The MMO industry is pulling less and less people in, and current and upcoming games try to pull their players from the existing pool of players instead of looking for new blood that would stay faithful to their game.
It's not a trend that can last.
The MMO Industry is pulling more people in then ever before. If the information you've provided is true coud you post a link or some evidence? Because my research all seems to point in the same direction, MMO's are thriving.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Most people who have been playing MMORPG's for 14 years have seen the entire genra dwindle. None of these games today provide any kind of challange for the adult. They are mostly children's games.
Everquest, Ashron's Call & DAOC were not children games. So us "Oldtimers" are not disgruntled, were stupified why these kids keep paying for games that suck... only to see them go Free to Play, etc. Because their business model won't support their COE's vision of millions.
I love it when this gets mentioned. EQ, AC, and DAoC were no more adult games than WoW or Hello Kitty Island. If by adult you mean featureless optionless grindfests then you hit the nail on the head. Your next arguement will be that those games were harder and this is also false unless you are equating time investment to difficulty. Otherwise all it took was the time to kill 6.4trillion mobs to get to max level and another 4.5trillion to gather the materials for a craft or get that sweet random rare drop off 'x' mob. The only real thing that was that different was most all of the older games were ffa pvp or open world pvp.
The MMO industry is pulling less and less people in, and current and upcoming games try to pull their players from the existing pool of players instead of looking for new blood that would stay faithful to their game.
It's not a trend that can last.
The MMO Industry is pulling more people in then ever before. If the information you've provided is true coud you post a link or some evidence? Because my research all seems to point in the same direction, MMO's are thriving.
The MMO market base has been pretty suturated for the last few years.
WoW has been pulling in players in the past few years, but a lot of them get bored and wander back to non MMO games. Of the other MMOs they do try, they quickly get bored and wander back to WoW, because outside of WoW they're not an "MMO gamer". Which leads me to question if WoW should even be classified in the same group as other MMOs, because it's obviously designed to cater to a different crowd.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
Are you seriously trying to say that nothing has change and that we've merely outgrown games? Oh boy..read the rest of the thread, your quoted question has been answered a million times. I think you'd have to be braindead to pose a question like that.
The fact that the industry is not in decline isn't my opinion. It's a fact. Please learn to use search engines, or borrow some money to buy a few gaming magazines.
Just because you hear in forums that some game "failed" or you personally hate the new breed of games, doesn't mean the industry is "in decline" or failing. It simply isn't. It's bigger now than it has ever been. Period. A game with fewer than 1 million subs is not a "failure." 1 million is a number EQ, EQ2, DoAC, FFXI, AC, AC2, SWG, and many other "classics" NEVER saw.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
In what way?
WoW has more active subs than ever. More MMO titles are being released than ever before, and MMO budgets rival that of blockbuster movies.
"One great game and 10 crappy ones" applies to the entire gaming industry. Do you know how many failed FPS games there are? Thousands, I'm sure. Stop citing this. FPS games are doing great, and only about 5% of them are games that people actually play longer than a week.. The industry is fine, if not better than ever.
Most of you have just outgrown these games and are afraid to admit it. They no longer do it for you - failing to consider there is an entire generation playing these games for the first time and LOVING them.
People said the same exact this about the music industry when rap became popular. All the older people listening to classic rock stations swore music was ruined forever. Well, it wasn't.
The McDonald's arguement in posts above makes no sense either. Wether the content they provide is good or not, the industry is still booming whether you like it or not.
Soo many people seriously need to get a clue.
^ This
I love how we have veterans pulling up numbers, examples, supporting arguments, examples, and all these people trying to put a good face on the dark days of the genre say "Nuh uh, you've just outgrown games!" or "but there's so many more gamers now!" Way to debate guys, way to debate. If I didn't know better I'd say you were trolling, but you probably just don't understand.
I'd pull up numbers if I had to, but I don't. Whether an industry is in decline or not is not a matter of opinion. People refer to games "failing" that have more subs than EQ2, FFXI, or DAoC ever had. There are more people playing, more games being made, and more money being spent. It's not a debatable issue.
Games being repetetive, and copying each other, is the nature of the beast. Every genre does it. From MMORPGs, to FPS, to side scrollers. They all mimic each other. Sure, you can pull out a long list of crappy MMOs. You can also pull out a long list of any other type of game that is crappy, and cite 5-10 successful ones - does that mean the gaming industry as a whole is in decline? No.
Crunch your numbers to act like a big shot in the forums all you want. We all know how to use google. I also find it quite ironic that your retaliation to these messages is, simply put, "you guys are wrong." Talk about "debate" some more, please.
Oh, and about you're "veteran" comment.. I am one. Gaming for over 20 years and have seen em' all. I just have something called "real-world perspective." Ie, the opinions of me and those closest to me do not define the state of things as a whole.
Aside from the fact that each year since WoW, the frequency of 'failed' MMOs seems to grow by a geometric rate, while the amount of successes could probably be counted on one hand (if even that).
You have that exactly opposite. The number of failures I can count on one hand. Earth and Beyond, Asheron's Call 2, that car derby/car wars MMO, and a scant few others that I can't think of. So, one and a half hands.
The number of successes are in the dozens, and I won't bore you with a list as you can simply click on the game list of this site to find the titles of them all.
Hollywood makes 2-3 good movies a year out of hundreds, Is the movie industry "in decline?"
When Battlefield came out did people cry that it was a "Call of Duty" clone? Isn't Halo just a "Doom" clone? Is the FPS industry in decline?
From a content perspective, maybe you can make the case that the creativity is "in decline," which is something arguable. From an "industry" standpoint... sorry, no.
I don't think WoW is growing anymore, it's stable or even decreasing is what it looks like, nor do I think that there are other MMO's that aren't growing or stable in their numbers, Loktofeit gave enough examples, there are more if I'd take the time to look them up.
There's more MMO's over which MMO gamers are spread out, more choice and newer MMO's arriving faster on the scene.
Just wait till when WoW goes freemium......anyone who hasn't play with try to jump on the game at some point :P (when is the factor here obviously)
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
...other than people who base their argument on facts and data.
Which I have done, yet people seem to ignore for whatever reason. So basically, the argument you come to again is, "There's tons of people playing MMOs!" Well, aint that fantastic. Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old. Why have new MMOs done so badly, and how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition? The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
The problem with your argument is that you have arbitrarily defined some personal subset of the MMO market inside of which there are only two large and growing MMOs. You also claim that new MMOs are doing badly which is also false unles you create an arbitrary subset to make it true. Actually, there isn't a single sentence you have written in the above post that can be supported with any kind of real data.
Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old.
And what about DOFUS? League of Legends? Wizard 101? Puzzle PIrates? Combat Arms? AVA?None of those are Maple Story? None of those are MMORPGs LOTRO? DDO? Games that were doing so badly they had to go FTP to turn a profit...right. Besides, DDO isn't really an MMO, and LotRO hardly is.
how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition?
Just because you don't like the innovations of mainstream MMOs doesn't mean they don't exist. What innovations? Also, just because a guy or group of guys list pie-in-the-sky ideas on their 'features' page doesn't mean there is anything to indicate they can make a solid game from it. Are you saying that Darkfall, Xsyon, Perpetuum and Mortal Online would have been more successful if someone threw more money at them? Yup. Darkfall is already one of the only growing successful MMOs to launch in recent memory, and with more money it could get where its going even faster. Would more money have changed the core gameplay of these games? Darkfall's skill system wouldn't have people currently running at rocks and swimming at cliffs if they had more money? People don't run at rocks or swim unless they're morons. This isn't a game design flaw that can be fixed really. People do that with any skill based leveling. Some people tape their controlers down and level running in Oblivion. Guess Oblivion is a terrible game. Xsyon would have had a more thoughtout resource system and endgame?
The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
Again, if you want to ignore over 300+ titles and narrow 'the MMO industry' into a group of 2-3 dozen games then you are correct. Otherwise, your claim is simply baseless and, despite what you may believe in your heart, no amount of repeating it will suddenly make it true.
I use the classic definition of real MMORPGs. Big virtual world titles like EverQuest are MMORPGs. Things like Free Realms and League of Legends are not, stop trying to lump them in.
The MMO industry is pulling less and less people in, and current and upcoming games try to pull their players from the existing pool of players instead of looking for new blood that would stay faithful to their game.
It's not a trend that can last.
The MMO Industry is pulling more people in then ever before. If the information you've provided is true coud you post a link or some evidence? Because my research all seems to point in the same direction, MMO's are thriving.
More people in a market does not mean the market is thriving as a whole. Take a basics economics class then try to come back and debate. If MMORPGs were thriving then games wouldn't be trying to desperately hype up their games pre launch, then resign themselves to closing down one server after another as their game dwindles into nothingness.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
My point is that there are peaks and valleys. Yes there has been a decline, I'm not denying that fact, but such things happen. The industry is only getting better from here on out.
you forgot, that since WoW, there has been many more MMOs on the market compared to the so called golden days. Which means, you have a much greater chance to run into a Failure.
People will believe what they want to believe along with whatever suits their needs and ego. I'm done arguing this topic. Either way I'm going to stay positive. So all you negative haters can try to shoot down my love plane but I'm going to keep flying towards the numbers I know and the hope that lies ahead xD!
And if this MMO industry is "failing" as most of you seem to think then why stay on this forumn? Why follow an MMORPG forumn at all? Boggles my mind...
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
More people in a market does not mean the market is thriving as a whole. Take a basics economics class then try to come back and debate. If MMORPGs were thriving then games wouldn't be trying to desperately hype up their games pre launch, then resign themselves to closing down one server after another as their game dwindles into nothingness.
Actually it does. I don't understand what you mean by "desperately trying to hype up their games pre launch" as if there is something different being done than in the past.
MMO's, AAA MMO's, are in the 9 figures to make, the market spend is in line, in some cases (wait until we somehow find out what the SWKotoR market spend ends up as!) it's a Hollywood sized spend. Servers get shut down for reasons known to everyone, and in many cases even the teams launching the games. Publicly held companies have shareholders to answer to and quarterlies to deliver on, and that means in many cases NOT ONE MORE DOLLAR of spend to develop, get it out the door, fix it later. A tried and true method to 'failure'.
The other big issue, and I know because I sat in front of these very people over the past 6 years, is the VC and Capital markets idea of 'success' and 'failure'. Many people don't realize just how insanely profitable a game with 2-400k paid subscribers is, and can be.
WoW has skewed much of the financial worlds perspective on the MMO space as it relates to success/failure and subs. 12 million right? If you don't have millions you failed. Many fail to realize the number of paid subs is much closer to 5 million than 12, probably closer to 4, since the only true numbers as it relatest to paid subs comes from countries OTHER than China, Korea and the Far East.
People will believe what they want to believe along with whatever suits their needs and ego. I'm done arguing this topic. Either way I'm going to stay positive. So all you negative haters can try to shoot down my love plane but I'm going to keep flying towards the numbers I know and the hope that lies ahead xD!
And if this MMO industry is "failing" as most of you seem to think then why stay on this forumn? Why follow an MMORPG forumn at all? Boggles my mind...
Accctuallly
it is exactly because the current mmo playfield is shxt so people are here to keep talking about
How to fix *insert game title* if you can
THAT NEXT GAME IS SO GODLIKE
What would you like to see in future games
LFG
DCUO is gonna die
Ncsoft or SOE ruined the game.....again
The MMO industry is doing just fine
would any players rather be a forum warrior than playing the game they love?
But yes, there is hope in the future
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
So, considering all the disgruntled adn exhausted MMO gamers, the dozens of failing AAA MMOs, the companies that have gotten shut down, yeah I'd say the genre is in a horrible place.
Where do you geat your information from? As I've stated before just because you didn't like an MMO or you thought that it failed doesn't mean that it did. There's so much gossip going around this site about how MMO's have completely failed, but that's all it is, gossip. The fact is that MMO's are thriving and raking in more profit and popularity than ever before. You can't argue with numbers. Whether you like these new post WoW MMO's or not, the truth is that there doing great.
He meant 'the genre is in a horrible place for him', it's just opinion, nothing more weight to it than that.
Not really, I don't think anyone could make a solid argument that the genre is doing well, considering all the clones and rehashes we've gotten, and all the unsuccesful companies. The one argument (which has already been debunked) people keep falling back on is "But there's so many more people playing!" And well, if that were true, then why do many modern MMOs have equal or less subs than old MMOs? The stagnation is hurting everyone.
...other than people who base their argument on facts and data.
Which I have done, yet people seem to ignore for whatever reason. So basically, the argument you come to again is, "There's tons of people playing MMOs!" Well, aint that fantastic. Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old. Why have new MMOs done so badly, and how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition? The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
The problem with your argument is that you have arbitrarily defined some personal subset of the MMO market inside of which there are only two large and growing MMOs. You also claim that new MMOs are doing badly which is also false unles you create an arbitrary subset to make it true. Actually, there isn't a single sentence you have written in the above post that can be supported with any kind of real data.
Except, right now, there's only about 2 largely successful and growing MMOs on the entire market, and both are 6-8 years old.
And what about DOFUS? League of Legends? Wizard 101? Puzzle PIrates? Combat Arms? AVA?None of those are Maple Story? None of those are MMORPGs LOTRO? DDO? Games that were doing so badly they had to go FTP to turn a profit...right. Besides, DDO isn't really an MMO, and LotRO hardly is.
how come the only MMOs that ever have new ideas are the ones made by indie studios who don't have the funds to support their own ambition?
Just because you don't like the innovations of mainstream MMOs doesn't mean they don't exist. What innovations? Also, just because a guy or group of guys list pie-in-the-sky ideas on their 'features' page doesn't mean there is anything to indicate they can make a solid game from it. Are you saying that Darkfall, Xsyon, Perpetuum and Mortal Online would have been more successful if someone threw more money at them? Yup. Darkfall is already one of the only growing successful MMOs to launch in recent memory, and with more money it could get where its going even faster. Would more money have changed the core gameplay of these games? Darkfall's skill system wouldn't have people currently running at rocks and swimming at cliffs if they had more money? People don't run at rocks or swim unless they're morons. This isn't a game design flaw that can be fixed really. People do that with any skill based leveling. Some people tape their controlers down and level running in Oblivion. Guess Oblivion is a terrible game. Xsyon would have had a more thoughtout resource system and endgame?
The only people that may be happy right now with the MMO industry are those that like WoW, still enjoy playing WoW, and don't plan to leave WoW, because that's more or less all that's out there unless you want to slum with the indie MMOs.
Again, if you want to ignore over 300+ titles and narrow 'the MMO industry' into a group of 2-3 dozen games then you are correct. Otherwise, your claim is simply baseless and, despite what you may believe in your heart, no amount of repeating it will suddenly make it true.
I use the classic definition of real MMORPGs. Big virtual world titles like EverQuest are MMORPGs. Things like Free Realms and League of Legends are not, stop trying to lump them in.
Sorry to break it to you, but you cant pick and choose what is and isnt an MMORPG just because you dont like it, or it doesnt fit your narrow opinion of what an MMORPG is. Just about all of those game smentioned are in fact MMORPGs, theyre just not the TYPE of MMORPG that you like.
Different game shave different features and designs. That doesnt mean theyre not part of a genre. Its especially sa dthat you try to argue them not being MMORPGs because of not having huge open worlds... newsflash kid, most original RPGs (videogame, not P&P), the fathers of the entire MMORPG genre, were not huge open worlds either. They were nothing more world maps with towns and dungeons that you walked your avatar to, then entered the town or dungeon (aka instance) to play the real meat of the game. Even the fights themselves were little instances where your screen would usually flash and make noise, then suddenly youre in a little instanced battle with your party vs X number of enemies at a time.
Hell even the original P&P RPGs were technically just an instance. There was no huge open world in most cases, just your little dungeon crawl with your buddies. Just look at the granddaddy of all P&P RPGs, its right in the damn name... DUNGEONS & Dragons. Why on earth would a game made up of dungeons just like the original P&P, which is a) Online and b) playable by thousands at a time somehow not be considered an MMORPG?
Just because a few games, which you happened to like, follow a certain design, doesnt mean anything that doesnt follow that exact same path down to every little detail is not a part of the same genre.
Everquest is Everquest.
Ultima is Ultima.
Everquest is NOT all MMORPGs.
Ultima is NOT all MMORPGs.
You understan dthe differenc eyet between individual games vs an entire genre?
People will believe what they want to believe along with whatever suits their needs and ego. I'm done arguing this topic. Either way I'm going to stay positive. So all you negative haters can try to shoot down my love plane but I'm going to keep flying towards the numbers I know and the hope that lies ahead xD!
And if this MMO industry is "failing" as most of you seem to think then why stay on this forumn? Why follow an MMORPG forumn at all? Boggles my mind...
You put up a thread in the forum KNOWING you will get disagreements. Deal with it, or cut and run.
Currently, I'm of the opinion that even though the "numbers" of MMORPG gaming are at insanely high levels, I think the genre is rotten at its core.
#1 Those "numbers" that are attributed to MMORPG being "fine" are essentially belonging to ONE game: World of Warcraft. Consider that many titles, from small-time companies to big name releases, have failed trying to be either a WoW-Killer or trying real hard to be just like it. Has been going for years now. How is that good for the *genre* if ONE title, one company dominates everything? (Looks at long road of dead, dying MMORPGs of last 6.5 years). Ehh...
The next 2 are more of my personal tastes in MMORPG gameplay.
#2 MMORPGs are playing way to similiar to each other. I attribute it WoW's unprecedented success. I guess the logic of, "Those guys are doing really well, let's do what they do" is massively applied to massive multiplayer role playing game design. How many times in the last 5 or so years have you heard from players and game reviewers the phrase, "It plays just like WoW" or how similiar something is to WoW? Even vaunted BioWare with their upcoming SWTOR makes it blatantly clear they'd prefer to play in and stay in WoW's shadow. Variety is dead in the genre.
#3 I've grown increasingly tired of MMORPG game design that restricts my freedom of action in the game. Everything from less choices in developing my character, where I *must* go to progress (if it's not part of the quest, it's not effective development), and less and less ability for players to affect the game world.
Like I said, I think the genre is rotten in its core despite all the glitter of large numbers of players doing MMORPGs. But I do think the genre can get alot better. Not just number-wise, but in gameplay. I just think that it's been a dreadfully long, terrible drought in MMORPG gaming variety and freedom. But in the RPG world, I do think this genre still has oustanding potential in what it can do.
That's why I still stay current in MMORPG news despite no longer playing any of them right now (F2P, B2P, and even P2P).
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
People will believe what they want to believe along with whatever suits their needs and ego. I'm done arguing this topic. Either way I'm going to stay positive. So all you negative haters can try to shoot down my love plane but I'm going to keep flying towards the numbers I know and the hope that lies ahead xD!
And if this MMO industry is "failing" as most of you seem to think then why stay on this forumn? Why follow an MMORPG forumn at all? Boggles my mind...
Because this is the anti-forum?
Seriously, because we still have hope that the masses will finally come to their senses and see today's offerings for what they really are, utter tripe and will demand more engaging games once again.
Why does someone so positive about this industry hang around arguing with all us "haters?" Go play your fun MMO's and leave us to our misery.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
DoAC reached 250k subs in its hayday. EQ2 reached about 325k. By the standards of today, those two were failures too.
People in this forum evidently don't know the difference between success vs failure, and industry vs innovation.
Is the industry in decline? Absolutely not.
Is innovation weak? Yes, but it's not dead.. it's actually growing with GW2 and SWTOR on the horizon. Hell even STO was innovative. AoC was innovative with combat. Even WAR was innovative with PQs, and the Chapter story system. These types of minor innovations are the same as we see accross all gaming genres. MMOs are no different. One game is a runaway success, others copy and add features. This is how the industry works, always has been, in every style of game.
Is an MMO with 800k box sales and 150k active subs two years after release a failure? Not by a longshot. Is it a success story? Not particularly.
DOFUS has over 500k subs (more than EQ2). Aion is sporting over 3 million. WoW over 10 million. WAR has about 150k, AoC has about 150k (about like SWG). LotRo, although F2P has about 225k subs (close to what DoAC had). All of these are as well as or better than some of the top performing classic MMOs. I don't know RIFTs numbers but I'm sure they are up there.
Again, you can argue that MMOs don't have enough innovative ideas these days (which I still think is untrue), but you can in no way claim the industry is dying.
Anybody can google for sites like mmodata.net or a number of other sites to compare which MMOs are doing what in terms of subs and success, no reason to argue on your "theory" or make up numbers.
If you can't see the decline the industry is in then there's no point trying to explain it to you.
Smarter people than I will be sure to try though.
My point is that there are peaks and valleys. Yes there has been a decline, I'm not denying that fact, but such things happen. The industry is only getting better from here on out.
you forgot, that since WoW, there has been many more MMOs on the market compared to the so called golden days. Which means, you have a much greater chance to run into a Failure.
And by that logic, a much greater chance of coming up with something unique and successful. But so far all we've had is failure. Go ahead, name some big innovations of the past 4 years?
More people in a market does not mean the market is thriving as a whole. Take a basics economics class then try to come back and debate. If MMORPGs were thriving then games wouldn't be trying to desperately hype up their games pre launch, then resign themselves to closing down one server after another as their game dwindles into nothingness.
Actually it does. I don't understand what you mean by "desperately trying to hype up their games pre launch" as if there is something different being done than in the past.
MMO's, AAA MMO's, are in the 9 figures to make, the market spend is in line, in some cases (wait until we somehow find out what the SWKotoR market spend ends up as!) it's a Hollywood sized spend. Servers get shut down for reasons known to everyone, and in many cases even the teams launching the games. Publicly held companies have shareholders to answer to and quarterlies to deliver on, and that means in many cases NOT ONE MORE DOLLAR of spend to develop, get it out the door, fix it later. A tried and true method to 'failure'.
The other big issue, and I know because I sat in front of these very people over the past 6 years, is the VC and Capital markets idea of 'success' and 'failure'. Many people don't realize just how insanely profitable a game with 2-400k paid subscribers is, and can be.
WoW has skewed much of the financial worlds perspective on the MMO space as it relates to success/failure and subs. 12 million right? If you don't have millions you failed. Many fail to realize the number of paid subs is much closer to 5 million than 12, probably closer to 4, since the only true numbers as it relatest to paid subs comes from countries OTHER than China, Korea and the Far East.
You entirely missed the point. What I said is now MMOs launch then fade, and keep shrinking until there's almost no developers left working at the company or on the game, and almost no players playing it. In the past MMOs grew over time, not shrank.
People will believe what they want to believe along with whatever suits their needs and ego. I'm done arguing this topic. Either way I'm going to stay positive. So all you negative haters can try to shoot down my love plane but I'm going to keep flying towards the numbers I know and the hope that lies ahead xD!
And if this MMO industry is "failing" as most of you seem to think then why stay on this forumn? Why follow an MMORPG forumn at all? Boggles my mind...
You put up a thread in the forum KNOWING you will get disagreements. Deal with it, or cut and run.
Currently, I'm of the opinion that even though the "numbers" of MMORPG gaming are at insanely high levels, I think the genre is rotten at its core.
#1 Those "numbers" that are attributed to MMORPG being "fine" are essentially belonging to ONE game: World of Warcraft. Consider that many titles, from small-time companies to big name releases, have failed trying to be either a WoW-Killer or trying real hard to be just like it. Has been going for years now. How is that good for the *genre* if ONE title, one company dominates everything? (Looks at long road of dead, dying MMORPGs of last 6.5 years). Ehh...
The next 2 are more of my personal tastes in MMORPG gameplay.
#2 MMORPGs are playing way to similiar to each other. I attribute it WoW's unprecedented success. I guess the logic of, "Those guys are doing really well, let's do what they do" is massively applied to massive multiplayer role playing game design. How many times in the last 5 or so years have you heard from players and game reviewers the phrase, "It plays just like WoW" or how similiar something is to WoW? Even vaunted BioWare with their upcoming SWTOR makes it blatantly clear they'd prefer to play in and stay in WoW's shadow. Variety is dead in the genre.
#3 I've grown increasingly tired of MMORPG game design that restricts my freedom of action in the game. Everything from less choices in developing my character, where I *must* go to progress (if it's not part of the quest, it's not effective development), and less and less ability for players to affect the game world.
Like I said, I think the genre is rotten in its core despite all the glitter of large numbers of players doing MMORPGs. But I do think the genre can get alot better. Not just number-wise, but in gameplay. I just think that it's been a dreadfully long, terrible drought in MMORPG gaming variety and freedom. But in the RPG world, I do think this genre still has oustanding potential in what it can do.
That's why I still stay current in MMORPG news despite no longer playing any of them right now (F2P, B2P, and even P2P).
As for your #1 Again people will believe what suits their needs. Those numbers attributed to MMORPGs apply to the majority of post WoW MMORPG's. Please check your facts before posting false information. If you don't understand how or why think about this. WoW was extremely succesful, to a point where it's highly possible that no other MMO will ever reach the amount of revenue that WoW rakes in every year. They have monopolized the industry in that way. Therefor just because games do not reach WoWs Wal-Mart/Microsoft like success does not mean that said games (K-mart/Linux) have failed. Alot of people still play these post WoW MMORPGs. Some games have dropped significantly in subscribers/player base but most of them have remained steady/increasing. But I feel like I can say this until I'm blue in the face and you will never believe it because it doesn't suit what you want to believe, even when there is proof.
As for your #2 and #3 I'm sorry to hear that, still just your opinion though.
And who said I wasn't dealing with it. Really I'm just tired of posting the same thing over and over again in attempts to convince a people that won't listen to numbers and evidence (leave your opinion and bias's out of it). This site is one of the only sites I ever see statements like "The MMO Industry is failing".
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
DoAC reached 250k subs in its hayday. EQ2 reached about 325k. By the standards of today, those two were failures too.
Yes, EQ2 wasn't a very successful game, I thought everyone knew that. EQ1 reached 500k at its peak. By the standards of today, yesterday, any day, that's a great success, here's why.
Now listen up, because you WoW folks don't seem to understand this about old vs modern games.
Old games were made with dev teams of about 30-40 people, with a small budget. There were also fewer people in the MMO market. Hitting 250k subs is insanely successful considering the amount of investment put into the game.
Nowadays, when the marketing budget of modern MMOs is bigger than the entire budget of old MMOs, 350k subs is a collosal failure. WAR was made with about 100 devs and many millions of dollars. It's currently pulling about as many subs as DAoC had at its peak, if not less. That's a net loss. The result? Mythic has been downsized, merged with Bioware, and had all its secondary projects canceled. This story is not unheard of. More or less the same thing happened with Fallen Earth, Star Trek Online, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Tabula Rasa, the Aion US teams, almost every big name MMO to launch since WoW.
Old MMOs that were successful increased after launch.
The new standard is its fine to merge servers because devs have resigned themselves to the fact that their games can only go in a downward spiral after launch.
People will believe what they want to believe along with whatever suits their needs and ego. I'm done arguing this topic. Either way I'm going to stay positive. So all you negative haters can try to shoot down my love plane but I'm going to keep flying towards the numbers I know and the hope that lies ahead xD!
And if this MMO industry is "failing" as most of you seem to think then why stay on this forumn? Why follow an MMORPG forumn at all? Boggles my mind...
Because this is the anti-forum?
Seriously, because we still have hope that the masses will finally come to their senses and see today's offerings for what they really are, utter tripe and will demand more engaging games once again.
Why does someone so positive about this industry hang around arguing with all us "haters?" Go play your fun MMO's and leave us to our misery.
Have you ever considered that it's the "masses" for a reason? Why do so many people seem so satisfied? And please don't pull the generation card or the people don't know what to look for card. You already stated that you hope "the masses will finaly come to their senses", but doesn't that seem like a whole lot of clueless people.
I'm assuming that you've been in the MMO gaming industry for quite some time (maybe even since it's birth). Therefor you obviously have alot of experience with MMO's, I'm not denying that. So let me throw this silly scenario your way, when I eat peanut butter cookies, I get super excited because they taste so good, so I eat a whole lot of them! Unfourtunately, they just start to get old after a while. No matter what brand of peanut butter cookie I try their all just the same with subtle differences in ingredients. However, when a new brand of peanut butter cookies come out I get super excited and go try them, but then I discover that their still just peanut butter cookies and I'm still pretty tired of them. So eventually I just come to realization that maybe I'm just a little bit burnt out on peanut butter cookies in general. Well MMO's are my peanut butter cookie, but the difference between me and you is that I still like my peanut butter cookies because I just havn't had enough of them yet. So no matter what you tell me or the "masses" it really doesn't matter because we're all still enjoying our cookies.
[EDIT] GW2 = peanut butter cookies with chocolate chip, OH SHIT SON!
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
For every great game there are 10 games of crap that come before it. Greatness is acheived through the process of failure. So of course there are going to be games that are complete crap and watered down clones of other games that were even more crap. It's always been this way, there's nothing new about this. So why are all these gamer's suddenly acting like the MMO industry is going to hell in a hand basket when it's doing exactly what it has been doing for the past decade.
Last year was bad for MMO's, it happens. This year is looking great for MMO's, with games like GW2, ArcheAge, Secret World and countless F2P's that look like they'll actually compete with sub games. Games take time to evolve and become what us gamers want. So stop acting like MMO's were "ruined by WoW" and will never recover from this non-existent tragic state that your putting them in.
Keep in mind that MMORPG's have become ten times more popular than they ever have been. Yet there's all these veteran old time gamer's on this site that complain about how watered down and simple todays games are. Well here's the problem, things just aren't as simple as they used to be. Back in the day PvP could get away with being embalanced, death penalties could be harsh, grouping was much easier, and a good community was alot easier to maintain especially when your playerbase was less than half of what it is in today's average MMORPG. Developers didn't have to worry about pleasing millions of gamers because MMO's simply weren't as popular then. Thing's aren't so simple and many MMO's are actually doing alot better than this sites "veteran" community gives them credit for.
I think trying to argue that the industry is better or worse now than it was when MMO's first came out is pointless because nobody wins that argument except in their own mind. I am also reading your post to mean that in order to please millions of customers game companies need to simplify their games to please the masses. I think that's what a lot of people come here and complain about. In the end though the longing for the games of yesterday is a lot like an addiction to drugs. Its the constant seeking of that first high and the tendency to romanticize it to be way better than it was. In the end, I've accepted that there isn't likely to be a game that is the same as SWG was for me. It isn't because all games suck and SWG was the best MMO ever. Its the best to me because everything I did in that game was brand new. Everything else will never be the same. As such, I don't find the same enjoyment in this genre that I used to and the farther and farther games move from something like SWG the more disappointed I get with the industry as a whole.
P.S. If a game sucks it sucks and some of the MMO's that have been released over the last 2 years just suck. Lets hope that trend ends and fast.
#1 Those "numbers" that are attributed to MMORPG being "fine" are essentially belonging to ONE game: World of Warcraft. Consider that many titles, from small-time companies to big name releases, have failed trying to be either a WoW-Killer or trying real hard to be just like it. Has been going for years now. How is that good for the *genre* if ONE title, one company dominates everything? (Looks at long road of dead, dying MMORPGs of last 6.5 years). Ehh...
Gosh .. can people at least CHECK THE FACTS first before opening their mouth?
Last time WOW releases their numbers, it has roughly 4-5M in Europe+US. So WOW has less than 10% of the US MMO players.
Total US MMO revenue: $2.28B. If WOW has 3M users in the US. The yearly revenue is $15x12x3M = $540M. Even if you add 3M copies of Catalysm, that is roughly 660M ... less than 1/3 of the total US MMO revenue.
If you don't think a $2.28B market with 47.5M customers is "fine". No market is "fine".
Comments
The MMO Industry is pulling more people in then ever before. If the information you've provided is true coud you post a link or some evidence? Because my research all seems to point in the same direction, MMO's are thriving.
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I love it when this gets mentioned. EQ, AC, and DAoC were no more adult games than WoW or Hello Kitty Island. If by adult you mean featureless optionless grindfests then you hit the nail on the head. Your next arguement will be that those games were harder and this is also false unless you are equating time investment to difficulty. Otherwise all it took was the time to kill 6.4trillion mobs to get to max level and another 4.5trillion to gather the materials for a craft or get that sweet random rare drop off 'x' mob. The only real thing that was that different was most all of the older games were ffa pvp or open world pvp.
The MMO market base has been pretty suturated for the last few years.
WoW has been pulling in players in the past few years, but a lot of them get bored and wander back to non MMO games. Of the other MMOs they do try, they quickly get bored and wander back to WoW, because outside of WoW they're not an "MMO gamer". Which leads me to question if WoW should even be classified in the same group as other MMOs, because it's obviously designed to cater to a different crowd.
The fact that the industry is not in decline isn't my opinion. It's a fact. Please learn to use search engines, or borrow some money to buy a few gaming magazines.
Just because you hear in forums that some game "failed" or you personally hate the new breed of games, doesn't mean the industry is "in decline" or failing. It simply isn't. It's bigger now than it has ever been. Period. A game with fewer than 1 million subs is not a "failure." 1 million is a number EQ, EQ2, DoAC, FFXI, AC, AC2, SWG, and many other "classics" NEVER saw.
I'd pull up numbers if I had to, but I don't. Whether an industry is in decline or not is not a matter of opinion. People refer to games "failing" that have more subs than EQ2, FFXI, or DAoC ever had. There are more people playing, more games being made, and more money being spent. It's not a debatable issue.
Games being repetetive, and copying each other, is the nature of the beast. Every genre does it. From MMORPGs, to FPS, to side scrollers. They all mimic each other. Sure, you can pull out a long list of crappy MMOs. You can also pull out a long list of any other type of game that is crappy, and cite 5-10 successful ones - does that mean the gaming industry as a whole is in decline? No.
Crunch your numbers to act like a big shot in the forums all you want. We all know how to use google. I also find it quite ironic that your retaliation to these messages is, simply put, "you guys are wrong." Talk about "debate" some more, please.
Oh, and about you're "veteran" comment.. I am one. Gaming for over 20 years and have seen em' all. I just have something called "real-world perspective." Ie, the opinions of me and those closest to me do not define the state of things as a whole.
You have that exactly opposite. The number of failures I can count on one hand. Earth and Beyond, Asheron's Call 2, that car derby/car wars MMO, and a scant few others that I can't think of. So, one and a half hands.
The number of successes are in the dozens, and I won't bore you with a list as you can simply click on the game list of this site to find the titles of them all.
Hollywood makes 2-3 good movies a year out of hundreds, Is the movie industry "in decline?"
When Battlefield came out did people cry that it was a "Call of Duty" clone? Isn't Halo just a "Doom" clone? Is the FPS industry in decline?
From a content perspective, maybe you can make the case that the creativity is "in decline," which is something arguable. From an "industry" standpoint... sorry, no.
Just wait till when WoW goes freemium......anyone who hasn't play with try to jump on the game at some point :P (when is the factor here obviously)
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
I use the classic definition of real MMORPGs. Big virtual world titles like EverQuest are MMORPGs. Things like Free Realms and League of Legends are not, stop trying to lump them in.
More people in a market does not mean the market is thriving as a whole. Take a basics economics class then try to come back and debate. If MMORPGs were thriving then games wouldn't be trying to desperately hype up their games pre launch, then resign themselves to closing down one server after another as their game dwindles into nothingness.
you forgot, that since WoW, there has been many more MMOs on the market compared to the so called golden days. Which means, you have a much greater chance to run into a Failure.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
People will believe what they want to believe along with whatever suits their needs and ego. I'm done arguing this topic. Either way I'm going to stay positive. So all you negative haters can try to shoot down my love plane but I'm going to keep flying towards the numbers I know and the hope that lies ahead xD!
And if this MMO industry is "failing" as most of you seem to think then why stay on this forumn? Why follow an MMORPG forumn at all? Boggles my mind...
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Actually it does. I don't understand what you mean by "desperately trying to hype up their games pre launch" as if there is something different being done than in the past.
MMO's, AAA MMO's, are in the 9 figures to make, the market spend is in line, in some cases (wait until we somehow find out what the SWKotoR market spend ends up as!) it's a Hollywood sized spend. Servers get shut down for reasons known to everyone, and in many cases even the teams launching the games. Publicly held companies have shareholders to answer to and quarterlies to deliver on, and that means in many cases NOT ONE MORE DOLLAR of spend to develop, get it out the door, fix it later. A tried and true method to 'failure'.
The other big issue, and I know because I sat in front of these very people over the past 6 years, is the VC and Capital markets idea of 'success' and 'failure'. Many people don't realize just how insanely profitable a game with 2-400k paid subscribers is, and can be.
WoW has skewed much of the financial worlds perspective on the MMO space as it relates to success/failure and subs. 12 million right? If you don't have millions you failed. Many fail to realize the number of paid subs is much closer to 5 million than 12, probably closer to 4, since the only true numbers as it relatest to paid subs comes from countries OTHER than China, Korea and the Far East.
Curt Schilling
Chairman, Founder, 38 Studios
Geek
Accctuallly
it is exactly because the current mmo playfield is shxt so people are here to keep talking about
How to fix *insert game title* if you can
THAT NEXT GAME IS SO GODLIKE
What would you like to see in future games
LFG
DCUO is gonna die
Ncsoft or SOE ruined the game.....again
The MMO industry is doing just fine
would any players rather be a forum warrior than playing the game they love?
But yes, there is hope in the future
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Sorry to break it to you, but you cant pick and choose what is and isnt an MMORPG just because you dont like it, or it doesnt fit your narrow opinion of what an MMORPG is. Just about all of those game smentioned are in fact MMORPGs, theyre just not the TYPE of MMORPG that you like.
Different game shave different features and designs. That doesnt mean theyre not part of a genre. Its especially sa dthat you try to argue them not being MMORPGs because of not having huge open worlds... newsflash kid, most original RPGs (videogame, not P&P), the fathers of the entire MMORPG genre, were not huge open worlds either. They were nothing more world maps with towns and dungeons that you walked your avatar to, then entered the town or dungeon (aka instance) to play the real meat of the game. Even the fights themselves were little instances where your screen would usually flash and make noise, then suddenly youre in a little instanced battle with your party vs X number of enemies at a time.
Hell even the original P&P RPGs were technically just an instance. There was no huge open world in most cases, just your little dungeon crawl with your buddies. Just look at the granddaddy of all P&P RPGs, its right in the damn name... DUNGEONS & Dragons. Why on earth would a game made up of dungeons just like the original P&P, which is a) Online and b) playable by thousands at a time somehow not be considered an MMORPG?
Just because a few games, which you happened to like, follow a certain design, doesnt mean anything that doesnt follow that exact same path down to every little detail is not a part of the same genre.
Everquest is Everquest.
Ultima is Ultima.
Everquest is NOT all MMORPGs.
Ultima is NOT all MMORPGs.
You understan dthe differenc eyet between individual games vs an entire genre?
You put up a thread in the forum KNOWING you will get disagreements. Deal with it, or cut and run.
Currently, I'm of the opinion that even though the "numbers" of MMORPG gaming are at insanely high levels, I think the genre is rotten at its core.
#1 Those "numbers" that are attributed to MMORPG being "fine" are essentially belonging to ONE game: World of Warcraft. Consider that many titles, from small-time companies to big name releases, have failed trying to be either a WoW-Killer or trying real hard to be just like it. Has been going for years now. How is that good for the *genre* if ONE title, one company dominates everything? (Looks at long road of dead, dying MMORPGs of last 6.5 years). Ehh...
The next 2 are more of my personal tastes in MMORPG gameplay.
#2 MMORPGs are playing way to similiar to each other. I attribute it WoW's unprecedented success. I guess the logic of, "Those guys are doing really well, let's do what they do" is massively applied to massive multiplayer role playing game design. How many times in the last 5 or so years have you heard from players and game reviewers the phrase, "It plays just like WoW" or how similiar something is to WoW? Even vaunted BioWare with their upcoming SWTOR makes it blatantly clear they'd prefer to play in and stay in WoW's shadow. Variety is dead in the genre.
#3 I've grown increasingly tired of MMORPG game design that restricts my freedom of action in the game. Everything from less choices in developing my character, where I *must* go to progress (if it's not part of the quest, it's not effective development), and less and less ability for players to affect the game world.
Like I said, I think the genre is rotten in its core despite all the glitter of large numbers of players doing MMORPGs. But I do think the genre can get alot better. Not just number-wise, but in gameplay. I just think that it's been a dreadfully long, terrible drought in MMORPG gaming variety and freedom. But in the RPG world, I do think this genre still has oustanding potential in what it can do.
That's why I still stay current in MMORPG news despite no longer playing any of them right now (F2P, B2P, and even P2P).
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
Because this is the anti-forum?
Seriously, because we still have hope that the masses will finally come to their senses and see today's offerings for what they really are, utter tripe and will demand more engaging games once again.
Why does someone so positive about this industry hang around arguing with all us "haters?" Go play your fun MMO's and leave us to our misery.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
DoAC reached 250k subs in its hayday. EQ2 reached about 325k. By the standards of today, those two were failures too.
People in this forum evidently don't know the difference between success vs failure, and industry vs innovation.
Is the industry in decline? Absolutely not.
Is innovation weak? Yes, but it's not dead.. it's actually growing with GW2 and SWTOR on the horizon. Hell even STO was innovative. AoC was innovative with combat. Even WAR was innovative with PQs, and the Chapter story system. These types of minor innovations are the same as we see accross all gaming genres. MMOs are no different. One game is a runaway success, others copy and add features. This is how the industry works, always has been, in every style of game.
Is an MMO with 800k box sales and 150k active subs two years after release a failure? Not by a longshot. Is it a success story? Not particularly.
DOFUS has over 500k subs (more than EQ2). Aion is sporting over 3 million. WoW over 10 million. WAR has about 150k, AoC has about 150k (about like SWG). LotRo, although F2P has about 225k subs (close to what DoAC had). All of these are as well as or better than some of the top performing classic MMOs. I don't know RIFTs numbers but I'm sure they are up there.
Again, you can argue that MMOs don't have enough innovative ideas these days (which I still think is untrue), but you can in no way claim the industry is dying.
Anybody can google for sites like mmodata.net or a number of other sites to compare which MMOs are doing what in terms of subs and success, no reason to argue on your "theory" or make up numbers.
And by that logic, a much greater chance of coming up with something unique and successful. But so far all we've had is failure. Go ahead, name some big innovations of the past 4 years?
You entirely missed the point. What I said is now MMOs launch then fade, and keep shrinking until there's almost no developers left working at the company or on the game, and almost no players playing it. In the past MMOs grew over time, not shrank.
As for your #1 Again people will believe what suits their needs. Those numbers attributed to MMORPGs apply to the majority of post WoW MMORPG's. Please check your facts before posting false information. If you don't understand how or why think about this. WoW was extremely succesful, to a point where it's highly possible that no other MMO will ever reach the amount of revenue that WoW rakes in every year. They have monopolized the industry in that way. Therefor just because games do not reach WoWs Wal-Mart/Microsoft like success does not mean that said games (K-mart/Linux) have failed. Alot of people still play these post WoW MMORPGs. Some games have dropped significantly in subscribers/player base but most of them have remained steady/increasing. But I feel like I can say this until I'm blue in the face and you will never believe it because it doesn't suit what you want to believe, even when there is proof.
As for your #2 and #3 I'm sorry to hear that, still just your opinion though.
And who said I wasn't dealing with it. Really I'm just tired of posting the same thing over and over again in attempts to convince a people that won't listen to numbers and evidence (leave your opinion and bias's out of it). This site is one of the only sites I ever see statements like "The MMO Industry is failing".
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
Yes, EQ2 wasn't a very successful game, I thought everyone knew that. EQ1 reached 500k at its peak. By the standards of today, yesterday, any day, that's a great success, here's why.
Now listen up, because you WoW folks don't seem to understand this about old vs modern games.
Old games were made with dev teams of about 30-40 people, with a small budget. There were also fewer people in the MMO market. Hitting 250k subs is insanely successful considering the amount of investment put into the game.
Nowadays, when the marketing budget of modern MMOs is bigger than the entire budget of old MMOs, 350k subs is a collosal failure. WAR was made with about 100 devs and many millions of dollars. It's currently pulling about as many subs as DAoC had at its peak, if not less. That's a net loss. The result? Mythic has been downsized, merged with Bioware, and had all its secondary projects canceled. This story is not unheard of. More or less the same thing happened with Fallen Earth, Star Trek Online, Vanguard, Age of Conan, Dungeons and Dragons Online, Tabula Rasa, the Aion US teams, almost every big name MMO to launch since WoW.
Old MMOs that were successful increased after launch.
The new standard is its fine to merge servers because devs have resigned themselves to the fact that their games can only go in a downward spiral after launch.
Have you ever considered that it's the "masses" for a reason? Why do so many people seem so satisfied? And please don't pull the generation card or the people don't know what to look for card. You already stated that you hope "the masses will finaly come to their senses", but doesn't that seem like a whole lot of clueless people.
I'm assuming that you've been in the MMO gaming industry for quite some time (maybe even since it's birth). Therefor you obviously have alot of experience with MMO's, I'm not denying that. So let me throw this silly scenario your way, when I eat peanut butter cookies, I get super excited because they taste so good, so I eat a whole lot of them! Unfourtunately, they just start to get old after a while. No matter what brand of peanut butter cookie I try their all just the same with subtle differences in ingredients. However, when a new brand of peanut butter cookies come out I get super excited and go try them, but then I discover that their still just peanut butter cookies and I'm still pretty tired of them. So eventually I just come to realization that maybe I'm just a little bit burnt out on peanut butter cookies in general. Well MMO's are my peanut butter cookie, but the difference between me and you is that I still like my peanut butter cookies because I just havn't had enough of them yet. So no matter what you tell me or the "masses" it really doesn't matter because we're all still enjoying our cookies.
[EDIT] GW2 = peanut butter cookies with chocolate chip, OH SHIT SON!
Most people go through life pretending to be a boss. I go through life pretending I'm not.
I think trying to argue that the industry is better or worse now than it was when MMO's first came out is pointless because nobody wins that argument except in their own mind. I am also reading your post to mean that in order to please millions of customers game companies need to simplify their games to please the masses. I think that's what a lot of people come here and complain about. In the end though the longing for the games of yesterday is a lot like an addiction to drugs. Its the constant seeking of that first high and the tendency to romanticize it to be way better than it was. In the end, I've accepted that there isn't likely to be a game that is the same as SWG was for me. It isn't because all games suck and SWG was the best MMO ever. Its the best to me because everything I did in that game was brand new. Everything else will never be the same. As such, I don't find the same enjoyment in this genre that I used to and the farther and farther games move from something like SWG the more disappointed I get with the industry as a whole.
P.S. If a game sucks it sucks and some of the MMO's that have been released over the last 2 years just suck. Lets hope that trend ends and fast.
Gosh .. can people at least CHECK THE FACTS first before opening their mouth?
Here is a MMO market report of 2010. http://www.newzoo.com/ENG/1570-MMO_Market_Report.html
If you go down to the US numbers ...
Number of US MMO players: 47.5M
Last time WOW releases their numbers, it has roughly 4-5M in Europe+US. So WOW has less than 10% of the US MMO players.
Total US MMO revenue: $2.28B. If WOW has 3M users in the US. The yearly revenue is $15x12x3M = $540M. Even if you add 3M copies of Catalysm, that is roughly 660M ... less than 1/3 of the total US MMO revenue.
If you don't think a $2.28B market with 47.5M customers is "fine". No market is "fine".
BTW, 74% of the players ONLY play F2P MMOs.