Originally posted by Baikal Take into consideration that I've been here 6 years, I post occasionally, and read frequently, but I'll respond with some questions. I'm posting that preface since I dont want anyone to think I'm insulting them after reading my point of view, and I'd hope they realize that if I'm insuling them, I'm saying the exact same thing of myself! 1) Who really posts on these forums?
2) Do the posters represent the core MMO base, or the vocal minority of players?
3) If we are the vocal minority, then arent we looking for more niche games as opposed to mainstream games?
From my point of view, I think most folks here are disenfranchised with the MMO genre in general, or have gaps between games they truly enjoy. I think the fact that most folks here dislike WoW makes us believe that WoW should not be, what 11 million strong? That somehow we are right, and it's a bad game. Thing is, I'd wager most folks who play MMO's dont know about this site, and could care less what our opinions are. They are going to play what they like. Hey, you could go out for a gourmet hamburger, but there are millions who go to McDonald's. Their reasons vary, maybe they like it, maybe they only have a certain amount of time to eat, or it is convenient. I apply that reasoning to the MMO market. In years of playing, I've found myself playing with people I met on forums and such, but it never fails to astound me how many people dont, or wont, and really, what a minority I am in. Does it matter if this site is negative? In the grand scheme of things, I dont think so, because I dont think that the core audience Bioware is hoping to attract is here. If you want Star Wars you will give it a whirl no matter what. Its like pre-release forums, those are the hardest of the hardcore folks about a game, most of the rest of the potential population doesnt give a damn until they get a chance to play for themselves.
Baikal, The dynamic is really no different then any hobbiest forum. What percentage of sports fan's post on sports forum's? What percentage of hunters/fishermen post on hunting & fishing sites? What percentage of people who enjoy going out to eat post on food forums? The reality is that for the vast majority of people who enjoy ANY activity....they might chat about it once in awhile with freinds and family....maybe pickup a magizine on it once in a blue moon but they usualy won't actively seek out a forum to discuss it on a regular basis. However, that doesn't mean that the people who do that are somehow unrepresentitive of the larger population for the hobby in anything other then thier passion for the hobby. Guys who like steak and post about it on food forums pretty much enjoy the same things about steak that the other 95% of the population who enjoy eating out do......They might be a little less forgiving of mistakes but that's about it. As evidence, I'd like to offer the observation that most of the MMO's that got roundly trashed here....ended up doing very badly with the general public as well (and for largely the same reasons). Most of the games that do reasonably well here...also have done reasonably well with the general public. They'll get more criticism from us then they will from the average player...simply because we tend to pick up on the details a bit more. So we may something like "Pretty good game but I think X,Y,Z are mistakes.... where the average gamer will simply say ... Good Game." Note, I think you are partialy right in that we are unrepresentitive of the target audiance for this game...simply because we are MMO fans...not specificaly BIOWARE fans (though I do own and like thier SPRPG's).... and they've stated that half of the base that they are going for are BIOWARE fans. It remains to be seen whether the fans will like the same sort of things in an MMO that they do in an SPRPG.....or even how many will be willing to try out an MMO at all.....but those are the sort of risks any company faces when trying to translate a popular product to a different medium. P.S. For the record...played WOW for 1.5 years....enjoyed my time there. Really nothing bad to say about that game. Think it deserves most of the success it's earned. Would probably be willing to play it again, if I was in the right mood...and had plenty of time. That said I ALSO like MMO's that are very different from WOW. Only thing I dislike about the INDUSTRY is that too many companies are trying to follow the WOW formula thinking that will net them WOW level success...or worse yet.... shoe-horn little bits and pieces of WOW formula into thier own designs which are entirely different then WOW. That's a problem with the execs who run many of these companies....thinking they can cut the smile off the Mona Lisa...paste it onto a Monet (or more often Dogs Playing Poker) and somehow end up with a good piece of Art. But that's a different rant.
Awesome response!
What I come back to, is the "most games" remark, and I do agree. If folks here think a game is junk, then usually it ends up not doing all that well, as if here we are an accurate barometer for the genre. Take a deep breath though, and consider World of Warcraft. That game is the exception to rule, and the problem is that it is the 800-lb gorilla in the room at the moment. I'm not sure how to figure it, but most site's you visit for gamers WoW takes a pretty big bashing. That being said, it is by far the biggest game out there. That's my McDonalds analogy, most people think it is junk, but they sell more burgers than anyone, and it is for a variety of reasons.
I think that based on the IP, the budget, and the development house, The Old Republic has a pretty good shot of joining WoW in that "exception rather than the norm" rule about how it is perceived. I think that it could get bashed right and left on forums, but end up with a huge audience. Granted it has to do a few things right, like release smoothly and have a large amount of polish. If it can get thru the first 6 months or so that way, it can be that other anamoly. Call it Burger King to WoW's McDonalds?
Totally agree about the dynamic here and on other hobby forums, thats a great point. I guess the reason I said what I did, is that sometimes here I definitely see people here pumped up about the importance, or the relavence, or that they can confidently speak for entire communities. Maybe sometimes we can, but it does go back to that 800-lb gorilla, love it or hate it, its commercial popularity is off the charts when compared to the genre. To me, most MMO-fan forums dont reflect the popularity of WoW.
Finally, I agree with what you said about the industry. Just because WoW is a commercial empire doesnt mean to me that I like everything about it. I'd like to have some choices, see some more niche's filled and give players a chance to do something different. Instead of refining a tried and true formula, pioneer something entirely new. The disenfranchised niche that many of us here belong to, thats exactly what we are looking for. (Maybe another reason the popularity of TOR is where it is on these forums?)
Cheers man, good thoughts, definitely made me think!
dynamic is really no different then any hobbiest forum. What percentage of sports fan's post on sports forum's? What percentage of hunters/fishermen post on hunting & fishing sites? What percentage of people who enjoy going out to eat post on food forums?
The reality is that for the vast majority of people who enjoy ANY activity.
EXACTLY!!!!!
Listen to Sports Radio or any talk show...this is the same type of "fanaticism" people exhibit for their favorite sports team or whatever their current hobby is (hunting, fishing, golf, airplanes, RC, stamping, etc). We're not the 1st generation of fanatics and we will most certainly not be the last.
I find the negativity encouraging because I have enjoyed the games that have the most haters on this site. I now try the games with the most negativity as potential fun times.
I find the negativity encouraging because I have enjoyed the games that have the most haters on this site. I now try the games with the most negativity as potential fun times.
Nice to meet you. I am exactly the same. More the people hate games here more i enjoy them like AOC, WAR, WOW and now FFXIV. The more the people praise a game i find them generally boring like Vanguard, Ryzom etc.
I find the negativity encouraging because I have enjoyed the games that have the most haters on this site. I now try the games with the most negativity as potential fun times.
Nice to meet you. I am exactly the same. More the people hate games here more i enjoy them like AOC, WAR, WOW and now FFXIV. The more the people praise a game i find them generally boring like Vanguard, Ryzom etc.
This forum is populated to a large degree with people who enjoy sandbox games only. Even some of the writers fit that bill. As a result, you will find massive negativity for pretty much any non-sandbox game.
Actually... I take that back. You will find negativity for EVERY game because the sandbox folks don't seem to like any of the new games that are released for their niche.
I agree with you guys though. The more people on this forum complain about games, the more I tend to like them. Go figure.
Take into consideration that I've been here 6 years, I post occasionally, and read frequently, but I'll respond with some questions. I'm posting that preface since I dont want anyone to think I'm insulting them after reading my point of view, and I'd hope they realize that if I'm insuling them, I'm saying the exact same thing of myself!
1) Who really posts on these forums?
2) Do the posters represent the core MMO base, or the vocal minority of players?
3) If we are the vocal minority, then arent we looking for more niche games as opposed to mainstream games?
From my point of view, I think most folks here are disenfranchised with the MMO genre in general, or have gaps between games they truly enjoy. I think the fact that most folks here dislike WoW makes us believe that WoW should not be, what 11 million strong? That somehow we are right, and it's a bad game.
Thing is, I'd wager most folks who play MMO's dont know about this site, and could care less what our opinions are. They are going to play what they like. Hey, you could go out for a gourmet hamburger, but there are millions who go to McDonald's. Their reasons vary, maybe they like it, maybe they only have a certain amount of time to eat, or it is convenient. I apply that reasoning to the MMO market.
In years of playing, I've found myself playing with people I met on forums and such, but it never fails to astound me how many people dont, or wont, and really, what a minority I am in.
Does it matter if this site is negative? In the grand scheme of things, I dont think so, because I dont think that the core audience Bioware is hoping to attract is here. If you want Star Wars you will give it a whirl no matter what. Its like pre-release forums, those are the hardest of the hardcore folks about a game, most of the rest of the potential population doesnt give a damn until they get a chance to play for themselves.
Baikal,
The dynamic is really no different then any hobbiest forum. What percentage of sports fan's post on sports forum's? What percentage of hunters/fishermen post on hunting & fishing sites? What percentage of people who enjoy going out to eat post on food forums?
The reality is that for the vast majority of people who enjoy ANY activity....they might chat about it once in awhile with freinds and family....maybe pickup a magizine on it once in a blue moon but they usualy won't actively seek out a forum to discuss it on a regular basis. However, that doesn't mean that the people who do that are somehow unrepresentitive of the larger population for the hobby in anything other then thier passion for the hobby.
Guys who like steak and post about it on food forums pretty much enjoy the same things about steak that the other 95% of the population who enjoy eating out do......They might be a little less forgiving of mistakes but that's about it.
As evidence, I'd like to offer the observation that most of the MMO's that got roundly trashed here....ended up doing very badly with the general public as well (and for largely the same reasons). Most of the games that do reasonably well here...also have done reasonably well with the general public. They'll get more criticism from us then they will from the average player...simply because we tend to pick up on the details a bit more. So we may something like "Pretty good game but I think X,Y,Z are mistakes.... where the average gamer will simply say ... Good Game."
Note, I think you are partialy right in that we are unrepresentitive of the target audiance for this game...simply because we are MMO fans...not specificaly BIOWARE fans (though I do own and like thier SPRPG's).... and they've stated that half of the base that they are going for are BIOWARE fans. It remains to be seen whether the fans will like the same sort of things in an MMO that they do in an SPRPG.....or even how many will be willing to try out an MMO at all.....but those are the sort of risks any company faces when trying to translate a popular product to a different medium.
P.S. For the record...played WOW for 1.5 years....enjoyed my time there. Really nothing bad to say about that game. Think it deserves most of the success it's earned. Would probably be willing to play it again, if I was in the right mood...and had plenty of time. That said I ALSO like MMO's that are very different from WOW. Only thing I dislike about the INDUSTRY is that too many companies are trying to follow the WOW formula thinking that will net them WOW level success...or worse yet.... shoe-horn little bits and pieces of WOW formula into thier own designs which are entirely different then WOW. That's a problem with the execs who run many of these companies....thinking they can cut the smile off the Mona Lisa...paste it onto a Monet (or more often Dogs Playing Poker) and somehow end up with a good piece of Art. But that's a different rant.
Awesome response!
What I come back to, is the "most games" remark, and I do agree. If folks here think a game is junk, then usually it ends up not doing all that well, as if here we are an accurate barometer for the genre. Take a deep breath though, and consider World of Warcraft. That game is the exception to rule, and the problem is that it is the 800-lb gorilla in the room at the moment. I'm not sure how to figure it, but most site's you visit for gamers WoW takes a pretty big bashing. That being said, it is by far the biggest game out there. That's my McDonalds analogy, most people think it is junk, but they sell more burgers than anyone, and it is for a variety of reasons.
I think that based on the IP, the budget, and the development house, The Old Republic has a pretty good shot of joining WoW in that "exception rather than the norm" rule about how it is perceived. I think that it could get bashed right and left on forums, but end up with a huge audience. Granted it has to do a few things right, like release smoothly and have a large amount of polish. If it can get thru the first 6 months or so that way, it can be that other anamoly. Call it Burger King to WoW's McDonalds?
Totally agree about the dynamic here and on other hobby forums, thats a great point. I guess the reason I said what I did, is that sometimes here I definitely see people here pumped up about the importance, or the relavence, or that they can confidently speak for entire communities. Maybe sometimes we can, but it does go back to that 800-lb gorilla, love it or hate it, its commercial popularity is off the charts when compared to the genre. To me, most MMO-fan forums dont reflect the popularity of WoW.
Finally, I agree with what you said about the industry. Just because WoW is a commercial empire doesnt mean to me that I like everything about it. I'd like to have some choices, see some more niche's filled and give players a chance to do something different. Instead of refining a tried and true formula, pioneer something entirely new. The disenfranchised niche that many of us here belong to, thats exactly what we are looking for. (Maybe another reason the popularity of TOR is where it is on these forums?)
Cheers man, good thoughts, definitely made me think!
Well thank you back......
The real question I have about TOR is...will it work as an MMO? Alot of the stuff they are emphasing when they talk (full voice acting, companions, etc) is stuff that would make me interested in picking up a single-player game.....plunk down $50 for the box.....play through it once by myself....and be done with it after a month or two...with the game collecting dust on the shelves.
There is nothing that they've talked about that makes ME say...... Yeah...I want to be doing this a couple times a week for the next 2 years with my buddies....and I'm willing to pay every month to do so.
Maybe it's there...but I'm just not seeing it. I mean, voice-acting is a nice production value....but after hearing the voice actor say "You don't know the power of the Sith." for the first 30 times.... I think the thrill is pretty much gone.... not anything there which is going to keep me tuning in for the next 2 years to hear him repeat it over and over again.
Well... they talked about a lot of stuff, huge worlds, lots and lots to explore, class customisation, I don't know what exactly you're looking for but here's a good compilation of the info released so far: compilation thread.
There's a hell of a lot more info to be found besides story or companions, although it's true that we still have to learn in detail about the other endgame aspects, if and how the 'world changing' World Arcs and Battlegrounds work, what is the twist in crafting in SW:TOR, and what this special thing at endgame they had in mind that they were hinting at.
If you want to know how SW:TOR plays and feels in the lower levels, then I recommend you to take a look at this thread, best demo review so far, where two demo players give a thorough report of their impressions and experiences when they played SW:TOR.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Well... they talked about a lot of stuff, huge worlds, lots and lots to explore, class customisation, I don't know what exactly you're looking for but here's a good compilation of the info released so far: compilation thread.
There's a hell of a lot more info to be found besides story or companions, although it's true that we still have to learn in detail about the other endgame aspects, if and how the 'world changing' World Arcs and Battlegrounds work, what is the twist in crafting in SW:TOR, and what this special thing at endgame they had in mind that they were hinting at.
If you want to know how SW:TOR plays and feels in the lower levels, then I recommend you to take a look at this thread, best demo review so far, where two demo players give a thorough report of their impressions and experiences when they played SW:TOR.
BioWare is not dumb. They are waiting until Cata is released so blizzard won't be able to steal anything. After Blizz launches Cata there will begin an explosion of information from BioWare. Partially to distract people from Cata and partially to start the launch hype.
Wait till you see the commercials, toys, media blowouts, facebook contests, website ads, etc. The launch of SW:TOR will be bigger than any MMORPG that came before it. More people will start to ask "What is this MMORPG thing? Its Star Wars and looks pretty neat". I also fully expect at least 1 (if not 2) more trailer from Blur studios to wow people during the superbowl.
After all of the hullabaloo then we will get to find out if it is actually good. I hope it is .
I also fully expect at least 1 (if not 2) more trailer from Blur studios to wow people during the superbowl.
NooooooooooooooooOOOOo!!!! That would be the BIGGEST waste of money EVER by a gaming company. Save the 25million that would probably cost and invest it into a team dedicated to creating a free roaming space portion of the game...or expanding crafting...or other classes...or anything!!!
I am very much looking forward to this game and continue to be cautiously optimistic. Each build they release shows improvement in the areas I was concerned about and they still have a lot of time. My first MMO was WOW followed by EQ2, Vanguard, Warhammer, LOTRO, Age of Conan, Aion, and Allods. I also just started beta testing Gods and Heroes (pretty world in my first 5 minutes :-). I never played SWG and quite frankly since I never heard of it until the trolling on these forums, I'm assuming it wasn't that successful in comparision to WOW and other smaller sub games such as LOTRO or EQ2 (I could be wrong).
Anyway, it seems to me that in my relatively short online gaming experience compared to some of you (I started in 2004 or so), that several games with very high hype and hope similar to what Guild Wars 2 has now barely lived up to their potential or expectations once the real reviews rolled in and the 3-4 month time frame had passed. I would say this about Vanguard, Aion, AOC (which has improved), and Warhammer (which I loved the first 2-3 months).
The Old Republic at least on these forums has more trolling then I can remember then the games I listed above so far before release (again, I could be wrong....Im just basing it on my general memory and feeling when I would pop in and out of the forums). It appears that Bioware has released very little information in comparision to their 150M budget. Keeping the hype lower and all of this trolling may actually help the game when they finally release a build that everyone can really dive into a really feel the world around them. I say keep trolling (including the site writers) because I think in the long run people here may be pleasantly surprised since the expectations and hype continue to be reset by the trolling itself. I actually think GW2 may suffer a similar fate because of the hype, though I'm hoping I'm wrong because I want to play that game in between this game when I just want to play something else that doesn't require a huge investment of time.
So you say: because MMORPG forum posters are dumb trolls, when they hate a MMO it must be good? Did I get that right? Sounds like a strange way to conclude, because if this were so, all MMORGPs should be great, since almost all were more or less flamed here. So by your logic we live in MMO wonderland where everything is happy happy perfect.
A troll is someone who has no own opinion whatsoever. He just posts things for the reason to enjoy the anger of others. Think about this definition before calling an entire forum a gathering of trolls. (Besides: if so, why are you here?)
Some how TONS of posts are off topic..[surprised].
I do not think negatiity is a big deal,now a days the deal breaker is the Beta test,this is when a game is suppose to be 99.9% finished,people get a feel for what the developer is really going to be selling the players.I mean honestly,if you had NOTHING but negative thoughts about a game,then you enter a beta test and find it to be amazing,what is going to matter more?Obvious answer is the amazing game will matter more and you won't hestitate to tell others and buy a subscription ASAP.
I don't think a game has to even hit the amazing status,but at least show us that everything has a purpose in the design and that it was well thought out.Then give us several options for game play and lots of things to do ,outside of boring quests.So bottom line is that chit chat means nothing when compared to what is delivered,negative talk can go either way ,it can escalate or totally dissppear depending on the game itself.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
I never played SWG and quite frankly since I never heard of it until the trolling on these forums, I'm assuming it wasn't that successful in comparision to WOW and other smaller sub games such as LOTRO or EQ2 (I could be wrong).
Star Wars Galaxies was pretty successful in it's heyday, but it didn't last long (only a few years), Sony Online Entertainment made some efforts to try and make it much bigger, and well you know the rest from there. I remember SWG's active subscriptions being over 300,000, which was pretty good at the time, and sold product being well over 1 million. I think only EQ, FF and Linage had more subscriptions for a time. When WoW came out, it quickly passed each of those and never looked back. EQ2 peaked above SWG for a short time after it's release, but overtime SWG had a larger subscription base than EQ2 (I'm not sure about the last couple of years up until today though).
I played SWG, but I really don't get that worked-up about it, I'm glad I left it to play other MMOs whether it got nerfed or otherwise. I think there were a lot of people at that time that had never played a MMO before, and it was their first, so I think that's where a lot of the anger might come from.
EA did it for dantes inferno and it sold resonably for them. Mass Effect had a 2 minute commercial during the NFC Championship game.
It is not out of the question for EA to put up a TOR commercial during the superbowl. Afterall EA is literally ALL-IN with this game. Failure will be disasterous for both ea and bioware.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Well thank you back...... The real question I have about TOR is...will it work as an MMO? Alot of the stuff they are emphasing when they talk (full voice acting, companions, etc) is stuff that would make me interested in picking up a single-player game.....plunk down $50 for the box.....play through it once by myself....and be done with it after a month or two...with the game collecting dust on the shelves. There is nothing that they've talked about that makes ME say...... Yeah...I want to be doing this a couple times a week for the next 2 years with my buddies....and I'm willing to pay every month to do so. Maybe it's there...but I'm just not seeing it. I mean, voice-acting is a nice production value....but after hearing the voice actor say "You don't know the power of the Sith." for the first 30 times.... I think the thrill is pretty much gone.... not anything there which is going to keep me tuning in for the next 2 years to hear him repeat it over and over again.
Had to cut back our quoting!
I can see where you are coming from big time. I have to check myself, because I admit, I am a Star Wars fan, so I want to have this universe to "play" in. Because of that, I'm biased from the get-go, and I know it. That being said, I've always prefered games with a more sandboxy feel from SWG to Fallen Earth recently. (guess I liked crafting in both games..anyhow..) So from a development standpoint, TOR isnt what I'd have preferred, but it doesnt mean I wont enjoy it. With crafting, it kept me in games for far longer than I'd have thought, because even if I was tired of the PvE/PvP I'd keep up on my crafting until a patch or a content release rejuvenated the game for me. With TOR I sense less of that, and I admit I dont know a thing about how those things will play out, so it makes me wonder about the staying power it'll have for me.
One way or another, I'm sure I'll get it, and maybe something else will drag me in and hold me, or just the Star Wars universe itself. I dont know for sure, but I do know I'll head into it open minded, and I'll have to spend some time with it. While they arent my choices, I'm not critical of Bioware's choices, they see things one way, so either I get on board and like it, or.....
Anyhow, I hope that if you, hell if anyone, gives it a whirl they find something that makes it worth it for 'em. I'd also hope that you find something that gives it replayability, and isnt just a one month KotOR experience. (Still though, if $49 or $59 buys me multiple KotOR experiences I'd be thrilled with that alone, but yeah, it's the MMO that I think we're all here hoping about.)
I would say negativity from sandbox fans is good for TOR as long as the game has an open world....which is it supposed to have.
Lack of forced PVP....this is a problem why? If your customers are PVE gamers, they sure wont be complaining about a lack of FFA.
Lack of reliance on Uncle Owen.....this is a problem why? What is the total percentage of dedicated crafters in MMOs? I would wager it is less than 10%. So should a game revolve a game around that group, or where the far majority of the subs is gonna come from?
Lack of being able to place houses....this is a problem why? The devs are paid to produce content, and I see no problem with them making the landscape in the manner they see fit.
These are just a few things I have seen sandboxers complain about gaming. In a game centered around PVE, the only thing that might be cool would be housing....in an instanced manner ala TOR is doing. There is no need for Uncle Owen to sell ya gear when you are out questing/raiding/whatever to get your gear. And there sure is no need to be forced to PVP if all you are interested in is PVE.
So as I stated prior....the fact the sandbox folks cant stand this game means good things IMO. Granted it could launch a buggy mess, with no content....but after all the money, and time in developmen, I doubt it will.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
I never played SWG and quite frankly since I never heard of it until the trolling on these forums, I'm assuming it wasn't that successful in comparision to WOW and other smaller sub games such as LOTRO or EQ2 (I could be wrong).
Star Wars Galaxies was pretty successful in it's heyday, but it didn't last long (only a few years), Sony Online Entertainment made some efforts to try and make it much bigger, and well you know the rest from there. I remember SWG's active subscriptions being over 300,000, which was pretty good at the time, and sold product being well over 1 million. I think only EQ, FF and Linage had more subscriptions for a time. When WoW came out, it quickly passed each of those and never looked back. EQ2 peaked above SWG for a short time after it's release, but overtime SWG had a larger subscription base than EQ2 (I'm not sure about the last couple of years up until today though).
I played SWG, but I really don't get that worked-up about it, I'm glad I left it to play other MMOs whether it got nerfed or otherwise. I think there were a lot of people at that time that had never played a MMO before, and it was their first, so I think that's where a lot of the anger might come from.
actually that sounds relatively successful, so that was interesting info. I guess it was just before my time since I started with WOW about a month after it was released.
Star Wars Galaxies was pretty successful in it's heyday, but it didn't last long (only a few years), Sony Online Entertainment made some efforts to try and make it much bigger, and well you know the rest from there. I remember SWG's active subscriptions being over 300,000, which was pretty good at the time, and sold product being well over 1 million. I think only EQ, FF and Linage had more subscriptions for a time. When WoW came out, it quickly passed each of those and never looked back. EQ2 peaked above SWG for a short time after it's release, but overtime SWG had a larger subscription base than EQ2 (I'm not sure about the last couple of years up until today though).
Actually, that's not true.
As soon as EQ2 and even more WoW came out, the other MMO's took a dive, some more, some less, but SWG was among those as well.
As soon as EQ2 came out, it trumped SWG in subs from the very start, and from its launch EQ2 had more subs than SWG2.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
As long as the keyboard thumpers and Pre-NGE SWG witnesses keep making post about how we are all doomed and SWTOR is the anti-christ of mmos, I know Bioware is still on the right track. The minute those guys stop with their holy message of converting TOR to SWG 2 being our only salvation against Bioware's sinful ways, then I'll start to worry about what Bioware is doing....because that would mean they have been swayed by the zealots.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
I would say negativity from sandbox fans is good for TOR as long as the game has an open world....which is it supposed to have.
Lack of forced PVP....this is a problem why? If your customers are PVE gamers, they sure wont be complaining about a lack of FFA.
Lack of reliance on Uncle Owen.....this is a problem why? What is the total percentage of dedicated crafters in MMOs? I would wager it is less than 10%. So should a game revolve a game around that group, or where the far majority of the subs is gonna come from?
Lack of being able to place houses....this is a problem why? The devs are paid to produce content, and I see no problem with them making the landscape in the manner they see fit.
These are just a few things I have seen sandboxers complain about gaming. In a game centered around PVE, the only thing that might be cool would be housing....in an instanced manner ala TOR is doing. There is no need for Uncle Owen to sell ya gear when you are out questing/raiding/whatever to get your gear. And there sure is no need to be forced to PVP if all you are interested in is PVE.
So as I stated prior....the fact the sandbox folks cant stand this game means good things IMO. Granted it could launch a buggy mess, with no content....but after all the money, and time in developmen, I doubt it will.
You know, this kind of thinking saddens me. When did MMO gaming became "we versus the other group"?
So many are thankful they have their plaything, and to hell with those who want other stuff in a game as well. Like crafters or people who like housing.
IMVPO a great game has to offer something for many, and not shut them out because they may be only smaller in numbers than others. It is what makes a really good game round. You meet many different people doing different things. Even if I don't craft, the very existence of a crafter community made a MMO feel richer and more rounded for me. And then, there is that simple generosity to enjoy that other people get something for their own fun to play as well, even if it's not your sort of fun.
As long as the keyboard thumpers and Pre-NGE SWG witnesses keep making post about how we are all doomed and SWTOR is the anti-christ of mmos, I know Bioware is still on the right track. The minute those guys stop with their holy message of converting TOR to SWG 2 being our only salvation against Bioware's sinful ways, then I'll start to worry about what Bioware is doing....because that would mean they have been swayed by the zealots.
You mean, if Elekal reapears and writes a review how great SWTOR is, thousands of people are going to jump from a bridge? XD
9 times out of 10 if a game gets negative posts on this site it means it's doing something right. This community isn't known for showering praises on games that have a chance at success.
Typical threads on new games/models consist of both extremes duking it out. Sometimes one extreme is justified, other times the other extreme is justified. I think TOR will hold its own weight, jmho.
Comments
This site is like "Chicken Little" The sky is always falling!
Awesome response!
What I come back to, is the "most games" remark, and I do agree. If folks here think a game is junk, then usually it ends up not doing all that well, as if here we are an accurate barometer for the genre. Take a deep breath though, and consider World of Warcraft. That game is the exception to rule, and the problem is that it is the 800-lb gorilla in the room at the moment. I'm not sure how to figure it, but most site's you visit for gamers WoW takes a pretty big bashing. That being said, it is by far the biggest game out there. That's my McDonalds analogy, most people think it is junk, but they sell more burgers than anyone, and it is for a variety of reasons.
I think that based on the IP, the budget, and the development house, The Old Republic has a pretty good shot of joining WoW in that "exception rather than the norm" rule about how it is perceived. I think that it could get bashed right and left on forums, but end up with a huge audience. Granted it has to do a few things right, like release smoothly and have a large amount of polish. If it can get thru the first 6 months or so that way, it can be that other anamoly. Call it Burger King to WoW's McDonalds?
Totally agree about the dynamic here and on other hobby forums, thats a great point. I guess the reason I said what I did, is that sometimes here I definitely see people here pumped up about the importance, or the relavence, or that they can confidently speak for entire communities. Maybe sometimes we can, but it does go back to that 800-lb gorilla, love it or hate it, its commercial popularity is off the charts when compared to the genre. To me, most MMO-fan forums dont reflect the popularity of WoW.
Finally, I agree with what you said about the industry. Just because WoW is a commercial empire doesnt mean to me that I like everything about it. I'd like to have some choices, see some more niche's filled and give players a chance to do something different. Instead of refining a tried and true formula, pioneer something entirely new. The disenfranchised niche that many of us here belong to, thats exactly what we are looking for. (Maybe another reason the popularity of TOR is where it is on these forums?)
Cheers man, good thoughts, definitely made me think!
EXACTLY!!!!!
Listen to Sports Radio or any talk show...this is the same type of "fanaticism" people exhibit for their favorite sports team or whatever their current hobby is (hunting, fishing, golf, airplanes, RC, stamping, etc). We're not the 1st generation of fanatics and we will most certainly not be the last.
I find the negativity encouraging because I have enjoyed the games that have the most haters on this site. I now try the games with the most negativity as potential fun times.
Nice to meet you. I am exactly the same. More the people hate games here more i enjoy them like AOC, WAR, WOW and now FFXIV. The more the people praise a game i find them generally boring like Vanguard, Ryzom etc.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
This forum is populated to a large degree with people who enjoy sandbox games only. Even some of the writers fit that bill. As a result, you will find massive negativity for pretty much any non-sandbox game.
Actually... I take that back. You will find negativity for EVERY game because the sandbox folks don't seem to like any of the new games that are released for their niche.
I agree with you guys though. The more people on this forum complain about games, the more I tend to like them. Go figure.
Well thank you back......
The real question I have about TOR is...will it work as an MMO? Alot of the stuff they are emphasing when they talk (full voice acting, companions, etc) is stuff that would make me interested in picking up a single-player game.....plunk down $50 for the box.....play through it once by myself....and be done with it after a month or two...with the game collecting dust on the shelves.
There is nothing that they've talked about that makes ME say...... Yeah...I want to be doing this a couple times a week for the next 2 years with my buddies....and I'm willing to pay every month to do so.
Maybe it's there...but I'm just not seeing it. I mean, voice-acting is a nice production value....but after hearing the voice actor say "You don't know the power of the Sith." for the first 30 times.... I think the thrill is pretty much gone.... not anything there which is going to keep me tuning in for the next 2 years to hear him repeat it over and over again.
Well... they talked about a lot of stuff, huge worlds, lots and lots to explore, class customisation, I don't know what exactly you're looking for but here's a good compilation of the info released so far: compilation thread.
There's a hell of a lot more info to be found besides story or companions, although it's true that we still have to learn in detail about the other endgame aspects, if and how the 'world changing' World Arcs and Battlegrounds work, what is the twist in crafting in SW:TOR, and what this special thing at endgame they had in mind that they were hinting at.
If you want to know how SW:TOR plays and feels in the lower levels, then I recommend you to take a look at this thread, best demo review so far, where two demo players give a thorough report of their impressions and experiences when they played SW:TOR.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
BioWare is not dumb. They are waiting until Cata is released so blizzard won't be able to steal anything. After Blizz launches Cata there will begin an explosion of information from BioWare. Partially to distract people from Cata and partially to start the launch hype.
Wait till you see the commercials, toys, media blowouts, facebook contests, website ads, etc. The launch of SW:TOR will be bigger than any MMORPG that came before it. More people will start to ask "What is this MMORPG thing? Its Star Wars and looks pretty neat". I also fully expect at least 1 (if not 2) more trailer from Blur studios to wow people during the superbowl.
After all of the hullabaloo then we will get to find out if it is actually good. I hope it is
.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
NooooooooooooooooOOOOo!!!! That would be the BIGGEST waste of money EVER by a gaming company. Save the 25million that would probably cost and invest it into a team dedicated to creating a free roaming space portion of the game...or expanding crafting...or other classes...or anything!!!
75%of the idiots who bash this game are going to buy it anyway.
Also, seriously, this site's forums are nothing but a nonstop bitchfest. I say let nerd's rage and bloody well wait for the game to come out.
So you say: because MMORPG forum posters are dumb trolls, when they hate a MMO it must be good? Did I get that right? Sounds like a strange way to conclude, because if this were so, all MMORGPs should be great, since almost all were more or less flamed here. So by your logic we live in MMO wonderland where everything is happy happy perfect.
A troll is someone who has no own opinion whatsoever. He just posts things for the reason to enjoy the anger of others. Think about this definition before calling an entire forum a gathering of trolls. (Besides: if so, why are you here?)
Some how TONS of posts are off topic..[surprised].
I do not think negatiity is a big deal,now a days the deal breaker is the Beta test,this is when a game is suppose to be 99.9% finished,people get a feel for what the developer is really going to be selling the players.I mean honestly,if you had NOTHING but negative thoughts about a game,then you enter a beta test and find it to be amazing,what is going to matter more?Obvious answer is the amazing game will matter more and you won't hestitate to tell others and buy a subscription ASAP.
I don't think a game has to even hit the amazing status,but at least show us that everything has a purpose in the design and that it was well thought out.Then give us several options for game play and lots of things to do ,outside of boring quests.So bottom line is that chit chat means nothing when compared to what is delivered,negative talk can go either way ,it can escalate or totally dissppear depending on the game itself.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Maybe they buy it because it's Star Wars, not because it's perfect? Ever thought of that?
If everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot you must live in a miserable reality. My condolences.
Star Wars Galaxies was pretty successful in it's heyday, but it didn't last long (only a few years), Sony Online Entertainment made some efforts to try and make it much bigger, and well you know the rest from there. I remember SWG's active subscriptions being over 300,000, which was pretty good at the time, and sold product being well over 1 million. I think only EQ, FF and Linage had more subscriptions for a time. When WoW came out, it quickly passed each of those and never looked back. EQ2 peaked above SWG for a short time after it's release, but overtime SWG had a larger subscription base than EQ2 (I'm not sure about the last couple of years up until today though).
I played SWG, but I really don't get that worked-up about it, I'm glad I left it to play other MMOs whether it got nerfed or otherwise. I think there were a lot of people at that time that had never played a MMO before, and it was their first, so I think that's where a lot of the anger might come from.
EA did it for dantes inferno and it sold resonably for them. Mass Effect had a 2 minute commercial during the NFC Championship game.
It is not out of the question for EA to put up a TOR commercial during the superbowl. Afterall EA is literally ALL-IN with this game. Failure will be disasterous for both ea and bioware.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
Had to cut back our quoting!
I can see where you are coming from big time. I have to check myself, because I admit, I am a Star Wars fan, so I want to have this universe to "play" in. Because of that, I'm biased from the get-go, and I know it. That being said, I've always prefered games with a more sandboxy feel from SWG to Fallen Earth recently. (guess I liked crafting in both games..anyhow..) So from a development standpoint, TOR isnt what I'd have preferred, but it doesnt mean I wont enjoy it. With crafting, it kept me in games for far longer than I'd have thought, because even if I was tired of the PvE/PvP I'd keep up on my crafting until a patch or a content release rejuvenated the game for me. With TOR I sense less of that, and I admit I dont know a thing about how those things will play out, so it makes me wonder about the staying power it'll have for me.
One way or another, I'm sure I'll get it, and maybe something else will drag me in and hold me, or just the Star Wars universe itself. I dont know for sure, but I do know I'll head into it open minded, and I'll have to spend some time with it. While they arent my choices, I'm not critical of Bioware's choices, they see things one way, so either I get on board and like it, or.....
Anyhow, I hope that if you, hell if anyone, gives it a whirl they find something that makes it worth it for 'em. I'd also hope that you find something that gives it replayability, and isnt just a one month KotOR experience. (Still though, if $49 or $59 buys me multiple KotOR experiences I'd be thrilled with that alone, but yeah, it's the MMO that I think we're all here hoping about.)
I would say negativity from sandbox fans is good for TOR as long as the game has an open world....which is it supposed to have.
Lack of forced PVP....this is a problem why? If your customers are PVE gamers, they sure wont be complaining about a lack of FFA.
Lack of reliance on Uncle Owen.....this is a problem why? What is the total percentage of dedicated crafters in MMOs? I would wager it is less than 10%. So should a game revolve a game around that group, or where the far majority of the subs is gonna come from?
Lack of being able to place houses....this is a problem why? The devs are paid to produce content, and I see no problem with them making the landscape in the manner they see fit.
These are just a few things I have seen sandboxers complain about gaming. In a game centered around PVE, the only thing that might be cool would be housing....in an instanced manner ala TOR is doing. There is no need for Uncle Owen to sell ya gear when you are out questing/raiding/whatever to get your gear. And there sure is no need to be forced to PVP if all you are interested in is PVE.
So as I stated prior....the fact the sandbox folks cant stand this game means good things IMO. Granted it could launch a buggy mess, with no content....but after all the money, and time in developmen, I doubt it will.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
actually that sounds relatively successful, so that was interesting info. I guess it was just before my time since I started with WOW about a month after it was released.
There Is Always Hope!
Actually, that's not true.
As soon as EQ2 and even more WoW came out, the other MMO's took a dive, some more, some less, but SWG was among those as well.
As soon as EQ2 came out, it trumped SWG in subs from the very start, and from its launch EQ2 had more subs than SWG2.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
As long as the keyboard thumpers and Pre-NGE SWG witnesses keep making post about how we are all doomed and SWTOR is the anti-christ of mmos, I know Bioware is still on the right track. The minute those guys stop with their holy message of converting TOR to SWG 2 being our only salvation against Bioware's sinful ways, then I'll start to worry about what Bioware is doing....because that would mean they have been swayed by the zealots.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
You know, this kind of thinking saddens me. When did MMO gaming became "we versus the other group"?
So many are thankful they have their plaything, and to hell with those who want other stuff in a game as well. Like crafters or people who like housing.
IMVPO a great game has to offer something for many, and not shut them out because they may be only smaller in numbers than others. It is what makes a really good game round. You meet many different people doing different things. Even if I don't craft, the very existence of a crafter community made a MMO feel richer and more rounded for me. And then, there is that simple generosity to enjoy that other people get something for their own fun to play as well, even if it's not your sort of fun.
Something to consider, if you ask me.
You mean, if Elekal reapears and writes a review how great SWTOR is, thousands of people are going to jump from a bridge? XD
9 times out of 10 if a game gets negative posts on this site it means it's doing something right. This community isn't known for showering praises on games that have a chance at success.
Typical threads on new games/models consist of both extremes duking it out. Sometimes one extreme is justified, other times the other extreme is justified. I think TOR will hold its own weight, jmho.