it before, and then deliver the same thing over and over again. I don't hate enough of these problem areas in MMOs to actually exit the genre, so it's not an automatic disqualification for me for a game to follow similiar paths as those before them making some nice tweaks or just adding flavor. GW2 might actually live up to it's promises; I don't know yet. Because of past performances from other companies claiming similiar things, I just don't buy it... yet. I am eager to be proven wrong however.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
The GW2 team gets it!. "It's Not Ok!", is the single best thing I have heard from a MMO developer in a long time. They likely won't be able to pull off everything but they are trying. They have started with a vision of "we can change it" instead of sticking with a more pessimistic "it won't work otherwise". We need more developers like this!!!
The only thing I disagree with in your post really is this idea the GW2 gets it. We've heard companies claim they get it before, and then deliver the same thing over and over again. I don't hate enough of these problem areas in MMOs to actually exit the genre, so it's not an automatic disqualification for me for a game to follow similiar paths as those before them making some nice tweaks or just adding flavor. GW2 might actually live up to it's promises; I don't know yet. Because of past performances from other companies claiming similiar things, I just don't buy it... yet. I am eager to be proven wrong however.
There's a good chance that everything they've talked about is in fact in the game itself. Again as I said, this game didn't just pop up over night. It's been around for a while. Just no information has been released for it until recently and for good reason. ANet wouldn't just come out with info years after development just to say things that aren't true. They're not talking about what they want to do. They're talking about what they're doing.
I'd say that's the difference between this game and others. You have a right to be cautious. We all do. But chances of ANet lying to us so far into development are slim and would be stupid for them. They have a fan base. Guild Wars itself has a fan base. It'd be kinda different if this was just Guild Wars and we didn't know who ANet was and never heard of GW before. Then of course I'd be completely doubting them. But everything points towards the game actually being what they're saying it's going to be.
In years of mmo play there will always be some grind mmos will not change too much they are all made with the same concepts in mind a virtual world that is persistant where you the character will choose your own virtual life and play the way you want. so get it through ya thick heads not gonna be very many change too an mmo cept maybe making em more like normal console games if thats the case stick with playing console rpgs.
In years of mmo play there will always be some grind mmos will not change too much they are all made with the same concepts in mind a virtual world that is persistant where you the character will choose your own virtual life and play the way you want. so get it through ya thick heads not gonna be very many change too an mmo cept maybe making em more like normal console games if thats the case stick with playing console rpgs.
MMORPGs aren't supposed to be about grind. Of course there's going to be grind in MMOs. But there's a huge difference between needing to grind and wanting to grind. Developers these days make sure you have to grind to feel like you've done anything. It's just a ploy. And MMORPGs aren't supposed to be like that.
You're used to the fact that there is grind in pretty much every MMO. So of course you'll say grind is apart of the genre when really, if developers worried about actual content, nobody would need to grind. And I wouldn't say any of these MMORPG games out today are true RPGs. The console RPGs are as close to a RPG as you can get. And there's nothing wrong with the consoles. They're obviously doing something right.
ArenaNet is looking to make a true RPG. And that involves putting the need to grind in the trash. Just because grind is normal and you're used to it doesn't mean it has to be apart of every MMO you play. And it doesn't mean it's right.
I absolutely love this thread. Its filled with people that accuse us (us being the people that take enjoyment out of what they refer to as "grinds") of "not understanding", when the reality is we understand just fine. We just don't like this style of play, and we're tired of the GW2 fanboi crowd constantly bitching about the games we like and and accusing our play style of being inferior and "not fun".
Personally, i am exceedingly happy this game is coming out, because all the people who bitch about grinding, and having to level, and ZOMG why cant i create an alt at max level, i dont want to play through the content again, waaaahh waaaaahhh, will finally have "their" game to play, which means they won't be playing "our" games and thus neither party will have to listen to each other. In the end we'll all be happier.
It sounds like what's annoying you isn't the GW game design, but the fanbois who are falling all over one another to sing its praises. Which, of course, begs the question, why bother reading a thread titled "Guild Wars 2: No Grind? Yes, Please!", when clearly, fanbois tripping over one another to sing the praises of GW2, is precisely what you would expect to find here? It's a bit akin to going to see Stallone flick, then complaining that the acting was too wooden. I mean, exactly what were you expecting?
So evidentally, you've either stumbled in here accidentally because you failed to read the thread title, you're functionally illiterate and didn't understand the title (not likely since it appears you can spell), or you're just a troll. C'mon, man up. It's the third one right? Right? Don't worry. No one will hold it against you -- just stop blushing and come out of the closet.
WHAT I LOVE ABOUT RPGS :good storys you feel like your part of the world and story. what i hate is you cant play with friends and no pvp.WHAT I LOVE ABOUT MMORPGS:play with friends big worlds and pvp what i hate is grinding killing same monsters over and over for hours just for exp quest seem stupid just go kill a few monster over the hill and dont have any effect on the game storys most of the time are not that good if any story at all now GW2: seems to have evrything i love quests mean something and will have an impact on your story and no grinding just go with the story and play with friends and pvp if you wish and you can jusrt grind alot if you wish too and i did some research on the girl that wrights the storys for GW2 she has won awards so should be a great story even if they pull off half what they say they will ill be a happy camper cant wait
When people have to grind, atleast a little bit, they grow an attatchment to their characters. Just throwing them to max level and easily attainable max gear will be a disaster.
Where do you get that it's easy or anything is just being thrown at the player? A finite amount of time does not equate to easy. Grinding does not build more of an attachment, it becomes tedious and boring.
Think about it this way, if every level takes 2-3 hours per level, and there are 80 levels, you're looking at 160-240 hours of gameplay from 1-80. Hell, it's 80 hours of gameplay if it's one hour per level. This does not include any content after level cap as well.
Also, gear acquisition as an endgame mechanic is how many mmorpgs deliver "content". To me, that's not content delivery, it's blatant carrot-on-a-stick to ensure subs. GW2 doesn't have a subscription cost, so ArenaNet doesn't have to work hard to keep you paying, but what they don't want is to make the game fun to keep you playing (and wanting to purchase expansions). I really do hope that gear is somewhat easy to obtain, because then it reduces the importance of gear and ArenaNet will have to provide content in a different way.
ArenaNet seems to really want to make changes, and those changes are going to make people feel uncomfortable. However, if they can deliver a solid game with a good amount of polish, we could be facing another major evolution of the genre. After years of being burned by other developers people are going to be very skeptical, and I personally hope ArenaNet can deliver.
If you played GW1 you would know that any level can wear any gear and all that remains after that is if you have enough money to purchase the gear as well as buying runes to raise your armour stats. And once you hit a certain pace, you will almost always have money to improve your gear. The thing you should remember is gear in general is aesthetic (at least in GW1) with only a minor buff to some damage types, it is how you fit your runes that make your gear what it is.
Ummm, If YOU played GW1 you would know that you cannot wear any gear at any level.
Gear was level based and was only available in the areas for that level. ( you can't wear level 20 Asuran armor at level 10! )
Gear, both armor and weapons were customizable through the use of runes and insignias. Different combos were used for different situations and knowing when to use what was not something many people truely mastered. It made a difference! What was great about was that skill, the knowing what would work and being able to do it well was a wonderful feeling and the true mark of a superior player. Skill counted!!
This might not be the case for everyone, but i began playing MMORPGS (WoW to be specific) with a background of loving D&D, (3.5, 4 is crap IMO) because of the Roleplaying and Storytelling. Once I got into WoW i was very happy to read most of the quests and feel the story around... for the next 4 days, then i honestly just accepted and followed the directions of my quest add-on (geez i cant even remember the name of it), In retrospective I think that it was because, even if I loved story and roleplaying, the mood of the game was absolutely different (not that i did not liked it, just different).
I have to admit that the leveling process in a lot of circumstances took the form of grind, but i enjoyed to just log on and kill a number of respawning monsters and also to repeat the dungeons. I think it was ok and I still would enjoy it. But the fact is that a little variety does not hurt anyone. Having a game like GW2 where you can start a high level character for "competitive" purposes, such as raiding or pvp, takes away the pressure to level, in which case with a lower level character you can enjoy the line quest and events.
Also, if grind is not hated, why there are so many power leveling services in WoW, basically you are paying off the monthly fee to begin with a max level character, if you would have the option to go straight to level 80, you would never see any of that. On the other hand, making gear less of an issue also discourages gold spamming, but i guess every succesful game would have that anyway.
Just imagine that 1 week before the release of Cataclysm Blizzard would announce that you can create a level 85 character, and every level 80 character you own will raise to level 85, IMO that would force Blizzard to make all the expansion content end game content, that is basically where everyone plays, so you will have more content and skip the leveling process and if you are dumb enough to pay for power leveling save you some bucks.
It always cracks me up when you have the so-called "hardcore" players complaining about the "casual" gamers. I have been part of raiding guilds in a few MMO's that took down the hardest content and played the game "hardcore". After games such as Lineage, Aion etc. I gladly welcome a game not focused on that sort of ridiculous elitist nonsense. Go ahead and feel like you are so awesome for doing somehting that is "hard"(my kin in Lotro had all server firsts for every top tier raid, didn't make me any better than anyone else, In AoC they were one of the first to secure a fortress and successfully defend it) . Looking down on the people who don't want to commit their lives to a freakin' game is hilarious. I grew tired of the guildies who constantly complained about attendance and people who didn't play enough.(I had excellent attendance btw.) A game should be played when you want to, you should never feel an obligation to play a game. If you do then you are doing it wrong. Relax, enjoy yourself and stop putting a game in front of your REAL life. IMO yes a game should be challenging but not to the point that it becomes not fun, why are you doing it? Just so you can look down on other players who have not completed that content and call them "casual" EZmoders? Get a life......
It always cracks me up when you have the so-called "hardcore" players complaining about the "casual" gamers. I have been part of raiding guilds in a few MMO's that took down the hardest content and played the game "hardcore". After games such as Lineage, Aion etc. I gladly welcome a game not focused on that sort of ridiculous elitist nonsense. Go ahead and feel like you are so awesome for doing somehting that is "hard"(my kin in Lotro had all server firsts for every top tier raid, didn't make me any better than anyone else, In AoC they were one of the first to secure a fortress and successfully defend it) . Looking down on the people who don't want to commit their lives to a freakin' game is hilarious. I grew tired of the guildies who constantly complained about attendance and people who didn't play enough.(I had excellent attendance btw.) A game should be played when you want to, you should never feel an obligation to play a game. If you do then you are doing it wrong. Relax, enjoy yourself and stop putting a game in front of your REAL life. IMO yes a game should be challenging but not to the point that it becomes not fun, why are you doing it? Just so you can look down on other players who have not completed that content and call them "casual" EZmoders? Get a life......
Do not Necro threads, please just leave them dead!
Ive played my fair share of MMOs. And for the record, I havent done any grinding in one since about 2002. Grind is player induced, imo. Its all how you play. Devs can claim to save you from grind, but that like them saying they can save you from yourself.
Comments
Oh how i wish this game came out already. I CANT WAIT ANY LONGER!!
Refreshing how GW 2 looks at leveling. Look forward to its release!
No Grind? Its impossible. If i need to repeat a dungeons 99999999 times, to get money and more money, or maybe special loots from there to sell... this is grind too. How they will do this? Put a wall where i cannot enter? If i do 3 times that dungeon, the wall appear and i cannot enter there anymore. Will be this? lets see.
Like elite missions... Deep, or maybe... ohhh the infinite grind to get tormented itens, the so wanted Armbrace... UW... all the great infinite grind... and yes im a fan from GW, i played only GW last 5 years. I have 4 accounts, all full of great things.... all with this grind... how they will put an end in this??? i think NEVER.
I remember my first days playing EQ. I remember walking outside of my home city and immediatly seeing another player getting attacked by a bat or bear or something. Seeing a fellow hero being assulted, I decided to join in. AT THAT TIME we both were ok with this because neither of us even imagined that the mechanics would make it so only one of us received any experience from the encounter. MMO's were new, not a lot of people had a grasp on the way the mechanics really worked. And because of that we all imagined that they worked "correctly", the way we had all dreamed persistent 3D worlds would.
I remember walking into Crushbone and hearing someone shout "Dvinn" and seeing 30+ newbs rush in and try to take down a mob 10 levels higher than the highest player there. We all figured, "yeah he is 10 levels higher but there are 30 of us!". We didn't yet know that the mechanics of the game made it practically impossible for us to do anything but fail to the last man.
Think of all the things that you need to teach a completely new player when they play this genre for the first time. Things like:
"Your not helping him, your actually stealing his kills and making it harder for him".
"You need to join togeather in a group for you to share the experience for that kill".
"you actually have to be the first player to hit that mob to get credit for it for your quest."
"No she didn't kill all of the wolves, they will respawn again in a few minutes"
"I can't join your group because I am too high level and you won't get any experience."
"You can't even touch a mob that is 10 levels higher than you no matter how many of you there are."
"Don't worry the guard won't attack you unless you're very close, all of your opponents in this game have really bad vision."
"No you can't hide in the Inn's basement, once a mob has aggro on you they can see you through walls, around mountains and behind trees."
"you can't drink because your in 'combat mode', which means there is a mob out there with you on its aggro list"
This is what is unintuitive and immersion breaking for MMOs. And thats just the short list. The mechanics "should", barring technical limitations, try and emulate our real world in some reasonable fashion.
The MMO playerbase have grown so accustom to these limitations that we see them as constants in the MMO world. They are not. Some of them may be neccessary for technical reasons but developers should "always" question them with every new iteration.
The GW2 team gets it!. "It's Not Ok!", is the single best thing I have heard from a MMO developer in a long time. They likely won't be able to pull off everything but they are trying. They have started with a vision of "we can change it" instead of sticking with a more pessimistic "it won't work otherwise". We need more developers like this!!!
Great post! This is what impresses me most about ArenaNet's blogs etc so far: Checking their assumptions.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
The great thing is that they probably will pull of close to everything they're talking about if not all of it. This game didn't just pop up over night. All this stuff they're talking about exists in the game right now. It's in alpha stage right now. That's why the manifesto is so late instead of in the beginning of production. AN wanted to make sure they could do what they imagined.
While they won't get rid of grind, they will be getting rid of the NEED to grind. You won't need to any more. Of course, if you want to go out and grind, that's up to you. They can't really stop that kind of player decision. But it won't be a need anymore. Thank goodness.
The only thing I disagree with in your post really is this idea the GW2 gets it. We've heard companies claim they get it before, and then deliver the same thing over and over again. I don't hate enough of these problem areas in MMOs to actually exit the genre, so it's not an automatic disqualification for me for a game to follow similiar paths as those before them making some nice tweaks or just adding flavor. GW2 might actually live up to it's promises; I don't know yet. Because of past performances from other companies claiming similiar things, I just don't buy it... yet. I am eager to be proven wrong however.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
There's a good chance that everything they've talked about is in fact in the game itself. Again as I said, this game didn't just pop up over night. It's been around for a while. Just no information has been released for it until recently and for good reason. ANet wouldn't just come out with info years after development just to say things that aren't true. They're not talking about what they want to do. They're talking about what they're doing.
I'd say that's the difference between this game and others. You have a right to be cautious. We all do. But chances of ANet lying to us so far into development are slim and would be stupid for them. They have a fan base. Guild Wars itself has a fan base. It'd be kinda different if this was just Guild Wars and we didn't know who ANet was and never heard of GW before. Then of course I'd be completely doubting them. But everything points towards the game actually being what they're saying it's going to be.
In years of mmo play there will always be some grind mmos will not change too much they are all made with the same concepts in mind a virtual world that is persistant where you the character will choose your own virtual life and play the way you want. so get it through ya thick heads not gonna be very many change too an mmo cept maybe making em more like normal console games if thats the case stick with playing console rpgs.
MMORPGs aren't supposed to be about grind. Of course there's going to be grind in MMOs. But there's a huge difference between needing to grind and wanting to grind. Developers these days make sure you have to grind to feel like you've done anything. It's just a ploy. And MMORPGs aren't supposed to be like that.
You're used to the fact that there is grind in pretty much every MMO. So of course you'll say grind is apart of the genre when really, if developers worried about actual content, nobody would need to grind. And I wouldn't say any of these MMORPG games out today are true RPGs. The console RPGs are as close to a RPG as you can get. And there's nothing wrong with the consoles. They're obviously doing something right.
ArenaNet is looking to make a true RPG. And that involves putting the need to grind in the trash. Just because grind is normal and you're used to it doesn't mean it has to be apart of every MMO you play. And it doesn't mean it's right.
It sounds like what's annoying you isn't the GW game design, but the fanbois who are falling all over one another to sing its praises. Which, of course, begs the question, why bother reading a thread titled "Guild Wars 2: No Grind? Yes, Please!", when clearly, fanbois tripping over one another to sing the praises of GW2, is precisely what you would expect to find here? It's a bit akin to going to see Stallone flick, then complaining that the acting was too wooden. I mean, exactly what were you expecting?
So evidentally, you've either stumbled in here accidentally because you failed to read the thread title, you're functionally illiterate and didn't understand the title (not likely since it appears you can spell), or you're just a troll. C'mon, man up. It's the third one right? Right? Don't worry. No one will hold it against you -- just stop blushing and come out of the closet.
Am I the only one who thinks this is not a good news
I mean, what's the point of an RPG if you can reach max level within days from start?
Sounds more like an arcade action game to me.
Yes, its jst you XD .
After playing WoW, Aion, and Warhammer... no grind sounds rather appealing.
This might not be the case for everyone, but i began playing MMORPGS (WoW to be specific) with a background of loving D&D, (3.5, 4 is crap IMO) because of the Roleplaying and Storytelling. Once I got into WoW i was very happy to read most of the quests and feel the story around... for the next 4 days, then i honestly just accepted and followed the directions of my quest add-on (geez i cant even remember the name of it), In retrospective I think that it was because, even if I loved story and roleplaying, the mood of the game was absolutely different (not that i did not liked it, just different).
I have to admit that the leveling process in a lot of circumstances took the form of grind, but i enjoyed to just log on and kill a number of respawning monsters and also to repeat the dungeons. I think it was ok and I still would enjoy it. But the fact is that a little variety does not hurt anyone. Having a game like GW2 where you can start a high level character for "competitive" purposes, such as raiding or pvp, takes away the pressure to level, in which case with a lower level character you can enjoy the line quest and events.
Also, if grind is not hated, why there are so many power leveling services in WoW, basically you are paying off the monthly fee to begin with a max level character, if you would have the option to go straight to level 80, you would never see any of that. On the other hand, making gear less of an issue also discourages gold spamming, but i guess every succesful game would have that anyway.
Just imagine that 1 week before the release of Cataclysm Blizzard would announce that you can create a level 85 character, and every level 80 character you own will raise to level 85, IMO that would force Blizzard to make all the expansion content end game content, that is basically where everyone plays, so you will have more content and skip the leveling process and if you are dumb enough to pay for power leveling save you some bucks.
It always cracks me up when you have the so-called "hardcore" players complaining about the "casual" gamers. I have been part of raiding guilds in a few MMO's that took down the hardest content and played the game "hardcore". After games such as Lineage, Aion etc. I gladly welcome a game not focused on that sort of ridiculous elitist nonsense. Go ahead and feel like you are so awesome for doing somehting that is "hard"(my kin in Lotro had all server firsts for every top tier raid, didn't make me any better than anyone else, In AoC they were one of the first to secure a fortress and successfully defend it) . Looking down on the people who don't want to commit their lives to a freakin' game is hilarious. I grew tired of the guildies who constantly complained about attendance and people who didn't play enough.(I had excellent attendance btw.) A game should be played when you want to, you should never feel an obligation to play a game. If you do then you are doing it wrong. Relax, enjoy yourself and stop putting a game in front of your REAL life. IMO yes a game should be challenging but not to the point that it becomes not fun, why are you doing it? Just so you can look down on other players who have not completed that content and call them "casual" EZmoders? Get a life......
Do not Necro threads, please just leave them dead!
Ive played my fair share of MMOs. And for the record, I havent done any grinding in one since about 2002. Grind is player induced, imo. Its all how you play. Devs can claim to save you from grind, but that like them saying they can save you from yourself.