Originally posted by WizardryIf you want to be afraid of your own shadow and have the entire game lay down at your feet,you need to quit gaming and definitely stay away from any sports or anything competitive.I guess that would leave watching TV,maybe play in the garden or wash the dishes,idk,something with no risk.
Washing the dishes has its fair share of risks too!
You might accidentally swallow some detergent or break a glass and slit an artery!
NERF DISH WASHING!!!1
We need to get you together with Clive Barker to write children's books about household chores.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Everquest had pretty hard death penalties but I played it as my first MMORPG. I am not sure whether I would play it now if it was my first MMORPG. I cannot answer that question in the affirmative with absolute certainty.
I know my best memories were in that game but also the very worst. Losing everything I worked for because it decayed among others. I am not so sure if I could choose to play a game with a death penalty that was more forgiving would not be my cup of tea now. The fact was we were very close as a community but we were also not boasting a very large population and therefore the number of people who behaved badly was proportionately less. The sole factor that often many people point to as the general decline in responsibility , accountability and decency in this genre has been harsh consequences. I am just thinking that harsh penalties do not make better people. They just do not manifest themselves in smaller communities. The number does not decrease because of the penalty. The number of people in a given society who are sociopaths or undesirable will remain the same they just learn to hide their behaviour in a smaller community. We are in essence facing the current problems because MMORPG have become mainstream and thus attracted many, many more players compared to when we played EVerquest.
I am quite certain though that harsh death penalties foster dependence and whether that dependence is false in its closeness based on fear will nevertheless exhibit community and many desirable behaviour patterns. However this is currently only manageable in small games that do not have very large populations. In effect you are controlling undesirable characters from emerging by making them rely on each other. They do not make better people. We will always be what we are deep inside and how we behave in a community that does not depend on fear ultimately creates the real friends and companions. Finding companions in games where the community is bad is like finding gold in a pile of dirt.
I know it does not answer the question but I do not think making people band together out of fear is necessarily the building blocks for a good community although it has worked since the dawn of time. May be human beings have to be forced to be in a community if their baser instincts seem to to be of a less than honourable nature.
The 'rush' comes from the risk vs reward factor. Unless you're ganking lowbies or some other silliness the outcome of any given fight (assuming similar levels) isn't really ...known in advance. You run the risk of your gamble (starting the fight) wont pay off (you die). That 's where the rush comes from. It cannot be self-imposed.
It also makes you consider your actions more carefully (in making decisons on whom to attack, etc.) and making PvP more exciting in genral.
That said, it's not everyone's cup of tea. If that's not your thing, then it'd probably be best to avoid titles with harsh death penalties.
Oh, the rush can be self-imposed. The problem is that very few people are willing to actually follow a self imposed honor system. These are the people who will destroy their gear upon death even if they could 'cheat' their way out of it. For them the rush will be in full effect since they are really risking their items no matter who destroys them in the end.
However, most people just do not have the willpower to follow their principles that seriously.
I am in favor of harsh death penalties (i grew up in eq1 and ffxi which had exp loss and i play eve)
I don't think there is any rush to having one, but i do think there is excitement when you live/succeed.
also, and more importantly, i think that having penalties when the character dies makes it so people learn to play their characters better (because, they dont want their group to die ecause of them, because if that happens word will get out and there goes that character's chances of having a group again)
also, where PVP is concerned, having penalties associated with dying in pvp means that the whiny (you know what game) battleground/arena dicks will not participate (believe me, eve has its dicks, but they are strictly a higher class of dicks)
although, i think the OP knows these things and was just trying to start something or get his post spotlighted :P
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I've disliked corpse runs and extreme item decay since the start of MMO's with UO. I don't want death to be meaningless, but I also don't want to feel it's impact 30 minutes later. I'm not a big fan of wasting time.
For the most part it depends on what sort of death penalty you are talking about. If you are talking about equipment destruction/looting then it's what makes and breaks a true player driven economy. Without item destruction crafting in MMO's is for the most part rather pointless due to the fact that materials are always worth much more than any item crafted from them, and why make something drops are better. If you are talking about XP losses then I don't particularly care for that one myself but generally it is for the "rush" things tend to get very exiting when you know that defeat actually costs you something.
after being presented with this debate numerous times I've come to the understanding for me personally that there are really only two harsh death penalties I am totally against those are perma death (though I've never played a game with it) and the one I have encountered and see as a real problem for my gaming needs is xp debt.
XP debt from my experience with it is just an extremely cheap tactic used by devs mostly to keep players from reaching level cap and playing longer much more than it is used as an incentive to teach players to play the game better.
I used to play COH from launch and they had xp debt and the truth atleast in my own case is that I never learned how to be a better player simply because of xp debt, I was more often than not forced to decide if I wanted to engage in whatever event caused my death in the first place as at the mid levels one or two deaths added days to weeks to the playtime needed to advance to the next level up.
The problem I find is there are too many variables for that to simply be the solution to making a player better. At times I played a controller in a lousy group who couldn't keep the baddies off of me and without the high health of a scrapper or tank there wasn't much I could do to stop myself from dying so what do you do then? Abandon the group?
Many games run really smooth but glitches,lag and bugs will happen in most any mmorpg so what happens when that is a factor in your death. How about when something your pc is doing that has nothing to do with either the server lag or game itself causes your death such as programs that require your immediate attention and then collapse the game to task bar?
Ultimately what xp debt did was ensure that I didn't stay in COH until I hit level cap and that is the only mmo I can say I thoroughly enjoyed that I didn't stay in til level cap.
I remember making this awesome controller sort of like a native american storm and she was my favorite character in that game by the time I quit COH the first time she was more than a level behind in xp debt and this wasn't just from a single play session of bad ideas it was from constantly being faced with all the above mentioned problems over and over again without ever really having a chance to clear all debt in the first place.
As far as the actual topic I'm not an advocate of harsher death penalties so it's not for me to say but I certainly agree with those guys that there needs to be something.
I remember the early days of STO constantly engaging in scenarios that were a bit too tough for the level I and others would be at but who cares you only blow up and respawn a few clicks out and the enemy wouldn't even get a chance to refill it's health it certainly had a negative effect on how I viewed that game.
Originally posted by MMOExposed You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I think (and this is my opinion) that the people who want harsh death penalties in games don't want it for themselves, they want it for other people. They want other people to be punished for 'poor skills'. I think they want to punish people for 'poor skills' so that people with 'poor skills' leave the games that they want to play.
Developers would rather have more people playing a game. Hence the drive away from the harsher death penalties and the harsher game play in general.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
The majority of people play games to have fun. Period. Not to simulate reality, not to "become better players" (whatever that means), and certanly not to adhere to a particular "play style". If the MMO community really did want harsher death penalties, developers would be releasing games to meet this demand. That few (if any) "modern" MMOs are being released with harsh death penalties, speaks volumes...
News Flash:
The majority of people eat food to have life. Period. Not to stimulate tastebuds, not to "become food connoisseurs" (whatever that means), and certainly not to adhere to a particular "dining style". If the entire world really did want quality food and fine dining, business men would be building fancy restaurants to meet this demand. That few (if any) "modern" Fast Food Restaurants are being released with quality food and dining, speaks volumes...
Parroting McDonalds to MMORPG analogies doesn't make anyone correct and make you looking like you don't have an original opinion on the matter. The person's point does stand.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Parroting McDonalds to MMORPG analogies doesn't make anyone correct and make you looking like you don't have an original opinion on the matter. The person's point does stand.
Point and case.
Yet another proof that all people want nothing more than easy fast food delivered straight into their monitor in the quickest time allowed, in the most convenient (lazy) way possible! Let me guess...you eat fast food A LOT! Roflmao!
Parroting McDonalds to MMORPG analogies doesn't make anyone correct and make you looking like you don't have an original opinion on the matter. The person's point does stand.
No its the sad true since Blizzard released their cartoony game and companies like Soe EA took over former great studios, introducing the FPS crowd into our genre, which is a shame.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Parroting McDonalds to MMORPG analogies doesn't make anyone correct and make you looking like you don't have an original opinion on the matter. The person's point does stand.
No its the sad true since Blizzard released their cartoony game and companies like Soe EA took over former great studios, introducing the FPS crowd into our genre, which is a shame.
This is more true than you think. Simplistic games with no repercussions for bad decisions (that a player makes in a game) are becoming a standard in MMOs. It's succesful because of basic psychology:
‘In the 1950s scientists discovered that rats which had been trained to feed themselves by pressing a lever, would press it obsessively if the food was delivered randomly.
‘People have discovered that this works on humans as well. If you give people a lever or a button to press and give them random rewards, they will press it all the time’.
Sound familiar? That's your standard themepark MMO these days. Might as well rename them to 'SlotmachineMMO'.
Originally posted by DerWotan Originally posted by waynejr2 Parroting McDonalds to MMORPG analogies doesn't make anyone correct and make you looking like you don't have an original opinion on the matter. The person's point does stand.
No its the sad true since Blizzard released their cartoony game and companies like Soe EA took over former great studios, introducing the FPS crowd into our genre, which is a shame.
Companies do not have magic mind control buttons, forcing people to like what they like. What they do have are lots of people who do market surveys and other market research to find out what people are willing to buy.
Harsh death penalties weren't marginalized by Blizzard, they were marginalized by the players themselves. Those are the people who are part of the "our" label you're using.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's a game. I don't want "harsh" anything. Okay, it's bad enough that I failed on my task, got sent back to my starting town, and didn't get the carrot that I was chasing... losing an hours worth of XP just adds injury to insult (pun intentional).
I don't mind taking responsibility for my own actions or failures. However, I don't think "punishing" the playerbase is appropriate.
Maybe there is an appropriate time to become forceful with players....
How about PERMA-DEATH for asshats who spam trade chat with TOS violations?
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
I do inflict harsher death penalties on myself in many games I play. To me, it's like penalties in football. It encourages players to play smarter and with more discipline. I don't care if other players do not like harsh death penalties, though I do believe that harsh death penalties in online games can help foster better communities.
I got a honest question, just how do harsh death penaties foster better communties? Could you please elaborate.
There are several ways, but they are reliant on the other mechanics and circumstances of the game, of course. These are also my opinion. I have no hard facts to back them up other than my own experience.
1. It encourages players to play better. A lot of conflict and drama is due to players who don't give a shit and make silly mistakes that get other players killed. In general, if players are playing better, there will be less mistakes. By contrast, if there are no consequences, it really doesn't matter how many times or how bad you mess up. Ironically players tend to get more upset when someone screws up in games wtih light death penalties than in games with harsh consequences.
2. It encourages players to help each other, instead of pointing fingers. When you die and it is difficult to get back to where you were before you died (long corpse run or XP loss), players are generally more sympathetic toward one another. Someone helped me when I died, now I am going to help you, to return the favor. By contrast, players in games with light death penalties might see a player asking for help and think that helping them would be a waste of time since nothing is lost if they do not help them.
3. It encourages communication. When there are harsh death penalties, players will be asking for help more often. Critisism is often not as harsh and more readily available. It is also often more appreciated. By contrast, if there are light death penalties, players are expected to rely on themselves and ridiculed when unable to do so.
Originally posted by Goatgod76 Originally posted by Palebane
Originally posted by erictlewis
Originally posted by Palebane
I do inflict harsher death penalties on myself in many games I play. To me, it's like penalties in football. It encourages players to play smarter and with more discipline. I don't care if other players do not like harsh death penalties, though I do believe that harsh death penalties in online games can help foster better communities.
I got a honest question, just how do harsh death penaties foster better communties? Could you please elaborate. There are several ways, but they are reliant on the other mechanics and circumstances of the game, of course. These are also my opinion. I have no hard facts to back them up other than my own experience. 1. It encourages players to play better. A lot of conflict and drama is due to players who don't give a shit and make silly mistakes that get other players killed. In general, if players are playing better, there will be less mistakes. By contrast, if there are no consequences, it really doesn't matter how many times or how bad you mess up. Ironically players tend to get more upset when someone screws up in games wtih light death penalties than in games with harsh consequences. 2. It encourages players to help each other, instead of pointing fingers. When you die and it is difficult to get back to where you were before you died (long corpse run or XP loss), players are generally more sympathetic toward one another. Someone helped me when I died, now I am going to help you, to return the favor. By contrast, players in games with light death penalties might see a player asking for help and think that helping them would be a waste of time since nothing is lost if they do not help them. 3. It encourages communication. When there are harsh death penalties, players will be asking for help more often. Critisism is often not as harsh and more readily available. It is also often more appreciated. By contrast, if there are light death penalties, players are expected to rely on themselves and ridiculed when unable to do so. 100% agree.
All three things listed can be done without a harsh death penalty. It doesn't do any of those things if a player leaves the game or doesn't play it in the first place.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Proof you never played one. Hell back in the real MMORPG days we did take risks we died a lot, got better and got nice rewards such as AA, experience and if lucky nice gear for exploring a deep dangerous dungeon, instead of running our own instance over and over again, feeling isolated from the world.
If people can't deal with a stiff death penalty yes its better they quit and join another game/genre leaving those who really want to play with others and communicate via chat alone = healthier more friendly community.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Originally posted by DerWotan Originally posted by LisXia
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by MMOExposed You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place? In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Proof you never played one. Hell back in the real MMORPG days we did take risks we died a lot, got better and got nice rewards such as AA, experience and if lucky nice gear for exploring a deep dangerous dungeon, instead of running our own instance over and over again, feeling isolated from the world.
If people can't deal with a stiff death penalty yes its better they quit and join another game/genre leaving those who really want to play with others and communicate via chat alone = healthier more friendly community.
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
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Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
We do play other games. What you don't understand is by and large it is not us complaining about the death systems, most of the dp topics here are about why we need it, they are not started by the light dp proponents. We simple don't play that game because we don't find it fun. The developers are catering to us - they are going after us, we are not going to them.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Originally posted by DerWotan Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by DerWotan
Originally posted by LisXia
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by MMOExposed You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
.... ..... .....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
Because it is not only about the rush of avoiding your own death but the giggle factor of what they other guy will now suffer.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Well at first what is harsh for you? Is ist xp lost & corpse run or full loot?
I do agree though the game has to be tailored around the penalty. WoW as an example never had a real death penalty "ghost mode" and not losing xp is not what I call a penalty hell some used it for traveling purpose.
Don't overestimate the market research people, those guys are using the official forums and stuff like Facebook for their work and if the investors don't like it companies will still do the stupid catering to everyone which will never work.
What really pisses me off is carebears coming into games with harsher death penalties calling for dumb down/easymode instead of just leaving the game and play something tailored for them.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Originally posted by DerWotan Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by DerWotan
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by DerWotan
Originally posted by LisXia
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by MMOExposed You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Well at first what is harsh for you? Is ist xp lost & corpse run or full loot? I do agree though the game has to be tailored around the penalty. WoW as an example never had a real death penalty "ghost mode" and not losing xp is not what I call a penalty hell some used it for traveling purpose. Don't overestimate the market research people, those guys are using the official forums and stuff like Facebook for their work and if the investors don't like it companies will still do the stupid catering to everyone which will never work. What really pisses me off is carebears coming into games with harsher death penalties calling for dumb down/easymode instead of just leaving the game and play something tailored for them.
I put harsh in quotes because the harshness of the penalties is largely subjective. It depends on what the players of a game consider 'harsh'. However, so long as the death mechanic provides some sort of cost, it is serving the purpose it was designed for. Telling players to not die.
Market research people can be wrong, or stupid. Same thing applies to developers. It's not likely that the entire gaming industry is wrong or stupid though. When the entire industry moves away from a particular thing, there's probably a good reason. In this case, it's the number of people you attract to your game. 'Harsh' death penalties attract fewer players and are generally not necessary for the game's mechanics.
And I agree about people getting in games and complaining about what a game is. Don't play Mortal Online and whine because some guy killed you and took all your stuff. That's your official welcome to the game. The same thing applies to WoW. Don't play WoW and then complain because people use the death mechanic to travel. It's part of the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I think (and this is my opinion) that the people who want harsh death penalties in games don't want it for themselves, they want it for other people. They want other people to be punished for 'poor skills'. I think they want to punish people for 'poor skills' so that people with 'poor skills' leave the games that they want to play.
Developers would rather have more people playing a game. Hence the drive away from the harsher death penalties and the harsher game play in general.
Thats what I been saying...
they want it forced on others. If it was optional feature to have a harsher DP, they still would not accept that, because its not being forced on others.
its all about others feeling pain, not about them. I was told elsewhere by this pro-HDP that they dont want it forced on others, simply to get this "Rush" they speak of.
I replied, "why not self inflict it than? Taking WoW for example, why not delete a epic item in your gear slot after every 3 deaths? Or give away 30% of the Gold each time you die?"
I got the same reply I see in this thread. "NO NO NO I Dont want HDP if it doesnt effect others!!!!"
Well didnt you just say you didnt want it forced on others, you simply want that "Rush" you feel? Kinda contradicting
Comments
We need to get you together with Clive Barker to write children's books about household chores.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Everquest had pretty hard death penalties but I played it as my first MMORPG. I am not sure whether I would play it now if it was my first MMORPG. I cannot answer that question in the affirmative with absolute certainty.
I know my best memories were in that game but also the very worst. Losing everything I worked for because it decayed among others. I am not so sure if I could choose to play a game with a death penalty that was more forgiving would not be my cup of tea now. The fact was we were very close as a community but we were also not boasting a very large population and therefore the number of people who behaved badly was proportionately less. The sole factor that often many people point to as the general decline in responsibility , accountability and decency in this genre has been harsh consequences. I am just thinking that harsh penalties do not make better people. They just do not manifest themselves in smaller communities. The number does not decrease because of the penalty. The number of people in a given society who are sociopaths or undesirable will remain the same they just learn to hide their behaviour in a smaller community. We are in essence facing the current problems because MMORPG have become mainstream and thus attracted many, many more players compared to when we played EVerquest.
I am quite certain though that harsh death penalties foster dependence and whether that dependence is false in its closeness based on fear will nevertheless exhibit community and many desirable behaviour patterns. However this is currently only manageable in small games that do not have very large populations. In effect you are controlling undesirable characters from emerging by making them rely on each other. They do not make better people. We will always be what we are deep inside and how we behave in a community that does not depend on fear ultimately creates the real friends and companions. Finding companions in games where the community is bad is like finding gold in a pile of dirt.
I know it does not answer the question but I do not think making people band together out of fear is necessarily the building blocks for a good community although it has worked since the dawn of time. May be human beings have to be forced to be in a community if their baser instincts seem to to be of a less than honourable nature.
Oh, the rush can be self-imposed. The problem is that very few people are willing to actually follow a self imposed honor system. These are the people who will destroy their gear upon death even if they could 'cheat' their way out of it. For them the rush will be in full effect since they are really risking their items no matter who destroys them in the end.
However, most people just do not have the willpower to follow their principles that seriously.
I am in favor of harsh death penalties (i grew up in eq1 and ffxi which had exp loss and i play eve)
I don't think there is any rush to having one, but i do think there is excitement when you live/succeed.
also, and more importantly, i think that having penalties when the character dies makes it so people learn to play their characters better (because, they dont want their group to die ecause of them, because if that happens word will get out and there goes that character's chances of having a group again)
also, where PVP is concerned, having penalties associated with dying in pvp means that the whiny (you know what game) battleground/arena dicks will not participate (believe me, eve has its dicks, but they are strictly a higher class of dicks)
although, i think the OP knows these things and was just trying to start something or get his post spotlighted :P
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
I've disliked corpse runs and extreme item decay since the start of MMO's with UO. I don't want death to be meaningless, but I also don't want to feel it's impact 30 minutes later. I'm not a big fan of wasting time.
after being presented with this debate numerous times I've come to the understanding for me personally that there are really only two harsh death penalties I am totally against those are perma death (though I've never played a game with it) and the one I have encountered and see as a real problem for my gaming needs is xp debt.
XP debt from my experience with it is just an extremely cheap tactic used by devs mostly to keep players from reaching level cap and playing longer much more than it is used as an incentive to teach players to play the game better.
I used to play COH from launch and they had xp debt and the truth atleast in my own case is that I never learned how to be a better player simply because of xp debt, I was more often than not forced to decide if I wanted to engage in whatever event caused my death in the first place as at the mid levels one or two deaths added days to weeks to the playtime needed to advance to the next level up.
The problem I find is there are too many variables for that to simply be the solution to making a player better. At times I played a controller in a lousy group who couldn't keep the baddies off of me and without the high health of a scrapper or tank there wasn't much I could do to stop myself from dying so what do you do then? Abandon the group?
Many games run really smooth but glitches,lag and bugs will happen in most any mmorpg so what happens when that is a factor in your death. How about when something your pc is doing that has nothing to do with either the server lag or game itself causes your death such as programs that require your immediate attention and then collapse the game to task bar?
Ultimately what xp debt did was ensure that I didn't stay in COH until I hit level cap and that is the only mmo I can say I thoroughly enjoyed that I didn't stay in til level cap.
I remember making this awesome controller sort of like a native american storm and she was my favorite character in that game by the time I quit COH the first time she was more than a level behind in xp debt and this wasn't just from a single play session of bad ideas it was from constantly being faced with all the above mentioned problems over and over again without ever really having a chance to clear all debt in the first place.
As far as the actual topic I'm not an advocate of harsher death penalties so it's not for me to say but I certainly agree with those guys that there needs to be something.
I remember the early days of STO constantly engaging in scenarios that were a bit too tough for the level I and others would be at but who cares you only blow up and respawn a few clicks out and the enemy wouldn't even get a chance to refill it's health it certainly had a negative effect on how I viewed that game.
I think (and this is my opinion) that the people who want harsh death penalties in games don't want it for themselves, they want it for other people. They want other people to be punished for 'poor skills'. I think they want to punish people for 'poor skills' so that people with 'poor skills' leave the games that they want to play.
Developers would rather have more people playing a game. Hence the drive away from the harsher death penalties and the harsher game play in general.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
News Flash:
The majority of people eat food to have life. Period. Not to stimulate tastebuds, not to "become food connoisseurs" (whatever that means), and certainly not to adhere to a particular "dining style". If the entire world really did want quality food and fine dining, business men would be building fancy restaurants to meet this demand. That few (if any) "modern" Fast Food Restaurants are being released with quality food and dining, speaks volumes...
Parroting McDonalds to MMORPG analogies doesn't make anyone correct and make you looking like you don't have an original opinion on the matter. The person's point does stand.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Point and case.
Yet another proof that all people want nothing more than easy fast food delivered straight into their monitor in the quickest time allowed, in the most convenient (lazy) way possible! Let me guess...you eat fast food A LOT! Roflmao!
Thanks for backing up my point
No its the sad true since Blizzard released their cartoony game and companies like Soe EA took over former great studios, introducing the FPS crowd into our genre, which is a shame.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
This is more true than you think. Simplistic games with no repercussions for bad decisions (that a player makes in a game) are becoming a standard in MMOs. It's succesful because of basic psychology:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1335924/Computer-games-addictive-use-psychological-ploys-tested-lab-rats.html
‘In the 1950s scientists discovered that rats which had been trained to feed themselves by pressing a lever, would press it obsessively if the food was delivered randomly.
‘People have discovered that this works on humans as well. If you give people a lever or a button to press and give them random rewards, they will press it all the time’.
Sound familiar? That's your standard themepark MMO these days. Might as well rename them to 'SlotmachineMMO'.
No its the sad true since Blizzard released their cartoony game and companies like Soe EA took over former great studios, introducing the FPS crowd into our genre, which is a shame.
Companies do not have magic mind control buttons, forcing people to like what they like. What they do have are lots of people who do market surveys and other market research to find out what people are willing to buy.
Harsh death penalties weren't marginalized by Blizzard, they were marginalized by the players themselves. Those are the people who are part of the "our" label you're using.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I think the keyword here is "harsh".
It's a game. I don't want "harsh" anything. Okay, it's bad enough that I failed on my task, got sent back to my starting town, and didn't get the carrot that I was chasing... losing an hours worth of XP just adds injury to insult (pun intentional).
I don't mind taking responsibility for my own actions or failures. However, I don't think "punishing" the playerbase is appropriate.
Maybe there is an appropriate time to become forceful with players....
How about PERMA-DEATH for asshats who spam trade chat with TOS violations?
100% agree.
There are several ways, but they are reliant on the other mechanics and circumstances of the game, of course. These are also my opinion. I have no hard facts to back them up other than my own experience.
1. It encourages players to play better. A lot of conflict and drama is due to players who don't give a shit and make silly mistakes that get other players killed. In general, if players are playing better, there will be less mistakes. By contrast, if there are no consequences, it really doesn't matter how many times or how bad you mess up. Ironically players tend to get more upset when someone screws up in games wtih light death penalties than in games with harsh consequences.
2. It encourages players to help each other, instead of pointing fingers. When you die and it is difficult to get back to where you were before you died (long corpse run or XP loss), players are generally more sympathetic toward one another. Someone helped me when I died, now I am going to help you, to return the favor. By contrast, players in games with light death penalties might see a player asking for help and think that helping them would be a waste of time since nothing is lost if they do not help them.
3. It encourages communication. When there are harsh death penalties, players will be asking for help more often. Critisism is often not as harsh and more readily available. It is also often more appreciated. By contrast, if there are light death penalties, players are expected to rely on themselves and ridiculed when unable to do so.
100% agree.
All three things listed can be done without a harsh death penalty. It doesn't do any of those things if a player leaves the game or doesn't play it in the first place.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Proof you never played one. Hell back in the real MMORPG days we did take risks we died a lot, got better and got nice rewards such as AA, experience and if lucky nice gear for exploring a deep dangerous dungeon, instead of running our own instance over and over again, feeling isolated from the world.
If people can't deal with a stiff death penalty yes its better they quit and join another game/genre leaving those who really want to play with others and communicate via chat alone = healthier more friendly community.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
I've said this a million times, but since you're asking... I am pro harsh death penalty.. Not because I want one.. Because I want it to matter if you live or die. In a game with a penalty, people actually try to fight and stay alive, where in a game with no penalty... They just stand there and let you kill them. If you have nothing to loose.. What's the fun of fighting in the first place?
In a game with harsh penalty, people will not engage in anything unless they feel very safe, and they bank most of the gear and stuffs. Which means, it discourages fun, exploration, anything.
Proof you never played one. Hell back in the real MMORPG days we did take risks we died a lot, got better and got nice rewards such as AA, experience and if lucky nice gear for exploring a deep dangerous dungeon, instead of running our own instance over and over again, feeling isolated from the world.
If people can't deal with a stiff death penalty yes its better they quit and join another game/genre leaving those who really want to play with others and communicate via chat alone = healthier more friendly community.
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
We do play other games. What you don't understand is by and large it is not us complaining about the death systems, most of the dp topics here are about why we need it, they are not started by the light dp proponents. We simple don't play that game because we don't find it fun. The developers are catering to us - they are going after us, we are not going to them.
Venge
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Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Because it is not only about the rush of avoiding your own death but the giggle factor of what they other guy will now suffer.
All die, so die well.
Well at first what is harsh for you? Is ist xp lost & corpse run or full loot?
I do agree though the game has to be tailored around the penalty. WoW as an example never had a real death penalty "ghost mode" and not losing xp is not what I call a penalty hell some used it for traveling purpose.
Don't overestimate the market research people, those guys are using the official forums and stuff like Facebook for their work and if the investors don't like it companies will still do the stupid catering to everyone which will never work.
What really pisses me off is carebears coming into games with harsher death penalties calling for dumb down/easymode instead of just leaving the game and play something tailored for them.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
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Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Well at first what is harsh for you? Is ist xp lost & corpse run or full loot?
I do agree though the game has to be tailored around the penalty. WoW as an example never had a real death penalty "ghost mode" and not losing xp is not what I call a penalty hell some used it for traveling purpose.
Don't overestimate the market research people, those guys are using the official forums and stuff like Facebook for their work and if the investors don't like it companies will still do the stupid catering to everyone which will never work.
What really pisses me off is carebears coming into games with harsher death penalties calling for dumb down/easymode instead of just leaving the game and play something tailored for them.
I put harsh in quotes because the harshness of the penalties is largely subjective. It depends on what the players of a game consider 'harsh'. However, so long as the death mechanic provides some sort of cost, it is serving the purpose it was designed for. Telling players to not die.
Market research people can be wrong, or stupid. Same thing applies to developers. It's not likely that the entire gaming industry is wrong or stupid though. When the entire industry moves away from a particular thing, there's probably a good reason. In this case, it's the number of people you attract to your game. 'Harsh' death penalties attract fewer players and are generally not necessary for the game's mechanics.
And I agree about people getting in games and complaining about what a game is. Don't play Mortal Online and whine because some guy killed you and took all your stuff. That's your official welcome to the game. The same thing applies to WoW. Don't play WoW and then complain because people use the death mechanic to travel. It's part of the game.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Thats what I been saying...
they want it forced on others. If it was optional feature to have a harsher DP, they still would not accept that, because its not being forced on others.
its all about others feeling pain, not about them. I was told elsewhere by this pro-HDP that they dont want it forced on others, simply to get this "Rush" they speak of.
I replied, "why not self inflict it than? Taking WoW for example, why not delete a epic item in your gear slot after every 3 deaths? Or give away 30% of the Gold each time you die?"
I got the same reply I see in this thread. "NO NO NO I Dont want HDP if it doesnt effect others!!!!"
Well didnt you just say you didnt want it forced on others, you simply want that "Rush" you feel? Kinda contradicting
Philosophy of MMO Game Design