If you know about any game thinking outside this box (except for EVE, which I am highly familiar with), would you please be so kind to inform me. Because I really want to try something new, fresh and original !
I am very bored with 12 years old mechanics, constantly being presented in new clothings.
Help me out please !
? Ok, here we go:
now: Xsyon, Puzzle Pirates, Vindictus
upcoming: Arche Age, World of Darkness (possibly), Firefall, Planetside 2, Defiance, and possibly Undead Labs' zombie MMO
Originally posted by Reizla
...not reading the whole thread..
SW:ToR will fail big-time guys! Just face the facts of what you REALLY know about the game - close to nothing. Most 'facts' posted here are rumor and hype and everyone is over-excited because BioWare (I agree, one of the the best RPG producers around) makes an MMO of one of the biggest IP franchises.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think you're putting too much faith into TOR if you think the fate of the entire genre rests on a company who has never made an MMO before (or hardly even dabbled in online play).
With no prior experience, where do you think they got the template to start from? Not from out of their asses (well maybe lol, their heads are shoved up there pretty far when it comes to change lately), they are difinetly taking major ques from existing popular game(s) and basically just adding in their typical SP formula they have established at this point.
That is how I see it anything, so I don't think this is a good game to rest the fate of the entire genre on.
@Neverlift: actually, the simple fact that you scorn all themepark fans and call WoW players 'disgusting themepark lovers' says everything about you and your stance.
Like I said, if you hate/dislike themepark MMO's doesn't change one bit of the fact that themepark MMO's have been popular and successful for 7 years, with the most prominent one introducing over 10 times more people to the MMO genre than the MMO playerbase held before, from young to old (average age of WoW players: 28 years).
Denying this, and that the themepark/WoW formula has been hugely popular and successful for all kinds of gamers is just living in denial.
The same with SWTOR, it'll be a solid and very big AAA themepark MMO: for hardcore sandbox fanbois or disgruntled, burnt out MMO vets who haven't been able to enjoy any MMO for years now and are looking for something revolutionarily innovative to give them that 'MMO first love' feeling again, for those 2 groups SWTOR just won't satisfy their need.
For people that still have the capacity to enjoy themepark MMO's however, there'll be enough to enjoy in SWTOR, as demo players as well as beta players have stated.
Personally, I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that SWTOR won't have much to offer for hardcore sandbox lovers or burnt out themepark haters/MMO vets, I hope that those 2 groups realise early enough that SWTOR isn't a game they'll like much, so that they will not play the game when it launches
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You need gameplay to succed not a name. WoW wasn't successful bacuase it was warcraft it was successful because it was polished and it brought the genre into the mainstream, the fact that it was blizzard that had managed to create 3 popular and polished IP's before probably helped alot.
ToR success is irrelevant, the way I see it; they are taking an overused formula and adding story and voice-overs. Hardly innovative imo.
There are plenty of promising MMO's on the way, such as GW2, TSW, Planetside 2, all of them having some form of 3 factopm RvR. So finally developers got their heads out of their asses. Then there's TERA and Dark Millenium Online (although I'm still sceptical about those two).
There simply is no reason to leave WoW for a similar game that works exactly the same way. If you disagree please tell me what is different about ToR end-game from other traditional MMORPG's? Zergfest raids and mini-arena bullshit PvP and seperate gear with lot's of grinding along the way, yes great idea to hold on to that bag of shit.
There simply is no reason to leave WoW for a similar game that works exactly the same way. If you disagree please tell me what is different about ToR end-game from other traditional MMORPG's? Zergfest raids and mini-arena bullshit PvP and seperate gear with lot's of grinding along the way, yes great idea to hold on to that bag of shit.
You make the very often seen mistake that if you've grown sick of certain gameplay, EVERYBODY should be sick of that kind of gameplay. It's a very black & white kind of vision, no greys inbetween at all, the kind of black & white viewpoint I've often encountered with themepark haters/sandbox lovers on these forums: to them only 2 groups of gamers exist, those that have grown sick of themepark gameplay and therefore stop playing WoW, and those who still enjoy themepark gameplay and therefore will play no other themepark MMO but WoW.
It's a very limited viewpoint though: for example, I stopped playing WoW not bc I started to become disgusted of themepark gameplay, but because there were other (themepark) MMO's that drew my attention.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
lol, what a dramatic thread title! I hardly think ToR is the industry's last hope, like every other game, it's a stepping stone. This particular stepping stone is simply putting emphasis on story telling and giving the player a theatric experience as they progress, as opposed to a yawnfest of a grind you get from gathering up quests and completing them to level up... I swear I realized it was time to quit wow when I fell asleep doing dailies.
I do have high hopes for ToR, but I don't think its our last hope. If anything it'll just fuel our expectations for the next big MMO to be released... and it'll give us all something to bitch and moan about untill that future crop of MMOs is released
My first post on this forum, its reputation has kept me away for, well since its creation, and as I read some replies I see the reputation was well earned indeed.
As for TOR being the savior of MMORPGs, probably not.
But TOR failing will push MMORPG developement into a endless spiral of WOW development only for the next 10 years.
Few points:
1) TOR is not WOW in Space and anyone that makes the claim is a idiot. They about as smart as the idiots that claimed SWG was EQ in Space when it launched. Just a popular tag for haters to grasp hold off that showcases their stupidity and ignorance. TOR has a number of innovative ideas that will carry the genre forward if they work but even more importantly TOR "STARTS" to increase the time invenstment concept.
Now other MMORPGs will need to catch on and continue to increase the time investment concept even more and hopefully in 10 years we back to PRE WOW LEVELS where people still felt getting to max level was a accomplishment and not a mindless gimme like WOW turned it into.
2) GW2 is not going to be a industry leader or battle as the number 1 MMO, hell its not even going to battle as the number 10 MMO, and nothing its doing will evolutionize the MMO market!
F2P and B2P microtransaction games will always be the dredges of the universe and attract the very worst players of the genre and nothing those games do will effect the MMORPG genre in any way.
Hell if Arena net had any real expectations from the game they would try the subscription rate concept as thats where the biggest money is, but Arenanet knows good and well what their game is and where it belongs so I really wish TOR haters and 13 year old kids with no allowance wopuld shut up already about GW2. It will make its money back and earn a small profit for Arena net and thats all its every been designed to do!
3) WOW destroyed this genre, utterly destroyed it. Games have tried to copy WOW but have learned that once WOW players got bored, they didnt want to replay WOW, but they were so spoiled with instant graftification of WOW (no challenge, no time investment, no nothing, everything handed to them on a wish and dream) that being challenged scares them that they hesitant to buy into a game that will challenge them.
And thats where TOR fits in, its easy enough that the gimme generation are still happy but has raised the bar just slightly for other game developers to build on.
Closing
WOW almost destroyed the MMORPG genre with its instant easy everything attitude. No game can undo WOWs damage by itself, its going to take a number of game slowly easing us back into previous levels of challenge and difficulty before the Genre is truely in a healthy state again.
TOR is simply a step in the right direction.
Lygar's post made me laugh, so I give him a gleeful little applaud.
I do find it funny while sifting through the garbage of this thread, to find people comparing guildwars and warcraft. This thread might be the first time I've ever seen anyone call Guildwars a WoW clone. A moment of this grandeur deserves some sort of celebration, doesn't it?
But back on topic, peeling away the IP from the SWTOR, what is it that this game brings to the genre that people are so excited about? When I watch videos for this game, I only see very small scaled and slow paced gameplay, but when I think of StarWars, I think of moments from StarWars BF2's conversion pack. A certain game setting or mod, would allow for a spawn 200+ units on a field at any give time. I feel like the Battlefront series were the only StarWars games that captured the chaos of war.
Star Wars Galaxies had its moments before the combat patch, but they were very rare. Maybe once a week you could find a MASSIVE fight between rebel and imperial. Although I remember very very early in the game there was a sort of battle ground, I don't remember how many were available and I only got to play once, it was dome like forcefield that encased a certain area in Talus. Though after that I could never join one again. I'm guessing the project was scrapped at some point.
What I was getting at is when I think about Star Wars, I think about the "wars" part of it, battles so intense that peaking out from your cover that your using in a fire fight would naturally make you crap your pants.
Even though I tend to lose my train of thought, I guess what I'm asking is, what is it that SWTOR offers that makes you aspire to it so badly?
Lygars new post here: (no break for some reason)
heh, I see the trolls (the others) are strong, Always amused me that people insult others posts and posters (as they did me) yet you read their posts and they say nothing,nothing at all, just flame bait! Its actually why I normally dont post here but got directed by a freind for a beta test other day (sorry kiddies, account wasnt made to make this post).
Anyways, Moose, what does TOR bring thats innovative! First off let me say, I started playing MMORPGs in oNWN so I been around far longer then most people and actually seen things evolve over the years and decades as changes in industry and genre and gamers themselves took place. The average gamer today is a 180 degrees different then the average gamer in 1991-1997 for NWN run on AOL.
Also let me qualify that innovation doesnt have to be a grand new idea, proper implimentation of a concept is just as a innovating as a new concept thats not fully developed yet.
With that said:
1) Full voice acting. Couple games before have tried to fool around with this but their stories were limited and their voices were even more limited. TOR offers up independant and unique character voices so when you hear Admiral so and so speak, its not the same voice as the bartender in that other city. This is huge and Im expecting Standard PRE EA Bioware quality.
2) MULTIPLE Compainions with independant storylines that judge you (and can leave you or attack you) based on your decisions and choices. Ive only seen this in 2 companies. Bioware and CDProjekt Red (The Witcher series) and it adds amazing depth to the companion system.
3) Independant character, companion, world, Galaxy story arcs. Not one off quests but whole and complete story arcs fully fleshed out that effect the enviroment (go watch the Taris Dev Diary for details on that) and characters around you.
4) Crafting. I admit I dont know much about TOR crafting beyond the little I read so far but one thing I do know is its NEVER been offered before in this style and design. I dont know if it works or not but its new, original, and innovative.
Thats off top of my head and I "suspect" there is more but I dont know for sure so ill leave that till then.
As for me being a fanboi, Im such a fan boy I refused to pre order and will nto until priceing is fully revealed and developed. Ive no problem with subscriptions but how much is subscription? What role do Microtransactions play? Is there lifetime subs (if there is ill probably wait for game to go B2P or F2P as thats what LT subs signal)?
But me not ordering doesnt mean im a fool that ignores whats obvious to me in plain english. Those other haters can take that role, I have to much self respect for that.
As for the SWG nonsense, SWG was hemmoraging subs the first week it released and was never as popular as the minority that liked it claimed. I know full well this site is pro SWG and what not but it was not a successful game and Bioware was smart to not copy any ideas or concepts from it. And SWG was just UO in a Star Wars shell. Leveling (skilling) was a little different in design but was much the same thhing in the end. The crafting was new and at first was fresh and interesting and yes innovative. At the end it was abused so greatly that it became a non selling point and one of the main reasons SWG couldnt attract new players. But Im not here to discuss SWG, it failed and thats that.
Anyways, thought Id answer your post as it was one of the more civil ones (in a sea of moronic flaming). I honestly dont know if Ill play SWTOR,I want to but there are things that I simply will not lower myself to (Microtransaction based games being one of them) so we will see how it works out. But no matter if I play or not, it truely doesnt take a genious to see how much TOR is advanceing the genre from the depth of despire Blizzard and WOW dragged it down to. TOR however can not fix all the problems because a game that reverted to even DAoC levels would not be accepted by the WOW generated customers who still think everything should be handed to them with no to mimimal effort.
Games now have to slowly bring the genre back to DAoC levels over time, and then hopefully start moving to EQ levels for time invested levels.
If TOR suddenly said, OK, all you people that leveled to 50 in 9 days in WOW playing 20 hours a week will now be playing a game that requires you to play 3 months at 20 hours a week to reach level 50 (DAoC initial time investment average). TOR would flop outright and only attract the 1 million or less older gamers who played games like that before. The other 19 million that played WOW would scoff and reject the idea. And Developers desperately want to draw that other 19 million in as well, or even a portion of them.
So TOR slightly improves the time investment to max level and slightly improves the over all challenge. Is it perfect? NO. But its stepping in the right direction and hopefully in expansion they can slowly increase those challenges and time investments and hopefully other developers that come down the line after them also pick up on the concept and improve on them.
WOW took us from 50 to 1 overnight in difficulty setting and sadly 1 because the industry norm. Now TOR takes us to 1.5. Maybe the next game takes us to 2, and we slowly build back up to 50 and then to 100.
Cant say it any clearer then that! TOR is a step in the right direction.
PS: Regarding what you see when you look at Star Wars, thats all fine and good but when I look at Star Wars I think of Tales of the Jedi 1 and 2, where its about the characters, not the battles. I see Darth Bane with his political manuvers rather then some starship flight! I like the characters and stories so TOR being Story driven is perfect for me.
I read lots of posts about its Star WARS and needs PVP yet you watch the entire movies series and mostly its the group of heros vrs unnamed opponents (NPCs), Only rarely is it a named vrs named that you would assume is either a) Boss or Different Player. So their "its star WARS' is meaningless.
Star Wars is what it is to each person and that changes and just because someone thinks of fights and battles doesnt mean thats the right or correct veiw or impression of the franchise.
TOR being Story driven is a huge selling point for me because SWG was freaking boring for me, the missions were dull and other then Jedi Theme Park and couple other places it was storyless and meaningless and dull.
PPS: As for GW2 (and those going on about it), I mean why even bother, there is nothing new, nothing original, nothing exciting about the game. The TOR haters have latched onto it as a alternative but no one beleives that truely. Its a B2P game that will again (like GW1) be successfull in Europe and have minimal market exposure in North America and ink out a small but manageable profit margin selling MT based items and content). Compaing GW2 to TOR is like comparing that small town fair of 5 rides to Disneyland. It is what it is.
No I think if SWTOR fails then it will likely signal a rapid approach to the end of subscription based MMO's though and a real shrinking of MMO budgets back to a realistic level (maybe instead of a 30-40% spend on marketting developers will put that money into making the actual godamn produt better).
Budgets will need to be adjusted to try and re-coup costs and make initial profits based on boxed sales alone and then microtransactions & sales of expansion content + smaller DLC will be relied upon to generate after sales profits going forward.
There simply is no reason to leave WoW for a similar game that works exactly the same way. If you disagree please tell me what is different about ToR end-game from other traditional MMORPG's? Zergfest raids and mini-arena bullshit PvP and seperate gear with lot's of grinding along the way, yes great idea to hold on to that bag of shit.
You make the very often seen mistake that if you've grown sick of certain gameplay, EVERYBODY should be sick of that kind of gameplay. It's a very black & white kind of vision, no greys inbetween at all, the kind of black & white viewpoint I've often encountered with themepark haters/sandbox lovers on these forums: to them only 2 groups of gamers exist, those that have grown sick of themepark gameplay and therefore stop playing WoW, and those who still enjoy themepark gameplay and therefore will play no other themepark MMO but WoW.
It's a very limited viewpoint though: for example, I stopped playing WoW not bc I started to become disgusted of themepark gameplay, but because there were other (themepark) MMO's that drew my attention.
WoW has lost over a million subs in less than half a year.... the reason is people are tired of the same ole crap.
WoW is bleeding subs fast, you used to see a lot full servers, now there is only a handful of full servers with the rest low or medium and many of the medium population servers are barely medium.
Bottom line mav you read ToR's book a couple times and then what you gonna do?? you gonna get on that treadmill that WoW perfected and chase that carrot for gear?
Oh thats right it's StarWars.... it will be alright cause you say it will.... never mind the crazy amount of leaked video footage and the stuff shown at E3 this year that shows the game looks and feel like an online game and not an online world.
Forget there is nothing at all to do endgame beside chase gear... and that crafting system they got in place is a joke as is the space combat they threw together!
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
hey mav... all Blizz showed with WoW was if you take mmo and make it dumb down and easy, people and mostly kids will flock to it and play it
No, what Blizz proved was that if you make a well polished and fun game as opposed to the broken/boring crap that was being pushed before it, people will actually pay to play it.
you login to games like LOTRO, DDO, FE, EQ/EQ2 and EVE and you so a different player base and community... WoW's community for the most part is disgusting and nothing but kids and themepark lovers who love chasing the gear as their only means of an end-game
Not sure what server you were on but that wasn't my experience. Course then again I was on a role playing server and those tend to attract more mature players. And of course those communities for the other games are different. The amount of players playing those games you described are miniscule in comparison to WOW. Why are you complaining? If you hate fans of WOW, they are all congregated in that game and aren't messing around in games you like, IF any such game exists.
I'm sure mav you will come back to defend your beloved themepark ToR... but if you was not a blinded fanboi you would see ToR for what it is.
The old "nobody could possibly like what I don't." How original.
There are so many leaked videos footage out showing the game play mav and even the lame stuff that was shown at this years E3... but you ignore it and blindly hope for the best.
The OP was overdramatic, but he not representative of the majority that is looking forward to this game. The videos have been seen by everyone that follows the forums. They just have a difference of opinion, a concept that many like yourself in these parts can't seem to grasp. I don't look to this game as the savior of the genre. I'm just looking for a fun game to play.
Trust me just google it people and you can see more than enough leaked gameplay videos showing all elements of what ToR has to offer and the people talk openly about what is missing from ToR that any top AAA mmo should have.
There are those who like it and those who don't. What a newsflash. If you don't like this game there are dozens out there that are nothing like this one. If none of them meet your high and almighty standards then perhaps its you and not the industry.
Edit:
WoW so easy a 6yr old can play it.... can we dare to dream that ToR will be any different?
Let the hate flow. It's always entertaining to watch a poster take the simple task of gaming so seriously. What I think the real issue with you people is that those millions didn't flock to MMORPGs until WOW came along. That's what sticks in your craw the most. None of them wanted to play your boring/broken piece of crap so now you're bitter. If you weren't, you wouldn't waste your time on these forums. You be in the forums of the games you like.
No I think if SWTOR fails then it will likely signal a rapid approach to the end of subscription based MMO's though and a real shrinking of MMO budgets back to a realistic level (maybe instead of a 30-40% spend on marketting developers will put that money into making the actual godamn produt better).
Budgets will need to be adjusted to try and re-coup costs and make initial profits based on boxed sales alone and then microtransactions & sales of expansion content + smaller DLC will be relied upon to generate after sales profits going forward.
Well said!
It's amazing how much money has been blown on ToR yet there is so very little to show for it.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE Waiting on: Lost Ark Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
It's amazing how much money has been blown on ToR yet there is so very little to show for it.
Nothing to show for it? Please do explain... Isn't it rather there's nothing you want to see? You do realize the cost of creating a game with as much content as TOR is reported to have, as well as full on VO and writers to flesh out the stories?
Lets not forget creating full fledged MMo mechanics on top of that, as well as months of polish.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
It's amazing how much money has been blown on ToR yet there is so very little to show for it.
More themepark related content than as good as any other themepark MMO. A larger world than as good as all other themepark MMO's, with 1 SWTOR planet of the 17 already being as large as Rift's entire world. Sounds like enough to show for it to me. Well, for themepark fans, that is, of course. Themepark haters are - as usual - left to wait for whenever their ultimate dream MMO will show up, whenever that may be
Originally posted by NeVeRLiFt
WoW has lost over a million subs in less than half a year.... the reason is people are tired of the same ole crap.
WoW is bleeding subs fast, you used to see a lot full servers, now there is only a handful of full servers with the rest low or medium and many of the medium population servers are barely medium.
Wow has maintained 10+ milliion subs for 6-7 years, a feat no other MMO achieved or even came close, that's 30-40 times more than SWG at its peak and 20+ times EQ in its glory days. It still has 10+ million subs that have enjoyed themepark MMO's for years. But hey, keep hoping, people like you have been so certain that WoW was losing subs and in rapid decline for years now, and every bit as certain as you are now, which is kinda funny and sort of deja vue. I bet you've been making the same claim - or more like wishful thinking - for years about WoW
Bottom line mav you read ToR's book a couple times and then what you gonna do?? you gonna get on that treadmill that WoW perfected and chase that carrot for gear?
Oh thats right it's StarWars.... it will be alright cause you say it will.... never mind the crazy amount of leaked video footage and the stuff shown at E3 this year that shows the game looks and feel like an online game and not an online world.
Forget there is nothing at all to do endgame beside chase gear... and that crafting system they got in place is a joke as is the space combat they threw together!
Like I said, hate themepark MMO's all you like, other people will be enjoying their themepark MMO's and have great fun in them, like they've been doing for years now, while themepark haters are left to rant on forums instead of having MMO fun, like has been the case for years as well
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
The OP was overdramatic, but he not representative of the majority that is looking forward to this game. The videos have been seen by everyone that follows the forums. They just have a difference of opinion, a concept that many like yourself in these parts can't seem to grasp. I don't look to this game as the savior of the genre. I'm just looking for a fun game to play.
That kind of people actually does have trouble grasping the concept that what they dislike might be liked and enjoyed by others, do they? Kinda funny
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Also let me qualify that innovation doesnt have to be a grand new idea, proper implimentation of a concept is just as a innovating as a new concept thats not fully developed yet.
With that said:
1) Full voice acting. Couple games before have tried to fool around with this but their stories were limited and their voices were even more limited. TOR offers up independant and unique character voices so when you hear Admiral so and so speak, its not the same voice as the bartender in that other city. This is huge and Im expecting Standard PRE EA Bioware quality.
I agree on this being innovative and new. TOR and GW2 seem to be the only ones doing this so far (though I'm not certain of any others at the moment), and it's nice to see that.
2) MULTIPLE Compainions with independant storylines that judge you (and can leave you or attack you) based on your decisions and choices. Ive only seen this in 2 companies. Bioware and CDProjekt Red (The Witcher series) and it adds amazing depth to the companion system.
Not crazy about this yet. It seems like it'll make solo-play easier I guess, other than that I see no "cool-factor" other than having an NPC follow you around and maybe craft for you while you afk. To me they are pretty much a mix of heroes in GW1 and NPCs in KotOR.
3) Independant character, companion, world, Galaxy story arcs. Not one off quests but whole and complete story arcs fully fleshed out that effect the enviroment (go watch the Taris Dev Diary for details on that) and characters around you.
Like full voice-overs, this seems to be a new thing to the coming, big-name MMOs (namely TOR and GW2) and is something I'm very much looking forward to. How much you can actually change on these planets and if it'll actually be permanent or not is something we'll have to wait and see.
4) Crafting. I admit I dont know much about TOR crafting beyond the little I read so far but one thing I do know is its NEVER been offered before in this style and design. I dont know if it works or not but its new, original, and innovative.
Looking forward to see how they implement it.
Thats off top of my head and I "suspect" there is more but I dont know for sure so ill leave that till then.
PPS: As for GW2 (and those going on about it), I mean why even bother, there is nothing new, nothing original, nothing exciting about the game. The TOR haters have latched onto it as a alternative but no one beleives that truely. Its a B2P game that will again (like GW1) be successfull in Europe and have minimal market exposure in North America and ink out a small but manageable profit margin selling MT based items and content). Compaing GW2 to TOR is like comparing that small town fair of 5 rides to Disneyland. It is what it is.
Opinions are fine but alot of people who have played GW2 would say otherwise, me included. The demos have already shown how a developer can take old ideas and create a fresh twist on them. GW2 may very well be successful in Europe, but probably more-so in NA in my opinion, either way it won't matter really. Having a game that will provide both balanced, more hardcore ranked PvP (e-sport) as well as casual, strategic WvWvW PvP is a big draw for many players coming from DAoC.
Also, the cash-shop won't provide anything other than fluff (costumes, pets, ect.) nothing to make you better or force you to buy it. TOR may very well have a cash-shop in the future selling DLC, pets,ect also. But this is only speculation based on Bioware/EA's history with DLC. Time will tell.
Aside from my replies in your post, I think TOR will be a good game but no savior as the OP thinks it may be. It brings to the table a few new things and alot of old things from various games which will gain the interest of players who just want a normal MMO within an IP widely known. That said I also don't think GW2 will be a savior either since there's honestly nothing to save for the genre. My two cents.
Having a game with so much story is a new thing (to this degree) and I hope what Bioware and ArenaNet are doing catches on with other developers in the future.
No I think if SWTOR fails then it will likely signal a rapid approach to the end of subscription based MMO's though and a real shrinking of MMO budgets back to a realistic level (maybe instead of a 30-40% spend on marketting developers will put that money into making the actual godamn produt better).
Budgets will need to be adjusted to try and re-coup costs and make initial profits based on boxed sales alone and then microtransactions & sales of expansion content + smaller DLC will be relied upon to generate after sales profits going forward.
Well said!
It's amazing how much money has been blown on ToR yet there is so very little to show for it.
Well sadly as has often been publicised by the gaming press the big companies often spend 40-60%+ of game budgets for AAA titles on marketing and advertising alone with an often even higher percentage spend for licenced IP games such as movie spinoffs (Iron Man 2 anyone ?) the later of which are usually crap.
I would hate to think about how much of SWTOR's budget was spend on marketting & advertising.... Still my comment was in relation to the fallout if SWTOR fails and not so much the sickeningly bloated budgets some of these publishers are putting up for games.
Well sadly as has often been publicised by the gaming press the big companies often spend 40-60%+ of game budgets for AAA titles on marketing and advertising alone with an often even higher percentage spend for licenced IP games such as movie spinoffs (Iron Man 2 anyone ?) the later of which are usually crap.
I would hate to think about how much of SWTOR's budget was spend on marketting & advertising.... Still my comment was in relation to the fallout if SWTOR fails and not so much the sickeningly bloated budgets some of these publishers are putting up for games.
Sounds kinda absurd and ludicrous to me, you're not really serious, are you?
I very much doubt that this is the case, and even more when we're talking about SWTOR.
But if you truly believe such... excessive numbers, do you have the sources to back it up? I mean, everyone can pluck some figures out of the air and say it's gospel, just saying
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You've got to be kidding me. Placing the hope of mmo genre on ToR.
Lol....frankly i don't even care much about it for now.
IMO op is placing unrealistic expectation on a single title. Every game have it's flaw and short coming. This show how narrow the appreciation for mmo op have.
SWtOR is not the last hope, we've still got great MMOs like Guild Wars 2 and ArcheAge coming out too. Even with the slim possibility of Old Republic bombing, the genre will still be alive and kicking! I get your concerns but MMORPGs will continue to evolve and thrive, this forum is darn melodramatic isn't it.
Blizzard is already in development of a new IP for their upcoming MMO that caters to Casual Gamers. And if you do some research , Tera is also scheduled for a 2012 release, Asia has been pumping out MMO's every few months. GW2 is also slated to come out soon. There are a huge load of MMO's being developed (eg.. TSW) and Loads more getting polished and being scheduled for release. No reason why the future of MMO would be riding on SWTOR's shoulders.
SWTOR is not for everyone, but eventually everyone will try it, some will like it, some will hate it, then those that hate it will come back to play it again. Just like any mmo out there. Its the same with WOW, most that played it the very first few months left then came back and then a whole lot came back when Celebrities started playing it, when Grandmas play it. I was in a guild in WOW that went from 20 to 5 then to 50 members. And that didn't happen in a few weeks, but in months and years.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Blizzard is already in development of a new IP for their upcoming MMO that caters to Casual Gamers. And if you do some research , Tera is also scheduled for a 2012 release, Asia has been pumping out MMO's every few months. GW2 is also slated to come out soon. There are a huge load of MMO's being developed (eg.. TSW) and Loads more getting polished and being scheduled for release. No reason why the future of MMO would be riding on SWTOR's shoulders.
SWTOR is not for everyone, but eventually everyone will try it, some will like it, some will hate it, then those that hate it will come back to play it again. Just like any mmo out there. Its the same with WOW, most that played it the very first few months left then came back and then a whole lot came back when Celebrities started playing it, when Grandmas play it. I was in a guild in WOW that went from 20 to 5 then to 50 members. And that didn't happen in a few weeks, but in months and years.
Agreed, and don't forget World of darkness online either.
We do need a new MMO hit soon and it is possible that Blizzards Titan might be so late that the genre will hurt if it will be the next hit, they have said 2014 and knowing Blizz I wouold say that means 2016.
I think it would be best for the genre if either TOR, GW2 or both becomes huge hits because that would tell the big publishing houses that MMOs are worth investing in soon but if TOR fails and GW2 would be huge it would not hurt the genre the least even if it might hurt the P2P model a lot.
MMOs are not affected if a single game fails, no matter if Blizzard or Bioware made it. It will be badly affected if no MMO have done well in a long enough time and we do need a hit game but frankly do I think it would be better for the genre if CCP or Arenanet got the hit than Bioware.
LOL the OP has been drinking the TOR koolaid heavily.
If TOR flops, it's because the players don't like it. No conpsiracies or black helicopters are to blame.
If TOR fails there will not be a mass emoragequit of mmo gamers, they'll move on to the next game, just like they have for the last dozen years.
Get off the WoW comparisons, seriously. WoW has been successful because they took standard game mechanics from ones that went before like EQ ect, improved upon it, and kept their playerbase happy. There's no code to break and no mysteries of the universe to solve. Build a solid game that appeals to the majority of the gaming masses, keep improving it, and don't screw it up. It's that simple.
WoW is currently king of the MMO world, so what? Others had the title before and I'm sure at some point someone else will claim it when wow takes a fall. Daoc/UO = EQ = WoW = ???.
"So if the recipe for success produces failure, then one must conclude that the MMORPG as a dish is no longer a dish people want to eat….
This is the last chance for the MMORPG to prove that WoW wasn’t a fluke, that the market is still a viable mechanism in today’s entertainment industry, we are dangerously close to becoming a closent genre again, let’s not become the Sim Genre of the next millennium."
LMAO what??? Millions of mmo gamers say you're Full Of Crap. As long as millions of people are willing to pay $15 a month to play online games there will be plenty of companies designing games to capitalize on it.
Believe it or not the world will not come to an end if TOR fails.......
Comments
? Ok, here we go:
now: Xsyon, Puzzle Pirates, Vindictus
upcoming: Arche Age, World of Darkness (possibly), Firefall, Planetside 2, Defiance, and possibly Undead Labs' zombie MMO
+1 for funny post, that was hilarious, well done
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
In the end, it all sounds like a personal problem.
P.S I won't have this problem, because I will have GW2.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
I think you're putting too much faith into TOR if you think the fate of the entire genre rests on a company who has never made an MMO before (or hardly even dabbled in online play).
With no prior experience, where do you think they got the template to start from? Not from out of their asses (well maybe lol, their heads are shoved up there pretty far when it comes to change lately), they are difinetly taking major ques from existing popular game(s) and basically just adding in their typical SP formula they have established at this point.
That is how I see it anything, so I don't think this is a good game to rest the fate of the entire genre on.
@Neverlift: actually, the simple fact that you scorn all themepark fans and call WoW players 'disgusting themepark lovers' says everything about you and your stance.
Like I said, if you hate/dislike themepark MMO's doesn't change one bit of the fact that themepark MMO's have been popular and successful for 7 years, with the most prominent one introducing over 10 times more people to the MMO genre than the MMO playerbase held before, from young to old (average age of WoW players: 28 years).
Denying this, and that the themepark/WoW formula has been hugely popular and successful for all kinds of gamers is just living in denial.
The same with SWTOR, it'll be a solid and very big AAA themepark MMO: for hardcore sandbox fanbois or disgruntled, burnt out MMO vets who haven't been able to enjoy any MMO for years now and are looking for something revolutionarily innovative to give them that 'MMO first love' feeling again, for those 2 groups SWTOR just won't satisfy their need.
For people that still have the capacity to enjoy themepark MMO's however, there'll be enough to enjoy in SWTOR, as demo players as well as beta players have stated.
Personally, I'm pretty comfortable with the fact that SWTOR won't have much to offer for hardcore sandbox lovers or burnt out themepark haters/MMO vets, I hope that those 2 groups realise early enough that SWTOR isn't a game they'll like much, so that they will not play the game when it launches
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
You need gameplay to succed not a name. WoW wasn't successful bacuase it was warcraft it was successful because it was polished and it brought the genre into the mainstream, the fact that it was blizzard that had managed to create 3 popular and polished IP's before probably helped alot.
ToR success is irrelevant, the way I see it; they are taking an overused formula and adding story and voice-overs. Hardly innovative imo.
There are plenty of promising MMO's on the way, such as GW2, TSW, Planetside 2, all of them having some form of 3 factopm RvR. So finally developers got their heads out of their asses. Then there's TERA and Dark Millenium Online (although I'm still sceptical about those two).
There simply is no reason to leave WoW for a similar game that works exactly the same way. If you disagree please tell me what is different about ToR end-game from other traditional MMORPG's? Zergfest raids and mini-arena bullshit PvP and seperate gear with lot's of grinding along the way, yes great idea to hold on to that bag of shit.
You make the very often seen mistake that if you've grown sick of certain gameplay, EVERYBODY should be sick of that kind of gameplay. It's a very black & white kind of vision, no greys inbetween at all, the kind of black & white viewpoint I've often encountered with themepark haters/sandbox lovers on these forums: to them only 2 groups of gamers exist, those that have grown sick of themepark gameplay and therefore stop playing WoW, and those who still enjoy themepark gameplay and therefore will play no other themepark MMO but WoW.
It's a very limited viewpoint though: for example, I stopped playing WoW not bc I started to become disgusted of themepark gameplay, but because there were other (themepark) MMO's that drew my attention.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
lol, what a dramatic thread title! I hardly think ToR is the industry's last hope, like every other game, it's a stepping stone. This particular stepping stone is simply putting emphasis on story telling and giving the player a theatric experience as they progress, as opposed to a yawnfest of a grind you get from gathering up quests and completing them to level up... I swear I realized it was time to quit wow when I fell asleep doing dailies.
I do have high hopes for ToR, but I don't think its our last hope. If anything it'll just fuel our expectations for the next big MMO to be released... and it'll give us all something to bitch and moan about untill that future crop of MMOs is released
Obi-wan KenoRPG, you're out only hope!
No I think if SWTOR fails then it will likely signal a rapid approach to the end of subscription based MMO's though and a real shrinking of MMO budgets back to a realistic level (maybe instead of a 30-40% spend on marketting developers will put that money into making the actual godamn produt better).
Budgets will need to be adjusted to try and re-coup costs and make initial profits based on boxed sales alone and then microtransactions & sales of expansion content + smaller DLC will be relied upon to generate after sales profits going forward.
WoW has lost over a million subs in less than half a year.... the reason is people are tired of the same ole crap.
WoW is bleeding subs fast, you used to see a lot full servers, now there is only a handful of full servers with the rest low or medium and many of the medium population servers are barely medium.
Bottom line mav you read ToR's book a couple times and then what you gonna do?? you gonna get on that treadmill that WoW perfected and chase that carrot for gear?
Oh thats right it's StarWars.... it will be alright cause you say it will.... never mind the crazy amount of leaked video footage and the stuff shown at E3 this year that shows the game looks and feel like an online game and not an online world.
Forget there is nothing at all to do endgame beside chase gear... and that crafting system they got in place is a joke as is the space combat they threw together!
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
Well said!
It's amazing how much money has been blown on ToR yet there is so very little to show for it.
Played: MCO - EQ/EQ2 - WoW - VG - WAR - AoC - LoTRO - DDO - GW/GW2 - Eve - Rift - FE - TSW - TSO - WS - ESO - AA - BD
Playing: Sims 3 & 4, Diablo3 and PoE
Waiting on: Lost Ark
Who's going to make a Cyberpunk MMO?
Nothing to show for it? Please do explain... Isn't it rather there's nothing you want to see? You do realize the cost of creating a game with as much content as TOR is reported to have, as well as full on VO and writers to flesh out the stories?
Lets not forget creating full fledged MMo mechanics on top of that, as well as months of polish.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
More themepark related content than as good as any other themepark MMO. A larger world than as good as all other themepark MMO's, with 1 SWTOR planet of the 17 already being as large as Rift's entire world. Sounds like enough to show for it to me. Well, for themepark fans, that is, of course. Themepark haters are - as usual - left to wait for whenever their ultimate dream MMO will show up, whenever that may be
Like I said, hate themepark MMO's all you like, other people will be enjoying their themepark MMO's and have great fun in them, like they've been doing for years now, while themepark haters are left to rant on forums instead of having MMO fun, like has been the case for years as well
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
That kind of people actually does have trouble grasping the concept that what they dislike might be liked and enjoyed by others, do they? Kinda funny
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Aside from my replies in your post, I think TOR will be a good game but no savior as the OP thinks it may be. It brings to the table a few new things and alot of old things from various games which will gain the interest of players who just want a normal MMO within an IP widely known. That said I also don't think GW2 will be a savior either since there's honestly nothing to save for the genre. My two cents.
Having a game with so much story is a new thing (to this degree) and I hope what Bioware and ArenaNet are doing catches on with other developers in the future.
Well sadly as has often been publicised by the gaming press the big companies often spend 40-60%+ of game budgets for AAA titles on marketing and advertising alone with an often even higher percentage spend for licenced IP games such as movie spinoffs (Iron Man 2 anyone ?) the later of which are usually crap.
I would hate to think about how much of SWTOR's budget was spend on marketting & advertising.... Still my comment was in relation to the fallout if SWTOR fails and not so much the sickeningly bloated budgets some of these publishers are putting up for games.
Sounds kinda absurd and ludicrous to me, you're not really serious, are you?
I very much doubt that this is the case, and even more when we're talking about SWTOR.
But if you truly believe such... excessive numbers, do you have the sources to back it up? I mean, everyone can pluck some figures out of the air and say it's gospel, just saying
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
You've got to be kidding me. Placing the hope of mmo genre on ToR.
Lol....frankly i don't even care much about it for now.
IMO op is placing unrealistic expectation on a single title. Every game have it's flaw and short coming. This show how narrow the appreciation for mmo op have.
SWtOR is not the last hope, we've still got great MMOs like Guild Wars 2 and ArcheAge coming out too. Even with the slim possibility of Old Republic bombing, the genre will still be alive and kicking! I get your concerns but MMORPGs will continue to evolve and thrive, this forum is darn melodramatic isn't it.
Blizzard is already in development of a new IP for their upcoming MMO that caters to Casual Gamers. And if you do some research , Tera is also scheduled for a 2012 release, Asia has been pumping out MMO's every few months. GW2 is also slated to come out soon. There are a huge load of MMO's being developed (eg.. TSW) and Loads more getting polished and being scheduled for release. No reason why the future of MMO would be riding on SWTOR's shoulders.
SWTOR is not for everyone, but eventually everyone will try it, some will like it, some will hate it, then those that hate it will come back to play it again. Just like any mmo out there. Its the same with WOW, most that played it the very first few months left then came back and then a whole lot came back when Celebrities started playing it, when Grandmas play it. I was in a guild in WOW that went from 20 to 5 then to 50 members. And that didn't happen in a few weeks, but in months and years.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Agreed, and don't forget World of darkness online either.
We do need a new MMO hit soon and it is possible that Blizzards Titan might be so late that the genre will hurt if it will be the next hit, they have said 2014 and knowing Blizz I wouold say that means 2016.
I think it would be best for the genre if either TOR, GW2 or both becomes huge hits because that would tell the big publishing houses that MMOs are worth investing in soon but if TOR fails and GW2 would be huge it would not hurt the genre the least even if it might hurt the P2P model a lot.
MMOs are not affected if a single game fails, no matter if Blizzard or Bioware made it. It will be badly affected if no MMO have done well in a long enough time and we do need a hit game but frankly do I think it would be better for the genre if CCP or Arenanet got the hit than Bioware.
LOL the OP has been drinking the TOR koolaid heavily.
If TOR flops, it's because the players don't like it. No conpsiracies or black helicopters are to blame.
If TOR fails there will not be a mass emoragequit of mmo gamers, they'll move on to the next game, just like they have for the last dozen years.
Get off the WoW comparisons, seriously. WoW has been successful because they took standard game mechanics from ones that went before like EQ ect, improved upon it, and kept their playerbase happy. There's no code to break and no mysteries of the universe to solve. Build a solid game that appeals to the majority of the gaming masses, keep improving it, and don't screw it up. It's that simple.
WoW is currently king of the MMO world, so what? Others had the title before and I'm sure at some point someone else will claim it when wow takes a fall. Daoc/UO = EQ = WoW = ???.
"So if the recipe for success produces failure, then one must conclude that the MMORPG as a dish is no longer a dish people want to eat….
This is the last chance for the MMORPG to prove that WoW wasn’t a fluke, that the market is still a viable mechanism in today’s entertainment industry, we are dangerously close to becoming a closent genre again, let’s not become the Sim Genre of the next millennium."
LMAO what??? Millions of mmo gamers say you're Full Of Crap. As long as millions of people are willing to pay $15 a month to play online games there will be plenty of companies designing games to capitalize on it.
Believe it or not the world will not come to an end if TOR fails.......