The closest I personally came to playing a samebox game was UO. It's not about being a hero, it's not about lofty ambitions to rule over anything. It's about carving out a place in the world and being able to lose yourself in it for a while. If you hit a wall, it won't be long because tools are in place to over come it. Most mmos looking to label themselves sandbox games are trying too hard to look into petty things.
I've played EvE and it's NOT sandbox. I was there for the beta and I can tell you. I would never consider a cold, lifeless void like EvE a sandbox. I cannot connect with something so inorganic. Your skills are set it and forget it, your shell is interchangable and frequently replaced. It holds no real value for the players themselves and there for can never form a true bond between user and player. I want to see my character interact with his environment. I want to show a reflection of my personality through my character's physical appearance as well as his mental persona. No, EvE is a player-driven, graphically enhanced, online free market experience with PvP added so players can "vent out" their frustrations from time to time. Astroids + chat room + AH = EvE.
The next true sandbox mmo will have PvP, but not revolve around it.
It will have PvE but not depend on it.
It will have combat as 1 of 2 tools used to progress your avatar.
It will not hinder playing alone and will not discourage playing with friends.
It will allow the freedom to build artifical things, but not organic.
That day won't come for a long, long time. But then again I'm not actually waiting for that day.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
People keep forgetting (or are unwilling to admit it) that we are wired differently.
It has nothing to do with being told what to do. It has everything to do with a conscious choice of how one wants to spend their time.
People who are invested in forging a world are the prime audience for a sandbox. These are the people who are very much engaged in the social part of the game and the player interactions. People who want to do quests and engage in pre-made content are there for entertainment.
And they are both very differnet experiences.
Well said, but would you translate that into being "there is a larger market of people who are casual compared to hardcore"?
Yeah and that sandbox will certainly not be developed by a AAA dev team. It will be a small upstart like CCP and the game will suck at first and grow over the years. It's what I as a sandbox mmo player have come to expect from Indy sandbox devs. I have faith that we will get an amazing sandbox sooner or later but I would be insane if I said a AAA dev team would do it . To some of the other posters, it's impossible to be a "hero" in a sandbox game. The most you could hope for is being a uncle Owen banding together with other uncle Owens working toward a common goal. That's not heroism, its life. And the masses won't pay for that.
in the new age of entertainment a sandbox mmo doesn't sound half bad
the only problem is timing
i'm not going to get up in the middle of the night because some kids decided to raid my guilds fort at 3am
maybe THIS is why they won't succeed.
Realism for the sake if realism is a problem many sandbox mmos have. Sandbox games put in hard coded rulesets within rule sets to combat that overtime... But that's best left for another thread.
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by Rockgod99 I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
You must never have ever played a sandbox game to think that that is even how sandbox games are.
Here is the correct answer: Because no company has gotten it right yet and the big names don't wanna take the chance. The best mmo and top selling mmo of all time will be a sandbox mmo. All we have to do is wait until the right person gets told how to make a sandbox properly, and makes it.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Too bad this logic is lost to him.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Too bad this logic is lost to him.
Yes, but it's not an illusion.
If you effect the way other people play, where's the illusion?
Axehilt, I believe you play EVE right? Go into 0.0 space that isn't owned by blues. There is no illusion, you'll die if you stay there long enough, without a question. You cannot dock at their stations and if your group of people wanted to, you could take that 0.0 space and dock at their stations, build JBs in their spots, etc. etc.
It's not illusion when you directly effect other people's gameplay by actions you take in the game. I'm not talking about annoying other players, because in EVE those are actual game mechanics you're using to effect the other person's gameplay. Those who you annoy in a game like WoW or any other game that's the same with a different name, those people can log off and you'll forget about them, the person who's annoying will eventually go away. Log off in the wrong 0.0 and you're still in the same danger as when you log back on.
Unless you consider the whole game itself an illusion, on some off the planet Plato Philosophical type crap. lol
.... the main reason, there is no AAA super advertised sandbox mmo out there, shit there is hardly any out there to begin with... that why it doesn't appeal to the masses.
.... the main reason, there is no AAA super advertised sandbox mmo out there, shit there is hardly any out there to begin with... that why it doesn't appeal to the masses.
I'm going to have to agree with this. There would be more people who would play the games, if there was at least one extremely extremely high quality AAA game out there wasn't highly niche like EVE.
No, it wouldn't appeal to everyone. But, WoW doesn't appeal to everyone either.
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Too bad this logic is lost to him.
Yes, but it's not an illusion.
If you effect the way other people play, where's the illusion?
Axehilt, I believe you play EVE right? Go into 0.0 space that isn't owned by blues. There is no illusion, you'll die if you stay there long enough, without a question. You cannot dock at their stations and if your group of people wanted to, you could take that 0.0 space and dock at their stations, build JBs in their spots, etc. etc.
It's not illusion when you directly effect other people's gameplay by actions you take in the game. I'm not talking about annoying other players, because in EVE those are actual game mechanics you're using to effect the other person's gameplay. Those who you annoy in a game like WoW or any other game that's the same with a different name, those people can log off and you'll forget about them, the person who's annoying will eventually go away. Log off in the wrong 0.0 and you're still in the same danger as when you log back on.
Unless you consider the whole game itself an illusion, on some off the planet Plato Philosophical type crap. lol
territorial battlegrounds are an illusion as well. Maybe it can last a little longer because there is not a reset timer, but the same thing could be said about Aion's abyss forts or non-battleground PvP targets in Outland. They both stay captured unless otherwise liberated.
It's all illusions put in place to make it seem like you did something great, but in reality it's like a game of tug-of-war.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
.... the main reason, there is no AAA super advertised sandbox mmo out there, shit there is hardly any out there to begin with... that why it doesn't appeal to the masses.
Agreed. A well made fun game will sell, no matter if it is sandbox, themepark or a mix between those.
Crappy indie games with bad coding will never appeal to the masses, if someone competent makes one it will sell.
Hopefully will World of darkness online change all that.
territorial battlegrounds are an illusion as well. Maybe it can last a little longer because there is not a reset timer, but the same thing could be said about Aion's abyss forts or non-battleground PvP targets in Outland. They both stay captured unless otherwise liberated.
It's all illusions put in place to make it seem like you did something great, but in reality it's like a game of tug-of-war.
I know this is obvious to most of us old timers but I figured i'd dash the dreams of the newbies that think a AAA sandbox will ever release. People want to be a hero in a mmorpg, in a sandbox your this insignificant little nothing skilling up to be a even better nothing. Kind of like real life. Not many will pay for that type of simulation... Now you know.
Heh, you mean all want to be hero and not Uncle Own, eh? Well, sometimes it seems so, but still there are many who complain about TOR because they DON'T want to be the hero... at least not all the time. Myself included.
One of my SWG chars was Entertainer, part of a band, and loved it.
I still think this Theme Park VS Sandbox is misleading, it implies that a MMO can only be either, which I just don't share. A good and triple AAA MMO could have heroic story and sandbox elements, they just have to WANT to make it. That is why I am so angry at Bioware. If any IP deserves sandox elements, it's Star Wars. They had this one big chance to make a MMO for many flavours, adding story AND still leaving sandbox elements, like non combat classes, plethora of races, big open world... but they borked it! They goddamn borked it. Bah...
I just can't give up hoping someone will make a AAA MMO with both story and sandbox. I don't see whats so difficult about it, but companies just suffer from a mind block.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
It depends on the player experiencing the illusion, especially if he or she has become jaded by it. I'd much rather prefer the reality of being an influential entity in a sandbox environment than being heralded by NPCs for "saving the world" in a PvE themepark.
Books aren't interactive mediums, let alone massively multiplayer.
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
GOLDEN WORDS!
If only those were nailed on every MMO developer studios door!
But it is not such a contradiction to the OP, as it looks. I guess those are two different definitions. In the essence your critique and the OPs isn't far away, methinks.
Can someone please forward this to Mr.Important-Daniel-Erickson-knows-all-what-gamers-want? Thx.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Sorry, but that is a logic flaw.
You mix up to different levels of realism, and thus make Sroek's statement seem false, but it is your correlation which is illogical.
Meta-Level: All Games are illusions.
Sub-Level: Measure of believability via diversity and individual impact as opposed to railroading.
These two are different spheres, and only by ignoring them you can make this statement, that "the illusion matters". Sorry, but it still is a flaw in the logic to argue like that.
Besides, when I want to read a book... I READ a book. I mean, if belivability is so easy created for you, nice for you. But when everyone is hero, no one is. When every action is heroic, none is. It just creates a deflation as with anything that is there too much, it loses it's value. Heroic acts need the contrast, the arbitrary, the average, just as identity need uniqueness. If everyone has the same background and story, you are nobody. You are just a number. You are just one more Jedi whose parents were killed, whose mentor dies, one more Smuggler with a Wookiee companion, one more stereotype. You adapt to the roles set out, and not make roles yourself. It's a BIG difference. One is illusionary choice, because it lives from the ONE SIMPLE fact that you don't see the other Jedi doing their same story. Games with real freedom where you choice matters do not need such artificial seperation to support the make belief, because the substance itself creates the identity, not some present single player experience.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
A sandbox mmo is the way too go. Theres been alot of problems with players which happens over time. Sandbox mmo's are meant too give a player the freedom too experince the game fully not like linear mmo's. Some game companies are great at making some and some game companies do a poor job at creating a sandbox game.
But from time too time when the first sand box mmo came out the players which became vets put themselves iinto the sandbox game. Then you had casual players and the NOW gamer and both disliked the sandbox because they didn't take the time too learn all the fuctions of a sandbox mmo and casual players fell behind.
A sandbox games allows for much more freedom in choosing in what direction you want too play the game and is player driven. This provides a virtual environment in which the player may be free to do whatever they like within the confines of this universe. Events in the world are player driven and there is little input from the original designers.
Linear games also known as themeparks games gives the player an existing box world to interact with, with goals and achievements laid out and content added by the original designers.
Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
What a foolish statement. It's actually quite the opposite.
In a non-sandbox game, the "hero" concept is merely illusory, you're just another faceless avatar identical to every other faceless avatar in the game with no true ability to impact the game on any tangible level at all. You're just on a rollercoaster ride.
Whereas in a sandbox game, you are free to affect the environment around you, be it through socio-political influence or other means. Take EVE Online for example, there are infamous players who are leaders of alliances or elaborate heist experts because they've earned their notoriety.
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
Sorry, but that is a logic flaw.
You mix up to different levels of realism, and thus make Sroek's statement seem false, but it is your correlation which is illogical.
Meta-Level: All Games are illusions.
Sub-Level: Measure of believability via diversity and individual impact as opposed to railroading.
These two are different spheres, and only by ignoring them you can make this statement, that "the illusion matters". Sorry, but it still is a flaw in the logic to argue like that.
Besides, when I want to read a book... I READ a book. I mean, if belivability is so easy created for you, nice for you. But when everyone is hero, no one is. When every action is heroic, none is. It just creates a deflation as with anything that is there too much, it loses it's value. Heroic acts need the contrast, the arbitrary, the average, just as identity need uniqueness. If everyone has the same background and story, you are nobody. You are just a number. You are just one more Jedi whose parents were killed, whose mentor dies, one more Smuggler with a Wookiee companion, one more stereotype. You adapt to the roles set out, and not make roles yourself. It's a BIG difference. One is illusionary choice, because it lives from the ONE SIMPLE fact that you don't see the other Jedi doing their same story. Games with real freedom where you choice matters do not need such artificial seperation to support the make belief, because the substance itself creates the identity, not some present single player experience.
I don't understand the logic. A book is a single player experience. It has a beginning, middle, and an end. There is not deviation.
I also don't understand why players can only imagine what's in front of them. Take SWTOR for example, do the story and level your toon, but RP that toon however you want. Why feel so restricted by the story that Bioware is creating?
My 2 cents, I don't want to feel average. I don't care if thousands of other players are going through the same story and classes. I care about my experiences in playing only. That's why I play. If I play with friends its fun, if I play solo, its fun. But during that short time I want to feel like I'm doing something heroic.
I could care less about chopping down trees or diging in the dirt. I want bust some skulls and look cool doing it because it is something I cannot do in real life. If I wanted complexity I would just keep working my real job as I get enough of that working with developers, managers, system engineers, testers, and users.
In the end it boils down to each person's opinion in what they find fun and no one should be forced to play something they don't want to. If you don't like the game or don't like what a future game will be then don't bother with it. The chances of it completely flipping it's design are close to nil.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.
Comments
The closest I personally came to playing a samebox game was UO. It's not about being a hero, it's not about lofty ambitions to rule over anything. It's about carving out a place in the world and being able to lose yourself in it for a while. If you hit a wall, it won't be long because tools are in place to over come it. Most mmos looking to label themselves sandbox games are trying too hard to look into petty things.
I've played EvE and it's NOT sandbox. I was there for the beta and I can tell you. I would never consider a cold, lifeless void like EvE a sandbox. I cannot connect with something so inorganic. Your skills are set it and forget it, your shell is interchangable and frequently replaced. It holds no real value for the players themselves and there for can never form a true bond between user and player. I want to see my character interact with his environment. I want to show a reflection of my personality through my character's physical appearance as well as his mental persona. No, EvE is a player-driven, graphically enhanced, online free market experience with PvP added so players can "vent out" their frustrations from time to time. Astroids + chat room + AH = EvE.
The next true sandbox mmo will have PvP, but not revolve around it.
It will have PvE but not depend on it.
It will have combat as 1 of 2 tools used to progress your avatar.
It will not hinder playing alone and will not discourage playing with friends.
It will allow the freedom to build artifical things, but not organic.
That day won't come for a long, long time. But then again I'm not actually waiting for that day.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Well said, but would you translate that into being "there is a larger market of people who are casual compared to hardcore"?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
in the new age of entertainment a sandbox mmo doesn't sound half bad
the only problem is timing
i'm not going to get up in the middle of the night because some kids decided to raid my guilds fort at 3am
maybe THIS is why they won't succeed.
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
BUT if they made the world so huge that it would take a long time to even find your fort.. that might be interesting
then again it would take forever to find anyone/someone to kill when YOU are logged on
/eh
Just when you think you have all the answers, I change the questions.
To some of the other posters, it's impossible to be a "hero" in a sandbox game. The most you could hope for is being a uncle Owen banding together with other uncle Owens working toward a common goal. That's not heroism, its life. And the masses won't pay for that.
Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Realism for the sake if realism is a problem many sandbox mmos have. Sandbox games put in hard coded rulesets within rule sets to combat that overtime... But that's best left for another thread.Playing: Rift, LotRO
Waiting on: GW2, BP
Yes, it's an illusion -- and the illusion matters.
A good fiction book is just as much an illusion, yet the experience of reading it (and the emotions invoked) is real. And that experience will be improved if it's a really good fiction book -- just like a really good game where you're the "hero". So the illusion matters.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You must never have ever played a sandbox game to think that that is even how sandbox games are.
Here is the correct answer: Because no company has gotten it right yet and the big names don't wanna take the chance. The best mmo and top selling mmo of all time will be a sandbox mmo. All we have to do is wait until the right person gets told how to make a sandbox properly, and makes it.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
Too bad this logic is lost to him.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Yes, but it's not an illusion.
If you effect the way other people play, where's the illusion?
Axehilt, I believe you play EVE right? Go into 0.0 space that isn't owned by blues. There is no illusion, you'll die if you stay there long enough, without a question. You cannot dock at their stations and if your group of people wanted to, you could take that 0.0 space and dock at their stations, build JBs in their spots, etc. etc.
It's not illusion when you directly effect other people's gameplay by actions you take in the game. I'm not talking about annoying other players, because in EVE those are actual game mechanics you're using to effect the other person's gameplay. Those who you annoy in a game like WoW or any other game that's the same with a different name, those people can log off and you'll forget about them, the person who's annoying will eventually go away. Log off in the wrong 0.0 and you're still in the same danger as when you log back on.
Unless you consider the whole game itself an illusion, on some off the planet Plato Philosophical type crap. lol
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
.... the main reason, there is no AAA super advertised sandbox mmo out there, shit there is hardly any out there to begin with... that why it doesn't appeal to the masses.
I'm going to have to agree with this. There would be more people who would play the games, if there was at least one extremely extremely high quality AAA game out there wasn't highly niche like EVE.
No, it wouldn't appeal to everyone. But, WoW doesn't appeal to everyone either.
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
territorial battlegrounds are an illusion as well. Maybe it can last a little longer because there is not a reset timer, but the same thing could be said about Aion's abyss forts or non-battleground PvP targets in Outland. They both stay captured unless otherwise liberated.
It's all illusions put in place to make it seem like you did something great, but in reality it's like a game of tug-of-war.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Agreed. A well made fun game will sell, no matter if it is sandbox, themepark or a mix between those.
Crappy indie games with bad coding will never appeal to the masses, if someone competent makes one it will sell.
Hopefully will World of darkness online change all that.
Well...
If.......
.......
Good answer.
Like Trading Card Games? Click Here.
Sounds like Final Fantasy XIV to me *cough*, that is when PvP is added.
Intel Core i7 2600k 4.8ghz
Asus P8P67 Pro
8GB Corsair 1600 DDR3
Diamond Radeon 7970 3GB
3x Dell U2412M 6048x1200
2x 1TB Samsung Spinpoint F3 [Raid 0]
Windows 7 Ultimate x64
Heh, you mean all want to be hero and not Uncle Own, eh? Well, sometimes it seems so, but still there are many who complain about TOR because they DON'T want to be the hero... at least not all the time. Myself included.
One of my SWG chars was Entertainer, part of a band, and loved it.
I still think this Theme Park VS Sandbox is misleading, it implies that a MMO can only be either, which I just don't share. A good and triple AAA MMO could have heroic story and sandbox elements, they just have to WANT to make it. That is why I am so angry at Bioware. If any IP deserves sandox elements, it's Star Wars. They had this one big chance to make a MMO for many flavours, adding story AND still leaving sandbox elements, like non combat classes, plethora of races, big open world... but they borked it! They goddamn borked it. Bah...
I just can't give up hoping someone will make a AAA MMO with both story and sandbox. I don't see whats so difficult about it, but companies just suffer from a mind block.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
It depends on the player experiencing the illusion, especially if he or she has become jaded by it. I'd much rather prefer the reality of being an influential entity in a sandbox environment than being heralded by NPCs for "saving the world" in a PvE themepark.
Books aren't interactive mediums, let alone massively multiplayer.
GOLDEN WORDS!
If only those were nailed on every MMO developer studios door!
But it is not such a contradiction to the OP, as it looks. I guess those are two different definitions. In the essence your critique and the OPs isn't far away, methinks.
Can someone please forward this to Mr.Important-Daniel-Erickson-knows-all-what-gamers-want? Thx.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Sorry, but that is a logic flaw.
You mix up to different levels of realism, and thus make Sroek's statement seem false, but it is your correlation which is illogical.
Meta-Level: All Games are illusions.
Sub-Level: Measure of believability via diversity and individual impact as opposed to railroading.
These two are different spheres, and only by ignoring them you can make this statement, that "the illusion matters". Sorry, but it still is a flaw in the logic to argue like that.
Besides, when I want to read a book... I READ a book. I mean, if belivability is so easy created for you, nice for you. But when everyone is hero, no one is. When every action is heroic, none is. It just creates a deflation as with anything that is there too much, it loses it's value. Heroic acts need the contrast, the arbitrary, the average, just as identity need uniqueness. If everyone has the same background and story, you are nobody. You are just a number. You are just one more Jedi whose parents were killed, whose mentor dies, one more Smuggler with a Wookiee companion, one more stereotype. You adapt to the roles set out, and not make roles yourself. It's a BIG difference. One is illusionary choice, because it lives from the ONE SIMPLE fact that you don't see the other Jedi doing their same story. Games with real freedom where you choice matters do not need such artificial seperation to support the make belief, because the substance itself creates the identity, not some present single player experience.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
A sandbox mmo is the way too go. Theres been alot of problems with players which happens over time. Sandbox mmo's are meant too give a player the freedom too experince the game fully not like linear mmo's. Some game companies are great at making some and some game companies do a poor job at creating a sandbox game.
But from time too time when the first sand box mmo came out the players which became vets put themselves iinto the sandbox game. Then you had casual players and the NOW gamer and both disliked the sandbox because they didn't take the time too learn all the fuctions of a sandbox mmo and casual players fell behind.
A sandbox games allows for much more freedom in choosing in what direction you want too play the game and is player driven. This provides a virtual environment in which the player may be free to do whatever they like within the confines of this universe. Events in the world are player driven and there is little input from the original designers.
Linear games also known as themeparks games gives the player an existing box world to interact with, with goals and achievements laid out and content added by the original designers.
Sandboxes die because of lack of content..whether give by the game designer or by tools given to the player. In the end all turn to being as rinse and repeat as a theme park game.
I don't understand the logic. A book is a single player experience. It has a beginning, middle, and an end. There is not deviation.
I also don't understand why players can only imagine what's in front of them. Take SWTOR for example, do the story and level your toon, but RP that toon however you want. Why feel so restricted by the story that Bioware is creating?
My 2 cents, I don't want to feel average. I don't care if thousands of other players are going through the same story and classes. I care about my experiences in playing only. That's why I play. If I play with friends its fun, if I play solo, its fun. But during that short time I want to feel like I'm doing something heroic.
I could care less about chopping down trees or diging in the dirt. I want bust some skulls and look cool doing it because it is something I cannot do in real life. If I wanted complexity I would just keep working my real job as I get enough of that working with developers, managers, system engineers, testers, and users.
In the end it boils down to each person's opinion in what they find fun and no one should be forced to play something they don't want to. If you don't like the game or don't like what a future game will be then don't bother with it. The chances of it completely flipping it's design are close to nil.
"If you're going to act like a noob, I'll treat you like one." -Caskio
Adventurers wear fancy pants!!!
How is this any different to every theme park mmo available?
Untrue. Sandbox MMOs have limitless content as a result of player-driven/created dynamics. In a traditional MMO, the content is only limited to how many quests, dungeons and levels have been hard-coded into the game - it's streamlined, linear and rigid.