No I do not have time. I have 40 hours of classes a week and an additional 15 to 30 hours of homework a week.
So my free time is split between friends, programming(for fun), Physical training(40 to 60 hours in all). So essentially video games exsist when I'm not in the mood to deal with people I know or the familar. And essentially Level grind, long travel times, and repetition are all so familar the 4th or 5th time(first?).
_________
That said I would love to see a game with a crafting system that is awesome, And was designed so I the player could do as I pleased and mix/min/max with ingrediants I aquire along the way.
I would love to see a game that all together deals away with leveling in favor of meaninful customization.
Essentially my ideal MMO wouldn't be about "maxxing" like virtually EVERY mmo is about. but about Min-maxing.
_________
I would also love to see balanced open world PvP. But that just doesn't happen as what always happens is that one person min/maxes themselves for whatever the area "has", and the predator min/maxes themselves for what the prey is going to have.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
We've all seen it, the phrase "I don't have enough time" used to justify why players demand game mechanics so prevalent in most modern MMORPG's.
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
Not enough time to level up a character? Though a complaint not often seen these days, it was used heavily in the past by players who would pay other folks to level up their characters for them. Same with gold buying as well, not enough time to earn the gold myself, so I went out and paid someone else who was willing to do it for me.
Rich, detailed crafting systems? Who in the world has time for that? Make the best gear come from drops, preferably from those instant queued dungeons we designed for players without enough time to play the game.
Engaging open world PVP content? Well that has to go, who has time to run around a vast wilderness looking for fair and balanced fights, much better if we let them queue up for cross realm pvp instanced matches to make sure their vaulable time isn't wasted.
Sigh, I could go on but why bother? It's pretty obvious that developers have sacrificed much of what actually gave MMORPG's their heart and soul in order to appeal to the "causal player" with everything from quest givers and large icons above their heads to arrows that direct the player right to their destination.
Socialization mechanics such as forced downtime, strong group encouragement and the like have all given way to make MMORPG's quick and easy games for people to "enjoy" but at the same time they've lost so much of the magic I used to enjoy.
BTW, I've a 50+ year old player who's held a full time job, raised a family all during the time I've played MMORPG's. I never was one of those folks who could claim that I had more time in my younger days and now don't have the time to play them anymore. Few people have had less time than I to enjoy MMORPG's really, so that arguement carries no real weight for me.
Yeah, I know, I'm a dinosaur and need to learn that the MMORPG world has moved on without me but still I hope in time players in the 2nd generation of MMORPG's will one day reconsider and take the time to really enjoy these virtual worlds and not just play them like a quick-hit "game"
You know, I agree with you. As an old school UO player, which were some of the most fun moments in my life I understand and pretty much agree with your perspective. Unfortunatly, I don't have the time I used too. I work full time an married and am getting a Master's of Business Administration from the University of Texas in the evening program. Over recent years, I still buy the Darkfalls, the Xsyons and other sandboxes that appeal to me but I quit when I realize I just don't have enough time.
I need a game that lets me have fun with a limited time budget. Most people who grew up in the early days of MMO's have this problem, that is, much more responsibilities.
I'd love a game that could figure out a balance.. I hope its Archeage, but perhaps I'll just be dissapointed because I don't have enough time.
It seems like that's the case, or more generally, that they think the solution is to go back to a system that most people rejected in favor of the new systems.
One of a few reasons those games were (arguably) more social is because of the common interests that much smaller community shared. Secondly, people were bored. Those time sinks were put in to replace replace content, or were there due to inadequate tech. Then somewhere along the line, some dev lead with an IQ over 80 decided that very few people enjoy a 20 minute jog down a road... for the 30th time.
No developer has ANY interest in making their game's community more exclusive(and thus, smaller). Nor do they have any interest in manufacturing boredom in their player base. It worked back then when MMO options were meager and their rivals also lacked content. That dog won't hunt, now.
Now, the problem that Kyleran brings up IS there, I agree. I just disagree that the way to make a game's community more... community-like is to recreate all the old time sinks that make people have to sit around and thus, eventually talk to the guy next to them.
The solution I think we need is in what Loke brought up. MMO's need more social activities and areas. And I'd add that there should be some technical form of character development involved in participating. Or something that helps speed up your normal advancement.
The key isn't in getting rid of the people who don't have 40+ hours a week to play an MMO. The key is in getting people to WILLFULLY engage with other players even if only for 15 minutes at a time. And that solution is gonna require someone smarter than me.
I found this a very good post. Smart, intelligent, to the point and supporting all views. It even explains the historical evolution of on line play and the way the smart companies will evolve.
Every point you made was completely wrong, and I'm trying to be fair when I say that, unfortunately you are one of these people who clearly started playing this genre later after its originalty died, and/or you just have a differen't idea of what a MMO is suppose to be... Clearly the wrong idea, but different none the less.
What you want out of a MMO could come from a generic RPG, you don't need it to be a MMORPG, a 100% instanced server could fill your desires, but alas, that is NOT a MMO.
I have a pretty good idea of what MMO used to be (I started with Kingdom of Drakkar, WAY before UO & EQ .. and of course play UO beat, and EQ for a year).
Today's MMOs are MUCH better games. There is a reason why DIablo 1/2 are so popular and more MMO features close to it makes MMOs better games.
I *have* limited time and I want my MMO experience to be focus on dungeon romps, not standing around chatting. In fact, a 100% instanced server will be nice if it also supports guilds, and AH. There is NO generic RPG like that and I haven't seen cooperative PvE gameplay (scripted boss encounters) done as well in other online RPGs other than MMOs.
Going to attempt to reply to a couple of points people made in the thread so far.
Regarding fair and balanced open world PVP.... I didn't quite mean it that way, I wasn't implying that PVP needs to be fair and balanced and as some other folks pointed out, in some MMO's (i.e. DAOC, EVE) it's quite possible for a small, well organized team to withstand and even overcome "the zerg". (but that's a topic for a different thread) Trouble is now, fair and balanced combat seems to be the order of the day with controlled BG's and arena's where sometimes class/gear mechanics leave no opporutnity for player tactics and strategy to win the day. (Sort of all comes down to he who clicks the bestest wins)
I wasn't suggesting that to create a MMORPG with better socialization we had to return entirely to the old ways, but I do feel we've thrown the baby out with the bath water so to speak and players might find that reasonable downtime or travels would improve socialization and interaction. Of course, I realize some follks (OK, apparently many of them) don't play MMORPG's for their social aspects, they're looking for a "game" rather than a world so it comes down of course to a matter of taste.
But I do reject the argument there isn't enough time. Haven't seen anyone yet who was more time challenged then I (some were about equal) and still I prefer games with deeper playing mechanics even if it takes more time to get to the end. (whatever the end really is)
For all the claims about how much fun the new mechanics are, it seems to me players are less satisfied and generally play for shorter periods of time in any one game more than ever before. They hop from game to game, back and forth seraching for the fun. Once they exhaust the content they move on, and those who tend to stay on usually say a big reason is because their friends or guild are playing so they're really there for the socialization, and not the gameplay.
I know everyone agrees that we don't all have to like the same things, however I still think a pretty amazing MMORPG could be made that would draw a good portion of subscribers if only Developers would break away more from the current MMORPG mold that so many try to copy. Unfortunately when designing games swinging for the park fence seems to be the only way to go so they try on include all the features they think appeals to a particular large segement of the market in hopes of luring them away.
I'll keep the faith, one day there's bound to be a developer who makes something that really feels a bit different who will be reasonably successful (there are a few already I'll grant you) and we'll see more choice open up for folks whose playing style is more like my own.
Edit: and to those who took offense at my "root of all evil" comment, it was a metaphor only, and a catchy way to say 'reason why lots of great game mechanics are no longer part of current MMORPG design philosophy. See, it was easier the first time around.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My first MMORPG was DAOC, and being my first MMORPG, it was magical and life changing for me. Getting together with several other players that are killing stuff in the zone to kill harder stuff as a cohesive group was fun. It got me hooked on group play. I'd spend hours with other players doing this. It would take a while to get to a camp, and a while to fight through to the mobs that grant the best experience. It also took 20 min on average to get to one place to another riding a horse (equivalent to WoW FP's). RVRing or playing in the BG's, which were just minature RVR battlegrounds also were a blast and took hours of my time. So I definitely understand the draw of the yesteryears games. However, as a person grows older and becomes more responsible, we still want to enjoy MMORPG's, since they offer a value not offered by FPS games or single player RPG's, but we can't commit hours a day playing them and still be responsible.
Most people eventually have full-time jobs, outside of game friends, get married, and have children. Not to mention you still have a mother and father, brothers and/or sisters, and etc. to divide your time amongst. But let's just say the bare minimum, a person has kids, a full-time job, a significant other, and friends. How can anyone with all of that possibly dedicate several hours a day to sitting in front of a computer playing a video game. It just isn't responsible.
We all need our alone time as human beings, and we all have different hobbies to occupy us during that alone time. We're all here, because on of those hobbies is MMORPG's. But, every hour you spend on a MMORPG is an hour that could have been spent playing with your kids or teaching them something, spending time with your friends or significant other, or socializing outside the game. All I'm saying is that the responsible person has to balance their time to not only make time for themselves, but for their other responsibilities.
So people who say they don't have enough time for the yesteryear MMORPG timesinks are the majority of players who make up the MMORPG adult population. Any adult asking for MMORPG features that require you to be online for several hours at a time in order to get something meaningful accomplished are being irresponsible. I'm not judging others for the way they choose to live their lives, or the people in the real world that are neglected in order to satisfy their ingame whims, but to ask for developers to cater to that lifestyle isn't logical.
So while I'd love to group up with people and grind on mobs in open terrain or in a dungeon, while chatting and making new friends, I think having mounts, teleportation, and reduced travel times is a good thing. I don't think speeding up the leveling process caters to people without much time, rather I think it caters to people who are impatient. WoW's dungeon finder allows for people who love to group with others and overcome obstacles too hard to do solo to do so in a short amount of time. Now I can find a group in as little as 10-15 minutes, which while I'm waiting I can sell stuff on the AH, continue on some interesting quest arcs that are solo friendly, or chat with whoever. Then when the que pops, I'm grouping up and battling mobs for 45 min to 1.5 hours. In return, I get good xp and good loot. The same endeavor in DAoC would take me 3-4 hours, not counting the time to follow a good quest line.
So MMORPG's have made getting to the fun a lot faster, but has also made the path of least resistence anti-social (questing). So I don't think removing timesinks was a bad thing or that adding them back in is a good idea. Rather, I think that making games a solo quest grind is what hurt socialization, and removing them and replacing it with public quest systems and open grouping would progress the genre, while also going towards the direction of the genre's roots.
BTW, I've a 50+ year old player who's held a full time job, raised a family all during the time I've played MMORPG's. I never was one of those folks who could claim that I had more time in my younger days and now don't have the time to play them anymore. Few people have had less time than I to enjoy MMORPG's really, so that arguement carries no real weight for me.
I'm in your age-group and played the early MMOs, so I have noticed the changes--particularly in games like WOW that are full of convenience features and where running dungeons in PUGs feel like a race.
I think a lot of people in this thread are on the wrong track though. I think it has much less to do with gamers aging and acquiring the inevitable responsibilities that go along with that. The main reason why games have evolved this way has a lot more to do with some very significant cultural changes that have happened in the past decade: we've gone from a world with very casual cell phone and internet usage to one with a constant barrage of texts and instant messages where the most popular internet activities (facebook, twitter) are all about the quick interaction. We've come to expect instant gratification as the norm and our attention spans have shorttened significantly. Current MMO design simply reflects that.
As a matter of fact, it's much more likely for us old timers to think we want to play at a slower pace, stopping to smell the roses...I suspect most teen and early 20's players (by far the biggest MMO market) listen to us go on about thre good old days and just say WTF?? As a matter of fact, most of them stopped reading this post back around "inevitable responsibilities"
The short answer would be: "It's a sign of the times."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
With almost every mmo following the same formula with quests , instances , Leveling chars bashing the same npc 40,000 times etc etc . Staying enthusiasic about the genre after 10+ years of geeking is becoming increasingly difficult . Each game is the same as the one before with different skins , and demands X amount of playtime to stay on par leveling or X amount of time to get "maxxed out " .Even games that have broken the mould and rejected the easy $$ of another wow clone are painfully tedious and drop u right slap bang of the leveling treadmill just like the rest .
So heres a few Question's , Why do MMORPGS need levels ? . Are they anything more than a giant time sink or Lazy content ?? .Does leveling enhance the roleplay or fun ?? .
Let's propose for a minuite that there is no leveling , at char creation you pick a race/class and log in game with enough points to" Max" your char anyway you like within the class limits .
For a start you just free'd up 1000's of hours GM time checking exploiters/macroers etc etc , time that they could and should be spending delivering dynamic content that realy will enhance your roleplaying , weather thats as" Darth Lord Super NPC "in your favorite pve mmo or Directing and enhancing the bloodshed in your favorite open world PVP mmo .
This wouldnt just change the way the GM's in your mmo's work but also the DEV team , think about the countless hours they spend balancing and tweaking the leveling process and all the programing behind it , then tweaking and balancing it again .... and again ..... and again . All this time should be put in to other things FUN game content , maybe once in a while having a original idea .
If you have a strict definition of fun, you may be doing it wrong.
Even this is the wrong mindframe. What 1 person may find fun another may find tedious. What 1 person finds the best aspect of something the other can find it the worst. The problem is finding a middle ground and it will never be found as one side will always feel left out of their game of choice. There is no right or wrong to what people find fun or boring it's just personal preference and finding a game that suits those preferences. The problem is when both sides feel ENTITLED to what they want in an MMO that a lot of other people play and that goes for young players and older players.
Rather, I think that making games a solo quest grind is what hurt socialization, and removing them and replacing it with public quest systems and open grouping would progress the genre, while also going towards the direction of the genre's roots.
While you are right and the easiest way to cater to both groups that want the solo grind maybe because of play time requirements or it's just their cup of tea, would be to make these optional. 1 reason I loved AND hated Final fantasy XI was it's community. On one hand the help from the community for one another on the servers was outstanding, however on the other hand I didn't like having to ask 5 other people to hold my hand for the most remdial tasks.
With almost every mmo following the same formula with quests , instances , Leveling chars bashing the same npc 40,000 times etc etc . Staying enthusiasic about the genre after 10+ years of geeking is becoming increasingly difficult . Each game is the same as the one before with different skins , and demands X amount of playtime to stay on par leveling or X amount of time to get "maxxed out " .Even games that have broken the mould and rejected the easy $$ of another wow clone are painfully tedious and drop u right slap bang of the leveling treadmill just like the rest .
So heres a few Question's , Why do MMORPGS need levels ? . Are they anything more than a giant time sink or Lazy content ?? .Does leveling enhance the roleplay or fun ?? .
Let's propose for a minuite that there is no leveling , at char creation you pick a race/class and log in game with enough points to" Max" your char anyway you like within the class limits .
For a start you just free'd up 1000's of hours GM time checking exploiters/macroers etc etc , time that they could and should be spending delivering dynamic content that realy will enhance your roleplaying , weather thats as" Darth Lord Super NPC "in your favorite pve mmo or Directing and enhancing the bloodshed in your favorite open world PVP mmo .
This wouldnt just change the way the GM's in your mmo's work but also the DEV team , think about the countless hours they spend balancing and tweaking the leveling process and all the programing behind it , then tweaking and balancing it again .... and again ..... and again . All this time should be put in to other things FUN game content , maybe once in a while having a original idea .
And this is what a lot of the MMO's are asking themselves now but no one has come up with a solution to the forumula. Final Fantasy 14 is trying that although the release and implementation of it was horrid with the limit per week but it's a step in the right direction the problem is these MMO's dont get the shine the bigger AAA titles do or the draw they do or quite frankly the coverage the others do for other Devs TO take notice.
OP: I think majority MMO players might be students. Someone taking 4 classes and working 20hours a week will not have a lot of time. Maybe hour or 2 hour here and there. Someone taking 5 subjects and working, this guy probably doesn't even have time to relax in rest room.
So I don't think "I don't have enough time" is root of all evil, rather it is healthy for econmy.
With almost every mmo following the same formula with quests , instances , Leveling chars bashing the same npc 40,000 times etc etc . Staying enthusiasic about the genre after 10+ years of geeking is becoming increasingly difficult . Each game is the same as the one before with different skins , and demands X amount of playtime to stay on par leveling or X amount of time to get "maxxed out " .Even games that have broken the mould and rejected the easy $$ of another wow clone are painfully tedious and drop u right slap bang of the leveling treadmill just like the rest .
So heres a few Question's , Why do MMORPGS need levels ? . Are they anything more than a giant time sink or Lazy content ?? .Does leveling enhance the roleplay or fun ?? .
Let's propose for a minuite that there is no leveling , at char creation you pick a race/class and log in game with enough points to" Max" your char anyway you like within the class limits .
For a start you just free'd up 1000's of hours GM time checking exploiters/macroers etc etc , time that they could and should be spending delivering dynamic content that realy will enhance your roleplaying , weather thats as" Darth Lord Super NPC "in your favorite pve mmo or Directing and enhancing the bloodshed in your favorite open world PVP mmo .
This wouldnt just change the way the GM's in your mmo's work but also the DEV team , think about the countless hours they spend balancing and tweaking the leveling process and all the programing behind it , then tweaking and balancing it again .... and again ..... and again . All this time should be put in to other things FUN game content , maybe once in a while having a original idea .
There've been PvP games like that, such as Fury and GW (PvP Characters). FPS games are also similar, in that you are on equal footing ability wise with others, but skillwise you learn and grow with experience. As for a PvE game that offers this, I'd have to see it implemented to really know, but I'm skeptical. I for one like the leveling process. It's fun for me to start off weak and progress into something so strong that passing by a mob that would kill me in one stroke a week ago, will cower at the sight of me now (LOTRO has this). I like gaining new abilities over time, instead of having them handed to me all at once. It gives me time to get used to them, learn their strengths and weaknesses, test them against various types of mobs (melee, magical, those who bring friends), and plus a new ability is a reward for my dedication to my character for X amount of time. In short, I love leveling, I just hate quest grinding.
Edit: and to those who took offense at my "root of all evil" comment, it was a metaphor only...
*raises hand* Sorry about that. There's plenty of people that post things like that and are dead serious, but I should have just considered the source and realized it was more a ctachy phrase than an extreme belief.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't call taking the time to shout for a group for hours before I get to actually DO anything, fun. Sorry, but I don't
I didn't think that was fun when I was just a kid in school that had nothing better to do with my time at home. I don't consider it fun now that I'm in college and getting ready to enter the job market. I won't find it fun when I have a job, house and family to consider.
It's not about 'I don't have enough time.'
It's about 'I don't have enough time TO WASTE."
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
I wasn't suggesting that to create a MMORPG with better socialization we had to return entirely to the old ways, but I do feel we've thrown the baby out with the bath water so to speak and players might find that reasonable downtime or travels would improve socialization and interaction. Of course, I realize some follks (OK, apparently many of them) don't play MMORPG's for their social aspects, they're looking for a "game" rather than a world so it comes down of course to a matter of taste.
But I do reject the argument there isn't enough time. Haven't seen anyone yet who was more time challenged then I (some were about equal) and still I prefer games with deeper playing mechanics even if it takes more time to get to the end. (whatever the end really is)
For all the claims about how much fun the new mechanics are, it seems to me players are less satisfied and generally play for shorter periods of time in any one game more than ever before. They hop from game to game, back and forth seraching for the fun. Once they exhaust the content they move on, and those who tend to stay on usually say a big reason is because their friends or guild are playing so they're really there for the socialization, and not the gameplay.
I know everyone agrees that we don't all have to like the same things, however I still think a pretty amazing MMORPG could be made that would draw a good portion of subscribers if only Developers would break away more from the current MMORPG mold that so many try to copy. Unfortunately when designing games swinging for the park fence seems to be the only way to go so they try on include all the features they think appeals to a particular large segement of the market in hopes of luring them away.
I agree and disagree.
Here's what I think is(was) being missed by current and old school developers.
People don't go to the grocery store to meet people.
People don't sit in the lobby while their car is worked on to meet people.
And they certainly don't roll the window down at the light to chat with the person in the car next to them. Unless she's Liv Tyler, or the person cut them off, or both.
You may recognize the parallels I'm drawing, here. None of those things are natural environments for socialization, so even what little social interaction that occurs in those states doesn't feel very "social".
But they do go places TO meet people. And those places are lacking in most MMO's. Or are at least lacking in DRAW to those places.
In most MMO's, cities are just quest hubs with sell-off merchants, and they sell the same stuff in every town. Here and there you have special vendors, for rep items and stuff. But once you've been to one city, you've for the most part been to them all in terms of vendors, townsfolk, and your interactions with them.
LotRO, for example...
Give players a reason to sit down in the Prancing Pony, or to dance outside by the boar fountain. SWG did this(and subsequently ruined it) with Entertainer buffs. Give "entertainees" a tip jar, and make entertaining a "hobby". Make dancing a "hobby". Make the drinks Butterburr sells USEFUL. etc, etc. Listen to music, drink bevvies for X minutes, gain "hope" for Y minutes. Make some practical use of the MIDI music system...
But IMO, using the older systems of memorizing, slow recovery, long travel, etc. just reminds people of long, dull road trips, and waiting for the pizza to come out of the oven.
I wasn't suggesting that to create a MMORPG with better socialization we had to return entirely to the old ways, but I do feel we've thrown the baby out with the bath water so to speak and players might find that reasonable downtime or travels would improve socialization and interaction. Of course, I realize some follks (OK, apparently many of them) don't play MMORPG's for their social aspects, they're looking for a "game" rather than a world so it comes down of course to a matter of taste.
But I do reject the argument there isn't enough time. Haven't seen anyone yet who was more time challenged then I (some were about equal) and still I prefer games with deeper playing mechanics even if it takes more time to get to the end. (whatever the end really is)
For all the claims about how much fun the new mechanics are, it seems to me players are less satisfied and generally play for shorter periods of time in any one game more than ever before. They hop from game to game, back and forth seraching for the fun. Once they exhaust the content they move on, and those who tend to stay on usually say a big reason is because their friends or guild are playing so they're really there for the socialization, and not the gameplay.
I know everyone agrees that we don't all have to like the same things, however I still think a pretty amazing MMORPG could be made that would draw a good portion of subscribers if only Developers would break away more from the current MMORPG mold that so many try to copy. Unfortunately when designing games swinging for the park fence seems to be the only way to go so they try on include all the features they think appeals to a particular large segement of the market in hopes of luring them away.
I agree and disagree.
Here's what I think is(was) being missed by current and old school developers.
People don't go to the grocery store to meet people.
People don't sit in the lobby while their car is worked on to meet people.
And they certainly don't roll the window down at the light to chat with the person in the car next to them. Unless she's Liv Tyler, or the person cut them off, or both.
You may recognize the parallels I'm drawing, here. None of those things are natural environments for socialization, so even what little social interaction that occurs in those states doesn't feel very "social".
But they do go places TO meet people. And those places are lacking in most MMO's. Or are at least lacking in DRAW to those places.
In most MMO's, cities are just quest hubs with sell-off merchants, and they sell the same stuff in every town. Here and there you have special vendors, for rep items and stuff. But once you've been to one city, you've for the most part been to them all in terms of vendors, townsfolk, and your interactions with them.
LotRO, for example...
Give players a reason to sit down in the Prancing Pony, or to dance outside by the boar fountain. SWG did this(and subsequently ruined it) with Entertainer buffs. Give "entertainees" a tip jar, and make entertaining a "hobby". Make dancing a "hobby". Make the drinks Butterburr sells USEFUL. etc, etc. Listen to music, drink bevvies for X minutes, gain "hope" for Y minutes. Make some practical use of the MIDI music system...
But IMO, using the older systems of memorizing, slow recovery, long travel, etc. just reminds people of long, dull road trips, and waiting for the pizza to come out of the oven.
OP: I think majority MMO players might be students. Someone taking 4 classes and working 20hours a week will not have a lot of time. Maybe hour or 2 hour here and there. Someone taking 5 subjects and working, this guy probably doesn't even have time to relax in rest room.
So I don't think "I don't have enough time" is root of all evil, rather it is healthy for econmy.
Understood, but I'm way past being a student, I clocked 64 hours of work last week, had to take my wife/familty out to dinner serveral times, raked the yard/cleaned the pool for 3 hours, watched a few hours of TV and yet....found time to do a bit of gaming including playing some WOW,. StarCraft 2, dabbled in Xyson and of course posted in my favorite forums.
You know, sleep is highly over-rated right?
I'm not trying to say my life is any busier than anyone elses (OK, maybe I am) but point is, despite all that, I still prefer games with a bit more socialization, wouldn't mind spending some (not hours) of time looking for a good group, or chatting with friends as we waited to teleport back out to Emain (DAOC players know what I mean).
It just seems the pacing of most modern MMO's these days, whether you are soloing or running a dungeon is log in, kill, kill, kill, turn in quest (don't even have to go back to quest giver in many cases,) and then do it all again. I've run the dungeons in WOW, this is exactly how it is. Hell, they go so fast I can barely keep up with the killing much less find time to chat in anyway...soon as the run's done, we run it again.
I know many people favor this style of gameplay, and as someone mentioned, it probably is just a sign of the times. Younger folks are so frantic now in everything they do, I watch my children just bounce between conversations, text messages etc, not surprised they don't care for the same game mechanics that I do.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Originally posted by Kyleran We've all seen it, the phrase "I don't have enough time" used to justify why players demand game mechanics so prevalent in most modern MMORPG's.
Every point you made was completely wrong, and I'm trying to be fair when I say that, unfortunately you are one of these people who clearly started playing this genre later after its originalty died, and/or you just have a differen't idea of what a MMO is suppose to be... Clearly the wrong idea, but different none the less.
What you want out of a MMO could come from a generic RPG, you don't need it to be a MMORPG, a 100% instanced server could fill your desires, but alas, that is NOT a MMO.
I have a pretty good idea of what MMO used to be (I started with Kingdom of Drakkar, WAY before UO & EQ .. and of course play UO beat, and EQ for a year).
Today's MMOs are MUCH better games. There is a reason why DIablo 1/2 are so popular and more MMO features close to it makes MMOs better games.
I *have* limited time and I want my MMO experience to be focus on dungeon romps, not standing around chatting. In fact, a 100% instanced server will be nice if it also supports guilds, and AH. There is NO generic RPG like that and I haven't seen cooperative PvE gameplay (scripted boss encounters) done as well in other online RPGs other than MMOs.
more and more coop/small group PvE games are being made now, havent tried them so couldnt talk about the quality, now you say you want generic and still need a guild and AH why? those is waste of time in generic games...magicka is all new, most people I read seems to enjoy it.
When you do not want to do something any more I find myself saying that a lot. I am talking not only about games but everything in general. My husband will point out but you stay at home what do you mean you do not have the time. I just do not want to do it but it is my standard excuse.
When I played Everquest I was a stay at home mum. If I was still working there was no way I could have played anything I could not even find time to sleep. Any time I had I was out at a night club or drinking with friends I would not have spent it on games that is for sure because I recall what I was like when I was working. But stay at home me had oodles of time even with a toddler.I'd send him to day care and play Everquest.
Here's what I think is(was) being missed by current and old school developers.
People don't go to the grocery store to meet people.
People don't sit in the lobby while their car is worked on to meet people.
And they certainly don't roll the window down at the light to chat with the person in the car next to them. Unless she's Liv Tyler, or the person cut them off, or both.
You may recognize the parallels I'm drawing, here. None of those things are natural environments for socialization, so even what little social interaction that occurs in those states doesn't feel very "social".
But they do go places TO meet people. And those places are lacking in most MMO's. Or are at least lacking in DRAW to those places.
In most MMO's, cities are just quest hubs with sell-off merchants, and they sell the same stuff in every town. Here and there you have special vendors, for rep items and stuff. But once you've been to one city, you've for the most part been to them all in terms of vendors, townsfolk, and your interactions with them.
LotRO, for example...
Give players a reason to sit down in the Prancing Pony, or to dance outside by the boar fountain. SWG did this(and subsequently ruined it) with Entertainer buffs. Give "entertainees" a tip jar, and make entertaining a "hobby". Make dancing a "hobby". Make the drinks Butterburr sells USEFUL. etc, etc. Listen to music, drink bevvies for X minutes, gain "hope" for Y minutes. Make some practical use of the MIDI music system...
But IMO, using the older systems of memorizing, slow recovery, long travel, etc. just reminds people of long, dull road trips, and waiting for the pizza to come out of the oven.
Oh yeah I so agree with you too! And honestly, this is why I think Blizzard's Titan will be two games in one. There will be MMORPG side - exploring, quests, mobs, hunting, raids, dungeons. The other side will be SIMS.
Could you imagine the marriage of the two?!?! You hearth back to your home that you can design and build to the extent of homes in The Sims 3. Some skills like cooking benefit you in both sides of the game. You can have home shows and parties and invite guests over. Decoration ala SWG and EQ2.
I know it sounds like a stretch but just imagine the possibilities. It would require a lot of resources, time, energy and the right kind of design. All things Blizzard has.
It will be interesting to see how it turns out. The challenge will be to draw people into the SIM's part of the game to experience the creations of others, and not just their own. I think the important part of the equation is that a player doesn't consider partaking in the social aspect to be a "waste of time" in terms of character development and progression.
With LotRO, I think this could be done with my above examples, as well as with the rep, trait, and deed systems. Surely, if you spent plenty of nights clanking mugs at the Prancing Pony, you'd get some rep, no?
I also belive that this 'I dont have time' issue, is down to the speed syndrome. All the content must be done within a month and must have the best epic equipment to go with it. If it cant be done then the game must be a grind fest blah blah.
The speed syndrome players must feel they have not fullfilled there game time if they have not had a epic loot drop or killed a major boss.
It seems gone are the days of some casual conversation and setting out on a little adventure to find who knows what, are gone.
Or does this boil down to the Devs giving all players equility. A casual player may feel jealous seeing a player with more time to play sporting some real nice armour, that he/she has earned!
Which reminds me of another post about there being no more hero's. ofc there are no more heros, we all look the damn same. In the same gear it only takes four weeks to aquire.
What concerns me, is games being made for folks that probably wont even play them in a few years, leaving them for the long term players to be dissapointed with.
Comments
No I do not have time. I have 40 hours of classes a week and an additional 15 to 30 hours of homework a week.
So my free time is split between friends, programming(for fun), Physical training(40 to 60 hours in all). So essentially video games exsist when I'm not in the mood to deal with people I know or the familar. And essentially Level grind, long travel times, and repetition are all so familar the 4th or 5th time(first?).
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That said I would love to see a game with a crafting system that is awesome, And was designed so I the player could do as I pleased and mix/min/max with ingrediants I aquire along the way.
I would love to see a game that all together deals away with leveling in favor of meaninful customization.
Essentially my ideal MMO wouldn't be about "maxxing" like virtually EVERY mmo is about. but about Min-maxing.
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I would also love to see balanced open world PvP. But that just doesn't happen as what always happens is that one person min/maxes themselves for whatever the area "has", and the predator min/maxes themselves for what the prey is going to have.
Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.
"At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."
You know, I agree with you. As an old school UO player, which were some of the most fun moments in my life I understand and pretty much agree with your perspective. Unfortunatly, I don't have the time I used too. I work full time an married and am getting a Master's of Business Administration from the University of Texas in the evening program. Over recent years, I still buy the Darkfalls, the Xsyons and other sandboxes that appeal to me but I quit when I realize I just don't have enough time.
I need a game that lets me have fun with a limited time budget. Most people who grew up in the early days of MMO's have this problem, that is, much more responsibilities.
I'd love a game that could figure out a balance.. I hope its Archeage, but perhaps I'll just be dissapointed because I don't have enough time.
Remember Old School Ultima Online
I found this a very good post. Smart, intelligent, to the point and supporting all views. It even explains the historical evolution of on line play and the way the smart companies will evolve.
Certainly the last 3 sentences are catchy.
I have a pretty good idea of what MMO used to be (I started with Kingdom of Drakkar, WAY before UO & EQ .. and of course play UO beat, and EQ for a year).
Today's MMOs are MUCH better games. There is a reason why DIablo 1/2 are so popular and more MMO features close to it makes MMOs better games.
I *have* limited time and I want my MMO experience to be focus on dungeon romps, not standing around chatting. In fact, a 100% instanced server will be nice if it also supports guilds, and AH. There is NO generic RPG like that and I haven't seen cooperative PvE gameplay (scripted boss encounters) done as well in other online RPGs other than MMOs.
Going to attempt to reply to a couple of points people made in the thread so far.
Regarding fair and balanced open world PVP.... I didn't quite mean it that way, I wasn't implying that PVP needs to be fair and balanced and as some other folks pointed out, in some MMO's (i.e. DAOC, EVE) it's quite possible for a small, well organized team to withstand and even overcome "the zerg". (but that's a topic for a different thread) Trouble is now, fair and balanced combat seems to be the order of the day with controlled BG's and arena's where sometimes class/gear mechanics leave no opporutnity for player tactics and strategy to win the day. (Sort of all comes down to he who clicks the bestest wins)
I wasn't suggesting that to create a MMORPG with better socialization we had to return entirely to the old ways, but I do feel we've thrown the baby out with the bath water so to speak and players might find that reasonable downtime or travels would improve socialization and interaction. Of course, I realize some follks (OK, apparently many of them) don't play MMORPG's for their social aspects, they're looking for a "game" rather than a world so it comes down of course to a matter of taste.
But I do reject the argument there isn't enough time. Haven't seen anyone yet who was more time challenged then I (some were about equal) and still I prefer games with deeper playing mechanics even if it takes more time to get to the end. (whatever the end really is)
For all the claims about how much fun the new mechanics are, it seems to me players are less satisfied and generally play for shorter periods of time in any one game more than ever before. They hop from game to game, back and forth seraching for the fun. Once they exhaust the content they move on, and those who tend to stay on usually say a big reason is because their friends or guild are playing so they're really there for the socialization, and not the gameplay.
I know everyone agrees that we don't all have to like the same things, however I still think a pretty amazing MMORPG could be made that would draw a good portion of subscribers if only Developers would break away more from the current MMORPG mold that so many try to copy. Unfortunately when designing games swinging for the park fence seems to be the only way to go so they try on include all the features they think appeals to a particular large segement of the market in hopes of luring them away.
I'll keep the faith, one day there's bound to be a developer who makes something that really feels a bit different who will be reasonably successful (there are a few already I'll grant you) and we'll see more choice open up for folks whose playing style is more like my own.
Edit: and to those who took offense at my "root of all evil" comment, it was a metaphor only, and a catchy way to say 'reason why lots of great game mechanics are no longer part of current MMORPG design philosophy. See, it was easier the first time around.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
My first MMORPG was DAOC, and being my first MMORPG, it was magical and life changing for me. Getting together with several other players that are killing stuff in the zone to kill harder stuff as a cohesive group was fun. It got me hooked on group play. I'd spend hours with other players doing this. It would take a while to get to a camp, and a while to fight through to the mobs that grant the best experience. It also took 20 min on average to get to one place to another riding a horse (equivalent to WoW FP's). RVRing or playing in the BG's, which were just minature RVR battlegrounds also were a blast and took hours of my time. So I definitely understand the draw of the yesteryears games. However, as a person grows older and becomes more responsible, we still want to enjoy MMORPG's, since they offer a value not offered by FPS games or single player RPG's, but we can't commit hours a day playing them and still be responsible.
Most people eventually have full-time jobs, outside of game friends, get married, and have children. Not to mention you still have a mother and father, brothers and/or sisters, and etc. to divide your time amongst. But let's just say the bare minimum, a person has kids, a full-time job, a significant other, and friends. How can anyone with all of that possibly dedicate several hours a day to sitting in front of a computer playing a video game. It just isn't responsible.
We all need our alone time as human beings, and we all have different hobbies to occupy us during that alone time. We're all here, because on of those hobbies is MMORPG's. But, every hour you spend on a MMORPG is an hour that could have been spent playing with your kids or teaching them something, spending time with your friends or significant other, or socializing outside the game. All I'm saying is that the responsible person has to balance their time to not only make time for themselves, but for their other responsibilities.
So people who say they don't have enough time for the yesteryear MMORPG timesinks are the majority of players who make up the MMORPG adult population. Any adult asking for MMORPG features that require you to be online for several hours at a time in order to get something meaningful accomplished are being irresponsible. I'm not judging others for the way they choose to live their lives, or the people in the real world that are neglected in order to satisfy their ingame whims, but to ask for developers to cater to that lifestyle isn't logical.
So while I'd love to group up with people and grind on mobs in open terrain or in a dungeon, while chatting and making new friends, I think having mounts, teleportation, and reduced travel times is a good thing. I don't think speeding up the leveling process caters to people without much time, rather I think it caters to people who are impatient. WoW's dungeon finder allows for people who love to group with others and overcome obstacles too hard to do solo to do so in a short amount of time. Now I can find a group in as little as 10-15 minutes, which while I'm waiting I can sell stuff on the AH, continue on some interesting quest arcs that are solo friendly, or chat with whoever. Then when the que pops, I'm grouping up and battling mobs for 45 min to 1.5 hours. In return, I get good xp and good loot. The same endeavor in DAoC would take me 3-4 hours, not counting the time to follow a good quest line.
So MMORPG's have made getting to the fun a lot faster, but has also made the path of least resistence anti-social (questing). So I don't think removing timesinks was a bad thing or that adding them back in is a good idea. Rather, I think that making games a solo quest grind is what hurt socialization, and removing them and replacing it with public quest systems and open grouping would progress the genre, while also going towards the direction of the genre's roots.
I'm in your age-group and played the early MMOs, so I have noticed the changes--particularly in games like WOW that are full of convenience features and where running dungeons in PUGs feel like a race.
I think a lot of people in this thread are on the wrong track though. I think it has much less to do with gamers aging and acquiring the inevitable responsibilities that go along with that. The main reason why games have evolved this way has a lot more to do with some very significant cultural changes that have happened in the past decade: we've gone from a world with very casual cell phone and internet usage to one with a constant barrage of texts and instant messages where the most popular internet activities (facebook, twitter) are all about the quick interaction. We've come to expect instant gratification as the norm and our attention spans have shorttened significantly. Current MMO design simply reflects that.
As a matter of fact, it's much more likely for us old timers to think we want to play at a slower pace, stopping to smell the roses...I suspect most teen and early 20's players (by far the biggest MMO market) listen to us go on about thre good old days and just say WTF?? As a matter of fact, most of them stopped reading this post back around "inevitable responsibilities"
The short answer would be: "It's a sign of the times."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
If you have a strict definition of fun, you may be doing it wrong.
Heres my thoughts .
With almost every mmo following the same formula with quests , instances , Leveling chars bashing the same npc 40,000 times etc etc . Staying enthusiasic about the genre after 10+ years of geeking is becoming increasingly difficult . Each game is the same as the one before with different skins , and demands X amount of playtime to stay on par leveling or X amount of time to get "maxxed out " .Even games that have broken the mould and rejected the easy $$ of another wow clone are painfully tedious and drop u right slap bang of the leveling treadmill just like the rest .
So heres a few Question's , Why do MMORPGS need levels ? . Are they anything more than a giant time sink or Lazy content ?? .Does leveling enhance the roleplay or fun ?? .
Let's propose for a minuite that there is no leveling , at char creation you pick a race/class and log in game with enough points to" Max" your char anyway you like within the class limits .
For a start you just free'd up 1000's of hours GM time checking exploiters/macroers etc etc , time that they could and should be spending delivering dynamic content that realy will enhance your roleplaying , weather thats as" Darth Lord Super NPC "in your favorite pve mmo or Directing and enhancing the bloodshed in your favorite open world PVP mmo .
This wouldnt just change the way the GM's in your mmo's work but also the DEV team , think about the countless hours they spend balancing and tweaking the leveling process and all the programing behind it , then tweaking and balancing it again .... and again ..... and again . All this time should be put in to other things FUN game content , maybe once in a while having a original idea .
Even this is the wrong mindframe. What 1 person may find fun another may find tedious. What 1 person finds the best aspect of something the other can find it the worst. The problem is finding a middle ground and it will never be found as one side will always feel left out of their game of choice. There is no right or wrong to what people find fun or boring it's just personal preference and finding a game that suits those preferences. The problem is when both sides feel ENTITLED to what they want in an MMO that a lot of other people play and that goes for young players and older players.
While you are right and the easiest way to cater to both groups that want the solo grind maybe because of play time requirements or it's just their cup of tea, would be to make these optional. 1 reason I loved AND hated Final fantasy XI was it's community. On one hand the help from the community for one another on the servers was outstanding, however on the other hand I didn't like having to ask 5 other people to hold my hand for the most remdial tasks.
its the same as the one about the fail of the world...
GREED
Stupid ppl are not really to blame because if greed didnt exist, they wouldnt have been created either
And this is what a lot of the MMO's are asking themselves now but no one has come up with a solution to the forumula. Final Fantasy 14 is trying that although the release and implementation of it was horrid with the limit per week but it's a step in the right direction the problem is these MMO's dont get the shine the bigger AAA titles do or the draw they do or quite frankly the coverage the others do for other Devs TO take notice.
OP: I think majority MMO players might be students. Someone taking 4 classes and working 20hours a week will not have a lot of time. Maybe hour or 2 hour here and there. Someone taking 5 subjects and working, this guy probably doesn't even have time to relax in rest room.
So I don't think "I don't have enough time" is root of all evil, rather it is healthy for econmy.
Guild Wars 2's 50 minutes game play video:
http://n4g.com/news/592585/guild-wars-2-50-minutes-of-pure-gameplay
Everything We Know about GW2:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/287180/page/1
There've been PvP games like that, such as Fury and GW (PvP Characters). FPS games are also similar, in that you are on equal footing ability wise with others, but skillwise you learn and grow with experience. As for a PvE game that offers this, I'd have to see it implemented to really know, but I'm skeptical. I for one like the leveling process. It's fun for me to start off weak and progress into something so strong that passing by a mob that would kill me in one stroke a week ago, will cower at the sight of me now (LOTRO has this). I like gaining new abilities over time, instead of having them handed to me all at once. It gives me time to get used to them, learn their strengths and weaknesses, test them against various types of mobs (melee, magical, those who bring friends), and plus a new ability is a reward for my dedication to my character for X amount of time. In short, I love leveling, I just hate quest grinding.
*raises hand* Sorry about that. There's plenty of people that post things like that and are dead serious, but I should have just considered the source and realized it was more a ctachy phrase than an extreme belief.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't call taking the time to shout for a group for hours before I get to actually DO anything, fun. Sorry, but I don't
I didn't think that was fun when I was just a kid in school that had nothing better to do with my time at home. I don't consider it fun now that I'm in college and getting ready to enter the job market. I won't find it fun when I have a job, house and family to consider.
It's not about 'I don't have enough time.'
It's about 'I don't have enough time TO WASTE."
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
You cannot do it wrong. If you are having fun you're doing it right. No one else can define fun for you.
I agree and disagree.
Here's what I think is(was) being missed by current and old school developers.
People don't go to the grocery store to meet people.
People don't sit in the lobby while their car is worked on to meet people.
And they certainly don't roll the window down at the light to chat with the person in the car next to them. Unless she's Liv Tyler, or the person cut them off, or both.
You may recognize the parallels I'm drawing, here. None of those things are natural environments for socialization, so even what little social interaction that occurs in those states doesn't feel very "social".
But they do go places TO meet people. And those places are lacking in most MMO's. Or are at least lacking in DRAW to those places.
In most MMO's, cities are just quest hubs with sell-off merchants, and they sell the same stuff in every town. Here and there you have special vendors, for rep items and stuff. But once you've been to one city, you've for the most part been to them all in terms of vendors, townsfolk, and your interactions with them.
LotRO, for example...
Give players a reason to sit down in the Prancing Pony, or to dance outside by the boar fountain. SWG did this(and subsequently ruined it) with Entertainer buffs. Give "entertainees" a tip jar, and make entertaining a "hobby". Make dancing a "hobby". Make the drinks Butterburr sells USEFUL. etc, etc. Listen to music, drink bevvies for X minutes, gain "hope" for Y minutes. Make some practical use of the MIDI music system...
But IMO, using the older systems of memorizing, slow recovery, long travel, etc. just reminds people of long, dull road trips, and waiting for the pizza to come out of the oven.
This ^ i would buy
Understood, but I'm way past being a student, I clocked 64 hours of work last week, had to take my wife/familty out to dinner serveral times, raked the yard/cleaned the pool for 3 hours, watched a few hours of TV and yet....found time to do a bit of gaming including playing some WOW,. StarCraft 2, dabbled in Xyson and of course posted in my favorite forums.
You know, sleep is highly over-rated right?
I'm not trying to say my life is any busier than anyone elses (OK, maybe I am) but point is, despite all that, I still prefer games with a bit more socialization, wouldn't mind spending some (not hours) of time looking for a good group, or chatting with friends as we waited to teleport back out to Emain (DAOC players know what I mean).
It just seems the pacing of most modern MMO's these days, whether you are soloing or running a dungeon is log in, kill, kill, kill, turn in quest (don't even have to go back to quest giver in many cases,) and then do it all again. I've run the dungeons in WOW, this is exactly how it is. Hell, they go so fast I can barely keep up with the killing much less find time to chat in anyway...soon as the run's done, we run it again.
I know many people favor this style of gameplay, and as someone mentioned, it probably is just a sign of the times. Younger folks are so frantic now in everything they do, I watch my children just bounce between conversations, text messages etc, not surprised they don't care for the same game mechanics that I do.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Mighty fine post. I salute you.
more and more coop/small group PvE games are being made now, havent tried them so couldnt talk about the quality, now you say you want generic and still need a guild and AH why? those is waste of time in generic games...magicka is all new, most people I read seems to enjoy it.
When you do not want to do something any more I find myself saying that a lot. I am talking not only about games but everything in general. My husband will point out but you stay at home what do you mean you do not have the time. I just do not want to do it but it is my standard excuse.
When I played Everquest I was a stay at home mum. If I was still working there was no way I could have played anything I could not even find time to sleep. Any time I had I was out at a night club or drinking with friends I would not have spent it on games that is for sure because I recall what I was like when I was working. But stay at home me had oodles of time even with a toddler.I'd send him to day care and play Everquest.
It will be interesting to see how it turns out. The challenge will be to draw people into the SIM's part of the game to experience the creations of others, and not just their own. I think the important part of the equation is that a player doesn't consider partaking in the social aspect to be a "waste of time" in terms of character development and progression.
With LotRO, I think this could be done with my above examples, as well as with the rep, trait, and deed systems. Surely, if you spent plenty of nights clanking mugs at the Prancing Pony, you'd get some rep, no?
I also belive that this 'I dont have time' issue, is down to the speed syndrome. All the content must be done within a month and must have the best epic equipment to go with it. If it cant be done then the game must be a grind fest blah blah.
The speed syndrome players must feel they have not fullfilled there game time if they have not had a epic loot drop or killed a major boss.
It seems gone are the days of some casual conversation and setting out on a little adventure to find who knows what, are gone.
Or does this boil down to the Devs giving all players equility. A casual player may feel jealous seeing a player with more time to play sporting some real nice armour, that he/she has earned!
Which reminds me of another post about there being no more hero's. ofc there are no more heros, we all look the damn same. In the same gear it only takes four weeks to aquire.
What concerns me, is games being made for folks that probably wont even play them in a few years, leaving them for the long term players to be dissapointed with.