They basically said, if TOR is successful, developers will copy this model for years to come. The story based, subscription MMORPG, voiceover, expensive AAA title.
It will be one of the few games to take on WoW head to head with a subscription base, and do ok. Because they all agreed the game was taking on WoW, not going for a niche like Secret World or something like that.
Or, if ToR is a horrible failure, more games will go F2P and developers will be scared to take on WoW because they know they'll just lose money. They will concentrate on either F2P titles, or niche games that don't compete with WoW.
I guess sort of, if ToR can't do it, nobody can.
Supposed to release this year I think, and even then you have to wait a month or two to see if people renew their subs or just buy the box then dump the game.
The only flaw in this theory is taking for granted that a lot of other developers are capable of putting together a budget on the scale of what SWTOR has. My guess is few have those kinds of resources at their disposal so they simply can't pull out the stops the way Bioware is doing. Although it may help to loosen the pursestrings of publishers and investors somewhat.
Sure you'll play through multiple storylines - many people will - but how many single-player Bioware - NOT MMO - fans will be converted enough to pay a monthly subscription for the privilege? How many will be perfectly happy to find that that third playthrough will now cost them $15.00?
Single player rpg fans dislike MMOs for many reasons, and lack of compelling storyline might only be one of them.
All huge selling games get copied, anybody can tell you that.
But it might be that if TOR is the next number one the companies might be forced to invest a lot of more money into their next games.
The thing that truly sets TOR apart from other games isn't the story but the huge budget and the complete voice acting.
I am not sure if I think that would be the best thing for the genre, I rather see the top split between a few different games than what we had since Wow released.
For me it would be best if TOR, GW2, Titan and WoDO splitted the players and got 3 million each or so. That would lead to more creativity in the long run and even games that just copy everything from others would have to mix what they steal from who.
Sure you'll play through multiple storylines - many people will - but how many single-player Bioware - NOT MMO - fans will be converted enough to pay a monthly subscription for the privilege? How many will be perfectly happy to find that that third playthrough will now cost them $15.00? Single player rpg fans dislike MMOs for many reasons, and lack of compelling storyline might only be one of them. I'll take DarkPony's bet
Why not? For all the bitching the majority of them did most seemed to purchase the dlcs that came out for those single player games to experience maybe a couple hours worth of content at the most. I don't see that being a factor.
I can see some other items being factors in deciding the fate of this game far as they're concerned but not the sub.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
The Scoundrel is the healing class of the republic. Once that was made clear, I was pretty sure this game will fail. This is nothing more than a story played with others, and once the PvE story is over, that's it. maybe you re-roll and try to find another story as republic/sith alternative, but replayability will be terrible.
KOTOR is one of the few games I replayed all the way to the end. I played as light side, then as dark side, and it was fun both times.
"After the Pve story is over" well, that's a LOT of story. Not sure I'd even make it through all of it, much less be worried about replay.
Plus the whole point, the stock of an mmo (or at least it used to be) was/is to get the gamer immersed into the world and more importantly associated with their character. It's where WoW wins against many games, they had people who wanted to live the live of the characters they had played in other games in that setting, then once a certain amount of effort (different for each individual and some never) is put into the developing and playing the life of that character, the gamer doesn't want to let go.
It's the reason so many go back to WoW even after playing other mmo's that they feel are just as good, they have an invested worth of themselves in the existance of their characters, it's why people still play older games which are in many ways, 'outdated'. Ironically I also feel it's where other smaller devs could make inroads, it's where I hope TSW will elevate.
Don't get me wrong I'm no RP'er, but that connection to your charcter is what keeps you playing long term. The artical is taking a clinical look at the market and for that its conclusions are fine but it's far too disconnected from the detail as to what constitutes a 'good' game, what motivated people to continue playing.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
Sure you'll play through multiple storylines - many people will - but how many single-player Bioware - NOT MMO - fans will be converted enough to pay a monthly subscription for the privilege? How many will be perfectly happy to find that that third playthrough will now cost them $15.00? Single player rpg fans dislike MMOs for many reasons, and lack of compelling storyline might only be one of them. I'll take DarkPony's bet
I believe Blizzard attracted many players that never paid a subscription before. If the game is good enough people will pay.
The Scoundrel is the healing class of the republic. Once that was made clear, I was pretty sure this game will fail. This is nothing more than a story played with others, and once the PvE story is over, that's it. maybe you re-roll and try to find another story as republic/sith alternative, but replayability will be terrible.
KOTOR is one of the few games I replayed all the way to the end. I played as light side, then as dark side, and it was fun both times.
"After the Pve story is over" well, that's a LOT of story. Not sure I'd even make it through all of it, much less be worried about replay.
is there something wrong with actually being able to play thru a storyline with others in an MMO without just the mindless box of text to tell it to you? I can't wait to try every single class, and play through every single classes different storyline, then play as the dark side and do the same thing... this game has tons of replayable aspects to it to keep anyone occupied for quite some time.
Sure you'll play through multiple storylines - many people will - but how many single-player Bioware - NOT MMO - fans will be converted enough to pay a monthly subscription for the privilege? How many will be perfectly happy to find that that third playthrough will now cost them $15.00? Single player rpg fans dislike MMOs for many reasons, and lack of compelling storyline might only be one of them. I'll take DarkPony's bet
Why not? For all the bitching the majority of them did most seemed to purchase the dlcs that came out for those single player games to experience maybe a couple hours worth of content at the most. I don't see that being a factor.
I can see some other items being factors in deciding the fate of this game far as they're concerned but not the sub.
DLCs are not the equivalent to subscriptions and here is why. You pay $10 for the Gray Warden Cloak of awesomeness (heh, it's been a while since I watched my husband play through DA:O but the exact item/quest details are nor necessary to my point). Forevermore (or as long as Bioware allows), you have access to that content.
You pay $15 to play your third alt in two months. You finish the storyline on that alt and cancel your sub because you're finished playing for now. Two months later you want to pop in on that alt - whoops, that's another $15! Just to see the character again. All money transactions are not created equal, and I'm not making things up when I say that a not insignificant number of SPRPG fans do NOT want to pay a sub just to continue the KOTOR story.
Why do they matter? Because you won't get to multimillions of subs solely by cannibalizing the existing MMO market. You need conversions to the long-term sub model. I genuinely don't think SWTOR is gonna get them. It will undoubtedly sell like gangbusters, though.
All money transactions are not created equal, and I'm not making things up when I say that a not insignificant number of SPRPG fans do NOT want to pay a sub just to continue the KOTOR story. Why do they matter? Because you won't get to multimillions of subs solely by cannibalizing the existing MMO market. You need conversions to the long-term sub model. I genuinely don't think SWTOR is gonna get them. It will undoubtedly sell like gangbusters, though.
I don't disagree with this, to my mind I look at it in it's merits and it is logical, it is how I would view this as well. However in September 2004 it would also have been my own and many others' opinion on the market at the time. The fact is none of us can say what the 'potential' market for a subscription mmo is, to even feel that we are anywhere near it's capacity has proven to be incorrect before and must be a naive view even if it does seem realistic.
----- The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
It's hard for new MMO's to succeed when the market is full of 12 year olds that immediately dislike anything that is similar to WoW. I feel this is a problem that arose from the people that discovered WoW as their first MMO. People seem to overinflate the subscriptions of WoW as well. I guarentee they don't have 12 million active subs. They probably only have 2-3 Million in the US after Cataclysm. Just look at their sales numbers. Look at the Warcraft Census, there is 4,638,011 characters. And you better believe that a huge percentage of those are alts.
Sure you'll play through multiple storylines - many people will - but how many single-player Bioware - NOT MMO - fans will be converted enough to pay a monthly subscription for the privilege? How many will be perfectly happy to find that that third playthrough will now cost them $15.00? Single player rpg fans dislike MMOs for many reasons, and lack of compelling storyline might only be one of them. I'll take DarkPony's bet
I believe Blizzard attracted many players that never paid a subscription before. If the game is good enough people will pay.
No, Blizzard attracted people who didn't even play games, through friends and significant others and pop culture and their coworkers and Mr. T. WoW also - very important distinction - doesn't position itself as a culmination of a Single Player RPG franchise.
Most of the features that are supposed to be worth the subscription are features that SP fans have to be won over to, anyway, such as flashpoints, open PVP, and raiding - unlike non-gamers who don't know otherwise, many SPRPG fans play them for a reason, namely: no other people, and/or no subscription, among other reasons.
I could very well be wrong, but I'm willing to bet you don't have any idea either of how many SP RPG fans will genuinely sub up for a multiplayer experience and subscription model they have expressly shunned in the past.
It still amazed me that people still think this game will get millions. Pesonally, I thnk it will be lucky to have a million, maybe a million and a half. I don't think it is going to revolutionize anything considering there is nothing revolutionary about it. SWG never had millions of Starwars fans go play a Starwars game before, why would they do so now ? Just alot of hype, nothing more.
Supposedly they break even at 500K, which is still a big number for any game that is not WoW.
But of course they don't want to break even, they want to make some serious profits, which will take a million plus subs.
Im not sure the SWG comparison is valid.
The article pointed out all the differences between ToR and SWG, basically saying, this isn't anything like SWG at all.
Both games are based on Star Wars, and that's where the similarties stop.
For example, in SWG everyone wanted to play a Jedi, but you couldn't till you leveled up every skill. Ugh!
You can play a Jedi right out of the box with ToR.
This is one of the features i loved about SWG(pre NGE) and dont like about ToR...Everyone and their moms running around as Jedi...atleast in SWG when you saw a Jedi...you knew they had put a lot of time into becoming one and deserved it....
Exactly the kind of thinking SOE had about Jedi. You and 2 other people 'loved it' and most everyone else left.
DLCs are not the equivalent to subscriptions and here is why. You pay $10 for the Gray Warden Cloak of awesomeness (heh, it's been a while since I watched my husband play through DA:O but the exact item/quest details are nor necessary to my point). Forevermore (or as long as Bioware allows), you have access to that content. You pay $15 to play your third alt in two months. You finish the storyline on that alt and cancel your sub because you're finished playing for now. Two months later you want to pop in on that alt - whoops, that's another $15! Just to see the character again. All money transactions are not created equal, and I'm not making things up when I say that a not insignificant number of SPRPG fans do NOT want to pay a sub just to continue the KOTOR story. Why do they matter? Because you won't get to multimillions of subs solely by cannibalizing the existing MMO market. You need conversions to the long-term sub model. I genuinely don't think SWTOR is gonna get them. It will undoubtedly sell like gangbusters, though.
I'm not saying they are the same. My point is that there are those willing to spend more money than just purchasing the game. Add to that the fact it isn't any mystery the game will have a subscription and regardless the gamer we all know at this point how it goes with mmorpgs so I don't see the subscription being an issue at this point.
Will it stop some from purchasing the game? Maybe, not enough to be significant though. There simply is too much interest in this game due to the ip and the company behind the game. How this game will fare in the long run is going to depend on the quality of the game, amount of content, marketing, and customer service. The sub is going to play very little difference if any in the whole scheme of things. The only way the sub would come into question far as players accepting it or being detrimental to the retention or overall profitability of the game would be: if they tried charging a higher rate than what is currently deemed to be the acceptable monthly fee, or if the game was dramatically lacking in content to the point consumers questioned the validity of the game having a purchasing price tag and monthly fee.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
All money transactions are not created equal, and I'm not making things up when I say that a not insignificant number of SPRPG fans do NOT want to pay a sub just to continue the KOTOR story. Why do they matter? Because you won't get to multimillions of subs solely by cannibalizing the existing MMO market. You need conversions to the long-term sub model. I genuinely don't think SWTOR is gonna get them. It will undoubtedly sell like gangbusters, though.
I don't disagree with this, to my mind I look at it in it's merits and it is logical, it is how I would view this as well. However in September 2004 it would also have been my own and many others' opinion on the market at the time. The fact is none of us can say what the 'potential' market for a subscription mmo is, to even feel that we are anywhere near it's capacity has proven to be incorrect before and must be a naive view even if it does seem realistic.
I don't deny you your point, however there is one crucial difference between today and September 2004 and that is: options.
At any rate, I have no horse in this race, this is just my considered view. I don't like to see any MMO - ANY MMO, not even Hellgate London - fail to recoup on its investment. My husband, single-player fiend he is, actually wants more MMOs to fail because he feels this is where companies are putting their money instead of into the quality single-player games that he enjoys. He does not want to be cajoled into grouping, or raiding, or paying a subscription to access his characters or his epic tale. He is not anywhere near alone, is all I'm saying .
DLCs are not the equivalent to subscriptions and here is why. You pay $10 for the Gray Warden Cloak of awesomeness (heh, it's been a while since I watched my husband play through DA:O but the exact item/quest details are nor necessary to my point). Forevermore (or as long as Bioware allows), you have access to that content. You pay $15 to play your third alt in two months. You finish the storyline on that alt and cancel your sub because you're finished playing for now. Two months later you want to pop in on that alt - whoops, that's another $15! Just to see the character again. All money transactions are not created equal, and I'm not making things up when I say that a not insignificant number of SPRPG fans do NOT want to pay a sub just to continue the KOTOR story. Why do they matter? Because you won't get to multimillions of subs solely by cannibalizing the existing MMO market. You need conversions to the long-term sub model. I genuinely don't think SWTOR is gonna get them. It will undoubtedly sell like gangbusters, though.
I'm not saying they are the same. My point is that there are those willing to spend more money than just purchasing the game. Add to that the fact it isn't any mystery the game will have a subscription and regardless the gamer we all know at this point how it goes with mmorpgs so I don't see the subscription being an issue at this point.
Will it stop some from purchasing the game? Maybe, not enough to be significant though. There simply is too much interest in this game due to the ip and the company behind the game.
What are you basing your suppositions on? I posted that these were my suspicions and thoughts, yet you seem certain. You have access to knowledge I do not? Please, share with the class!
Also, I did not suggest the subscription fee would be a surprise to people buying the game. And I'm not even suggesting that the subscription will prevent people from buying it. I do know for a fact that people are on these very interwebs lamenting that Bioware did not just make KOTOR 3 through 6 rather than bundle them into an MMO. If you have some kind of numerical estimate to show that this is such a minority as to not be a concern, I'd love to know.
I'll just re-iterate: most people who don't play MMOs today, don't do so for a reason. They won't be swayed by Bioware telling them about all the cool multiplayer things they will be able to do in-game, for a subscription fee. So, from what pool will new subscriptions come?
What are you basing your suppositions on? I posted that these were my suspicions and thoughts, yet you seem certain. You have access to knowledge I do not? Please, share with the class!
Please, the crux of both of our posts are based on opinions so lets not get so paltry as to try and pick and choose what we want to try and question as not being based on some factual evidence. Gets to be rather silly when you do.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
So, basically, we all have to hope for TOR to fail horribly in order to get sandbox MMOs?
I dobt you will get that even if it fails. They just arent mainstream enough, at least not for the AAA market. We will have to make do with indie efforts like Perpetum, Eathrise and such. I doubt we will ever see a AAA sandbox
So, basically, we all have to hope for TOR to fail horribly in order to get sandbox MMOs?
I dobt you will get that even if it fails. They just arent mainstream enough, at least not for the AAA market. We will have to make do with indie efforts like Perpetum, Eathrise and such. I doubt we will ever see a AAA sandbox
DLCs are not the equivalent to subscriptions and here is why. You pay $10 for the Gray Warden Cloak of awesomeness (heh, it's been a while since I watched my husband play through DA:O but the exact item/quest details are nor necessary to my point). Forevermore (or as long as Bioware allows), you have access to that content. You pay $15 to play your third alt in two months. You finish the storyline on that alt and cancel your sub because you're finished playing for now. Two months later you want to pop in on that alt - whoops, that's another $15! Just to see the character again. All money transactions are not created equal, and I'm not making things up when I say that a not insignificant number of SPRPG fans do NOT want to pay a sub just to continue the KOTOR story. Why do they matter? Because you won't get to multimillions of subs solely by cannibalizing the existing MMO market. You need conversions to the long-term sub model. I genuinely don't think SWTOR is gonna get them. It will undoubtedly sell like gangbusters, though.
I'm not saying they are the same. My point is that there are those willing to spend more money than just purchasing the game. Add to that the fact it isn't any mystery the game will have a subscription and regardless the gamer we all know at this point how it goes with mmorpgs so I don't see the subscription being an issue at this point.
Will it stop some from purchasing the game? Maybe, not enough to be significant though. There simply is too much interest in this game due to the ip and the company behind the game.
What are you basing your suppositions on? I posted that these were my suspicions and thoughts, yet you seem certain. You have access to knowledge I do not? Please, share with the class!
Also, I did not suggest the subscription fee would be a surprise to people buying the game. And I'm not even suggesting that the subscription will prevent people from buying it. I do know for a fact that people are on these very interwebs lamenting that Bioware did not just make KOTOR 3 through 6 rather than bundle them into an MMO. If you have some kind of numerical estimate to show that this is such a minority as to not be a concern, I'd love to know.
I'll just re-iterate: most people who don't play MMOs today, don't do so for a reason. They won't be swayed by Bioware telling them about all the cool multiplayer things they will be able to do in-game, for a subscription fee. So, from what pool will new subscriptions come?
There are over 1 billion estimated gamers in the world. 46 million of those are US mmo players.
The Star Wars franchise has earned over 22 billion dollars.
The original KOTOR made by Bioware (KOTOR II was not) sold over 1.5 million copies on the xbox alone.
Bioware has sold more than 10 million copies of ME, DA and KOTOR franchises combined.
Stop living inside your box for a minute and think outside it for once.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
It still amazed me that people still think this game will get millions. Pesonally, I thnk it will be lucky to have a million, maybe a million and a half. I don't think it is going to revolutionize anything considering there is nothing revolutionary about it. SWG never had millions of Starwars fans go play a Starwars game before, why would they do so now ? Just alot of hype, nothing more.
Supposedly they break even at 500K, which is still a big number for any game that is not WoW.
But of course they don't want to break even, they want to make some serious profits, which will take a million plus subs.
Im not sure the SWG comparison is valid.
The article pointed out all the differences between ToR and SWG, basically saying, this isn't anything like SWG at all.
Both games are based on Star Wars, and that's where the similarties stop.
For example, in SWG everyone wanted to play a Jedi, but you couldn't till you leveled up every skill. Ugh!
You can play a Jedi right out of the box with ToR.
This is one of the features i loved about SWG(pre NGE) and dont like about ToR...Everyone and their moms running around as Jedi...atleast in SWG when you saw a Jedi...you knew they had put a lot of time into becoming one and deserved it....
Exactly the kind of thinking SOE had about Jedi. You and 2 other people 'loved it' and most everyone else left.
My 2 cents, Jedi killed that experience. I still look at is as Second Life, Star Wars style. Once jedi was introduced and holocrons everyone went for jedi and abandoned everything else. I believe that Lucas Arts had three other titles at the time where people could get their Jedi on elsewhere. They really did run it into the ground. That games communities, guilds went to heck quickly. I left SWG for L2, and after that grind went to WOW for a vacation in kiddie land, which was short lived. I'd go back in a heartbeat if they put up a pre-jedi / BS server. I still game with a handfull of people who would too. Nastalgia 0-o
They basically said, if TOR is successful, developers will copy this model for years to come. The story based, subscription MMORPG, voiceover, expensive AAA title.
single player adventure with monthly fees,6 months and its f2p.
And don't forget the CashShop , so ... single player adventure with monthly fees and cash shop,6 months and its f2p.
hmm now it becomes clear why people were after this game so much more then any other, picking it to pieces, calling it a kids game whatever....your worried what this game will do for the games you will want.
Personally myself i wouldn't worry so the game is a huge success. Know who that affect? the same people WoW is affecting now. Big companies will make big product games while the indie ones will try and find ways around it.
Know what happens if ToR fails? Big companies and investors will just see the MMO industry as not worth it and go back to single player areas.
I'm of the mind that if you get more companies involved (akin to ToR being successful) then companies are more likely to see that theres an alternative to theme park and are likely to branch out into sandbox games. So I see things the other ways. If you want that sandbox game then you'd want ToR to be successful. The more successful a genre is the more likely investors are to say Yes, go with your idea, this genre works.
Noones going to invest in a genre where the only one that can ever make it is WoW. They see that as a bad market to try in. Heck ToR with all it's stuff going on (Bioware/Star wars/ money and market capabaility) they were still worried if Bioware can be successful in this market.
The very last thing this genre wants is for Bioware to fail because then the investors will just say (not in exact words) Pfft, that does that, you can't get a decent share in that department unless your Blizzard.
So the next time a company asks for money to make an MMO, the investors will say..are you blizzard?
When they say....no.
Then the investors will say you have your answer. that field has one success story and thats World of Warcraft, heck even bIoware couldn't do it. Theres no way...*points at person* you can do it. Now go away.
Personally myself Bioware needs to succeed or this genre is in a bad state. Really bad.
Just my veiw of course.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.
It still amazed me that people still think this game will get millions. Pesonally, I thnk it will be lucky to have a million, maybe a million and a half. I don't think it is going to revolutionize anything considering there is nothing revolutionary about it. SWG never had millions of Starwars fans go play a Starwars game before, why would they do so now ? Just alot of hype, nothing more.
Supposedly they break even at 500K, which is still a big number for any game that is not WoW.
But of course they don't want to break even, they want to make some serious profits, which will take a million plus subs.
Im not sure the SWG comparison is valid.
The article pointed out all the differences between ToR and SWG, basically saying, this isn't anything like SWG at all.
Both games are based on Star Wars, and that's where the similarties stop.
For example, in SWG everyone wanted to play a Jedi, but you couldn't till you leveled up every skill. Ugh!
You can play a Jedi right out of the box with ToR.
This is one of the features i loved about SWG(pre NGE) and dont like about ToR...Everyone and their moms running around as Jedi...atleast in SWG when you saw a Jedi...you knew they had put a lot of time into becoming one and deserved it....
If all it takes is putting in the "time", then you might as well just hand it out, cuz that's hardly "earning" it.
Well then havent you played SWG, from the start it i was no one that know for real how to become a jedi, but then bit for bit we solwed the mistery how to become a jedi padawan and then development our chars to be a highly trained jedi, being killd by a BH or die in other way was pretty costly in olday with loosing XP whenskilling up. so we who have become a jedi have worked our buts to be fully trained jedi's and some got higher ranks in the jedi rank.
And not every one could become jedi so in SWTOR its not a skill to become a jedi only how to play the class right.
But we must understand also in SWTOR the Jedi's and SIth lords aint a rare thing in the game but in starwars all was more or less erased from the galaxy.
And when the game will be out for sale we will see how many will like it or not, no one can tell for the moment only have a opinion about it.
And if you dont like starwars at all dont make stupid coments about the game no one force any one to play the game.
And World of Warcraft what new about that every patch is the same only some change in the landscape and some new dungons thats become boring after a couple of weeks and only thing left is raiding but thats become borring to, if you like pvp ahh this new patch now the mage are over powered in pvp or is the warrior that is over powered etc well then pvp become borring to when the balance betwin classe's are f..ked up same shit happends in every new patch or expansion come's and there is not mutch new things thats make the game fun,
Comments
Why are games still under the impression of Go WoW or go Home. AOC as horrid of a job as it did made retarded profits off box sales alone.
Investors and developers need a more sober understanding of the market.
The only flaw in this theory is taking for granted that a lot of other developers are capable of putting together a budget on the scale of what SWTOR has. My guess is few have those kinds of resources at their disposal so they simply can't pull out the stops the way Bioware is doing. Although it may help to loosen the pursestrings of publishers and investors somewhat.
Single player rpg fans dislike MMOs for many reasons, and lack of compelling storyline might only be one of them.
I'll take DarkPony's bet
All huge selling games get copied, anybody can tell you that.
But it might be that if TOR is the next number one the companies might be forced to invest a lot of more money into their next games.
The thing that truly sets TOR apart from other games isn't the story but the huge budget and the complete voice acting.
I am not sure if I think that would be the best thing for the genre, I rather see the top split between a few different games than what we had since Wow released.
For me it would be best if TOR, GW2, Titan and WoDO splitted the players and got 3 million each or so. That would lead to more creativity in the long run and even games that just copy everything from others would have to mix what they steal from who.
Why not? For all the bitching the majority of them did most seemed to purchase the dlcs that came out for those single player games to experience maybe a couple hours worth of content at the most. I don't see that being a factor.
I can see some other items being factors in deciding the fate of this game far as they're concerned but not the sub.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Plus the whole point, the stock of an mmo (or at least it used to be) was/is to get the gamer immersed into the world and more importantly associated with their character. It's where WoW wins against many games, they had people who wanted to live the live of the characters they had played in other games in that setting, then once a certain amount of effort (different for each individual and some never) is put into the developing and playing the life of that character, the gamer doesn't want to let go.
It's the reason so many go back to WoW even after playing other mmo's that they feel are just as good, they have an invested worth of themselves in the existance of their characters, it's why people still play older games which are in many ways, 'outdated'. Ironically I also feel it's where other smaller devs could make inroads, it's where I hope TSW will elevate.
Don't get me wrong I'm no RP'er, but that connection to your charcter is what keeps you playing long term. The artical is taking a clinical look at the market and for that its conclusions are fine but it's far too disconnected from the detail as to what constitutes a 'good' game, what motivated people to continue playing.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
I believe Blizzard attracted many players that never paid a subscription before. If the game is good enough people will pay.
is there something wrong with actually being able to play thru a storyline with others in an MMO without just the mindless box of text to tell it to you? I can't wait to try every single class, and play through every single classes different storyline, then play as the dark side and do the same thing... this game has tons of replayable aspects to it to keep anyone occupied for quite some time.
Why not? For all the bitching the majority of them did most seemed to purchase the dlcs that came out for those single player games to experience maybe a couple hours worth of content at the most. I don't see that being a factor.
I can see some other items being factors in deciding the fate of this game far as they're concerned but not the sub.
DLCs are not the equivalent to subscriptions and here is why. You pay $10 for the Gray Warden Cloak of awesomeness (heh, it's been a while since I watched my husband play through DA:O but the exact item/quest details are nor necessary to my point). Forevermore (or as long as Bioware allows), you have access to that content.You pay $15 to play your third alt in two months. You finish the storyline on that alt and cancel your sub because you're finished playing for now. Two months later you want to pop in on that alt - whoops, that's another $15! Just to see the character again. All money transactions are not created equal, and I'm not making things up when I say that a not insignificant number of SPRPG fans do NOT want to pay a sub just to continue the KOTOR story.
Why do they matter? Because you won't get to multimillions of subs solely by cannibalizing the existing MMO market. You need conversions to the long-term sub model. I genuinely don't think SWTOR is gonna get them. It will undoubtedly sell like gangbusters, though.
I don't disagree with this, to my mind I look at it in it's merits and it is logical, it is how I would view this as well. However in September 2004 it would also have been my own and many others' opinion on the market at the time. The fact is none of us can say what the 'potential' market for a subscription mmo is, to even feel that we are anywhere near it's capacity has proven to be incorrect before and must be a naive view even if it does seem realistic.
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The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species.
It's hard for new MMO's to succeed when the market is full of 12 year olds that immediately dislike anything that is similar to WoW. I feel this is a problem that arose from the people that discovered WoW as their first MMO. People seem to overinflate the subscriptions of WoW as well. I guarentee they don't have 12 million active subs. They probably only have 2-3 Million in the US after Cataclysm. Just look at their sales numbers. Look at the Warcraft Census, there is 4,638,011 characters. And you better believe that a huge percentage of those are alts.
I believe Blizzard attracted many players that never paid a subscription before. If the game is good enough people will pay.
No, Blizzard attracted people who didn't even play games, through friends and significant others and pop culture and their coworkers and Mr. T. WoW also - very important distinction - doesn't position itself as a culmination of a Single Player RPG franchise.Most of the features that are supposed to be worth the subscription are features that SP fans have to be won over to, anyway, such as flashpoints, open PVP, and raiding - unlike non-gamers who don't know otherwise, many SPRPG fans play them for a reason, namely: no other people, and/or no subscription, among other reasons.
I could very well be wrong, but I'm willing to bet you don't have any idea either of how many SP RPG fans will genuinely sub up for a multiplayer experience and subscription model they have expressly shunned in the past.
Exactly the kind of thinking SOE had about Jedi. You and 2 other people 'loved it' and most everyone else left.
Nope, not we all. I don't know why people think that a majority of gamers want sandboxes.
I want a hybrid, a skill based MMORPG with plenty of lore/story, quests, rewards/achievement.
I'm not saying they are the same. My point is that there are those willing to spend more money than just purchasing the game. Add to that the fact it isn't any mystery the game will have a subscription and regardless the gamer we all know at this point how it goes with mmorpgs so I don't see the subscription being an issue at this point.
Will it stop some from purchasing the game? Maybe, not enough to be significant though. There simply is too much interest in this game due to the ip and the company behind the game. How this game will fare in the long run is going to depend on the quality of the game, amount of content, marketing, and customer service. The sub is going to play very little difference if any in the whole scheme of things. The only way the sub would come into question far as players accepting it or being detrimental to the retention or overall profitability of the game would be: if they tried charging a higher rate than what is currently deemed to be the acceptable monthly fee, or if the game was dramatically lacking in content to the point consumers questioned the validity of the game having a purchasing price tag and monthly fee.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I don't deny you your point, however there is one crucial difference between today and September 2004 and that is: options.
At any rate, I have no horse in this race, this is just my considered view. I don't like to see any MMO - ANY MMO, not even Hellgate London - fail to recoup on its investment. My husband, single-player fiend he is, actually wants more MMOs to fail because he feels this is where companies are putting their money instead of into the quality single-player games that he enjoys. He does not want to be cajoled into grouping, or raiding, or paying a subscription to access his characters or his epic tale. He is not anywhere near alone, is all I'm saying
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What are you basing your suppositions on? I posted that these were my suspicions and thoughts, yet you seem certain. You have access to knowledge I do not? Please, share with the class!
Also, I did not suggest the subscription fee would be a surprise to people buying the game. And I'm not even suggesting that the subscription will prevent people from buying it. I do know for a fact that people are on these very interwebs lamenting that Bioware did not just make KOTOR 3 through 6 rather than bundle them into an MMO. If you have some kind of numerical estimate to show that this is such a minority as to not be a concern, I'd love to know.
I'll just re-iterate: most people who don't play MMOs today, don't do so for a reason. They won't be swayed by Bioware telling them about all the cool multiplayer things they will be able to do in-game, for a subscription fee. So, from what pool will new subscriptions come?
Please, the crux of both of our posts are based on opinions so lets not get so paltry as to try and pick and choose what we want to try and question as not being based on some factual evidence. Gets to be rather silly when you do.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I dobt you will get that even if it fails. They just arent mainstream enough, at least not for the AAA market. We will have to make do with indie efforts like Perpetum, Eathrise and such. I doubt we will ever see a AAA sandbox
Archeage.
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
There are over 1 billion estimated gamers in the world. 46 million of those are US mmo players.
The Star Wars franchise has earned over 22 billion dollars.
The original KOTOR made by Bioware (KOTOR II was not) sold over 1.5 million copies on the xbox alone.
Bioware has sold more than 10 million copies of ME, DA and KOTOR franchises combined.
Stop living inside your box for a minute and think outside it for once.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
My 2 cents, Jedi killed that experience. I still look at is as Second Life, Star Wars style. Once jedi was introduced and holocrons everyone went for jedi and abandoned everything else. I believe that Lucas Arts had three other titles at the time where people could get their Jedi on elsewhere. They really did run it into the ground. That games communities, guilds went to heck quickly. I left SWG for L2, and after that grind went to WOW for a vacation in kiddie land, which was short lived. I'd go back in a heartbeat if they put up a pre-jedi / BS server. I still game with a handfull of people who would too. Nastalgia 0-o
And don't forget the CashShop , so ... single player adventure with monthly fees and cash shop,6 months and its f2p.
hmm now it becomes clear why people were after this game so much more then any other, picking it to pieces, calling it a kids game whatever....your worried what this game will do for the games you will want.
Personally myself i wouldn't worry so the game is a huge success. Know who that affect? the same people WoW is affecting now. Big companies will make big product games while the indie ones will try and find ways around it.
Know what happens if ToR fails? Big companies and investors will just see the MMO industry as not worth it and go back to single player areas.
I'm of the mind that if you get more companies involved (akin to ToR being successful) then companies are more likely to see that theres an alternative to theme park and are likely to branch out into sandbox games. So I see things the other ways. If you want that sandbox game then you'd want ToR to be successful. The more successful a genre is the more likely investors are to say Yes, go with your idea, this genre works.
Noones going to invest in a genre where the only one that can ever make it is WoW. They see that as a bad market to try in. Heck ToR with all it's stuff going on (Bioware/Star wars/ money and market capabaility) they were still worried if Bioware can be successful in this market.
The very last thing this genre wants is for Bioware to fail because then the investors will just say (not in exact words) Pfft, that does that, you can't get a decent share in that department unless your Blizzard.
So the next time a company asks for money to make an MMO, the investors will say..are you blizzard?
When they say....no.
Then the investors will say you have your answer. that field has one success story and thats World of Warcraft, heck even bIoware couldn't do it. Theres no way...*points at person* you can do it. Now go away.
Personally myself Bioware needs to succeed or this genre is in a bad state. Really bad.
Just my veiw of course.
Help me Bioware, you're my only hope.
Is ToR going to be good? Dude it's Bioware making a freaking star wars game, all signs point to awesome. -G4tv MMo report.