In SWTOR they step forward again, even if people choose not to see it. The crafting system (and gear system for that matter) is much different than WoW, the companion system is much different than WoW, the alignment system is much different than WoW. The combat is even a step forward: Cover classes, LOS detection and mitigation, use of environment, no auto attack, choreographed battles.
*sigh*
Ok, let's try once more: How is any of this a step forward for MASSIVELY MULTIPLAYER games?
Is it more massive? No. Is it more multiplayer? No. So, is it a step forward for MMOs that players just "chose not to see"? No. There is simply nothing to see here other than WoW mixed with a Bioware RPG. It doesn't change or add depth to the way people play and interact with and each other and the game environment in general.
*sigh*
You conveniently left off the last 3 letters of this website's title. MMORPG.
Is it more RPG? YES! That's what BioWare is known for. RPG. So yes, it absolutely adds to depth and the way people play. Gone are the days of running up to every quest giver in an area, right clicking them all and immediately accepting their quests without bothring to read the story. Unfortunatley that's what gamers in this genre have devolved into, due to the game design of WoW and every other MMO to come before/after. But BioWare is changing that.
"...BioWare... putting the RPG back into MMORPG's..."
Except that nobody ever said that SWTOR is lacking in the RPG department. And yes, compared to ~7 years old WoW, it indeed adds some nice stuff like more story and voice-overs. But other MMOs offer just the same and improve the MMO part as well. So what's the big fuzz?
Examples? What other games are fully VO? What other games give you a choice in quest dialogue? What other MMORPG has a story for your character that runs from level 1 to the end game? No, other MMOs do NOT offer just the same.
AoC actually has 2 1/2 out of those 3.. it's voice acted through all of tortage, otherwise it'd get the full 3.0.
The dialogue choice is somewhat meaningful but ultimately, not the reason why you play a game. Voice acting is cool and all, but I found myself skipping through dialogue at a certain point in other, similar games. It may be many people's cup of tea, but VO isn't really my cup of tea.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing. Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it. Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago. Currently Playing: Champions Online.
AoC actually has 2 1/2 out of those 3.. it's voice acted through all of tortage, otherwise it'd get the full 3.0.
The dialogue choice is somewhat meaningful but ultimately, not the reason why you play a game. Voice acting is cool and all, but I found myself skipping through dialogue at a certain point in other, similar games. It may be many people's cup of tea, but VO isn't really my cup of tea.
Yes, I know about the AoC starting area but I've heard that it's very short. As for the dialogue choice I haven't heard that it is in anyway meaningful. Nor have I heard that it has a story specific for each class that runs through the whole length of the game.
At the beginning of the TOR phenomenon, the one major complaint and worry from this community was whether or not TOR would be a traditional MMO or something like GW or AOC.
Now the problem is that TOR is a MMO in the traditional sense.
I'm aware some may have wanted something else all along, some are happy with what's presented, some just don't care.
That's really not what I'm adressing. I just find it ironic ( in a funny way), that in the begining the complaint and major worry of the time was it wouldn't be an MMO. Now the big complaint is that it's to much like an MMO.
All focus was on an acronym back then (when it mattered) no focus was on usable input about what people wanted in their MMO(s). I think it's safe to assume this is what you get when that happens.
NO!! its not too much like an mmo and no its not that it isnt an mmo.. the problem lies with the fact its the same kind of mmo as wow.. and thats what people dont want to see. (people are bored with wow clones)
wether swtor is an mmo or not is erelevant, its what kind of mmo it is that matters.. its just another wow clone. and no wow is not a traditional mmo. wow is the scurge of mmo's and the reason why all mmo's today are the same thing and nothing new is being released.
Like it or not, Wow has redefinied what a traditional MMO is.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing. Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it. Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago. Currently Playing: Champions Online.
At the beginning of the TOR phenomenon, the one major complaint and worry from this community was whether or not TOR would be a traditional MMO or something like GW or AOC.
Now the problem is that TOR is a MMO in the traditional sense.
I'm aware some may have wanted something else all along, some are happy with what's presented, some just don't care.
That's really not what I'm adressing. I just find it ironic ( in a funny way), that in the begining the complaint and major worry of the time was it wouldn't be an MMO. Now the big complaint is that it's to much like an MMO.
All focus was on an acronym back then (when it mattered) no focus was on usable input about what people wanted in their MMO(s). I think it's safe to assume this is what you get when that happens.
NO!! its not too much like an mmo and no its not that it isnt an mmo.. the problem lies with the fact its the same kind of mmo as wow.. and thats what people dont want to see. (people are bored with wow clones)
wether swtor is an mmo or not is erelevant, its what kind of mmo it is that matters.. its just another wow clone. and no wow is not a traditional mmo. wow is the scurge of mmo's and the reason why all mmo's today are the same thing and nothing new is being released.
I'm growing tired of addressing this one point out of every point made within this thread, this will be the last time.
Also is there a need to remind anyone that this community does not like WOW clones? No
As with the others who missed my point , you're missing the fact that in the subject of my post it is irrelevant what type of MMO TOR is. My point is in the begining no one was saying hey Bioware do something different than WOW. The major question was is TOR an MMO. This concern and misinformation continued for quite a while. So long in fact the mods had to step in and create a sticky thread on the subject.
I just find it funny that once it became obvious TOR was an MMO (which wasn't all that long ago) all focus turned to it's like WOW! In other words it's what the industry has adopted as todays traditional MMO.
Now strip this all down into two sentences, first being: In the begining the biggest complaint was TOR won't be an MMO. Second being: Now the problem is TOR didn't deviate far enough away from what has become todays MMO.
Again (for the third or forth time) I'll speak seriously about the issue here. The issue I'm addressing isn't what TOR is today, it's what the major complaint of yesterday was. Semantics and acronyms were far to important to people to drop such a discussion and focus their thoughts on what was important. Like what they actually did want from TOR, aside from it being an MMO, because it was going to be an MMO all along.
I hope that clears that up for you.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
@OP: yes, it's kind of ironic, that at first people were ranting and being so sure about how SWTOR wouldn't be an MMORPG, and now that argument is hard to maintain reasonably with a straight face without people starting to look at you funnily, the argument turns into 'but SWTOR is too much of an MMORPG of a design that we're familiar with'.
That's irony to me indeed.
Of course, the group of people claiming that SWTOR would 'definitely, absolutely' not be an MMORPG aren't all the same people that are complaining about SWTOR being too much of the familiar MMORPG mold. But, there are enough people who belonged to both groups and have spouted both those viewpoints in both situations with a straight face.
Of course, take even a further a step back and things become a lot clearer:
- it isn't about the arguments, it's about how they dislike SWTOR for whatever reason and arguments are found along the way to be used as tools to keep on criticising and bashing SWTOR, to be discarded and replaced by other arguments when they've been debunked or proven false.
You only have to look at former arguments, how the budget was 300 million dollars, how there was no endgame content only story and rerolling, how you couldn't play with others in a group, how the worlds would be as small and restricted as in DA:O and Mass Effect, etc, etc.
As I said, for most of those serial TOR bashers it isn't really about those arguments, but about their dislike of SWTOR that has formed for sometimes wholly different reasons: in many of those cases for example for the simple fact that it won't allow them to play in a Star Wars universe in the way that SWG did for them, or for the reason that it doesn't seem different enough to help them fix their MMO burnout or jadedness that has prevented them from enjoying any MMO for the past couple of years.
Also, in this way their statement can be true in their mind on both accounts: they don't regard SWTOR as a true MMORPG just as little as they regard other themepark oriented, non-sandbox MMORPG's as real MMORPG's, namely the sandbox/virtual world kind that they're looking for.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Of course, take even a further a step back and things become a lot clearer:
- it isn't about the arguments, it's about how they dislike SWTOR for whatever reason and arguments are found along the way to be used as tools to keep on criticising and bashing SWTOR, to be discarded and replaced by other arguments when they've been debunked or proven false.
You only have to look at former arguments, how the budget was 300 million dollars, how there was no endgame content only story and rerolling, how you couldn't play with others in a group, how the worlds would be as small and restricted as in DA:O and Mass Effect, etc, etc.
As I said, for most of those serial TOR bashers it isn't really about those arguments, but about their dislike of SWTOR that has formed for sometimes wholly different reasons: in many of those cases for example for the simple fact that it won't allow them to play in a Star Wars universe in the way that SWG did for them, or for the reason that it doesn't seem different enough to help them fix their MMO burnout or jadedness that has prevented them from enjoying any MMO for the past couple of years.
Also, in this way their statement can be true in their mind on both accounts: they don't regard SWTOR as a true MMORPG just as little as they regard other themepark oriented, non-sandbox MMORPG's as real MMORPG's, namely the sandbox/virtual world kind that they're looking for.
I couldn't agree here anymore than I do. That's exactly the type of poster I was hinting at in my OP, I just tried to stay away from calling any segment of posters out. These people don't just do this to TOR they do it to any game that isn't the second coming of UO or SWG.
I know I used to be one of them myself in a sense, though I've realized it's pointless and counter-productive to having fun.
Just look at the OP-piece put out recently on player expectations and demands, that thread is full of them. All claiming no fault of their own, they can demand all they want, and there's no reason to show appreciation to the devs attempting to fill their boredom. That more than anything else shows the level they've degraded to in seeking what most will never find, perfection.
Not perfection in a sense of a perfect flawless product, but perfection in something being perfectly attuned to their wants and desires. It just isn't going to happen.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
In the end this is basically what I am saying, you find no irony in that? It just shows the problem with working in this genre, it's a front that is just too hard to please.
Look at feedback from AOC, and look at feed back all around the industry. You can't stray away from the norm but you also can't copy it, you can't add new things to it, and you can't streamline it, you can't pay homage to it. You simply can't do anything with it. You might as well not even make it. Unless you remake it, but then what happens, where'd the MMORPG GOOO!?!?!!!?
Uhg sorry I'm just venting.
Why would I find irony?
First it was doubts that it would be like an MMO. Then when people found out it was going to be like an MMO, they were dissappointed that it wasn't really anything new or different.
"Irony, a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated."
In short demanding something over and over again, then denouncing it when you get it.
If people complained about the first thing and then complained about the second thing then they obviously didn't get what they demanded. So therefore there is no irony to be found.
People were also merely DOUBTING that TOR would be an MMO. People also didn't want a standard quest and raid based themepark. Some people did want that and some people didn't. There isn't any irony in people not getting what they want.
Oh, I forgot that entirely different groups of "people" are a single entity. My mistake.
In the end this is basically what I am saying, you find no irony in that? It just shows the problem with working in this genre, it's a front that is just too hard to please.
Look at feedback from AOC, and look at feed back all around the industry. You can't stray away from the norm but you also can't copy it, you can't add new things to it, and you can't streamline it, you can't pay homage to it. You simply can't do anything with it. You might as well not even make it. Unless you remake it, but then what happens, where'd the MMORPG GOOO!?!?!!!?
Uhg sorry I'm just venting.
Why would I find irony?
First it was doubts that it would be like an MMO. Then when people found out it was going to be like an MMO, they were dissappointed that it wasn't really anything new or different.
"Irony, a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated."
In short demanding something over and over again, then denouncing it when you get it.
If people complained about the first thing and then complained about the second thing then they obviously didn't get what they demanded. So therefore there is no irony to be found.
People were also merely DOUBTING that TOR would be an MMO. People also didn't want a standard quest and raid based themepark. Some people did want that and some people didn't. There isn't any irony in people not getting what they want.
Oh, I forgot that entirely different groups of "people" are a single entity. My mistake.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
If people complained about the first thing and then complained about the second thing then they obviously didn't get what they demanded. So therefore there is no irony to be found.
People were also merely DOUBTING that TOR would be an MMO. People also didn't want a standard quest and raid based themepark. Some people did want that and some people didn't. There isn't any irony in people not getting what they want.
Oh, I forgot that entirely different groups of "people" are a single entity. My mistake.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
My point still stands.
I thought he was talking to me there I could be wrong though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
If people complained about the first thing and then complained about the second thing then they obviously didn't get what they demanded. So therefore there is no irony to be found.
People were also merely DOUBTING that TOR would be an MMO. People also didn't want a standard quest and raid based themepark. Some people did want that and some people didn't. There isn't any irony in people not getting what they want.
Oh, I forgot that entirely different groups of "people" are a single entity. My mistake.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
My point still stands.
I thought he was talking to me there I could be wrong though.
It did seem to me that he was talking to you but he did quote me.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
My point still stands.
Ok, who are these people? Because I didn't see really anyone flip-flopping like that. Seems to me you are conflating two largely different groups of people into one group when the actual overlap is likely very, very small.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
My point still stands.
Ok, who are these people? Because I didn't see really anyone flip-flopping like that.
Nobody was flip-flopping.
At first it was doubt that the game would be like an MMO.
Then when they did find out it would be like an MMO they were hoping it would be amazing and new. The people I was talking about are the ones who doubted at first and then were dissappointed that it uses the same standard formula. They didn't get what they wanted.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
My point still stands.
Ok, who are these people? Because I didn't see really anyone flip-flopping like that.
Nobody was flip-flopping.
At first it was doubt that the game would be like an MMO.
Then when they did find out it would be like an MMO they were hoping it would be amazing and new. The people I was talking about are the ones who doubted at first and then were dissappointed that it uses the same standard formula. They didn't get what they wanted.
Who are "they"? Because you say there is this group of people that didn't think it would be an MMO at all, then decided they didn't like it as an MMO. Can you name anyone that felt this way? I certainly know both complaints existed, but it is far from clear that both complaints had a lot of overlap in who was giving them.
Myself, for example, I didn't doubt it would be an MMO, but do admit I find the route they have taken a bit of a travesty (not unusual in anything related to Star Wars, I suppose). I certainly don't know of anyone off-hand who felt the first way and then the second and I think they were largely distinct groups.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
My point still stands.
Ok, who are these people? Because I didn't see really anyone flip-flopping like that.
Nobody was flip-flopping.
At first it was doubt that the game would be like an MMO.
Then when they did find out it would be like an MMO they were hoping it would be amazing and new. The people I was talking about are the ones who doubted at first and then were dissappointed that it uses the same standard formula. They didn't get what they wanted.
Who are "they"? Because you say there is this group of people that didn't think it would be an MMO at all, then decided they didn't like it as an MMO. Can you name anyone that felt this way? I certainly know both complaints existed, but it is far from clear that both complaints had a lot of overlap in who was giving them.
Myself, for example, I didn't doubt it would be an MMO, but do admit I find the route they have taken a bit of a travesty (not unusual in anything related to Star Wars, I suppose). I certainly don't know of anyone off-hand who felt the first way and then the second and I think they were largely distinct groups.
That overlap is the only group of people I'm talking about. No more, no less.
No, I can't name names. I don't care about individual people and they are of no importance in this discussion. Groups are what matters here, not individuals.
Ok, who are these people? Because I didn't see really anyone flip-flopping like that. Seems to me you are conflating two largely different groups of people into one group when the actual overlap is likely very, very small.
I really don't know if there is overlap or not, I'm bad with names though, the only ones I remember are those I see regularly or saw in the SWG Vet refuge when it was created ( I spent time with a lot of them on different sites).
I don't think individual groups are important just the opinions being stated. Which ever is the loudest at a given time, is what I go by on what's the hot topic of today. It makes things much simpler, especially with things like: understanding where my OP was coming from.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess I don't see the point then. There's no evidence this is a remotely sizable group of people that we're talking about here. In all likelihood the vast majority of both complaints came from two very different groups of people (or were stated clearly as to avoid any irony -- such as "I don't like heavy instancing"). One could pick almost anything anywhere and find some vanishingly small group of people that behaved inconsistently. Tiny groups are hardly something that affect developers though.
I guess I don't see the point then. There's no evidence this is a remotely sizable group of people that we're talking about here. In all likelihood the vast majority of both complaints came from two very different groups of people (or were stated clearly as to avoid any irony -- such as "I don't like heavy instancing"). One could pick almost anything anywhere and find some vanishingly small group of people that behaved inconsistently. Tiny groups are hardly something that affect developers though.
Basically, take those two groups or three, four or whatever the number; and count their similar posts as the hot topic. In this case that would be, all focus on if TOR is an MMO or not.
Now take whatever groups of people who are speaking today in mass about it being a MMO. They are todays hot topic.
The point I'm focusing on are these hot topics, and how they contradict one another not those saying them, as indivdually they could and most likely do all want different things.
That's basically the Joke I was presenting, which it was obviously a horrible one, because I haven't seen one "haha funny" yet . It was all serious business, In the end it did carry with it a long debate that stayed civil for the most part, and that's what matters most anyway.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess I don't see the point then. There's no evidence this is a remotely sizable group of people that we're talking about here. In all likelihood the vast majority of both complaints came from two very different groups of people (or were stated clearly as to avoid any irony -- such as "I don't like heavy instancing"). One could pick almost anything anywhere and find some vanishingly small group of people that behaved inconsistently. Tiny groups are hardly something that affect developers though.
I disagree with you. First you have no proof at all that they're completely different groups.
Second, I see quite some sandbox loving/themepark hating posters hop in on these TOR forums from time to time of which quite a number doubted/were certain that SWTOR wasn't a true MMORPG, and quite a number of that group of sandbox loving/themepark hating posters with a lot of the same names that you see now claim that SWTOR is too much of the kind of MMORPG we've seen before.
So yes, common sense dictates that there is at least some overlap, and no, I'm not going to do work for you and spend hours of digging through a multitude of threads to prove that point. Either you believe it or not, whatever you feel comfortable with.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I disagree with you. First you have no proof at all that they're completely different groups.
Second, I see quite some sandbox loving/themepark hating posters hop in on these TOR forums from time to time of which quite a number doubted/were certain that SWTOR wasn't a true MMORPG, and quite a number of that group of sandbox loving/themepark hating posters with a lot of the same names that you see now claim that SWTOR is too much of the kind of MMORPG we've seen before.
So yes, common sense dictates that there is at least some overlap, and no, I'm not going to do work for you and spend hours of digging through a multitude of threads to prove that point. Either you believe it or not, whatever you feel comfortable with.
I think you have to look a little further than only the sandbox crowd though, and look more at the number of jaded gamers out there in general. There's most definitely many sub groups in that lump, DAOC players to UO players and even some EQ players. They're most certainly not all looking for the same thing, they just have one opinion they all agree with. Everything but what they like is crap.
They will go out of their way to find any excuse to bash a game or developer, justifiable or not.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
At the beginning of the TOR phenomenon, the one major complaint and worry from this community was whether or not TOR would be a traditional MMO or something like GW or AOC.
Now the problem is that TOR is a MMO in the traditional sense.
I'm aware some may have wanted something else all along, some are happy with what's presented, some just don't care.
That's really not what I'm adressing. I just find it ironic ( in a funny way), that in the begining the complaint and major worry of the time was it wouldn't be an MMO. Now the big complaint is that it's to much like an MMO.
All focus was on an acronym back then (when it mattered) no focus was on usable input about what people wanted in their MMO(s). I think it's safe to assume this is what you get when that happens.
I wouldn't read too much into what you read here it is not representative at all. If you took note of most of the forumns here the are comprised of the dissaalusioned or people laughing at the dissalusioned.
There's most definitely many sub groups in that lump, DAOC players to UO players and even some EQ players. They're most certainly not all looking for the same thing, they just have one opinion they all agree with. Everything but what they like is crap.
They will go out of their way to find any excuse to bash a game or developer, justifiable or not.
Well, maybe you just misinterpret that a little. F.e. me, I don't think it's all "crap", and I'm not looking for "perfection", either. I enjoyed plenty of Single Player mainstream games during the last years, like Portal 2, Fallout NV, Stalker, GTA4, Mass Effect 1, etc. There's something for everyone, lots of variety. There, you won't find that kind of hate that exists in MMO communites.
But for some reason, the MMO industry doesn't work like the SP industry. There's hardly any variety or choice. If you want something other than a WoW-variant - sucks to be you.
Naturally, many people will rage over every new game that is another WoW-variant. Especially if it's potentially "the next big thing" like SWTOR, which means it may become the copy-and-paste template for another 5 years. And especially if its fanboy-army will stubbornly repeat whatever EA's marketing tells them. Like "it's the first fully-voiced MMO", even though every upcoming MMO is either fully or mostly voiced as well.
The haters may be just as bad, but well, I can't blame them. Am I a hater as well, hoping that SWTOR will "fail"? Honestly, yes. Sort of.
It's not that I really hate it, I actually like Bioware a lot, and the game will probably be decent. It just happens that the SWTOR vs GW2 battle will decide what MMOs will look like in the near future. Like it or not, SWTOR is iconc for how the industry currently works, and if it comes out on top, that will further support the status quo. That thought just scares and angers a lot of people. And TSW may get crushed between the giants altogether, which it really doesn't deserve...
In the end this is basically what I am saying, you find no irony in that? It just shows the problem with working in this genre, it's a front that is just too hard to please.
Look at feedback from AOC, and look at feed back all around the industry. You can't stray away from the norm but you also can't copy it, you can't add new things to it, and you can't streamline it, you can't pay homage to it. You simply can't do anything with it. You might as well not even make it. Unless you remake it, but then what happens, where'd the MMORPG GOOO!?!?!!!?
Uhg sorry I'm just venting.
I liked AoC, their biggest issue was and still is a very limited selection of passtimes at level cap.
Beyond that I love the game, the shield system in combat has never really worked fluidly but I really enjoy the combat combos system.
So far in SWTOR 90% of what I see makes me dissapointed. Dissapointed in the use of the IP and dissapointedi n Bioware. This is the company that re-invented & rejuvenated the D&D CRPG franchise first with Baldurs Gate then with NWN and who later blew us away with KOTOR (though the consoley UI sucked).
Given Bioware's track record I was just expecting more, spaceflight as a shooter on rails was probably the most disheartening single piece of news they gave us, I was really just expecting more & expecting some innovation and re-invention of their first MMO offering as we have seen in other Bioware titles. I will probably still buy the game because I am a mad Star Wars fan and a big Bioware fan and I know they will at least craft something worthy of time spent on the "storyline" (AKA single player experience). But beyond that I doubt I will be a longtime subscriber, infact I would guess SWTOR is unlikely to keep me hooked for more than a quarter of the time AoC did.
Say what you like but I am dissapointed.
Being disappointed is fine and understandable, I will never criticize based on disappointment alone. There's no reason to, we all like different things.
My commentary is really based on what seems to be a can't win scenario in this industry right now. I'm definitely not degrading those who dislike TOR. I'm also not saying there's no reason to dislike TOR, I'm sure there are plenty of reasons based on taste alone.
What I meant when referencing AOC feedback was, look at feedback from AOC and apply it to TOR. It addresses a lot of those complaints. Large worlds and little use of instancing, focus on keeping areas filled with players, fully voiced NPCS from start to finish, be communicative, ask for feedback, polish before release. I mean all in all this is taking what AOC was (aside from combat) and improving on it, well based on what MMO players want err wanted.
This is another thing I should point out, people also have to consider how long an MMO is in development. What were hot topics when TOR was in major conceptual development? Once the concept is finalized there's little room for turning back. Well if you ever want to release that is. TOR addresses a lot of issues Themepark games had at that time.
Three years ago was the hot topic MMO combat and how stale it is? Four years ago was the hot topic, we all want what GW2 is going to have? WHat about 5 years ago? Hot topics change that's why they're referred to as hot, industry buzz also changes. If we're ever going to like anything as a community we need to slow down. This isn't the console market, our games take far longer to create, yet we have not slowed down our demand for innovation.
Agreed on all points. I must admit I had not looked at SWTOR in terms of it filling all the gaps players and reviewers took issue with in AoC. With that in mind Bioware seems to have covered all those major holes although endgame activities we have not heard much about.
Again we come back to "what the MMO community demands" Vs "what the MMO community will actually support" which are clearly 2 very different things and the later is what 90% of developers are chasing while the 10% who dare to be different are doomed to becoming small subscriber niche games, eventual F2P conversions or worst of all extinct.
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Examples? What other games are fully VO? What other games give you a choice in quest dialogue? What other MMORPG has a story for your character that runs from level 1 to the end game? No, other MMOs do NOT offer just the same.
AoC actually has 2 1/2 out of those 3.. it's voice acted through all of tortage, otherwise it'd get the full 3.0.
The dialogue choice is somewhat meaningful but ultimately, not the reason why you play a game. Voice acting is cool and all, but I found myself skipping through dialogue at a certain point in other, similar games. It may be many people's cup of tea, but VO isn't really my cup of tea.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing.
Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it.
Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago.
Currently Playing: Champions Online.
Yes, I know about the AoC starting area but I've heard that it's very short. As for the dialogue choice I haven't heard that it is in anyway meaningful. Nor have I heard that it has a story specific for each class that runs through the whole length of the game.
NO!! its not too much like an mmo and no its not that it isnt an mmo.. the problem lies with the fact its the same kind of mmo as wow.. and thats what people dont want to see. (people are bored with wow clones)
wether swtor is an mmo or not is erelevant, its what kind of mmo it is that matters.. its just another wow clone. and no wow is not a traditional mmo. wow is the scurge of mmo's and the reason why all mmo's today are the same thing and nothing new is being released.
Like it or not, Wow has redefinied what a traditional MMO is.
Currently Watching: TSW. << Very Eager for a Beta invite. Have experience with Beta Testing.
Not personally a big fan of raiding or current pve endgame mmo philosophy. Nothing wrong with it, I just sort of burnt out on it.
Hardcore raider in wow from Launch to.. about 7 months ago.
Currently Playing: Champions Online.
I'm growing tired of addressing this one point out of every point made within this thread, this will be the last time.
Also is there a need to remind anyone that this community does not like WOW clones? No
As with the others who missed my point , you're missing the fact that in the subject of my post it is irrelevant what type of MMO TOR is. My point is in the begining no one was saying hey Bioware do something different than WOW. The major question was is TOR an MMO. This concern and misinformation continued for quite a while. So long in fact the mods had to step in and create a sticky thread on the subject.
I just find it funny that once it became obvious TOR was an MMO (which wasn't all that long ago) all focus turned to it's like WOW! In other words it's what the industry has adopted as todays traditional MMO.
Now strip this all down into two sentences, first being: In the begining the biggest complaint was TOR won't be an MMO. Second being: Now the problem is TOR didn't deviate far enough away from what has become todays MMO.
Again (for the third or forth time) I'll speak seriously about the issue here. The issue I'm addressing isn't what TOR is today, it's what the major complaint of yesterday was. Semantics and acronyms were far to important to people to drop such a discussion and focus their thoughts on what was important. Like what they actually did want from TOR, aside from it being an MMO, because it was going to be an MMO all along.
I hope that clears that up for you.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
@OP: yes, it's kind of ironic, that at first people were ranting and being so sure about how SWTOR wouldn't be an MMORPG, and now that argument is hard to maintain reasonably with a straight face without people starting to look at you funnily, the argument turns into 'but SWTOR is too much of an MMORPG of a design that we're familiar with'.
That's irony to me indeed.
Of course, the group of people claiming that SWTOR would 'definitely, absolutely' not be an MMORPG aren't all the same people that are complaining about SWTOR being too much of the familiar MMORPG mold. But, there are enough people who belonged to both groups and have spouted both those viewpoints in both situations with a straight face.
Of course, take even a further a step back and things become a lot clearer:
- it isn't about the arguments, it's about how they dislike SWTOR for whatever reason and arguments are found along the way to be used as tools to keep on criticising and bashing SWTOR, to be discarded and replaced by other arguments when they've been debunked or proven false.
You only have to look at former arguments, how the budget was 300 million dollars, how there was no endgame content only story and rerolling, how you couldn't play with others in a group, how the worlds would be as small and restricted as in DA:O and Mass Effect, etc, etc.
As I said, for most of those serial TOR bashers it isn't really about those arguments, but about their dislike of SWTOR that has formed for sometimes wholly different reasons: in many of those cases for example for the simple fact that it won't allow them to play in a Star Wars universe in the way that SWG did for them, or for the reason that it doesn't seem different enough to help them fix their MMO burnout or jadedness that has prevented them from enjoying any MMO for the past couple of years.
Also, in this way their statement can be true in their mind on both accounts: they don't regard SWTOR as a true MMORPG just as little as they regard other themepark oriented, non-sandbox MMORPG's as real MMORPG's, namely the sandbox/virtual world kind that they're looking for.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
^ That's an EXCELLENT post. Sadly, it could be copied, with game names substituted, and placed in pretty much every game forum on MMORPG!
I couldn't agree here anymore than I do. That's exactly the type of poster I was hinting at in my OP, I just tried to stay away from calling any segment of posters out. These people don't just do this to TOR they do it to any game that isn't the second coming of UO or SWG.
I know I used to be one of them myself in a sense, though I've realized it's pointless and counter-productive to having fun.
Just look at the OP-piece put out recently on player expectations and demands, that thread is full of them. All claiming no fault of their own, they can demand all they want, and there's no reason to show appreciation to the devs attempting to fill their boredom. That more than anything else shows the level they've degraded to in seeking what most will never find, perfection.
Not perfection in a sense of a perfect flawless product, but perfection in something being perfectly attuned to their wants and desires. It just isn't going to happen.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Oh, I forgot that entirely different groups of "people" are a single entity. My mistake.
Reading is nice, you should try it some time. I was only talking about 1 group of people. I wasn't talking about the people who weren't disappointed in TOR or people who doubted TOR being an MMO.
My point still stands.
I thought he was talking to me there
I could be wrong though.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
It did seem to me that he was talking to you but he did quote me.
Ok, who are these people? Because I didn't see really anyone flip-flopping like that. Seems to me you are conflating two largely different groups of people into one group when the actual overlap is likely very, very small.
Nobody was flip-flopping.
At first it was doubt that the game would be like an MMO.
Then when they did find out it would be like an MMO they were hoping it would be amazing and new. The people I was talking about are the ones who doubted at first and then were dissappointed that it uses the same standard formula. They didn't get what they wanted.
Who are "they"? Because you say there is this group of people that didn't think it would be an MMO at all, then decided they didn't like it as an MMO. Can you name anyone that felt this way? I certainly know both complaints existed, but it is far from clear that both complaints had a lot of overlap in who was giving them.
Myself, for example, I didn't doubt it would be an MMO, but do admit I find the route they have taken a bit of a travesty (not unusual in anything related to Star Wars, I suppose). I certainly don't know of anyone off-hand who felt the first way and then the second and I think they were largely distinct groups.
That overlap is the only group of people I'm talking about. No more, no less.
No, I can't name names. I don't care about individual people and they are of no importance in this discussion. Groups are what matters here, not individuals.
I really don't know if there is overlap or not, I'm bad with names though, the only ones I remember are those I see regularly or saw in the SWG Vet refuge when it was created ( I spent time with a lot of them on different sites).
I don't think individual groups are important just the opinions being stated. Which ever is the loudest at a given time, is what I go by on what's the hot topic of today. It makes things much simpler, especially with things like: understanding where my OP was coming from.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I guess I don't see the point then. There's no evidence this is a remotely sizable group of people that we're talking about here. In all likelihood the vast majority of both complaints came from two very different groups of people (or were stated clearly as to avoid any irony -- such as "I don't like heavy instancing"). One could pick almost anything anywhere and find some vanishingly small group of people that behaved inconsistently. Tiny groups are hardly something that affect developers though.
Basically, take those two groups or three, four or whatever the number; and count their similar posts as the hot topic. In this case that would be, all focus on if TOR is an MMO or not.
Now take whatever groups of people who are speaking today in mass about it being a MMO. They are todays hot topic.
The point I'm focusing on are these hot topics, and how they contradict one another not those saying them, as indivdually they could and most likely do all want different things.
That's basically the Joke I was presenting, which it was obviously a horrible one, because I haven't seen one "haha funny" yet
. It was all serious business, In the end it did carry with it a long debate that stayed civil for the most part, and that's what matters most anyway.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I disagree with you. First you have no proof at all that they're completely different groups.
Second, I see quite some sandbox loving/themepark hating posters hop in on these TOR forums from time to time of which quite a number doubted/were certain that SWTOR wasn't a true MMORPG, and quite a number of that group of sandbox loving/themepark hating posters with a lot of the same names that you see now claim that SWTOR is too much of the kind of MMORPG we've seen before.
So yes, common sense dictates that there is at least some overlap, and no, I'm not going to do work for you and spend hours of digging through a multitude of threads to prove that point. Either you believe it or not, whatever you feel comfortable with.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think you have to look a little further than only the sandbox crowd though, and look more at the number of jaded gamers out there in general. There's most definitely many sub groups in that lump, DAOC players to UO players and even some EQ players. They're most certainly not all looking for the same thing, they just have one opinion they all agree with. Everything but what they like is crap.
They will go out of their way to find any excuse to bash a game or developer, justifiable or not.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I wouldn't read too much into what you read here it is not representative at all. If you took note of most of the forumns here the are comprised of the dissaalusioned or people laughing at the dissalusioned.
The game will offer a lot more than it doesn't.
Well, maybe you just misinterpret that a little. F.e. me, I don't think it's all "crap", and I'm not looking for "perfection", either. I enjoyed plenty of Single Player mainstream games during the last years, like Portal 2, Fallout NV, Stalker, GTA4, Mass Effect 1, etc. There's something for everyone, lots of variety. There, you won't find that kind of hate that exists in MMO communites.
But for some reason, the MMO industry doesn't work like the SP industry. There's hardly any variety or choice. If you want something other than a WoW-variant - sucks to be you.
Naturally, many people will rage over every new game that is another WoW-variant. Especially if it's potentially "the next big thing" like SWTOR, which means it may become the copy-and-paste template for another 5 years. And especially if its fanboy-army will stubbornly repeat whatever EA's marketing tells them. Like "it's the first fully-voiced MMO", even though every upcoming MMO is either fully or mostly voiced as well.
The haters may be just as bad, but well, I can't blame them. Am I a hater as well, hoping that SWTOR will "fail"? Honestly, yes. Sort of.
It's not that I really hate it, I actually like Bioware a lot, and the game will probably be decent. It just happens that the SWTOR vs GW2 battle will decide what MMOs will look like in the near future. Like it or not, SWTOR is iconc for how the industry currently works, and if it comes out on top, that will further support the status quo. That thought just scares and angers a lot of people. And TSW may get crushed between the giants altogether, which it really doesn't deserve...
Hype train -> Reality
Agreed on all points. I must admit I had not looked at SWTOR in terms of it filling all the gaps players and reviewers took issue with in AoC. With that in mind Bioware seems to have covered all those major holes although endgame activities we have not heard much about.
Again we come back to "what the MMO community demands" Vs "what the MMO community will actually support" which are clearly 2 very different things and the later is what 90% of developers are chasing while the 10% who dare to be different are doomed to becoming small subscriber niche games, eventual F2P conversions or worst of all extinct.