Let me ask you this, how are people who don't spend their time surfing gaming websites on the internet supposed to find out about these MMO's?
By word of mouth. A great game becomes known by itself. Just look at minecraft. A game made from one guy with obviously lack of publicity. Now everyone knows about it.
The reason people know about WoW and nothing else is that Blizzard is the only MMO company that is spending money on advertising in traditional media.
When Blizz first started to make those commercials it already had millions of players.
Let me ask you this, how are people who don't spend their time surfing gaming websites on the internet supposed to find out about these MMO's?
By word of mouth. A great game becomes known by itself. Just look at minecraft. A game made from one guy with obviously lack of publicity. Now everyone knows about it.
The reason people know about WoW and nothing else is that Blizzard is the only MMO company that is spending money on advertising in traditional media.
When Blizz first started to make those commercials it already had millions of players.
I agree with you to some extent. However I don't know what minecraft is and never have heard anyone talk about it. So no, everyone doesn't know. And I am an extreme hardcore MMO player who spends most of the day at work surfing MMO sites. Not to mention that since WoW there have been no "Great" AAA titles released they have all been faulty in one way or another.
Unfortunately Blizzard raised the bar. If anyone wants to compete for their market they will have to enter the market at the level of content/polish/advertising that Blizzard is at now. Granted that would take a phenomenal investment. But I firmly believe that if a company actually comitted to that, the floodgates would burst open and we would see a mass exodus from WoW.
Let me ask you this, how are people who don't spend their time surfing gaming websites on the internet supposed to find out about these MMO's?
By word of mouth. A great game becomes known by itself. Just look at minecraft. A game made from one guy with obviously lack of publicity. Now everyone knows about it.
The reason people know about WoW and nothing else is that Blizzard is the only MMO company that is spending money on advertising in traditional media.
When Blizz first started to make those commercials it already had millions of players.
I agree with you to some extent. However I don't know what minecraft is and never have heard anyone talk about it. So no, everyone doesn't know. And I am an extreme hardcore MMO player who spends most of the day at work surfing MMO sites. Not to mention that since WoW there have been no "Great" AAA titles released they have all been faulty in one way or another.
Unfortunately Blizzard raised the bar. If anyone wants to compete for their market they will have to enter the market at the level of content/polish/advertising that Blizzard is at now. Granted that would take a phenomenal investment. But I firmly believe that if a company actually comitted to that, the floodgates would burst open and we would see a mass exodus from WoW.
Well what if SWTOR does it again with voice over? I mean a new generation of MMORPG players could be brought to the industry with that game and when they look at other games and see no voice over, non-interactive quest givers and very little personal story they will feel the same way WoW players feel when they test the water.
All the hate porjected towards SWTOR right now is from scared WoW fanatics and hardcore MMORPG players. The general concensous among the casuals and people who have actually played it is OVERWHELMINGLY positive. There is also a large section of non-mmo gamers that have heard of swtor and are following it because of the promise of Kotor 3-8 or whatever.
It is entirely possible that, while not a WoW killer, SWTOR could once again set a bar that MMOs in the future will find impossible to meet.
I don't think the trick is competing for Blizzard's marketshare. Blizzard has a well-established game that they take good care of. It is a polished game and the best of its type in my opinion.
Anyone who is looking to "beat" World of Warcraft will need to have something different. Maybe that's a new sandbox-type game, one with plenty of depth of freedom but maybe not the intense learning curve of EVE. Or maybe it's something entirely different, which would be my bet.
I admit its hard for me to get my head around this idea because the FPS market is multiples of 10x bigger than the MMORPG market (as in number of gamers).
Call of Duty didn't bring fans to the genre, its so old and so established the fans were already there. Call of Duty just made a great game that was accessable. More so than even Halo.
WoW actually brought people into the MMORPG genre. It created its own fanbase and these people play WoW, not MMORPGs.
Hmm well maybe CoD was a bad example, but the point still remains.
You mentioned Halo, so let's look at Halo. I think it's fair to say that Halo brought a lot of new people in the console FPS market, much like WoW did for the MMORPG market. And if you don't think Halo did this, then look back further to Perfect Dark and Goldeneye. The point is, that at some point FPS gamers were not FPS gamers, and some game brought them in.
This is going to be true of any game genre, or really any technology in general. Everyone has to start somehwere, but that doesn't mean that they are going to stay where they started forever. When I first started playing UO, I knew nothing about other MMO's like Meridian 59. That does not mean I was not a MMORPG gamer.
The difference is goldeneye, etc. didn't put people on a gear grind and addict them. It opened some eyes, a lot of eyes, about what could be done on consoles but the burrier there was the technology not the gameplay.
The gameplay is the reason people stayed away from MMORPGs not the technology. Which is why I believe there is a difference. People who love WoW are generally not comfortable with other types of MMOs and the clones just give them a been there done that feeling.
FPS were hugely popular on the PCss and not popular on consoles. The games you mention just made it where you could play them on the consoles. Does that make any sense?
I see what you're saying about the FPS thing being about technology and gameplay, basically the analogy isn't perfect.
On the other hand, Everquest did exactly what WoW did for its time period. EQ1 was the hands down MMO leader when it was around, it brought lots of new blood to the genre, and it hooked people on a grind just like WoW. But as you know, EQ1 lost its lead right when WoW came out. Why? Because WoW was a better game.
Now I do agree that many WoW gamers may not be open to a "non-WoW-like" experience like EvE or other sandbox games. However, I DO think they would be open to other theme park type games provided they provide a superior experience to WoW. After all, if they like WoW, it's reasonable to believe they would like games similar to WoW. GW2 seems to be a top contender in this category. If GW2 manages to be better than WoW on several important dimensions and provide what players expect on other dimensions, then I think it has a chance to take the lead.
In the place of the MMORPG, will be born an new type of MMO game. It will be created to capture the console market of Call of Duty, Gears of War and Uncharted fans. This genre of MMOAction games will be fast paced and competitive and once the interenet begins to lower latency across the board you can expect to play an MMO that handles just like a single player action game. While there will obviously be RPG mechanics they will be much more akin to Mass Effect than any old school MMORPG. Many of us old timers will view it as an abomination and cling to some of the smaller budget traditional MMORPGs that still get released.
Excellent post OP. Excellent. Its so true. WoW is its own genre. So many people that dont even play video games play wow. Also the new action MMO style you talk about has cropped up. One such game is already available. Its called Darkfall. Its an MMOFPS and I see that is where the genre is going imo. Its sandbox, its FPS style combat and its pretty damn fun.
Time to move over for MMOFPS. The genre that was a generation of consoles ahead of it's time will be brought to the forefront in the next couple of years. I even hear a PlanetSide sequel may be coming in 2011.
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
Time to move over for MMOFPS. The genre that was a generation of consoles ahead of it's time will be brought to the forefront in the next couple of years. I even hear a PlanetSide sequel may be coming in 2011.
I like what Planetside wanted to do, just not sure I like the result.. I loved playing Counterstrike Source against the AI or against others of the same internet speed.. However in general I dispise FPS because of lag issues, and also because of the hack programs that many run to win them.. tisk tisk I did read that SOE plans to do a PS2, but haven't heard on a date yet..
Im a lil behind so I read and will give my thoughts:
[object Window]
MMORPGs will have an interesting transition my first thought alot of consoles will be incorporating MMO titles more often and most will also be free such as there is 2 in Japan for the PS3 (forgot names) and while titles like World of Warcraft will see either an increase and or decrease in their players.
I love to see whats coming in the future with technology and creavitivity we might see a 3D wow that some people will never leave, how will F2P MMOs like Ragnarok Online, Rose online, Dragon Saga and Mabinogi go who knows.
Unlike many, I see a very grim future for the MMORPG genre. I believe that right now were are at the penicle of AAA MMORPG games and it will be all down hill from here until the genre either is reborn from its ashes, or is swept away by other forms of MMO games. You are probably thinking I am crazy right now but please, follow me down this rabbit hole of temporary insanity and let me explain my reasoning.
Chasing Customers That Don't Exist
Right now many publishers and developers believe there to be a HUGE audience in which they can market and sell their games. They look at WoW's impressive numbers and view its playerbase as potential customers all the while not realizing that they are making a huge mistake.
You see, pre-WoW MMORPG players were a niche audience and post WoW MMORPGS are STILL a niche audience. "BUT, BUT, BUT, WOW HAS 12 trillionbillion members," you cry angrily. True but WoW players are not MMORPG gamers, they were brought to this industry to play WoW and many of them (possibly upwards of 50%) will never play another MMORPG if they even know of others that exist. So in other words there are actually two genres;
1) MMORPGs which have a niche audience that hops between games constantly looking for "that game" that takes them back to the magic they felt with UO, EQ, AC, etc. They are never happy and hate how games are trying to copy wow.
2) WoW. Yes WoW should be considered a genre because it has a population that rivals the greater MMORPG population in size and most if not all of this population will play WoW until Blizzards next MMO comes out or they shut down the servers.
A funny story I like to tell revolves around my time playing LotRO. I was early to a raid in a guilds vent and I came across a large group of people playing WoW. They asked me who I was and what character I was playing in WoW. I said I was playing LotRO and was here for a raid. I swear that 6 or 7 of them asked me, "What is Lord of the Rings Online?". That right there is not an isolated incendent as I have come across many WoW players in the real world that have no clue what other MMORPGs are out there.
Bandwagoning to the Point of Oversaturation
With the success of WoW it was obvious that many developers would try to copy it. The problem is people who play WoW, and might be looking for another game, don't want to play rushed copies of WoW but they also don't want to play games that deviate away from the comfort area of WoW. So they spend very little time in other MMOs before going back to WoW. This leaves the WoW clones and games that differentiate from WoW fighting over that extremly niche group of MMORPG players who cannot be happy EVER.
As of right now we are hitting the breaking point of oversaturation. Companies keep releasing these big budget MMOs to a population that doesn't exist and wondering why they only have 100k to 200k subscriptions after 2 months time. The answer is there are too many games fighting for a niche group of customers and the idea that WoW players are customers is a fallacy.
2011 the MMORPG Armageddon
2011 will be the last year of big budget MMORPGs. While there maybe some planned for 2012 and beyond expect many of them to become vaporware or shells of their former self. The reson for the Armageddon is going to be the mass oversaturation by new games. We have DCUO, SWTOR, Rift, The Agency, (possibly) GW2 and others launching in the same year. Most of them are going to be fighting over that same niche group of people that game hop right now and all but two are going to crash and burn like the Hindenburg. I will discuss why two of those will succeed now.
1) GW2: Guild Wars 2 will succeed in 2011 or 2012 souly on the fact that it is b2p. People will be able to augment their playing of another MMO with a one time $60 payment and the occasional microtransaction. It will garner a respectable population as Arenanet will likely go after former GW players, PvP players, console gamers and obviously the MMORPG hoppers.
2) SWTOR: Star Wars the Old Republic will succeed not because it is a great MMORPG but because it ignores the MMORPG gamers as much as possible. You see BioWare realises that there are WoW gamers and MMORPG gamers. They can throw together a decent MMORPG to attract MMORPG gamers but they know they cannot take WoW players. So what can they do to succeed with such an ambitious project?
The answer is simple. BioWare is making a game that will appeal to the people who enjoy BioWare games by adding 8 full length single player games and adding just enough multiplayer content that they can justify the monthly fee. It will be an MMORPG but not targeted at WoW gamers or MMORPG gamers. It is targeted at BioWare fans, SW fans and casual gamers. For this reason BioWare will pull a Blizzard and garner a big enough population to be considered a success in the industry. It will not break down any walls, it will be KotoR 1-8 with multiplayer gameplay, raids, huge worlds, PvP and everything WoW has.
In other words, BioWare is doing everything Blizzard did in 2005 to create their own audience. They do not need the niche MMORPG audience although many of them will give them money.
Post Armageddon
After developers realize that there is no money to be made by copying WoW and that the general MMORPG population is to fickle and jaded to appease they will move on to smaller or more casual projects. Big budget MMORGSs will die out and there will be SWTOR, WoW and Blizzards next MMO.
In the place of the MMORPG, will be born an new type of MMO game. It will be created to capture the console market of Call of Duty, Gears of War and Uncharted fans. This genre of MMOAction games will be fast paced and competitive and once the interenet begins to lower latency across the board you can expect to play an MMO that handles just like a single player action game. While there will obviously be RPG mechanics they will be much more akin to Mass Effect than any old school MMORPG. Many of us old timers will view it as an abomination and cling to some of the smaller budget traditional MMORPGs that still get released.
The funy thing is, it will be Blizzard themselves who bring about this new era in MMO games with Titan. Which will shortly be followed by Bungie's MMO. It will be a great time for lovers of the three B's (Blizzard, Bungie, BioWare) but for those that still cling to UO and EQ it will be hell.
I expected this to be yet another QQ post about F2P games, but you surprised me and actualy I fully agree with you. +1
Truer words could not be said. Its clear you done your homework.
Shame is that producers that get hundreds of millions of dolars budgets are trained lab monkeys unable to close such simple deduction.
I especially like what you said about SWTOR (and you are in beta , nice!)
Its really a laughable game. But , it will win the race.
As for future of MMOs ?
GW2 will turn tables for sure. Than maybe WOD from CCP ?
Indies will start to rise. Lower budget MMOs hopefully.
One thing is sure. Now more than ever
WOW killed MMOs
Well, I for one will disagree with the SWTOR as a laughable game. I will not break the NDA so I will stick to what is known and there is no point in reading into what I say as any indication of said games beta either because this is ENTIRELY AN OPINION BASED ON KNOWN INFORMATION.
Ok now that the disclaimer is out of the way;
SWTOR is going to be exactly what they say it is. KoTOR 1-8 with MMORPG mechanics. It is an MMORPG, has all of the things WoW does (as stated by devs) but will probably not do ANYTHING for the niche MMORPG gamers or WoW crowd (opinion based of what devs have said).
It will win awards, much like BioWare's other games, and people will treat it as a Co-op RPG, even if it is a true MMORPG. BioWare fans, SW fans and CRPG fans will be super happy, since the game is literally being made for them, and many will play their first MMORPG ever because of it.
It is my belief that SWTOR will do NOTHING for the MMORPG genre but kill it faster because it will create SWTOR gamers, not MMORPG gamers (opinion not based on anything but MMO gaming trends).
Just like WoW has done.
@MMORPG.com I didn't break the NDA there so please dont delete lol.
Still reading the rest of the thread (great job OP, I fully agree with it) but this just made me so happy! *tear*
Obviously my wallet doesn't think so but w/e it is KOTOR!
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
The only problem you are forgeting is the NET has evolved .
While the fanatasy genre chases the excisting mmo crowd .
Games like SWTOR chases the alternative or older audience .
The younger will come , see WoW they always flock to a product where there is mass of people .
Younger people dont like a failing small community , they just want to be part of a BIG community .
Farmville (biggest online community worldwide)
The whole trick is to get those Big Online money spending community into MMORPG .
Same way Blizzard succeeded in WoW
The MMORPG crowd or market is too small , its the uncharted population of the net (especially with now beter computers and viber optics ) you want .
For 2011 going to be a interesting year none the less , as 2010 went as I in my mind predicted .
So lets see if GW2 is going to be delayed till 2012 (thats my suspicion) .
Only one currently on target is Rift and SWTOR , Tera is on target in asian market , but dont know about westernising .
How long it would take , lauching Tera without having it accomodate Western audience could be its downfall .
(western market and asian market are two different concept , yes some of us love to read manga , doesn´t mean majority does )
If you're looking for an untapped base for MMORPGs, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
WoW tapped into society as a whole. Hell, they're advertised on TV. Everybody knows about MMOs now.
Since WoW, there have only been specific "niche" markets to tap into. FaceBook games like Farmville and so many others have tapped into the massive, free to play, easy game with real money (or not) market most recently.
I think there are few (niche) markets to tap into anymore. The only place to go anymore is to expand what exists. To make it better, and not just a little. The only thing to do is advance it in leaps and bounds. The big companies have advanced only in marketting, to the point of building their games around it. Only small start-ups have tried to advance physics, but failed because they just didn't have the funds to make a good game overall. The newest successes have been simple freebies like Farmville with marketting tricks like "FtP". MMO's have stagnated as far as advancement.
There are ample places to advance in.
AI
Exploration
Social (player governments (laws and politics), world trade, meaningful warfare, etc.)
World interaction and terrain deformation
These are the primary aspects that can be advanced. Other than that, there's nothing new out there.
If you're looking for an untapped base for MMORPGs, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
WoW tapped into society as a whole. Hell, they're advertised on TV. Everybody knows about MMOs now.
Since WoW, there have only been specific "niche" markets to tap into. FaceBook games like Farmville and so many others have tapped into the massive, free to play, easy game with real money (or not) market most recently.
I think there are few (niche) markets to tap into anymore. The only place to go anymore is to expand what exists. To make it better, and not just a little. The only thing to do is advance it in leaps and bounds. The big companies have advanced only in marketting, to the point of building their games around it. Only small start-ups have tried to advance physics, but failed because they just didn't have the funds to make a good game overall. The newest successes have been simple freebies like Farmville with marketting tricks like "FtP". MMO's have stagnated as far as advancement.
There are ample places to advance in.
AI
Exploration
Social (player governments (laws and politics), world trade, meaningful warfare, etc.)
World interaction and terrain deformation
These are the primary aspects that can be advanced. Other than that, there's nothing new out there.
OH excellent reply , no seriously very well written and i wish i could write like that .
You just forgot one thing , Blizzard launched the mmo on the right time , when people were moving from dial up to ADSL and Viber Optic Cables aside from people having just upgraded the computers .
If blizzard launched WoW 2 years earlier , it would have been a huge disaster , cause people couldn´t stay connected long enough .
The 4 places to improve in i can discuss (i am not argueing , cause you have valid points)
1 AI = yes tougher AI doesn´t hurt , but you cannot make AI unbeatable (Some F2P did that and it was no fun )
Example you can make MOB jump always to the players back arc/ out of line of sight / or run away and get help , but if 1000 mobs did that it only cause frustrations.
One of the reasons AI must not be too dumb , but sadly also not too clever . so smart AI mobs needs to be used sparingly .
2 Explorations = sadly its a thing not used anymore , why every MMO has tons of exploration points .
Just most people are not interested in it anymore . imagine you could level by explorations (which is possible in wow)
Most people dont bother with it , explorations as finding rare stuff is nowadays impossible , since everything is out on the net , example I need a rare beast , i cannot find it , after in the past 6 hours , i give up after 2 hours and google it .
This is a huge difference from 7 years ago , where people kept there secrets and you need to find out yourself .
3 Social this is a aspect i find really important , but sadly the NET has evolved into LEAVE ME ALONE, AND LET ME DO MY STUFF .
Look i am not argueing with you , cause i respect your post , but how many will come along and just put useless statements.
Social aspect i found is the best in small MMORPGs and small community , sadly those tend to die out so fast.
Cause simply put drama die out with hurting people in real life , instead of in the end laughing about it .
And saying well played or acted ! , people get hurt for no reasons .
4 World interaction and terrain deformation , you are right on the money , thats what City of Heroes did , what Blizzard is doing now . this is what all MMORPG in the future has to work on .
No longer does the player has no impact on decisions or just move along . Phasing is the key to that .
And its really working .
Look no gloom or doom , even if my post sounds like that .
Its that the first 3 points , untill somebody comes up with a brilliant strategy to implement it .
Without upsetting the balance of RL (or people feeling ) you can elvove that .
Maybe putting in a GM´s theatre squad or whatever will be a hit in the near future , and people accept those are PC played by a professional group , who you can interact and kill if you like it .
If you're looking for an untapped base for MMORPGs, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
WoW tapped into society as a whole. Hell, they're advertised on TV. Everybody knows about MMOs now.
Since WoW, there have only been specific "niche" markets to tap into. FaceBook games like Farmville and so many others have tapped into the massive, free to play, easy game with real money (or not) market most recently.
I think there are few (niche) markets to tap into anymore. The only place to go anymore is to expand what exists. To make it better, and not just a little. The only thing to do is advance it in leaps and bounds. The big companies have advanced only in marketting, to the point of building their games around it. Only small start-ups have tried to advance physics, but failed because they just didn't have the funds to make a good game overall. The newest successes have been simple freebies like Farmville with marketting tricks like "FtP". MMO's have stagnated as far as advancement.
There are ample places to advance in.
AI
Exploration
Social (player governments (laws and politics), world trade, meaningful warfare, etc.)
World interaction and terrain deformation
These are the primary aspects that can be advanced. Other than that, there's nothing new out there.
OH excellent reply , no seriously very well written and i wish i could write like that .
You just forgot one thing , Blizzard launched the mmo on the right time , when people were moving from dial up to ADSL and Viber Optic Cables aside from people having just upgraded the computers .
If blizzard launched WoW 2 years earlier , it would have been a huge disaster , cause people couldn´t stay connected long enough .
The 4 places to improve in i can discuss (i am not argueing , cause you have valid points)
1 AI = yes tougher AI doesn´t hurt , but you cannot make AI unbeatable (Some F2P did that and it was no fun )
Example you can make MOB jump always to the players back arc/ out of line of sight / or run away and get help , but if 1000 mobs did that it only cause frustrations.
One of the reasons AI must not be too dumb , but sadly also not too clever . so smart AI mobs needs to be used sparingly .
2 Explorations = sadly its a thing not used anymore , why every MMO has tons of exploration points .
Just most people are not interested in it anymore . imagine you could level by explorations (which is possible in wow)
Most people dont bother with it , explorations as finding rare stuff is nowadays impossible , since everything is out on the net , example I need a rare beast , i cannot find it , after in the past 6 hours , i give up after 2 hours and google it .
This is a huge difference from 7 years ago , where people kept there secrets and you need to find out yourself .
3 Social this is a aspect i find really important , but sadly the NET has evolved into LEAVE ME ALONE, AND LET ME DO MY STUFF .
Look i am not argueing with you , cause i respect your post , but how many will come along and just put useless statements.
Social aspect i found is the best in small MMORPGs and small community , sadly those tend to die out so fast.
Cause simply put drama die out with hurting people in real life , instead of in the end laughing about it .
And saying well played or acted ! , people get hurt for no reasons .
4 World interaction and terrain deformation , you are right on the money , thats what City of Heroes did , what Blizzard is doing now . this is what all MMORPG in the future has to work on .
No longer does the player has no impact on decisions or just move along . Phasing is the key to that .
And its really working .
Look no gloom or doom , even if my post sounds like that .
Its that the first 3 points , untill somebody comes up with a brilliant strategy to implement it .
Without upsetting the balance of RL (or people feeling ) you can elvove that .
Maybe putting in a GM´s theatre squad or whatever will be a hit in the near future , and people accept those are PC played by a professional group , who you can interact and kill if you like it .
Only time can tell .
And an excellent reply by you, Drake-hound.
I completely agree on WoW's timing. But slightly different. WoW worked on the connectivity factor, and made it better then it's predecessors. So, this is on top of your comment, and yes, a big reason for their success. Timing is everything. Had WoW been made years later, and someone else done what they did, that other game would be what we talk about now.
"yes tougher AI doesn´t hurt , but you cannot make AI unbeatable"
Completely agree. A game developer once said that the biggest problem with AI is making it beatable. But I think there's plenty of possibility in making AI that depends on what the NPC perceives, by skill and chance, and then giving that AI a weighted choice to make based on what it perceives. This can simulate intelligence very well while allowing for "mistakes" and "knowledge" too.
On your Exploration comments...the way games are made is why it doesn't work. There is no meaning to exploration these days. It needs to have meaningful discovery. In these repetitive quest driven games, you just can't have any meaning to exploration or anything else, except badges of various nature. But if a game were a Sandbox, imagine AI as I described above where the NPC loot you if you die, and store this loot in a secret room that they made. Now, if you discover this secret room, you find a horde of treasure. And this can be played out all over a game world. Along with all kinds of other content for discovery.
I can see your point on social game play. But I think games need to help players grow up a little, and learn social skills. They've (the games) caved. Bad choice.
On world interaction, etc. I think "phasing" is just another form of "instances". And I see them as very bad for the genre. They remove the "persistent" and the "massive".
Yes, only time will tell. But I think that the gaming community as a whole has evolved a little from the primarily new gamers who've been "wowed" (pardon the pun), and are now asking "is there nothing more?"
On your Exploration comments...the way games are made is why it doesn't work. There is no meaning to exploration these days. It needs to have meaningful discovery. In these repetitive quest driven games, you just can't have any meaning to exploration or anything else, except badges of various nature. But if a game were a Sandbox, imagine AI as I described above where the NPC loot you if you die, and store this loot in a secret room that they made. Now, if you discover this secret room, you find a horde of treasure. And this can be played out all over a game world. Along with all kinds of other content for discovery.
The part of exploration that tends to get overlooked is the step between 'go into the wilderness' and 'found a wonderous treasure'. How do I go about finding that secret stash? Do I just wander randomly, hoping to hit the jackpot and hit a hidden cave that will disapear when I am done with it? Do I play some sort of tracking mini-game to find where the location is? If you do make this step interesting AND scalable to so that other players can also participate then your exploration systm will be a dud.
On your Exploration comments...the way games are made is why it doesn't work. There is no meaning to exploration these days. It needs to have meaningful discovery. In these repetitive quest driven games, you just can't have any meaning to exploration or anything else, except badges of various nature. But if a game were a Sandbox, imagine AI as I described above where the NPC loot you if you die, and store this loot in a secret room that they made. Now, if you discover this secret room, you find a horde of treasure. And this can be played out all over a game world. Along with all kinds of other content for discovery.
The part of exploration that tends to get overlooked is the step between 'go into the wilderness' and 'found a wonderous treasure'. How do I go about finding that secret stash? Do I just wander randomly, hoping to hit the jackpot and hit a hidden cave that will disapear when I am done with it? Do I play some sort of tracking mini-game to find where the location is? If you do make this step interesting AND scalable to so that other players can also participate then your exploration systm will be a dud.
"Scalability" and similar nonsense has absolutely no place in any of my comments.
This is just one idea for some meaningful exploration reward. One among many. Why are you thinking so gamey? In this case, it's purely a search to overcome however the stash is hidden. If it's a secret door hidden by camouflage, then it's a check against a used skill of searching and/or perception. *You look at* > *what do you see?* > *skill check or visual cue or alternate system*. Or maybe it's a magical illusion or portal, requiring some magical means to detect and/or overcome it.
I just threw that out there so that people could see that sometimes, once a system is built in the right sort of game, the GMs don't even have to do anything as it self propogates throughout the game world, balanced by successes/failures all on it's own.
But by NO means is that the only thing I'd do to give exploration meaning.
Comments
Which is another reason why SWTOR will succeed. Its going to be freaking EVERYWHERE!
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
I agree with you to some extent. However I don't know what minecraft is and never have heard anyone talk about it. So no, everyone doesn't know. And I am an extreme hardcore MMO player who spends most of the day at work surfing MMO sites. Not to mention that since WoW there have been no "Great" AAA titles released they have all been faulty in one way or another.
Unfortunately Blizzard raised the bar. If anyone wants to compete for their market they will have to enter the market at the level of content/polish/advertising that Blizzard is at now. Granted that would take a phenomenal investment. But I firmly believe that if a company actually comitted to that, the floodgates would burst open and we would see a mass exodus from WoW.
Well what if SWTOR does it again with voice over? I mean a new generation of MMORPG players could be brought to the industry with that game and when they look at other games and see no voice over, non-interactive quest givers and very little personal story they will feel the same way WoW players feel when they test the water.
All the hate porjected towards SWTOR right now is from scared WoW fanatics and hardcore MMORPG players. The general concensous among the casuals and people who have actually played it is OVERWHELMINGLY positive. There is also a large section of non-mmo gamers that have heard of swtor and are following it because of the promise of Kotor 3-8 or whatever.
It is entirely possible that, while not a WoW killer, SWTOR could once again set a bar that MMOs in the future will find impossible to meet.
Playing: Tera, BF3, ME3
Waiting on: Guild Wars 2
I don't think the trick is competing for Blizzard's marketshare. Blizzard has a well-established game that they take good care of. It is a polished game and the best of its type in my opinion.
Anyone who is looking to "beat" World of Warcraft will need to have something different. Maybe that's a new sandbox-type game, one with plenty of depth of freedom but maybe not the intense learning curve of EVE. Or maybe it's something entirely different, which would be my bet.
I see what you're saying about the FPS thing being about technology and gameplay, basically the analogy isn't perfect.
On the other hand, Everquest did exactly what WoW did for its time period. EQ1 was the hands down MMO leader when it was around, it brought lots of new blood to the genre, and it hooked people on a grind just like WoW. But as you know, EQ1 lost its lead right when WoW came out. Why? Because WoW was a better game.
Now I do agree that many WoW gamers may not be open to a "non-WoW-like" experience like EvE or other sandbox games. However, I DO think they would be open to other theme park type games provided they provide a superior experience to WoW. After all, if they like WoW, it's reasonable to believe they would like games similar to WoW. GW2 seems to be a top contender in this category. If GW2 manages to be better than WoW on several important dimensions and provide what players expect on other dimensions, then I think it has a chance to take the lead.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Show me some regression lines with clearly defined operationally defined varibles and I might agree.. Though it does make a great topic to chat about
Hope you got your things together. Hope you are quite prepared to die. Looks like we're in for nasty weather. ... There's a bad moon on the rise.
I like what Planetside wanted to do, just not sure I like the result.. I loved playing Counterstrike Source against the AI or against others of the same internet speed.. However in general I dispise FPS because of lag issues, and also because of the hack programs that many run to win them.. tisk tisk I did read that SOE plans to do a PS2, but haven't heard on a date yet..
Im a lil behind so I read and will give my thoughts:
[object Window]
MMORPGs will have an interesting transition my first thought alot of consoles will be incorporating MMO titles more often and most will also be free such as there is 2 in Japan for the PS3 (forgot names) and while titles like World of Warcraft will see either an increase and or decrease in their players.
I love to see whats coming in the future with technology and creavitivity we might see a 3D wow that some people will never leave, how will F2P MMOs like Ragnarok Online, Rose online, Dragon Saga and Mabinogi go who knows.
I expected this to be yet another QQ post about F2P games, but you surprised me and actualy I fully agree with you. +1
Still reading the rest of the thread (great job OP, I fully agree with it) but this just made me so happy! *tear*
Obviously my wallet doesn't think so but w/e it is KOTOR!
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Very Analysis what i had in mind from last year .
The only problem you are forgeting is the NET has evolved .
While the fanatasy genre chases the excisting mmo crowd .
Games like SWTOR chases the alternative or older audience .
The younger will come , see WoW they always flock to a product where there is mass of people .
Younger people dont like a failing small community , they just want to be part of a BIG community .
Farmville (biggest online community worldwide)
The whole trick is to get those Big Online money spending community into MMORPG .
Same way Blizzard succeeded in WoW
The MMORPG crowd or market is too small , its the uncharted population of the net (especially with now beter computers and viber optics ) you want .
For 2011 going to be a interesting year none the less , as 2010 went as I in my mind predicted .
So lets see if GW2 is going to be delayed till 2012 (thats my suspicion) .
Only one currently on target is Rift and SWTOR , Tera is on target in asian market , but dont know about westernising .
How long it would take , lauching Tera without having it accomodate Western audience could be its downfall .
(western market and asian market are two different concept , yes some of us love to read manga , doesn´t mean majority does )
If you're looking for an untapped base for MMORPGs, you're looking at it from the wrong perspective.
WoW tapped into society as a whole. Hell, they're advertised on TV. Everybody knows about MMOs now.
Since WoW, there have only been specific "niche" markets to tap into. FaceBook games like Farmville and so many others have tapped into the massive, free to play, easy game with real money (or not) market most recently.
I think there are few (niche) markets to tap into anymore. The only place to go anymore is to expand what exists. To make it better, and not just a little. The only thing to do is advance it in leaps and bounds. The big companies have advanced only in marketting, to the point of building their games around it. Only small start-ups have tried to advance physics, but failed because they just didn't have the funds to make a good game overall. The newest successes have been simple freebies like Farmville with marketting tricks like "FtP". MMO's have stagnated as far as advancement.
There are ample places to advance in.
AI
Exploration
Social (player governments (laws and politics), world trade, meaningful warfare, etc.)
World interaction and terrain deformation
These are the primary aspects that can be advanced. Other than that, there's nothing new out there.
Once upon a time....
OH excellent reply , no seriously very well written and i wish i could write like that .
You just forgot one thing , Blizzard launched the mmo on the right time , when people were moving from dial up to ADSL and Viber Optic Cables aside from people having just upgraded the computers .
If blizzard launched WoW 2 years earlier , it would have been a huge disaster , cause people couldn´t stay connected long enough .
The 4 places to improve in i can discuss (i am not argueing , cause you have valid points)
1 AI = yes tougher AI doesn´t hurt , but you cannot make AI unbeatable (Some F2P did that and it was no fun )
Example you can make MOB jump always to the players back arc/ out of line of sight / or run away and get help , but if 1000 mobs did that it only cause frustrations.
One of the reasons AI must not be too dumb , but sadly also not too clever . so smart AI mobs needs to be used sparingly .
2 Explorations = sadly its a thing not used anymore , why every MMO has tons of exploration points .
Just most people are not interested in it anymore . imagine you could level by explorations (which is possible in wow)
Most people dont bother with it , explorations as finding rare stuff is nowadays impossible , since everything is out on the net , example I need a rare beast , i cannot find it , after in the past 6 hours , i give up after 2 hours and google it .
This is a huge difference from 7 years ago , where people kept there secrets and you need to find out yourself .
3 Social this is a aspect i find really important , but sadly the NET has evolved into LEAVE ME ALONE, AND LET ME DO MY STUFF .
Look i am not argueing with you , cause i respect your post , but how many will come along and just put useless statements.
Social aspect i found is the best in small MMORPGs and small community , sadly those tend to die out so fast.
Cause simply put drama die out with hurting people in real life , instead of in the end laughing about it .
And saying well played or acted ! , people get hurt for no reasons .
4 World interaction and terrain deformation , you are right on the money , thats what City of Heroes did , what Blizzard is doing now . this is what all MMORPG in the future has to work on .
No longer does the player has no impact on decisions or just move along . Phasing is the key to that .
And its really working .
Look no gloom or doom , even if my post sounds like that .
Its that the first 3 points , untill somebody comes up with a brilliant strategy to implement it .
Without upsetting the balance of RL (or people feeling ) you can elvove that .
Maybe putting in a GM´s theatre squad or whatever will be a hit in the near future , and people accept those are PC played by a professional group , who you can interact and kill if you like it .
Only time can tell .
And an excellent reply by you, Drake-hound.
I completely agree on WoW's timing. But slightly different. WoW worked on the connectivity factor, and made it better then it's predecessors. So, this is on top of your comment, and yes, a big reason for their success. Timing is everything. Had WoW been made years later, and someone else done what they did, that other game would be what we talk about now.
"yes tougher AI doesn´t hurt , but you cannot make AI unbeatable"
Completely agree. A game developer once said that the biggest problem with AI is making it beatable. But I think there's plenty of possibility in making AI that depends on what the NPC perceives, by skill and chance, and then giving that AI a weighted choice to make based on what it perceives. This can simulate intelligence very well while allowing for "mistakes" and "knowledge" too.
On your Exploration comments...the way games are made is why it doesn't work. There is no meaning to exploration these days. It needs to have meaningful discovery. In these repetitive quest driven games, you just can't have any meaning to exploration or anything else, except badges of various nature. But if a game were a Sandbox, imagine AI as I described above where the NPC loot you if you die, and store this loot in a secret room that they made. Now, if you discover this secret room, you find a horde of treasure. And this can be played out all over a game world. Along with all kinds of other content for discovery.
I can see your point on social game play. But I think games need to help players grow up a little, and learn social skills. They've (the games) caved. Bad choice.
On world interaction, etc. I think "phasing" is just another form of "instances". And I see them as very bad for the genre. They remove the "persistent" and the "massive".
Yes, only time will tell. But I think that the gaming community as a whole has evolved a little from the primarily new gamers who've been "wowed" (pardon the pun), and are now asking "is there nothing more?"
Once upon a time....
AI and exploration points made excellent sense .
Random tough epic NPC that are hard to beat , and steal your items .
If recovering or kill those NPC , you have change of gaining more or regaining your items .
Maybe choices are what can change a lot in current MMORPG .
Consequence Choices , not static no penalty choices , this would solve the social aspect .
In teaching Youth there is no gain ALL , and no penalty .
Sorry i have to think , cause honestly maybe its time for a MMORPG to release a product .
With REAL cold hard fact choices , and if people moan thats no fun .
You make decisions , nobody else did for you , mistakes happens , but you live by the consequences of it .
Well i dont know if thats the answer to solving a lot of MMO issues , i do know SWTOR wont be that sadly
.
Cause generation is not ready for it .
But i think maybe the next GEN MMO should implement that , it does help tougher AI , Tougher Exploration .
You make the choice , you accept the reward and consequences .
Instead of time versus risk calculations .
But the issue is more who dares to develop such untried concept , now its all time versus risk calculations .
With no penalty if you make the wrong choice , you only pay time .
The part of exploration that tends to get overlooked is the step between 'go into the wilderness' and 'found a wonderous treasure'. How do I go about finding that secret stash? Do I just wander randomly, hoping to hit the jackpot and hit a hidden cave that will disapear when I am done with it? Do I play some sort of tracking mini-game to find where the location is? If you do make this step interesting AND scalable to so that other players can also participate then your exploration systm will be a dud.
"Scalability" and similar nonsense has absolutely no place in any of my comments.
This is just one idea for some meaningful exploration reward. One among many. Why are you thinking so gamey? In this case, it's purely a search to overcome however the stash is hidden. If it's a secret door hidden by camouflage, then it's a check against a used skill of searching and/or perception. *You look at* > *what do you see?* > *skill check or visual cue or alternate system*. Or maybe it's a magical illusion or portal, requiring some magical means to detect and/or overcome it.
I just threw that out there so that people could see that sometimes, once a system is built in the right sort of game, the GMs don't even have to do anything as it self propogates throughout the game world, balanced by successes/failures all on it's own.
But by NO means is that the only thing I'd do to give exploration meaning.
Once upon a time....