I know the effective range of a pistol should only be 20-30 meters (though some do go 40-50, its rare). However, if I can't hit a person at 50 paces (ok, 100 is pusing it), then whats the use of a pistol? get an SMG or Shotgun. They have better range and accuracy (a shotgun spred at 100 meters is under 1 ft wide, so if you center it at someone's chest, the whole blast will hit).
I'm saying if someone stands, aims, waits and then fires, they should be able to hit at 2-3 times the range of just aiming in the direction and firing. It would do less than maximum effective damage, but it would still hit at that range, and would still do damage.
500 meters is a good distance for rifles, as no one would have the training or time to learn to hit any further. One thing is, snipers shooting at that range and farther usually set their weapon on something, or use a bipod. This is to steady the weapon. Should we need to set the weapon up (either on a bipod or a flat surface and cushioning) to keep accuracy at that range? I think we should, but I wonder what you all think.
Also, how do you take into effect the ping of people? Those on dial-up will always be at the mercy of those on DSL/Cable who will be at the mercy of those on T1/T3. It may not be necessarily slow, but their ability to react will be slowed considerably.
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Originally posted by Cthulhuvong Yea the jumping sniper stuff is BS. If Counter-Strike was realistic, the first time someone did that, he'd be on his back with a broken shoulder. Snipers are supposed to set their weapons on something to steady it and then fire. Movement would make you're accuracy horrible.
The shot was made by a Canadian in Afghanistan at a little over a mile away, target was stationary more or less and he was using a modified Barret .50 cal. I bit off topic but what the hell..
1) Who can PvP? I think you come up with different rule sets for different servers as WoW did. You will never make everyone happy, give people a choice.
2) Where can you PvP? I think you should have contested or PVP enabled areas that are higher level areas. Each faction or clan should have an area they control and within that area PVP should be disabled. This would be the lowbie leveling area. You have to give folks a safe haven to learn the game and get going.
3) Penalties of getting killed. As the other poster said, depends on the frequency and setting. If you are out in the general world a corpse run and small XP loss for a PVP kill makes sense. If you are in a battlefield or a designated area for PVP maybe a loss of some cash or one item can be looted.
4) Penalties FOR killing. Hurt your faction standing and make NPCs aggro to you. If you are a griefer some kind of outcast label so that everyone is aggro.
5) Perks to killing (ie XP, Status/Fame, Loot Rights) Faction rank, controlling location, resources, territory for your faction. Ability to loot a small portion of someones funds that are on them (have to have a bank so people don't have to carry all their money).
6) Previous mistakes (What have other games done WRONG) I think WoW is decent, but there has to be a penalty for some of the ganking behaviour. Yes you have the possibility that low levels can grief a higher level player, but that is an exception not a rule. A level 60 in WoW should get penalized for ganking someone 20-30 levels lower. A level 60 horde should not be taking out level 25s in Darkshire, or even level 30s in STV. Getting the balance right so that low levels can't grief them back is a challenge, but I think that happens maybe 2% of the time.
7) Balance issues Seems to me balancing a game against PVE is fairly simple. But in PVP it is next to impossible. There will always be players who find an optimal mix of stats and skills that make them unbalanced. In SWG you could watch as people moved from Swordsman, to Combat Medic, to Tera Kasi.... Do the best you can and change things on the fly, that is the beauty of MMOs, you can make changes as you go. As far as realism goes, I am more of a fan of the SWG model than WoW. If there is a sword and I know how to use it, I should be able to use any sword. The level limits on gear in WoW are their for balance, but they don't make sense. However, in SWG different weapon types required certain skill levels.
1) different rules for different servers means that the devs have to make multiple rules for every addition to the game. This means more code. That means more chance of bugs in the system.
One set of rules for all servers means that all content will be using the same coding, which means the devs only have to make everything once, instead of multiple times. Easier for them, and less worry for us all.
2) The factions in games are not going to be like WoW, you don't start with a faction, and most of the controlled areas will not be controlled by a faction, or only 1 faction. Some towns may be completely neutral, with no factions in it. Others may have multiple factions in 1 town. The factions will be somewhat important, but the game does not revolve around them.
Also, this is going to be a First-Person Shooter (FPS). That means that you won't have combat levels. Anyone could potentially start right up and go take on the toughest people if they're a good enough shot. I believe that rather than have a no-PVP zone, starting areas and the towns around them should have heavy police patrol, which would attack anyone immediately if they attacked someone else. These should be tough NPCs, but not impossible to kill.
And also, this is the post apocalyptic world, its dangerous out there. You should have to be wery of anyone you meet. You play cards with some people you should always have a hand on your gun. Anyone should be able to attack anyone else. Otherwise its not really a danger to be around others. Some people will just kill you outright, thats how it is. Some people will protect you, thats how it is.
3) Penalties I go back and forth with. Sometimes I believe that you should just drop everything you're carrying if you die. This is not only realistic, its a reward for PvP. But the bad part is that it also rewards ganking, which we don't want. However, if you don't get to loot from someone else, then theres no reason to fight at all, which takes away from realism. Raiders should be able to be raiders, against both NPCs and PCs.
You will die out there, that is asured. The only thing frequency should depend on is you ability with a weapon and your ability to survive in the world, which includes not getting into combat. Again, this is an FPS game, so the only XP you can lose would be from crafting and and other non-combat stuff, which really doesn't make sense.
The company said they wanted this "zoneless" which means most likely there won't be PvP zones. Basically, loot needs to be put on the "Realism vs. Fun" scale. People who would whine and bitch for losing all their items in combat would know the risks ahead of time (would be talked about in the Manual and the Tutorial). Also, these people would still act the same way if they lost only 1 item and some cash. They would also act the same way if they just lost some XP.
4) again, faction is not that important. However you do have a point. If you kill someone who is in high standing with a faction, then you should lose standing with them. NPCs of that faction my indeed aggro you for a short time, unless you are at a higher standing. If you are in a higher standing than the other guy (2-3 times as high lets say), then there will be little affect (small drop in standing, no NPC action). Maybe NPCs in the area will scream "Murderer!" or something similar.
5) faction rank would be good, maybe location, resorce or territory control (see below). Again, loot is a touchy subject, as you have whiners whenever they lose anything.
6) With it being a shooter, newbie players acctually have a chance. They may not have equpment equal to a veteran, but if they're good enough they should be able to beat him easy. Since there are no levels, you'll have to check out what your opponent looks like to see if they're acctually a vet or not (someone talked about this a few pages back). Vets trying to gank newbies will have to deal with NPC polices as well as the newbies of skill.
7) With the Combat Upgrade, only certain high leveled weapons need you to be at certain skill levels anymore. As a base player, you can use most weapons without the need of a certain skill level. You can use most pistols, with only certain ones needing higher levels (flame pistol or launcher pistol being two that need comando ranks).
As for this game, with it being FPS based, you can basically pick up any weapons and shoot/swing it. That doesn't mean you should be able to take care of it when not in combat, but you can still shoot it when in combat (until it breaks).
Now I hope that seeing that its a shooter based combat hasn't scared you away (as it did with someone else).
I have an idea that came to me when I was commenting to your Perks for Killing section. If you defeat someone in combat, that shouldn't mean they are dead right out. They should fall to the ground, unable to continue in combat. At this point they can still talk, but can't get up or take any actions. If you want, you can have them give up ceratain things (items, territory, buildings, etc) instead of being killed. You help them up, they give you stuff.
I'm going to quote a post by Derida that I think goes over everything pretty well.
As I have mentioned before - we need balance.Consensual PvP? No such thing. "Uhm.. Hullo there - could you please stand still while I shoot you?" Not going to work its silly.Arenas/Separate Servers/Zones - Not a good idea, will ruin the immersion, and as many peeps pointed out, will create content problems.100% PvP No holds barred kill-frag-fest: perhaps not either. Will ruin the game purpose "to rebuild earth.. blah,,, blah... blah". And will allow 12 year olds with too much time on their hands to grief others.So? What do we have?PvP should be allowed on the server - and it has to be single server. Those who wish not to engage should have an opportunity to have their protection within Enclaves, Cities, and Outposts etc.Those who wish to engage in PvP should work for it. They have to actually spend allot of time seeking hostile encounter - unless they meet like-minded individual/s who are seeking the same.Traders/Builders/Explorers Non-PvP personnel/Non Military Personal have to be a rare treat for a determined killer. After all, in post apocalyptic world those who are trying to hide will probably have better chances of not being seen then those who stomp about with their heavy gear and big guns.Unless, you are a real determined killer who would stalk his prey over many kilometres and stay behind - or lay low in some ruined building just waiting to pop that unsuspecting traveller - you do not deserve to be called a bandit.There can be no Gank-fests as there is so much of it in other games. Killing has to be done with determination, preparation and with some luck.Uncertainty should be a huge factor. Because you should never know whom you might encounter. Unless, you have done your homework, and know 100% that so and so will be travelling there and then at that time.The Carebears - and I know it will start a huge holler - should have the advantage of running away. Because they are, after all more equipped for hiding/peaceful co-existence. Killers should work to get their meat. No other way around it. I think so many people are leaning toward the PVP because it is easy. [I am going by my EVE experience] - when it should be hard to kill someone with style and finesse. After a while its pretty sick to see so many people killing off everything that moves - w/o even getting thrill of the hunt or conquest!Just my two pigtails, again, on the matter.
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I have an idea that came to me when I was commenting to your Perks for Killing section. If you defeat someone in combat, that shouldn't mean they are dead right out. They should fall to the ground, unable to continue in combat. At this point they can still talk, but can't get up or take any actions. If you want, you can have them give up ceratain things (items, territory, buildings, etc) instead of being killed. You help them up, they give you stuff.
That actually sounds really really good. Of course there would have to be a time limit for being knocked out. I'd say a good minute in a half two minutes. After the time limit went out you'd bleed to death. This would be a really good way to rob people without them losing everything or to get information out of someone. The roleplaying possibilities are endless!
___________________________ The Golden Rule. Risk vs. Reward
The RP possabilities are limited only by your mind!
....and the game system
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I know we have talked about this before but I want to bring it up again. Why not just have a /command that flags you for PvP. And the only way another player can PvP you or shoot you is to flag himself. Then all you have to do is put a time limit in before you can unflag yourself.
Easy enough, people who dont want PvP are safe and if they flag themselfs, they should know what they are getting themselfs into.
Wont work, at least not for me...pretty simple reason why..
Say you found an old junkyard filled with parts for putting together vehicles, you and your clan decide to go to town disassembling things etc, when a couple of guys decide they want some of the stuff too, normally I'd say back off, and if they didnt back off I'd shoot. Obviously if they're not flagged they can just go about looting our stuff willy nilly....unless you implemented a sort of temporary territory system where you could claim that junkyard area and any one who entered that would be auto flagged, except I dont want to see that in my realistic post apoc game, I probably would play something else to be honest.
If you havent been able to tell the cookie cutter BS solutions really dont work that well in my mind, and if I my make an ass out of you and me, I dont think Icarus wants cookie cutter stuff in their game either (pronounced ither because I feel like sounding snotty).
Lets keep it simple; two servers, the only problem I can see is dynamic content and icarus having twice the amount to keep their eyes on if the servers diverge differently due to player choices, but I think that would be best.
Two servers is not a solution in my mind. Its the most STUPID idea to use. You end up splitting the community into two groups which is not something you really should do with this kinda game. Easiet way now in my mind is to make the entire place PvP and just deal witht he greifers and gankers....
I hear ya. I think people who are fed up with the ultra-carebear games of today will try this game out. Plus a break from swords and magic is allways nice.
___________________________ The Golden Rule. Risk vs. Reward
Originally posted by Radzik I hear ya. I think people who are fed up with the ultra-carebear games of today will try this game out. Plus a break from swords and magic is allways nice.
Couldnt agree more about the Swords and Magik crap... yak.... /me Vomits.
I cant bloody wait... my Alienware is coming this Wednsday.... [Thanx to Playing EVE Online, he he he] I want this game out now!!!!!!
Patience, its better to wait and get a good game than rush and get nothing.
Waiting For: something good Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
FALLEN EARTH doesnt allow Player vs Player combat outside of certain missions or areas. Accessing those special missions or areas will be your decision -- getting killed is your option, killing players who havent agreed to the special conditions isnt.
See, this is why I never read the FAQs, always find something bad in there....
PvP could still be done. Just have a weapons check at the entrance of every town/settled area so that you have to give up your weapons. I still think the wilderness should be open PvP, not only in "certain missions or areas". How can it be zoneless if there are only certain zones you can PvP in?
ZONELESS?
You better believe it! No long load-delays moving from area to area, no getting a snack from the kitchen while the world catches up with your actions. (On the other hand, that thing with the big teeth and the long claws thats chasing you wont be restricted or slowed down by boundaries either!)
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I think they mean zoneless in the sense of never having to be load another area IE: zoning from lets say Rome Blue to Rome Red, (Anarchy Online) ie: zone walls. They are going for you being able to drivce anywhere w/o hitting a zone wall. But they can easily make zones ie: player cities where you dont have to wait for a load time.
The thing about AO is that it even has zones that dont require you to load. Like the PC cities, the second you walk into the zone you are flagged automatically for PvP and theres a short wait until you can fight. The Gods could be easily implement that into FE. Didn't they mention that certain areas are PvP enabled? That would be the easiest for PvP I think. half and half or half of the world PvE and the oher half PvP. Then you wouldn't have to seperate servers for PvP and PvE players.
Being the hardcore Roleplayer I am, PvP is something I do when a break is needed, rather than a full time occupation. Coming from SWG, I've had countless instances of when a very fun RP event has been ruined by a group of 12 year old gankers.
Building on several previous ideas:
-NPC/PC guards: Have both available, since there's not always going to be a PC around for a NPvPer (Non PvPer, rather than the demeaning term of "carebear" ) to hire out. Naturally, PCs have the ability to be either cheaper than NPC guards, or have a higher level of skill.
Problems: What if the player decides to stab you in the back halfway into the desert? How do you make sure that the defending party gets paid? How do you advertise or find this service without spamming?
Solutions: Job board. These could be noticeable sized (but not too big) posters around a town advertising protection. It would list the name, price, and whether it was an NPC or PC. Those hiring themselves out would simply register their price on this board. Their name would remain on it until they either got accepted, left the town, went offline, or withdrew their offer. Those hiring others would just check one of these posters to see what was available and in the price range. Way I see it, there should be a central office/booth/table that people hire at. After this is several posters around town listing those that have signed up, and where the office/booth is. Bigger towns could have NPCs at the booth, while smaller ones would just have a chalkboard or something.
Payment would be dropped from the employer's bank or wallet upon accepting, and given to the guard when they are finished. If the contract is canceled before leaving town, the employer gets a refund. Anything after this, the guard gets payed. There's a whole lot of problems with this one too, but no system is perfect.
EDIT: Forgot to include the solution for "what if they backstab you?" Well, since its a contract set up through the job board, the game could make it so that the guard and employer cannot harm each other. Again, up for debate.
Next: Radii of non PvP around towns, cities, outposts, etc. I fully agree with this idea, the exact distance is up for debate. I think between 1 and 3Km from the city center, depending on its population, size, etc. Player-made cities should also emit a radius, though tiny camps would have a much smaller radius than, say, an NPC outpost. They should also be destructable, but only when 50% or more (Percentage up for debate) of the population is online. This prevents a single or group of raiders from obliberating a town when its owners were sleeping IRL, then waking up and finding everything gone. Though we might support this for realism.
I'd go farther, but fingers are worn out and energy getting low...more later
Originally posted by Delgado I like your ideas, so it's time for you to add another 2 cents in.
Alright Delgado, since I've been requested...
Lets cover the whole PvP consent issue from my random idea viewpoint.
First off, lets outline some Generally Accepted Principals about FE and the whole post-apocalyptic world with relation to player combat.
1) Players in cities will be safe from other players and creatures.
2) Players near cities will be in a relative "Safe zone"
3) Players farther away from cities, but close to main roads, will have few animal problems but potential NPC raider problems.
4) Players far away from cities (More than 1.5Km or so) will have less chances of getting jumped by raiders, but a high chance of encountering large and hostile creatures.
5) Cities have laws and law enforcement.
6) Common roads and paths will also have patrols, probably by enforcers or whatever the local faction is, to protect travelers. As well, patrols might run only once daily, so the only threat really neutralized is permanent camps.
7) Back roads or those not commonly used will probably be faster but more dangerous.
8) Out in the wilds has no law and no law enforcement. That means no patrols, plenty of chances for raider camps, and so on.
Now, here's where the problems arise:
1) Should players be allowed to PvP away from cities but close to roads, acting as raiders?
2) Should players be allowed to PvP in the completely lawless zones?
I realize the Gods up on Mount Icarus outlined their idea of PvP on the site, but its in my opinion that they set that FAQ up to satisfy the casual browser and to give us forum campers something to work with. (FE devs, correct me if I'm wrong.) Going on the above 2 problems:
1) I think Yes. Remember we're trying to balance realism with noobs and gameplay. However, noobs venturing out from one city to another are doing so for one of three reasons that come to mind. Here they are, with solutions.
a) As part of a learning quest. Solution: Issue a god-powerful NPC guard for the journey (make it very short please, as in 1Km or less to an outpost or something) Or: Make the new player invulnerable for the duration of their starter quests. New players on the quest could have a visual tag identifying them as such so that people let them pass without wasting ammo, possibly giving tips or offers. Make the quest optional, but only allow it to be canceled while in the vicinity of a city. This way, they dont accidentally turn it off in the middle of a group of raiders and get killed.
b) By request. A group of players has identified the person as a newbie and offered to take them along on a trip. They turn the aforementioned quest off and ride along. IMO, they're under the protection of the inviting group of players, who ought to be able to protect the guy/girl.
c) To explore. The noobquest and various helpers around town will all tell the new player not to venture out too far, or they risk being endangered. If they're still on the noobquest, then the PvP invulnerability thing will continue. They can still be hurt by NPCs and creatures, but suffer no item decay or loss as a result.
Regarding the noobquest (NQ for short now): There runs the risk that veteran players or even noobs with a penchant for being stupid will try to leave the quest up so that they can never be killed. Note that they cannot harm other players while the NQ is active, either. So, we have the NQ expire and turn off when one of the following conditions is met:
a) The NQ is completed.
b) A certain amount of game time has been logged and the player moves out of the city. Say, 6 hours online.
2) Yes again. Remember these zones are lawless, if a scavenger needs to protect his stash or a raider defend their camp from wandering players, then they should be free to do so, within the bounds of realism. I realize we aren't being very considerate to the NPvPers, but that's where the bounty idea comes in....
Obviously, if one player kills another out in the wastes, then the person's family is going to want revenge and place a bounty. In the world of FE, so will that person once they've been recreated at a cloning facility or whatnot. Now, we have three choices for bounty systems here:
a) Game bounty. Based on the level of skills and average worth of the goods the player had on them when they died in PvP, a set percentage of this worth (25%? Debate...) is assigned as a bounty to the player's head, paid to whomever kills them. We're gonna have to work out a system so the guy's friends dont just kill him to get paid. Some kind of factional limitation. Out of ideas there, they've got a system in EVE for it I think. Bounties have to be collected in a city, so criminals can't cash in. The bounty stays until someone cashes it in, meaning the bugger can get killed multiple times before the bounty disappears. Only one person can cash in.
b) Player bounty. The player wants revenge and assigns a bounty to the criminal's head. Bounties can only be placed on a person who has killed you in the last 72 hours (Debate...) and are optional. Money is paid to a job board (See previous idea thread) which in turn pays out to whomever kills and cashes in.
c) Combined bounty. A player can choose to assign a bounty to a person's head or not. The system assigns a small bounty (5, 10%? Debate....) and then the player can choose to up the amount out of their own pocket.
Now I realize the bounty system can be exploited 7 ways from sunday, but its a start, and flawed ideas are better than none.
Come on guys, I realize that this is a gombastically long thread, but has nobody had any ideas on the subject in the last.... *checks date* 18 DAYS ??? Where are the intelligent and well thought-out suggestions!?
The Gods up on Mount Icarus deemed this subject important, let us not anger them by ignoring it... *grovel*
I personally want to hear everyone else's take on PvP, especially after I've tossed in a few new angles in the above two posts.
Like you mentioned, non-PvP people will not be able to go outside the safe areas. This could turn the game off to some. But I do like what you've put up. One thing that should make it easier for the non-PvPers is that you can have buildings in NPC settlements, which means they don't need to leave the cities unless they want to.
I think Risk vs. Reward is what the full PvP areas is about. There you will find the coolest stuff, but you will also be in the most danger.
What you mentioned for the newbie players is an awesome system that should work well.
As for the bounty system, you should have to post stuff up, and only have the game post bounties for players that kill multiple people (say 10+). And if you're going to post a bounty, the game should tell you what a good bounty price is for the target. You can adjust it +/- 10% or so, but thats it so that rich players don't start putting out huge bounties just to grief players.
The price should be based on your kill/death ratio vs. players and vs. NPCs, as well as quality of equipment (how shotta and dakka it is). Also, there should be NPC bounty hunters for big bounties.
Just brainstorming, good stuff Xatros
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" Death match arenas and capture the flag scenarios"
From the features list of the website.
Unless they mean deathmatches against NPC and flag matches against NPCs, I'm assuming that there will be arena type competitions betweens teams of players. Not sure about PVP outside of those areas, but I know im looking forward to those!
I think the rewards should go to the winning team, maybe some reputation points, or even just some oil or currency. If they do decide to go with points (i know this isn't too realistic) people should be able to buy things with their points at the Arena store or something...
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Comments
I know the effective range of a pistol should only be 20-30 meters (though some do go 40-50, its rare). However, if I can't hit a person at 50 paces (ok, 100 is pusing it), then whats the use of a pistol? get an SMG or Shotgun. They have better range and accuracy (a shotgun spred at 100 meters is under 1 ft wide, so if you center it at someone's chest, the whole blast will hit).
I'm saying if someone stands, aims, waits and then fires, they should be able to hit at 2-3 times the range of just aiming in the direction and firing. It would do less than maximum effective damage, but it would still hit at that range, and would still do damage.
500 meters is a good distance for rifles, as no one would have the training or time to learn to hit any further. One thing is, snipers shooting at that range and farther usually set their weapon on something, or use a bipod. This is to steady the weapon. Should we need to set the weapon up (either on a bipod or a flat surface and cushioning) to keep accuracy at that range? I think we should, but I wonder what you all think.
Also, how do you take into effect the ping of people? Those on dial-up will always be at the mercy of those on DSL/Cable who will be at the mercy of those on T1/T3. It may not be necessarily slow, but their ability to react will be slowed considerably.
Waiting For: something good
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Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
1) Who can PvP? I think you come up with different rule sets for different servers as WoW did. You will never make everyone happy, give people a choice.
2) Where can you PvP? I think you should have contested or PVP enabled areas that are higher level areas. Each faction or clan should have an area they control and within that area PVP should be disabled. This would be the lowbie leveling area. You have to give folks a safe haven to learn the game and get going.
3) Penalties of getting killed. As the other poster said, depends on the frequency and setting. If you are out in the general world a corpse run and small XP loss for a PVP kill makes sense. If you are in a battlefield or a designated area for PVP maybe a loss of some cash or one item can be looted.
4) Penalties FOR killing. Hurt your faction standing and make NPCs aggro to you. If you are a griefer some kind of outcast label so that everyone is aggro.
5) Perks to killing (ie XP, Status/Fame, Loot Rights) Faction rank, controlling location, resources, territory for your faction. Ability to loot a small portion of someones funds that are on them (have to have a bank so people don't have to carry all their money).
6) Previous mistakes (What have other games done WRONG) I think WoW is decent, but there has to be a penalty for some of the ganking behaviour. Yes you have the possibility that low levels can grief a higher level player, but that is an exception not a rule. A level 60 in WoW should get penalized for ganking someone 20-30 levels lower. A level 60 horde should not be taking out level 25s in Darkshire, or even level 30s in STV. Getting the balance right so that low levels can't grief them back is a challenge, but I think that happens maybe 2% of the time.
7) Balance issues Seems to me balancing a game against PVE is fairly simple. But in PVP it is next to impossible. There will always be players who find an optimal mix of stats and skills that make them unbalanced. In SWG you could watch as people moved from Swordsman, to Combat Medic, to Tera Kasi.... Do the best you can and change things on the fly, that is the beauty of MMOs, you can make changes as you go. As far as realism goes, I am more of a fan of the SWG model than WoW. If there is a sword and I know how to use it, I should be able to use any sword. The level limits on gear in WoW are their for balance, but they don't make sense. However, in SWG different weapon types required certain skill levels.
1) different rules for different servers means that the devs have to make multiple rules for every addition to the game. This means more code. That means more chance of bugs in the system.
One set of rules for all servers means that all content will be using the same coding, which means the devs only have to make everything once, instead of multiple times. Easier for them, and less worry for us all.
2) The factions in games are not going to be like WoW, you don't start with a faction, and most of the controlled areas will not be controlled by a faction, or only 1 faction. Some towns may be completely neutral, with no factions in it. Others may have multiple factions in 1 town. The factions will be somewhat important, but the game does not revolve around them.
Also, this is going to be a First-Person Shooter (FPS). That means that you won't have combat levels. Anyone could potentially start right up and go take on the toughest people if they're a good enough shot. I believe that rather than have a no-PVP zone, starting areas and the towns around them should have heavy police patrol, which would attack anyone immediately if they attacked someone else. These should be tough NPCs, but not impossible to kill.
And also, this is the post apocalyptic world, its dangerous out there. You should have to be wery of anyone you meet. You play cards with some people you should always have a hand on your gun. Anyone should be able to attack anyone else. Otherwise its not really a danger to be around others. Some people will just kill you outright, thats how it is. Some people will protect you, thats how it is.
3) Penalties I go back and forth with. Sometimes I believe that you should just drop everything you're carrying if you die. This is not only realistic, its a reward for PvP. But the bad part is that it also rewards ganking, which we don't want. However, if you don't get to loot from someone else, then theres no reason to fight at all, which takes away from realism. Raiders should be able to be raiders, against both NPCs and PCs.
You will die out there, that is asured. The only thing frequency should depend on is you ability with a weapon and your ability to survive in the world, which includes not getting into combat. Again, this is an FPS game, so the only XP you can lose would be from crafting and and other non-combat stuff, which really doesn't make sense.
The company said they wanted this "zoneless" which means most likely there won't be PvP zones. Basically, loot needs to be put on the "Realism vs. Fun" scale. People who would whine and bitch for losing all their items in combat would know the risks ahead of time (would be talked about in the Manual and the Tutorial). Also, these people would still act the same way if they lost only 1 item and some cash. They would also act the same way if they just lost some XP.
4) again, faction is not that important. However you do have a point. If you kill someone who is in high standing with a faction, then you should lose standing with them. NPCs of that faction my indeed aggro you for a short time, unless you are at a higher standing. If you are in a higher standing than the other guy (2-3 times as high lets say), then there will be little affect (small drop in standing, no NPC action). Maybe NPCs in the area will scream "Murderer!" or something similar.
5) faction rank would be good, maybe location, resorce or territory control (see below). Again, loot is a touchy subject, as you have whiners whenever they lose anything.
6) With it being a shooter, newbie players acctually have a chance. They may not have equpment equal to a veteran, but if they're good enough they should be able to beat him easy. Since there are no levels, you'll have to check out what your opponent looks like to see if they're acctually a vet or not (someone talked about this a few pages back). Vets trying to gank newbies will have to deal with NPC polices as well as the newbies of skill.
7) With the Combat Upgrade, only certain high leveled weapons need you to be at certain skill levels anymore. As a base player, you can use most weapons without the need of a certain skill level. You can use most pistols, with only certain ones needing higher levels (flame pistol or launcher pistol being two that need comando ranks).
As for this game, with it being FPS based, you can basically pick up any weapons and shoot/swing it. That doesn't mean you should be able to take care of it when not in combat, but you can still shoot it when in combat (until it breaks).
Now I hope that seeing that its a shooter based combat hasn't scared you away (as it did with someone else).
I have an idea that came to me when I was commenting to your Perks for Killing section. If you defeat someone in combat, that shouldn't mean they are dead right out. They should fall to the ground, unable to continue in combat. At this point they can still talk, but can't get up or take any actions. If you want, you can have them give up ceratain things (items, territory, buildings, etc) instead of being killed. You help them up, they give you stuff.
I'm going to quote a post by Derida that I think goes over everything pretty well.
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
That actually sounds really really good. Of course there would have to be a time limit for being knocked out. I'd say a good minute in a half two minutes. After the time limit went out you'd bleed to death. This would be a really good way to rob people without them losing everything or to get information out of someone. The roleplaying possibilities are endless!
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
The RP possabilities are limited only by your mind!
....and the game system
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
I know we have talked about this before but I want to bring it up again. Why not just have a /command that flags you for PvP. And the only way another player can PvP you or shoot you is to flag himself. Then all you have to do is put a time limit in before you can unflag yourself.
Easy enough, people who dont want PvP are safe and if they flag themselfs, they should know what they are getting themselfs into.
Comments???
Wont work, at least not for me...pretty simple reason why..
Say you found an old junkyard filled with parts for putting together vehicles, you and your clan decide to go to town disassembling things etc, when a couple of guys decide they want some of the stuff too, normally I'd say back off, and if they didnt back off I'd shoot. Obviously if they're not flagged they can just go about looting our stuff willy nilly....unless you implemented a sort of temporary territory system where you could claim that junkyard area and any one who entered that would be auto flagged, except I dont want to see that in my realistic post apoc game, I probably would play something else to be honest.
If you havent been able to tell the cookie cutter BS solutions really dont work that well in my mind, and if I my make an ass out of you and me, I dont think Icarus wants cookie cutter stuff in their game either (pronounced ither because I feel like sounding snotty).
Lets keep it simple; two servers, the only problem I can see is dynamic content and icarus having twice the amount to keep their eyes on if the servers diverge differently due to player choices, but I think that would be best.
Two servers is not a solution in my mind. Its the most STUPID idea to use. You end up splitting the community into two groups which is not something you really should do with this kinda game. Easiet way now in my mind is to make the entire place PvP and just deal witht he greifers and gankers....
I hear ya. I think people who are fed up with the ultra-carebear games of today will try this game out. Plus a break from swords and magic is allways nice.
___________________________
The Golden Rule.
Risk vs. Reward
Couldnt agree more about the Swords and Magik crap... yak.... /me Vomits.
I cant bloody wait... my Alienware is coming this Wednsday.... [Thanx to Playing EVE Online, he he he] I want this game out now!!!!!!
Patience, its better to wait and get a good game than rush and get nothing.
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
directly from fallenearth.com....
FALLEN EARTH doesnt allow Player vs Player combat outside of certain missions or areas. Accessing those special missions or areas will be your decision -- getting killed is your option, killing players who havent agreed to the special conditions isnt.
See, this is why I never read the FAQs, always find something bad in there....
PvP could still be done. Just have a weapons check at the entrance of every town/settled area so that you have to give up your weapons. I still think the wilderness should be open PvP, not only in "certain missions or areas". How can it be zoneless if there are only certain zones you can PvP in?
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
WOW!! Totally missed that!
I think they mean zoneless in the sense of never having to be load another area IE: zoning from lets say Rome Blue to Rome Red, (Anarchy Online) ie: zone walls. They are going for you being able to drivce anywhere w/o hitting a zone wall. But they can easily make zones ie: player cities where you dont have to wait for a load time.
Did I explain good enough?
I know what you mean. I like the zone walls in Anarchy much more than the zones in EQ. You could see them and avoid them if you needed to.
To error is human, to forgive is devine. Neither are US Marine Corps doctrine.
Being the hardcore Roleplayer I am, PvP is something I do when a break is needed, rather than a full time occupation. Coming from SWG, I've had countless instances of when a very fun RP event has been ruined by a group of 12 year old gankers.
Building on several previous ideas:
-NPC/PC guards: Have both available, since there's not always going to be a PC around for a NPvPer (Non PvPer, rather than the demeaning term of "carebear"
) to hire out. Naturally, PCs have the ability to be either cheaper than NPC guards, or have a higher level of skill.
Problems: What if the player decides to stab you in the back halfway into the desert? How do you make sure that the defending party gets paid? How do you advertise or find this service without spamming?
Solutions: Job board. These could be noticeable sized (but not too big) posters around a town advertising protection. It would list the name, price, and whether it was an NPC or PC. Those hiring themselves out would simply register their price on this board. Their name would remain on it until they either got accepted, left the town, went offline, or withdrew their offer. Those hiring others would just check one of these posters to see what was available and in the price range. Way I see it, there should be a central office/booth/table that people hire at. After this is several posters around town listing those that have signed up, and where the office/booth is. Bigger towns could have NPCs at the booth, while smaller ones would just have a chalkboard or something.
Payment would be dropped from the employer's bank or wallet upon accepting, and given to the guard when they are finished. If the contract is canceled before leaving town, the employer gets a refund. Anything after this, the guard gets payed. There's a whole lot of problems with this one too, but no system is perfect.
EDIT: Forgot to include the solution for "what if they backstab you?" Well, since its a contract set up through the job board, the game could make it so that the guard and employer cannot harm each other. Again, up for debate.
Next: Radii of non PvP around towns, cities, outposts, etc. I fully agree with this idea, the exact distance is up for debate. I think between 1 and 3Km from the city center, depending on its population, size, etc. Player-made cities should also emit a radius, though tiny camps would have a much smaller radius than, say, an NPC outpost. They should also be destructable, but only when 50% or more (Percentage up for debate) of the population is online. This prevents a single or group of raiders from obliberating a town when its owners were sleeping IRL, then waking up and finding everything gone. Though we might support this for realism.
I'd go farther, but fingers are worn out and energy getting low...more later
-Xatros Ketosha
Alright Delgado, since I've been requested...
Lets cover the whole PvP consent issue from my random idea viewpoint.
First off, lets outline some Generally Accepted Principals about FE and the whole post-apocalyptic world with relation to player combat.
1) Players in cities will be safe from other players and creatures.
2) Players near cities will be in a relative "Safe zone"
3) Players farther away from cities, but close to main roads, will have few animal problems but potential NPC raider problems.
4) Players far away from cities (More than 1.5Km or so) will have less chances of getting jumped by raiders, but a high chance of encountering large and hostile creatures.
5) Cities have laws and law enforcement.
6) Common roads and paths will also have patrols, probably by enforcers or whatever the local faction is, to protect travelers. As well, patrols might run only once daily, so the only threat really neutralized is permanent camps.
7) Back roads or those not commonly used will probably be faster but more dangerous.
8) Out in the wilds has no law and no law enforcement. That means no patrols, plenty of chances for raider camps, and so on.
Now, here's where the problems arise:
1) Should players be allowed to PvP away from cities but close to roads, acting as raiders?
2) Should players be allowed to PvP in the completely lawless zones?
I realize the Gods up on Mount Icarus outlined their idea of PvP on the site, but its in my opinion that they set that FAQ up to satisfy the casual browser and to give us forum campers something to work with. (FE devs, correct me if I'm wrong.) Going on the above 2 problems:
1) I think Yes. Remember we're trying to balance realism with noobs and gameplay. However, noobs venturing out from one city to another are doing so for one of three reasons that come to mind. Here they are, with solutions.
a) As part of a learning quest. Solution: Issue a god-powerful NPC guard for the journey (make it very short please, as in 1Km or less to an outpost or something) Or: Make the new player invulnerable for the duration of their starter quests. New players on the quest could have a visual tag identifying them as such so that people let them pass without wasting ammo, possibly giving tips or offers. Make the quest optional, but only allow it to be canceled while in the vicinity of a city. This way, they dont accidentally turn it off in the middle of a group of raiders and get killed.
b) By request. A group of players has identified the person as a newbie and offered to take them along on a trip. They turn the aforementioned quest off and ride along. IMO, they're under the protection of the inviting group of players, who ought to be able to protect the guy/girl.
c) To explore. The noobquest and various helpers around town will all tell the new player not to venture out too far, or they risk being endangered. If they're still on the noobquest, then the PvP invulnerability thing will continue. They can still be hurt by NPCs and creatures, but suffer no item decay or loss as a result.
Regarding the noobquest (NQ for short now): There runs the risk that veteran players or even noobs with a penchant for being stupid will try to leave the quest up so that they can never be killed. Note that they cannot harm other players while the NQ is active, either. So, we have the NQ expire and turn off when one of the following conditions is met:
a) The NQ is completed.
b) A certain amount of game time has been logged and the player moves out of the city. Say, 6 hours online.
2) Yes again. Remember these zones are lawless, if a scavenger needs to protect his stash or a raider defend their camp from wandering players, then they should be free to do so, within the bounds of realism. I realize we aren't being very considerate to the NPvPers, but that's where the bounty idea comes in....
Obviously, if one player kills another out in the wastes, then the person's family is going to want revenge and place a bounty. In the world of FE, so will that person once they've been recreated at a cloning facility or whatnot. Now, we have three choices for bounty systems here:
a) Game bounty. Based on the level of skills and average worth of the goods the player had on them when they died in PvP, a set percentage of this worth (25%? Debate...) is assigned as a bounty to the player's head, paid to whomever kills them. We're gonna have to work out a system so the guy's friends dont just kill him to get paid. Some kind of factional limitation. Out of ideas there, they've got a system in EVE for it I think. Bounties have to be collected in a city, so criminals can't cash in. The bounty stays until someone cashes it in, meaning the bugger can get killed multiple times before the bounty disappears. Only one person can cash in.
b) Player bounty. The player wants revenge and assigns a bounty to the criminal's head. Bounties can only be placed on a person who has killed you in the last 72 hours (Debate...) and are optional. Money is paid to a job board (See previous idea thread) which in turn pays out to whomever kills and cashes in.
c) Combined bounty. A player can choose to assign a bounty to a person's head or not. The system assigns a small bounty (5, 10%? Debate....) and then the player can choose to up the amount out of their own pocket.
Now I realize the bounty system can be exploited 7 ways from sunday, but its a start, and flawed ideas are better than none.
Keep the ideas coming...
-Xatros Ketosha
Come on guys, I realize that this is a gombastically long thread, but has nobody had any ideas on the subject in the last.... *checks date* 18 DAYS ??? Where are the intelligent and well thought-out suggestions!?
The Gods up on Mount Icarus deemed this subject important, let us not anger them by ignoring it... *grovel*
I personally want to hear everyone else's take on PvP, especially after I've tossed in a few new angles in the above two posts.
-Xatros Ketosha
Sorry, missed this when you posted it.
Like you mentioned, non-PvP people will not be able to go outside the safe areas. This could turn the game off to some. But I do like what you've put up. One thing that should make it easier for the non-PvPers is that you can have buildings in NPC settlements, which means they don't need to leave the cities unless they want to.
I think Risk vs. Reward is what the full PvP areas is about. There you will find the coolest stuff, but you will also be in the most danger.
What you mentioned for the newbie players is an awesome system that should work well.
As for the bounty system, you should have to post stuff up, and only have the game post bounties for players that kill multiple people (say 10+). And if you're going to post a bounty, the game should tell you what a good bounty price is for the target. You can adjust it +/- 10% or so, but thats it so that rich players don't start putting out huge bounties just to grief players.
The price should be based on your kill/death ratio vs. players and vs. NPCs, as well as quality of equipment (how shotta and dakka it is). Also, there should be NPC bounty hunters for big bounties.
Just brainstorming, good stuff Xatros
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]
" Death match arenas and capture the flag scenarios"
From the features list of the website.
Unless they mean deathmatches against NPC and flag matches against NPCs, I'm assuming that there will be arena type competitions betweens teams of players. Not sure about PVP outside of those areas, but I know im looking forward to those!
I think the rewards should go to the winning team, maybe some reputation points, or even just some oil or currency. If they do decide to go with points (i know this isn't too realistic) people should be able to buy things with their points at the Arena store or something...
THUUUNDEERRRDOOME!!
Waiting For: something good
Games Tried: SWTOR, Star Trek Online, EQ, EQ2, Earth and Beyond, Planetside, Lineage 2, Eve Online, WoW, City of Heroes, City of Villians, Auto Assault, Fallen Earth
Star Wars: Galaxies - Ibra Olasi (Valcyn Server) [Dead, screw you SOE]