i think some are missing the point on cash shops and only see it as a money grab. There are several types of "cash shop" formats out there especially on consoles. Look at the games that have downloadable content that you have to pay a price to get to add-on to a game. I just have no idea why it bothers everyone so much.
"You think this "A" stands for France?" Captain America
Does the presence of a cash shop with some random items really screw your experience? Does spending a few extra bucks a month really bother you that much?
On top of a $50-60 box AND a $15 sub fee and likely paid expansions... YES that is too much.
And sooner or later SOE will put in items that do "screw with your experience" in the cash shop because history has shown they have in all their other games.
They will take all the money they can get away with. $15/mo should be enough for the extra content, i.e. items and costumes that they make and put in, outside of an expansion.
When players stop tolerating this stuff, companies will stop trying to get away with it, at their expense.
Although I understand your argument, I simply don't agree.
Yes, they are obviously a business and yes, they are trying to make as much money as possible. But in this case, I honestly believe they are justified in trying to make a little more money.
They deserve it. The developers deserve it.
How much is your enjoyment worth per hour?
Personally, when I get into an MMO, I'm playing at least 10-20+ hours a week. A $50 box + $15/month + extras....that's nothing. Cheap. Horribly cheap entertainment.
The reason why we're seeing all these games adding cash shops is because they are trying to make a decent profit off their hard work. By the way, that profit is usually immediately invested in making another game or trying to make the current games better.
I know that we're used to getting things for free or cheap on the internet, but there are some things that are worth the money. Gaming is one of them.
Then we will have to disagree.
The economics of MMOs is that they cost almost nothing to run after the initial development and launch is done. Several developers have come to this site and said that very thing, in not so many words. It is why GW can run with no sub fee at all. So $15/mo pays for a LOT of development time after the game is several months old, because most of the developers have moved on to other projects or are working on an expansion that will pay for their time. After that, it is bandwith and server space.
And frankly, with the crap MMOs that have been put out lately, developers don't "deserve" a damn thing. They can get what they earn, same as any other company. MMO companies are not special, most are not even stand alone companies anymore, but divisions in an entertainment conglomerate.
Companies are adding cash shops in their games for the simple purpose of sucking the most money out of customers before they quit. They know better than anyone that the average player plays X months and moves on. So they are trying to cash in to the greatest extent possible. That's it. And that a certain portion of the customer base will tolerate it.
Others will not.
STO has a payment model viturally identical to this game. Does Cryptic deserve box price + $15/mo + cash shop for that POS? The market has answered with a resounding "NO!". That game has a very low population, made up of many who bought lifetime subs, and the game itself was recently selling for $2.50 not a year after launch. Why did the game crash so hard? In part, because they were overcharging people for an inferior product. And the market voted with its feet.
What will happen here will shortly be seen. But no one is asking for "free" so much as what should be included for monthly sub fee or don't have one. And developers want to give the customer the least amount of content and service for that sub fee and take people for more. Why?
STO has a payment model viturally identical to this game. Does Cryptic deserve box price + $15/mo + cash shop for that POS? The market has answered with a resounding "NO!". That game has a very low population, made up of many who bought lifetime subs, and the game itself was recently selling for $2.50 not a year after launch. Why did the game crash so hard? In part, because they were overcharging people for an inferior product. And the market voted with its feet.
I heard they still make good money tho, since the mediocre POS games they release on an annual basis cost next to nothing to develop and are almost immediately put into maintenance mode. Ahh, Cryptari, those little rascals!
But look, as far as I'm concerned, people can have their goddamn cash shops. SOE can have a whole subdivision work on shop exclusives. What matters to me is that I still get my money's worth out of my sub. In a superhero-MMO that includes good, new costume parts, and more than just, like, 5 pieces a year.
I like that so many believe that once you buy a video game of any kind...you are forever entitled to any extra content that is ever created. I kind of understand how a monthly subbed mmo might make you think this is the case....but it is not. Monthly subs are for server access as far as I'm concerned..without the server..your copy of Cataclysm or DCUO is useless. In the old days..from cartridges and floppies to early dvd games...you buy the game and that was it. Gaming has changed ..as we all know....and so has the manner in which we can pay for and enjoy games. I have no problem with shops...since I have no illusions of entitlement. I wish i could pay for an MMo and just play without temptations of a cash shop..but ultimately it's my decision to buy stuff. I'm not going to give up a fun and enjoyable game just because it has an optional cash shop.
And it is our decision not to buy this game and warn others about what is going on.
You want to give more and more money to the devs, go right ahead. But I dont see why I should pay more for the exact same service that I got from other MMORPGs ten years ago.
Btw, gaming has not changed. There are tons of games, the majority, that does not cost a dime after you purchased it. That is still the norm, this is just greed.
I agree with Yamota here.
BarCrow is playing the "sense of entitlement" card to put down people who don't want to buy a product with [sub] + [cash shop]. This card is played to insult people who prefer (and state this preference) to purchase an inclusive package game for various reasons. This is a relevant consumer point of view. This loaded term (entitlement) is a spillover from conservative politics into a discussion about a digital product being offered for sale to the public. It also implies that the person who does not have a "sense of entitlement" is more intelligent, clear-headed, and realistic in making judgements.
Let's look at the cash shop this way: Assume you go to buy a car and the basic price is 35K (whatever currency). Then the dealer says if you want spare tires, jack, rear-view mirror on the passenger side, etc., then you need to pay extra in the cash shop. You can still drive the car without a spare tire, but it is more convenient if you buy one. This is a valid business strategy a car manufacturer or dealer may choose.
Consumers do have a right to prefer, however, a car that sells for 35K and includes both rear-view mirrors and a spare tire, especially if this is the past industry practice and consumers don't want to see it change. Companies don't have to listen to consumers, of course.
Besides that, the extra revenue is not going to fun some small group of developers. It is going to feed Warner Brothers and Sony Entertainment Online. It is purely a strategy to milk as much money out of this product as possible. There is nothing wrong with attempting that strategy, just as there is nothing wrong with consumers voicing valid objections to such a strategy.
BarCrow, do you think consumers voicing their opinions reflects a "sense of entitlement"?
Not at all...but I also have opinions which is one thing I believe everyone is entitled to express.
.. Funny how you basically define what you believe was the intent of my words and come to the conclusion that I am trying to insult people who believe otherwise. I guarantee you that I lack the superiority complex you apparently think I possess. When buying games, It is my preference to purchase an "all inclusive" package too....but if they come up with content later i'm not going to cry foul. I also don't understand how someone else buying a flying dragon mount in the store makes the one you earned worthless (as far as virtual goods go). If I climbed a mountain (not that my fat arse would make it without a heart attack) got to the top and got a free shirt at the gift shop stating "I climbed that mountain". Is it somehow meaningless now because my neighbor bought the same shirt off the internet. I know I climbed the mountain...does it matter what anyone else thinks? "Entitlement" wasn't a word that spilled over from the conservative political view that you've attached to me...it is merely the word that best fit. Sorry if my words hurt anyone..guess I'll just throw sticks and stones next time.
@ BarCrow: Okay. Alright. I don't want to insult you and you do show a good sense of humor and class in your response. If I insulted you, it was indeed hypocritical on my part and I'm sorry about that.
Cutting to the chase: Basically, I just don't like cash shops because I don't want to be nickel and dimed. It's just a matter of preference. I would just prefer to pay for a premium product with a flat fee or a monthly sub and leave it at that. It's just a preference of a segment of the market and I hope we can continue to have games and payment methods we like.
I don't care what others buy in the cash shop as long as the game still keeps what I -- very subjectively -- consider the integrity of the game. That means players "earn stuff" that is meaningful within the game. Buying it at the cash shop lessens the integrity of the game -- just in my entirely subjective opinion, for whatever it's worth. It makes the game feel like a cheap cash grab, and that's what I don't like.
lool mmmy turn at this lol ok here goes i dont minde cash shops only if it dont help beat other players up to make it unbalanced like the one with the most cash wins to be unstopable kinda that would be every bad i been to a game like that it was free to play to but for a pay to play well i dont minde it if it for xp boost for set amount of time or fluff and stuff to make you look cool or mounts of speical items to have fun wearing thats fine nothing wrong with that long as they help add to content and other game related stuff if they do ??????
i under stand all those diff options yes companies have to make cash and all that for bad reasons or good
good point on if players stop tolerating it what companies do
dont worry guys and ladies what comes around goes around what game companies do for one day they will have to answer what they done
there lost of games out there to try to get our fix : ) to enjoy with or with out cash shops some will love it some with hate it can't pls every one hehehehe
soo happy gaming people in what ever game you deside to play : )
lool mmmy turn at this lol ok here goes i dont minde cash shops only if it dont help beat other players up to make it unbalanced like the one with the most cash wins to be unstopable kinda that would be every bad i been to a game like that it was free to play to but for a pay to play well i dont minde it if it for xp boost for set amount of time or fluff and stuff to make you look cool or mounts of speical items to have fun wearing thats fine nothing wrong with that long as they help add to content and other game related stuff if they do ??????
i under stand all those diff options yes companies have to make cash and all that for bad reasons or good
good point on if players stop tolerating it what companies do
dont worry guys and ladies what comes around goes around what game companies do for one day they will have to answer what they done
there lost of games out there to try to get our fix : ) to enjoy with or with out cash shops some will love it some with hate it can't pls every one hehehehe
soo happy gaming people in what ever game you deside to play : )
What the hey? Next time, try to make it readable. What the hell is this?!
As for the cash shops, I find it crazy that we pay a montly fee and not having access to all content. Yes, fluff is content too. Is it game breaking? I don't know yet.
I do not make decisions to play games based on the access to things I would not buy anyway. I am not interested in a cash shop I have almost never bought anything from a cash shop even in Guildwars. I might though the bank slots I need to get soon.
Cosmetic things I won't get. There were the most tempting in City of X since I loved the costumes but again I never indulged. Will I actually not buy a game with a cash shop yes if it impacts gameplay like the incense thing in Allods then yes I will not do that but in every other case I will buy the game and pay a sub as long as I like the game. I look around me at what the current world offers in terms of services and goods and in every industry someone is trying to get more out of you so why should this genre be any different. The only time I will not buy the game is if the cash shop becomes a necessity. Otherwise for me I will play games because it is a hobby for me and I take it with a little shenanigans thrown in.
STO has a payment model viturally identical to this game. Does Cryptic deserve box price + $15/mo + cash shop for that POS? The market has answered with a resounding "NO!". That game has a very low population, made up of many who bought lifetime subs, and the game itself was recently selling for $2.50 not a year after launch. Why did the game crash so hard? In part, because they were overcharging people for an inferior product. And the market voted with its feet.
I heard they still make good money tho, since the mediocre POS games they release on an annual basis cost next to nothing to develop and are almost immediately put into maintenance mode. Ahh, Cryptari, those little rascals!
2 or the top 3 guys on STO got "fired" more or less. Craptic did not get the 20 million dollar bonus for sales numbers they were bragging about before release. Many/most of their remaining players are lifetimes sub holders (suckers, and a warning to us all on the dangers of buying a lifetime sub) and yearly subs that are about to expire. Cryptic's reputation is in the toliet for the hack job they did on the IP and game mechanics, and the CEO basically came out and said they were giving up on the "MMO" bussiness. STO is expected to go F2P just as soon as they can without getting sued by lifetime sub holders. And all of this after less than 1 year after release.
They may be cash flow positive, but somehow I don't think that is "success" when it comes along with all the stuff I mentioned above.
STO has a payment model viturally identical to this game. Does Cryptic deserve box price + $15/mo + cash shop for that POS? The market has answered with a resounding "NO!". That game has a very low population, made up of many who bought lifetime subs, and the game itself was recently selling for $2.50 not a year after launch. Why did the game crash so hard? In part, because they were overcharging people for an inferior product. And the market voted with its feet.
I heard they still make good money tho, since the mediocre POS games they release on an annual basis cost next to nothing to develop and are almost immediately put into maintenance mode. Ahh, Cryptari, those little rascals!
2 or the top 3 guys on STO got "fired" more or less. Craptic did not get the 20 million dollar bonus for sales numbers they were bragging about before release. Many/most of their remaining players are lifetimes sub holders (suckers, and a warning to us all on the dangers of buying a lifetime sub) and yearly subs that are about to expire. Cryptic's reputation is in the toliet for the hack job they did on the IP and game mechanics, and the CEO basically came out and said they were giving up on the "MMO" bussiness. STO is expected to go F2P just as soon as they can without getting sued by lifetime sub holders. And all of this after less than 1 year after release.
They may be cash flow positive, but somehow I don't think that is "success" when it comes along with all the stuff I mentioned above.
I dunno, it seems to be all part the plan. Base game on successfull IP, develop and release cheap game, put on maintenance mode, get people to sign up and buy stuff, wait for them to realize it kinda sucks, crash and burn, release new game, go f2p.
I don't think they give two fucks about their reputation, as long as the cash keeps pouring in. Heck, they're going to release another freaking game this year.
Seriously, you guys need to start being a little bit more understanding and forgiving of these developers/publishers when they try to figure out a workable payment system.
MMO's are extremely difficult and costly to make, especially a AAA title like DCUO. The genre is practically overflowing with competitors and it's really tough for a game to be successful.
Gaming is one of the cheapest and most entertaining ways to have fun. The developers have to work their asses off to make these games, often working ridiculous hours.
If the devs/publishers can't make money, they are going to be far less likely to fund future projects and to take risks. That is bad, bad, bad news for a genre that is already packed with WoW clones.
Does the presence of a cash shop with some random items really screw your experience? Does spending a few extra bucks a month really bother you that much?
Maybe people will be more forgiving when these companies stop wasting development time working on cash shop systems and work on their damn games so they are ready for release. Maybe if they spent more time focused on making their game fun and functional things wouldn't be such a massive risk.
Every man hour spent on creating, coding, decision making, evaluating, modeling, etc on things that go into the cash shop is a man hour that is lost towards development of actual gameplay. Think about the things that didn't make it into DCU even with the games delay. Light and other power sets, secret identity system, more missions, more costume options, etc.
MMOs have a massive profit margin, so no one should shed one tear or dig deep in their pockets to give charity to mmo developers. Make a great game and players will beat down the door to give them money. Cut corners and nickle dime players to death and players will walk away.
A lot of industries work their asses off and invest piles of money. MMO developers are no different and deserve no special favors. I just can't understand actually advocating less content for more money as if that will somehow benefit players or that they are somehow at fault for not taking it easy on this type of practice.
Well said Daffid011. Build a truly quality game and players will come.
I like that so many believe that once you buy a video game of any kind...you are forever entitled to any extra content that is ever created. I kind of understand how a monthly subbed mmo might make you think this is the case....but it is not. Monthly subs are for server access as far as I'm concerned..without the server..your copy of Cataclysm or DCUO is useless. In the old days..from cartridges and floppies to early dvd games...you buy the game and that was it. Gaming has changed ..as we all know....and so has the manner in which we can pay for and enjoy games. I have no problem with shops...since I have no illusions of entitlement. I wish i could pay for an MMo and just play without temptations of a cash shop..but ultimately it's my decision to buy stuff. I'm not going to give up a fun and enjoyable game just because it has an optional cash shop.
And it is our decision not to buy this game and warn others about what is going on.
You want to give more and more money to the devs, go right ahead. But I dont see why I should pay more for the exact same service that I got from other MMORPGs ten years ago.
Btw, gaming has not changed. There are tons of games, the majority, that does not cost a dime after you purchased it. That is still the norm, this is just greed.
I agree with Yamota here.
BarCrow is playing the "sense of entitlement" card to put down people who don't want to buy a product with [sub] + [cash shop]. This card is played to insult people who prefer (and state this preference) to purchase an inclusive package game for various reasons. This is a relevant consumer point of view. This loaded term (entitlement) is a spillover from conservative politics into a discussion about a digital product being offered for sale to the public. It also implies that the person who does not have a "sense of entitlement" is more intelligent, clear-headed, and realistic in making judgements.
Let's look at the cash shop this way: Assume you go to buy a car and the basic price is 35K (whatever currency). Then the dealer says if you want spare tires, jack, rear-view mirror on the passenger side, etc., then you need to pay extra in the cash shop. You can still drive the car without a spare tire, but it is more convenient if you buy one. This is a valid business strategy a car manufacturer or dealer may choose.
Consumers do have a right to prefer, however, a car that sells for 35K and includes both rear-view mirrors and a spare tire, especially if this is the past industry practice and consumers don't want to see it change. Companies don't have to listen to consumers, of course.
Besides that, the extra revenue is not going to fun some small group of developers. It is going to feed Warner Brothers and Sony Entertainment Online. It is purely a strategy to milk as much money out of this product as possible. There is nothing wrong with attempting that strategy, just as there is nothing wrong with consumers voicing valid objections to such a strategy.
BarCrow, do you think consumers voicing their opinions reflects a "sense of entitlement"?
Not at all...but I also have opinions which is one thing I believe everyone is entitled to express.
.. Funny how you basically define what you believe was the intent of my words and come to the conclusion that I am trying to insult people who believe otherwise. I guarantee you that I lack the superiority complex you apparently think I possess. When buying games, It is my preference to purchase an "all inclusive" package too....but if they come up with content later i'm not going to cry foul. I also don't understand how someone else buying a flying dragon mount in the store makes the one you earned worthless (as far as virtual goods go). If I climbed a mountain (not that my fat arse would make it without a heart attack) got to the top and got a free shirt at the gift shop stating "I climbed that mountain". Is it somehow meaningless now because my neighbor bought the same shirt off the internet. I know I climbed the mountain...does it matter what anyone else thinks? "Entitlement" wasn't a word that spilled over from the conservative political view that you've attached to me...it is merely the word that best fit. Sorry if my words hurt anyone..guess I'll just throw sticks and stones next time.
@ BarCrow: Okay. Alright. I don't want to insult you and you do show a good sense of humor and class in your response. If I insulted you, it was indeed hypocritical on my part and I'm sorry about that.
Cutting to the chase: Basically, I just don't like cash shops because I don't want to be nickel and dimed. It's just a matter of preference. I would just prefer to pay for a premium product with a flat fee or a monthly sub and leave it at that. It's just a preference of a segment of the market and I hope we can continue to have games and payment methods we like.
I don't care what others buy in the cash shop as long as the game still keeps what I -- very subjectively -- consider the integrity of the game. That means players "earn stuff" that is meaningful within the game. Buying it at the cash shop lessens the integrity of the game -- just in my entirely subjective opinion, for whatever it's worth. It makes the game feel like a cheap cash grab, and that's what I don't like.
Fair enough....Lord knows i should hate cash shops. Since I started playing LOTRO F2P (I was subbed for a few years off and on) I have certainly spent WAY TOO MUCH MONEY that probably should have gone for rent.Lol. Take care.
Guys when you say "fluff" items that is part of the game. I myself do not care about fluff items. My wife on the other hand LOVES fluff. It is one of the main reasons she plays.
Why is it ok to charge her for the part of the game that she enjoys? If she pays the same sub as me why does she not have access to all the features she likes without paying more for it?
In response to the person that talked about the additional content to single player games. These are mostly considered mini expansions. I wont buy them period. Anyone remember Dragon Age and there "mini" expansion right off the bat? That was content that was obviously meant to be in the game at launch and they got such bad PR for it they made it "free".
If you the customers do not draw the line no one else is going too.
The PTP model is very profitable if you have a good product. How do you all think this genre came about? It sure as hell was not with a cash shop.
Yea but all this cash shop stuff is essentially the same as the crap they sell for say Little Big Planet (or LBP2). Each of those skins is like 2 bucks.. but people snatch'm up. SOME of the content like the level design stuff is well worth the 3-4 bucks IF you want to. The skins are silly but I've bought a couple just cause I like the look (yes, my sackboy runs around with some Pirates of the Carribean gear and Magneto's cape). It is what it is.
The fact that people defend this cash shop bullshit, let alone cash shop+sub, make me physically ill without exageration. I can't imagine the ignorance...
The problem is there is no right or wrong answer to this issue of cash shops in sub games, different people feel differently about it and only you, as an individual customer, can decide whether to play and continue subscribing. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and and Lord know's I've complained loud enough against cash shops to no avail.
I hate cash shops in sub games, I've watched the impact first hand at what it does to a game (EQ2) and I've watched SOE break promise after promise with regards to the scope of the items put in the store, I've watched as the ingame content dried up and anything decent ended up on the ingame store. I've watched as the 'Microtransaction' went upwards in price, I mean $25 for a mount, for most people that is not 'Micro'! thats half the price of a game. SOE have the most expensive ingame store I have seen in a subscription based game.
Also, part of the problem is what even defines 'Cosmetic'. Recently they introduced a new vampire race to EQ2 and some people argue it is cosmetic, I think a new race is more than crossing the line and goes way beyond being cosmetic as well as something that should be included with either the sub or at worst an expansion pack (SOE were charging something in the region of $60 for the race, Bat form and Vampire house which is more than the cost of a full on expansion). I actually cancelled by EQ2 subs the day they put the cash store in, primarily because it did not sit well with me shoehorning it into such a well established game.
Finally, I have still decided to go ahead and play DCUO, I'm actually really enjoying the game. My attitude to the store is this, I fully expect SOE to screw people over sooner or later, it is inevitable, it could be months or years from now but they will cross that line in an effort to fleace people of more money for something that should be included with the subscription. I accept that SOE as a company will do this, I've bought into the game accepting this so when it happens I will not be on here or any other boards raging like mad about it, I will just move on if I haven't already. At least this way the only thing SOE can do is pleasantly suprise me if for the first time they actually implement a fairly priced store stocked with limited 'cosmetic' items whilst continuing to deliver a steady stream of new content for just the cost of the subscription. Fingers crossed eh
I blame XBox Live for the rise of micro-transactions, cash shops, rmt's etc. There was a time when "DLC" was released for free but XBox Live showed people were willing to pay for what we were already getting for free.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
There is no thing such as -fluff items- creating an item = dev time = included in subs so they are charging you TWICE for something that should be included in the monthly fee. My GF also loves this fluff stuff especially the miols in Aion I have told her that they are a ripp off she understands that but I would love EARNING them with her, I am not going to pay 10 $ for something I should be able to get for free. So now we are waiting till our accounts are 12 months old in order to get the damn Miol for her.
$oe to me is more and more becoming Craptic push out shallow games and charage top $ for them and hope some people are stupid enough to pay for it. Introducing new races, pets,mounts is for sure not fluff, merchandise that gameplay for real $ on top of subs.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I find it amusing that the CO cash shop was though to be a money grubbing exercise that was implimented because the studio was short on cash and to small/inexperienced to make an MMO that was sub only.
Now we have the much larger entity of SOE doing the exact same thing. I suppose the reasoning is being etirely attributed to greed. Could we be looking at an emerging standard for business models in the MMO industry?
Fluff items are fluff items. I will say that the bought store items in CO are not as impressive to me as the ones that are stock and drops so that really never bothered me. When F2P hits, subscribers will be getting 400 bucks a month so that definitely takes the sting out of it.
I wonder if DC will will begin to sell styles through the shop? Both DC and CO sell/will sell consumables. Heals and buffs mostly. This is not so bad in CO as i can cfaft most of that stuff anyway so as not to spend to much in-game cash. I'm sure when DC adds crafting and the AH it will become less of an issue as long as consumables can be crafted too.
No mention of the 'monthly updates' being in the cash shop and that's a good thing as CO also offeres it APs free to subscribers.
I don't have an issue with MT really but I understand why some feel that others will be able to pay for an advantage. If it turns out to be just fluff items and consumables, will it really matter if someone buys something you don't? Especially if it can be crafted or dropped off a mob? Personally I think it would be better if everything that was sold could be found some way in-game too. you could cater the the people that don't want to grind while leaving room for those that like working for it.*
*interestingly, even if it's paid for in real cash, someone had to work to make that cash so I suppose the question may be do you prefer your labour to be actual or virtual?
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy. ______________________________ "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
I find it amusing that the CO cash shop was though to be a money grubbing exercise that was implimented because the studio was short on cash and to small/inexperienced to make an MMO that was sub only. Now we have the much larger entity of SOE doing the exact same thing. I suppose the reasoning is being etirely attributed to greed. Could we be looking at an emerging standard for business models in the MMO industry? Fluff items are fluff items. I will say that the bought store items in CO are not as impressive to me as the ones that are stock and drops so that really never bothered me. When F2P hits, subscribers will be getting 400 bucks a month so that definitely takes the sting out of it. I wonder if DC will will begin to sell styles through the shop? Both DC and CO sell/will sell consumables. Heals and buffs mostly. This is not so bad in CO as i can cfaft most of that stuff anyway so as not to spend to much in-game cash. I'm sure when DC adds crafting and the AH it will become less of an issue as long as consumables can be crafted too. No mention of the 'monthly updates' being in the cash shop and that's a good thing as CO also offeres it APs free to subscribers. I don't have an issue with MT really but I understand why some feel that others will be able to pay for an advantage. If it turns out to be just fluff items and consumables, will it really matter if someone buys something you don't? Especially if it can be crafted or dropped off a mob? Personally I think it would be better if everything that was sold could be found some way in-game too. you could cater the the people that don't want to grind while leaving room for those that like working for it.*
*interestingly, even if it's paid for in real cash, someone had to work to make that cash so I suppose the question may be do you prefer your labour to be actual or virtual?
Well the thing is, there aren't fluff items, every item, db entry, cash shop needs someone to make them thats why you usually have two different payment modells P2P and P2W aka F2P. Hybrid modells are the bigggest rip off I have ever seen.
I would ask myself why do I have to pay a sub (including -FLUFF-) and have to throw out real money for virtual stuff? Thats just rediculous and greedy as hell. Publishers are using this crap like "more money for game development" which is utter BS.
It does matter to me because its cheating in my mind. If you want something ingame work for it, period.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Why does everyone sound so surprised? SOE and DCUO have already announced that there will be a cash shop for some cosmetic items. This provides a useful tool to continue to develop litle tiny costumes additions while FUNDING the actual development of further content. You don't NEED to pay for it.
Frankly, with all you gloom and doom types, you would think that this cash shop inclusion would be AWESOME as it makes F2P that much easier to move forward with.
(rolls eyes) WoW has a cash shop... you gunna harp on that too?
I think what people are annoyed with is the lack of customization in the game and basically forcing people to spend addition real money in order to make a semi-custom looking super hero....
MMO companies are all jumping on this band wagon and unless people complain about it, it will only get worse. Just a matter of time before they charge you each time you go into a dungeon. That's pretty much where were heading.
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i think some are missing the point on cash shops and only see it as a money grab. There are several types of "cash shop" formats out there especially on consoles. Look at the games that have downloadable content that you have to pay a price to get to add-on to a game. I just have no idea why it bothers everyone so much.
"You think this "A" stands for France?" Captain America
Then we will have to disagree.
The economics of MMOs is that they cost almost nothing to run after the initial development and launch is done. Several developers have come to this site and said that very thing, in not so many words. It is why GW can run with no sub fee at all. So $15/mo pays for a LOT of development time after the game is several months old, because most of the developers have moved on to other projects or are working on an expansion that will pay for their time. After that, it is bandwith and server space.
And frankly, with the crap MMOs that have been put out lately, developers don't "deserve" a damn thing. They can get what they earn, same as any other company. MMO companies are not special, most are not even stand alone companies anymore, but divisions in an entertainment conglomerate.
Companies are adding cash shops in their games for the simple purpose of sucking the most money out of customers before they quit. They know better than anyone that the average player plays X months and moves on. So they are trying to cash in to the greatest extent possible. That's it. And that a certain portion of the customer base will tolerate it.
Others will not.
STO has a payment model viturally identical to this game. Does Cryptic deserve box price + $15/mo + cash shop for that POS? The market has answered with a resounding "NO!". That game has a very low population, made up of many who bought lifetime subs, and the game itself was recently selling for $2.50 not a year after launch. Why did the game crash so hard? In part, because they were overcharging people for an inferior product. And the market voted with its feet.
What will happen here will shortly be seen. But no one is asking for "free" so much as what should be included for monthly sub fee or don't have one. And developers want to give the customer the least amount of content and service for that sub fee and take people for more. Why?
Because people let them.
I heard they still make good money tho, since the mediocre POS games they release on an annual basis cost next to nothing to develop and are almost immediately put into maintenance mode. Ahh, Cryptari, those little rascals!
But look, as far as I'm concerned, people can have their goddamn cash shops. SOE can have a whole subdivision work on shop exclusives. What matters to me is that I still get my money's worth out of my sub. In a superhero-MMO that includes good, new costume parts, and more than just, like, 5 pieces a year.
@ BarCrow: Okay. Alright. I don't want to insult you and you do show a good sense of humor and class in your response. If I insulted you, it was indeed hypocritical on my part and I'm sorry about that.
Cutting to the chase: Basically, I just don't like cash shops because I don't want to be nickel and dimed. It's just a matter of preference. I would just prefer to pay for a premium product with a flat fee or a monthly sub and leave it at that. It's just a preference of a segment of the market and I hope we can continue to have games and payment methods we like.
I don't care what others buy in the cash shop as long as the game still keeps what I -- very subjectively -- consider the integrity of the game. That means players "earn stuff" that is meaningful within the game. Buying it at the cash shop lessens the integrity of the game -- just in my entirely subjective opinion, for whatever it's worth. It makes the game feel like a cheap cash grab, and that's what I don't like.
lool mmmy turn at this lol ok here goes i dont minde cash shops only if it dont help beat other players up to make it unbalanced like the one with the most cash wins to be unstopable kinda that would be every bad i been to a game like that it was free to play to but for a pay to play well i dont minde it if it for xp boost for set amount of time or fluff and stuff to make you look cool or mounts of speical items to have fun wearing thats fine nothing wrong with that long as they help add to content and other game related stuff if they do ??????
i under stand all those diff options yes companies have to make cash and all that for bad reasons or good
good point on if players stop tolerating it what companies do
dont worry guys and ladies what comes around goes around what game companies do for one day they will have to answer what they done
there lost of games out there to try to get our fix : ) to enjoy with or with out cash shops some will love it some with hate it can't pls every one hehehehe
soo happy gaming people in what ever game you deside to play : )
What the hey? Next time, try to make it readable. What the hell is this?!
As for the cash shops, I find it crazy that we pay a montly fee and not having access to all content. Yes, fluff is content too. Is it game breaking? I don't know yet.
I do not make decisions to play games based on the access to things I would not buy anyway. I am not interested in a cash shop I have almost never bought anything from a cash shop even in Guildwars. I might though the bank slots I need to get soon.
Cosmetic things I won't get. There were the most tempting in City of X since I loved the costumes but again I never indulged. Will I actually not buy a game with a cash shop yes if it impacts gameplay like the incense thing in Allods then yes I will not do that but in every other case I will buy the game and pay a sub as long as I like the game. I look around me at what the current world offers in terms of services and goods and in every industry someone is trying to get more out of you so why should this genre be any different. The only time I will not buy the game is if the cash shop becomes a necessity. Otherwise for me I will play games because it is a hobby for me and I take it with a little shenanigans thrown in.
2 or the top 3 guys on STO got "fired" more or less. Craptic did not get the 20 million dollar bonus for sales numbers they were bragging about before release. Many/most of their remaining players are lifetimes sub holders (suckers, and a warning to us all on the dangers of buying a lifetime sub) and yearly subs that are about to expire. Cryptic's reputation is in the toliet for the hack job they did on the IP and game mechanics, and the CEO basically came out and said they were giving up on the "MMO" bussiness. STO is expected to go F2P just as soon as they can without getting sued by lifetime sub holders. And all of this after less than 1 year after release.
They may be cash flow positive, but somehow I don't think that is "success" when it comes along with all the stuff I mentioned above.
I dunno, it seems to be all part the plan. Base game on successfull IP, develop and release cheap game, put on maintenance mode, get people to sign up and buy stuff, wait for them to realize it kinda sucks, crash and burn, release new game, go f2p.
I don't think they give two fucks about their reputation, as long as the cash keeps pouring in. Heck, they're going to release another freaking game this year.
Well said Daffid011. Build a truly quality game and players will come.
Fair enough....Lord knows i should hate cash shops. Since I started playing LOTRO F2P (I was subbed for a few years off and on) I have certainly spent WAY TOO MUCH MONEY that probably should have gone for rent.Lol. Take care.
Guys when you say "fluff" items that is part of the game. I myself do not care about fluff items. My wife on the other hand LOVES fluff. It is one of the main reasons she plays.
Why is it ok to charge her for the part of the game that she enjoys? If she pays the same sub as me why does she not have access to all the features she likes without paying more for it?
In response to the person that talked about the additional content to single player games. These are mostly considered mini expansions. I wont buy them period. Anyone remember Dragon Age and there "mini" expansion right off the bat? That was content that was obviously meant to be in the game at launch and they got such bad PR for it they made it "free".
If you the customers do not draw the line no one else is going too.
The PTP model is very profitable if you have a good product. How do you all think this genre came about? It sure as hell was not with a cash shop.
Yea but all this cash shop stuff is essentially the same as the crap they sell for say Little Big Planet (or LBP2). Each of those skins is like 2 bucks.. but people snatch'm up. SOME of the content like the level design stuff is well worth the 3-4 bucks IF you want to. The skins are silly but I've bought a couple just cause I like the look (yes, my sackboy runs around with some Pirates of the Carribean gear and Magneto's cape). It is what it is.
The fact that people defend this cash shop bullshit, let alone cash shop+sub, make me physically ill without exageration. I can't imagine the ignorance...
The problem is there is no right or wrong answer to this issue of cash shops in sub games, different people feel differently about it and only you, as an individual customer, can decide whether to play and continue subscribing. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, and and Lord know's I've complained loud enough against cash shops to no avail.
I hate cash shops in sub games, I've watched the impact first hand at what it does to a game (EQ2) and I've watched SOE break promise after promise with regards to the scope of the items put in the store, I've watched as the ingame content dried up and anything decent ended up on the ingame store. I've watched as the 'Microtransaction' went upwards in price, I mean $25 for a mount, for most people that is not 'Micro'! thats half the price of a game. SOE have the most expensive ingame store I have seen in a subscription based game.
Also, part of the problem is what even defines 'Cosmetic'. Recently they introduced a new vampire race to EQ2 and some people argue it is cosmetic, I think a new race is more than crossing the line and goes way beyond being cosmetic as well as something that should be included with either the sub or at worst an expansion pack (SOE were charging something in the region of $60 for the race, Bat form and Vampire house which is more than the cost of a full on expansion). I actually cancelled by EQ2 subs the day they put the cash store in, primarily because it did not sit well with me shoehorning it into such a well established game.
Finally, I have still decided to go ahead and play DCUO, I'm actually really enjoying the game. My attitude to the store is this, I fully expect SOE to screw people over sooner or later, it is inevitable, it could be months or years from now but they will cross that line in an effort to fleace people of more money for something that should be included with the subscription. I accept that SOE as a company will do this, I've bought into the game accepting this so when it happens I will not be on here or any other boards raging like mad about it, I will just move on if I haven't already. At least this way the only thing SOE can do is pleasantly suprise me if for the first time they actually implement a fairly priced store stocked with limited 'cosmetic' items whilst continuing to deliver a steady stream of new content for just the cost of the subscription. Fingers crossed eh
I blame XBox Live for the rise of micro-transactions, cash shops, rmt's etc. There was a time when "DLC" was released for free but XBox Live showed people were willing to pay for what we were already getting for free.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
$oe to me is more and more becoming Craptic push out shallow games and charage top $ for them and hope some people are stupid enough to pay for it. Introducing new races, pets,mounts is for sure not fluff, merchandise that gameplay for real $ on top of subs.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I find it amusing that the CO cash shop was though to be a money grubbing exercise that was implimented because the studio was short on cash and to small/inexperienced to make an MMO that was sub only.
Now we have the much larger entity of SOE doing the exact same thing. I suppose the reasoning is being etirely attributed to greed. Could we be looking at an emerging standard for business models in the MMO industry?
Fluff items are fluff items. I will say that the bought store items in CO are not as impressive to me as the ones that are stock and drops so that really never bothered me. When F2P hits, subscribers will be getting 400 bucks a month so that definitely takes the sting out of it.
I wonder if DC will will begin to sell styles through the shop? Both DC and CO sell/will sell consumables. Heals and buffs mostly. This is not so bad in CO as i can cfaft most of that stuff anyway so as not to spend to much in-game cash. I'm sure when DC adds crafting and the AH it will become less of an issue as long as consumables can be crafted too.
No mention of the 'monthly updates' being in the cash shop and that's a good thing as CO also offeres it APs free to subscribers.
I don't have an issue with MT really but I understand why some feel that others will be able to pay for an advantage. If it turns out to be just fluff items and consumables, will it really matter if someone buys something you don't? Especially if it can be crafted or dropped off a mob? Personally I think it would be better if everything that was sold could be found some way in-game too. you could cater the the people that don't want to grind while leaving room for those that like working for it.*
*interestingly, even if it's paid for in real cash, someone had to work to make that cash so I suppose the question may be do you prefer your labour to be actual or virtual?
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
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"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
Well the thing is, there aren't fluff items, every item, db entry, cash shop needs someone to make them thats why you usually have two different payment modells P2P and P2W aka F2P. Hybrid modells are the bigggest rip off I have ever seen.I would ask myself why do I have to pay a sub (including -FLUFF-) and have to throw out real money for virtual stuff? Thats just rediculous and greedy as hell. Publishers are using this crap like "more money for game development" which is utter BS.
It does matter to me because its cheating in my mind. If you want something ingame work for it, period.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I think what people are annoyed with is the lack of customization in the game and basically forcing people to spend addition real money in order to make a semi-custom looking super hero....
MMO companies are all jumping on this band wagon and unless people complain about it, it will only get worse. Just a matter of time before they charge you each time you go into a dungeon. That's pretty much where were heading.
Have the devs 100% confirmed a cash shop approach? When you visit the marketplace tab ingame its solely for redeeming codes and claiming those items from the codes - http://www.dcuniverseonline.com/gameguide/pc/#marketplace
Pretty sure the marketplace tab being in beta was what lead to this entire discussion.