the problem with todays generation of MMO players, is that they don't want to take the time to learn. They want everything to be run and gun or instant gratification, or they want to be part of the in crowd the bandwagoneers. Right now the cool thing is hating ToR and a lot of people are jumping on that bandwagon, just to be part of the in crowd, alot of them are misinformed and just repeat the misinformation of others.
You know what I heard; I heard that TOR is going to suck because one of the dev has three eyes, so the graphics are all screwed up, and one of the dev only has one ear, so when BioWare said PvP, he heard PvG, so he created Players vs Gangsters. I also read something once.
Hm, I am not sure what to make of this. It seems the players were much inexperience in MMOs. So it sure is to be taken with a grain of salt. But this complaint of PVP is something I myself am VERY familiar with in most MMOs. Alas. The fact that some classes have no chance and other classes totally rule. Or how experienced players rule and casual PVPers like me have no chance in hell. That IS an issue with PVP in MMOs per se, not particularly Star Wars TOR.
Even if you disband their opinions, and I can understand why, this WILL be a part of the players opinions. Keep in mind not all are diehard Bioware-story fans like we. So TOR will have to deal with such critique, whether we like that or not.
This is true, but not accurate to the article posted IMO. There will be a big difference between leveling a character from level 1, then trying some PvP vs jumping in at level 20 and having no clue.
You will learn your class through PvE to at least know what skills you have and how they work. You may not have them memorized with contingencies for situations. And may still lose to better or more experienced PvPers. But it won't be because you don't have a clue about your character or it's skills. A casual player will always be at a disadvantage in PvP. You will not know your class inside out with a plan of action for every encounter. But just by playing your class, you can still have some fun and success as a casual. I would know.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them? R.A.Salvatore
Hm, I am not sure what to make of this. It seems the players were much inexperience in MMOs. So it sure is to be taken with a grain of salt. But this complaint of PVP is something I myself am VERY familiar with in most MMOs. Alas. The fact that some classes have no chance and other classes totally rule. Or how experienced players rule and casual PVPers like me have no chance in hell. That IS an issue with PVP in MMOs per se, not particularly Star Wars TOR.
Even if you disband their opinions, and I can understand why, this WILL be a part of the players opinions. Keep in mind not all are diehard Bioware-story fans like we. So TOR will have to deal with such critique, whether we like that or not.
This is true, but not accurate to the article posted IMO. There will be a big difference between leveling a character from level 1, then trying some PvP vs jumping in at level 20 and having no clue.
You will learn your class through PvE to at least know what skills you have and how they work. You may not have them memorized with contingencies for situations. And may still lose to better or more experienced PvPers. But it won't be because you don't have a clue about your character or it's skills. A casual player will always be at a disadvantage in PvP. You will not know your class inside out with a plan of action for every encounter. But just by playing your class, you can still have some fun and success as a casual. I would know.
i think the biggest lesson learned here though, is if you want to pvp.. don't go agent or inquisitor.....
Was that link supposed to be a joke? Three guys who play FPS and think MMOs should play the same? Get real.
When an MMO comes out that plays the same as a fps my interest in MMO's will be rekindled and will be totally interested in it but dont worry I wont hold it against you if your not.
i think the biggest lesson learned here though, is if you want to pvp.. don't go agent or inquisitor.....
Funny thing is reports from beta testers from multiple leak sites say that the Agent is actually one of the more powerful classes in PvP especially the Sniper. Some go as far as to say they are too powerful.
I find it funny how people say TOR is going to draw in people who don't play MMOs and then when people who don't play MMOs play TOR and don't like it they start complaing about how they wouldn't have liked it because they don't play MMOs.
The only non-MMO players SWTOR is going to attract are Star Wars and BioWare fanbois.
Aside from simply having more cutscenes, SWTOR is doing literally NOTHING that other established don't already offer and therefore there is nothing there to draw new people with.
This is verifiably untrue. The dark/light side system and player ships as housing are two things that came off the top of my head and I know of no equivelent in any other MMO.
I find it funny how people say TOR is going to draw in people who don't play MMOs and then when people who don't play MMOs play TOR and don't like it they start complaing about how they wouldn't have liked it because they don't play MMOs.
The only non-MMO players SWTOR is going to attract are Star Wars and BioWare fanbois.
Aside from simply having more cutscenes, SWTOR is doing literally NOTHING that other established don't already offer and therefore there is nothing there to draw new people with.
This is verifiably untrue. The dark/light side system and player ships as housing are two things that came off the top of my head and I know of no equivelent in any other MMO.
Xondar123
You forgot to mention the companion system and that you can use them to slave away at the crafting station of your ship ^_^
Some people will not like this game, in particular some fps players over at Gamefront! This must mean that all players will utterly despise this game! The end is near! Bioware killed your pet! Hate them all!
/sarcasm_off
Seriously, the authors state their bias and appear from their 'review' to not be familiar with mmo controls and gameplay. I did not like driving an automatic over a stick at first since it was unfamiliar and new. Guess what, I eventually grew to like it. There are multiple gameplay sessions from mmo players that rave about this game with a few exceptions. I would not ask a skateboarder who never rollerskates to review a set of inline skates, and I take a group of FPS players review of an mmo with a grain of salt.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
Was that link supposed to be a joke? Three guys who play FPS and think MMOs should play the same? Get real.
When an MMO comes out that plays the same as a fps my interest in MMO's will be rekindled and will be totally interested in it but dont worry I wont hold it against you if your not.
That's called an MMOFPS my friend, SW:TOR is an MMORPG.
I find it funny how people say TOR is going to draw in people who don't play MMOs and then when people who don't play MMOs play TOR and don't like it they start complaing about how they wouldn't have liked it because they don't play MMOs.
The only non-MMO players SWTOR is going to attract are Star Wars and BioWare fanbois.
Aside from simply having more cutscenes, SWTOR is doing literally NOTHING that other established don't already offer and therefore there is nothing there to draw new people with.
You know what I have noticed in my 11 years of playing MMOs? All those MMOs that have tried to do something different have failed, some have shut down altogether while others hangon to life support. It seems that the traditional tried and true method seems to work just fine. If it didn't WoW would have never made it to 12 million subs, EQ wouldn't have never gotten off the ground, Rift would be shutdown by now. Let's look at some games that tried to do some things different, DCU barely anybody play that on the pc, Necron a fps MMO that most people have never heard of, Crimecraft, APB, and global agenda all had to go f2p. TR shutdown, TCOSB another MMO that tried something different dead. If I was investing millions into something I took would go with what works instead of taking a chance on something that has failed time and time again.
I agree with you Gormok. Maybe, just maybe, it's an indication that most gamers don't want twtich combat in their MMO's. Maybe, just maybe, the developers who can't seem to get a clue, should change the style of content, rather than the style of combat. I"m getting tired of developers who espouse themselves to be professionals who behave like they haven't a clue in the world.
Why is it okay for some people on this site to come into this genre and start demanding FPS combat, but if we went into the FPS genre and started demanding turn and or character based RPG style combat, we'd be laughed at and scorned by player and developer alike?
by the looks of things, BW doesnt seem to have a clue about creating a balanced pvp experience. i can sympathize with the authors of the article. this whole thing stinks of the WoW pvp experience. throughout the years, there were always classes and specs that were totally useless in pvp, or extremely UP. it was a game dominated by burst dps and heal-tanking. it seems that TOR is going a similar route, except pvp will probably be dominated by healer + tank combos like in Global Agenda. this is what happens when you design the game around the trinity, rock-paper-scissors balancing and too many classes/abilities
by the looks of things, BW doesnt seem to have a clue about creating a balanced pvp experience. i can sympathize with the authors of the article. this whole thing stinks of the WoW pvp experience. throughout the years, there were always classes and specs that were totally useless in pvp, or extremely UP. it was a game dominated by burst dps and heal-tanking. it seems that TOR is going a similar route, except pvp will probably be dominated by healer + tank combos. this is what happens when you design the game around the trinity, rock-paper-scissors balancing and too many classes/abilities
Thing is, there are also reports about IA's owning on the pvp battlefield, so I guess it's more a case of familiarity and expertise of players with a class.
I agree though, that balancing regardless any MMO, themepark or sandbox, seems to be an ongoing neverending process, there's never 100% equality between all the classes.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
by the looks of things, BW doesnt seem to have a clue about creating a balanced pvp experience. i can sympathize with the authors of the article. this whole thing stinks of the WoW pvp experience. throughout the years, there were always classes and specs that were totally useless in pvp, or extremely UP. it was a game dominated by burst dps and heal-tanking. it seems that TOR is going a similar route, except pvp will probably be dominated by healer + tank combos. this is what happens when you design the game around the trinity, rock-paper-scissors balancing and too many classes/abilities
Thing is, there are also reports about IA's owning on the pvp battlefield, so I guess it's more a case of familiarity and expertise of players with a class.
I agree though, that balancing regardless any MMO, themepark or sandbox, seems to be an ongoing neverending process, there's never 100% equality between all the classes.
I'm a bit worried that the Mythic devs that have joined the team will try to convice Bioware that going with a rock / paper / scissors paradigmn for PvP will be the route to take and I despised that in Warhammer. I would much prefer every class having a reasonable chance against another, like they did in Dark Age of Camelot.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I would much prefer every class having a reasonable chance against another, like they did in Dark Age of Camelot.
this is pretty much how it should be. i hate to bring GW2 in this discussion, but these guys have set a fantastic foundation for PVP balancing. classes should, or even MUST, be balanced around 1v1. if youre running across the field to join your buddies and some dbag jedi-tard keeps intercepting you and slicing you to death, where's the fun in that? one CANT make a class absolutely useless against another class. you have to have the means of defending yourself against every situation.
i am also disappointed with ex-Mythic guys spearheading TOR's pvp. once i heard that, i instantly gave up on the PVP aspect of the game. WAR was filthy.
I don't see too many MMO fans sticking with this game either.
From a "massive multiplayer" perspective, this game will be sub par.
Originally posted by Scambug
Originally posted by GMan3
How exactly? Anyone can make broad empty statements, now it is time to back it up though.
No, now is not the time. I'm under a NDA and if I do get into any detail, my post will get deleted by the mods in a matter of seconds.
Heh..Im on the fence of optimism and concern, but even questionable game-tester input doesn't push me over the side of optimism.
However, I take all input at thsi stage with a gran of salt, knowing after 15 years of mmo gaming that for the most-part, "balance" is an illusion with all the developmental know-how that designers should have with years of exposure on the subjec-tmatter.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I would much prefer every class having a reasonable chance against another, like they did in Dark Age of Camelot.
i am also disappointed with ex-Mythic guys spearheading TOR's pvp. once i heard that, i instantly gave up on the PVP aspect of the game. WAR was filthy.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those the same guys that also designed and developed DAoC?
Besides that, the CC immunity build up thing and the tank being valuable in pvp by being able to shield other classes are pretty nifty things, I understand those were in WAR. That doesn't mean that each class doesn't have a reasonable chance against others. Like said, some players might have sucked while playing IA, while others managed to dispose of 3 other players at the same time by playing smartly and using their class' strengths optimally.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Originally posted by Vorthanion I would much prefer every class having a reasonable chance against another, like they did in Dark Age of Camelot.
i am also disappointed with ex-Mythic guys spearheading TOR's pvp. once i heard that, i instantly gave up on the PVP aspect of the game. WAR was filthy.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those the same guys that also designed and developed DAoC?
i'll quote a poster from the TOR forums. i believe he is right:
"the Mythic that created Warhammer was a different company to the one that created DaoC. Most of the major players in DaoC's development had left before Warhammer. And now you have the remainder of Warhammer's devs working on TOR's PvP. If you honestly believe that Mythic's consistently blundering attempts at class balance throughout the life of Warhammer are a good sign for TOR, that's your opinion. If you expect TOR's PvP to be anything like DaoC's, prepare for disappointment."
the CC immunity tool is really good, but it only takes care of CC, not burst DPS. each class must have: a self-heal, mitigation, some on-demand burst DPS, escape, and a way to close or dictate distance to be effective in pvp. if they do this for each spec, my hat will go off to them. as Colin Johanson mentioned in one of the interviews, in GW2 they strive to create a system in which the player is doing all of the above with each class, except in a different style.
I find it funny how people say TOR is going to draw in people who don't play MMOs and then when people who don't play MMOs play TOR and don't like it they start complaing about how they wouldn't have liked it because they don't play MMOs.
The only non-MMO players SWTOR is going to attract are Star Wars and BioWare fanbois.
Aside from simply having more cutscenes, SWTOR is doing literally NOTHING that other established don't already offer and therefore there is nothing there to draw new people with.
This is verifiably untrue. The dark/light side system and player ships as housing are two things that came off the top of my head and I know of no equivelent in any other MMO.
But, but, if I don't want it in my MMO, and I'm not interested in that feature it doesn't count as something new.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
Originally posted by Vorthanion I would much prefer every class having a reasonable chance against another, like they did in Dark Age of Camelot.
i am also disappointed with ex-Mythic guys spearheading TOR's pvp. once i heard that, i instantly gave up on the PVP aspect of the game. WAR was filthy.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those the same guys that also designed and developed DAoC?
i'll quote a poster from the TOR forums. i believe he is right:
"the Mythic that created Warhammer was a different company to the one that created DaoC. Most of the major players in DaoC's development had left before Warhammer.
And now you have the remainder of Warhammer's devs working on TOR's PvP.
If you honestly believe that Mythic's consistently blundering attempts at class balance throughout the life of Warhammer are a good sign for TOR, that's your opinion.
If you expect TOR's PvP to be anything like DaoC's, prepare for disappointment."
Hogwash, the problem is you can't balance these classes in any crucial way, there will always be weaknesses or strengths one class may have compared to another. Noobs bicth and moan, vets adapt, that's just the way things are. Don't give me some crap about x game has balance, it may have an illusion of balance, however, there is no balance to be had.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
I find it funny how people say TOR is going to draw in people who don't play MMOs and then when people who don't play MMOs play TOR and don't like it they start complaing about how they wouldn't have liked it because they don't play MMOs.
The only non-MMO players SWTOR is going to attract are Star Wars and BioWare fanbois.
Aside from simply having more cutscenes, SWTOR is doing literally NOTHING that other established don't already offer and therefore there is nothing there to draw new people with.
This is verifiably untrue. The dark/light side system and player ships as housing are two things that came off the top of my head and I know of no equivelent in any other MMO.
I'll give you light/dark side system, but SWG had ships as player housing (you could decorate them like a house and invite other's over). STO also has ships as player housing (can't really decorate other than change a few variables), it also has companions in the form of crew member (no story, but some people might think that is better, so you can create your own).
Not saying SWTOR isn't doing anythign new for MMO's, but mostly what they are doing in bring single player style story into an MMO. We can debate if that is a good or a bad thing.
Hogwash, the problem is you can't balance these classes in any crucial way, there will always be weaknesses or strengths one class may have compared to another. Noobs bicth and moan, vets adapt, that's just the way things are. Don't give me some crap about x game has balance, it may have an illusion of balance, however, there is no balance to be had.
hogwash? no, i will not accept this. just because there isnt an MMO that is balanced in PVP doesnt mean there wont ever be one. "vets adapting" is a hilarious term for when you have to invest tears, sweat and blood into a broken class to get supbar results compared to a blantantly overpowered class that can be facerolled by someone who's missing an arm. vets who "adapt" tend to just leave without necessarily raising too much noise. happens in EVE all the time, happened in WoW as well to many highly ranked arena players. when something is broken, it's broken. and when a company refuses to address the problem by tweaking a few numbers, then it is time to go.
Comments
After reading this, All I can say about these three is...
lol.
You know what I heard; I heard that TOR is going to suck because one of the dev has three eyes, so the graphics are all screwed up, and one of the dev only has one ear, so when BioWare said PvP, he heard PvG, so he created Players vs Gangsters. I also read something once.
This is true, but not accurate to the article posted IMO. There will be a big difference between leveling a character from level 1, then trying some PvP vs jumping in at level 20 and having no clue.
You will learn your class through PvE to at least know what skills you have and how they work. You may not have them memorized with contingencies for situations. And may still lose to better or more experienced PvPers. But it won't be because you don't have a clue about your character or it's skills. A casual player will always be at a disadvantage in PvP. You will not know your class inside out with a plan of action for every encounter. But just by playing your class, you can still have some fun and success as a casual. I would know.
How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?
R.A.Salvatore
i think the biggest lesson learned here though, is if you want to pvp.. don't go agent or inquisitor.....
When an MMO comes out that plays the same as a fps my interest in MMO's will be rekindled and will be totally interested in it but dont worry I wont hold it against you if your not.
Funny thing is reports from beta testers from multiple leak sites say that the Agent is actually one of the more powerful classes in PvP especially the Sniper. Some go as far as to say they are too powerful.
This is verifiably untrue. The dark/light side system and player ships as housing are two things that came off the top of my head and I know of no equivelent in any other MMO.
Xondar123
You forgot to mention the companion system and that you can use them to slave away at the crafting station of your ship ^_^
THIS JUST IN <BREAKING NEWS>
Some people will not like this game, in particular some fps players over at Gamefront! This must mean that all players will utterly despise this game! The end is near! Bioware killed your pet! Hate them all!
/sarcasm_off
Seriously, the authors state their bias and appear from their 'review' to not be familiar with mmo controls and gameplay. I did not like driving an automatic over a stick at first since it was unfamiliar and new. Guess what, I eventually grew to like it. There are multiple gameplay sessions from mmo players that rave about this game with a few exceptions. I would not ask a skateboarder who never rollerskates to review a set of inline skates, and I take a group of FPS players review of an mmo with a grain of salt.
Cheers!
MMO Vet since AOL Neverwinter Nights circa 1992. My MMO beat up your MMO. =S
That's called an MMOFPS my friend, SW:TOR is an MMORPG.
Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011
I agree with you Gormok. Maybe, just maybe, it's an indication that most gamers don't want twtich combat in their MMO's. Maybe, just maybe, the developers who can't seem to get a clue, should change the style of content, rather than the style of combat. I"m getting tired of developers who espouse themselves to be professionals who behave like they haven't a clue in the world.
Why is it okay for some people on this site to come into this genre and start demanding FPS combat, but if we went into the FPS genre and started demanding turn and or character based RPG style combat, we'd be laughed at and scorned by player and developer alike?
by the looks of things, BW doesnt seem to have a clue about creating a balanced pvp experience. i can sympathize with the authors of the article. this whole thing stinks of the WoW pvp experience. throughout the years, there were always classes and specs that were totally useless in pvp, or extremely UP. it was a game dominated by burst dps and heal-tanking. it seems that TOR is going a similar route, except pvp will probably be dominated by healer + tank combos like in Global Agenda. this is what happens when you design the game around the trinity, rock-paper-scissors balancing and too many classes/abilities
Thing is, there are also reports about IA's owning on the pvp battlefield, so I guess it's more a case of familiarity and expertise of players with a class.
I agree though, that balancing regardless any MMO, themepark or sandbox, seems to be an ongoing neverending process, there's never 100% equality between all the classes.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I'm a bit worried that the Mythic devs that have joined the team will try to convice Bioware that going with a rock / paper / scissors paradigmn for PvP will be the route to take and I despised that in Warhammer. I would much prefer every class having a reasonable chance against another, like they did in Dark Age of Camelot.
this is pretty much how it should be. i hate to bring GW2 in this discussion, but these guys have set a fantastic foundation for PVP balancing. classes should, or even MUST, be balanced around 1v1. if youre running across the field to join your buddies and some dbag jedi-tard keeps intercepting you and slicing you to death, where's the fun in that? one CANT make a class absolutely useless against another class. you have to have the means of defending yourself against every situation.
i am also disappointed with ex-Mythic guys spearheading TOR's pvp. once i heard that, i instantly gave up on the PVP aspect of the game. WAR was filthy.
Heh..Im on the fence of optimism and concern, but even questionable game-tester input doesn't push me over the side of optimism.
However, I take all input at thsi stage with a gran of salt, knowing after 15 years of mmo gaming that for the most-part, "balance" is an illusion with all the developmental know-how that designers should have with years of exposure on the subjec-tmatter.
From what I understand they are revamping the skill system to be more like WoW, which does not excite me at all. We shall see.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't those the same guys that also designed and developed DAoC?
Besides that, the CC immunity build up thing and the tank being valuable in pvp by being able to shield other classes are pretty nifty things, I understand those were in WAR. That doesn't mean that each class doesn't have a reasonable chance against others. Like said, some players might have sucked while playing IA, while others managed to dispose of 3 other players at the same time by playing smartly and using their class' strengths optimally.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
i'll quote a poster from the TOR forums. i believe he is right:
"the Mythic that created Warhammer was a different company to the one that created DaoC. Most of the major players in DaoC's development had left before Warhammer. And now you have the remainder of Warhammer's devs working on TOR's PvP. If you honestly believe that Mythic's consistently blundering attempts at class balance throughout the life of Warhammer are a good sign for TOR, that's your opinion. If you expect TOR's PvP to be anything like DaoC's, prepare for disappointment."
the CC immunity tool is really good, but it only takes care of CC, not burst DPS. each class must have: a self-heal, mitigation, some on-demand burst DPS, escape, and a way to close or dictate distance to be effective in pvp. if they do this for each spec, my hat will go off to them. as Colin Johanson mentioned in one of the interviews, in GW2 they strive to create a system in which the player is doing all of the above with each class, except in a different style.
But, but, if I don't want it in my MMO, and I'm not interested in that feature it doesn't count as something new.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
Hogwash, the problem is you can't balance these classes in any crucial way, there will always be weaknesses or strengths one class may have compared to another. Noobs bicth and moan, vets adapt, that's just the way things are. Don't give me some crap about x game has balance, it may have an illusion of balance, however, there is no balance to be had.
To SB fans, please stop making our demographic look bad.Stop invading threads that have nothing to do with sandboxes.
SW:TOR Graphics Evolution and Comparison
SW:TOR Compare MMO Quests, Combat and More...
I'll give you light/dark side system, but SWG had ships as player housing (you could decorate them like a house and invite other's over). STO also has ships as player housing (can't really decorate other than change a few variables), it also has companions in the form of crew member (no story, but some people might think that is better, so you can create your own).
Not saying SWTOR isn't doing anythign new for MMO's, but mostly what they are doing in bring single player style story into an MMO. We can debate if that is a good or a bad thing.
Gamefront aren't MMORPG people. It doesn't surprise me they're biased towards the PvP.
I heard nothing but great things about PvP in ToR until now and it's by gamefront so all in all it doesn't matter.
hogwash? no, i will not accept this. just because there isnt an MMO that is balanced in PVP doesnt mean there wont ever be one. "vets adapting" is a hilarious term for when you have to invest tears, sweat and blood into a broken class to get supbar results compared to a blantantly overpowered class that can be facerolled by someone who's missing an arm. vets who "adapt" tend to just leave without necessarily raising too much noise. happens in EVE all the time, happened in WoW as well to many highly ranked arena players. when something is broken, it's broken. and when a company refuses to address the problem by tweaking a few numbers, then it is time to go.