You're poll is faulty. By adding a sentence after the yes or no answer you in effect put words in peoples mouths. Let them say yes or no and give their own reasons. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone else has already stated that and if so I add my voice to theirs.
People who think they should be able to just jump into a battleship and outfit it with the best mods in order to compete in pvp in Eve don't understand Eve at all. Anyone can participate in pvp in Eve, whether they just started or not. Why? Because Eve in general does not have one on one style of pvp. It's very much group oriented and anyone, no matter thier skill level, can contribute to a group. If you want to participate in pvp then join a pvp corp and participate, nobody will stop you. There are no limits to fleet size, so there's no reason a corp might tell you that you can't join their fleet, not even using an excuse such as a lack of skill points.
Reading comprehension...? Who said anything about a new player being able to just jump right into a BS anywhere in this thread?
I was exaggerating your point, sue me. The arguments are all about the same thing, and the point has been argued hundreds if not thousands of times before, being able to compete with veteran players as quickly as possible. I guess you can argue the point as much as you like as long as you recognize that your arguments won't budge CCP so much as an inch, nor change the minds of much of the community.
No you are right...why should new players even care to give the game a shot. With attitudes like yours they have all ready lost $14.99 a month because you as a vet think new players are not worth CCP givng them some incentive to stick around. That is why in my next blog I will warn new players to not waste their time and effort and money on a game that is not forgiving...in fact, of all the games currently on the market EVE is the least noob friendly game. I have said it in the past and I'll say it again, and repeatedly.
People have been saying that about EVE since EVE was launched. But yet those who know what they are getting into, do some research and put forth both effort and thought are rewarded. While those who want to catch up and thats all they are concerned with run away blaming the vets. Heres a fact.....you can never ever catch some random number in a game that uses time as a means of progression. Again let me say it...Never. So you accelerate gain...to what? for how long? how much? So scream from your blog all you like but it will change nothing due to the game design that exists.
Also just because you hand a noob a BC with all the trimmings does not mean they know how to use it properly. Kinda like giving a toddler a car and saying...here son have fun in Nascar!
Hehehe...once again let me repeat this.
NOBODY IS SAYING GIVE ANYONE ANYTHING. THEY WOULD STILL HAVE TO EARN IT OVER TIME - JUST LESS TIME, BUT IT WOULD STILL TAKE TIME!
Sheesh...some of you think some of us are advocating just giving a new player 10 mil SP. We never said that and that would not work. What we're proposing is allowing for a player that has less than 10mil SP to gain SP a little faster than it is now so that they can "get up to speed" faster. It is not going to damage the game in the least - in fact we have provided good arguments that say just the opposite. It'll get players into skills faster that are more on a level that will allow them to go into null-sec quicker. Vet's are always saying that they wish more people would play in null-sec...well guess what, under the current system that is never going to happen. That is why 75%, or so(maybe it is 65%), of the player base never goes into low-sec of null-sec! Did you ever think of that.
65-75% of what?
Whole of EVE population or of the Empire/low sec populaltion EVE.
Either way I hardly think that we would ever see 75% of any of those two (1st whole eve pop or 2nd empire pop) go join nullsec if that had the chance to accelerate their SP up to 10M.
That would leave empire space pretty dry would it not?
You have a multitude of reasons of not being in nullsec.
Lacking corp/alliance leadeship, no interest in nullsec, highsec mission alt, trade alt... the list is pretty long. People don't really have the interest or motivation that holding sov brings gamewise. Tired of politics, tired of CTA (alarmclock CTA )
The reasons are there and they are not only spelt skill points.People not joining nullsec because they feel lacking of SP is a pretty easy scape goat.
I believe that those that wants to go to nullsec ends up there because of motivation more than having any numbers of SP or for that matter the time it took to get them. What would these people you talk about do when they are getting faced with a wish for trainging to a new fleet doctrine? Biomass their current character and grind a new one?
Oh, I have not forget that nullsec is not only about sov and alliances.
A new player would have a better chance at performing during one of the latter encounters if they had the right skills.
(The latter in the above is fleet fights.)
That is perhaps the skill for fitting a SEBO... and those should get primaried by the FC.
Look at any larger fleet fights and killmails and you see that no single pilot ever have the same amount of kills as the total of the fight.
Performing in any roles perhaps. What roles is that that intruiges a new player, again with a possibilty to accelarate training times to accomplish a certain number of SP.
You're poll is faulty. By adding a sentence after the yes or no answer you in effect put words in peoples mouths. Let them say yes or no and give their own reasons. I haven't read this thread so maybe someone else has already stated that and if so I add my voice to theirs.
People who think they should be able to just jump into a battleship and outfit it with the best mods in order to compete in pvp in Eve don't understand Eve at all. Anyone can participate in pvp in Eve, whether they just started or not. Why? Because Eve in general does not have one on one style of pvp. It's very much group oriented and anyone, no matter thier skill level, can contribute to a group. If you want to participate in pvp then join a pvp corp and participate, nobody will stop you. There are no limits to fleet size, so there's no reason a corp might tell you that you can't join their fleet, not even using an excuse such as a lack of skill points.
Reading comprehension...? Who said anything about a new player being able to just jump right into a BS anywhere in this thread?
I was exaggerating your point, sue me. The arguments are all about the same thing, and the point has been argued hundreds if not thousands of times before, being able to compete with veteran players as quickly as possible. I guess you can argue the point as much as you like as long as you recognize that your arguments won't budge CCP so much as an inch, nor change the minds of much of the community.
No you are right...why should new players even care to give the game a shot. With attitudes like yours they have all ready lost $14.99 a month because you as a vet think new players are not worth CCP givng them some incentive to stick around. That is why in my next blog I will warn new players to not waste their time and effort and money on a game that is not forgiving...in fact, of all the games currently on the market EVE is the least noob friendly game. I have said it in the past and I'll say it again, and repeatedly.
I'm not a vet, unless you think 20 mil sp makes a vet, which it doesn't. Yes Eve is hard and I wouldn't have it any other way. There should be games out there that challenge people more than the norm. The fact is tho you have as much fun in Eve as you bring the willingness to make fun for youself. It's also not easily done alone. Eve is not solo friendly unless you want to stay in high sec and mission/mine. Which is absolutely fine if you have fun doing that. It's what I do myself most of the time. I don't have to have 100 mil sp just to have fun in Eve.
There's also the fact that if you focus your sp in one direction or on fitting one ship type you can be as good as anyone else in that particular ship in a relatively (relative to Eve that is) short amount of time. The advantage vets have isn't sp anyway, it's isk. They are as good as they are because they can afford to buy faction mods worth billions. Of course if they pvp in ships equipped with such mods they stand to lose a lot and often do. Personally if I plan to pvp I'm not going to risk anything more expensive than t2 mods.
And again, if pvp is what you're after a new player shouldn't be going out alone anyway, unless he's not bothered at all to lose a ship, which is a good attitude to have. Run a few missions, or better yet get involved in corp activities, and a player can make that isk up in no time. And of course a new player should be warned from the start to never risk what you're not willing to lose.
as usual this debate has taken a turn for the worse. I will concede that I have a sp advantage if you concede that it isn't as big as most people think. I'm similiar in Malcanis case...I don't have any weapon spec's to V. However, I do have all of the named to V and most of the spec's to IV.
Is it an advantage, yes. However...I just logged out..and I was in a megathron. Let's see how the breakdown looks..
Corp management...none
Drones.....One racial to IV, Durability to IV, Combat Drone Ops to V Navigation V, Sharpshooting to V, Interfacing to V, Electronic Warfare to IV, Drone skill to V, and Scout Drone Op to V...for a total of...3,494,825 sp used for x5 med T2 drones with applicable support skills.
Electronics...Electronics to V, I assume you would think Electronic Upgrades..so that's a V, Long Range Targeting to V, Multitasking to III, Prop Jamming to V..i guess, Signature Analysis to V, Targeting to V..that's 2,584,000
Engineering...Engineering to V, Energy Emissions Systems(assuming i had a neut/nos fitted) to V, Energy Grid Updates to V, Energy Management to V, Energy Systems Ops to V, you arent getting any more Engineering as it would be armor fitted...so that's...2,304,000
Gunnery...Advanced Weapon Upgrades to V, Controlled Bursts to V, Gunnery to V, for sake of normalcy..Large Blasters spec to V, Large Hybrid to V, i will even give you med hybrid/blaster spec to IV, as it's needed...motion prediction to V, rapid firing to V, Sharpshooter to V, oh ofc I would have needed small hybrid to V, and small blaster spec to IV as well, Surgical Strike to V, Trajectory Analysis to V, and Weapon Upgrades to V....for a total of... 13,056,000.
Industry...none
Leadership?..I will go with nothing b/c this is fantasy land 1 vs 1 right?
Mechanic.....Armor Rigging to IV, EM/Therm/Kin/Exp Comps to V, Hull Upgrades to V, Mechanic to V, Repair Systems to V so that's 3,840,000.
Missile Launcher Ops..no missiles on this mega.
Navigation..Acceleration Control to V, , Evasive Maneuvering to V, you only get Afterburner to V or High Speed Man to V...let's say it was fitted with a MWD..so HSD manuevering to V, Warp Drive Ops to V, Navigation to V..so that's 3,328,000.
Science...none...
Spaceship Command...Gallente Frig/Cruiser/Battleship to V...3,840,000
Trade...none...
so let's put this together...that's 32,446, 825 sp.....out of 113 mil. This character is PvP specc'd. I guess you are saying that b/c I have 32+ mil sp in my megathron I am an uberwtfbbqpwn mobile....is that right? Oh yea..if you bring a falcon, friends, damps, bubbles...whatever...you are now at an advantage. So really, it's me..the old crusty vet that should be complaining. I have invested almost 115mil sp in PvP skills...why should a newb be able to kill invincible me? Because that's what CCP WANTS.
I can only focus those 32 mil sp in that mega...my main has just as many..and he isn't really specc'd for PvP..so he would be even a better analogy. I guess there is no convincing people. I have been brought down more times than I can remember b/c I didn't see his friends in local, I wasn't paying attention, they got the drop on me...etc.
However according to you, this character CANT lose. I wish that were the case..but sadly it isn't. I think I'm going to start a campaign to SLOW the sp progression down. I guess us vets are so old, hateful and stingy we are only in it for ourselves. Listening to these rants tells me that you either never played EvE, are a troll, played and left because you couldn't handle the "disparity" anymore or just got burned out.
That's okay. Some of us are enjoying it still. I like helping my new guys. I know when I'm not online, they can hold their own and don't need me or an admin to let them defend themselves.
You're argument doesn't work because what you're talking about is 3 vs 1, or 4 vs 1, or 5 vs 1 - on and on...and I bet those people you are up against are not noobs either. I bet none of them have less than 10mil SP. You are trying to win your argument by playing on the ideal that this is how all combat in EVE is. It is not(well...then again yes it is...many enocunters are like this...gangs of players vs 1), then again there are some small battles and then there are the fleet battles. A new player would have a better chance at performing during one of the latter encounters if they had the right skills. Any player encountering a group of players vs 1 would be hard pressed to win. That is just logic. Then again...depends on the skills and the level of those skills of the players you encounter. A brand new group of players(say 4) with less than 200k SP flying frigates will be crushed by a vet in a well fitted destroyer and up.
::sigh:: Tired of this debate. I given my opinion and I think it is the correct one. I think new players to EVE would be more likely to stick around if they had more incentive to do so. As it is now...we're lucky if they make it past their 15 day trial.
Yea it's an old debate. Someone will post this same nonsense in a few days. The highlighted portion I disagree with. I will happily take 4 newbs in t1 frigates that are willing to LISTEN over the well fitted destroyer anyday. I would wage 500 mil isk that we could do it.
You are slowly, ever so slowly seeing what I'm saying. I agree with you that vets have a sp advantage. I'll say it again...I do have an advantage over a new player in skill points. However, 1 v 1 happens so rarely it isn't even a viable criteria to base this arguement off of.
If you catch my by myself in low sec or 0.0..you can be rest assured I'm on VOIP and if my shields/tank will hold...I have friends coming and vice versa. If a blue in my area needs help, I stop what I'm doing and move out. Teamwork will always, always trump sp.
The reason that the old argument of "you can tackle" for newbs comes up...is because...tackling actually means something. I have been killed more times than I can remember...not by some nub. But by his 12 friends..the killmail states..."nub...warp disruptor damage 0"
That is why new players can find a place...anyone that doesn't allow new peeps in has there own reasons, but it rarely has to do with sp. I have booted several people out of corp..and they had over 50 mil sp...because they weren't team players. CTA comes up....they are too busy ratting.
New guy moving out to 0.0 and needs his stuff JF'd out? Jackhole is too busy doing his own stuff....then I kick them out. No one member is above the group. However the #1 reason that new guys keep kicked? They don't listen. Losing ships means nothing...not following instructions compromises ops. You're out. I feel that low sec/null sec just requires a different mindset. IF players can get that, they do fine. If they don't..well they leave...good riddance.
"Permanance, perseverance and persistence in spite of all obstacles, discouragements, and impossibilities. It is this, that all things distinguishes the strong soul from the weak." -Thomas Carlyle
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
I don't see newbies having a way to bolster SP gain earlier in the game but doing it by missions is a terrible idea, what if the players a miner? or if he leaves high sec and moves to 0.0 and makes an income from anoms or plexes?
There should be more options and just funneling players into missions even more isn't the answer because IMO that costs CCP more subs than any other reason, newbies get terrified of being ganked because either they lost a ship (which everyone does as a newb) or they hear horror stories in NPC corp chat so they decide to "make some ISK and get SP" and get onto the mission treadmill and then get bored and quit.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush, Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light, Company of Heroes II.
Eve does not need it's fundamentals switched to "Oh man, I am 40k SP shy of Cadillacs IV. Let me pump out a few missions for it." You can say just do it to 10 Million, but the heart of the new age MMO'er will eventually press for 15 Mil, and then 20 Mil.
I wonder if people who barks about not being able to catch a Vet realize that if it take 5 Mil SP to totally max out a frigate, a guy with 50 Mil SP will only be utilizing...GASP...5 Mil of his SP flying frigates...
Not a terribly bad idea, IMO; but first off all it would at least piss off alot of vets and add a whole new dimension to (forced) mission grinding in EvE online (as has been pointed out), and I think there probably are better ways to entice new players into experiencing the game than just handing out ''free levels''.
The OP has talked about her opinion on the subject and the thoughts of a friend of hers, so I would also like to do something similar. I have several friends who like MMO's but most of em do not want to play eve (despite my insistances) on the grounds that they think a vast majority of eve online's content is pvp based and penalties are too harsh.. WHICH IT IS, and I accept it and play the game accordingly, but it evidently scares off some potentional newcomers. But than again it could also hurt / piss off the current player base of EVE who like things the way they are, which leads me to the idea of an additional ''carebear server'' for eve online. (Yeah probably im not the first one to think of that) You get to choose which gameplay you like (classic or carebear) and hopefully nobody gets hurt in the process:D (pun not intended) AND the company gets access to a new player base as well.
Teala, it has been explained carefully and in detail why the gap between "new players" and "veterans" isn't growing (except in the trivial numerical sense) on this forum alone so many times that I'm actually starting to wonder if you're actually the best troll on these forums.
There are a number of fallacies that are explicit in your posts. I'm going to list them out for other people to read if they like, since I know that you will ignore what has been explained to you a dozen times already.
(1) EVE skills work on diminishing returns. You typically get 96% of the advantage for 18% of the SP investment by training a skill to level 4. A new player can very quickly be competent in almost any area that takes his interest. There are a few exceptions to this, like capital ships, that inescapably take at least a year to achieve a reasonable skill level for, but it's definitely good for the game to throttle access to these ships.
(2) You're framing the argument as "new players vs veterans", as if EVE was wholly structured as players competing individually with each other. In fact 1v1 in anything is extremely rare. EVE is largely based on teams of players co-operating. The quality of the team you're in is far more important than how many skills you have at level V. The parts of the game that aren't co-op are mostly structured as a race, not a fight. ie: that 90M SP veteran might be faster than you at mining or missioning, but that doesn't make you any slower. He just makes more ISK than you is all.
(3) The "SP filters" that you keep going on about do exist. Let me parse them out for you: "we only want to recruit players who have been playing for at least a year and know what the hell they're doing outside of hi-sec". Your plan to give people an extra 5-10M SP (or however much) will simply add 5-10M SP to the level of those filters, because they dont want people who have done nothing but endlessly grind missions. They want people with the level of player skill implied by those skill levels. Those SP barriers are actually quite permeable to players who can demonstrate that they're sufficiently competent. They're pretty impervious to those who haven't achieved anything other than being able to clear Sansha Blockade in under 12 minutes.
(4) Speaking of which... why do you want to force new players to grind missions for these SP? Why privilege mission running over every other profession, when mission running is the easiest, least EVE-like and probably least-fun gameplay in the game?
(5) EVE is on of the very very few MMOs that doesn't have a level grind. I can pretty much tell you that most of the people in those "SP filter" corps wouldn't have subscribed if it was based on level grinding; I certainly wouldn't. Those of us with jobs and lives appreciate very much that we can advance our characters interests by playing the game, rather than grinding sub-par PvE content we're not interested in. Your idea would effectively condemn new players to months of grinding missions, and I genuinely can't think of anything that would be more likely to make them quit than that.
(6) You're trying to state that new players can't catch up, when it's trivially obvious to demonstrate that they can, because although the difference in the number of SP might never be closed, any given skill is capped at level 5, and there are a finite number of skills that can apply in any given situation. Therefore a new player can "catch up" to a veteran in any given ship, QED. All you're whining about is that you dont want it to take as long for you as it did for them. You're like the office boy crying that he doesn't get paid as much as the office manager. Well no shit, you just joined - put some time in!
The "7 pillars" of EVE advancement are, in ascending order, the following:
(1) Your ISK and general wealth
(2) Your skillpoints. Yes they are good to have and they do give advantages.
(3) Your in-game assets. This isn't just ships, this includes things like agent/faction standings, bookmarks, etc.
(4) Your friends and contacts in game.
(5) Your experience and knowledge of game mechanics
(6) Your personal player skill
(7) The quality of your corp (and you alliance if you're in one).
Now only the first 2 of those pillars are directly shown in the character sheet. Unfortunately, because most MMO players come from games where the aim of the game is literally to maximise some numbers on your character sheet, they, like you, find EVE extremely frustrating and unfair.
What I'm building up to is this single insight: Skillpoints are not an end in themselves in EVE. They're just a means to an end. The more you have, the more things you can do, but this also applies equally to the other pillars as well, and you can use strength in one to compensate for weakness in another.
So many new players think that they should work on pillars 1-> 7, when actually they should work 7 -> 1.
A lot of people have already said it, but I'll say it again just to add my vote without touching the poll.
I say low sp chars should be able to do something to increase SP rate, or some way to get more SP. But only missions? F-that. It needs to cover everything, and that may be too much for CCP to chew on and think about when they are working on Incarna right now.
A lot of people have already said it, but I'll say it again just to add my vote without touching the poll.
I say low sp chars should be able to do something to increase SP rate, or some way to get more SP. But only missions? F-that. It needs to cover everything, and that may be too much for CCP to chew on and think about when they are working on Incarna right now.
Toucheth the poll, sir! The more that respond, then more weigh the poll has.
CCP, like all developers with a successful MMO that has some years under its belt, regularly looks at how to get new players into the game both in the sense of bringing them into the established community of seasoned players and in getting them the stats/resources they desire to feel comfortable that they can contribute meaningfully to the community.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The "7 pillars" of EVE advancement are, in ascending order, the following:
(1) Your ISK and general wealth
(2) Your skillpoints. Yes they are good to have and they do give advantages.
(3) Your in-game assets. This isn't just ships, this includes things like agent/faction standings, bookmarks, etc.
(4) Your friends and contacts in game.
(5) Your experience and knowledge of game mechanics
(6) Your personal player skill
(7) The quality of your corp (and you alliance if you're in one).
Now only the first 2 of those pillars are directly shown in the character sheet. Unfortunately, because most MMO players come from games where the aim of the game is literally to maximise some numbers on your character sheet, they, like you, find EVE extremely frustrating and unfair.
What I'm building up to is this single insight: Skillpoints are not an end in themselves in EVE. They're just a means to an end. The more you have, the more things you can do, but this also applies equally to the other pillars as well, and you can use strength in one to compensate for weakness in another.
So many new players think that they should work on pillars 1-> 7, when actually they should work 7 -> 1.
This post should be stickied at the top of the forums (especially the 7 Pillars part), it explains so well where SP's really stand in terms of enjoying EVE.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I vote yes, it's impossible to catch up with people that have 3-4 year advantage, no matter how much you play. They will simply have more stats, more ships - more options then any other player, hardcore or not.
It's not about catching up or options, it's about how you allocate the skill points you've got. I can take a new character and train them up into frigate within two weeks, and they would hold their own against a vet. I know this, because I've done it. Remember that when your character reaches level five you can't go any higher. You can't get any more out of the ship you've trained for, unless you use implants or boosters.
Right. Any good vet will have you for breakfast. A vet with advanced gunnery skills(adding on average 25% more damage, and tackling skills that will over come anything you can through at them on a two week old character in a frigate - even if the vet was flying a frigate fitted the same as yours...you would lose - unless the vet just plain sucks).
Originally posted by Teala
Know what I find so funny is that most good PvP corps won't even consider you for their corp unless you have PVP experience and 30+ mil SP. Sure a few might take on someone with 10-20 mil SP, but not many. Go read the recruitment boards over at EVE Online.
As for the 20+ or 30+ mil points required to join a corporation. I think you will find it's not about the number of skill points they've got. It's more about how much the pilot is dedicated. Because you don't want to take a newbie in, spend time and ISK training them, only to have them leave the game a few weeks later. Plus it's also an anti spy device since most people aren't willing to pay for a new account, just to go and spy on somebody.
My response to this as I have said repeatedly - You people act as if we're asking CCP to just give new players 10 mil SP. It would still take upwards of a few months to earn 10 mil SP, it would not happen over night.
It's not just about the skills of your character, it's also about your own training. So you can have all your character skills at level five. But it won't make any difference, because if you've haven't got the knowledge or training to use that character, then you're still going to lose. Even against somebody with less skill points than yourself.
It's also not about how many ship types you can field. It's also about how you use the ship and equipment fitted to it. Different fighting styles suit different people. Eventually the pilot will find a style that they are suitable for, and to get good at it they need to practice. It's like learning to drive a car or flying a jet, you don't enter a learner driver in a F1 race, and you certainly wouldn’t put a rookie pilot in charge of a 5mil dollar fighter jet.
You can talk all you want about giving new pilots extra skill points, but it won't make a blind bit of difference. Especially, if you come up against a vet. Because they’ve got the knowledge to use the skills and character they've taken the time to train up.
To be remotely good at EVE takes time. I've now been in the game six years and I'm still learning. I maybe a vet, but even now after all this time I've still got my weaknesses. Nobody on this planet is good at everything they do, and if anybody did say that I'd call them a liar.
The only way your going to survive in PvP and EVE is through training and practice. You're also going to get frustrated. Sometimes you're going to walk away from the computer wanting to beat your head on the nearest brick wall, that’s all apart of the learning curve.
It's just a shame that people these days just want to take the easy route. Because if you do the training and the work involved and you get good. When you do beat that vet or achieve your goal, it's the best feeling on earth. It feels like you've just won the lotto and that feeling will never go away.
and the reason is EVE is suppose to be about freedom not freedom after you grind missions to 10 million SP. When i started playing i was purely a miner then i got into pvp when i felt like i had a good income. In that time i never did a mission. I would have hated it if they punished me for not mission running.
Edit - after taking the poll i am very suprised by the number of people who like this idea.
Playing: PO, EVE Waiting for: WoD Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
I'm with Kyleran. Let's sticky Malcanis post to the EvE forums. I think at least 1/2 of my posts are about this very topic. With all the gainsvilleg's of the world...no matter what you try and say...it will either won't be fair, CCP is only looking out for vets, vets don't want newbs to gain, etc.
Mal's list of the 7 pillars makes the most sense of it that I've seen so far. I am to the point I expect to see this question when I log onto this site now.
Great job Malcanis.
E:spell
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die Hiatus: EvE Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh) Interested in: better games in general
I'm semi-new to EVE and if anything I feel so pressured to advance faster than I should be already... I'm not sure if adding quicker paths to victory is the answer. I currently have about 3mil SP, a lot of which are spread thinly around in different areas of the game.
For me it wasn't the fact that others are so far ahead of me, its that I feel like I need to be so hardcore effecient with my skills that no matter what I'm doing I'm doing the wrong thing and "wasting" my skills. I don't completely hate the idea of giving bonus SP. I do not think missioning should be the only route (although there are research, courier, kill, mining missions people its not just kill).
But I would lower the SP given, and spread it around to each "area". So if you can earn up to 5mil SP you can only earn up to 1mil extra in combat, 1mil in trade, 1mil in mining, etc. Really I think this would help new players a lot more than zerging them into a battle cruiser when they don't fully understand things like transversal velocity, missile damage, resists, optimal vs falloff etc.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Teala, it has been explained carefully and in detail why the gap between "new players" and "veterans" isn't growing (except in the trivial numerical sense) on this forum alone so many times that I'm actually starting to wonder if you're actually the best troll on these forums.
There are a number of fallacies that are explicit in your posts. I'm going to list them out for other people to read if they like, since I know that you will ignore what has been explained to you a dozen times already.
(1) EVE skills work on diminishing returns. You typically get 96% of the advantage for 18% of the SP investment by training a skill to level 4. A new player can very quickly be competent in almost any area that takes his interest. There are a few exceptions to this, like capital ships, that inescapably take at least a year to achieve a reasonable skill level for, but it's definitely good for the game to throttle access to these ships.
1) You can be completely "viable" in PVP within months. The trick here is to change it from equal to viable, which is of course highly subjective and often means "You can tackle in group combat"
and
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
(2) You're framing the argument as "new players vs veterans", as if EVE was wholly structured as players competing individually with each other. In fact 1v1 in anything is extremely rare. EVE is largely based on teams of players co-operating. The quality of the team you're in is far more important than how many skills you have at level V. The parts of the game that aren't co-op are mostly structured as a race, not a fight. ie: that 90M SP veteran might be faster than you at mining or missioning, but that doesn't make you any slower. He just makes more ISK than you is all.
2) PVP isn't 1 vs 1 so who cares? Purely diversionary, it is essentially conceding the point but saying it doesn't matter
(3) The "SP filters" that you keep going on about do exist. Let me parse them out for you: "we only want to recruit players who have been playing for at least a year and know what the hell they're doing outside of hi-sec". Your plan to give people an extra 5-10M SP (or however much) will simply add 5-10M SP to the level of those filters, because they dont want people who have done nothing but endlessly grind missions. They want people with the level of player skill implied by those skill levels. Those SP barriers are actually quite permeable to players who can demonstrate that they're sufficiently competent. They're pretty impervious to those who haven't achieved anything other than being able to clear Sansha Blockade in under 12 minutes.
5) "Noobs wouldn't be able to handle the good ships yet, it is for their own benefit it takes years to train." To me this is the most laughable. You can probably know everything there is to know within 3 months. Why should it take 2-3 years of artificial monthly payments to prove it?
(4) Speaking of which... why do you want to force new players to grind missions for these SP? Why privilege mission running over every other profession, when mission running is the easiest, least EVE-like and probably least-fun gameplay in the game?
Not a denial just saying missions aren't fun.
(5) EVE is on of the very very few MMOs that doesn't have a level grind. I can pretty much tell you that most of the people in those "SP filter" corps wouldn't have subscribed if it was based on level grinding; I certainly wouldn't. Those of us with jobs and lives appreciate very much that we can advance our characters interests by playing the game, rather than grinding sub-par PvE content we're not interested in. Your idea would effectively condemn new players to months of grinding missions, and I genuinely can't think of anything that would be more likely to make them quit than that.
Not a denial just saying missions aren't fun.
(6) You're trying to state that new players can't catch up, when it's trivially obvious to demonstrate that they can, because although the difference in the number of SP might never be closed, any given skill is capped at level 5, and there are a finite number of skills that can apply in any given situation. Therefore a new player can "catch up" to a veteran in any given ship, QED. All you're whining about is that you dont want it to take as long for you as it did for them. You're like the office boy crying that he doesn't get paid as much as the office manager. Well no shit, you just joined - put some time in!
3) "Here is a skill plan to fly ship XXX in 4 months." The trick here is just flying a ship doesn't mean you are flying it with equal fittings and support skill bonuses. And take it from a vet, those support skill bonuses add up exponentially fast. They really should be called "Massive combat bonuses" rather than "support skills"
BRILLIANT use of pretty much every diversionary tactic I listed earlier in this thread (post #126). Thanks! I copy/psted above for illustration to the noobs so they won't keep getting fooled by these diversionary tactics from the vets...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind" 1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN 2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
as a farily new eve player of around 5 months. I would say no. I know that there are people out there flying ships that I wish I could fly or flying ships that I can fly more effectively, But awarding Skill points from mission running is just dumb. I know That if I want to fly a ship I can fly it just as good as anyone else out thier granted it may take me a year to max all the relative skills to 5 but once I do max them out to 5 ill be just as skilled in that ships abilitys as anyone else that has all the skills to five.
The great part of eve is anyone can get in and do what ever they want, Yes skills give other people the advantages in the same things that a new player may have but theres nothing stoping them from doing it and skilling up and doing farily well in anything they want to do in eve. A pvper could train skills for less then 3 days and be a fine asset to any pvp corperation yes hes doing tackling and not strong DPS that you would get outta a megathron, but hes an asset to his friends, A person can log into the game brand new with zero new skills and blast rocks for hours on ends, or jump into a frigate and blast ships in missions, any new pilot can waite a few days and start doing great marketing trades, or building ships, or anything in eve.
The point in eve, is yes you may have 30 million skill points in random skills, that doesnt make you a better pilot then somone that has 10 million skill points focused on a single ship. giving an extra free 10 million skill points isnt gonna incress new players, if they dont like the game or focused on getting skill points now there not gonna like it 10 million free skill points later.
I think this would piss more people off than anything, First its free xp.. about 5-6 months worth (@10mil) if you avg 2500 sp/hr on a skill.
Anyone with a newish account about 6 months or less would be rather pissed they just got screwed out, and I think any vet would be pissed aswell about this free xp that they had to earn themselves over time.
I know even myself, I would look at my total SP of 40ish mil, and see some noob gets 1/4 of what I have for grinding some high sec missions in his first week of play, I say frell that!
Let me put it to you this way. If a player, any players does not have 10 mil SP, they qualifiy to "earn", by "running missions", extra SP - upto a mx of 10 mil SP. Once a player hits 10 mil SP, then they earn skill advancement just like anyone else. They would still have to run missions. The SP would not just be handed to them. So you're still looking at a good deal of time for a player to achieve that level of SP.
Also, I would think you as a veteran player would appresciate the chance to get more people playing EVE. I would like to think that veteran players would not be so selfish. You have your 40 + mil SP, we're talking 10 mil here. That is just a good round number to get a player upto speed and should in no way really threaten you. The new player would still need a couple or a few months under their belt to participate at the "player skill" level a 40 mil SP veteran might have.
Whoah...
Looks like you've kinda blown any sense of objectivity in your poll out of the water here. This is qutie clearly about you shoving your personal opinion down others' throats.
It's "selfish" for a vet with 40mil SP to not like the idea that newer players are given an easier and, likely, much faster path to getting more points after they spent years training them? You make it sound like those 40mil points were handed to them "just for being vets", in some show of favoritism. They had to earn those points. They had to *pay*, real world money, for the months and years of gametime required to earn those points... just like every other player. And just like every other player, they started out as a complete newbie with zero.
I would say it's entirely reasonable that new players have to earn the points the same way as everyone else. That's the way the game was designed, and that's the way it's been played, by 100s of thousands of people, for several years now. What you're suggesting is just another spin on the "It's not fair that other people have had more time to play andp rogress than me, and I don't want to put in the time they did, so they should change the game to make it faster". It's the typical entitled, "me me me" nonsense that comes up with just about any MMO these days... including the ones that *do* have faster leveling to begin with. There's always some group of players who feels they deserve special treatment because they decided to join the party after everyone else.
And, anyway, as has been debated and illustrated myriad times, you don't need 40 mil to be competitive with someone who also has 40 mil, because no player is using all 40 mil of their points at one time. They're using only a portion of them; the ones dedicated to the specific ship/spec they're using at that time. It does not take "years", nor even "many months" to become competitive. All it requires is being focused on what style you want to play, and then putting the points into the skills that support that style.
I would say it's selfish for some new player who decides to join the game years after it launched to come along and say "Well, I want to play this, but I don't like that I have to spend as much time as others have to get where they are. So, the developers should change the game to make it faster or easier for me to get there".
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
as a farily new eve player of around 5 months. I would say no. I know that there are people out there flying ships that I wish I could fly or flying ships that I can fly more effectively, But awarding Skill points from mission running is just dumb. I know That if I want to fly a ship I can fly it just as good as anyone else out thier granted it may take me a year to max all the relative skills to 5 but once I do max them out to 5 ill be just as skilled in that ships abilitys as anyone else that has all the skills to five.
The great part of eve is anyone can get in and do what ever they want, Yes skills give other people the advantages in the same things that a new player may have but theres nothing stoping them from doing it and skilling up and doing farily well in anything they want to do in eve. A pvper could train skills for less then 3 days and be a fine asset to any pvp corperation yes hes doing tackling and not strong DPS that you would get outta a megathron, but hes an asset to his friends, A person can log into the game brand new with zero new skills and blast rocks for hours on ends, or jump into a frigate and blast ships in missions, any new pilot can waite a few days and start doing great marketing trades, or building ships, or anything in eve.
The point in eve, is yes you may have 30 million skill points in random skills, that doesnt make you a better pilot then somone that has 10 million skill points focused on a single ship. giving an extra free 10 million skill points isnt gonna incress new players, if they dont like the game or focused on getting skill points now there not gonna like it 10 million free skill points later.
Wow I said I was done with this thread but I guess I am not, becuase once again it seems somone is making it sound like I am advocating just giving new players 10 mil SP.
THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.
It would still take a plyer time to earn the 10mil SP, it just wouldn't takea whole frikking year or more.
As for your comment, " A pvper could train skills for less then 3 days and be a fine asset to any pvp corperation ", right...I've talked about people like you coming on this thread and blowing smoke up potential players nethers and here you go and prove my point. No...zero....zilch...good PvP corp will even consider a such a noob pilot. That player might, might, get into a noob corp...but he'll be hating it and probably drop the game when he realizes that joining that noob corp will bring nothing but headaches to him when they refuse to replinish all the ships he'll be losing. Training for 72hrs in EVE won't even net you 200k SP for a noob. What are you going to do for a corp. Fly a t1 frigate with gunnery skills at level 2, motion prediction at level 2, small (x type) turrets at level 2, maybe have frigate to level 3, and maybe have what...let me see....have propulsion jamming to level 1, electronics to level 3(need that atleast to 3to even get propulsion jamming skill). A couple of other skills, mechanic to level 2, and engineering to level 2. Unless you spent skill points in cybernetics to level 3 you cannot even get into beta implants(which can give you +3 to your atributes) because I doubt a noob corp is willing to spend the 25+ mil to get you into them, and then...unless you have earned enough faction points for that particular station you are playing out of you cannot get a jump clone so getting those level 3's would be a waste of time - even though they would give you the ability to learn faster. So you would most likely barely be scrapping out 150k SP in 72hrs as a noob.
Wow...I can go on and on...
I am advocating allowing new players some means of earning SP faster than they do now so that they are not so far behind the players that have been playing for 3+ years and have upwards of 30+ mil SP. Allowing a new player, or any player with less than 10mil SP, would allow that player to get upto speed faster than they do now.
I REPEAT.
Nobody is advocating "giving" anyone anything for free....they would still have to "EARN IT!" It just wouldn't take a year of subscription fees to get it. It might take 6 months, but no 12+!
I think this would piss more people off than anything, First its free xp.. about 5-6 months worth (@10mil) if you avg 2500 sp/hr on a skill.
Anyone with a newish account about 6 months or less would be rather pissed they just got screwed out, and I think any vet would be pissed aswell about this free xp that they had to earn themselves over time.
I know even myself, I would look at my total SP of 40ish mil, and see some noob gets 1/4 of what I have for grinding some high sec missions in his first week of play, I say frell that!
Let me put it to you this way. If a player, any players does not have 10 mil SP, they qualifiy to "earn", by "running missions", extra SP - upto a mx of 10 mil SP. Once a player hits 10 mil SP, then they earn skill advancement just like anyone else. They would still have to run missions. The SP would not just be handed to them. So you're still looking at a good deal of time for a player to achieve that level of SP.
Also, I would think you as a veteran player would appresciate the chance to get more people playing EVE. I would like to think that veteran players would not be so selfish. You have your 40 + mil SP, we're talking 10 mil here. That is just a good round number to get a player upto speed and should in no way really threaten you. The new player would still need a couple or a few months under their belt to participate at the "player skill" level a 40 mil SP veteran might have.
Whoah...
Looks like you've kinda blown any sense of objectivity in your poll out of the water here. This is qutie clearly about you shoving your personal opinion down others' throats.
It's "selfish" for a vet with 40mil SP to not like the idea that newer players are given an easier and, likely, much faster path to getting more points after they spent years training them? You make it sound like those 40mil points were handed to them "just for being vets", in some show of favoritism. They had to earn those points. They had to *pay*, real world money, for the months and years of gametime required to earn those points... just like every other player. And just like every other player, they started out as a complete newbie with zero.
I would say it's entirely reasonable that new players have to earn the points the same way as everyone else. That's the way the game was designed, and that's the way it's been played, by 100s of thousands of people, for several years now. What you're suggesting is just another spin on the "It's not fair that other people have had more time to play andp rogress than me, and I don't want to put in the time they did, so they should change the game to make it faster". It's the typical entitled, "me me me" nonsense that comes up with just about any MMO these days... including the ones that *do* have faster leveling to begin with. There's always some group of players who feels they deserve special treatment because they decided to join the party after everyone else.
And, anyway, as has been debated and illustrated myriad times, you don't need 40 mil to be competitive with someone who also has 40 mil, because no player is using all 40 mil of their points at one time. They're using only a portion of them; the ones dedicated to the specific ship/spec they're using at that time. It does not take "years", nor even "many months" to become competitive. All it requires is being focused on what style you want to play, and then putting the points into the skills that support that style.
I would say it's selfish for some new player who decides to join the game years after it launched to come along and say "Well, I want to play this, but I don't like that I have to spend as much time as others have to get where they are. So, the developers should change the game to make it faster or easier for me to get there".
Then you will just be stagnating the game. Even CCP has admitted that they wish the game could be more new player friendly than what it is. That is why over the years they have tried to remedy that. Hopefully, they will figure out a new way to enable new players a better chance to catch up. Maybe they could increase a new players learning speed for the first 10 mil SP instead of the current 900k. That would go a long way to helping get new players to stay past their 15 day trial.
Then you will just be stagnating the game. Even CCP has admitted that they wish the game could be more new player friendly than what it is. That is why over the years they have tried to remedy that. Hopefully, they will figure out a new way to enable new players a better chance to catch up. Maybe they could increase a new players learning speed for the first 10 mil SP instead of the current 900k. That would go a long way to helping get new players to stay past their 15 day trial.
They want it more player friendly because most people when they join EVE come in with the mindset of I need to be X lvl so I can join Y guild so I can participate in End-game Content Z. They then take that mind set like you have and say that I need 10, 20, 300mil Sp or whatever the flavor of the argument is for that day in order to join a PvP corp to compete in the "end-game" EvE PVP. Problem is that just isn't nessicary, Yes most Null-sec Alliances have a 30mil SP requirement, It has nothing to do with those SP being required to complete but most don't want to deal with the issue of a newer player coming out then either; acting like an idiot, leaving the game since they have no ties to it yet, or being a spy.
Now combine that with players not quite grasping how the game works or what they can do with thier skill points is the real problem. You want to help people out create a PvP tutorial where the player in the T1 inty hull ship has to tackle a BS lobbing torps while an NPC allys do the damage to kill them, and better yet put 2 of those NPCs out there and have one of them warp away deep in structure. Do similiar ones with Damps, Tracking disruptors, and ECM. Show them the benefit that a new player in an easily trained Blackbird, Celestis, or Arbitrator can do. Show them the power that teamwork has over SP.
Also start adding sleeper AI to new missions so they become a challange that requires Teamwork and risk. Most players first experience in EvE combat is the NPC only variety of Tank vs Gank. Things like spider tanks and EWAR are unheard of by players for a long time and the benefit they have on a fleet. The first 10, 20 or whatever skillpoints don't matter its the fact that the current introduction to eve is very, well, boring.
Those that are upset they never will catch up won't make it in EvE to begin with, EvE is not a game for those who shy away from obstacles, it's about imbracing them. If thier first response is crap, I'm behind, I'm screwed what does it matter. If they are given a billion SP, they'll go crap i don't have the ISK reserve they do, I'm screwed why play.
EVE already has the first 1.6mill SP trained at double speed, that is a good enough start for new players considering all players now have a flat +10 to all attributes thanks to the removal of the learning skills. Any new addition would just be an annoyance to the existing EVE population and besides, the Universe of New Eden is not a place for people to be babysit.
"Not meaning to anger anyone with this thread, though I know in these forums its quite impossible. You can say "I enjoy vanilla ice cream" and still have 50 posts of angry, hot-tempered people who have nothing better to do than argue with you." - Dirkzen
A better way to do it would be to just enhance the training speed boost for newbies. Something like 5x to 1M then 4x to 2M then 3x to 3M then 2x to 4M, this will get new players quickly into 4M SP which is a much more suitable number than 1.6M nowadays.
I'm with the OP on this issue. One of the only reasons I find myself not getting sucked into EVE is the fact I can never catch up to vets who started before me regardless of how much effort I put into playing. I am a competitive gamer, I like fair fights that are determined by player skill, not by the amount of skills a player has obtained through months of AFK skill grinding while paying the sub to play.
I have an EVE account, really loved the game... but again if I can't catch up at least a little to be able to do something semi-fun and / or useful to a guild why should I play?
I know EVE is a game that likely gets better through time as you gain skills... but damn even 3 months to get to the basics of a PvP build is a lot of time just to get to the point of having some fun.
as a farily new eve player of around 5 months. I would say no. I know that there are people out there flying ships that I wish I could fly or flying ships that I can fly more effectively, But awarding Skill points from mission running is just dumb. I know That if I want to fly a ship I can fly it just as good as anyone else out thier granted it may take me a year to max all the relative skills to 5 but once I do max them out to 5 ill be just as skilled in that ships abilitys as anyone else that has all the skills to five.
The great part of eve is anyone can get in and do what ever they want, Yes skills give other people the advantages in the same things that a new player may have but theres nothing stoping them from doing it and skilling up and doing farily well in anything they want to do in eve. A pvper could train skills for less then 3 days and be a fine asset to any pvp corperation yes hes doing tackling and not strong DPS that you would get outta a megathron, but hes an asset to his friends, A person can log into the game brand new with zero new skills and blast rocks for hours on ends, or jump into a frigate and blast ships in missions, any new pilot can waite a few days and start doing great marketing trades, or building ships, or anything in eve.
The point in eve, is yes you may have 30 million skill points in random skills, that doesnt make you a better pilot then somone that has 10 million skill points focused on a single ship. giving an extra free 10 million skill points isnt gonna incress new players, if they dont like the game or focused on getting skill points now there not gonna like it 10 million free skill points later.
Wow I said I was done with this thread but I guess I am not, becuase once again it seems somone is making it sound like I am advocating just giving new players 10 mil SP.
THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.
It would still take a plyer time to earn the 10mil SP, it just wouldn't takea whole frikking year or more.
As for your comment, " A pvper could train skills for less then 3 days and be a fine asset to any pvp corperation ", right...I've talked about people like you coming on this thread and blowing smoke up potential players nethers and here you go and prove my point. No...zero....zilch...good PvP corp will even consider a such a noob pilot. That player might, might, get into a noob corp...but he'll be hating it and probably drop the game when he realizes that joining that noob corp will bring nothing but headaches to him when they refuse to replinish all the ships he'll be losing. Training for 72hrs in EVE won't even net you 200k SP for a noob. What are you going to do for a corp. Fly a t1 frigate with gunnery skills at level 2, motion prediction at level 2, small (x type) turrets at level 2, maybe have frigate to level 3, and maybe have what...let me see....have propulsion jamming to level 1, electronics to level 3(need that atleast to 3to even get propulsion jamming skill). A couple of other skills, mechanic to level 2, and engineering to level 2. Unless you spent skill points in cybernetics to level 3 you cannot even get into beta implants(which can give you +3 to your atributes) because I doubt a noob corp is willing to spend the 25+ mil to get you into them, and then...unless you have earned enough faction points for that particular station you are playing out of you cannot get a jump clone so getting those level 3's would be a waste of time - even though they would give you the ability to learn faster. So you would most likely barely be scrapping out 150k SP in 72hrs as a noob.
Wow...I can go on and on...
I am advocating allowing new players some means of earning SP faster than they do now so that they are not so far behind the players that have been playing for 3+ years and have upwards of 30+ mil SP. Allowing a new player, or any player with less than 10mil SP, would allow that player to get upto speed faster than they do now.
I REPEAT.
Nobody is advocating "giving" anyone anything for free....they would still have to "EARN IT!" It just wouldn't take a year of subscription fees to get it. It might take 6 months, but no 12+!
Sure they would earn the 10m sp's and then what, there gonna complain and moan that they have to sit around and waite for more SP. This Is like putting down a cake infront of a person letting them take 5 bites, and then pulling it away and saying now you have to waite 10 min for the next bite. 15 for the following and 25 for the last. Sure the current way is take a bite waite a min, take another bite waite 2 min take another bite waite 5 min take another bite waite 10 min take another bite waite 15 min take last bite after 25 min. but atleast you know what your getting into at the start, instead of Hey hear do missions you get SP's and ISK. then take it away when they get to 10 million.
And yes you can easly fly a T1 frigate with crappy blasters and have a point to put on somone and help tackle for any corp. sure you might not go into some amazing corp right off the bat but you can join up with a good enough corp to teach you the ropes of how the game works in a pvp aspect. With less then 3 million skill points I was welcomed into The Orphanage just fine and last I heard there one of the biggest Merc Aliances around. I left them in good standings because I wanted to presue a diffrent life then high sec war.
Comments
65-75% of what?
Whole of EVE population or of the Empire/low sec populaltion EVE.
Either way I hardly think that we would ever see 75% of any of those two (1st whole eve pop or 2nd empire pop) go join nullsec if that had the chance to accelerate their SP up to 10M.
That would leave empire space pretty dry would it not?
You have a multitude of reasons of not being in nullsec.
Lacking corp/alliance leadeship, no interest in nullsec, highsec mission alt, trade alt... the list is pretty long. People don't really have the interest or motivation that holding sov brings gamewise. Tired of politics, tired of CTA (alarmclock CTA
)
The reasons are there and they are not only spelt skill points.People not joining nullsec because they feel lacking of SP is a pretty easy scape goat.
I believe that those that wants to go to nullsec ends up there because of motivation more than having any numbers of SP or for that matter the time it took to get them. What would these people you talk about do when they are getting faced with a wish for trainging to a new fleet doctrine? Biomass their current character and grind a new one?
Oh, I have not forget that nullsec is not only about sov and alliances.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
(The latter in the above is fleet fights.)
That is perhaps the skill for fitting a SEBO... and those should get primaried by the FC.
Look at any larger fleet fights and killmails and you see that no single pilot ever have the same amount of kills as the total of the fight.
Performing in any roles perhaps. What roles is that that intruiges a new player, again with a possibilty to accelarate training times to accomplish a certain number of SP.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
I'm not a vet, unless you think 20 mil sp makes a vet, which it doesn't. Yes Eve is hard and I wouldn't have it any other way. There should be games out there that challenge people more than the norm. The fact is tho you have as much fun in Eve as you bring the willingness to make fun for youself. It's also not easily done alone. Eve is not solo friendly unless you want to stay in high sec and mission/mine. Which is absolutely fine if you have fun doing that. It's what I do myself most of the time. I don't have to have 100 mil sp just to have fun in Eve.
There's also the fact that if you focus your sp in one direction or on fitting one ship type you can be as good as anyone else in that particular ship in a relatively (relative to Eve that is) short amount of time. The advantage vets have isn't sp anyway, it's isk. They are as good as they are because they can afford to buy faction mods worth billions. Of course if they pvp in ships equipped with such mods they stand to lose a lot and often do. Personally if I plan to pvp I'm not going to risk anything more expensive than t2 mods.
And again, if pvp is what you're after a new player shouldn't be going out alone anyway, unless he's not bothered at all to lose a ship, which is a good attitude to have. Run a few missions, or better yet get involved in corp activities, and a player can make that isk up in no time. And of course a new player should be warned from the start to never risk what you're not willing to lose.
Yea it's an old debate. Someone will post this same nonsense in a few days. The highlighted portion I disagree with. I will happily take 4 newbs in t1 frigates that are willing to LISTEN over the well fitted destroyer anyday. I would wage 500 mil isk that we could do it.
You are slowly, ever so slowly seeing what I'm saying. I agree with you that vets have a sp advantage. I'll say it again...I do have an advantage over a new player in skill points. However, 1 v 1 happens so rarely it isn't even a viable criteria to base this arguement off of.
If you catch my by myself in low sec or 0.0..you can be rest assured I'm on VOIP and if my shields/tank will hold...I have friends coming and vice versa. If a blue in my area needs help, I stop what I'm doing and move out. Teamwork will always, always trump sp.
The reason that the old argument of "you can tackle" for newbs comes up...is because...tackling actually means something. I have been killed more times than I can remember...not by some nub. But by his 12 friends..the killmail states..."nub...warp disruptor damage 0"
That is why new players can find a place...anyone that doesn't allow new peeps in has there own reasons, but it rarely has to do with sp. I have booted several people out of corp..and they had over 50 mil sp...because they weren't team players. CTA comes up....they are too busy ratting.
New guy moving out to 0.0 and needs his stuff JF'd out? Jackhole is too busy doing his own stuff....then I kick them out. No one member is above the group. However the #1 reason that new guys keep kicked? They don't listen. Losing ships means nothing...not following instructions compromises ops. You're out. I feel that low sec/null sec just requires a different mindset. IF players can get that, they do fine. If they don't..well they leave...good riddance.
"Permanance, perseverance and persistence in spite of all obstacles, discouragements, and impossibilities. It is this, that all things distinguishes the strong soul from the weak." -Thomas Carlyle
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I don't see newbies having a way to bolster SP gain earlier in the game but doing it by missions is a terrible idea, what if the players a miner? or if he leaves high sec and moves to 0.0 and makes an income from anoms or plexes?
There should be more options and just funneling players into missions even more isn't the answer because IMO that costs CCP more subs than any other reason, newbies get terrified of being ganked because either they lost a ship (which everyone does as a newb) or they hear horror stories in NPC corp chat so they decide to "make some ISK and get SP" and get onto the mission treadmill and then get bored and quit.
Currently playing:
EVE online (Ruining low sec one hotdrop at a time)
Gravity Rush,
Dishonoured: The Knife of Dunwall.
(Waiting for) Metro: Last Light,
Company of Heroes II.
Not a fan of it.
Eve does not need it's fundamentals switched to "Oh man, I am 40k SP shy of Cadillacs IV. Let me pump out a few missions for it." You can say just do it to 10 Million, but the heart of the new age MMO'er will eventually press for 15 Mil, and then 20 Mil.
I wonder if people who barks about not being able to catch a Vet realize that if it take 5 Mil SP to totally max out a frigate, a guy with 50 Mil SP will only be utilizing...GASP...5 Mil of his SP flying frigates...
Not a terribly bad idea, IMO; but first off all it would at least piss off alot of vets and add a whole new dimension to (forced) mission grinding in EvE online (as has been pointed out), and I think there probably are better ways to entice new players into experiencing the game than just handing out ''free levels''.
The OP has talked about her opinion on the subject and the thoughts of a friend of hers, so I would also like to do something similar. I have several friends who like MMO's but most of em do not want to play eve (despite my insistances) on the grounds that they think a vast majority of eve online's content is pvp based and penalties are too harsh.. WHICH IT IS, and I accept it and play the game accordingly, but it evidently scares off some potentional newcomers. But than again it could also hurt / piss off the current player base of EVE who like things the way they are, which leads me to the idea of an additional ''carebear server'' for eve online. (Yeah probably im not the first one to think of that) You get to choose which gameplay you like (classic or carebear) and hopefully nobody gets hurt in the process:D (pun not intended) AND the company gets access to a new player base as well.
Teala, it has been explained carefully and in detail why the gap between "new players" and "veterans" isn't growing (except in the trivial numerical sense) on this forum alone so many times that I'm actually starting to wonder if you're actually the best troll on these forums.
There are a number of fallacies that are explicit in your posts. I'm going to list them out for other people to read if they like, since I know that you will ignore what has been explained to you a dozen times already.
(1) EVE skills work on diminishing returns. You typically get 96% of the advantage for 18% of the SP investment by training a skill to level 4. A new player can very quickly be competent in almost any area that takes his interest. There are a few exceptions to this, like capital ships, that inescapably take at least a year to achieve a reasonable skill level for, but it's definitely good for the game to throttle access to these ships.
(2) You're framing the argument as "new players vs veterans", as if EVE was wholly structured as players competing individually with each other. In fact 1v1 in anything is extremely rare. EVE is largely based on teams of players co-operating. The quality of the team you're in is far more important than how many skills you have at level V. The parts of the game that aren't co-op are mostly structured as a race, not a fight. ie: that 90M SP veteran might be faster than you at mining or missioning, but that doesn't make you any slower. He just makes more ISK than you is all.
(3) The "SP filters" that you keep going on about do exist. Let me parse them out for you: "we only want to recruit players who have been playing for at least a year and know what the hell they're doing outside of hi-sec". Your plan to give people an extra 5-10M SP (or however much) will simply add 5-10M SP to the level of those filters, because they dont want people who have done nothing but endlessly grind missions. They want people with the level of player skill implied by those skill levels. Those SP barriers are actually quite permeable to players who can demonstrate that they're sufficiently competent. They're pretty impervious to those who haven't achieved anything other than being able to clear Sansha Blockade in under 12 minutes.
(4) Speaking of which... why do you want to force new players to grind missions for these SP? Why privilege mission running over every other profession, when mission running is the easiest, least EVE-like and probably least-fun gameplay in the game?
(5) EVE is on of the very very few MMOs that doesn't have a level grind. I can pretty much tell you that most of the people in those "SP filter" corps wouldn't have subscribed if it was based on level grinding; I certainly wouldn't. Those of us with jobs and lives appreciate very much that we can advance our characters interests by playing the game, rather than grinding sub-par PvE content we're not interested in. Your idea would effectively condemn new players to months of grinding missions, and I genuinely can't think of anything that would be more likely to make them quit than that.
(6) You're trying to state that new players can't catch up, when it's trivially obvious to demonstrate that they can, because although the difference in the number of SP might never be closed, any given skill is capped at level 5, and there are a finite number of skills that can apply in any given situation. Therefore a new player can "catch up" to a veteran in any given ship, QED. All you're whining about is that you dont want it to take as long for you as it did for them. You're like the office boy crying that he doesn't get paid as much as the office manager. Well no shit, you just joined - put some time in!
The "7 pillars" of EVE advancement are, in ascending order, the following:
(1) Your ISK and general wealth
(2) Your skillpoints. Yes they are good to have and they do give advantages.
(3) Your in-game assets. This isn't just ships, this includes things like agent/faction standings, bookmarks, etc.
(4) Your friends and contacts in game.
(5) Your experience and knowledge of game mechanics
(6) Your personal player skill
(7) The quality of your corp (and you alliance if you're in one).
Now only the first 2 of those pillars are directly shown in the character sheet. Unfortunately, because most MMO players come from games where the aim of the game is literally to maximise some numbers on your character sheet, they, like you, find EVE extremely frustrating and unfair.
What I'm building up to is this single insight: Skillpoints are not an end in themselves in EVE. They're just a means to an end. The more you have, the more things you can do, but this also applies equally to the other pillars as well, and you can use strength in one to compensate for weakness in another.
So many new players think that they should work on pillars 1-> 7, when actually they should work 7 -> 1.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
A lot of people have already said it, but I'll say it again just to add my vote without touching the poll.
I say low sp chars should be able to do something to increase SP rate, or some way to get more SP. But only missions? F-that. It needs to cover everything, and that may be too much for CCP to chew on and think about when they are working on Incarna right now.
Toucheth the poll, sir! The more that respond, then more weigh the poll has.
CCP, like all developers with a successful MMO that has some years under its belt, regularly looks at how to get new players into the game both in the sense of bringing them into the established community of seasoned players and in getting them the stats/resources they desire to feel comfortable that they can contribute meaningfully to the community.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
This post should be stickied at the top of the forums (especially the 7 Pillars part), it explains so well where SP's really stand in terms of enjoying EVE.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's not just about the skills of your character, it's also about your own training. So you can have all your character skills at level five. But it won't make any difference, because if you've haven't got the knowledge or training to use that character, then you're still going to lose. Even against somebody with less skill points than yourself.
It's also not about how many ship types you can field. It's also about how you use the ship and equipment fitted to it. Different fighting styles suit different people. Eventually the pilot will find a style that they are suitable for, and to get good at it they need to practice. It's like learning to drive a car or flying a jet, you don't enter a learner driver in a F1 race, and you certainly wouldn’t put a rookie pilot in charge of a 5mil dollar fighter jet.
You can talk all you want about giving new pilots extra skill points, but it won't make a blind bit of difference. Especially, if you come up against a vet. Because they’ve got the knowledge to use the skills and character they've taken the time to train up.
To be remotely good at EVE takes time. I've now been in the game six years and I'm still learning. I maybe a vet, but even now after all this time I've still got my weaknesses. Nobody on this planet is good at everything they do, and if anybody did say that I'd call them a liar.
The only way your going to survive in PvP and EVE is through training and practice. You're also going to get frustrated. Sometimes you're going to walk away from the computer wanting to beat your head on the nearest brick wall, that’s all apart of the learning curve.
It's just a shame that people these days just want to take the easy route. Because if you do the training and the work involved and you get good. When you do beat that vet or achieve your goal, it's the best feeling on earth. It feels like you've just won the lotto and that feeling will never go away.
I say hell no......
and the reason is EVE is suppose to be about freedom not freedom after you grind missions to 10 million SP. When i started playing i was purely a miner then i got into pvp when i felt like i had a good income. In that time i never did a mission. I would have hated it if they punished me for not mission running.
Edit - after taking the poll i am very suprised by the number of people who like this idea.
Playing: PO, EVE
Waiting for: WoD
Favourite MMOs: VG, EVE, FE and DDO
Any person who expresses rage and loathing for an MMO is preposterous. He or she is like a person who has put on full armor and attacked a hot fudge sundae.
I'm with Kyleran. Let's sticky Malcanis post to the EvE forums. I think at least 1/2 of my posts are about this very topic. With all the gainsvilleg's of the world...no matter what you try and say...it will either won't be fair, CCP is only looking out for vets, vets don't want newbs to gain, etc.
Mal's list of the 7 pillars makes the most sense of it that I've seen so far. I am to the point I expect to see this question when I log onto this site now.
Great job Malcanis.
E:spell
Playing: BF4/BF:Hardline, Subnautica 7 days to die
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: better games in general
I'm semi-new to EVE and if anything I feel so pressured to advance faster than I should be already... I'm not sure if adding quicker paths to victory is the answer. I currently have about 3mil SP, a lot of which are spread thinly around in different areas of the game.
For me it wasn't the fact that others are so far ahead of me, its that I feel like I need to be so hardcore effecient with my skills that no matter what I'm doing I'm doing the wrong thing and "wasting" my skills. I don't completely hate the idea of giving bonus SP. I do not think missioning should be the only route (although there are research, courier, kill, mining missions people its not just kill).
But I would lower the SP given, and spread it around to each "area". So if you can earn up to 5mil SP you can only earn up to 1mil extra in combat, 1mil in trade, 1mil in mining, etc. Really I think this would help new players a lot more than zerging them into a battle cruiser when they don't fully understand things like transversal velocity, missile damage, resists, optimal vs falloff etc.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
BRILLIANT use of pretty much every diversionary tactic I listed earlier in this thread (post #126). Thanks! I copy/psted above for illustration to the noobs so they won't keep getting fooled by these diversionary tactics from the vets...
GW2 "built from the ground up with microtransactions in mind"
1) Cash->Gems->Gold->Influence->WvWvWBoosts = PAY2WIN
2) Mystic Chests = Crass in-game cash shop advertisements
as a farily new eve player of around 5 months. I would say no. I know that there are people out there flying ships that I wish I could fly or flying ships that I can fly more effectively, But awarding Skill points from mission running is just dumb. I know That if I want to fly a ship I can fly it just as good as anyone else out thier granted it may take me a year to max all the relative skills to 5 but once I do max them out to 5 ill be just as skilled in that ships abilitys as anyone else that has all the skills to five.
The great part of eve is anyone can get in and do what ever they want, Yes skills give other people the advantages in the same things that a new player may have but theres nothing stoping them from doing it and skilling up and doing farily well in anything they want to do in eve. A pvper could train skills for less then 3 days and be a fine asset to any pvp corperation yes hes doing tackling and not strong DPS that you would get outta a megathron, but hes an asset to his friends, A person can log into the game brand new with zero new skills and blast rocks for hours on ends, or jump into a frigate and blast ships in missions, any new pilot can waite a few days and start doing great marketing trades, or building ships, or anything in eve.
The point in eve, is yes you may have 30 million skill points in random skills, that doesnt make you a better pilot then somone that has 10 million skill points focused on a single ship. giving an extra free 10 million skill points isnt gonna incress new players, if they dont like the game or focused on getting skill points now there not gonna like it 10 million free skill points later.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Wow I said I was done with this thread but I guess I am not, becuase once again it seems somone is making it sound like I am advocating just giving new players 10 mil SP.
THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID.
It would still take a plyer time to earn the 10mil SP, it just wouldn't takea whole frikking year or more.
As for your comment, " A pvper could train skills for less then 3 days and be a fine asset to any pvp corperation ", right...I've talked about people like you coming on this thread and blowing smoke up potential players nethers and here you go and prove my point. No...zero....zilch...good PvP corp will even consider a such a noob pilot. That player might, might, get into a noob corp...but he'll be hating it and probably drop the game when he realizes that joining that noob corp will bring nothing but headaches to him when they refuse to replinish all the ships he'll be losing. Training for 72hrs in EVE won't even net you 200k SP for a noob. What are you going to do for a corp. Fly a t1 frigate with gunnery skills at level 2, motion prediction at level 2, small (x type) turrets at level 2, maybe have frigate to level 3, and maybe have what...let me see....have propulsion jamming to level 1, electronics to level 3(need that atleast to 3to even get propulsion jamming skill). A couple of other skills, mechanic to level 2, and engineering to level 2. Unless you spent skill points in cybernetics to level 3 you cannot even get into beta implants(which can give you +3 to your atributes) because I doubt a noob corp is willing to spend the 25+ mil to get you into them, and then...unless you have earned enough faction points for that particular station you are playing out of you cannot get a jump clone so getting those level 3's would be a waste of time - even though they would give you the ability to learn faster. So you would most likely barely be scrapping out 150k SP in 72hrs as a noob.
Wow...I can go on and on...
I am advocating allowing new players some means of earning SP faster than they do now so that they are not so far behind the players that have been playing for 3+ years and have upwards of 30+ mil SP. Allowing a new player, or any player with less than 10mil SP, would allow that player to get upto speed faster than they do now.
I REPEAT.
Nobody is advocating "giving" anyone anything for free....they would still have to "EARN IT!" It just wouldn't take a year of subscription fees to get it. It might take 6 months, but no 12+!
Then you will just be stagnating the game. Even CCP has admitted that they wish the game could be more new player friendly than what it is. That is why over the years they have tried to remedy that. Hopefully, they will figure out a new way to enable new players a better chance to catch up. Maybe they could increase a new players learning speed for the first 10 mil SP instead of the current 900k. That would go a long way to helping get new players to stay past their 15 day trial.
They want it more player friendly because most people when they join EVE come in with the mindset of I need to be X lvl so I can join Y guild so I can participate in End-game Content Z. They then take that mind set like you have and say that I need 10, 20, 300mil Sp or whatever the flavor of the argument is for that day in order to join a PvP corp to compete in the "end-game" EvE PVP. Problem is that just isn't nessicary, Yes most Null-sec Alliances have a 30mil SP requirement, It has nothing to do with those SP being required to complete but most don't want to deal with the issue of a newer player coming out then either; acting like an idiot, leaving the game since they have no ties to it yet, or being a spy.
Now combine that with players not quite grasping how the game works or what they can do with thier skill points is the real problem. You want to help people out create a PvP tutorial where the player in the T1 inty hull ship has to tackle a BS lobbing torps while an NPC allys do the damage to kill them, and better yet put 2 of those NPCs out there and have one of them warp away deep in structure. Do similiar ones with Damps, Tracking disruptors, and ECM. Show them the benefit that a new player in an easily trained Blackbird, Celestis, or Arbitrator can do. Show them the power that teamwork has over SP.
Also start adding sleeper AI to new missions so they become a challange that requires Teamwork and risk. Most players first experience in EvE combat is the NPC only variety of Tank vs Gank. Things like spider tanks and EWAR are unheard of by players for a long time and the benefit they have on a fleet. The first 10, 20 or whatever skillpoints don't matter its the fact that the current introduction to eve is very, well, boring.
Those that are upset they never will catch up won't make it in EvE to begin with, EvE is not a game for those who shy away from obstacles, it's about imbracing them. If thier first response is crap, I'm behind, I'm screwed what does it matter. If they are given a billion SP, they'll go crap i don't have the ISK reserve they do, I'm screwed why play.
EVE already has the first 1.6mill SP trained at double speed, that is a good enough start for new players considering all players now have a flat +10 to all attributes thanks to the removal of the learning skills. Any new addition would just be an annoyance to the existing EVE population and besides, the Universe of New Eden is not a place for people to be babysit.
"Not meaning to anger anyone with this thread, though I know in these forums its quite impossible. You can say "I enjoy vanilla ice cream" and still have 50 posts of angry, hot-tempered people who have nothing better to do than argue with you." - Dirkzen
A better way to do it would be to just enhance the training speed boost for newbies. Something like 5x to 1M then 4x to 2M then 3x to 3M then 2x to 4M, this will get new players quickly into 4M SP which is a much more suitable number than 1.6M nowadays.
I'm with the OP on this issue. One of the only reasons I find myself not getting sucked into EVE is the fact I can never catch up to vets who started before me regardless of how much effort I put into playing. I am a competitive gamer, I like fair fights that are determined by player skill, not by the amount of skills a player has obtained through months of AFK skill grinding while paying the sub to play.
I have an EVE account, really loved the game... but again if I can't catch up at least a little to be able to do something semi-fun and / or useful to a guild why should I play?
I know EVE is a game that likely gets better through time as you gain skills... but damn even 3 months to get to the basics of a PvP build is a lot of time just to get to the point of having some fun.
Full Sail University - Game Design
Sure they would earn the 10m sp's and then what, there gonna complain and moan that they have to sit around and waite for more SP. This Is like putting down a cake infront of a person letting them take 5 bites, and then pulling it away and saying now you have to waite 10 min for the next bite. 15 for the following and 25 for the last. Sure the current way is take a bite waite a min, take another bite waite 2 min take another bite waite 5 min take another bite waite 10 min take another bite waite 15 min take last bite after 25 min. but atleast you know what your getting into at the start, instead of Hey hear do missions you get SP's and ISK. then take it away when they get to 10 million.
And yes you can easly fly a T1 frigate with crappy blasters and have a point to put on somone and help tackle for any corp. sure you might not go into some amazing corp right off the bat but you can join up with a good enough corp to teach you the ropes of how the game works in a pvp aspect. With less then 3 million skill points I was welcomed into The Orphanage just fine and last I heard there one of the biggest Merc Aliances around. I left them in good standings because I wanted to presue a diffrent life then high sec war.