The only problem I see with AO's system is that it's unfriendly towards newer players. This is probably why the purely talent based system is so popular.
I mean, I would love to see AO's system used more, but I know that a lot of companies don't really want to risk money and effort on a system that will be hard to streamline or update. The talent based progression is probably much easier to balance and program than having to balance 80 or so skills individually and then trying to explain to players that Troopers need to focus in guns, while a consular needs to focus in Force powers on their giant skill list.
Not saying it's impossible, but it's unlikely that AO's system will ever be used again, unless Funcom pulls off a Miracle and remakes AO from the ground up, updating the games look and features in a way that can only be described as orgasmic.
But we're more likely to get hit by a Gamma ray burst from a distant exploding star than to see something like that happening. A man can dream. -,-
But, I digress. The system Bioware used is not surprising - It works, it's probably easy to program, and not only do most people like it, but most people are used to it, and many people new to the MMO genre can easily pick it up. This is why the whole Talent thing has kind of become a standard in MMORPGs.
Hell, WoW isn't even the first game to have this.
But I will say, the veriety of class roles in this game surprises me, and it seems much more lenient than wow's. It's pretty easy to tell what class roles are for each class in wow. A warrior can tank or DPS, a Rogue can DPS, a Priest can heal or DPS, and they only have 2 real hybrid classes (Druid and Paladin) that can explore all three aspects.
With the Old Republic, I was surprised to hear the Troopers were getting a healing spec, and now the Consular's are getting a tank spec. I had it in mind that Knights and Troopers were going to be THE tanks, but it seems like They're going to allow for a little more flexibility.
At the very least, each class can become proficient in something that isn't just DPS. I find that to be a good thing.
The only problem I see with AO's system is that it's unfriendly towards newer players. This is probably why the purely talent based system is so popular.
I mean, I would love to see AO's system used more, but I know that a lot of companies don't really want to risk money and effort on a system that will be hard to streamline or update. The talent based progression is probably much easier to balance and program than having to balance 80 or so skills individually and then trying to explain to players that Troopers need to focus in guns, while a consular needs to focus in Force powers on their giant skill list.
The learning curve and customization/option was what made it good. Soldiers could you pistols, submachine guns, or assault rifles and still be viable (for those of you who have not played, those guns all required different skills). You were not stuck in a box with only 1-2 paths. Or a soldier could choose to be evasion based w/ low hp, or go high hp and be a pseudo tank, or he could just push insane dps.
It is one of the reasons I like Rift, I can choose to be different things within one "calling". But, alas, Rift's progression vastly pales in comparison to AO's. If AO still had a good population, and an active dev team (promises and half ass screenshots do not count), I would never leave that game. Me and my wife had 4 active accounts, and hell I'd gladly pay 20-25 a month per account if it was brought back to life lol.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
I am refering to the limited, narrow and linar path. The compimentary abilites and stacking math in a linar tree is so bland and uninivative. I have come to expect much more from Bioware.
I just expected a better level of mechanics with the budget and the instant hit IP. It feels more like a cash farm to me.
"Cash farm"? <rolls eyes> Of course they are "cash farming". Thats one of the major reasons for investment and development in this industry. ^^ But if you are attempting to compare Bioware with Blizzard, you will need much more evidence than some vague hand waving. Not to mention, Blizzard is doing VERY well for itself in terms of "cash farming". I suspect that most new companies would REALLY love to have even 10% of Blizzards sustained player base. ^^ Shall we wait for more hard evidence backed by some personal experience, before we declare that its time for pitch forks and torches?
I am sorry that you feel that it is a different. I feels like more of the same. The retoric they use to market it is nice, but it transilates to the same experance.
Although it does have light sabers, and voiceovers
It doesn't matter how you feel. It's still different than WoW mechanic wise and much similar to Age of Conan. Just saying.
Erm the AOC mechanic IS the WOW mechanic the only difference is where the talents are. Also TORs skill tree is nowhere near as deep as AOCs and much more linear like WOWs thats obvious from looking at it. TOR, WOW, AOC, LOTR, WAR some old same old. Besides I dont know why this is news to him anyway, the skill trees have been common knowledge for a long time now.
Why is it that every news bit from BW makes SWTOR more and more like WoW in space? Actually without space and now it seems without swimming also. SWTOR seems to be as much innovative as RIFT that I currently play and do not want to start all over again under another name...
I think it is because people are fixated on WoW and have become so allergic - or burnt out - towards MMO game mechanics that resemble WoW style / themepark MMO mechanics that even the slightest resemblance to it causes a fierce allergic reaction.
Aion, LotrO and AoC have lots of themepark features on a sortlike manner in common with WoW, LotrO even maybe the most, but I can't recall people being so nonstop allergic towards those features, calling 'WoW clone' or 'WoW with wings' or 'WoW with hobbits' or 'WoW with tits' all the time.
Maybe a number of MMO gamers weren't as burnt out towards MMO features yet back then, or I wasn't visiting this site yet back then, or maybe this is the gathering place of every MMO gamer who has become frustrated, burnt out, jaded or dissatisfied with MMO's. It seems other sites have it far less than this site.
As for SWTOR and 'every news making it more WoW in space': I think it all depends what you want to see or choose to ignore:
- I see talent trees that are seen in more themepark MMO's that SWTOR has in common with them, but to me, how the system works reminds me more of AoC than of WoW. 2 class-specific trees and 1 that you share with other classes of the same class type? That's typical of AoC.
- I see a far larger hybridisation and multi-role classes than in WoW, in this it also reminds me of AoC that had more focus on hybrid classes. Plus I read the last news and I see classes in SWTOR that can be tank and healer, which is pretty unique among themepark MMO's. I don't see priest be the main tank in WoW, neither sortlike classes in other themepark MMO's.
- the manner in which you start with a generic class and then opt for your specialised class after reaching a certain level, that's typical EQ2. Don't see that in WoW.
- ranged tank, a class you'll encounter in SWTOR, don't see that in most themepark MMO's including WoW.
- exploration incentives, like hard-to-reach places all over the worlds where special rewards await you if you manage to find and reach them, don't find that in most current AAA themepark MMO's.
- it has no swimming, that's definitely not like WoW, LotrO or AoC, but it does have that in common with Aion
- the crafting/harvesting is definitely not as seen in other MMO's, its more encompassing Crew Skills system is I think better than the crafting other (themepark) MMO's have.
- the cover system, certainly not something seen in other MMO's like WoW.
- synchronised combat animation, not seen in other MMO's.
- Companions that fight with you, craft for you, take part in quest cinematics and dialogues and change their stance towards you based upon the quest decisions you make, and that can compensate in dungeons when you're a man or class short, definitely not seen in WoW or any other MMORPG.
- branching questlines, where the decisions that you make can lead to fully different questlines to the extent that when you'd choose consistently the darkest decisions or consistently the most lightside decisions or consistently somewhere in the middle, then your class story experience will be very different in each of those 3 cases. AoC had cinematic cutscenes in part of its quests, but it didn't have that different decisions lead to different outcomes and different follow-up quests, even maybe 30 hours later in your questing.
- a playerhouse in the form of your playership that's more than fluff like in most other MMO's like LotrO or EQ2, it's the base of your command, where crafting is done and from where you travel to other planets and places in the galaxy. Certainly not like WoW where you don't even have player houses.
I can understand that if you're looking for sandbox features that SWTOR will disappoint you, and sure, SWTOR doesn't have the flashbang revolutionary innovations some might crave for, especially if those people don't care for companions or crafting or an improvement upon questing.
That doesn't mean though that the decision-bases story questing, companions in combat, classes that can be healer and tank, a crew skills system with its EVE/SWG like offline crafting and that continues even while you're doing other things ingame, the cover system and player ships don't make it different from other AAA MMO's including WoW.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
(A) linear character development. As you level you get 1 choice of a skil to train. At level 50 each character has the same skills
(B) option A plus alterative character tweaks like AA points, or trailts
(C) a skill tree system where you level and get a choice train one of several skills
that''s all folks
Anarchy Online had the best advancement system imho. Beats the shit out of all the other games I've played.
Good point actually.
And it's funny that a lot of the systems we see now were innovated with Anarchy, but in the simplest of terms possible.
AO was ahead of its time. Played it for a long bit and not sure what distracte... Oh wait, yeah, I recall. Still not any of the game mechanic's fault.
Yes on paper its great. Raise the skills that you want so you can create the character you want.
But in practice this means that you probably gimp yourself the first few times, because not all skills turn out to be that great as the description makes you believe. Add to that the many overhauls in that game and your build will be crap somewhere down the road. Which leads to a select few proven builds and of course most players dont want to gimp their toon and look up the better builds.
This already happened in the old days. The moment guides pop up, most ppl flock to these pages. The players that actually try weird combinations of skills are few. Especially if respec is a pain in such a game.
Anarchy online had an ok system. However, like with most systems, you were still tied with your choices, if you wanted to be most effective with your character.
AO skills trees were nice during the levellng phase, but very limiting during the end-game. Your class choice also limited your skills choices and classes seldom had more than 1-2 viable end-game builds, just like most MMOs.
It was supposed to be a skill-based MMO, but moved away from that after Notum Wars.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I mean let's be honest. If you didn't know that this was going to be a themepark in the style of, for example, WoW then you're deluding yourself. Bioware is taking what works for the general public and adding their own unique signature to it, story.
If you want innovation inside the themepark genre then GW2 could fill your needs. If you want innovation outside the themepark genre then ArcheAge might be promising. I've not seen Bioware claim to revolutionise the industry in anything other then it's story and voice-overs.
Now what did pleasantly surprise me is the Force Crush skill. It's a scaling slow that starts as a 90% slow and then decreases to a 10% slow over 5 seconds. Besides that it does some decent damage, with some extra damage at the end. Now we'll have to see how it plays out in-game but it sounds like a very balanced form of crowd control to me.
It doesn't take away any of your character control so you won't feel totally helpless. You can still react. One of your reactions, running away, is simply greatly reduced in effectiveness. It's got an 18s CD so it won't be up all the time.
This to me sounds like a really well designed ability. It's got some really cool effects like the degrading slow and the finishing damage that make it feel much more active instead of just comparing your gear scors to your enemies gear scores. It doesn't sound overpowered in anyway but it still sounds mighty usefull.
If other skills are designed much like this then I think we can see some pretty fun PvP in this game. It will still be mostly BG PvP and such but it will be good at that.
So this actually increases my hope. SWToR won't be the ultimate innovation in the industry, we already knew that. But it does sound like the devs are putting some good thoughts into things.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Yeah, I saw some neat ideas and class combo roles.
I kinda liked these skills:
The ‘Advanced Prototype’ skill tree, shared between both Bounty Hunter ACs, now features an upgrade to the base class flamethrower, which allows the player to rotate while using the ability.
The Gunslinger’s Sweeping Gunfire ability has been updated to allow the player to move the cone of fire while the ability is active. While this improves the feel of the attack quite a bit, it also introduces a bit of a risk factor for Smugglers who are not overly concerned with what they are hitting!
AoE skills that you can steer the direction of even after you have activated them is always a nice thought.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't care if they rip off the game mechanics of another game that works. I'm still waiting for someone to see the brilliance of the UO percentile skills system and copy that. I also don't understand why everyone expects innovation in mmos, WoW copied elements of EQ and DAoC and since then all mmos have borrowed elements that work. Mmos that have tried to go down a totally new path have failed miserably... Chronicles of Spellborn anyone?
In fact I'd like something familiar in a game, helps me get straight in and start playing. Setting, classes, community and gameplay mean more to be than game mechanics. Whatever the mechanics, if the gameplay is good I don't care.
It's a well used phrased but "If it broke, rip it off!"
I am sorry that you feel that it is a different. I feels like more of the same. The retoric they use to market it is nice, but it transilates to the same experance.
Although it does have light sabers, and voiceovers
How the heck can you say it "Feels the same"? You haven't even played the dang game lol. Looks are one thing mechanics are another.....this site drives me nuts with how much people whine or troll forums, just wait till it comes out and play it then make a comment on your feel of it or ask someone that is actually beta testing.
11 pages... a post made by someone who most likely did not read thoroughly through the Advanced Classes article or if he did he failed to grasp the mechanics behind it reached 11 pages full of fruitless debate.
Bioware was very straightforward about what TOR would be from day one. It's not like they promised one thing and are materializing another. There are people who like this approach and people who don't, that's how it is with every game MMO or not. Whining on these boards about the "so much hope" you had for TOR being something BW clearly stated it wouldn't is just hypocritical.
OMG OMG OMG ITS A TOTAL WOW CLONE THEREFORE ITS GOING TO SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh wait its not it has almost nothing to do with wow or wow mechanics
First off NO ONE CARES IF IT DOES OR DOESNT use wow trees, they work just as well, Galaxys had them and that game ROCKED!
Why do people ALWAYS compare every game to WOW? I'm sure that ToR will have part of alot of games that have come before it in the game, if it works and is good HELL YES use it, if it didnt DONT.
Again, people are just tired of the clone model.
The game will probably be great for a current gen title an have a nifty story and some quality acting.
Just would like to see someone put that much investment in game mechanics.
I get the whole sick of cloned games, to many are like WoW but Wow was like other games, it mirrored EQ and EQ2 alot, it had elements of UO in it, it was a mash up of a bunch of games.
These days games are all going to have somethings in them that are from games of the past, its just the new generation.
Look it like people having kids, those kids will have stuff from there parents but they are not there parents.
Not exactly.
Horrible anology and I hope it's never used again.
These aren't children of prior generations being birthed, these are pimples on old game's asses. "Look it's a lil' different, it's popped up, red, and infected and sometime it's itchy!"
There's room for something new.
Such as?
Originality?
Innovation?
Use of technical advancements?
A focus on gameplay?
You know, something other than the same tired crap.
There's tried and true, and then there's gone too the same well too many god damn times.
Why is it that every news bit from BW makes SWTOR more and more like WoW in space? Actually without space and now it seems without swimming also. SWTOR seems to be as much innovative as RIFT that I currently play and do not want to start all over again under another name...
I don't remember Rift having decent quests with moral decisions,companions,huge worlds,voice over for quests ,interesting combat.I remember Rift being a 0.5 wow ,a step back even compared to wow.
I am sorry that you feel that it is a different. I feels like more of the same. The retoric they use to market it is nice, but it transilates to the same experance.
Although it does have light sabers, and voiceovers
This is a baseless post from a lazy poster; put up some info as a list of skills is just that how they work play or contribute to the overall charachter is still up for debate unless you know better.
Back up this weak post or give up the feeling I get is that you haven't really thought about what you are saying here. It is just a vanilla throw away comment.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I am sorry that you feel that it is a different. I feels like more of the same. The retoric they use to market it is nice, but it transilates to the same experance.
Although it does have light sabers, and voiceovers
This is a baseless post from a lazy poster; put up some info as a list of skills is just that how they work play or contribute to the overall charachter is still up for debate unless you know better.
Back up this weak post or give up the feeling I get is that you haven't really thought about what you are saying here. It is just a vanilla throw away comment.
^^^ Agreed 100% ^^^
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
As of today they have released skill tree. It is a clone copy of the WoW skill tree. Where is the inovation that Biowear is known for? The last great hope for AAA titles has failed to create a new gaming experience.
Since when is Bioware known for innovation? They became big making RPGs that were based directly off of D&D, a system that had been around since the 70s. Even their post D&D stuff was hardly inventive - what exactly is new and inventive about Dragon Age?
What Bioware does do is release well polished, well made games with good story. Looking at a few screen shots of skill trees isnt going to tell you whether or not they were able to do this with SWTOR.
I dont think that anybody thought that they would take a radically different approach to character building. If thats what you are looking for, you should never have been thinking about SWTOR.
I have played the Bioware games and the game mechanics and the way the games played especially around the Baldurs Gat period moving from 2D Gold Box games. Was an impressive step forward I noticed this maybe you didn't.
You opinion is yours but being a good judge of these think I can't rate an opinion where millions of sales and customers would say otherwise. I don't think hard cash lies.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars making a robust and complex talent tree when most people will just use cookie cutter builds anyway? Cut out the middle man. That's what I say.
~Miles "Tails" Prower out! Catch me if you can!
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As of today they have released skill tree. It is a clone copy of the WoW skill tree. Where is the inovation that Biowear is known for? The last great hope for AAA titles has failed to create a new gaming experience.
Since when is Bioware known for innovation? They became big making RPGs that were based directly off of D&D, a system that had been around since the 70s. Even their post D&D stuff was hardly inventive - what exactly is new and inventive about Dragon Age?
What Bioware does do is release well polished, well made games with good story. Looking at a few screen shots of skill trees isnt going to tell you whether or not they were able to do this with SWTOR.
I dont think that anybody thought that they would take a radically different approach to character building. If thats what you are looking for, you should never have been thinking about SWTOR.
I have played the Bioware games and the game mechanics and the way the games played especially around the Baldurs Gat period moving from 2D Gold Box games. Was an impressive step forward I noticed this maybe you didn't.
You opinion is yours but being a good judge of these think I can't rate an opinion where millions of sales and customers would say otherwise. I don't think hard cash lies.
No offense Isane, while I normally agree with you and do agree with your first statement, that last one is a little off base. By your reasoning WoW would be innovative and to be honest I don't think they have ever done anything innovative. They simply copied what was working in other games over to their own. That is smart and definately saves time and resources on wasted projects that just end up getting scrapped, but it isn't innovative. They made and will continue to make millions off that recipe every day, but the money does not mean innovation.
By the same token, BioWare used a tried and true method of stats and game mechanics from "Dungeons and Dragons" for Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Both very good games, my favorites of all times to be honest, but they were not innovative there either. What they did an amazing job on with those games was creating a story that you wanted to finish and maybe even do again, with a different class, to see how different it would be.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
As of today they have released skill tree. It is a clone copy of the WoW skill tree. Where is the inovation that Biowear is known for? The last great hope for AAA titles has failed to create a new gaming experience.
It looks like a standard mmo skill tree to me. Now if you want to honor WoW as being the standard for the mmo genre so be it, but you'll be the one who looks either: A) inexperienced when it comes playing mmos or too easily impressed by what WoW has done.
A bit of clever code behind the skills and NPC AI code that allows for countering of skills and you have innovation. just because you can't see it you will feel it in the gameplay something you can't put you finger on will be different.
This thread is good for a laugh and bad for the OPs credibility so either way it's fun.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
As of today they have released skill tree. It is a clone copy of the WoW skill tree. Where is the inovation that Biowear is known for? The last great hope for AAA titles has failed to create a new gaming experience.
Since when is Bioware known for innovation? They became big making RPGs that were based directly off of D&D, a system that had been around since the 70s. Even their post D&D stuff was hardly inventive - what exactly is new and inventive about Dragon Age?
What Bioware does do is release well polished, well made games with good story. Looking at a few screen shots of skill trees isnt going to tell you whether or not they were able to do this with SWTOR.
I dont think that anybody thought that they would take a radically different approach to character building. If thats what you are looking for, you should never have been thinking about SWTOR.
I have played the Bioware games and the game mechanics and the way the games played especially around the Baldurs Gat period moving from 2D Gold Box games. Was an impressive step forward I noticed this maybe you didn't.
You opinion is yours but being a good judge of these think I can't rate an opinion where millions of sales and customers would say otherwise. I don't think hard cash lies.
No offense Isane, while I normally agree with you and do agree with your first statement, that last one is a little off base. By your reasoning WoW would be innovative and to be honest I don't think they have ever done anything innovative. They simply copied what was working in other games over to their own. That is smart and definately saves time and resources on wasted projects that just end up getting scrapped, but it isn't innovative. They made and will continue to make millions off that recipe every day, but the money does not mean innovation.
By the same token, BioWare used a tried and true method of stats and game mechanics from "Dungeons and Dragons" for Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Both very good games, my favorites of all times to be honest, but they were not innovative there either. What they did an amazing job on with those games was creating a story that you wanted to finish and maybe even do again, with a different class, to see how different it would be.
Don't worry i don't offend , and sometimes I am wrong
But I will let you into a little secret I hate WoW but;
It is innovative
It Makes Money
Is it a great Game no I do not think so. I personally think it's a genre killer.
Combination and effect does lead to innovation; Clever use of resources and Bioware and Blizzard have done both of these in different ways. It is a tricky subject and ard to express.
GMAN two years ago myself and three other people went out and bought 12 components that cost us around $4 million USD. We spent a lot of time clevery integrating these components. We are now on our fourth itteration of this solution and have recovered all of our costs for the 1st solution in 8 months. (Sadly we did this for someone not ourselves so we aren't that clever!!)
What we have done is very very innovative not my words ; but the technology is not ours the IP is. Groundbreaking yes but all we have really done is gone through a well thought out design cycle. The basics were all there the end customer does not see a lot of difference with the end product other than it works very very well. And costs them a fraction of what they used to pay.
The fact WoW have brought in millions of subscribers can be said to be very very innovative the spin exists to justify the statement. Sadly where they have innovated is the real question. And for me it isn't where i would like it as I want gameplaythat challenges me.
Bioware uses DnD nothing new , but the games were a joy to play the storyline was integrated ; the UI was a joy to use compared to what I had played before the combination is innovative. They have created a gaming model that brought in millions of new games no one else in western MMOs had ever done that before.
"The central meaning of innovation thus relates to renewal or improvement, with novelty being a consequence of this improvement"
And yes just because someone makes money does not make something innovative that was a lazy response but both the engine Bioware created to run the BG series and WoWs model of simple whack a mole will run on anything are innovative one a slick gaming engine never seen before the other an approach that lots try to copy and fail to.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
I am flabbergasted at the similarities! Flabbergasted I tell you!!
We all know that Everquest is a WoW clone as well! Ignore the fact that Everquest came out several years before WoW; SOE still stole everything from WoW rabblerabblerabble.
Everyone takes the best and develops what they can ontop of that. They steal they pilfer and they make their own. SWTOR is using those style trees because they work. They worked for SWG prior to that and they worked for D2 prior to that and they worked for D&D 30 years before that.
They are logical path progressions on skills and abilities. If you don't know why they are using it I just would suggest going and playing mortal online so you can have every skill at every time. Enjoy macroing running.
Comments
The only problem I see with AO's system is that it's unfriendly towards newer players. This is probably why the purely talent based system is so popular.
I mean, I would love to see AO's system used more, but I know that a lot of companies don't really want to risk money and effort on a system that will be hard to streamline or update. The talent based progression is probably much easier to balance and program than having to balance 80 or so skills individually and then trying to explain to players that Troopers need to focus in guns, while a consular needs to focus in Force powers on their giant skill list.
Not saying it's impossible, but it's unlikely that AO's system will ever be used again, unless Funcom pulls off a Miracle and remakes AO from the ground up, updating the games look and features in a way that can only be described as orgasmic.
But we're more likely to get hit by a Gamma ray burst from a distant exploding star than to see something like that happening. A man can dream. -,-
But, I digress. The system Bioware used is not surprising - It works, it's probably easy to program, and not only do most people like it, but most people are used to it, and many people new to the MMO genre can easily pick it up. This is why the whole Talent thing has kind of become a standard in MMORPGs.
Hell, WoW isn't even the first game to have this.
But I will say, the veriety of class roles in this game surprises me, and it seems much more lenient than wow's. It's pretty easy to tell what class roles are for each class in wow. A warrior can tank or DPS, a Rogue can DPS, a Priest can heal or DPS, and they only have 2 real hybrid classes (Druid and Paladin) that can explore all three aspects.
With the Old Republic, I was surprised to hear the Troopers were getting a healing spec, and now the Consular's are getting a tank spec. I had it in mind that Knights and Troopers were going to be THE tanks, but it seems like They're going to allow for a little more flexibility.
At the very least, each class can become proficient in something that isn't just DPS. I find that to be a good thing.
Groovy.
The learning curve and customization/option was what made it good. Soldiers could you pistols, submachine guns, or assault rifles and still be viable (for those of you who have not played, those guns all required different skills). You were not stuck in a box with only 1-2 paths. Or a soldier could choose to be evasion based w/ low hp, or go high hp and be a pseudo tank, or he could just push insane dps.
It is one of the reasons I like Rift, I can choose to be different things within one "calling". But, alas, Rift's progression vastly pales in comparison to AO's. If AO still had a good population, and an active dev team (promises and half ass screenshots do not count), I would never leave that game. Me and my wife had 4 active accounts, and hell I'd gladly pay 20-25 a month per account if it was brought back to life lol.
My god has horns.... nah, I don't think he is real either.
"Cash farm"? <rolls eyes> Of course they are "cash farming". Thats one of the major reasons for investment and development in this industry. ^^ But if you are attempting to compare Bioware with Blizzard, you will need much more evidence than some vague hand waving. Not to mention, Blizzard is doing VERY well for itself in terms of "cash farming". I suspect that most new companies would REALLY love to have even 10% of Blizzards sustained player base. ^^ Shall we wait for more hard evidence backed by some personal experience, before we declare that its time for pitch forks and torches?
Erm the AOC mechanic IS the WOW mechanic the only difference is where the talents are. Also TORs skill tree is nowhere near as deep as AOCs and much more linear like WOWs thats obvious from looking at it. TOR, WOW, AOC, LOTR, WAR some old same old. Besides I dont know why this is news to him anyway, the skill trees have been common knowledge for a long time now.
I think it is because people are fixated on WoW and have become so allergic - or burnt out - towards MMO game mechanics that resemble WoW style / themepark MMO mechanics that even the slightest resemblance to it causes a fierce allergic reaction.
Aion, LotrO and AoC have lots of themepark features on a sortlike manner in common with WoW, LotrO even maybe the most, but I can't recall people being so nonstop allergic towards those features, calling 'WoW clone' or 'WoW with wings' or 'WoW with hobbits' or 'WoW with tits' all the time.
Maybe a number of MMO gamers weren't as burnt out towards MMO features yet back then, or I wasn't visiting this site yet back then, or maybe this is the gathering place of every MMO gamer who has become frustrated, burnt out, jaded or dissatisfied with MMO's. It seems other sites have it far less than this site.
As for SWTOR and 'every news making it more WoW in space': I think it all depends what you want to see or choose to ignore:
- I see talent trees that are seen in more themepark MMO's that SWTOR has in common with them, but to me, how the system works reminds me more of AoC than of WoW. 2 class-specific trees and 1 that you share with other classes of the same class type? That's typical of AoC.
- I see a far larger hybridisation and multi-role classes than in WoW, in this it also reminds me of AoC that had more focus on hybrid classes. Plus I read the last news and I see classes in SWTOR that can be tank and healer, which is pretty unique among themepark MMO's. I don't see priest be the main tank in WoW, neither sortlike classes in other themepark MMO's.
- the manner in which you start with a generic class and then opt for your specialised class after reaching a certain level, that's typical EQ2. Don't see that in WoW.
- ranged tank, a class you'll encounter in SWTOR, don't see that in most themepark MMO's including WoW.
- exploration incentives, like hard-to-reach places all over the worlds where special rewards await you if you manage to find and reach them, don't find that in most current AAA themepark MMO's.
- it has no swimming, that's definitely not like WoW, LotrO or AoC, but it does have that in common with Aion
- the crafting/harvesting is definitely not as seen in other MMO's, its more encompassing Crew Skills system is I think better than the crafting other (themepark) MMO's have.
- the cover system, certainly not something seen in other MMO's like WoW.
- synchronised combat animation, not seen in other MMO's.
- Companions that fight with you, craft for you, take part in quest cinematics and dialogues and change their stance towards you based upon the quest decisions you make, and that can compensate in dungeons when you're a man or class short, definitely not seen in WoW or any other MMORPG.
- branching questlines, where the decisions that you make can lead to fully different questlines to the extent that when you'd choose consistently the darkest decisions or consistently the most lightside decisions or consistently somewhere in the middle, then your class story experience will be very different in each of those 3 cases. AoC had cinematic cutscenes in part of its quests, but it didn't have that different decisions lead to different outcomes and different follow-up quests, even maybe 30 hours later in your questing.
- a playerhouse in the form of your playership that's more than fluff like in most other MMO's like LotrO or EQ2, it's the base of your command, where crafting is done and from where you travel to other planets and places in the galaxy. Certainly not like WoW where you don't even have player houses.
I can understand that if you're looking for sandbox features that SWTOR will disappoint you, and sure, SWTOR doesn't have the flashbang revolutionary innovations some might crave for, especially if those people don't care for companions or crafting or an improvement upon questing.
That doesn't mean though that the decision-bases story questing, companions in combat, classes that can be healer and tank, a crew skills system with its EVE/SWG like offline crafting and that continues even while you're doing other things ingame, the cover system and player ships don't make it different from other AAA MMO's including WoW.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Are you saying not having talent trees will make the players fat?!
Yes on paper its great. Raise the skills that you want so you can create the character you want.
But in practice this means that you probably gimp yourself the first few times, because not all skills turn out to be that great as the description makes you believe. Add to that the many overhauls in that game and your build will be crap somewhere down the road. Which leads to a select few proven builds and of course most players dont want to gimp their toon and look up the better builds.
This already happened in the old days. The moment guides pop up, most ppl flock to these pages. The players that actually try weird combinations of skills are few. Especially if respec is a pain in such a game.
Anarchy online had an ok system. However, like with most systems, you were still tied with your choices, if you wanted to be most effective with your character.
AO skills trees were nice during the levellng phase, but very limiting during the end-game. Your class choice also limited your skills choices and classes seldom had more than 1-2 viable end-game builds, just like most MMOs.
It was supposed to be a skill-based MMO, but moved away from that after Notum Wars.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I'm actually pleasantly surprised.
I mean let's be honest. If you didn't know that this was going to be a themepark in the style of, for example, WoW then you're deluding yourself. Bioware is taking what works for the general public and adding their own unique signature to it, story.
If you want innovation inside the themepark genre then GW2 could fill your needs. If you want innovation outside the themepark genre then ArcheAge might be promising. I've not seen Bioware claim to revolutionise the industry in anything other then it's story and voice-overs.
Now what did pleasantly surprise me is the Force Crush skill. It's a scaling slow that starts as a 90% slow and then decreases to a 10% slow over 5 seconds. Besides that it does some decent damage, with some extra damage at the end. Now we'll have to see how it plays out in-game but it sounds like a very balanced form of crowd control to me.
It doesn't take away any of your character control so you won't feel totally helpless. You can still react. One of your reactions, running away, is simply greatly reduced in effectiveness. It's got an 18s CD so it won't be up all the time.
This to me sounds like a really well designed ability. It's got some really cool effects like the degrading slow and the finishing damage that make it feel much more active instead of just comparing your gear scors to your enemies gear scores. It doesn't sound overpowered in anyway but it still sounds mighty usefull.
If other skills are designed much like this then I think we can see some pretty fun PvP in this game. It will still be mostly BG PvP and such but it will be good at that.
So this actually increases my hope. SWToR won't be the ultimate innovation in the industry, we already knew that. But it does sound like the devs are putting some good thoughts into things.
We are the bunny.
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Yeah, I saw some neat ideas and class combo roles.
I kinda liked these skills:
The ‘Advanced Prototype’ skill tree, shared between both Bounty Hunter ACs, now features an upgrade to the base class flamethrower, which allows the player to rotate while using the ability.
The Gunslinger’s Sweeping Gunfire ability has been updated to allow the player to move the cone of fire while the ability is active. While this improves the feel of the attack quite a bit, it also introduces a bit of a risk factor for Smugglers who are not overly concerned with what they are hitting!
AoE skills that you can steer the direction of even after you have activated them is always a nice thought.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I don't care if they rip off the game mechanics of another game that works. I'm still waiting for someone to see the brilliance of the UO percentile skills system and copy that. I also don't understand why everyone expects innovation in mmos, WoW copied elements of EQ and DAoC and since then all mmos have borrowed elements that work. Mmos that have tried to go down a totally new path have failed miserably... Chronicles of Spellborn anyone?
In fact I'd like something familiar in a game, helps me get straight in and start playing. Setting, classes, community and gameplay mean more to be than game mechanics. Whatever the mechanics, if the gameplay is good I don't care.
It's a well used phrased but "If it broke, rip it off!"
How the heck can you say it "Feels the same"? You haven't even played the dang game lol. Looks are one thing mechanics are another.....this site drives me nuts with how much people whine or troll forums, just wait till it comes out and play it then make a comment on your feel of it or ask someone that is actually beta testing.
11 pages... a post made by someone who most likely did not read thoroughly through the Advanced Classes article or if he did he failed to grasp the mechanics behind it reached 11 pages full of fruitless debate.
Bioware was very straightforward about what TOR would be from day one. It's not like they promised one thing and are materializing another. There are people who like this approach and people who don't, that's how it is with every game MMO or not. Whining on these boards about the "so much hope" you had for TOR being something BW clearly stated it wouldn't is just hypocritical.
Such as?
I don't remember Rift having decent quests with moral decisions,companions,huge worlds,voice over for quests ,interesting combat.I remember Rift being a 0.5 wow ,a step back even compared to wow.
This is a baseless post from a lazy poster; put up some info as a list of skills is just that how they work play or contribute to the overall charachter is still up for debate unless you know better.
Back up this weak post or give up the feeling I get is that you haven't really thought about what you are saying here. It is just a vanilla throw away comment.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
^^^ Agreed 100% ^^^
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I have played the Bioware games and the game mechanics and the way the games played especially around the Baldurs Gat period moving from 2D Gold Box games. Was an impressive step forward I noticed this maybe you didn't.
You opinion is yours but being a good judge of these think I can't rate an opinion where millions of sales and customers would say otherwise. I don't think hard cash lies.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Why spend hundreds of thousands of dollars making a robust and complex talent tree when most people will just use cookie cutter builds anyway? Cut out the middle man. That's what I say.
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No offense Isane, while I normally agree with you and do agree with your first statement, that last one is a little off base. By your reasoning WoW would be innovative and to be honest I don't think they have ever done anything innovative. They simply copied what was working in other games over to their own. That is smart and definately saves time and resources on wasted projects that just end up getting scrapped, but it isn't innovative. They made and will continue to make millions off that recipe every day, but the money does not mean innovation.
By the same token, BioWare used a tried and true method of stats and game mechanics from "Dungeons and Dragons" for Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights. Both very good games, my favorites of all times to be honest, but they were not innovative there either. What they did an amazing job on with those games was creating a story that you wanted to finish and maybe even do again, with a different class, to see how different it would be.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
A bit of clever code behind the skills and NPC AI code that allows for countering of skills and you have innovation. just because you can't see it you will feel it in the gameplay something you can't put you finger on will be different.
This thread is good for a laugh and bad for the OPs credibility so either way it's fun.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Don't worry i don't offend , and sometimes I am wrong
But I will let you into a little secret I hate WoW but;
It is innovative
It Makes Money
Is it a great Game no I do not think so. I personally think it's a genre killer.
Combination and effect does lead to innovation; Clever use of resources and Bioware and Blizzard have done both of these in different ways. It is a tricky subject and ard to express.
GMAN two years ago myself and three other people went out and bought 12 components that cost us around $4 million USD. We spent a lot of time clevery integrating these components. We are now on our fourth itteration of this solution and have recovered all of our costs for the 1st solution in 8 months. (Sadly we did this for someone not ourselves so we aren't that clever!!)
What we have done is very very innovative not my words ; but the technology is not ours the IP is. Groundbreaking yes but all we have really done is gone through a well thought out design cycle. The basics were all there the end customer does not see a lot of difference with the end product other than it works very very well. And costs them a fraction of what they used to pay.
The fact WoW have brought in millions of subscribers can be said to be very very innovative the spin exists to justify the statement. Sadly where they have innovated is the real question. And for me it isn't where i would like it as I want gameplaythat challenges me.
Bioware uses DnD nothing new , but the games were a joy to play the storyline was integrated ; the UI was a joy to use compared to what I had played before the combination is innovative. They have created a gaming model that brought in millions of new games no one else in western MMOs had ever done that before.
"The central meaning of innovation thus relates to renewal or improvement, with novelty being a consequence of this improvement"
And yes just because someone makes money does not make something innovative that was a lazy response but both the engine Bioware created to run the BG series and WoWs model of simple whack a mole will run on anything are innovative one a slick gaming engine never seen before the other an approach that lots try to copy and fail to.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
We all know that Everquest is a WoW clone as well! Ignore the fact that Everquest came out several years before WoW; SOE still stole everything from WoW rabblerabblerabble.Everyone takes the best and develops what they can ontop of that. They steal they pilfer and they make their own. SWTOR is using those style trees because they work. They worked for SWG prior to that and they worked for D2 prior to that and they worked for D&D 30 years before that.
They are logical path progressions on skills and abilities. If you don't know why they are using it I just would suggest going and playing mortal online so you can have every skill at every time. Enjoy macroing running.