For me the term "wow clone" means you always play the game within the UI at all times. No matter if you are fighting, looking at your char screen, inventory, stat screen, skill window, or any combination of the above, you are always playing within the UI.
A "non-wow clone" is a game were you interact with the world outside of the UI.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
It has to be a sandbox. A revolutionary sandbox. A revolutionary sandbox with at least 10 new features ("new" here being features that were in the first sandboxes, but since so few are made nowadays, they're "new"). A revolutionary sandbox with at least 10 new features and a mature community. And so on, and so forth, until you get your little dream game and realize, "This is never going to happen." Then, out of spite, just go back to calling everything a WoW clone.
Or, it can simply... not be a WoW clone. It's very easy. If you think that you can't make a theme park game without being a WoW clone than this genre is truly finished. Screw it, I might as well just not play MMOs anymore, they've stopped being what they are supposed to be.
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Some like to say that "There are no real wow-clones" others like to state that AoC is one. There is no encyklopedic definition to follow. It's personal opinions only, as far as I am concerned.
Some like to say that "There are no real wow-clones" others like to state that AoC is one. There is no encyklopedic definition to follow. It's personal opinions only, as far as I am concerned.
Wrong
WoW Clone
is just a term. Not to be taken Literal.
It simply synonym for "Theme Park design"
WoW killer
is a synonym for "Successful MMORPG"
If we follow this logic, then Half life is a 'Doom-clone'.
Yeah, good luck with that.
How a term is used is up to the individual and his/her opinion.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you people need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you pewople need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
Where is the line that seperates flattery from sucking up? I forget who said it but somebody said that all the companies that have made WoW clones are just copying what was done succesfully without knowing why it was done succesfully.
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you pewople need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
Where is the line that seperates flattery from sucking up? I forget who said it but somebody said that all the companies that have made WoW clones are just copying what was done succesfully without knowing why it was done succesfully.
THe reason why games like Lineage 2 and SWG(Post-NGE) fail is because the developers of those games are changing the nature of the gameplay. It would be like trying to change the direction of a river, the consequences of that is catastrophic. But for the games that are created after WoW the developers are hoping for a success that Blizzard got with WoW. What you people are forgetting is that Blizzard didnt just one day wake up and say were going to create a MMO that we guarantee will have 12 million active players in 6 years. THey created a game and put it out just like everyone else does they just happen to find the nich that works.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
After reading all this wow clone has no meaning anymore, it has been missused to such a degree that all games are wow clone from everquest to eve. if its mmorpg its a wow clone you would need to invent a new genre to not be labled as wow clone to some people.
I know i won't take anyone serious anymore that use the term wow clone.
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you pewople need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
Where is the line that seperates flattery from sucking up? I forget who said it but somebody said that all the companies that have made WoW clones are just copying what was done succesfully without knowing why it was done succesfully.
THe reason why games like Lineage 2 and SWG(Post-NGE) fail is because the developers of those games are changing the nature of the gameplay. It would be like trying to change the direction of a river, the consequences of that is catastrophic. But for the games that are created after WoW the developers are hoping for a success that Blizzard got with WoW. What you people are forgetting is that Blizzard didnt just one day wake up and say were going to create a MMO that we guarantee will have 12 million active players in 6 years. THey created a game and put it out just like everyone else does they just happen to find the nich that works.
Yes, but Blizzard got lucky with how succesfull WoW became. The mechanics and gameplay style were part of WoW's success, but not the reason WoW is now dominating the genre. Probably one of the biggest part of WoW's success were the die-hard Blizzard fanboys that hopped into WoW when it first came out. Then came the ads and last but definitely not least, after they really became successful WoW was featured on southpark. WoW is the juggernaut it is because it mainstreamed the genre. Like I said before, all those companies only copied the mechanics of WoW and that is why they couldn't compete with it (not to mention most of them were also bug-ridden and unfinished).
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you pewople need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
Where is the line that seperates flattery from sucking up? I forget who said it but somebody said that all the companies that have made WoW clones are just copying what was done succesfully without knowing why it was done succesfully.
THe reason why games like Lineage 2 and SWG(Post-NGE) fail is because the developers of those games are changing the nature of the gameplay. It would be like trying to change the direction of a river, the consequences of that is catastrophic. But for the games that are created after WoW the developers are hoping for a success that Blizzard got with WoW. What you people are forgetting is that Blizzard didnt just one day wake up and say were going to create a MMO that we guarantee will have 12 million active players in 6 years. THey created a game and put it out just like everyone else does they just happen to find the nich that works.
Yes, but Blizzard got lucky with how succesfull WoW became. The mechanics and gameplay style were part of WoW's success, but not the reason WoW is now dominating the genre. Probably one of the biggest part of WoW's success were the die-hard Blizzard fanboys that hopped into WoW when it first came out. Then came the ads and last but definitely not least, after they really became successful WoW was featured on southpark. WoW is the juggernaut it is because it mainstreamed the genre. Like I said before, all those companies only copied the mechanics of WoW and that is why they couldn't compete with it (not to mention most of them were also bug-ridden and unfinished).
I can name you 3 MMO's that werent created by Big Name Companies that can compete against WoW(1 like WoW was the companies first attempt at a MMO) Runes of Magic, Lord of the Rings Online, Asheron's Call. Runes of Magic is the first MMO to allow Multi-Classing, I play it off and on. Lord of the Rings Online succeeds in a different way it actually has something WoW doesnt and thats a storyline you can understand. From the first day I played WoW i looked and looked and could not find the story line that starts from the end of Warcraft 3(Which I played and The Frozen Throne Expansion) to the Launch of WoW that explains why the Pact that was made in WC3 was disolved. A 4 year gap in the history books between WC3 and WoW and the pages might as well be blank. There is no story to explain why the Horde and the Alliance are once again fighting. In LOTRO yes there are side quests but there is an Epic Story line you can follow from day 1 and it is a MAJOR quest line. What Makes Asheron's Call compete on the same level as WoW? A Game that turns 12 years old this year? Simple. Asheron's Call when it came out was the first MMO with a seamless enviroment. Every MMO that came out before it forced the gamer to load each new zone. Turbine came out and proved you can have and open world MMO and still be successful. Hell most of the ideas in WoW can be attributed to Asheron's Call. When Asheron's Call was released the Major Hitters were Ultima Online and EverQuest. Yet here comes a small no name company and is able to put out a better MMO in every way. Every says that the only way there will ever be a game that would be a WoW Killer is if Blizzard makes another MMO. I say all you have to do is look at history. A great MMO doesnt have to be made by a major developer to be a "WoW Killer". I doubt when Asheron's Call launcher that neither SOE or Richard Garriott(Lord British) thought that it would be any threat. Yet year after year patch after patch Turbine proved that it could compete. I think companies like BioWare and En Masse Entertainment will suprise alot of people with their products.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you pewople need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
Where is the line that seperates flattery from sucking up? I forget who said it but somebody said that all the companies that have made WoW clones are just copying what was done succesfully without knowing why it was done succesfully.
THe reason why games like Lineage 2 and SWG(Post-NGE) fail is because the developers of those games are changing the nature of the gameplay. It would be like trying to change the direction of a river, the consequences of that is catastrophic. But for the games that are created after WoW the developers are hoping for a success that Blizzard got with WoW. What you people are forgetting is that Blizzard didnt just one day wake up and say were going to create a MMO that we guarantee will have 12 million active players in 6 years. THey created a game and put it out just like everyone else does they just happen to find the nich that works.
Yes, but Blizzard got lucky with how succesfull WoW became. The mechanics and gameplay style were part of WoW's success, but not the reason WoW is now dominating the genre. Probably one of the biggest part of WoW's success were the die-hard Blizzard fanboys that hopped into WoW when it first came out. Then came the ads and last but definitely not least, after they really became successful WoW was featured on southpark. WoW is the juggernaut it is because it mainstreamed the genre. Like I said before, all those companies only copied the mechanics of WoW and that is why they couldn't compete with it (not to mention most of them were also bug-ridden and unfinished).
I can name you 3 MMO's that werent created by Big Name Companies that can compete against WoW(1 like WoW was the companies first attempt at a MMO) Runes of Magic, Lord of the Rings Online, Asheron's Call. Runes of Magic is the first MMO to allow Multi-Classing, I play it off and on. Lord of the Rings Online succeeds in a different way it actually has something WoW doesnt and thats a storyline you can understand. From the first day I played WoW i looked and looked and could not find the story line that starts from the end of Warcraft 3(Which I played and The Frozen Throne Expansion) to the Launch of WoW that explains why the Pact that was made in WC3 was disolved. A 4 year gap in the history books between WC3 and WoW and the pages might as well be blank. There is no story to explain why the Horde and the Alliance are once again fighting. In LOTRO yes there are side quests but there is an Epic Story line you can follow from day 1 and it is a MAJOR quest line. What Makes Asheron's Call compete on the same level as WoW? A Game that turns 12 years old this year? Simple. Asheron's Call when it came out was the first MMO with a seamless enviroment. Every MMO that came out before it forced the gamer to load each new zone. Turbine came out and proved you can have and open world MMO and still be successful. Hell most of the ideas in WoW can be attributed to Asheron's Call. When Asheron's Call was released the Major Hitters were Ultima Online and EverQuest. Yet here comes a small no name company and is able to put out a better MMO in every way. Every says that the only way there will ever be a game that would be a WoW Killer is if Blizzard makes another MMO. I say all you have to do is look at history. A great MMO doesnt have to be made by a major developer to be a "WoW Killer". I doubt when Asheron's Call launcher that neither SOE or Richard Garriott(Lord British) thought that it would be any threat. Yet year after year patch after patch Turbine proved that it could compete. I think companies like BioWare and En Masse Entertainment will suprise alot of people with their products.
You make an excellent point, however it has little to do with anything I said. You seem to be making the point that you don't need a big company to make a succesful MMO and I agree with that, an MMO needs to be finished upon release and unique unto itself to be succesful. However I never once said you need a big company to make a succesful MMO. What I said was Blizzard got lucky with how succesful they were with WoW.
Because the term "Wow-Clone" has been so overused, exaggerated beyond belief and now holds such a broad meaning (seemingly any MMORPG that has the potential to be competitive)... for me, the meaning is now synonymous with "Thread-Clone".
quests as the main form of leveling instead of just killing mobs.
So any MMOs which have adopted these philosiphies are basically inspired from WoW and NOT EQ! {mod edit}
And no WoW can't be an EQ2 clone simply because there was a difference of 1 month between the two games! {mod edit}
+ EQ2 had the traditional notice board quests. Only because of the success of WoW did they introduce proper questing leveling system. This is obvious in the unrevised zones in EQ2!
You're wrong on point B. I played EQ2 from release and we never had to grind and always had quests as the main form of leveling. You're probably right on point A, but in my opinion, that's nothing for WoW to "brag" about as it's been a part of ruining a sense of community, in my opinion.
you played EQ2 from launch and didnt see the grind it took to level? EQ2 was a grind from Day 1 until they switched their game plan to emulate WoW. You chose 1 of 4 Classes Fighter, Mage, Priest, Rogue(I went Mage). Then you leveled to a point and chose a specialty, each class had their own specialties and from those specialties depending on your faction and the next choice decided on what your final class was. By the time you were 20 you had finally gotten to the final class choice for me it was the Necromancer.If you werent grinding out levels in a forced group setting you were grinding out gathering so you could wait forever for multiple people to build little parts and combine to make the final item. There are 5 serious grind MMO's out EverQuest, EverQuest 2, EVE Online, Lineage 2, and Final Fantasy Online.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you pewople need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
Where is the line that seperates flattery from sucking up? I forget who said it but somebody said that all the companies that have made WoW clones are just copying what was done succesfully without knowing why it was done succesfully.
THe reason why games like Lineage 2 and SWG(Post-NGE) fail is because the developers of those games are changing the nature of the gameplay. It would be like trying to change the direction of a river, the consequences of that is catastrophic. But for the games that are created after WoW the developers are hoping for a success that Blizzard got with WoW. What you people are forgetting is that Blizzard didnt just one day wake up and say were going to create a MMO that we guarantee will have 12 million active players in 6 years. THey created a game and put it out just like everyone else does they just happen to find the nich that works.
Yes, but Blizzard got lucky with how succesfull WoW became. The mechanics and gameplay style were part of WoW's success, but not the reason WoW is now dominating the genre. Probably one of the biggest part of WoW's success were the die-hard Blizzard fanboys that hopped into WoW when it first came out. Then came the ads and last but definitely not least, after they really became successful WoW was featured on southpark. WoW is the juggernaut it is because it mainstreamed the genre. Like I said before, all those companies only copied the mechanics of WoW and that is why they couldn't compete with it (not to mention most of them were also bug-ridden and unfinished).
I can name you 3 MMO's that werent created by Big Name Companies that can compete against WoW(1 like WoW was the companies first attempt at a MMO) Runes of Magic, Lord of the Rings Online, Asheron's Call. Runes of Magic is the first MMO to allow Multi-Classing, I play it off and on. Lord of the Rings Online succeeds in a different way it actually has something WoW doesnt and thats a storyline you can understand. From the first day I played WoW i looked and looked and could not find the story line that starts from the end of Warcraft 3(Which I played and The Frozen Throne Expansion) to the Launch of WoW that explains why the Pact that was made in WC3 was disolved. A 4 year gap in the history books between WC3 and WoW and the pages might as well be blank. There is no story to explain why the Horde and the Alliance are once again fighting. In LOTRO yes there are side quests but there is an Epic Story line you can follow from day 1 and it is a MAJOR quest line. What Makes Asheron's Call compete on the same level as WoW? A Game that turns 12 years old this year? Simple. Asheron's Call when it came out was the first MMO with a seamless enviroment. Every MMO that came out before it forced the gamer to load each new zone. Turbine came out and proved you can have and open world MMO and still be successful. Hell most of the ideas in WoW can be attributed to Asheron's Call. When Asheron's Call was released the Major Hitters were Ultima Online and EverQuest. Yet here comes a small no name company and is able to put out a better MMO in every way. Every says that the only way there will ever be a game that would be a WoW Killer is if Blizzard makes another MMO. I say all you have to do is look at history. A great MMO doesnt have to be made by a major developer to be a "WoW Killer". I doubt when Asheron's Call launcher that neither SOE or Richard Garriott(Lord British) thought that it would be any threat. Yet year after year patch after patch Turbine proved that it could compete. I think companies like BioWare and En Masse Entertainment will suprise alot of people with their products.
You make an excellent point, however it has little to do with anything I said. You seem to be making the point that you don't need a big company to make a succesful MMO and I agree with that, an MMO needs to be finished upon release and unique unto itself to be succesful. However I never once said you need a big company to make a succesful MMO. What I said was Blizzard got lucky with how succesful they were with WoW.
no im saying that there are companies and games who compete with WoW and BLizzard and their Products arent as "Bug-Ridden and Unfinished" as you think they are. What you seem to forget is that WoW has been out 6 Years. If you have a computer software product that has been out that long and you havent gotten majority of the bugs out then you are doing something wrong. I am getting sick and tired of people comparing a brand new MMO to WoW saying "Why cant game A or B be as Bug Free as WoW", or "WoW Servers are 10x more stable as that crappy MMO is". Give the games that are comming out say a 1 year honeymoon if the game cant make it to the 1 year mark then your assumptions are correct the game sucks. But if it makes it past the 1 year mark come back and see what the dvelopers have done to improve the game.
edit: of course there are exceptions to that. SOE proved that with 2 games Vanguard:Saga of Heroes, and SWG. Vanguard was rushed to release and was probably the buggiest POS on the planet(right behind Windows ME). Then SOE took complete controll and it went down hill last i checked they are now only running 1 server for that game. Next you have SWG one of the best SciFi MMO's out, all the way up to NGE. THen at that point SOE took the SWG a Skill Based System and turned it into WoW in Space and basically told 2/3rds of the players to bugger off. From what ive heard from players of SWG, SOE tried to bribe them to recruit people to play SWG with Pod Racers. If someone can tell me how that worked out Id be greatful(I had a Wookie Jedi who was a Mster Imperial Pilot before the NGE was released).
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
no im saying that there are companies and games who compete with WoW and BLizzard and their Products arent as "Bug-Ridden and Unfinished" as you think they are. What you seem to forget is that WoW has been out 6 Years. If you have a computer software product that has been out that long and you havent gotten majority of the bugs out then you are doing something wrong. I am getting sick and tired of people comparing a brand new MMO to WoW saying "Why cant game A or B be as Bug Free as WoW", or "WoW Servers are 10x more stable as that crappy MMO is". Give the games that are comming out say a 1 year honeymoon if the game cant make it to the 1 year mark then your assumptions are correct the game sucks. But if it makes it past the 1 year mark come back and see what the dvelopers have done to improve the game.
I'll give a game until release to become finished and bug free. If you can't finish a game before the deadline your given then you shouldn't release it. As far as server stability goes, I believe that is what stress testing is for. As to your "wait a year to see if its succesful" remark, It really doesn't matter to me how long a game takes to reach a certain sized player base or even how big the player base gets. For me an MMO needs only 2 things for it to not be considered a failure 1) Bringing in more money than it cost to make and 2) Keeping its server up and running for a sizable amount of time.
no im saying that there are companies and games who compete with WoW and BLizzard and their Products arent as "Bug-Ridden and Unfinished" as you think they are. What you seem to forget is that WoW has been out 6 Years. If you have a computer software product that has been out that long and you havent gotten majority of the bugs out then you are doing something wrong. I am getting sick and tired of people comparing a brand new MMO to WoW saying "Why cant game A or B be as Bug Free as WoW", or "WoW Servers are 10x more stable as that crappy MMO is". Give the games that are comming out say a 1 year honeymoon if the game cant make it to the 1 year mark then your assumptions are correct the game sucks. But if it makes it past the 1 year mark come back and see what the dvelopers have done to improve the game.
I'll give a game until release to become finished and bug free. If you can't finish a game before the deadline your given then you shouldn't release it. As far as server stability goes, I believe that is what stress testing is for. As to your "wait a year to see if its succesful" remark, It really doesn't matter to me how long a game takes to reach a certain sized player base or even how big the player base gets. For me an MMO needs only 2 things for it to not be considered a failure 1) Bringing in more money than it cost to make and 2) Keeping its server up and running for a sizable amount of time.
the only games that fit your rules are offline games that have no online options. even then that is close to impossible to pull off, but for an online game its gone well passed the realm of impossible. An online game whether it be MMORPG, MMORTS, or MMOFPS is in constant beta from Beta Stage 1(which is where we the players come in) to the day they shut the servers we are in constant beta testing. To expect a MMO to be bug free at release is as bout as hopeful as expecting the sun to rise in the west. Hell even office software and Operating Systems has bugs in them after release(did you forget why Windows XP SP2 was released so quickly after SP1 was released?). it is up to us as the user to give the developer a heads up when bugs are in the software and majority of the time people play beta they just play so they can figure out how to get to max level the fastest after release. so if you want to find out why games like vanguard are so buggy id suggest looking towards your fellow players instead of blaming the developers.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Term "WoW-clone" is used by someone who doesn't care to make a distinction between WoW or other non-sandbox MMORPGs because he/she doesn't like them.
It is the same as branding a person who smokes marijuana and a person who uses metamphetamine under the same term, "addict", when clearly there is a difference. Again, someone who doesn't care to make a distinction, doesn't care to call them anything else.
It is an effective method of trolling aswell.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Exhibit A 'If we consider all MMOs that is not WoW failures we don't'
This is the previous quote from Garvon3
no clone has been a success yet
AoC, LotRO, WAR, Aion, none of them did well
So which one is it?
You're having reading comprehension issues. Are you implying that AoC, LotRO, WAR, and Aion are the ONLY MMORPGs? All these gaves have been declining in subs for a long time now, and they were, for the most part, failures, especially WAR and AOC. Some successful MMOs - most of the MMOs that came before WoW, Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Eve, ect..(Example A)
Exhibit D What is a 'real' MMO? So WoW/Aion/DDO/LOTRO are all 'non-MMO's? WoW certainly is barely an MMO. This is due to its instant travel, its instanced world, instanced dungeons, instanced raids, cross server dungeon finder, cross realm battlegrounds, ect ect. It plays more like Diablo than an MMO. DDO also falls into this boat, its more a pseudo MMO. LotRO flirts with this too by having so much of its game instanced, but it still has a more immersive and believable world than WoW. (Example
I think you'll have some trouble convincing others to agree to that one. Just because you decided to call the color 'Blue' 'Green' doesn't mean others will accept that.
Nice dodge on the other 2 points! way to go! ROFL.
Once again, lets look at what is being said.
Example A: So this text is implying that AoC/War/LotRO/Aion were for the most part failures.
I wouldn't call Aion or LoTRO failures, they are making the dev company money to fund future projects. So how did it 'fail'?
Then it is implied that MMOs before WoW was released are the 'successful' ones and gives examples of "Darkfall, Fallen Earth, Eve" um... might wanna check on those release dates cause only EVE predates WoW.
And I find this hilarious, Aion with its 3.5M subs and LoTRO with its 300k Sub (before they went F2P) is a 'failure' while EVE with its 350k Sub is a success? What's the sub number for DarkFall, Fall Earth again?
Example B: you heard it here first folks! This is what makes a REAL MMO! /sarcasm.
This golden age "back in my day" stuff is getting old. Market is dictating what the big companies should make and they are meeting that demand. More people than ever are playing MMOs so I really don't understand the hate.
U r not trying to make a point, you are arguing symantics, because it is the only thing you have left, to fall back on. You are missing the contex of his posts, because you are stuck on some technicality.
He's fending off many ignorant people posts & am sure you'll eventually widdle him down. But there are many Veteran gamers who have been around since the dawn of pong/atari/wizardry/mud/mmo/mmorpg, ok? We know the mechanics of how each game is built and played on. Simply because these things were discussed heavily when each of these new technologies became available in the MMO space.
So, only younger, uneducated kids talk in terms of "clones". So he must, as well. That is what he is saying. Ironically, many of you today still cannot even differentiate what is, or what isn't a clone. It is utterly rediculous.
At 41, I am sitting here with utter bewilderment and disgust that we have MMo gamers of many years and they have no clue about what technology drives the game they are playing/played. Their clueless and it is what is leading to all these cheap MMO being made. A couple hundred of thousand people give WoW a 1 month break... and thats a $3 million in some cheap Korean developer's back pocket.
So that is why we see this recent windfall of uber cheap, free to play, (or Item mall) asian type MMO spring up. It's all about the fast buck and capatilizing on young WoW players, for the free $$ they provide from Dad's wallet.
Because these clones (allods online/AoC, etc) don't care about the story, or providing you with a new book to play through, & open world to explore. Many are about buying the smallest server cluster and spending $80K on a ultra cheap zoned game... and then place some scantaly clad 14 year old on the cover and call it "anime". Which any developer knows will grab the attention of testosterone filled teenagers...
So you now have 2% of wow players (young males) trying this new game out (off & on) for the next 5 weeks... and another Korean developer just made another $3 million. Hence perpetuating the flood of "asian grinders".
Understand, real mmorpg's cost millions to make. WoW, EQ2 & VG and some other cost $30+ million.
But most of you have absolutely no idea why. It is because the server farm to run such games cost alot to lease/buy, and maintaining the infrastructure/network is expensive. Cheap Asian grinders can be played on a Cheap rack server, costing $70 grand. Not million dollar server farms.
That is one of the reasons why Open World game (that each and everyone of us wants) are so hard to come by, because the server structure is extremely costly. But one moment in Darkfall, or Mortal Online and you'll see the future of MMORPG's.
I believe SOE's Everquest 3 will be open world, if it is not, then it all about greed.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
no im saying that there are companies and games who compete with WoW and BLizzard and their Products arent as "Bug-Ridden and Unfinished" as you think they are. What you seem to forget is that WoW has been out 6 Years. If you have a computer software product that has been out that long and you havent gotten majority of the bugs out then you are doing something wrong. I am getting sick and tired of people comparing a brand new MMO to WoW saying "Why cant game A or B be as Bug Free as WoW", or "WoW Servers are 10x more stable as that crappy MMO is". Give the games that are comming out say a 1 year honeymoon if the game cant make it to the 1 year mark then your assumptions are correct the game sucks. But if it makes it past the 1 year mark come back and see what the dvelopers have done to improve the game.
I'll give a game until release to become finished and bug free. If you can't finish a game before the deadline your given then you shouldn't release it. As far as server stability goes, I believe that is what stress testing is for. As to your "wait a year to see if its succesful" remark, It really doesn't matter to me how long a game takes to reach a certain sized player base or even how big the player base gets. For me an MMO needs only 2 things for it to not be considered a failure 1) Bringing in more money than it cost to make and 2) Keeping its server up and running for a sizable amount of time.
the only games that fit your rules are offline games that have no online options. even then that is close to impossible to pull off, but for an online game its gone well passed the realm of impossible. An online game whether it be MMORPG, MMORTS, or MMOFPS is in constant beta from Beta Stage 1(which is where we the players come in) to the day they shut the servers we are in constant beta testing. To expect a MMO to be bug free at release is as bout as hopeful as expecting the sun to rise in the west. Hell even office software and Operating Systems has bugs in them after release(did you forget why Windows XP SP2 was released so quickly after SP1 was released?). it is up to us as the user to give the developer a heads up when bugs are in the software and majority of the time people play beta they just play so they can figure out how to get to max level the fastest after release. so if you want to find out why games like vanguard are so buggy id suggest looking towards your fellow players instead of blaming the developers.
There are different levels of bugs. The way recent MMOs have been released is unacceptable. Rift might be an exception. I don't think most in the PC camp expect bug free, but relatively bug free and finished with features advertised on the box in place.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Seriously, some times I want to invent a time machine, when MMO's were back in their sandbox days, devs didn't listen to the constant crying of the community, and the population was filled with mature players. Now what do we have? We have idiots, such as most of the people on this thread complaining.
It isn't a "WoW-Clone" it is an "EQ-Clone" , WoW came out with a LOT of bugs, and a LOT of server crashes, servers were down a lot for maitenance, and there were huge bugs.
Of course, the children who joined when it was publicized to the children on their favorite cartoon channels will beg to differ, that is all good, I won't argue with them, you can't beat a child in an argument due to their irrational thoughts, and their lust to flex the "E-Peen" they so desire to make enormouse.
People calling EQ2 a "WoW-Clone" are stupid people, seeing how EQ2 was in devolopment first, and was released first. I'm just so sick with the MMO's out today, none are innovating, all are trying to slice open that cash cow and trying to get their pockets nice and filled.
Seriously, some times I want to invent a time machine, when MMO's were back in their sandbox days, devs didn't listen to the constant crying of the community, and the population was filled with mature players. Now what do we have? We have idiots, such as most of the people on this thread complaining.
It isn't a "WoW-Clone" it is an "EQ-Clone" , WoW came out with a LOT of bugs, and a LOT of server crashes, servers were down a lot for maitenance, and there were huge bugs.
Of course, the children who joined when it was publicized to the children on their favorite cartoon channels will beg to differ, that is all good, I won't argue with them, you can't beat a child in an argument due to their irrational thoughts, and their lust to flex the "E-Peen" they so desire to make enormouse.
People calling EQ2 a "WoW-Clone" are stupid people, seeing how EQ2 was in devolopment first, and was released first. I'm just so sick with the MMO's out today, none are innovating, all are trying to slice open that cash cow and trying to get their pockets nice and filled.
Well, Wow-clone has more to do with it's success rather than the type of mmorpg that came first. EQ didnt inspire the shear amount of mmorpg's that are produced today, WoW did. Everyone saw WoW's success and made a go of it. EQ2 came first, but it was EQ2 that adjusted and simpified in some cases as they watched WoW dwarf their population in the first several months upon release. Although I wouldn't go as far to actually call it a WoW clone, it seems anything but. SWG on the other hand, tried as hard as they could to convert it into a WoW format, lol.
Obviously people saying it came first don't know what they are talking about, but I believe the term itself is directly related to it's success in the industry.
Seriously, some times I want to invent a time machine, when MMO's were back in their sandbox days, devs didn't listen to the constant crying of the community, and the population was filled with mature players. Now what do we have? We have idiots, such as most of the people on this thread complaining.
It isn't a "WoW-Clone" it is an "EQ-Clone" , WoW came out with a LOT of bugs, and a LOT of server crashes, servers were down a lot for maitenance, and there were huge bugs.
Of course, the children who joined when it was publicized to the children on their favorite cartoon channels will beg to differ, that is all good, I won't argue with them, you can't beat a child in an argument due to their irrational thoughts, and their lust to flex the "E-Peen" they so desire to make enormouse.
People calling EQ2 a "WoW-Clone" are stupid people, seeing how EQ2 was in devolopment first, and was released first. I'm just so sick with the MMO's out today, none are innovating, all are trying to slice open that cash cow and trying to get their pockets nice and filled.
Well, Wow-clone has more to do with it's success rather than the type of mmorpg that came first. EQ didnt inspire the shear amount of mmorpg's that are produced today, WoW did. Everyone saw WoW's success and made a go of it. EQ2 came first, but it was EQ2 that adjusted and simpified in some cases as they watched WoW dwarf their population in the first several months upon release. Although I wouldn't go as far to actually call it a WoW clone, it seems anything but. SWG on the other hand, tried as hard as they could to convert it into a WoW format, lol.
Obviously people saying it came first don't know what they are talking about, but I believe the term itself is directly related to it's success in the industry.
You don't think EQ's success inspired WoW in anyway? What about before EQ... come on, give credit where credit is due. WoW is a clone itself.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
The game would have to not be an MMORPG to not be called a WoW clone by someone. Just like people afew years ago used to call everything an EQ clone. And so it'll be for the MMO that surpasses WoW.
Comments
For me the term "wow clone" means you always play the game within the UI at all times. No matter if you are fighting, looking at your char screen, inventory, stat screen, skill window, or any combination of the above, you are always playing within the UI.
A "non-wow clone" is a game were you interact with the world outside of the UI.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Or, it can simply... not be a WoW clone. It's very easy. If you think that you can't make a theme park game without being a WoW clone than this genre is truly finished. Screw it, I might as well just not play MMOs anymore, they've stopped being what they are supposed to be.
ER wut? EVE Online has absolutely no grind at all, at least in terms of character progression and if you're referring to earning ISK, even that can be totally avoided if desired.
I assure you, there's some Asian MMORPG's out there that make most of the games on your list outside of L2 look like causal walk in the parks.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Wrong
WoW Clone
is just a term. Not to be taken Literal.
It simply synonym for "Theme Park design"
WoW killer
is a synonym for "Successful MMORPG"
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
If we follow this logic, then Half life is a 'Doom-clone'.
Yeah, good luck with that.
How a term is used is up to the individual and his/her opinion.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
What makes EVE Online a grind isnt the game play but the skill training the real life time it takes to become uber. if i want to spend 6 weeks learning a skill ill go to college in the real world.
to just1opinion: i consider "Forced Group Hunting" to be when you cant go from level 1 to max level with no other choice but to group. I have played games from Korea, Japan, Europe, Russia and North America. Some say Blizzard is making MMO's a easy street and that there should be a challenge in gaming. Well Blizzard didnt start the easy street they just made it bigger. THe first MMO that allowed solo and group hunting wasnt WoW it was Asheron's Call which launched the same time as Ultima Online and Everquest and still is online today. BLizzard when it started WoW looked at ever major MMO out EQ1, AC1, UO, SWG, Lineage, DAoC, and brought every good part to WoW and made it better. What makes WoW better than EQ2 is simple. In EQ2 it takes hours to get the simplest quests done, for the Die Hard Gamer thats OK but not for the person that cant afford that amount of time. Blizzard made WoW for the person who can only play at the most 6-7 hours a week. Because of this model and BLizzards showing that you can provide to all types of gamers other MMO Developers SOE, Mythic/BioWare(EA has pared Mythic and BioWare to create any and ALL Online games), Turbine, NCsoft and Cryptic are using that same model for their games. Does this make the MMO's those companies create a "WoW Clone"? Simple answer is "No". What you people need to realize is there is 1 major rule in business and that rule is "The only failure in business is the failure to show profit", and if copying WoW makes their games more successful then they will do anything in their power to remian successfull.
a passing quote for those who forget: "Immitation is the sincereist form of flatery"
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Where is the line that seperates flattery from sucking up? I forget who said it but somebody said that all the companies that have made WoW clones are just copying what was done succesfully without knowing why it was done succesfully.
THe reason why games like Lineage 2 and SWG(Post-NGE) fail is because the developers of those games are changing the nature of the gameplay. It would be like trying to change the direction of a river, the consequences of that is catastrophic. But for the games that are created after WoW the developers are hoping for a success that Blizzard got with WoW. What you people are forgetting is that Blizzard didnt just one day wake up and say were going to create a MMO that we guarantee will have 12 million active players in 6 years. THey created a game and put it out just like everyone else does they just happen to find the nich that works.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
No graphics
No controls
Voice Command
lol.
After reading all this wow clone has no meaning anymore, it has been missused to such a degree that all games are wow clone from everquest to eve. if its mmorpg its a wow clone you would need to invent a new genre to not be labled as wow clone to some people.
I know i won't take anyone serious anymore that use the term wow clone.
Yes, but Blizzard got lucky with how succesfull WoW became. The mechanics and gameplay style were part of WoW's success, but not the reason WoW is now dominating the genre. Probably one of the biggest part of WoW's success were the die-hard Blizzard fanboys that hopped into WoW when it first came out. Then came the ads and last but definitely not least, after they really became successful WoW was featured on southpark. WoW is the juggernaut it is because it mainstreamed the genre. Like I said before, all those companies only copied the mechanics of WoW and that is why they couldn't compete with it (not to mention most of them were also bug-ridden and unfinished).
I can name you 3 MMO's that werent created by Big Name Companies that can compete against WoW(1 like WoW was the companies first attempt at a MMO) Runes of Magic, Lord of the Rings Online, Asheron's Call. Runes of Magic is the first MMO to allow Multi-Classing, I play it off and on. Lord of the Rings Online succeeds in a different way it actually has something WoW doesnt and thats a storyline you can understand. From the first day I played WoW i looked and looked and could not find the story line that starts from the end of Warcraft 3(Which I played and The Frozen Throne Expansion) to the Launch of WoW that explains why the Pact that was made in WC3 was disolved. A 4 year gap in the history books between WC3 and WoW and the pages might as well be blank. There is no story to explain why the Horde and the Alliance are once again fighting. In LOTRO yes there are side quests but there is an Epic Story line you can follow from day 1 and it is a MAJOR quest line. What Makes Asheron's Call compete on the same level as WoW? A Game that turns 12 years old this year? Simple. Asheron's Call when it came out was the first MMO with a seamless enviroment. Every MMO that came out before it forced the gamer to load each new zone. Turbine came out and proved you can have and open world MMO and still be successful. Hell most of the ideas in WoW can be attributed to Asheron's Call. When Asheron's Call was released the Major Hitters were Ultima Online and EverQuest. Yet here comes a small no name company and is able to put out a better MMO in every way. Every says that the only way there will ever be a game that would be a WoW Killer is if Blizzard makes another MMO. I say all you have to do is look at history. A great MMO doesnt have to be made by a major developer to be a "WoW Killer". I doubt when Asheron's Call launcher that neither SOE or Richard Garriott(Lord British) thought that it would be any threat. Yet year after year patch after patch Turbine proved that it could compete. I think companies like BioWare and En Masse Entertainment will suprise alot of people with their products.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
You make an excellent point, however it has little to do with anything I said. You seem to be making the point that you don't need a big company to make a succesful MMO and I agree with that, an MMO needs to be finished upon release and unique unto itself to be succesful. However I never once said you need a big company to make a succesful MMO. What I said was Blizzard got lucky with how succesful they were with WoW.
Because the term "Wow-Clone" has been so overused, exaggerated beyond belief and now holds such a broad meaning (seemingly any MMORPG that has the potential to be competitive)... for me, the meaning is now synonymous with "Thread-Clone".
no im saying that there are companies and games who compete with WoW and BLizzard and their Products arent as "Bug-Ridden and Unfinished" as you think they are. What you seem to forget is that WoW has been out 6 Years. If you have a computer software product that has been out that long and you havent gotten majority of the bugs out then you are doing something wrong. I am getting sick and tired of people comparing a brand new MMO to WoW saying "Why cant game A or B be as Bug Free as WoW", or "WoW Servers are 10x more stable as that crappy MMO is". Give the games that are comming out say a 1 year honeymoon if the game cant make it to the 1 year mark then your assumptions are correct the game sucks. But if it makes it past the 1 year mark come back and see what the dvelopers have done to improve the game.
edit: of course there are exceptions to that. SOE proved that with 2 games Vanguard:Saga of Heroes, and SWG. Vanguard was rushed to release and was probably the buggiest POS on the planet(right behind Windows ME). Then SOE took complete controll and it went down hill last i checked they are now only running 1 server for that game. Next you have SWG one of the best SciFi MMO's out, all the way up to NGE. THen at that point SOE took the SWG a Skill Based System and turned it into WoW in Space and basically told 2/3rds of the players to bugger off. From what ive heard from players of SWG, SOE tried to bribe them to recruit people to play SWG with Pod Racers. If someone can tell me how that worked out Id be greatful(I had a Wookie Jedi who was a Mster Imperial Pilot before the NGE was released).
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
I'll give a game until release to become finished and bug free. If you can't finish a game before the deadline your given then you shouldn't release it. As far as server stability goes, I believe that is what stress testing is for. As to your "wait a year to see if its succesful" remark, It really doesn't matter to me how long a game takes to reach a certain sized player base or even how big the player base gets. For me an MMO needs only 2 things for it to not be considered a failure 1) Bringing in more money than it cost to make and 2) Keeping its server up and running for a sizable amount of time.
the only games that fit your rules are offline games that have no online options. even then that is close to impossible to pull off, but for an online game its gone well passed the realm of impossible. An online game whether it be MMORPG, MMORTS, or MMOFPS is in constant beta from Beta Stage 1(which is where we the players come in) to the day they shut the servers we are in constant beta testing. To expect a MMO to be bug free at release is as bout as hopeful as expecting the sun to rise in the west. Hell even office software and Operating Systems has bugs in them after release(did you forget why Windows XP SP2 was released so quickly after SP1 was released?). it is up to us as the user to give the developer a heads up when bugs are in the software and majority of the time people play beta they just play so they can figure out how to get to max level the fastest after release. so if you want to find out why games like vanguard are so buggy id suggest looking towards your fellow players instead of blaming the developers.
"Possibly we humans can exist without actually having to fight. But many of us have chosen to fight. For what reason? To protect something? Protect what? Ourselves? The future? If we kill people to protect ourselves and this future, then what sort of future is it, and what will we have become? There is no future for those who have died. And what of those who did the killing? Is happiness to be found in a future that is grasped with blood stained hands? Is that the truth?"
Term "WoW-clone" is used by someone who doesn't care to make a distinction between WoW or other non-sandbox MMORPGs because he/she doesn't like them.
It is the same as branding a person who smokes marijuana and a person who uses metamphetamine under the same term, "addict", when clearly there is a difference. Again, someone who doesn't care to make a distinction, doesn't care to call them anything else.
It is an effective method of trolling aswell.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
U r not trying to make a point, you are arguing symantics, because it is the only thing you have left, to fall back on. You are missing the contex of his posts, because you are stuck on some technicality.
He's fending off many ignorant people posts & am sure you'll eventually widdle him down. But there are many Veteran gamers who have been around since the dawn of pong/atari/wizardry/mud/mmo/mmorpg, ok? We know the mechanics of how each game is built and played on. Simply because these things were discussed heavily when each of these new technologies became available in the MMO space.
So, only younger, uneducated kids talk in terms of "clones". So he must, as well. That is what he is saying. Ironically, many of you today still cannot even differentiate what is, or what isn't a clone. It is utterly rediculous.
At 41, I am sitting here with utter bewilderment and disgust that we have MMo gamers of many years and they have no clue about what technology drives the game they are playing/played. Their clueless and it is what is leading to all these cheap MMO being made. A couple hundred of thousand people give WoW a 1 month break... and thats a $3 million in some cheap Korean developer's back pocket.
So that is why we see this recent windfall of uber cheap, free to play, (or Item mall) asian type MMO spring up. It's all about the fast buck and capatilizing on young WoW players, for the free $$ they provide from Dad's wallet.
Because these clones (allods online/AoC, etc) don't care about the story, or providing you with a new book to play through, & open world to explore. Many are about buying the smallest server cluster and spending $80K on a ultra cheap zoned game... and then place some scantaly clad 14 year old on the cover and call it "anime". Which any developer knows will grab the attention of testosterone filled teenagers...
So you now have 2% of wow players (young males) trying this new game out (off & on) for the next 5 weeks... and another Korean developer just made another $3 million. Hence perpetuating the flood of "asian grinders".
Understand, real mmorpg's cost millions to make. WoW, EQ2 & VG and some other cost $30+ million.
But most of you have absolutely no idea why. It is because the server farm to run such games cost alot to lease/buy, and maintaining the infrastructure/network is expensive. Cheap Asian grinders can be played on a Cheap rack server, costing $70 grand. Not million dollar server farms.
That is one of the reasons why Open World game (that each and everyone of us wants) are so hard to come by, because the server structure is extremely costly. But one moment in Darkfall, or Mortal Online and you'll see the future of MMORPG's.
I believe SOE's Everquest 3 will be open world, if it is not, then it all about greed.
"No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."
-Nariusseldon
There are different levels of bugs. The way recent MMOs have been released is unacceptable. Rift might be an exception. I don't think most in the PC camp expect bug free, but relatively bug free and finished with features advertised on the box in place.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Seriously, some times I want to invent a time machine, when MMO's were back in their sandbox days, devs didn't listen to the constant crying of the community, and the population was filled with mature players. Now what do we have? We have idiots, such as most of the people on this thread complaining.
It isn't a "WoW-Clone" it is an "EQ-Clone" , WoW came out with a LOT of bugs, and a LOT of server crashes, servers were down a lot for maitenance, and there were huge bugs.
Of course, the children who joined when it was publicized to the children on their favorite cartoon channels will beg to differ, that is all good, I won't argue with them, you can't beat a child in an argument due to their irrational thoughts, and their lust to flex the "E-Peen" they so desire to make enormouse.
People calling EQ2 a "WoW-Clone" are stupid people, seeing how EQ2 was in devolopment first, and was released first. I'm just so sick with the MMO's out today, none are innovating, all are trying to slice open that cash cow and trying to get their pockets nice and filled.
Well, Wow-clone has more to do with it's success rather than the type of mmorpg that came first. EQ didnt inspire the shear amount of mmorpg's that are produced today, WoW did. Everyone saw WoW's success and made a go of it. EQ2 came first, but it was EQ2 that adjusted and simpified in some cases as they watched WoW dwarf their population in the first several months upon release. Although I wouldn't go as far to actually call it a WoW clone, it seems anything but. SWG on the other hand, tried as hard as they could to convert it into a WoW format, lol.
Obviously people saying it came first don't know what they are talking about, but I believe the term itself is directly related to it's success in the industry.
You don't think EQ's success inspired WoW in anyway? What about before EQ... come on, give credit where credit is due. WoW is a clone itself.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
The game would have to not be an MMORPG to not be called a WoW clone by someone. Just like people afew years ago used to call everything an EQ clone. And so it'll be for the MMO that surpasses WoW.
10 reason not to be called a wow-clone ......
1) do not have more than 1 subscriber
2) do not have a good server performance
3) do not use comic style grafics
4) install a leet-speak filter for the chatrooms
5) get it rated NC-25
6) do not write about it on mmorpg.com
7) do not let the people pay for expansion-boxes after you made the first billion (before taxes) only through monthly-fees
8) ban the ip-adress of china
9) do not use any features of mmorpgs released before summer 2004 that wow has copied
and finally
10) name your game eve online