Aldaron makes the typical PvPer fantasy scenario. He only thinks about what is fun for the PvPer, giving no thought to the wants of the non PvPer (IE: The caravan or the ppl of the city)
What happends when you (try) please everyone? You have a virtual simulation of what you may nickname "paradise". Translation...boredom.
Many a time I wanted to shoot the developers of EQ for making the death penalty so harsh. Everytime I died I got frustrated beyond belief, thinking about losing my last 6 hours of grinding. It was a serious pain in the ass.
But I then think to myself...EQ plucked out my spine, and skewered my heart everytime I died. But yet...I enjoyed it 10x more then World of Warcraft. Why?
Because it was challenging. The reward is so much sweeter, when the road is so much more coarse. Boredom...Is safety. Without danger, there is no reward. There is only whoring.
Of course, its obvious from his post that he wants all non PvP players to go play single player games and leave all online games completely. Which would mean that the Caravan in his example would be NPCs and so would the city, which would them make it boring according to others who have posted in this thread.
You see, without the carebears, there are no non NPC caravans or cities. Unless you mean a fort where more fighters are hold up, which is not a city.
Sir...Please before making such assinine comments...Take the time to actually READ my post.
Please...It isn't that hard. I spoke in clear english. Get back to me after you've read it CORRECTLY.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by Aldaron Amusing irony... That is the people who call PvP'ers immature gankers or whatnot, and go off on a 10 minute spat of over-emotional, immature mannerisms. Well, first off after reading your post here I got one thing to say about it!!! "Pot calling the kettle black?" Lets go down the lists now. 1. "If you want PvP! Go play a FPS! MMORPG's are for people that like...Roleplaying, grinding, and exploration!" Did anyone say anything about telling any PvPer to go play FPS? I don't think so. First attempt to put words in others mouths to make you seem correct, aye? Now talk about hypocrisy at it's finest. Roleplaying, leveling, exploration, loot collecting, can all be done in SINGLEPLAYER, RPG's. Roleplaying especially more so. (I personally found Baldurs Gate II more immersively roleplaying then any MMORPG's non PvP servers.) Are you that shallow to think what PvE is all about? Um have you even played MUDS? I bet not, if you have I bet you didn't play long enough to know more that what you say here. BTW, If you think any SP RPG is more immersive than non-PvP MMORPG then you don't really know much about MP outside of I kill j00, aye? However, I think most RPers know exactly what I am talking about and if I have to explain it to you it will be just a waste of time. It is beyond your understanding. If you then say, "Well I want interaction with other people! To chat, and make friends." Go to a chatroom. Oh, and when did you become GOD to say what others should do? You are just like the original poster that thinks you can change the MMO community and only to stay is the type you want and all else leave. Oh BTW, did you know there is a chatroom in ALL MMORPGS? infact I think every MP game on the net has a chat room, it is called communication. You know, the text box looking thing that is typically on the bottom of your screen while in game!!! I know, I know, you don't really care that it is there and just really wish it was gone so no one could message you in game because you just want to run around PKing all n00bs that just arrive in the world for the first time. How you it when others put words in your mouth aye? So what does this explain? Anyone who says "Go play a FPS!" to a PvP'er is a hypocrite, and only making an ass out of themselves. So please stop it, ignorance is annoying. This is one of the pot calling kettle black is present. In addition to where I still don't see much anyone saying to stop playing MMORPG and to go play FPS games. I can remember some saying that they rather play a FPS game if they want to go PVP, but I don't see anyone being anything like you telling them what to do. Yes, I do agree ignorance is very annoying, however arrogance is just as bad and in my eyes you reflect both. 2. "I can find just as much challenge in questing, and hunting monsters. Then other players." Unless you know of a secret AI program in the works that is going to be unveiled soon...I'd like to hear an explanation of that. If you really even TRIED to keep up on topic, the conversation isn't really just about plan PvP, but about open PvP. Plus the attitude that comes with the ganker talk with regards to open PvP. If you read most of the posts here you would notice that it has transformed into a deeper conversation, but obviously you are trying to keep the same old argument going about the standard topic of carebear and PvP. It is like coming in here and showing others you can punch through a paper bag. Yea, now get up on topic. 3. "Conflict...Drama. Politics, economics. Immersion! It can all be had in non-pvp games." Pray tell...How? Conflict? How? By conversations consisting of, "You r t3h stupid3st111!!one!one!!111" Or, "My good fellow. I must politely disagree with your point. For I do not see the validity in such reason. Please sir, explain in more detail so that we may come to an understanding." Are you that stupid to think all PvE is just conversation? You are an idiot to even come up with them statements. You remind me of the same sort of poeple that think Role Playing means to just talk in character. Just because you can't think of how Conflict/Economy/Politics works in a MP RPG environment doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does and a lot of you that grind, kill, rush to quests and rinse and repeat never will see it. Infact one saying that is so true is. "Grinding is only an option that you choose to do, It is how you play and not how the game plays you. MMORPG's are nothing like a SP RPG, but more like a Graphical MUD. However the way some of you talk you want it to be an action MUD. Well go play the action MUDS. Not all are suppose to be geared one way and only in your way. That my friend is ignorance. Well hey...If that's your thing. But personally I prefer conflict along the lines of, "You bastard! You slaughtered my family, burnt my home, stole my cattle. And now you shall pay by your blood spilt on the ground, and your pulsing heart on the tip of my sword!" If your brain is that shallow to use your sword at everything you pass. Well sounds like a Brute Orc with a big big Knock'um down wt me Hammer" type of role you want, but some of use prefer something a bit more involving rather than kill at every event. That is what causes grinding. Doing the same thing over and over. Tell me, PvP or not. How many ways can you kill? No matter what the end result is one dead and one alive. Or many dead and many alive. Sounds sort of bland. I mean personally, I just find that more conflicting and dramatic. I mean maybe I'm crazy, but personally, it would of been dissapointing, if at the end of braveheart of when they spoke of "Warrior Poets" they were talking about the movie, and where the screenplay was changed to actually being based around a bunch of Scots that defeated the english with their gnarly words! Oh really? So yeah true, I bet you have about hmm a 5 intellegnce? SO either it is Talk or DIE!!!! hmm, so shallow once again. If you think it is all one or the other then I sure hope you never create content for a game. You would suck at it. I would hate any game that would only give me a way to talk my way out of something or just fight for my life. There is a lot more than that to politics/Economy/Conflict. If you think you have to swing a sword or use dialog to get out of a situation or change a situation. Then I think you don't know the first thing beyond simple puzzle games. Politics...Carebear version... "And if you vote me in office. I shall protect you from the hordes of NPC orcs that can easily be defeated by 5 of you. But none the less...I am a great candidate! A vote for Togartham is a vote for safety." The enemy politician walks onto the pulpit, "Togartham...I'd kill you so as to remove you from the picture. But these damned game mechanics don't allow me to raise a finger! And protect us from who? Simplistic NPC's? Bah! I'd give them more then that if I was able to conquer the neighboring villages..." All I can say about that is. "I think you just shown everyone how you really are" Thank you, I don't need to point anything out here except, haha ok... Economics(PvP scenario)..."Lets ambush the caravan...Steal it's goods. And put up a siege against Dalgartha. We'll wait until they run out of goods. Then when they're starving and broke, we'll sweep in and conquer the city!" Sounds sort interesting at one stance but while you are at it tell everyone how you guys waited till the high level guys left the caravan until the low level guys took their place before you attacked it. Also I don't think you would wait till they are starving and broke. You all would just wait till most of them log off. Then you would go attack their town and destroy their Tree of life. Ooops wrong game Immersion...Well. Think of all of the above. And you'll get the picture. PvP can add to immersion, however as you can see most feel the way PvP , especially open PVP ruins immersion. However, immersion still exist without PvP. Drama comes from conflict. Humana drama comes from human conflict. Drama immerses us, even attracts us. Good vs Evil...Where's that great ongoing battle if the game doesn't allow for human conflict, betrayal, wars, sieges, trickery? Yes, them are a few types of conflict, but Killing is only one way. Still you are only seeing this in a very narrow view. Oh BTW PvP that we are mainly talking about is Open PvP that is what this has been since the main post. Like I and others have meantioned...The rules in PVP suck, therefore PVP sucks. When and if there is a better system, I don't think until then we'll have any of the things work properly. The so called conflict, betrayal, wars, sieges, trickery and such is more like chaotic and uncontrolled to be balanced at all. Even in SB it is so screwed up. Maybe DnL may do something to correct this, however even Dragon Empires ran into a lot of problems to balance it properly so it would work right without grivers ruining PVP. So far only consentual PVP has shown to create border lines for that. But of course I REALLY think it is people like you that ruin PVP for the ones that want REAL PVP. Otherwise, all it is, is total choas and no organisation. Trust me on this. A lot of people are pissed that gankers ruin PvP for the MMO community. So don't go screaming CAREBEAR and all that crap, because I know it in my heart that people like you would wind up being the carebears if we were in a world that was perm-death...Then your desires of how you play PVP will only get you killed!!!!!! Roleplaying is about immersion, is about taking on another role. The more selections the more immersion, the more realism. If we limit this to a bunch of good guys killing endless orcs...That kills the idea right there. No, as I mentioned above, what killed anything in the MMORPG community is the gankers. The ones you have to put limitations to so others dont walk all over the system. Now if everyone followed a IRL rule about how PVP is to work in game, then you will see PVP and immersion combine, but as long as we have gankers (Which when I talk about gankers I totally mean Grief players... I am sure most PvE player agree with that term) it will ruin any type of true RP for everyone. So, what are we left with? Well it is then up to the developers to work around jack asses like that and do alternative rules so as to keep the game world logical. In turn we usually loose a feature or option. I can go on more and more about how all of this is messed up and how most that would even touch PVP won't because of all the crap that surrounds it and how it is so far away from what is expected in RPG's. But to go and call others carebears because they won't settle for a cheap version of PvP doesn't say much for you at all and the original poster. P.S. I'm sure there are some examples I forgot. But that'll be for another day.
Well, first off after reading your post here I got one thing to say about it!!! "Pot calling the kettle black?"
Really now? Because last time I checked...I wasn't condemning PvE...
Did anyone say anything about telling any PvPer to go play FPS? I don't think so. First attempt to put words in others mouths to make you seem correct, aye?
You may want to scroll back a couple pages before saying such asinine comments...
Are you that shallow to think what PvE is all about? Um have you even played MUDS? I bet not, if you have I bet you didn't play long enough to know more that what you say here. BTW, If you think any SP RPG is more immersive than non-PvP MMORPG then you don't really know much about MP outside of I kill j00, aye? However, I think most RPers know exactly what I am talking about and if I have to explain it to you it will be just a waste of time. It is beyond your understanding.
Wow...That was a non-coherent rant if I've ever seen one...
Oh, and when did you become GOD to say what others should do? You are just like the original poster that thinks you can change the MMO community and only to stay is the type you want and all else leave. Oh BTW, did you know there is a chatroom in ALL MMORPGS? infact I think every MP game on the net has a chat room, it is called communication. You know, the text box looking thing that is typically on the bottom of your screen while in game!!! I know, I know, you don't really care that it is there and just really wish it was gone so no one could message you in game because you just want to run around PKing all n00bs that just arrive in the world for the first time. How you it when others put words in your mouth aye?
Please...More paragraphs. Your sentence structuring makes me dizzy. Oh hell...Paragraphs aren't the only problem. I couldn't even comprehend your last sentence.
Oh...And once again you lost the point I was making. *sigh*
(Oh. And yes...I like to think of myself as a god...thank you.)
This is one of the pot calling kettle black is present. In addition to where I still don't see much anyone saying to stop playing MMORPG and to go play FPS games. I can remember some saying that they rather play a FPS game if they want to go PVP, but I don't see anyone being anything like you telling them what to do. Yes, I do agree ignorance is very annoying, however arrogance is just as bad and in my eyes you reflect both.
Again...That diarrhea of the mouth. May want to get that checked out...
If you really even TRIED to keep up on topic, the conversation isn't really just about plan PvP, but about open PvP. Plus the attitude that comes with the ganker talk with regards to open PvP. If you read most of the posts here you would notice that it has transformed into a deeper conversation, but obviously you are trying to keep the same old argument going about the standard topic of carebear and PvP. It is like coming in here and showing others you can punch through a paper bag. Yea, now get up on topic.
"The thread isn't about PvP...It's about open PvP!" Wow...If that aint a contradictionary sentence.(Oh. And are you now master of the thread to so brazenly say what is, and is not being spoken about?)
Oh...And please sir...Enlighten me with this "deeper conversation". Because us ignorant folk just don't have the intelligence of wise sansei masters like you...
Are you that stupid to think all PvE is just conversation? You are an idiot to even come up with them statements. You remind me of the same sort of poeple that think Role Playing means to just talk in character. Just because you can't think of how Conflict/Economy/Politics works in a MP RPG environment doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It does and a lot of you that grind, kill, rush to quests and rinse and repeat never will see it. Infact one saying that is so true is. "Grinding is only an option that you choose to do, It is how you play and not how the game plays you. MMORPG's are nothing like a SP RPG, but more like a Graphical MUD. However the way some of you talk you want it to be an action MUD. Well go play the action MUDS. Not all are suppose to be geared one way and only in your way. That my friend is ignorance.
"Don't put words in peoples mouths!"
"I can't understand you. So I've decided to spew a bad case of diarrhea of the mouth of what I interpret to be what you said...Even though I still have no idea what you're talking about!"
Next!
If your brain is that shallow to use your sword at everything you pass. Well sounds like a Brute Orc with a big big Knock'um down wt me Hammer" type of role you want, but some of use prefer something a bit more involving rather than kill at every event. That is what causes grinding. Doing the same thing over and over. Tell me, PvP or not. How many ways can you kill? No matter what the end result is one dead and one alive. Or many dead and many alive. Sounds sort of bland.
Oh God...This gets funnier by the moment. First you tell me it's not all about talking...Then you say I'm a "brute orc" because it's not all about fighting!
You want to keep a little consistency here pal? Or you just going to keep on making an ass out of yourself?
Oh really? So yeah true, I bet you have about hmm a 5 intellegnce? SO either it is Talk or DIE!!!! hmm, so shallow once again. If you think it is all one or the other then I sure hope you never create content for a game. You would suck at it. I would hate any game that would only give me a way to talk my way out of something or just fight for my life. There is a lot more than that to politics/Economy/Conflict. If you think you have to swing a sword or use dialog to get out of a situation or change a situation. Then I think you don't know the first thing beyond simple puzzle games.
Once again...You lack comprehension and blame your inability to see correctly. On the poster.
All I can say about that is. "I think you just shown everyone how you really are" Thank you, I don't need to point anything out here except, haha ok...
lol.
Sounds sort interesting at one stance but while you are at it tell everyone how you guys waited till the high level guys left the caravan until the low level guys took their place before you attacked it. Also I don't think you would wait till they are starving and broke. You all would just wait till most of them log off. Then you would go attack their town and destroy their Tree of life. Ooops wrong game
Wow...You seem to know that scenario well. You want to tell us something?
PvP can add to immersion, however as you can see most feel the way PvP , especially open PVP ruins immersion. However, immersion still exist without PvP.
Open PvP ruins the game...Because oh right...I forgot. Invisible barriers that only lets people attack each other under the right circumstances...Is ultra realistic! Fakey game mechanics for t3h win!
Yes, them are a few types of conflict, but Killing is only one way. Still you are only seeing this in a very narrow view. Oh BTW PvP that we are mainly talking about is Open PvP that is what this has been since the main post. Like I and others have meantioned...The rules in PVP suck, therefore PVP sucks. When and if there is a better system, I don't think until then we'll have any of the things work properly. The so called conflict, betrayal, wars, sieges, trickery and such is more like chaotic and uncontrolled to be balanced at all. Even in SB it is so screwed up. Maybe DnL may do something to correct this, however even Dragon Empires ran into a lot of problems to balance it properly so it would work right without grivers ruining PVP. So far only consentual PVP has shown to create border lines for that. But of course I REALLY think it is people like you that ruin PVP for the ones that want REAL PVP. Otherwise, all it is, is total choas and no organisation. Trust me on this. A lot of people are pissed that gankers ruin PvP for the MMO community. So don't go screaming CAREBEAR and all that crap, because I know it in my heart that people like you would wind up being the carebears if we were in a world that was perm-death...Then your desires of how you play PVP will only get you killed!!!!!!
In other words you're saying, "The people that want PvP...Ruin it for the people that want PvP. And the people that want PvP...Wouldn't PvP in a game with more consquences."
Wow...Ya...I mean that totally makes sense...
No, as I mentioned above, what killed anything in the MMORPG community is the gankers. The ones you have to put limitations to so others dont walk all over the system. Now if everyone followed a IRL rule about how PVP is to work in game, then you will see PVP and immersion combine, but as long as we have gankers (Which when I talk about gankers I totally mean Grief players... I am sure most PvE player agree with that term) it will ruin any type of true RP for everyone. So, what are we left with? Well it is then up to the developers to work around jack asses like that and do alternative rules so as to keep the game world logical. In turn we usually loose a feature or option. I can go on more and more about how all of this is messed up and how most that would even touch PVP won't because of all the crap that surrounds it and how it is so far away from what is expected in RPG's. But to go and call others carebears because they won't settle for a cheap version of PvP doesn't say much for you at all and the original poster.
If you have problems with griefers...I'd suggest quit playing MMORPG's altogether. If you have a problem with jackasses...I'd suggest commiting suicide.
P.S.
If you decide to make any type of rebuttal...Whatsoever. Please...Work on your sentence structuring. ESPECIALLY PARAGRAPH's. And quit contradicting yourself so damn much.
Starting out a post of "Quit putting words in peoples mouth" followed by a couple hundred words doing exactly that, completely ruins your validity.
P.P.S. Also next time...Please learn how to correctly understand the intent of someones clearly written out post.
Thank you.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Aldaron, All your combacks of personal attacks didn't get you anywhere except that you lost the debate and got mad.
I knew you couldn't think of anything beyond quick cut downs. Owie, that hurt.
Still fighting the paper bag aye?
Anyway, I am not going to debate with you any longer since you can't come up with anything useful other than personal attacks.
I well let others see it for themselves of what an ass you can be.
Maybe if you weren't so angry your comprehension wouldn't be so cloudy. But I think you will just keep arguing with yourself in here.
Have fun!
PS. I bet you are some ugly disgusting old fat man that hasn't gotten laid since high school and that was a cow out in Texas where you live. You probably take that anger out on people on the net like in games and here huh?
- Players are now protected from blood thirsty PK'ers who seek to kill, loot and steal.
Because in most games, its not a matter of skill, but rather the equipment the player has, and as you point out, Ebay tends to sway the favor in the direction of the Uber-Noob. In 99% of all cases of "PK'ers" looking to kill, loot and steal, they are not alone...its them and a few of their buddies turing a gank onto someone who is either new to the game, or someone who is totally outclassed.
PK'ers are disgusting...they prey on the week and inexperienced to make themselfs feel superior when they are the scared little kids at school or people in real life that back down when confronted with a situation they think may get out of controll.
- The thief class is now non-existant. You can't steal from players anymore.
Due to more and more players investing more and more time and money into the games companys make, losing something due to no fault of your own or lack of skill or experience, but to lose items or in-game money to another player who felt you should donate to their ass-hat fund is looked poorly upon, as in may cases if the loss is to great or if someone was just having a bad day to begin with and was looking for a little fun and relax time....they end up getting pissed off and either quit the game or take a break for a few months (costing the company subscription money because of the actions of another player)
- Strong focus on killing NPC's that offer little resistance and barely any challenge.
I agree.
- Tricking players into repeating the same action over & over again, grinding, farming, etc. Mindless activities.
I agree.
- When a player dies their armor/weapons/money somehow manage to stay on them when they res.
Well where does one draw the line? Hardcore Diablo 2 where when you die thats it, no respawn, no saved loot, no nothing...just have to start over?
It would never ever happen in a MMORPG....people invest to much time and energy into the lives of their virtual characters, and to lose it (more so to a PK'er that outclassed you ten times over) would disgust even the best of people.
Many MMOGs are an investment of time, money, energy....the ones that allow another player or the environment of the game to rob you of everything for what could be a simple mistake is far to harsh a price to pay to have to reinvest all that time energy and money into getting where you were before.
Some loss is allways acceptable, otherwise there is no point, but to lose your "Uber Gear" to XPK'erX who was Twice your level with far superior Uber Gear they bought on Ebay would be unacceptable.
- Forcing players to kill the same mob over & over & over again hoping that they will earn a "rare item".
I Agree.
- A lot of carebears mmorpgs now a days develop strong relationships with Ebay becuase their Economic rulesets are soooo flawed.
I Agree.
I have to add however, it is not carebear MMOG's that get the most Ebay attention. If there is a PvP heavy element to the game there is all the more reason to buy your gear out of game for real life cash.
The Economic rulesets are flawed in 99% of games as there is usually far to many people changing the market within a game to maintain any real consistancy. The only way to avoid such a situation would be to make everything avaiable to all players from the start, remove all "money" from the game and all other types of currency and let the players come up with their own bartering system.
[I HATE IMMATURE 11 YEAR OLDS WHO OWN ME IN PVP]
Are you the kind of player who complains about 14 year old script kiddies owning you in PVP combat then msging you and calling you a noob? Well its time to change your attitude. Look on the left hand side at all the "released games". You say you won't play in any hardcore PVP environment but maybe you should change your attitude. You obviously don't like the MMORPG's you are playing now. WOW had 40 programmers behind it, a billion quests, PVP and all that crap but what was it lacking? Controversey. Humans are naturally attracted to controversey. WOW had none of that. In WOW if you die in PVP you lose nothing. You couldn't even message your enemies!? What hollywood movies do you see where the good guy does not talk with his arch enemy. WOW had 0 controversey.
WHAT MMORPG's WERE GOOD?
The only respectable MMORPG's with a strong emphasis on the community & PVP that i've played in the past that were: - Ultima Online before the year 2000 and/or Siege Perilous - Meridian 59
All MMORPG's that come out now follow the same ruleset as Everquest unfortunately.
How to identify a carebear and/or carebear MMORPG.
- Carebears tend to want consensual PVP, meaning you have to ask them if they want to PVP first because the element of surprise is simply too much for them to handle.
It usually has nothing to do with a element of supprise, but more so a matter of beat down. If a player at say level 10 was fighting a lvl 11 player to see how he was progressing in PvP and suddenly a level 30 player comes runing and and smokes them both, it removes that sence of FUN from the game.
Fun is in the eyes of the beholder, and sadly my friend....PvP is not the #1 thing on the minds of the majority of gamers in the way of fun, hence the lack of hardcore PvP in 99% of the games coming into the light. You can disagree with that, but the fact remains that "Carebears" or people who want the PvP to at least be based on Consent are the majority and majority rules.
- Carebears HATE risk. They cannot stand losing especially to another player.
I consider myself a "Carebear" and I do not "hate" risk, infact its the risk that adds a element of fun to many games. However when the element of "risk" is replaced by "certainty" it removes that element of fun and replaces it with annoyance and even anger, which tends to lead to people canceling subscriptions.
- Carebears HATE losing their "cool stuff" if they die in PVP combat, so carebears cannot handle a full looting environmet. Full looting meaning when they die all the items on their body drop to their dead corpse.
If there was a system that ensured the items would drop when it was a "honorable" kill....then by all means. However, if someone who has been playing the game for several months longer then another player and is many times your level in skills, powers equipment or whatever, then no the equipment should not be droped. People should not be forced to endure a system where they are forced to remain weak because someone was there first.
- Carebears have a very weak mindset with morale that breaks VERY easily. Carebears are like the "peasents" or "town milita". While Advanced Hardcore PVP'ers like myself are compared to "Praetorians", "Altruits", the elite players of any MMORPG theme. The problem is we are few and carebears are many.
You are right, you are few and we are many. Our mindset however is not weak or we would all sit back and accept the style of gankfest PvP slaughter PK'ing Ebayer wanna be PvP gods and companys would develop gamers where it was all possible.
We are strong in our opnions and are not afraid to voice them as the list on the left will show you, and as game companys will show in future games.....we like fun and dont need to ruin someone elses to have it.
[Conclusion]
I want you to change into the following type of player, repeat this outloud in front of your computer.
"I am not a carebear"
"I Am a carebear"
"I am a strong minded individual who seeks a challenge when playing a MMORPG".
"I am a strong minded individual who seeks a challange when playing a MMORPG that does not require me to spoil someone elses same challanging experience in said MMORPG"
"I only care about my PVP skill vs other players and my reputation amongst the players".
"I only care about having fun, my PvP skill vs other players and my reputation amongst the players is less important then being able to enjoy the game I play and not having to rob someone of their time, energy, effort and money invested into the game to prove Im superior in some pathetic manner"
"I am big on MMORPGs with a strong community that never limit who I can speak with in game (WOW didn't allow enemy players to talk with each other)."
"I am big on MMORPGs with a strong community that mever limit who I can speak with in game, unless its a game with diffrent races and they do not understand the language of the opposing side or have something in the story to explain why there is a language barrier. (Im not defending WoW)
"I embrace MMORPGs that offer full looting privelages in PVP".
"I embrace MMORPGs that offer full looting privelages in PvP as long as they are honorable kills and not the result of ganks, Ebay'ers..ect and both players agree to test their skill upfront winner take all."
"I embrace MMORPGs that offer easier access to armor/weapons so if I die in PVP and lose all my armor/weapons I can regear if i'm resourceful".
"I embrace MMORPGs that offer easier access to armor/weapons so if I die in PvP and lose all my armor/weapons I can regear if i'm resourceful, unfortunatly these types of games do not currently have a large spot on the market to pull in enough players or are of a style of game player I do not enjoy so I will stick to my current system of looting and only losing my equipment if I agree to PvP encounters with another player so I can ensure I allready have equipment on standby incase I do die at their hands."
"I hereby declare myself an Advanced PVP Veteran who welcomes challenge. I can choose to be "good" and help players or "Evil" and kill who I please and loot them. "
"I hereby declare myself an Advanced PvP Veteran who welcomes challange. I can choose to play "Fun" and help players or "Pathetic" and kill people less then half my level and loot them. I will play "Pathetic" and band together with my friends to gank people my nub ass could never fight solo and prove to the online world I am a part of that I am a "Advanced PVP Veteran"."
Let Good & Evil clash once again ALA Old ultima Online back in the year 2000 and earlier.
Let Good &Evil clash once again to bring down subscription rates of games to only ensure more then ever that "Carebear" will reign over the MMORPG world......forever.
Luzarius Tired of the carebear crap.
Psikorps Tired of the gankfest PvP nubs wanting to prove their are superior by attacking in numbers, people far below their level or skill, farming loot from players who are just trying to have fun, and most of all.....Tired of the PvP crap from people who think the only way to have fun is to stop someone else from having it.
I am amazed the OP does not understand WHY the MMO scene looks like it does today. Obviously it is because of people like him.
Simple minded, prejudiced, elitist and the social skills of a shower curtain.
You killed your own genre, just like you killed anything that moved, dont you see?
it is YOUR faulth, not the carebears, understand that and you have come a long way.
You seem very skilled at hating though so you should have no trouble what so ever hating yourself for the fact, small blessing though.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To Luzarius - if you like UO & M59 you should probably check out RV - "Roma Victor" launches later this year and has a great balance of player types, I think this game will suit you.
Originally posted by Horsas [WHAT HAPPENED TO MMORPGS?]
Unfortunately, after Everquest came out we have now entered a "Carebear" ERA.
- Players are now protected from blood thirsty PK'ers who seek to kill, loot and steal. - The thief class is now non-existant. You can't steal from players anymore. - Strong focus on killing NPC's that offer little resistance and barely any challenge. - Tricking players into repeating the same action over & over again, grinding, farming, etc. Mindless activities. - When a player dies their armor/weapons/money somehow manage to stay on them when they res. - Forcing players to kill the same mob over & over & over again hoping that they will earn a "rare item". - A lot of carebears mmorpgs now a days develop strong relationships with Ebay becuase their Economic rulesets are soooo flawed.
[I HATE IMMATURE 11 YEAR OLDS WHO OWN ME IN PVP] Are you the kind of player who complains about 14 year old script kiddies owning you in PVP combat then msging you and calling you a noob? Well its time to change your attitude. Look on the left hand side at all the "released games". You say you won't play in any hardcore PVP environment but maybe you should change your attitude. You obviously don't like the MMORPG's you are playing now. WOW had 40 programmers behind it, a billion quests, PVP and all that crap but what was it lacking? Controversey. Humans are naturally attracted to controversey. WOW had none of that. In WOW if you die in PVP you lose nothing. You couldn't even message your enemies!? What hollywood movies do you see where the good guy does not talk with his arch enemy. WOW had 0 controversey.
WHAT MMORPG's WERE GOOD?
The only respectable MMORPG's with a strong emphasis on the community & PVP that i've played in the past that were: - Ultima Online before the year 2000 and/or Siege Perilous - Meridian 59
All MMORPG's that come out now follow the same ruleset as Everquest unfortunately.
How to identify a carebear and/or carebear MMORPG.
- Carebears tend to want consensual PVP, meaning you have to ask them if they want to PVP first because the element of surprise is simply too much for them to handle. - Carebears HATE risk. They cannot stand losing especially to another player. - Carebears HATE losing their "cool stuff" if they die in PVP combat, so carebears cannot handle a full looting environmet. Full looting meaning when they die all the items on their body drop to their dead corpse. - Carebears have a very weak mindset with morale that breaks VERY easily. Carebears are like the "peasents" or "town milita". While Advanced Hardcore PVP'ers like myself are compared to "Praetorians", "Altruits", the elite players of any MMORPG theme. The problem is we are few and carebears are many.
[Conclusion]
I want you to change into the following type of player, repeat this outloud in front of your computer.
"I am not a carebear"
"I am a strong minded individual who seeks a challenge when playing a MMORPG".
"I only care about my PVP skill vs other players and my reputation amongst the players". "I am big on MMORPGs with a strong community that never limit who I can speak with in game (WOW didn't allow enemy players to talk with each other)."
"I embrace MMORPGs that offer full looting privelages in PVP". "I embrace MMORPGs that offer easier access to armor/weapons so if I die in PVP and lose all my armor/weapons I can regear if i'm resourceful". "I hereby declare myself an Advanced PVP Veteran who welcomes challenge. I can choose to be "good" and help players or "Evil" and kill who I please and loot them. " Let Good & Evil clash once again ALA Old ultima Online back in the year 2000 and earlier.
If you guys are like me and enjoyed the days where noone was safe, and you were punished properly for dying, and the "care bear" syndrome did not exist please consider trying Helbreath USA's 5 day trial on www.helbreathusa.com
[i]"Secondly, your focus to giving PvP all the fame is in error and calling me names isn't going to give you any brownie points nor make you seem as the intellgent one....Let me point out that now."
"I think you need to think before opening your big arrogant/ignorant mouth and splurting out garbage."[/i]
Coming from the guy who said this [b]"PvE lacks depth? What, are you that retarted?
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard yet on this forum."[/b]?
[i]"I am sorry, Politics doesn't = Kill PC. Economics doesn't = KILL PC. Then Conflict doesn't = KILL PC. That is what is wrong in the first place with PvP being in a RPG game. If that is how you resolve all of your conflicts then you have a very shallow thinking mind and that is where I even asked you about is your so called DEPTH."[/i]
Wow, talk about putting words in someone's mouth. I never said anything about PKing, or even "PvP". I said "human interaction". PKing may only be a deterrent, but if it wasn't possible to PK, then that deterrent wouldn't exist. Do you think politics would matter if it wasn't possible to attack another player? And please explain how you can possibly engage in conflict without being able to attack players.
[i]"Still you have not proven to me that PvE is shallow and that PvP isn't shallow. Just to give you some education. PvE type is what gives you the depth in the first place. PvP only adds flavor and diversity. NOT DEPTH!!!"[/i]
Well I already did, but you chose not to listen. I'll say it again: "No PvE can ever be as deep as genuine human interaction". Denying this statement would imply that you believe interacting with a computer is deeper than interacting with humans.
Again, as I said, "PvE involves nothing more than combat against a premade algorithm".
It's a shame that the original post was put across in a way likely to illicit offense and arguments because I do believe it made some good points. Maybe then we could be talking about gameplay without the insults.
I think Aldaron was making a lot of sense (until the drivel wars started), in particular...
"Drama comes from conflict. Humana drama comes from human conflict. Drama immerses us, even attracts us. Good vs Evil...Where's that great ongoing battle if the game doesn't allow for human conflict, betrayal, wars, sieges, trickery?
Roleplaying is about immersion, is about taking on another role. The more selections the more immersion, the more realism. If we limit this to a bunch of good guys killing endless orcs...That kills the idea right there."
Most of the real fun comes from drama. The losses and gains have to be real to matter. It's not just about pvp, there also needs to be real risk of loss in pve too, such as risk of losing items on death.
I could relate loads of examples of dramatic sequences of events which covered (to put it in role playing terms) murder, theft, betrayal, loss, revenge, victory, large scale inter guild wars, politics, you name it. This is where the real thrill of a game comes from. Without the ability for players to affect each other in a real and meaningful way and the ability to suffer meaningful loss (during pvp & pve) you are left with a flat, boring, uneventful exp and item collecting grind where those levels and items have no real value anyway.
Horsas I think you are just generalising. Not everyone that hate open PVP ala Lineage 2 is a carebear. The majority of people stands in the middle.
I love PVP, but I don't like ganking for the sake of it. Killing people on sight, doesn't involve a huge amount of thinking, what you need is a higher level character. You need a system for things to work, and PVP needs a good system too. Having Open PVP without rules or with no system in place, is simply not fun, like anything else.
In a good RPG you need to create the right balance between PVE and PVP, in a way that both are enjoyable. I am in favour of a more open PVP but with a good system in place that prevent people spending all their ingame time hiding behind a tree waiting for a newby to be ganked (how fun). At the moment there is not such PVP around, either is too open or too limited, so I am quite reluctant to play PVP games, but I am not Carebear.
- Players are now protected from blood thirsty PK'ers who seek to kill, loot and steal. - The thief class is now non-existant. You can't steal from players anymore.
I bet you feel all good and superb inside when you sneak behind the player that's hugging the item he just got after countless of hours of killing and camping and steal it from him and kill him afterwards? Thank's but i'll rather be a carebear than a sick person like you.
Also love pvp, but I hate people who just play deathmatch all day long. It´s just coward and senseless to shadow other players waiting until they fight a hard mob to kill them when they are almost dead after defeating the mob. Ever since I wondered what is so funny about killing noobs for high lvl players.
I havent posted in a while But since this is a topic worth posting in I will.
The problem with this argument lies in the simple fact that Both sides are right, and yet at the same time Wrong. The problem neither lies with the carebear crowd or the Hardcore pvp crowd. It lies in the development of the game, and or rather how you advance in the game. Allow me to explain.
You see, in UO Items were for the most part meaningless. Items were easy to get, Coin was easy to get. Everything wore out and broke unless it was repaired, but the majority of things were disposable. Skills were fairly easy to raise, it was not a instant process however it was Far from a game that would take 3 solid months of hard core grinding to achieve maxed level. Also of note It did not require maxed stats to PvP effectively, though they certaintly helped, a smart player with good tactics could easily best somone with higher skills. Gear was much the same, while it did in fact enhance your ability to fight, it was far from being what made or broke the fight unlike most current games where if your gear sucks it does not honestly matter how good you are. It all boiled down to Skill, Tactics and the ability to know when you are over your head and escape from combat before your health is too low to put up a respectable flight.
You see In Eq-esque games, Level is everything followed closly by gear. Your level and gear are the sole determing factor on if you win or lose a fight. Nothing else, you may argue it all you like but I played EQ for over 5 years along with a number of other games. I played everything from the pvp to top tier guild raiding, and I can honestly say there was zero skill involved in it. It came down to you had the gear and numbers or you did not. On some of the larger raid encounters tactics were a necessity yes, however it still came down to gear and numbers. Now Here is were the root of the problem is and why most carebear players do not like Free open unrestricted pvp, Levels/Gear/Coin are entirely too difficult to attain in most games. High levels, high end gear All of it in this type of game because it Affects the balance so dramatically can take weeks or longer to attain. Were in UO you can aquire a full set of fight worthy gear in half an hour tops, and or the coin to buy it. The same level of gear in an EQ type game may take weeks or even months to attain. Now based on this I can clearly see why people would not want to chance losing any of it. UO would have been a complete failure had it taken the period of time to attain equipment with the freedom in PVP it has. Its pvp is only successful because of ease of attainment and because gear did not make or break a fight.
So from that perspective its fairly easy to see and understand why the carebear players in EQ type games are as opposed to Open PVP. It does not make reasonable sense, to lose all your stuff when its that difficult to attain. As to why most of us Hardcore PVPers do not move on to games like SB..SB was ok..honestly I was disappointed by it. Lineage2 is a flipping joke that is honestly the worst game I have ever played, with its only redeeming qualities being loads of well rendered T & A, which honestly is rather sad and pathetic when you think about it. EvE online is a spectacular game, my only complaint is for a PVP oriented game it takes a serious long time for a beginner to get started..but overall its an extremely good game. I just tend to prefer swords and magic, or a true FPS like BF2.
Now honestly I think alot of carebear players might enjoy a true PVP game like UO if a good one was released. RV looks promising, but then..so did SB and L2..so We will see when it gets here. The formula is pretty simple; unrestricted pvp, no levels, Skill > equipment, items/coin/gear are easy to attain yet wear out quickly to keep the economy up, and finally a Stiff Stiff penalty system for those who choose to engage in Agressive PK behavior. This was one of the hallmarks of UO, I was a PK and as such I accepted the fact that the murderer flag would allow anyone to attack me, and prevent me from going to town. It was a great system. On that note however one of the better systems I have seen them implement is the Young player flag. This was not in early UO and thus there was alot of griefing, however this flag is generally long enough for the new player to get a feel of things and prevents them from being attacked, also the addition of the specific newbie zone was quite nice. I am not objectionable to some hand holding of the newer players so they can get a feel of the game before entering the cold brutality of some aspects, but it needs to be limited. The introduction of Trammel ruined uo, now while I will not bash players in games like EQ who play on blue servers, I will bash anyone who plays in Trammel..That is the most pathetic bunch of losers to ever grace the online gaming market ever. So easy to attain items and coin yet they hide in trammel for fear of fighting something that is more challenging then the seriously dumb AI in UO...and yes the AI in uo is really really dumb.
You know what I find really funny? It's when the minority of the "losers" try to make themselves look better than the majority!
They call theselves "l33t"! To the majority of the other players we consider them illiterate children that can't spell for sh**.
They call themselves "hardcore" and call us "carebears". To the majority of the other players, we consider them loners who should go out more, go back to school, get a job and stop spending over 23 hours a day playing video games all the time.
And why are we, the casual gamers, called "carebears"? That's like saying Ultima Online is the RIGHT WAY to play MMORPGs? Sorry but if World of Warcraft has 2 million players and UO never went past 300,000 players, maybe the right way a MMORPG should be played IS LIKE WoW!!! And that UO is the exagerated and wrong way to play a MMORPG.
I'm not insulted when someone calls me a carebear. Simply because I'm not the one who's gonna die of a heartattack in front of my PC. I'm not the one who's sitting in front of my PC 24 hours a day 7 days a week drinking Coke and eating chips gaining 100 pounds a year. I'm not the one who doesn't have a job or an education.
I am having fun though with the little hours I play the game, but what p1sses me off is when the game developers ONLY give new content to this minority of "hardcore" gamers. They represent a minority, but devs think they represent the majority because they are the ones with too much time on their hands to whine and complain on the forums! We the "carebears" do have lives, we don't have time to complain on forums, so we get nothing.
Why is it i want to laugh at every single thread started or involving Luzarius? - he contradicts things alot..
first off everone needs to need this -Luzarius hates Lineage 2 he complained about the game in all his pvp threads at the world of warcraft boards because Lineage 2 was too hard!!
Oh yes and i will never agree on the BS of Carebear players being cowards in pvp -sadly you dont understand the whole premise behind cowardice.. cowardice is the players who alt-F4 when near death.. the ones who pull there modems to escape their deaths.. those people are the so called hardcore pvprs who cant take a loss
the hardcore pvp group cant stand to lose.. the carebears dont care about loosing anything because they arent the ones playing on those ruled servers =============================
The only reason any completely hardcore FFA pvp buff would call someone a carebear is because they cant stand the fact other people can choose thier style of play and they hate the fact they cant kill every player in the game and loot thier corpses. =============================
Back to Asherons call is were i learned all this nonsense of red server Darktide vs the white servers the name calling from darktide populous just because we didnt play on the server as them we are supposedly inferior and o.O's
Aldaron, All your combacks of personal attacks didn't get you anywhere except that you lost the debate and got mad.
I knew you couldn't think of anything beyond quick cut downs. Owie, that hurt.
Very well...I'm sorry if I offended you by asking you to correct your sentence structuring. My apologies.
Still fighting the paper bag aye?
Anyway, I am not going to debate with you any longer since you can't come up with anything useful other than personal attacks.
I well let others see it for themselves of what an ass you can be.
Maybe if you weren't so angry your comprehension wouldn't be so cloudy. But I think you will just keep arguing with yourself in here.
Have fun!
PS. I bet you are some ugly disgusting old fat man that hasn't gotten laid since high school and that was a cow out in Texas where you live. You probably take that anger out on people on the net like in games and here huh?
lol. There you go again with that inconsistency...Spouting one doctrine, practicing another. Thanks for proving my point.
Now if you'd like to actually take the time to re-read my original post, and coherently respond to it, instead of shouting "ganker", "topic deviator", and comparing what I'm saying to a game of Shadowbane. Feel free to. But the above paragraph that you just typed, followed by your poll, shows your complete immaturity and inability to be able to have an intellectual debate.
Moo Moo
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Originally posted by Eraserhead Most of the real fun comes from drama. The losses and gains have to be real to matter. It's not just about pvp, there also needs to be real risk of loss in pve too, such as risk of losing items on death. I could relate loads of examples of dramatic sequences of events which covered (to put it in role playing terms) murder, theft, betrayal, loss, revenge, victory, large scale inter guild wars, politics, you name it. This is where the real thrill of a game comes from. Without the ability for players to affect each other in a real and meaningful way and the ability to suffer meaningful loss (during pvp & pve) you are left with a flat, boring, uneventful exp and item collecting grind where those levels and items have no real value anyway.
Bingo!
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Full loot pvp is just another extream like carebears, and it doesn't lead to the best PvP enviroments. Full loot basiclly takes most aspects of PvE and gear collecting out of the game and leaves it with almost no progression. It makes it a bit like a shooter game where you fight with spells and swords, instant gratification without progression. The ideal pvp situation is somewhere in the middle where there is still longterm value in the PvE aspect, but still reasons to fight.
Originally posted by Johnark You know what I find really funny? It's when the minority of the "losers" try to make themselves look better than the majority!
They call theselves "l33t"! To the majority of the other players we consider them illiterate children that can't spell for sh**. They call themselves "hardcore" and call us "carebears". To the majority of the other players, we consider them loners who should go out more, go back to school, get a job and stop spending over 23 hours a day playing video games all the time. And why are we, the casual gamers, called "carebears"? That's like saying Ultima Online is the RIGHT WAY to play MMORPGs? Sorry but if World of Warcraft has 2 million players and UO never went past 300,000 players, maybe the right way a MMORPG should be played IS LIKE WoW!!! And that UO is the exagerated and wrong way to play a MMORPG. I'm not insulted when someone calls me a carebear. Simply because I'm not the one who's gonna die of a heartattack in front of my PC. I'm not the one who's sitting in front of my PC 24 hours a day 7 days a week drinking Coke and eating chips gaining 100 pounds a year. I'm not the one who doesn't have a job or an education. I am having fun though with the little hours I play the game, but what p1sses me off is when the game developers ONLY give new content to this minority of "hardcore" gamers. They represent a minority, but devs think they represent the majority because they are the ones with too much time on their hands to whine and complain on the forums! We the "carebears" do have lives, we don't have time to complain on forums, so we get nothing.
An interesting reply, but I will make a few points so you understand where I come from. While I agree a good percentage fall into the above stereotype, not all do as with anything.
Point 1, I hate l33t speak as much as the next person with a decent education. Dispite the fact that the education system here in the us is a steaming pile of dogcrap, One has to do the best they can with the tools and resources provided. ( I reference K through 12 not college ) So I agree with you on this perspective, the majority of them are 13 y/o script kiddies who get bullied at school.
Point2, Hardcore has little to nothing to do with the amount of time you spend online. It has everything to do with how good you play it. I used to spend 8 to 10 hours a day gaming back in the UO days, however I was a teen back then with nothing better to do. Now I have a 40 hour a week job, a Wife and bills, I spend an hour or two a night online and 4 to 5 hours sometimes on weekends when they are free. I define hardcore as the ability to play the game more agressively, More skillfully, and with more challenge then the average player. Dispite the fact that my gameplay time has dwindled down, I still have little trouble maxing my characters in an MMO and or being one of the top ranked players in many of the FPS I play...Why? Am I just that good? nope..I simply think differently..A Game is a competition to me..Competition Drives me..Competition is what I find Fun. I do not just enjoy playing a game casually for the sake of playing..I need competition..I need good competition, I need players who will push my skills to the max to best them, and or push me to increasing my skills so I can hope to best them. I thrive off this, once the competition aspect is gone from a game It ceases to be fun in my eyes.
Point 3 Why are casual players called carebears? again stereotyping..on the average most gamers want challenge, but they want it fed to them in a manner that involves as little risk as possible. Hence why you will find nearly all casuals are purly against perma death MMOs, Against Full looting, Against non concentual PVP and the list goes one. where as the other group generally wants those things, as we view non concentual pvp as a way to implement tactics such as stealth and ambush into a game. Look at military battles over the years..Why do you think intelligence is such a big part of it? The goal is to Suprise the enemy to gain the advantage and prevent them from suprising you. Otherwise we go back to American revolution era fighting with men on a field facing off like dumbass's, I believe we know why that was abandoned, Equate concentual pvp to the same thing..
Point 4, Glad your not insulted you shouldnt be. There is honestly nothing wrong with being a carebear..the only thing wrong with it is developers have more or less forced it down the throat of everyone by creating games that are by design very low risk. Also as to the UO vs wow comparison, its rather pointless as When UO first came out PC's were nowhere near as common in households as they are now, the MMO market was brand new, and honestly noone really knew how a game like UO would go over as Meridian 59 while a good game was very exclusive for that time. Do remember when UO came out the Average PC was a 486dx...and the Pentium pro 200mhz had just hit the market and you could own one for the low low price of about 4 grand for a good setup. Where as now you can own a respectable gaming machine for well under $1000. So back then for UO to hit 300k players was nothing short of astonishing, honestly WoW's slightly over a million..sorry its not close to 2mil is impressive yes but by standards it Pales to the 300k of UO because of the time frame and market saturation. Does that make wow any less of a game? no Its a great game but you cannot compare it.
However as to the weight comment, me personally I weigh under 200lbs, workout in the gym 3 times a week and im 6'2" tall, so again Another stereotype I hardly adhere too, again I am not a nerd, I am not socially inept, I am not overweight, nor am I even badly out of shape.
Last point, You are having fun with the amount of time you spend in game? Good then why are you pissed at the devs catering to the hardcore crowd? They aready snubbed us by makeing the game easy enough for everyone and their brother, sister, cousin and mother to play, they already snubbed us by not implementing any of the features I listed earlier, they already snubbed us by not implementing the end game content on release and waiting 2 months before giving loot tables to those npcs or balancing the encounters because they did not actually believe we would be maxed level and beating up on their precious npcs so quick. They instead focused on the majority of making the low and mid level encounters fun, balanced and rewarding. As well as Safe, PK free and generally as low risk of an environment as possible while maintaining some risk to go along with the reward they dole out at a predetermined rate, that they may and do adjust as necessary if its coming out too quickly to keep customers paying for as long as possible. So why the hate to them once all this is done tossing uss a few crumbs off the table..a few encounters here and there a few loot tweaks..but hardly a fraction of what the casual base gets.
They focus on us for a very simple reason..We push the game foward. We are the ones who create the spiffy videos that people pass around the net, We are the ones who have the nice websites with lots of flash integrated, Lots of screenshots of the top end "Uber" equipment. These are the things that a large percentage of the casual crowd look at and hope to have someday. It pushes the game foward as the maximum rate, if it was not for the hardcore crowd the Devs of most big companies would be content to push content out as slow as possible to continue milking as much money out of their customers as possible. Do you think content development is cheap? Its not, as a matter of fact it is very very expensive. These companies are not out to be your friend, they are not your buddy, they at their core are about making money. Argue all you want but a corporation is designed with one purpose alone, and that is to generate revenue for its owner and shareholders. Any corporation that states otherwise is full of crap and can be expected to either go bankrupt or renig on that statement fairly shortly. Yes I am certain Alot are in it for the fun as well, but to state they are in it for the fun only while charging a monthly fee that exceeds in any manner the cost of maintenance is utterly absurd.
The MMORPG market needs both crowds, its a symbotic relationship neither group can survive without the other. The Casual market Supports the game financially, while the Hardcore market pushes the game foward. If the hardcore market goes away, then the game becomes stale and the casual base eventually gets tired and leaves. the casuals leave and the game financally collapses.
Originally posted by Harafnir Oh, you like full PvP and the ability to abuse people with words, showing your uber skills? Fine. Meet me in Battlefield 2, or Counter Strike.. or Day of Defeat! Full PvP.. and skill! Real skill, skills that involve you and not preprogrammed numbers. Riiiight.. Skills. That is why you play RPGs, not real shooting games. You have none. Sorry Lol pwned! Harafnir is right go play Halo 2 or BF2 if u want true skill!
haahhaa.. none of those games require much skill . You know "Pointy Clicky" is not all that hard how ever meet me on any pre t2a - t2a UO server and fight me and ill show you true skill
Wait so you're saying BF2 and Halo 2 don't require skill? You've abviosly never played ether of those games if you're saying that. Or you don't know what skill is because you say UO takes true skill.
The problem is no penalties for PVP. In a MUD I played in you could be captured and subjected to a slow torturous death that lasted for 45 minutes. If you got too far out of control (ie warranted 2 slow deaths in the same night) Your character would be celled for 24 hours. The capture generally happened in or near towns. Of course in this game there was an assassin's guild where you take out contracts on characters (on a personal note I didnt use such services as the Player leader of the Assassin's guild and I usually murdered each other regularly) Members of the assassin's guild were protected from having contracts taken out on them but could be booted by the player character who held the highest seat in the guild. The highest level in any given class was restricted to a player who functioned as the guild leader for that "kingdom" and the next level down was restricted to council members. The Devs were interactive so guilds were prone to have attempted coups where those held underneath could replace current council members and the Devs would mark it and oversee the nuts and bolts of "demotions".
The PVP in MMORPGs is a far cry from the level of political and potential dangers of that style of PVP. I think PVP would be fun for so called Hardcore PVP and Carebear players alike if there was a real political element and a real punishment element (would it be worth it to get an 8 hour timeout in a game over killing some low level schmoe?) I thought the addition of a class dedicated to sanctioned PK also had a nice flavor so players getting repeatedly PKed in the deep wilderness could always contact the assassins guild for some retribution. Players were given "immunity" from PK for 3 minutes after logging in unless they initiated PVP.. Immunity meant you could still be attacked and killed but the player doing such would be flagged for public execution regardless of where they did it. Sadly no immunity was granted if a character logged out in battle which made having a touch and go connection a possible death sentence (you really had to trust the people you were grouped with)
Comments
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
Aldaron, All your combacks of personal attacks didn't get you anywhere except that you lost the debate and got mad.
I knew you couldn't think of anything beyond quick cut downs. Owie, that hurt.
Still fighting the paper bag aye?
Anyway, I am not going to debate with you any longer since you can't come up with anything useful other than personal attacks.
I well let others see it for themselves of what an ass you can be.
Maybe if you weren't so angry your comprehension wouldn't be so cloudy. But I think you will just keep arguing with yourself in here.
Have fun!
PS. I bet you are some ugly disgusting old fat man that hasn't gotten laid since high school and that was a cow out in Texas where you live. You probably take that anger out on people on the net like in games and here huh?
Moo Moo
OK, I just want to get things on the right track.
I feel that Aldaron lost the debate and is now just attacking personally.
Aldaron feels my posts don't makes sense.
I am amazed the OP does not understand WHY the MMO scene looks like it does today. Obviously it is because of people like him.
Simple minded, prejudiced, elitist and the social skills of a shower curtain.
You killed your own genre, just like you killed anything that moved, dont you see?
it is YOUR faulth, not the carebears, understand that and you have come a long way.
You seem very skilled at hating though so you should have no trouble what so ever hating yourself for the fact, small blessing though.
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Originally posted by Jerek_
I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
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To Luzarius - if you like UO & M59 you should probably check out RV - "Roma Victor" launches later this year and has a great balance of player types, I think this game will suit you.
Good luck...
If you guys are like me and enjoyed the days where noone was safe, and you were punished properly for dying, and the "care bear" syndrome did not exist please consider trying Helbreath USA's 5 day trial on www.helbreathusa.com
You can check out this thread for more information http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion.cfm/load/forums/loadforum/51/loadthread/44426/setstart/1/loadclass/35
Cheers guys, you won't be disappointed!
Rudnoc:
[i]"Secondly, your focus to giving PvP all the fame is in error and calling me names isn't going to give you any brownie points nor make you seem as the intellgent one....Let me point out that now."
"I think you need to think before opening your big arrogant/ignorant mouth and splurting out garbage."[/i]
Coming from the guy who said this [b]"PvE lacks depth? What, are you that retarted?
That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard yet on this forum."[/b]?
[i]"I am sorry, Politics doesn't = Kill PC. Economics doesn't = KILL PC. Then Conflict doesn't = KILL PC. That is what is wrong in the first place with PvP being in a RPG game. If that is how you resolve all of your conflicts then you have a very shallow thinking mind and that is where I even asked you about is your so called DEPTH."[/i]
Wow, talk about putting words in someone's mouth. I never said anything about PKing, or even "PvP". I said "human interaction". PKing may only be a deterrent, but if it wasn't possible to PK, then that deterrent wouldn't exist. Do you think politics would matter if it wasn't possible to attack another player? And please explain how you can possibly engage in conflict without being able to attack players.
[i]"Still you have not proven to me that PvE is shallow and that PvP isn't shallow. Just to give you some education. PvE type is what gives you the depth in the first place. PvP only adds flavor and diversity. NOT DEPTH!!!"[/i]
Well I already did, but you chose not to listen. I'll say it again: "No PvE can ever be as deep as genuine human interaction". Denying this statement would imply that you believe interacting with a computer is deeper than interacting with humans.
Again, as I said, "PvE involves nothing more than combat against a premade algorithm".
It's a shame that the original post was put across in a way likely to illicit offense and arguments because I do believe it made some good points. Maybe then we could be talking about gameplay without the insults.
I think Aldaron was making a lot of sense (until the drivel wars started), in particular...
"Drama comes from conflict. Humana drama comes from human conflict. Drama immerses us, even attracts us. Good vs Evil...Where's that great ongoing battle if the game doesn't allow for human conflict, betrayal, wars, sieges, trickery?
Roleplaying is about immersion, is about taking on another role. The more selections the more immersion, the more realism. If we limit this to a bunch of good guys killing endless orcs...That kills the idea right there."
Most of the real fun comes from drama. The losses and gains have to be real to matter. It's not just about pvp, there also needs to be real risk of loss in pve too, such as risk of losing items on death.
I could relate loads of examples of dramatic sequences of events which covered (to put it in role playing terms) murder, theft, betrayal, loss, revenge, victory, large scale inter guild wars, politics, you name it. This is where the real thrill of a game comes from. Without the ability for players to affect each other in a real and meaningful way and the ability to suffer meaningful loss (during pvp & pve) you are left with a flat, boring, uneventful exp and item collecting grind where those levels and items have no real value anyway.
MMORPG
Not everyone that hate open PVP ala Lineage 2 is a carebear.
The majority of people stands in the middle.
I love PVP, but I don't like ganking for the sake of it.
Killing people on sight, doesn't involve a huge amount of thinking, what you need is a higher level character.
You need a system for things to work, and PVP needs a good system too.
Having Open PVP without rules or with no system in place, is simply not fun, like anything else.
In a good RPG you need to create the right balance between PVE and PVP, in a way that both are enjoyable.
I am in favour of a more open PVP but with a good system in place that prevent people spending all their ingame time hiding behind a tree waiting for a newby to be ganked (how fun).
At the moment there is not such PVP around, either is too open or too limited, so I am quite reluctant to play PVP games, but I am not Carebear.
- Players are now protected from blood thirsty PK'ers who seek to kill, loot and steal.
- The thief class is now non-existant. You can't steal from players anymore.
I bet you feel all good and superb inside when you sneak behind the player that's hugging the item he just got after countless of hours of killing and camping and steal it from him and kill him afterwards?
Thank's but i'll rather be a carebear than a sick person like you.
Also love pvp, but I hate people who just play deathmatch all day long.
It´s just coward and senseless to shadow other players waiting until they fight a hard mob to kill them when they are almost dead after defeating the mob.
Ever since I wondered what is so funny about killing noobs for high lvl players.
I havent posted in a while But since this is a topic worth posting in I will.
The problem with this argument lies in the simple fact that Both sides are right, and yet at the same time Wrong. The problem neither lies with the carebear crowd or the Hardcore pvp crowd. It lies in the development of the game, and or rather how you advance in the game. Allow me to explain.
You see, in UO Items were for the most part meaningless. Items were easy to get, Coin was easy to get. Everything wore out and broke unless it was repaired, but the majority of things were disposable. Skills were fairly easy to raise, it was not a instant process however it was Far from a game that would take 3 solid months of hard core grinding to achieve maxed level. Also of note It did not require maxed stats to PvP effectively, though they certaintly helped, a smart player with good tactics could easily best somone with higher skills. Gear was much the same, while it did in fact enhance your ability to fight, it was far from being what made or broke the fight unlike most current games where if your gear sucks it does not honestly matter how good you are. It all boiled down to Skill, Tactics and the ability to know when you are over your head and escape from combat before your health is too low to put up a respectable flight.
You see In Eq-esque games, Level is everything followed closly by gear. Your level and gear are the sole determing factor on if you win or lose a fight. Nothing else, you may argue it all you like but I played EQ for over 5 years along with a number of other games. I played everything from the pvp to top tier guild raiding, and I can honestly say there was zero skill involved in it. It came down to you had the gear and numbers or you did not. On some of the larger raid encounters tactics were a necessity yes, however it still came down to gear and numbers. Now Here is were the root of the problem is and why most carebear players do not like Free open unrestricted pvp, Levels/Gear/Coin are entirely too difficult to attain in most games. High levels, high end gear All of it in this type of game because it Affects the balance so dramatically can take weeks or longer to attain. Were in UO you can aquire a full set of fight worthy gear in half an hour tops, and or the coin to buy it. The same level of gear in an EQ type game may take weeks or even months to attain. Now based on this I can clearly see why people would not want to chance losing any of it. UO would have been a complete failure had it taken the period of time to attain equipment with the freedom in PVP it has. Its pvp is only successful because of ease of attainment and because gear did not make or break a fight.
So from that perspective its fairly easy to see and understand why the carebear players in EQ type games are as opposed to Open PVP. It does not make reasonable sense, to lose all your stuff when its that difficult to attain. As to why most of us Hardcore PVPers do not move on to games like SB..SB was ok..honestly I was disappointed by it. Lineage2 is a flipping joke that is honestly the worst game I have ever played, with its only redeeming qualities being loads of well rendered T & A, which honestly is rather sad and pathetic when you think about it. EvE online is a spectacular game, my only complaint is for a PVP oriented game it takes a serious long time for a beginner to get started..but overall its an extremely good game. I just tend to prefer swords and magic, or a true FPS like BF2.
Now honestly I think alot of carebear players might enjoy a true PVP game like UO if a good one was released. RV looks promising, but then..so did SB and L2..so We will see when it gets here. The formula is pretty simple; unrestricted pvp, no levels, Skill > equipment, items/coin/gear are easy to attain yet wear out quickly to keep the economy up, and finally a Stiff Stiff penalty system for those who choose to engage in Agressive PK behavior. This was one of the hallmarks of UO, I was a PK and as such I accepted the fact that the murderer flag would allow anyone to attack me, and prevent me from going to town. It was a great system. On that note however one of the better systems I have seen them implement is the Young player flag. This was not in early UO and thus there was alot of griefing, however this flag is generally long enough for the new player to get a feel of things and prevents them from being attacked, also the addition of the specific newbie zone was quite nice. I am not objectionable to some hand holding of the newer players so they can get a feel of the game before entering the cold brutality of some aspects, but it needs to be limited. The introduction of Trammel ruined uo, now while I will not bash players in games like EQ who play on blue servers, I will bash anyone who plays in Trammel..That is the most pathetic bunch of losers to ever grace the online gaming market ever. So easy to attain items and coin yet they hide in trammel for fear of fighting something that is more challenging then the seriously dumb AI in UO...and yes the AI in uo is really really dumb.
You know what I find really funny? It's when the minority of the "losers" try to make themselves look better than the majority!
They call theselves "l33t"! To the majority of the other players we consider them illiterate children that can't spell for sh**.
They call themselves "hardcore" and call us "carebears". To the majority of the other players, we consider them loners who should go out more, go back to school, get a job and stop spending over 23 hours a day playing video games all the time.
And why are we, the casual gamers, called "carebears"? That's like saying Ultima Online is the RIGHT WAY to play MMORPGs? Sorry but if World of Warcraft has 2 million players and UO never went past 300,000 players, maybe the right way a MMORPG should be played IS LIKE WoW!!! And that UO is the exagerated and wrong way to play a MMORPG.
I'm not insulted when someone calls me a carebear. Simply because I'm not the one who's gonna die of a heartattack in front of my PC. I'm not the one who's sitting in front of my PC 24 hours a day 7 days a week drinking Coke and eating chips gaining 100 pounds a year. I'm not the one who doesn't have a job or an education.
I am having fun though with the little hours I play the game, but what p1sses me off is when the game developers ONLY give new content to this minority of "hardcore" gamers. They represent a minority, but devs think they represent the majority because they are the ones with too much time on their hands to whine and complain on the forums! We the "carebears" do have lives, we don't have time to complain on forums, so we get nothing.
___________ ___ __ _ _ _
Stealth - Ambush - Hemorrhage - Sinister Strike x2 - Cold Blood - Eviscerate - Vanish - Preparation - Cold Blood - Ambush - ... you're dead! :P
Why is it i want to laugh at every single thread started or involving Luzarius?
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he contradicts things alot..
first off everone needs to need this
-Luzarius hates Lineage 2 he complained about the game in all his pvp threads at the world of warcraft boards because Lineage 2 was too hard!!
Oh yes and i will never agree on the BS of Carebear players being cowards in pvp
-sadly you dont understand the whole premise behind cowardice.. cowardice is the players who alt-F4 when near death.. the ones who pull there modems to escape their deaths.. those people are the so called hardcore pvprs who cant take a loss
the hardcore pvp group cant stand to lose.. the carebears dont care about loosing anything because they arent the ones playing on those ruled servers
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The only reason any completely hardcore FFA pvp buff would call someone a carebear is because they cant stand the fact other people can choose thier style of play and they hate the fact they cant kill every player in the game and loot thier corpses.
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Back to Asherons call is were i learned all this nonsense of red server Darktide vs the white servers
the name calling from darktide populous just because we didnt play on the server as them we are supposedly inferior and o.O's
World War II Online is pure PvP, You can get attacked and killed everywhere, no safe zones! Its brutal, its hard, it rocks!
No game for Carebears!
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Life is too short to play bad games.
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
"Fear not death; for the sooner we die, the longer shall we be immortal."
An interesting reply, but I will make a few points so you understand where I come from. While I agree a good percentage fall into the above stereotype, not all do as with anything.
Point 1, I hate l33t speak as much as the next person with a decent education. Dispite the fact that the education system here in the us is a steaming pile of dogcrap, One has to do the best they can with the tools and resources provided. ( I reference K through 12 not college ) So I agree with you on this perspective, the majority of them are 13 y/o script kiddies who get bullied at school.
Point2, Hardcore has little to nothing to do with the amount of time you spend online. It has everything to do with how good you play it. I used to spend 8 to 10 hours a day gaming back in the UO days, however I was a teen back then with nothing better to do. Now I have a 40 hour a week job, a Wife and bills, I spend an hour or two a night online and 4 to 5 hours sometimes on weekends when they are free. I define hardcore as the ability to play the game more agressively, More skillfully, and with more challenge then the average player. Dispite the fact that my gameplay time has dwindled down, I still have little trouble maxing my characters in an MMO and or being one of the top ranked players in many of the FPS I play...Why? Am I just that good? nope..I simply think differently..A Game is a competition to me..Competition Drives me..Competition is what I find Fun. I do not just enjoy playing a game casually for the sake of playing..I need competition..I need good competition, I need players who will push my skills to the max to best them, and or push me to increasing my skills so I can hope to best them. I thrive off this, once the competition aspect is gone from a game It ceases to be fun in my eyes.
Point 3 Why are casual players called carebears? again stereotyping..on the average most gamers want challenge, but they want it fed to them in a manner that involves as little risk as possible. Hence why you will find nearly all casuals are purly against perma death MMOs, Against Full looting, Against non concentual PVP and the list goes one. where as the other group generally wants those things, as we view non concentual pvp as a way to implement tactics such as stealth and ambush into a game. Look at military battles over the years..Why do you think intelligence is such a big part of it? The goal is to Suprise the enemy to gain the advantage and prevent them from suprising you. Otherwise we go back to American revolution era fighting with men on a field facing off like dumbass's, I believe we know why that was abandoned, Equate concentual pvp to the same thing..
Point 4, Glad your not insulted you shouldnt be. There is honestly nothing wrong with being a carebear..the only thing wrong with it is developers have more or less forced it down the throat of everyone by creating games that are by design very low risk. Also as to the UO vs wow comparison, its rather pointless as When UO first came out PC's were nowhere near as common in households as they are now, the MMO market was brand new, and honestly noone really knew how a game like UO would go over as Meridian 59 while a good game was very exclusive for that time. Do remember when UO came out the Average PC was a 486dx...and the Pentium pro 200mhz had just hit the market and you could own one for the low low price of about 4 grand for a good setup. Where as now you can own a respectable gaming machine for well under $1000. So back then for UO to hit 300k players was nothing short of astonishing, honestly WoW's slightly over a million..sorry its not close to 2mil is impressive yes but by standards it Pales to the 300k of UO because of the time frame and market saturation. Does that make wow any less of a game? no Its a great game but you cannot compare it.
However as to the weight comment, me personally I weigh under 200lbs, workout in the gym 3 times a week and im 6'2" tall, so again Another stereotype I hardly adhere too, again I am not a nerd, I am not socially inept, I am not overweight, nor am I even badly out of shape.
Last point, You are having fun with the amount of time you spend in game? Good then why are you pissed at the devs catering to the hardcore crowd? They aready snubbed us by makeing the game easy enough for everyone and their brother, sister, cousin and mother to play, they already snubbed us by not implementing any of the features I listed earlier, they already snubbed us by not implementing the end game content on release and waiting 2 months before giving loot tables to those npcs or balancing the encounters because they did not actually believe we would be maxed level and beating up on their precious npcs so quick. They instead focused on the majority of making the low and mid level encounters fun, balanced and rewarding. As well as Safe, PK free and generally as low risk of an environment as possible while maintaining some risk to go along with the reward they dole out at a predetermined rate, that they may and do adjust as necessary if its coming out too quickly to keep customers paying for as long as possible. So why the hate to them once all this is done tossing uss a few crumbs off the table..a few encounters here and there a few loot tweaks..but hardly a fraction of what the casual base gets.
They focus on us for a very simple reason..We push the game foward. We are the ones who create the spiffy videos that people pass around the net, We are the ones who have the nice websites with lots of flash integrated, Lots of screenshots of the top end "Uber" equipment. These are the things that a large percentage of the casual crowd look at and hope to have someday. It pushes the game foward as the maximum rate, if it was not for the hardcore crowd the Devs of most big companies would be content to push content out as slow as possible to continue milking as much money out of their customers as possible. Do you think content development is cheap? Its not, as a matter of fact it is very very expensive. These companies are not out to be your friend, they are not your buddy, they at their core are about making money. Argue all you want but a corporation is designed with one purpose alone, and that is to generate revenue for its owner and shareholders. Any corporation that states otherwise is full of crap and can be expected to either go bankrupt or renig on that statement fairly shortly. Yes I am certain Alot are in it for the fun as well, but to state they are in it for the fun only while charging a monthly fee that exceeds in any manner the cost of maintenance is utterly absurd.
The MMORPG market needs both crowds, its a symbotic relationship neither group can survive without the other. The Casual market Supports the game financially, while the Hardcore market pushes the game foward. If the hardcore market goes away, then the game becomes stale and the casual base eventually gets tired and leaves. the casuals leave and the game financally collapses.
haahhaa.. none of those games require much skill . You know "Pointy Clicky" is not all that hard
how ever meet me on any pre t2a - t2a UO server and fight me and ill show you true skill
Wait so you're saying BF2 and Halo 2 don't require skill? You've abviosly never played ether of those games if you're saying that. Or you don't know what skill is because you say UO takes true skill.
The problem is no penalties for PVP. In a MUD I played in you could be captured and subjected to a slow torturous death that lasted for 45 minutes. If you got too far out of control (ie warranted 2 slow deaths in the same night) Your character would be celled for 24 hours. The capture generally happened in or near towns. Of course in this game there was an assassin's guild where you take out contracts on characters (on a personal note I didnt use such services as the Player leader of the Assassin's guild and I usually murdered each other regularly) Members of the assassin's guild were protected from having contracts taken out on them but could be booted by the player character who held the highest seat in the guild. The highest level in any given class was restricted to a player who functioned as the guild leader for that "kingdom" and the next level down was restricted to council members. The Devs were interactive so guilds were prone to have attempted coups where those held underneath could replace current council members and the Devs would mark it and oversee the nuts and bolts of "demotions".
The PVP in MMORPGs is a far cry from the level of political and potential dangers of that style of PVP. I think PVP would be fun for so called Hardcore PVP and Carebear players alike if there was a real political element and a real punishment element (would it be worth it to get an 8 hour timeout in a game over killing some low level schmoe?) I thought the addition of a class dedicated to sanctioned PK also had a nice flavor so players getting repeatedly PKed in the deep wilderness could always contact the assassins guild for some retribution. Players were given "immunity" from PK for 3 minutes after logging in unless they initiated PVP.. Immunity meant you could still be attacked and killed but the player doing such would be flagged for public execution regardless of where they did it. Sadly no immunity was granted if a character logged out in battle which made having a touch and go connection a possible death sentence (you really had to trust the people you were grouped with)