@Leoghan: you're wrong in your earlier assumptions. Not going to elaborate, too much work to repost the arguments why, if the post will be removed anyway afterwards If you care to know why or how, just PM me.
Originally posted by WSIMike
The more hype I hear for a game, the more "meh" I get as well.
So, that means you'll probably not be interested in GW2 or any of the other upcoming 'big titles' as well, Arche Age, World of Darkness, etc, if the hype gets too big?
I say illusion of choice because I don't get a real choice, do I? I have options that the writers and designers have already set out for me, with the outcomes decided long before I even get to that branch in the storyline. I get to choose "A", "B" or "C". What if my actual choice would have been something else entirely? Whoops... no option "D" for that.
It's more choice than current quest leveling, where you can only click for 'accept quest', or are you saying that you very much more prefer the current questing in the current MMO's?
It sounds more like ToR will be a single player, "Choose Your Own Adventure" style affair - much like their offline titles - where you happen to be online talking and interacting with other players.
Thanks, but no thanks.
That's your choice. However, SWTOR will be a fully fledged AAA themepark MMO, if that's not the kind of MMO that you're able to enjoy, then that's up to you of course, but it doesn't change the fact that SWTOR still is very much a themepark MMORPG.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am thrilled about SWTOR. My friends and I were screaming and cheering on vent when the pre-orders dropped. We experienced the excitement of anticipation together!
Do I like everything about it, nope. Do I think it will be everything I want in a MMO, nope. Do I expect it to walk on water or change the gaming universe forever, nope. Do I think it will be going to Mecca for SW fans, nope. Do I care, nope! You know why it looks like it be fun! Lot's folks who have played said it was fun. Some those people had been critics before playing it even. I want to play it to see if really is as fun as I think it will be.
My thought on this article is why the heck is it on the front page of a web site dedicated to MMO news. The author has not played it, has only a passing interest in the game, why heck would I give two figs about how she feels about the game.
I am one of the many pretty outspoken old school star wars fans that think this "new" design is not right. Besides that I haven't seen anything new interesting or really improved over the common standard mmo design I've played adnausieum.
I saw and then played SWG, and while the wide-open sandbox (no Tattooine pun intended) game has some merits, it's long been discredited as a MMORPG method because: if you give people freedom and anonymity, they will abuse it.
Secondly, as a Star Wars fan from age 9 (first showing, 1977) on, I think frankly Bioware has done more in developing the mythos with its "Old Republic" games than Lucas ever did with the first three films -- and Lucas' later efforts have only soured the original.
However, I'm still not pre-ordering; there hasn't been a thing EA has touched that it hasn't spoiled. I will watch and see what happens, and hope for massive success for this game.
The more hype I hear for a game, the more "meh" I get as well.
So, that means you'll probably not be interested in GW2 or any of the other upcoming 'big titles' as well, Arche Age, World of Darkness, etc, if the hype gets too big?
Let me put it this way... The more hyped up something becomes, the more skeptical I become of it. That goes for games, books, movies, music, etc. I didn't see The Matrix 'til months after it released. I still ended up enjoying it... I just got tired of the hype for it. Same went for Avatar. Same goes for ToR.
I say illusion of choice because I don't get a real choice, do I? I have options that the writers and designers have already set out for me, with the outcomes decided long before I even get to that branch in the storyline. I get to choose "A", "B" or "C". What if my actual choice would have been something else entirely? Whoops... no option "D" for that.
It's more choice than current quest leveling, where you can only click for 'accept quest', or are you saying that you very much more prefer the current questing in the current MMO's?
You seem to be missing my point. How ToR's questing is compared to other MMOs is irrelevant.
My statement is in response to one of the areas of ToR 's hype; the whole thing of "having meaningful choices in a well-presented storyline" being "what MMO gamers really want". That's basically just BioWare tooting their own horn, presuming to know what I, as a gamer, "really want in a MMO", because it just *happens* to be the kind of game they're delivering.
Unlocking someone else's storyline through pre-decided "A, B or C" options is not "what I really want" in a MMO... BioWare's PR to the contrary notwithstanding.
It sounds more like ToR will be a single player, "Choose Your Own Adventure" style affair - much like their offline titles - where you happen to be online talking and interacting with other players.
Thanks, but no thanks.
That's your choice. However, SWTOR will be a fully fledged AAA themepark MMO, if that's not the kind of MMO that you're able to enjoy, then that's up to you of course, but it doesn't change the fact that SWTOR still is very much a themepark MMORPG.
Well that's awful nice of you, Maverick. I can sleep peacefully knowing I have your "permission" to choose whether or not I want to play a MMO. Thank you so... so much for your generosity in letting me make that choice for myself.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
It's more choice than current quest leveling, where you can only click for 'accept quest', or are you saying that you very much more prefer the current questing in the current MMO's?
You seem to be missing my point. How ToR's questing is compared to other MMOs is irrelevant My statement is in response to one of the areas of ToR 's hype; the whole thing of "having meaningful choices in a well-presented storyline" being "what MMO gamers really want". That's basically just BioWare tooting their own horn, presuming to know what I, as a gamer, "really want in a MMO", because it just *happens* to be the kind of game they're delivering. Unlocking someone else's storyline through pre-decided "A, B or C" options is not "what I really want" in a MMO... BioWare's PR to the contrary notwithstanding. 1)
That's your choice. However, SWTOR will be a fully fledged AAA themepark MMO, if that's not the kind of MMO that you're able to enjoy, then that's up to you of course, but it doesn't change the fact that SWTOR still is very much a themepark MMORPG.
Well that's awful nice of you, Maverick. I can sleep peacefully knowing I have your "permission" to choose whether or not I want to play a MMO. Thank you so... so much for your generosity in letting me make that choice for myself 2).
1) Ok, fair enough. I only mention this point because I hardly see anybody who complains about SWTOR's questing system, talk about the current traditional questing system that this is a replacement of.
Which is odd to me: if ppl complain about SWTOR's system, then how do they regard the current quest leveling system then? I as good as never hear those complainers talk about the merits of the current questing system in MMO's.
My guess is that in most of those cases because they also dislike the current themepark MMO's and quest leveling, so BW's story questing revamp for SWTOR just doesn't do it for them, because quest leveling in MMO's in general leaves them cold and indifferent.
Me, as someone who likes themepark gameplay and don't hate quest leveling, I see it as an improvement of the quest leveling process, which is still a lot of gameplay hours that you'll be doing while leveling in themepark MMO's.
2) You're welcome
I find it rather sad though that you chose to get unnecessarily sarcastic - which I find rather unconstructive and detrimental to the discussion - instead of focusing on the real point, namely that SWTOR is as much an MMORPG and themepark MMORPG as other themepark MMO's. Unless you wanted to avoid that specific matter because it's a truth that's hard to dismiss, then of course your reply makes sense. Anyway, like I said, you're welcome, glad to help.
Originally posted by Rhoklaw
Don't worry my dear, the reason you feel 'meh' is because there hasn't been a decent MMO launched in almost a decade. Theres a lot of mediocres out there which can leave a sour taste in anyones mouth. Whether it's GW2, TSW, SW:TOR or whatever, I'm thinking a lot of people will be disappointed in their favorite game.
Honestly, this isn't even about SW:TOR, it's pretty much all MMOs as of late.
This reminds me of that joke, the elderly couple that's driving on the highway, listening to the radio, when suddenly they hear the message over the radio, 'a ghost-driver spotted on route 6, people on that road take extra care'.
To which the man mutters to his wife 'one ghost-driver? There's hundreds of them!'
Saying that sometimes if someone (not meaning you, Rhoklaw, speaking in general here) feels that everything has become different for the past 10 years, in this case MMO's, then maybe it's himself that has changed as well, his stance nad position, maybe even more so than that the environment has changed.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
@Distopia - which is why I write an opinion column, not a news one It's what they pay me for.
I'm ambivalent. Yeah, to some extent I would want to be frothing about it, because anticipating game releases is part of the fun in the MMO community. I frothed quietly to myself about the latest Dresden book release (and promptly devoured it in a few hours *burp*). I don't much froth about movies these days, but the point to me is that it doesn't come down to just interest/no interest. There are degrees of interest and I'd like to be more excited about SWTOR than I am.
That said, since it is pure opinion, you're perfectly entitled to your own - as long as I get to have mine.
Between that and this article, you're my hero now.
I'm getting to a point where if it was a 100% single player game just with other players in the world I might be interested, but as it stands the game just doesn't fit my Star Wars MMO desires. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I hope the people who pick the game up enjoy it, but I really wish they'd back up and realize we are not all like them.
Personally I think it's the crowd that dislikes themepark MMO's or that's burnt out on themepark MMO gameplay that actually has a problem realising that not everyone hates/dislikes themepark MMO gameplay like they do. many of the SWTOR fans that post here are perfectly aware that SWTOR won't satisfy sandbox fans and other jaded MMO vets who can't stomach traditional themepark gameplay anymore, and they're fine with it that those ppl don't have the same gaming taste. They're not fine if people keep repeating over and over and over again that they dislike this or that feature or dislike/hate SWTOR for not being what they wanted it to be, instead of moving on. Such behavior steers towards needless, unconstructive whining .
Edit: by the way, any article about SWTOR (or any game still in development) is going to be an opinion piece unless it just rattles off the known information about the game...
Any piece that is not a news update but a personal reflection about a topic is an opinion piece, that said, I have seen more thorough and more informed ones than just a 'I don't like this' blurt
I think its more a sense that people just don't want to like things because the industry has an overabundance of themepark gameplay, and at first, you would think its fine to not like something because the industry is "flooded" with a particular style.... but then, you take notice. Its not that the industry is flooded so much as its that its SWTOR that is being talked about here.
We hear it here more than anywhere else, because so many people here believe "sandbox" titles will be the future, and have always been the "future" ever since that style of gameplay failed to catch on many years ago.
I like sandbox games, but I'm not going to be angry at BioWare because SWTOR isn't one, or because yet one more year goes by with no awesome sandbox titles to look forward to.
Its not about sandbox games anymore, its not about the feature list either. Its about popularity and this community. The more popular something is, the more people will want to attack it. It appears everyone here has selected their underdogs of choice here, and hold BioWare responsible for everything they aren't getting in the industry today.
I'd hope people would eventually grow out of it, but it seems the longer it is without them getting exactly what they want, the more entrenched they are believing nothing will ever be good enough.
No, I think you hear it here more because of the fans being very loud about how this is how MMOs should be made. That sentiment is something that just isn't shared by a great deal many folks. Sure, it may not be 12 million folks, but it's certainly more than the anti-sandboxers will relaistically give credit for.
So, yes, they are vocal on this fan-touted flagship of how the genre should make games fearing that, just as the majority of developers who have money to realistically put effort into an MMO will jump on the "Out TOR, TOR" bandwagon just as they did with trying to "out WOW, WoW".
We know those other developers are watching which is why people not into what TOR is offering are being vocal to let these folks know that this isn't the only way you have to make an MMO and that there is a Sandbox market, indeed a market for something that isn't themepark, whatever we end up calling it, out there.
And truthfully, I think if you read what alot of them are saying, they aren't asking for TOR to be changed. Sure, they may cite things known in TOR and list that as a reason they aren't playing TOR, but I don't believe it is a direct attack on TOR. It's on the themepark monopoly.
Like it or not, the greater majority of ex SWG players don't really care about TOR as much as some try to make them out to be. THey know TOR isn't offering them a SWG experience or anything else they want. They just happen to be around in the aforementioned group voicing displeasure with the current themepark monopoly.
And the best place to try to get that message across is on the current leading in production themepark games forums where most certainly other developers are reading.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Different strokes for different folks I say. I have played most of the games but with my add not sure that any game can really hold my attention for more than a few months but I am ready for something more than elves, dwarves, and orcs. I'm gonna give SW:TOR a go when it comes out, at least till Secret World comes out but who know howlong that's gonna be? Near as I can tell TSW isn't on the near horizon yet.
Haha.That is a priceless opening line.And the responses are funny too.People getting mad because this is on the homepage lol.Seriously people.She knew it would strike a nerve.It tells you that before she even started the actual article.
I persenolly love opinion pieces because of the debate and rage on the internet is extremely funny.And everyone knows that MMORPG..com's forums are amongst the best for the crazies and furiously passionate gamers.
That being said. I am with ya on this one.I am not excited at all for this game atm.Maybe after I talk to someone (I mean someone I actually know) who plays it I will give it a shot , or a shot in the head.Either way if I do try it, definately won't be at launch.the things I read about it just don't excite me.so much now that I stopped reading about it almost entirely.But It will probably be a good niche game.Maybe a huge success.Who knows?No one .We will see...... Good job getting the gears grinding.
Y'know what doesn't excite me? Hamburgers. Hamburgers don't excite me isabelle. I still eat them, and usually after eating them, I'm content.
I mean basically the idea behind the opinion was a nice topical overview of what most of the people who want to dislike the game are saying. Thats fine, seeing as how there are many people that aren't that interested in finding information on something, and even more that wish to hate anything that happens to be popular.
So, whats this about hamburgers? Well, even though I'm not excited about eating hamburgers, I still do. I never really stop to think of why I'm eating said hamburger, when its not exciting to me like, say, some new kind of french indian fusion would be, or 10 lbs of lobster. In the end though, sometimes just liking something for what it is should be good enough, even if hamburgers are popular, even if there are a lot of places who make ones with slight similarities, or if its not as good as the one you ate at "that place you went to that one time".
And truly, at the end of the day, you'll still be eating SWTOR. Er.... well, okay, what you do with it is up to you, but my premise behind it is simple, its really hard for anyone interested in RPGs, MMORPGs, SWRPG, and SWMMORPGs, to completely stray away from this title. Even in its most basic form of a "single player" title, people would still flock to it. I think people want to set themselves up to remove any hype they could have, simply because of the popularity of the title. In that end, I think they may also be setting themselves up so theres a chance to be pleasantly surprised.
So many critics (eventhough there aren't that many after actually trying the game, but I digress) that say that SWTOR is "just this" or "just that" always end with the caveat that they're still going to buy and play the game, regardless of the loss of excitement, regardless of the mixed feelings, regardless of the hype train. If there are so many red flags you'd imagine people wouldn't still be interested in buying the game. Maybe those flags aren't as red as people want us to believe...
I just wanted to mention that most of us critics aren't looking for reasons to dislike MMO's, or TOR specifically, and it has nothing to do with a lack of information being sought or because we'd just like to hate anything that's popular. Quite frankly, I think it's a bit offensive to assume that people who are discussing their negativity regarding this certain game are uninformed haters, rather than just skeptical (perhaps like any consumer in the MMO market should be).
It's true that I haven't played it, and like you've mentioned, I'm going to buy it despite being apathetic toward this entire endeavor. If you're a true fan of MMO's, you'll try everything and determine for yourself through the experience whether or not you actually enjoy it, and there simply aren't enough of these games to skip something as important or media centric as TOR. And hey, if it turns out to be great and I find myself enjoying it, that would be fantastic, but until that time takes place, I'm not sure that what I've seen proves to me this is something I haven't already done before repeatedly for the last five or more years.
Personally, I'm a bit tired of hamburgers. It's fine if you can still stomach them, and I don't think it would be right for anyone to discredit that, but I like variety in my diet. It's hard for me to eat the same damn thing day after day.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
MMOs are pretty much one of the cheapest forms of entertainment around , an article like this that starts with the woes of buying a Pre Order is just straight out poor.
Difficult to not get values for money with any MMO these days even if you only get a weeks worth of gameplay.
Poor article all around.
SWTOR interests me ; Is it an end of the world game well not really because MMOs have lost their way and only just clas as games these days. If any MMOhas a chance to change that and provide something with lots of content where love and effort has been put into it you can't get much more than that these days and I think Bioware will deliver.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
So, yes, they are vocal on this fan-touted flagship of how the genre should make games fearing that, just as the majority of developers who have money to realistically put effort into an MMO will jump on the "Out TOR, TOR" bandwagon just as they did with trying to "out WOW, WoW".
We know those other developers are watching which is why people not into what TOR is offering are being vocal to let these folks know that this isn't the only way you have to make an MMO and that there is a Sandbox market, indeed a market for something that isn't themepark, whatever we end up calling it, out there.
And truthfully, I think if you read what alot of them are saying, they aren't asking for TOR to be changed. Sure, they may cite things known in TOR and list that as a reason they aren't playing TOR, but I don't believe it is a direct attack on TOR. It's on the themepark monopoly.
Like it or not, the greater majority of ex SWG players don't really care about TOR as much as some try to make them out to be. THey know TOR isn't offering them a SWG experience or anything else they want. They just happen to be around in the aforementioned group voicing displeasure with the current themepark monopoly.
And the best place to try to get that message across is on the current leading in production themepark games forums where most certainly other developers are reading.
Good point.
Not that I agree with it, and I certainly don't think that all TOR complainers or trashtalkers are working according to mentioned philosophy above. Also I disagree that 'hate crusading' and continuous trashtalking of SWTOR, just because someone wants the themepark genre to fail and sandbox MMO's to rise, is the way to go, it merely polarizes debates, plus there are non-themepark MMO's upcoming, it'd be better to just support those than bash others.
But nonetheless, your arguments were clear, elaborate and enlightening for why at least some critics keep following and hammering on a game they've no intention of playing.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Last month, my main gaming forum shut down. I was a moderator there for over ten years. I miss that place. I was hoping to make mmorpg.com my new home to talk about games but sadly Im not sure this is a healthy environment to talk about my favorite hobby.
There are exactly 4 types of threads on this site:
Predictions
Versus
Haters
Fanboys
I cant remember the last time I participated in a discussion here that was constructive. I cant remember the last time I participated in a discussion here that involved game strategies. I see a few posts here and there that start out in the right direction but within a few relies it caves into one of the four main types of threads. Who knows maybe I'll get banned for making a reply like this... again heh.
I just want to find a nice forum where people can come together and talk about mmos without having to wade through so much hate and blind fanaticism. Are there any out there that someone can point me to? Cause I think Im done with this place. Articles like this just add more to the fire and Im already burnt to a crisp. I dont mind debates, I enjoy seeing other people's point of view. But these arent healthy debates, these are just personal opinions being picked apart or vaulted to the ceiling. Another persons point of view is seen as a threat around here. Its a common occurrence for pages of bickering all due to an initial misunderstanding or someone getting a fact wrong.
So anyway, Im hoping maybe some folks around here know of a gaming community where people talk about the games themselves. Not how they feel about games that arent out yet.
Sorry, Im not ranting. Im not mad, or upset. Im just a little let down by this place and would like to find a new home. Thanks.
I think there are a lot of very smart, inciteful people on this site. The problem is that (and this is a guess) there are a lot of people on this site who probably came to this site when the mmo genre was young. Not realizing that games are like any other medium, they took a turn down the "I'm getting popular and this is what happens" road and suddenly these players find themselves disnfranchised.
Now, they some people have to continually post the "I'm tired of x and this is why" or "thsi game sux, read all inside" posts is another thread all together.
But from what I've seen, disnefranchised individuals want to be able to "do something". But when there is nothing they can do their energy turns toward the path of anger (wait... the dark side? hmmmmm)
I bet if you started an actual discussion thread you would find a good many responses that were interesting. You might also find the one or two people who feel that they have to spew poison but that can easily be taken care of if it flies in the face of the rules of conduct.
In any case, I've checked out Massivlely because someone on this site had indicated that it was "better". Oh, I found some great news but the discussions didn't seem that interesting. At least at the time.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
You're not alone: I too am not excited about it. The CG trailers are freaking awesome, but the main problem for me is: it won't be the Old Republic from the Knights of the Old Republic series.
Now, everytime Lucasarts needs to tell more story, they just skip tens of thousands of years in the future or in the past. It's getting to a point where I'd accept parallel realities just to be with my favorite characters and events from the KotOR series or the original movies.
Great article and great comments! I am looking forward to SW:TOR coming out, but I am not jumping up and down with excitement. I am an SWG (preCU/NGE) fan and I am not expecting this to be ANYTHING like that. If I even dared to compare them I would be disappointed. I have not pre-paid, cuz I usually wait 'til after all the hype, watch a few Youtube videos of it, then buy the game and try it out.
Yes, perhaps I've become jaded, but when I see multiple people who also feel this way, I begin to think otherwise.
Games I've played since EQ ( my original MMO )
Of that list, I probably thoroughly enjoyed 5 games, most of which were released quite a while ago.
Dark Age of Camelot - Anarchy Online - Shadowbane - Planetside - SWG before it was shot in the face by LA
Of those 5 games, I have yet to see a duplicate made, except for Planetside ( still waiting for more info ). Apparently the games I enjoy are niche except for maybe SWG. However, I'm pretty certain an updated version of DAoC or SWG would probably have done better then SW:TOR, GW2 or any other game coming out in sales. Too bad EA Mythic and LA are flat out blind when it comes to seeing the market frenzy.
I'm pretty certain that this is just a comfortable delusion, comfortable because it's an imaginary situation and those can always be right.
The harsh reality though is that SWG was losing subs already, and it was losing them hard when the new MMO's EQ2 and SWTOR launched, proving the point that a lot of MMO gamers like to hop when new appealing MMO's come out. It didn't just lose those subs for a month or 2, 3, nope, more and more SWG players wanted to give EQ2 and WoW a try and what's more, they stayed in those games. That was the real truth: SWG might have had a hard core of fans who preferred sandbox/SWG styled gameplay above anything else, but it also had whole hordes of players who were just looking for a fun MMO, not particularly SWG or sandbox, and when those new MMO's arrived, one a sequel to the legendary EQ and another made by one of the dominant game developers around, they didn't hesitate to jump ship.
So, my guess is that sure, you'll have a sizeable contingent of MMO gamers when a sandbox MMO or hybrid comes out, because let's face it, at the moment hardcore sandbox gamers are practically homeless and they have been that way, without an MMO to truly enjoy and lose themselves in, for years and years now. All those will jump like rabid, starved wolves on a clueless bunny when an AAA sandbox or hybrid MMO will arrive.
However, how it'll be regarding the rest of the MMO playerbase, those millions and millions of MMO gamers who preferred themepark or 'game focused design' MMO's above sandbox or 'world oriented design' MMO's, that remains to be seen. Lessons from the past 6-7 years is that the larger majority prefers MMO's where the design is 'game focused' (where WoW styled themepark MMO's is just one branch) above MMO's where the design is 'world oriented' (sandbox styled MMO's).
Of course, my own stance is that an MMO ideally should have both aspects in full availability and not steer towards one or the other extreme.
Anyway, this is all speculation for the moment in any case. We'll see when the upcoming MMO's arrive how things will be, there'll be more traditional themepark MMO's like SWTOR and TERA, new trends of themepark or 'game focused' MMO's like TSW and GW2, MMOFPS in the form of Firefall and Planetside 2, and even sandbox oriented MMO's like the hybrid Arche Age and (possibly) World of Darkness.
So, time will tell how things will end up when it comes to MMO gaming
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wow, lots of comments. I consider myself a pretty big star wars fan, but I just can't get over the aspect that this isn't just another themepark MMO, but it's a themepark MMO on rails that is forcing a story on you. I have yet to figure out what the endgame PvP content is going to be. PvE raiding is not fun (for me), so I'm looking for some kind of sandbox PvP content at the end that will keep me coming back again and again. I don't think it is this game, which is apparently all about telling a story. If I want a story, I'll go read a book. I don't mind themepark MMOs if they have a sandbox PvP aspect to it.
As such, this game currently doesn't have me that excited. In fact, I'll probably wait 4-5 months after launch and hear the reviews of the endgame before I sub. I did that with Rift and seems to be the smart decision not to buy that game.
Weird, another person wanting this game to be SWG2 . Who woulda thunk!
Not only that, but she admits to not getting excited about a game for several years. Sounds like someone might have some gaming burnout. I get the same way with commercials on TV. So tired of them that I actually avoid buying products I see advertised.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Ok so maybe I am more in the minority for the morning crowd, but come on this is bioware. They made KoTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age. The developer know how to put a shine on a good RPG.
The biggest worry and maybe the biggest memory for EA is Warhammer. They rushed a game out that was great until you hit 40. The dungeons were buggy, and city raids were just bad. There seemed to be no end to the amount of problems. They went from 6 cities to 2. Lets not forget that several classes didn't make release. Warhammer should be remembered for the great game it should have been if EA hadn't forced it out the door a year early.
If Boiware finishes SWTOR, and has a plan to keep new content rolling out. I don't see how this game fails. The conversation system is right out of mass effect. A game I have played through 6 times. The PvP looks like something right out of Warhammer. Still got my fingers crossed for an open world RvR planet.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Warhammer made by Mythic BEFORE BioWare bought them?
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Originally posted by GMan3 Originally posted by dalynch83Ok so maybe I am more in the minority for the morning crowd, but come on this is bioware. They made KoTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect, Dragon Age. The developer know how to put a shine on a good RPG.The biggest worry and maybe the biggest memory for EA is Warhammer. They rushed a game out that was great until you hit 40. The dungeons were buggy, and city raids were just bad. There seemed to be no end to the amount of problems. They went from 6 cities to 2. Lets not forget that several classes didn't make release. Warhammer should be remembered for the great game it should have been if EA hadn't forced it out the door a year early.If Boiware finishes SWTOR, and has a plan to keep new content rolling out. I don't see how this game fails. The conversation system is right out of mass effect. A game I have played through 6 times. The PvP looks like something right out of Warhammer. Still got my fingers crossed for an open world RvR planet.
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Warhammer made by Mythic BEFORE BioWare bought them?
Comments
@Leoghan: you're wrong in your earlier assumptions. Not going to elaborate, too much work to repost the arguments why, if the post will be removed anyway afterwards
If you care to know why or how, just PM me.
That's your choice. However, SWTOR will be a fully fledged AAA themepark MMO, if that's not the kind of MMO that you're able to enjoy, then that's up to you of course, but it doesn't change the fact that SWTOR still is very much a themepark MMORPG.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I am excited about this game for many reasons.
I cant tell you how I know... I can only confirm that I know.
...but to each his own. I dont wish any other mmo to fail, but I wont be playing them.
It seems a common problem in today's market. People are disenfranchised with the mmorpg arena.
I'd like to resolve this personally, but I'd need help from people, such as yourself.
Take a look at this post and tell me what you think of the concepts involved within:
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/324038/Just-a-brief-annoucement.html
Signed-
minusian@gmail.com
I am thrilled about SWTOR. My friends and I were screaming and cheering on vent when the pre-orders dropped. We experienced the excitement of anticipation together!
Do I like everything about it, nope. Do I think it will be everything I want in a MMO, nope. Do I expect it to walk on water or change the gaming universe forever, nope. Do I think it will be going to Mecca for SW fans, nope. Do I care, nope! You know why it looks like it be fun! Lot's folks who have played said it was fun. Some those people had been critics before playing it even. I want to play it to see if really is as fun as I think it will be.
My thought on this article is why the heck is it on the front page of a web site dedicated to MMO news. The author has not played it, has only a passing interest in the game, why heck would I give two figs about how she feels about the game.
[Mod Edit]
I might play it but not at release. Meh
Sic Luceat Lux
Can't agree (with the editorial), sorry.
I saw and then played SWG, and while the wide-open sandbox (no Tattooine pun intended) game has some merits, it's long been discredited as a MMORPG method because: if you give people freedom and anonymity, they will abuse it.
Secondly, as a Star Wars fan from age 9 (first showing, 1977) on, I think frankly Bioware has done more in developing the mythos with its "Old Republic" games than Lucas ever did with the first three films -- and Lucas' later efforts have only soured the original.
However, I'm still not pre-ordering; there hasn't been a thing EA has touched that it hasn't spoiled. I will watch and see what happens, and hope for massive success for this game.
Be seeing you.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
the SW:TOR hype has been so massive that it’s triggered my ‘meh’ response. Quit telling me how excited I am and let me decide for myself!
The quote above is a perfect way to describe my feeling about TOR too.
I also agreed with everything in the article. Well written and spot on!
If you don't worry about it, it's not a problem.
1) Ok, fair enough. I only mention this point because I hardly see anybody who complains about SWTOR's questing system, talk about the current traditional questing system that this is a replacement of.
Which is odd to me: if ppl complain about SWTOR's system, then how do they regard the current quest leveling system then? I as good as never hear those complainers talk about the merits of the current questing system in MMO's.
My guess is that in most of those cases because they also dislike the current themepark MMO's and quest leveling, so BW's story questing revamp for SWTOR just doesn't do it for them, because quest leveling in MMO's in general leaves them cold and indifferent.
Me, as someone who likes themepark gameplay and don't hate quest leveling, I see it as an improvement of the quest leveling process, which is still a lot of gameplay hours that you'll be doing while leveling in themepark MMO's.
2) You're welcome
I find it rather sad though that you chose to get unnecessarily sarcastic - which I find rather unconstructive and detrimental to the discussion - instead of focusing on the real point, namely that SWTOR is as much an MMORPG and themepark MMORPG as other themepark MMO's. Unless you wanted to avoid that specific matter because it's a truth that's hard to dismiss, then of course your reply makes sense. Anyway, like I said, you're welcome, glad to help.
This reminds me of that joke, the elderly couple that's driving on the highway, listening to the radio, when suddenly they hear the message over the radio, 'a ghost-driver spotted on route 6, people on that road take extra care'.
To which the man mutters to his wife 'one ghost-driver? There's hundreds of them!'
Saying that sometimes if someone (not meaning you, Rhoklaw, speaking in general here) feels that everything has become different for the past 10 years, in this case MMO's, then maybe it's himself that has changed as well, his stance nad position, maybe even more so than that the environment has changed.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Between that and this article, you're my hero now.
No, I think you hear it here more because of the fans being very loud about how this is how MMOs should be made. That sentiment is something that just isn't shared by a great deal many folks. Sure, it may not be 12 million folks, but it's certainly more than the anti-sandboxers will relaistically give credit for.
So, yes, they are vocal on this fan-touted flagship of how the genre should make games fearing that, just as the majority of developers who have money to realistically put effort into an MMO will jump on the "Out TOR, TOR" bandwagon just as they did with trying to "out WOW, WoW".
We know those other developers are watching which is why people not into what TOR is offering are being vocal to let these folks know that this isn't the only way you have to make an MMO and that there is a Sandbox market, indeed a market for something that isn't themepark, whatever we end up calling it, out there.
And truthfully, I think if you read what alot of them are saying, they aren't asking for TOR to be changed. Sure, they may cite things known in TOR and list that as a reason they aren't playing TOR, but I don't believe it is a direct attack on TOR. It's on the themepark monopoly.
Like it or not, the greater majority of ex SWG players don't really care about TOR as much as some try to make them out to be. THey know TOR isn't offering them a SWG experience or anything else they want. They just happen to be around in the aforementioned group voicing displeasure with the current themepark monopoly.
And the best place to try to get that message across is on the current leading in production themepark games forums where most certainly other developers are reading.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Different strokes for different folks I say. I have played most of the games but with my add not sure that any game can really hold my attention for more than a few months but I am ready for something more than elves, dwarves, and orcs. I'm gonna give SW:TOR a go when it comes out, at least till Secret World comes out but who know howlong that's gonna be? Near as I can tell TSW isn't on the near horizon yet.
"Flame suit? Check. Thick skin? Check. Obligatory disclaimer? Coming right up."
Haha.That is a priceless opening line.And the responses are funny too.People getting mad because this is on the homepage lol.Seriously people.She knew it would strike a nerve.It tells you that before she even started the actual article.
I persenolly love opinion pieces because of the debate and rage on the internet is extremely funny.And everyone knows that MMORPG..com's forums are amongst the best for the crazies and furiously passionate gamers.
That being said. I am with ya on this one.I am not excited at all for this game atm.Maybe after I talk to someone (I mean someone I actually know) who plays it I will give it a shot , or a shot in the head.Either way if I do try it, definately won't be at launch.the things I read about it just don't excite me.so much now that I stopped reading about it almost entirely.But It will probably be a good niche game.Maybe a huge success.Who knows?No one .We will see...... Good job getting the gears grinding.
I just wanted to mention that most of us critics aren't looking for reasons to dislike MMO's, or TOR specifically, and it has nothing to do with a lack of information being sought or because we'd just like to hate anything that's popular. Quite frankly, I think it's a bit offensive to assume that people who are discussing their negativity regarding this certain game are uninformed haters, rather than just skeptical (perhaps like any consumer in the MMO market should be).
It's true that I haven't played it, and like you've mentioned, I'm going to buy it despite being apathetic toward this entire endeavor. If you're a true fan of MMO's, you'll try everything and determine for yourself through the experience whether or not you actually enjoy it, and there simply aren't enough of these games to skip something as important or media centric as TOR. And hey, if it turns out to be great and I find myself enjoying it, that would be fantastic, but until that time takes place, I'm not sure that what I've seen proves to me this is something I haven't already done before repeatedly for the last five or more years.
Personally, I'm a bit tired of hamburgers. It's fine if you can still stomach them, and I don't think it would be right for anyone to discredit that, but I like variety in my diet. It's hard for me to eat the same damn thing day after day.
"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)
MMOs are pretty much one of the cheapest forms of entertainment around , an article like this that starts with the woes of buying a Pre Order is just straight out poor.
Difficult to not get values for money with any MMO these days even if you only get a weeks worth of gameplay.
Poor article all around.
SWTOR interests me ; Is it an end of the world game well not really because MMOs have lost their way and only just clas as games these days. If any MMOhas a chance to change that and provide something with lots of content where love and effort has been put into it you can't get much more than that these days and I think Bioware will deliver.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
Good point.
Not that I agree with it, and I certainly don't think that all TOR complainers or trashtalkers are working according to mentioned philosophy above. Also I disagree that 'hate crusading' and continuous trashtalking of SWTOR, just because someone wants the themepark genre to fail and sandbox MMO's to rise, is the way to go, it merely polarizes debates, plus there are non-themepark MMO's upcoming, it'd be better to just support those than bash others.
But nonetheless, your arguments were clear, elaborate and enlightening for why at least some critics keep following and hammering on a game they've no intention of playing.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I think there are a lot of very smart, inciteful people on this site. The problem is that (and this is a guess) there are a lot of people on this site who probably came to this site when the mmo genre was young. Not realizing that games are like any other medium, they took a turn down the "I'm getting popular and this is what happens" road and suddenly these players find themselves disnfranchised.
Now, they some people have to continually post the "I'm tired of x and this is why" or "thsi game sux, read all inside" posts is another thread all together.
But from what I've seen, disnefranchised individuals want to be able to "do something". But when there is nothing they can do their energy turns toward the path of anger (wait... the dark side? hmmmmm)
I bet if you started an actual discussion thread you would find a good many responses that were interesting. You might also find the one or two people who feel that they have to spew poison but that can easily be taken care of if it flies in the face of the rules of conduct.
In any case, I've checked out Massivlely because someone on this site had indicated that it was "better". Oh, I found some great news but the discussions didn't seem that interesting. At least at the time.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Let's stay on topic guys. This thread is for discussing this article, nothing else. Thanks!
You're not alone: I too am not excited about it. The CG trailers are freaking awesome, but the main problem for me is: it won't be the Old Republic from the Knights of the Old Republic series.
Now, everytime Lucasarts needs to tell more story, they just skip tens of thousands of years in the future or in the past. It's getting to a point where I'd accept parallel realities just to be with my favorite characters and events from the KotOR series or the original movies.
Great article and great comments! I am looking forward to SW:TOR coming out, but I am not jumping up and down with excitement. I am an SWG (preCU/NGE) fan and I am not expecting this to be ANYTHING like that. If I even dared to compare them I would be disappointed. I have not pre-paid, cuz I usually wait 'til after all the hype, watch a few Youtube videos of it, then buy the game and try it out.
Isabelle, I really enjoy your articles!
I'm pretty certain that this is just a comfortable delusion, comfortable because it's an imaginary situation and those can always be right.
The harsh reality though is that SWG was losing subs already, and it was losing them hard when the new MMO's EQ2 and SWTOR launched, proving the point that a lot of MMO gamers like to hop when new appealing MMO's come out. It didn't just lose those subs for a month or 2, 3, nope, more and more SWG players wanted to give EQ2 and WoW a try and what's more, they stayed in those games. That was the real truth: SWG might have had a hard core of fans who preferred sandbox/SWG styled gameplay above anything else, but it also had whole hordes of players who were just looking for a fun MMO, not particularly SWG or sandbox, and when those new MMO's arrived, one a sequel to the legendary EQ and another made by one of the dominant game developers around, they didn't hesitate to jump ship.
So, my guess is that sure, you'll have a sizeable contingent of MMO gamers when a sandbox MMO or hybrid comes out, because let's face it, at the moment hardcore sandbox gamers are practically homeless and they have been that way, without an MMO to truly enjoy and lose themselves in, for years and years now. All those will jump like rabid, starved wolves on a clueless bunny when an AAA sandbox or hybrid MMO will arrive.
However, how it'll be regarding the rest of the MMO playerbase, those millions and millions of MMO gamers who preferred themepark or 'game focused design' MMO's above sandbox or 'world oriented design' MMO's, that remains to be seen. Lessons from the past 6-7 years is that the larger majority prefers MMO's where the design is 'game focused' (where WoW styled themepark MMO's is just one branch) above MMO's where the design is 'world oriented' (sandbox styled MMO's).
Of course, my own stance is that an MMO ideally should have both aspects in full availability and not steer towards one or the other extreme.
Anyway, this is all speculation for the moment in any case. We'll see when the upcoming MMO's arrive how things will be, there'll be more traditional themepark MMO's like SWTOR and TERA, new trends of themepark or 'game focused' MMO's like TSW and GW2, MMOFPS in the form of Firefall and Planetside 2, and even sandbox oriented MMO's like the hybrid Arche Age and (possibly) World of Darkness.
So, time will tell how things will end up when it comes to MMO gaming
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Wow, lots of comments. I consider myself a pretty big star wars fan, but I just can't get over the aspect that this isn't just another themepark MMO, but it's a themepark MMO on rails that is forcing a story on you. I have yet to figure out what the endgame PvP content is going to be. PvE raiding is not fun (for me), so I'm looking for some kind of sandbox PvP content at the end that will keep me coming back again and again. I don't think it is this game, which is apparently all about telling a story. If I want a story, I'll go read a book. I don't mind themepark MMOs if they have a sandbox PvP aspect to it.
As such, this game currently doesn't have me that excited. In fact, I'll probably wait 4-5 months after launch and hear the reviews of the endgame before I sub. I did that with Rift and seems to be the smart decision not to buy that game.
Not only that, but she admits to not getting excited about a game for several years. Sounds like someone might have some gaming burnout. I get the same way with commercials on TV. So tired of them that I actually avoid buying products I see advertised.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Warhammer made by Mythic BEFORE BioWare bought them?
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
BioWare has never bought Mythic.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower