Going to attempt to reply to a couple of points people made in the thread so far.
Regarding fair and balanced open world PVP.... I didn't quite mean it that way, I wasn't implying that PVP needs to be fair and balanced and as some other folks pointed out, in some MMO's (i.e. DAOC, EVE) it's quite possible for a small, well organized team to withstand and even overcome "the zerg". (but that's a topic for a different thread) Trouble is now, fair and balanced combat seems to be the order of the day with controlled BG's and arena's where sometimes class/gear mechanics leave no opporutnity for player tactics and strategy to win the day. (Sort of all comes down to he who clicks the bestest wins)
I wasn't suggesting that to create a MMORPG with better socialization we had to return entirely to the old ways, but I do feel we've thrown the baby out with the bath water so to speak and players might find that reasonable downtime or travels would improve socialization and interaction. Of course, I realize some follks (OK, apparently many of them) don't play MMORPG's for their social aspects, they're looking for a "game" rather than a world so it comes down of course to a matter of taste.
But I do reject the argument there isn't enough time. Haven't seen anyone yet who was more time challenged then I (some were about equal) and still I prefer games with deeper playing mechanics even if it takes more time to get to the end. (whatever the end really is)
For all the claims about how much fun the new mechanics are, it seems to me players are less satisfied and generally play for shorter periods of time in any one game more than ever before. They hop from game to game, back and forth seraching for the fun. Once they exhaust the content they move on, and those who tend to stay on usually say a big reason is because their friends or guild are playing so they're really there for the socialization, and not the gameplay.
I know everyone agrees that we don't all have to like the same things, however I still think a pretty amazing MMORPG could be made that would draw a good portion of subscribers if only Developers would break away more from the current MMORPG mold that so many try to copy. Unfortunately when designing games swinging for the park fence seems to be the only way to go so they try on include all the features they think appeals to a particular large segement of the market in hopes of luring them away.
I'll keep the faith, one day there's bound to be a developer who makes something that really feels a bit different who will be reasonably successful (there are a few already I'll grant you) and we'll see more choice open up for folks whose playing style is more like my own.
Edit: and to those who took offense at my "root of all evil" comment, it was a metaphor only, and a catchy way to say 'reason why lots of great game mechanics are no longer part of current MMORPG design philosophy. See, it was easier the first time around.
The thing is I don't understand why PVP shouldn't be balanced. Even in the most lackluster MMO's PVP needs to be balanced and even in these lackluster MMOs (Unless the design is very poor) the small group can still beat and repel the "zerg" and a lot of games offer the tactical stuff however most MMORPGs overlook the strategic because lets be real not everyone can be an armchair Patton, so most people do just hit buttons, but most systems still reward those that can think for themselves. What gets to be a problem is when 30 people jump on a group that is doing something and they win just cause of numbers. I ran into A LOT of this in Warcraft. You know 500 people go raid my city when the population would be sleeping and such.
What is your definition of "downtime" maybe I'm unclear of what you mean by downtime. As for traveling the only socialising you will get is with your guild and friends. However think of it in this respect as well. People would be less likely to help lower level people if they had to spend 20 minutes just getting to a certain place. Then bring into the solo player you mentioned who are just looking for a game. There will come a time in any and every MMO that is out there where they will be forced into a group situation because they have progressed as far as they can and are at a brick wall. This person will be forced to find some people with a like mind: ie joining a guild and such. While at first yes they will be there only to use these people as a means to an end but 99% of these people will end up forming bonds/friendships with these people. Thus his "game" becomes his "world" you found your world earlier in the game than this person did but it did not make your trip any better or the start of his journey any less significant.
There are games with fun mechanics but then there are mechanics to things that just plain are bad design. One that pops into my mind is a Heroic Dungeon in Warcraft that you were basically one shotted by a boss if it hit you. Now take into consideration if you lagged out or stuttered for a second you were screwed and it's not any fault of your own it's your internet connection and or the server. The mechancis in Final Fantasy XI I loved yet I HATED it at the same time. You were always in a group (No dungeons to run you leveled in the open world) and you had to time when you used what weapon skills and the next person would go with their weapon skill and it would create a skill chain and than the mages had 5 seconds to nuke to get bonus damage. While I loved all of that the downfall was I had to have 5 other people hold my hand while doing the most boring tasks. There is taking more time to get to the "end" and then there is just unecessary fillers. Hell in Final Fantasy XI it wasn't uncommon to get into groups for anywhere above 4 hours just to "grind" the exp. If you didn't get into these groups it take you AGES to level, I would know it took my wife 3 or 4 years to hit the cap.
The reason people jump MMO's well some people is there is no real tie down to your characters anymore. I've quit WoW before sold my account but I've came back and didn't care I didn't have my old character. Why? Because everytime I wanted to do another job I had to switch to a whole nother character and level it up. Where is the sense of pride in your character if you're not needed you have to completly swap that character out? While I liked WoW's approach to allowing various talent trees it and every other MMO is still the same in the end EXCEPT Final Fantasy XI and I'm sure a few others out there. They will allow you to completely switch your job from say Warrior to White mage therefor you dont have to switch characters so you can form more of a bond if that's what you want to call it with your character there's no incentive to keep playing a toon rather than to keep upgrading that 1 set of armor or 2 sets and move on. Also the moving on part can be attributed to all the games feeling like "Been there done that" and a basis of everyone having a closed mind of actually going into another genre of MMO so they wander around aimlessly trying to find what does it for them, and what sparked that fire for them in the first game they played or the first few months of a game they played just to find out they miss the original game, it's a vicious cycle.
As for a developer coming along and trying to build a game that can not copy something and branch out from the same old tried and true method the problem isn't within the developers themselves it's in the investors, publishers, CEO's, ect. basically people who have no idea or clue about what people want from MMORPGs and such not to mention they are all run like any other corporation: More Revenue less actual money spent on development. You can build an IP from the ground up full of lore that takes years, you think the suits that just dumped 500,000.00 into production want to wait for an investment return, or even the publisher that picks up these games, no they want more of a quick return on their investment so they start dabbling with the developmental process to poke and prod it along faster and make it become more and more like the juggernaut that will return investments.
There are already MMOs out there trying to change the formula but they don't get the attention others do. I will put in Final Fantasy XIV which changes the way you level completly but because of wrong implementation and things of that nature it marred the game for now. Right now they are losing revenue keeping servers up ect, hopefully the game will become profitable at one point but do you think the investors, publisher, developer will try to branch out again? No because they've lost money and now they are like jilted lovers.
And for some people they really do not have the time regardless of how you try to compare time to them. Whlie you find value in say spending 15 hours online killing stuff they might only have 5 hours due to other obligations family school work whatever the case may be. They want to see the content and do what you do but they want to move at the same speed you do just because someone has more time to offer on a game than someone else does not make them better players or that they have ADD ADHD or whatever. They log on to escape into the world just as you do but for shorter bursts why should they feel any less important to that world than you?
I also belive that this 'I dont have time' issue, is down to the speed syndrome. All the content must be done within a month and must have the best epic equipment to go with it. If it cant be done then the game must be a grind fest blah blah.
The speed syndrome players must feel they have not fullfilled there game time if they have not had a epic loot drop or killed a major boss.
It seems gone are the days of some casual conversation and setting out on a little adventure to find who knows what, are gone.
Or does this boil down to the Devs giving all players equility. A casual player may feel jealous seeing a player with more time to play sporting some real nice armour, that he/she has earned!
Which reminds me of another post about there being no more hero's. ofc there are no more heros, we all look the damn same. In the same gear it only takes four weeks to aquire.
What concerns me, is games being made for folks that probably wont even play them in a few years, leaving them for the long term players to be dissapointed with.
The 'speed' thing is relative. I could be doing something for hours and if it is engaging and challenging it only feels like a few minutes have passed. Doing a grindy activity for fifteen mnutes can feel like an eternity.
As far as the gear vs heroism issue I always shudder at the delusional people who think that having the best gear makes them 'heroic' or even 'good players'. It is obscenely superficial. Gear should be fairly easy to obtain and the measure of a player should be determined by what they do and not what gear they grinded for.
Here's what I think is(was) being missed by current and old school developers.
People don't go to the grocery store to meet people.
People don't sit in the lobby while their car is worked on to meet people.
And they certainly don't roll the window down at the light to chat with the person in the car next to them. Unless she's Liv Tyler, or the person cut them off, or both.
You may recognize the parallels I'm drawing, here. None of those things are natural environments for socialization, so even what little social interaction that occurs in those states doesn't feel very "social".
But they do go places TO meet people. And those places are lacking in most MMO's. Or are at least lacking in DRAW to those places.
In most MMO's, cities are just quest hubs with sell-off merchants, and they sell the same stuff in every town. Here and there you have special vendors, for rep items and stuff. But once you've been to one city, you've for the most part been to them all in terms of vendors, townsfolk, and your interactions with them.
LotRO, for example...
Give players a reason to sit down in the Prancing Pony, or to dance outside by the boar fountain. SWG did this(and subsequently ruined it) with Entertainer buffs. Give "entertainees" a tip jar, and make entertaining a "hobby". Make dancing a "hobby". Make the drinks Butterburr sells USEFUL. etc, etc. Listen to music, drink bevvies for X minutes, gain "hope" for Y minutes. Make some practical use of the MIDI music system...
But IMO, using the older systems of memorizing, slow recovery, long travel, etc. just reminds people of long, dull road trips, and waiting for the pizza to come out of the oven.
Oh yeah I so agree with you too! And honestly, this is why I think Blizzard's Titan will be two games in one. There will be MMORPG side - exploring, quests, mobs, hunting, raids, dungeons. The other side will be SIMS.
Could you imagine the marriage of the two?!?! You hearth back to your home that you can design and build to the extent of homes in The Sims 3. Some skills like cooking benefit you in both sides of the game. You can have home shows and parties and invite guests over. Decoration ala SWG and EQ2.
I know it sounds like a stretch but just imagine the possibilities. It would require a lot of resources, time, energy and the right kind of design. All things Blizzard has.
It will be interesting to see how it turns out. The challenge will be to draw people into the SIM's part of the game to experience the creations of others, and not just their own. I think the important part of the equation is that a player doesn't consider partaking in the social aspect to be a "waste of time" in terms of character development and progression.
With LotRO, I think this could be done with my above examples, as well as with the rep, trait, and deed systems. Surely, if you spent plenty of nights clanking mugs at the Prancing Pony, you'd get some rep, no?
I agree with this 100%.
People often use the argument, well, if you want to chat, you can just do that.
But people will not, because tehy do feel they are "losing game time".
Hell, they can chat anywhere online, why do it in an MMORPG if I COULD be making xp or crafting?
But when you ad activities where you are accomplishing something, and AT THE SAME TIME you can chat, people will.
If drinking in the tavern for 10 minutes gives you buffs for an hour, people will gladly do that before they go questing or mob grinding, and chat while they do it.
If drinking in the tavern does nothing, they won't do it becuase they COULD be grinding xp or completing quests, crafting, etc.
It's "opportunity costs".
I have 4 hours to play the game. So I have to choose my activities, and if I do one thing, I am giving up another.
If I choose to chat, I am giving up XP. If I XP I am giving up chat.
But if I can chat, and that doesn't cost me XP or gives me some other in game advantage I want anyway, there's no opportunity cost. In that case, chatting is "free".
But when you ad activities where you are accomplishing something, and AT THE SAME TIME you can chat, people will.
If drinking in the tavern for 10 minutes gives you buffs for an hour, people will gladly do that before they go questing or mob grinding, and chat while they do it.
If drinking in the tavern does nothing, they won't do it becuase they COULD be grinding xp or completing quests, crafting, etc.
It's "opportunity costs".
I have 4 hours to play the game. So I have to choose my activities, and if I do one thing, I am giving up another.
If I choose to chat, I am giving up XP. If I XP I am giving up chat.
But if I can chat, and that doesn't cost me XP or gives me some other in game advantage I want anyway, there's no opportunity cost. In that case, chatting is "free".
If a game forced me to sit in a tavern for 10 minutes and do nothing I would just as likely alt-tab to check my emails, post on a forums or watch a video on Youtube. Doing so during a forced downtime in the game frees up more time to play the game.
I am more likely to chat whan I am active in the game and opportunity cost of doing out-of-game activities is way higher.
Come to think of it the crafting channel in both Vanguard and Everquest 2 used to be a great place to chat. We were trapped sort of crafting so chatting was just natural.
But when you ad activities where you are accomplishing something, and AT THE SAME TIME you can chat, people will.
If drinking in the tavern for 10 minutes gives you buffs for an hour, people will gladly do that before they go questing or mob grinding, and chat while they do it.
If drinking in the tavern does nothing, they won't do it becuase they COULD be grinding xp or completing quests, crafting, etc.
It's "opportunity costs".
I have 4 hours to play the game. So I have to choose my activities, and if I do one thing, I am giving up another.
If I choose to chat, I am giving up XP. If I XP I am giving up chat.
But if I can chat, and that doesn't cost me XP or gives me some other in game advantage I want anyway, there's no opportunity cost. In that case, chatting is "free".
If a game forced me to sit in a tavern for 10 minutes and do nothing I would just as likely alt-tab to check my emails, post on a forums or watch a video on Youtube. Doing so during a forced downtime in the game frees up more time to play the game.
I am more likely to chat whan I am active in the game and opportunity cost of doing out-of-game activities is way higher.
Ihmotepp nailed the core of the socializing issue. Even the stalwart battle-worn veterans who proudly bear the scars of Ye Olde Grynde Systeme are not going to log in to socialize if it gets in the way of their XPz and epics. They are guilty of the same crime/sin/flaw/[insertnegativetermhere]/etc that they accuse all those newcomer whippersnappers of. That is why they want to impose downtime on others - to force others to have to talk to them.
I had too much fun writing that. Take it with a grain of salt.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Going to attempt to reply to a couple of points people made in the thread so far.
The thing is I don't understand why PVP shouldn't be balanced. Even in the most lackluster MMO's PVP needs to be balanced and even in these lackluster MMOs (Unless the design is very poor) the small group can still beat and repel the "zerg" and a lot of games offer the tactical stuff however most MMORPGs overlook the strategic because lets be real not everyone can be an armchair Patton, so most people do just hit buttons, but most systems still reward those that can think for themselves. What gets to be a problem is when 30 people jump on a group that is doing something and they win just cause of numbers. I ran into A LOT of this in Warcraft. You know 500 people go raid my city when the population would be sleeping and such.
There is a real sense of satisfaction when your group is able to succeed against superior numbers. I've been part of smaller groups that have devesated much larger ones, and been on receiving end of such beatings far more often. (rarely do I end up in an elite team, just don't have the skills) Games such as EVE and DAOC provided mechanics (such as sleep/root/strategy) the enabled this to happen with great frequency. WOW is not a good example of such a game, they go more for the balanced fight approach.
What is your definition of "downtime" maybe I'm unclear of what you mean by downtime. As for traveling the only socialising you will get is with your guild and friends. However think of it in this respect as well. People would be less likely to help lower level people if they had to spend 20 minutes just getting to a certain place. Then bring into the solo player you mentioned who are just looking for a game. There will come a time in any and every MMO that is out there where they will be forced into a group situation because they have progressed as far as they can and are at a brick wall. This person will be forced to find some people with a like mind: ie joining a guild and such. While at first yes they will be there only to use these people as a means to an end but 99% of these people will end up forming bonds/friendships with these people. Thus his "game" becomes his "world" you found your world earlier in the game than this person did but it did not make your trip any better or the start of his journey any less significant.
The better qualifier for downtime isn't travel (which pretty much sucks even if there are benefits to it) but in downtime between fights. In early MMORPG's, players (and groups) had to manage their "resources", such as hit points, mana and energy. Players had to be careful to try and win the fight as efficiently as possible to minimize a loss of HP's, mana or what have you because it took time to regenerate them. (up to 2 or 3 minutes, more if everyone wiped). Regardless how effcient your group was, eventually you had to sit down and rest. (which could be reduced by including certain classes in your group who had the power to speed up regeneration - socialization mechanic). It was during these down times when some of the most engaging conversations would happen, and no voice chat doesn't make it better, you know why? Because with voice chat only one or two people can really talk at a time, or it becomes shouting match. (and raid leaders tell everyone to shut up). When we all chatted it didn't matter if a dozen folks chimed in and you responded to the conversations you wanted to.
There are games with fun mechanics but then there are mechanics to things that just plain are bad design. One that pops into my mind is a Heroic Dungeon in Warcraft that you were basically one shotted by a boss if it hit you. Now take into consideration if you lagged out or stuttered for a second you were screwed and it's not any fault of your own it's your internet connection and or the server. The mechancis in Final Fantasy XI I loved yet I HATED it at the same time. You were always in a group (No dungeons to run you leveled in the open world) and you had to time when you used what weapon skills and the next person would go with their weapon skill and it would create a skill chain and than the mages had 5 seconds to nuke to get bonus damage. While I loved all of that the downfall was I had to have 5 other people hold my hand while doing the most boring tasks. There is taking more time to get to the "end" and then there is just unecessary fillers. Hell in Final Fantasy XI it wasn't uncommon to get into groups for anywhere above 4 hours just to "grind" the exp. If you didn't get into these groups it take you AGES to level, I would know it took my wife 3 or 4 years to hit the cap.
Well you've given a good example of some of the good benefits of the older features coupled with some of the bad. I understand they needed to take out the bad when designing new games, but I feel they went too far and entirely tossed out mechanics that enable for better social interaction and gameplay.
The reason people jump MMO's well some people is there is no real tie down to your characters anymore. I've quit WoW before sold my account but I've came back and didn't care I didn't have my old character. Why? Because everytime I wanted to do another job I had to switch to a whole nother character and level it up. Where is the sense of pride in your character if you're not needed you have to completly swap that character out? While I liked WoW's approach to allowing various talent trees it and every other MMO is still the same in the end EXCEPT Final Fantasy XI and I'm sure a few others out there. They will allow you to completely switch your job from say Warrior to White mage therefor you dont have to switch characters so you can form more of a bond if that's what you want to call it with your character there's no incentive to keep playing a toon rather than to keep upgrading that 1 set of armor or 2 sets and move on. Also the moving on part can be attributed to all the games feeling like "Been there done that" and a basis of everyone having a closed mind of actually going into another genre of MMO so they wander around aimlessly trying to find what does it for them, and what sparked that fire for them in the first game they played or the first few months of a game they played just to find out they miss the original game, it's a vicious cycle.
While there is some nostaliga involved, there's no denying that today's games are very different from the early ones in a lot of ways. Sure, most of the items are improvements in most peoples eyes, but there are those of us who don't feel having arrows lead us to our quest target is the way to do. We actually used to shout in local back in the day for assistance, and amazingly not only did other players answer back, often times they'd just decide to come with and help even if they weren't someone you knew. I rarely see anything like that in WOW or other modern MMO's.
As for a developer coming along and trying to build a game that can not copy something and branch out from the same old tried and true method the problem isn't within the developers themselves it's in the investors, publishers, CEO's, ect. basically people who have no idea or clue about what people want from MMORPGs and such not to mention they are all run like any other corporation: More Revenue less actual money spent on development. You can build an IP from the ground up full of lore that takes years, you think the suits that just dumped 500,000.00 into production want to wait for an investment return, or even the publisher that picks up these games, no they want more of a quick return on their investment so they start dabbling with the developmental process to poke and prod it along faster and make it become more and more like the juggernaut that will return investments.
I won't deny it, Developers have to make something that will turn a big profit, and I understand why MMORPG's have gone they way they have. I'll be very interested in how Rift fares, people have claimed the reason previous "wow clones" have been less than spectacular in terms of subs is because they launched prematurely and full of bugs and missing features. Rift is supposed to be releasing a full featured, polished MMORPG and it will be interesting to see if they can draw big sub numbers with the standard forumla. I suspect perhaps if they fail other Developers might quit chasing the holy grail and try a few more new (or old) things.
There are already MMOs out there trying to change the formula but they don't get the attention others do. I will put in Final Fantasy XIV which changes the way you level completly but because of wrong implementation and things of that nature it marred the game for now. Right now they are losing revenue keeping servers up ect, hopefully the game will become profitable at one point but do you think the investors, publisher, developer will try to branch out again? No because they've lost money and now they are like jilted lovers.
Well its true, different isn't always better. Dev's walk a thin line here and it looks like the folks at SE botched the job with FFXIV.
And for some people they really do not have the time regardless of how you try to compare time to them. Whlie you find value in say spending 15 hours online killing stuff they might only have 5 hours due to other obligations family school work whatever the case may be. They want to see the content and do what you do but they want to move at the same speed you do just because someone has more time to offer on a game than someone else does not make them better players or that they have ADD ADHD or whatever. They log on to escape into the world just as you do but for shorter bursts why should they feel any less important to that world than you?
I'm not suggesting that they are less important, but at some point Dev's have include design features that appeal to their target market's time availablity. Obviously the time crunch bunch is one of the larger demographics and almost every game chases after it. (understandably). But in the mean time MMORPG's really have lost their soul and its a shame really, and although I have to accept it, I don't have to like it, and I certainly can share my thoughts on it at sites like MMORPG.com
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
But when you ad activities where you are accomplishing something, and AT THE SAME TIME you can chat, people will.
If drinking in the tavern for 10 minutes gives you buffs for an hour, people will gladly do that before they go questing or mob grinding, and chat while they do it.
If drinking in the tavern does nothing, they won't do it becuase they COULD be grinding xp or completing quests, crafting, etc.
It's "opportunity costs".
I have 4 hours to play the game. So I have to choose my activities, and if I do one thing, I am giving up another.
If I choose to chat, I am giving up XP. If I XP I am giving up chat.
But if I can chat, and that doesn't cost me XP or gives me some other in game advantage I want anyway, there's no opportunity cost. In that case, chatting is "free".
If a game forced me to sit in a tavern for 10 minutes and do nothing I would just as likely alt-tab to check my emails, post on a forums or watch a video on Youtube. Doing so during a forced downtime in the game frees up more time to play the game.
I am more likely to chat whan I am active in the game and opportunity cost of doing out-of-game activities is way higher.
Ihmotepp nailed the core of the socializing issue. Even the stalwart battle-worn veterans who proudly bear the scars of Ye Olde Grynde Systeme are not going to log in to socialize if it gets in the way of their XPz and epics. They are guilty of the same crime/sin/flaw/[insertnegativetermhere]/etc that they accuse all those newcomer whippersnappers of. That is why they want to impose downtime on others - to force others to have to talk to them.
I had too much fun writing that. Take it with a grain of salt.
Er, no, seriously, I don't care that much about my experience (it just ends up taking me to end game forcing me to re-roll an alt) or getting epics (I hate gear grinding and chasing the next drop, I much prefer a world where crafteed items are king).
And actually, I just want to have fun while playing my MMORPG's, not racing through them in an every upward spriral of character progression.
Sure, there always has to be some sort of progression or the game gets boring (my issue with GW1 btw) however games such as DAOC (back in the day, not now) and EVE (really does it right IMO) allow for progression trees that just don't seem like such grinds nor is your progress utterly wiped away by the next expansion. (well, until some dumb arse decided we needed raiding/artifact grinding in DAOC, curse you TOA)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I actually stopped playing Eve, telling myself I don't have time for it anymore. Sure I could log in and change skills, do some trading, run some plex's or get my stealth bomber blown up for the 100th time, but I just couldn't get the type of exeperience I wanted anymore. I was spending too much time in the game, and I had to step away for a while. BUT that was just me and what I wanted, you can definitely play Eve casually.
But when you ad activities where you are accomplishing something, and AT THE SAME TIME you can chat, people will.
If drinking in the tavern for 10 minutes gives you buffs for an hour, people will gladly do that before they go questing or mob grinding, and chat while they do it.
If drinking in the tavern does nothing, they won't do it becuase they COULD be grinding xp or completing quests, crafting, etc.
It's "opportunity costs".
I have 4 hours to play the game. So I have to choose my activities, and if I do one thing, I am giving up another.
If I choose to chat, I am giving up XP. If I XP I am giving up chat.
But if I can chat, and that doesn't cost me XP or gives me some other in game advantage I want anyway, there's no opportunity cost. In that case, chatting is "free".
If a game forced me to sit in a tavern for 10 minutes and do nothing I would just as likely alt-tab to check my emails, post on a forums or watch a video on Youtube. Doing so during a forced downtime in the game frees up more time to play the game.
I am more likely to chat whan I am active in the game and opportunity cost of doing out-of-game activities is way higher.
Ihmotepp nailed the core of the socializing issue. Even the stalwart battle-worn veterans who proudly bear the scars of Ye Olde Grynde Systeme are not going to log in to socialize if it gets in the way of their XPz and epics. They are guilty of the same crime/sin/flaw/[insertnegativetermhere]/etc that they accuse all those newcomer whippersnappers of. That is why they want to impose downtime on others - to force others to have to talk to them.
I had too much fun writing that. Take it with a grain of salt.
One of the consequences of playing my early 'old school' MMORPGs is that I really do not care much about XP, I like to level and get new abilities but I could care less how much XP I get. As a matter of fact getting too much XP often means that I outlevel the content and lose the challenge. So when people obsess about their XP rate I tend to look at them funny and think that they kinda miss the point of playing a MMORPG. Raiding in vanilla WoW pretty much cured me of the gear obsession people seem to have. I still like getting new gear and optimizing my stats but I would much rather do the content right than get an epic.
The biggest part of any type of socialization is getting other people to want to socialize with you. And let's face it some of the stuff people want to talk about is quite dumb.
We've all seen it, the phrase "I don't have enough time" used to justify why players demand game mechanics so prevalent in most modern MMORPG's.
Don't have enough time to find a group? Design content so most of it can be solo'd in small spurts, effecively killing grouping. For good measure toss in a cross realm dungeon finder to really save time and drive another nail in the coffin of player socialization.
Not enough time to travel to destinations? Put lots of instant travel options into games so players don't get a chance to socialize while moving from A to B.
Not enough time to level up a character? Though a complaint not often seen these days, it was used heavily in the past by players who would pay other folks to level up their characters for them. Same with gold buying as well, not enough time to earn the gold myself, so I went out and paid someone else who was willing to do it for me.
Rich, detailed crafting systems? Who in the world has time for that? Make the best gear come from drops, preferably from those instant queued dungeons we designed for players without enough time to play the game.
Engaging open world PVP content? Well that has to go, who has time to run around a vast wilderness looking for fair and balanced fights, much better if we let them queue up for cross realm pvp instanced matches to make sure their vaulable time isn't wasted.
Sigh, I could go on but why bother? It's pretty obvious that developers have sacrificed much of what actually gave MMORPG's their heart and soul in order to appeal to the "causal player" with everything from quest givers and large icons above their heads to arrows that direct the player right to their destination.
Socialization mechanics such as forced downtime, strong group encouragement and the like have all given way to make MMORPG's quick and easy games for people to "enjoy" but at the same time they've lost so much of the magic I used to enjoy.
BTW, I've a 50+ year old player who's held a full time job, raised a family all during the time I've played MMORPG's. I never was one of those folks who could claim that I had more time in my younger days and now don't have the time to play them anymore. Few people have had less time than I to enjoy MMORPG's really, so that arguement carries no real weight for me.
Yeah, I know, I'm a dinosaur and need to learn that the MMORPG world has moved on without me but still I hope in time players in the 2nd generation of MMORPG's will one day reconsider and take the time to really enjoy these virtual worlds and not just play them like a quick-hit "game"
Absolutely beautifully stated, Kyleran.
I agree 100%.
I'm 37, have a full-time job and plenty of responsibility outside of work as well that leaves me with only an hour or two here and there to play at times. I still prefer MMOs the way they used to be, when they had the heart and soul you speak of. When they were massive expansive worlds your character lived and developed in, not merely "games" you played through.
Again... well said.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
The facebook generation is turning mmo´s into arcade games with a rpgish interface.
Nonsense. MMO's have simply matured from being a "Wow this is new" niche market into a "Hey these things can make money!" business, just like almost everything eventually does.
I honestly don't think you'd go far wrong looking at MMO's, their dev's, investors and players, as a microcsom of economic humanity as a whole. If it works, copy it. If it makes money, copy it. If people keep buying it, keep making it.
Sure, we can all bleat about how nice it would be to have rich, immersive and detailed worlds (and I'm in the group that would prefer that), but at the end of the day, that dog is never gonna hunt when stacked up against the lure of making money, which is what all these game developers want to do.
Do any of you think that if they could make an "old school" or "hardcore" game that would make obscene amounts of money, that there wouldn't be dozens of them by now?
Sadly, we can piss and moan all we like about "the way things used to be", and it'll make zero difference. I'm sure all of our fathers and grandfathers lament the way things used to be, but life isn't going to go back that way, and wishing it would is just a waste of our time, in fact it's probably detrimental to progress.
Honestly, if we don't like the way MMO's are going that much, maybe we should stop flogging a dead horse bitching about it and do something else instead? And really, if we've got the time, money and inclination to bitch about computer games, we're really not that bad off are we?
Maybe some are just not meant to have time for mmos. The only real lengthy gaming time I get is when everyone is a sleep and I have no work the next day these days. Real life responsibilities take away gaming time and that is how it should be. MMO devs can't cater to everyone all the time.
One major issue as I see it is that people who really don't have the time to invest into a MMO (or any time-intensive activity) refuse to acknowledge that, refuse to acknowledge that their perceived "lack of time" really is their problem.... not the developers'.
It would seem sensible to say "well, I like the look of this game, but given the time I have to play games and the rate at which I like to make progress, I don't think it would really suit me".
But that's not what so many do, is it?
No.
When faced with that predicament, many people will instead say "WTF? I want to play this game, but the stupid clueless devs obviously have no idea what they're doing because it's impossible for me to play it with my schedule! I'd never get anywhere! I'd forever be behind everyone else who has more time than me, which is completely unfair! Why should I be punished for having a busier schedule and less time to play!"
A disturbingly high number of people - and getting higher - seem to feel that simply by virtue of having chosen to play the game, they are entitled to have the game exactly the way they want it. If not, well, then it's obviously the fault of clueless devs who don't understand what the players want.
Welcome to the "Me, Me, Me" world we live in.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I actually don't see that very often WSIMike. What I see more often is that the person that doesn't have time simply doesn't play the game, they play the games they do have time for, then the devs either see their populations drop, or decide to go after that market as well and the game is changed to accommodate them. Then everyone else gets on the forums and cries about how casuals are destroying the market, when the casuals just play the game they want to, and the industry itself decides to go after them.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Um...when did "fair" or "balanced" ever happen? World PVP by definition is 99.9% one-sided (and thus uninteresting) slaughters. That's sort of the point. That's what those players want. The time involved searching out opponents was just one more negative heaped on a stack of reasons why world PVP sucks.
I dont get this at all. World pvp is thrilling. That is, if you know what you're doing and actually like pvp. If its the kind of game where high levels run around camping lowbies then ofc its uninteresting and not fun.
But the feeling of roaming around in a party not knowing the numbers or strength of your next encounter, thats a huge thrill for me. Laying an ambush with a small party knowing a huge number of warbands will be passing by any minute.... awesome. If you cant take a couple of deaths no matter the odds, then ye maybe wow arena e-sport style is for you. Or something else I dunno This is just for me ofc and my own opinions and feelings about it, but usually when I talk to PvPers world pvp is by far what they prefer. PvEers, not so much
(and thats fine too I guess lol no need for flames!)
In other games, the combat itself is exciting. In world PVP, only the apprehension of not knowing is exciting -- and once you realize everything is one-sided based on a very simplistic mechanic (bring more friends) you sort of get over your world PVP phase.
Sorry, but that's a huge over-generalization and will not fly.
My time in L2 alone, ~4 years, saw all manner of PvP... equal matches, uneven matches that evened out as more arrived... small-scale that grew into large scale, short skirmishes that were over in minutes, longer battles that lasted hours. I've seen the outnumbered win through skill alone... and on and on and on. I've seen the same in my time in Shadowbane, my short time in DF, even in AC1. There was a variety of encounters, of all scales, balances and turn-outs.
You're taking a specific scenario that can occur in a PvP setting and attempting to paint it as though it's all there is.
If that's what your PvP experience has been like... well.. that's unfortunate.
It has most certainly not been mine.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actually an example of how developers do change things to make them more accessible to people with less time is LotRO.When that game launched I played it .It was nowhere easy to get by without all those group quests and the book quests that now they have changed so many things. The experience you got just by grinding mobs was very bad in comparison to completing quests so they upped it. You know why it is right , not that people whine and ask for it to change but because they leave the game. Then developers cave in and change things. So who do you blame for that ?
You say people should recognize that they do not have the time to devote which they do and promptly leave the game but then game companies realising why the people are leaving change the mechanics.
It is all good and fine to say that this situation is the result of people whining on the boards before they leave or that developers being greedy to want to keep those players but if everything is alright and a company can live with people leaving their game and having less players then those mechanics can stay can't they ?
But it still leaves you up to make at least the attempt to converse and interact with the others. HOWEVER I COMPLETELY AGREE with the Instancing. I was in Final Fantasy XI where there was no instancing you'd have literally a lot of people in a zone fighting. If someone ran into a situation they'd call for help and everyone after a fight (if they were in one) would turn around and help that person. And I do miss those days of non instancing hell it's where I met some of my best friends, BUT I have also made friends with people from across realms where I've made characters on their realms and vice versa. It's really just about how social you want to be with people you believe "you will never meet again.
And in that statement, you have touched on just a *glimpse* of what us so-called "old-timers" are referring to when we talk about community.
It's not so cut and dry as "well, you can still talk to people in pick-up groups", as some seem to insist on portraying it.
It's not that one-dimensional, at all. Not even close.
It's like someone recommending you get a decent telescope if you want to get into astronomy, and them saying "Why do I need a telescope? I can just look up in the sky and see plenty of stars". One experience is just a shadow of the other.
You really had to have experienced and been part of a real community in a MMORPG to know what it's like. That's not "arrogance" and it's not "rose-colored glasses". It's just the way it is. It's not something you can "describe". It's something you have to experience.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
At the end of the day those of us who like the old mechanics are not enough. We do not represent a significant number. That is why games like Everquest may never see the light of day again. Perhaps we should indeed go back and support the games we loved. Like Everquest,UO ,DAoC ,AO ,FFXI and AC.
When companies see their playerbase dwindling from mechanics the present player sees as not within their time frame the companies cave in. That is it.
But those cases of drive-by random or just in time needed help still happen. Not in the instance but it still happens in the world, even in WoW. I have been helped and helped many others many many times. I don't even think they are rarer, I see that happen a lot.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I'm confused by this one, if your not looking to socialize in an MMO, why exactly are you playing an MMO then? Because your friends are playing it and its the new cool thing to do? Putin it on your resume on facebook so you feel like your more in crowd? Really, whats the point if you have no desire to socizlize in an MMORPG? Why bother wasting the time and money when you could be out at the pub as you say.
Heheh... I was thinking along the same lines when I read their response.
Without even realizing it, they're defining one of the key reasons why MMOs have lost their communities.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Venge is right I played vanilla WoW and people helped all the time they buffed and helped you and I myself helped so many people as a priest in WoW so that was still there even in a game like WoW.
But those cases of drive-by random or just in time needed help still happen. Not in the instance but it still happens in the world, even in WoW. I have been helped and helped many others many many times. I don't even think they are rarer, I see that happen a lot.
Venge
Not quite in the same way.
More times than not, if I'm fighting a tough mob in a game like WoW and having my ass handed to me, people nearby will simply continue what they're doing, or actually watch me get killed.
I've had people come up and kill the mob I was fighting... after it killed me.
I've had people come up, laugh at me and start dancing on my dead body.
There are still the occasional cool people in these games, for sure... By far, though, in my experience, most of them are more interested in being anti-social douchebags.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
The thing is I don't understand why PVP shouldn't be balanced. Even in the most lackluster MMO's PVP needs to be balanced and even in these lackluster MMOs (Unless the design is very poor) the small group can still beat and repel the "zerg" and a lot of games offer the tactical stuff however most MMORPGs overlook the strategic because lets be real not everyone can be an armchair Patton, so most people do just hit buttons, but most systems still reward those that can think for themselves. What gets to be a problem is when 30 people jump on a group that is doing something and they win just cause of numbers. I ran into A LOT of this in Warcraft. You know 500 people go raid my city when the population would be sleeping and such.
What is your definition of "downtime" maybe I'm unclear of what you mean by downtime. As for traveling the only socialising you will get is with your guild and friends. However think of it in this respect as well. People would be less likely to help lower level people if they had to spend 20 minutes just getting to a certain place. Then bring into the solo player you mentioned who are just looking for a game. There will come a time in any and every MMO that is out there where they will be forced into a group situation because they have progressed as far as they can and are at a brick wall. This person will be forced to find some people with a like mind: ie joining a guild and such. While at first yes they will be there only to use these people as a means to an end but 99% of these people will end up forming bonds/friendships with these people. Thus his "game" becomes his "world" you found your world earlier in the game than this person did but it did not make your trip any better or the start of his journey any less significant.
There are games with fun mechanics but then there are mechanics to things that just plain are bad design. One that pops into my mind is a Heroic Dungeon in Warcraft that you were basically one shotted by a boss if it hit you. Now take into consideration if you lagged out or stuttered for a second you were screwed and it's not any fault of your own it's your internet connection and or the server. The mechancis in Final Fantasy XI I loved yet I HATED it at the same time. You were always in a group (No dungeons to run you leveled in the open world) and you had to time when you used what weapon skills and the next person would go with their weapon skill and it would create a skill chain and than the mages had 5 seconds to nuke to get bonus damage. While I loved all of that the downfall was I had to have 5 other people hold my hand while doing the most boring tasks. There is taking more time to get to the "end" and then there is just unecessary fillers. Hell in Final Fantasy XI it wasn't uncommon to get into groups for anywhere above 4 hours just to "grind" the exp. If you didn't get into these groups it take you AGES to level, I would know it took my wife 3 or 4 years to hit the cap.
The reason people jump MMO's well some people is there is no real tie down to your characters anymore. I've quit WoW before sold my account but I've came back and didn't care I didn't have my old character. Why? Because everytime I wanted to do another job I had to switch to a whole nother character and level it up. Where is the sense of pride in your character if you're not needed you have to completly swap that character out? While I liked WoW's approach to allowing various talent trees it and every other MMO is still the same in the end EXCEPT Final Fantasy XI and I'm sure a few others out there. They will allow you to completely switch your job from say Warrior to White mage therefor you dont have to switch characters so you can form more of a bond if that's what you want to call it with your character there's no incentive to keep playing a toon rather than to keep upgrading that 1 set of armor or 2 sets and move on. Also the moving on part can be attributed to all the games feeling like "Been there done that" and a basis of everyone having a closed mind of actually going into another genre of MMO so they wander around aimlessly trying to find what does it for them, and what sparked that fire for them in the first game they played or the first few months of a game they played just to find out they miss the original game, it's a vicious cycle.
As for a developer coming along and trying to build a game that can not copy something and branch out from the same old tried and true method the problem isn't within the developers themselves it's in the investors, publishers, CEO's, ect. basically people who have no idea or clue about what people want from MMORPGs and such not to mention they are all run like any other corporation: More Revenue less actual money spent on development. You can build an IP from the ground up full of lore that takes years, you think the suits that just dumped 500,000.00 into production want to wait for an investment return, or even the publisher that picks up these games, no they want more of a quick return on their investment so they start dabbling with the developmental process to poke and prod it along faster and make it become more and more like the juggernaut that will return investments.
There are already MMOs out there trying to change the formula but they don't get the attention others do. I will put in Final Fantasy XIV which changes the way you level completly but because of wrong implementation and things of that nature it marred the game for now. Right now they are losing revenue keeping servers up ect, hopefully the game will become profitable at one point but do you think the investors, publisher, developer will try to branch out again? No because they've lost money and now they are like jilted lovers.
And for some people they really do not have the time regardless of how you try to compare time to them. Whlie you find value in say spending 15 hours online killing stuff they might only have 5 hours due to other obligations family school work whatever the case may be. They want to see the content and do what you do but they want to move at the same speed you do just because someone has more time to offer on a game than someone else does not make them better players or that they have ADD ADHD or whatever. They log on to escape into the world just as you do but for shorter bursts why should they feel any less important to that world than you?
People have enough time, half of the people coming out of college won't find a job in the first year.
It's just that children are suffering from ADD. They want ACTION ACTION ACTION ACTION,.
The 'speed' thing is relative. I could be doing something for hours and if it is engaging and challenging it only feels like a few minutes have passed. Doing a grindy activity for fifteen mnutes can feel like an eternity.
As far as the gear vs heroism issue I always shudder at the delusional people who think that having the best gear makes them 'heroic' or even 'good players'. It is obscenely superficial. Gear should be fairly easy to obtain and the measure of a player should be determined by what they do and not what gear they grinded for.
I agree with this 100%.
People often use the argument, well, if you want to chat, you can just do that.
But people will not, because tehy do feel they are "losing game time".
Hell, they can chat anywhere online, why do it in an MMORPG if I COULD be making xp or crafting?
But when you ad activities where you are accomplishing something, and AT THE SAME TIME you can chat, people will.
If drinking in the tavern for 10 minutes gives you buffs for an hour, people will gladly do that before they go questing or mob grinding, and chat while they do it.
If drinking in the tavern does nothing, they won't do it becuase they COULD be grinding xp or completing quests, crafting, etc.
It's "opportunity costs".
I have 4 hours to play the game. So I have to choose my activities, and if I do one thing, I am giving up another.
If I choose to chat, I am giving up XP. If I XP I am giving up chat.
But if I can chat, and that doesn't cost me XP or gives me some other in game advantage I want anyway, there's no opportunity cost. In that case, chatting is "free".
Except that people are chatting in these modern MMO's. All the time. Sometimes runs are quiet, sometimes they were quiet in EQ too.
I have no touble talking with people when gaming.
Venge
I don't think anyone is claiming that you can't chat in any MMO.
But I do think chatting for free is more relaxed, than when it comes with an opportunity cost.
If a game forced me to sit in a tavern for 10 minutes and do nothing I would just as likely alt-tab to check my emails, post on a forums or watch a video on Youtube. Doing so during a forced downtime in the game frees up more time to play the game.
I am more likely to chat whan I am active in the game and opportunity cost of doing out-of-game activities is way higher.
Come to think of it the crafting channel in both Vanguard and Everquest 2 used to be a great place to chat. We were trapped sort of crafting so chatting was just natural.
Ihmotepp nailed the core of the socializing issue. Even the stalwart battle-worn veterans who proudly bear the scars of Ye Olde Grynde Systeme are not going to log in to socialize if it gets in the way of their XPz and epics. They are guilty of the same crime/sin/flaw/[insertnegativetermhere]/etc that they accuse all those newcomer whippersnappers of. That is why they want to impose downtime on others - to force others to have to talk to them.
I had too much fun writing that. Take it with a grain of salt.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm not suggesting that they are less important, but at some point Dev's have include design features that appeal to their target market's time availablity. Obviously the time crunch bunch is one of the larger demographics and almost every game chases after it. (understandably). But in the mean time MMORPG's really have lost their soul and its a shame really, and although I have to accept it, I don't have to like it, and I certainly can share my thoughts on it at sites like MMORPG.com
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Er, no, seriously, I don't care that much about my experience (it just ends up taking me to end game forcing me to re-roll an alt) or getting epics (I hate gear grinding and chasing the next drop, I much prefer a world where crafteed items are king).
And actually, I just want to have fun while playing my MMORPG's, not racing through them in an every upward spriral of character progression.
Sure, there always has to be some sort of progression or the game gets boring (my issue with GW1 btw) however games such as DAOC (back in the day, not now) and EVE (really does it right IMO) allow for progression trees that just don't seem like such grinds nor is your progress utterly wiped away by the next expansion. (well, until some dumb arse decided we needed raiding/artifact grinding in DAOC, curse you TOA)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I actually stopped playing Eve, telling myself I don't have time for it anymore. Sure I could log in and change skills, do some trading, run some plex's or get my stealth bomber blown up for the 100th time, but I just couldn't get the type of exeperience I wanted anymore. I was spending too much time in the game, and I had to step away for a while. BUT that was just me and what I wanted, you can definitely play Eve casually.
One of the consequences of playing my early 'old school' MMORPGs is that I really do not care much about XP, I like to level and get new abilities but I could care less how much XP I get. As a matter of fact getting too much XP often means that I outlevel the content and lose the challenge. So when people obsess about their XP rate I tend to look at them funny and think that they kinda miss the point of playing a MMORPG. Raiding in vanilla WoW pretty much cured me of the gear obsession people seem to have. I still like getting new gear and optimizing my stats but I would much rather do the content right than get an epic.
The biggest part of any type of socialization is getting other people to want to socialize with you. And let's face it some of the stuff people want to talk about is quite dumb.
Absolutely beautifully stated, Kyleran.
I agree 100%.
I'm 37, have a full-time job and plenty of responsibility outside of work as well that leaves me with only an hour or two here and there to play at times. I still prefer MMOs the way they used to be, when they had the heart and soul you speak of. When they were massive expansive worlds your character lived and developed in, not merely "games" you played through.
Again... well said.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Nonsense. MMO's have simply matured from being a "Wow this is new" niche market into a "Hey these things can make money!" business, just like almost everything eventually does.
I honestly don't think you'd go far wrong looking at MMO's, their dev's, investors and players, as a microcsom of economic humanity as a whole. If it works, copy it. If it makes money, copy it. If people keep buying it, keep making it.
Sure, we can all bleat about how nice it would be to have rich, immersive and detailed worlds (and I'm in the group that would prefer that), but at the end of the day, that dog is never gonna hunt when stacked up against the lure of making money, which is what all these game developers want to do.
Do any of you think that if they could make an "old school" or "hardcore" game that would make obscene amounts of money, that there wouldn't be dozens of them by now?
Sadly, we can piss and moan all we like about "the way things used to be", and it'll make zero difference. I'm sure all of our fathers and grandfathers lament the way things used to be, but life isn't going to go back that way, and wishing it would is just a waste of our time, in fact it's probably detrimental to progress.
Honestly, if we don't like the way MMO's are going that much, maybe we should stop flogging a dead horse bitching about it and do something else instead? And really, if we've got the time, money and inclination to bitch about computer games, we're really not that bad off are we?
One major issue as I see it is that people who really don't have the time to invest into a MMO (or any time-intensive activity) refuse to acknowledge that, refuse to acknowledge that their perceived "lack of time" really is their problem.... not the developers'.
It would seem sensible to say "well, I like the look of this game, but given the time I have to play games and the rate at which I like to make progress, I don't think it would really suit me".
But that's not what so many do, is it?
No.
When faced with that predicament, many people will instead say "WTF? I want to play this game, but the stupid clueless devs obviously have no idea what they're doing because it's impossible for me to play it with my schedule! I'd never get anywhere! I'd forever be behind everyone else who has more time than me, which is completely unfair! Why should I be punished for having a busier schedule and less time to play!"
A disturbingly high number of people - and getting higher - seem to feel that simply by virtue of having chosen to play the game, they are entitled to have the game exactly the way they want it. If not, well, then it's obviously the fault of clueless devs who don't understand what the players want.
Welcome to the "Me, Me, Me" world we live in.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I actually don't see that very often WSIMike. What I see more often is that the person that doesn't have time simply doesn't play the game, they play the games they do have time for, then the devs either see their populations drop, or decide to go after that market as well and the game is changed to accommodate them. Then everyone else gets on the forums and cries about how casuals are destroying the market, when the casuals just play the game they want to, and the industry itself decides to go after them.
Venge
Sorry, but that's a huge over-generalization and will not fly.
My time in L2 alone, ~4 years, saw all manner of PvP... equal matches, uneven matches that evened out as more arrived... small-scale that grew into large scale, short skirmishes that were over in minutes, longer battles that lasted hours. I've seen the outnumbered win through skill alone... and on and on and on. I've seen the same in my time in Shadowbane, my short time in DF, even in AC1. There was a variety of encounters, of all scales, balances and turn-outs.
You're taking a specific scenario that can occur in a PvP setting and attempting to paint it as though it's all there is.
If that's what your PvP experience has been like... well.. that's unfortunate.
It has most certainly not been mine.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Actually an example of how developers do change things to make them more accessible to people with less time is LotRO.When that game launched I played it .It was nowhere easy to get by without all those group quests and the book quests that now they have changed so many things. The experience you got just by grinding mobs was very bad in comparison to completing quests so they upped it. You know why it is right , not that people whine and ask for it to change but because they leave the game. Then developers cave in and change things. So who do you blame for that ?
You say people should recognize that they do not have the time to devote which they do and promptly leave the game but then game companies realising why the people are leaving change the mechanics.
It is all good and fine to say that this situation is the result of people whining on the boards before they leave or that developers being greedy to want to keep those players but if everything is alright and a company can live with people leaving their game and having less players then those mechanics can stay can't they ?
And in that statement, you have touched on just a *glimpse* of what us so-called "old-timers" are referring to when we talk about community.
It's not so cut and dry as "well, you can still talk to people in pick-up groups", as some seem to insist on portraying it.
It's not that one-dimensional, at all. Not even close.
It's like someone recommending you get a decent telescope if you want to get into astronomy, and them saying "Why do I need a telescope? I can just look up in the sky and see plenty of stars". One experience is just a shadow of the other.
You really had to have experienced and been part of a real community in a MMORPG to know what it's like. That's not "arrogance" and it's not "rose-colored glasses". It's just the way it is. It's not something you can "describe". It's something you have to experience.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
At the end of the day those of us who like the old mechanics are not enough. We do not represent a significant number. That is why games like Everquest may never see the light of day again. Perhaps we should indeed go back and support the games we loved. Like Everquest,UO ,DAoC ,AO ,FFXI and AC.
When companies see their playerbase dwindling from mechanics the present player sees as not within their time frame the companies cave in. That is it.
But those cases of drive-by random or just in time needed help still happen. Not in the instance but it still happens in the world, even in WoW. I have been helped and helped many others many many times. I don't even think they are rarer, I see that happen a lot.
Venge
Heheh... I was thinking along the same lines when I read their response.
Without even realizing it, they're defining one of the key reasons why MMOs have lost their communities.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Venge is right I played vanilla WoW and people helped all the time they buffed and helped you and I myself helped so many people as a priest in WoW so that was still there even in a game like WoW.
Not quite in the same way.
More times than not, if I'm fighting a tough mob in a game like WoW and having my ass handed to me, people nearby will simply continue what they're doing, or actually watch me get killed.
I've had people come up and kill the mob I was fighting... after it killed me.
I've had people come up, laugh at me and start dancing on my dead body.
There are still the occasional cool people in these games, for sure... By far, though, in my experience, most of them are more interested in being anti-social douchebags.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops