You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Just a different MMO player culture than when MMO's started and the playerbase then. Players toughed through things ( Meanign long epic quests, death penatlites that included xp loss and de-leveling possibly, naked corpse runs, etc.) and that in itself when accomplished was rewarding. Effort brought reward...now it is just the opposite. Players want reward without effort, and can't fathom harsh death penalties (Not perma-death. however). Or that adrenaline rush of those risks you knew existed for what you were attempting and the possible consequences. It made you stop and THINK, and plan your actions carefully instead of simply leroying in because..eh, what difference does it make if you die. You can just spawn again 10 feet away with full hp's/mana and try again...no biggie. Personally...I see less fun in the latter. It's boring, mindless, and requires no strategy. It has NOTHING to do with punishing poor players...nice try though. Most PvPers thrive on poor players to pad their stats or simply to grief all day to thrill themselves.
Anyways, THAT is why you don't see companies or dev's developing many games with death penalties, or any other real challenge anymore. They know the majority (Newer generation of players mainly) want mindless zerg fun (Make MMO's more like console games, which is what they aren't suppose to be...hence, a different genre.)...so that is all they focus on. Whining would ensue or low server populations if they tried it..so why bother. There are plenty of players that would love to see death penalties, etc. But just not enough to sway the suits to risk getting less money for yatchs and vacations when the majority are so vocal. And btw...selfish if you ask me. Because there are TONS of options for MMO's without harsh death penalties, etc. But thsoe that want it, can't seem to have even one or voice wanting one without the majority raising hell about it and say it's being forced on them. Please. (And yes, I am aware of EVE...played it. And not talking PvP MMO's either)
But...that's my personal opinion I suppose, and no matter what I say, or anyone else says in this thread...no one will see it eye to eye, so why bother the argument. As I said...it's a different player mindset now from the old school days.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
I think (and this is my opinion) that the people who want harsh death penalties in games don't want it for themselves, they want it for other people. They want other people to be punished for 'poor skills'. I think they want to punish people for 'poor skills' so that people with 'poor skills' leave the games that they want to play.
Developers would rather have more people playing a game. Hence the drive away from the harsher death penalties and the harsher game play in general.
Thats what I been saying...
they want it forced on others. If it was optional feature to have a harsher DP, they still would not accept that, because its not being forced on others.
its all about others feeling pain, not about them. I was told elsewhere by this pro-HDP that they dont want it forced on others, simply to get this "Rush" they speak of.
I replied, "why not self inflict it than? Taking WoW for example, why not delete a epic item in your gear slot after every 3 deaths? Or give away 30% of the Gold each time you die?"
I got the same reply I see in this thread. "NO NO NO I Dont want HDP if it doesnt effect others!!!!"
Well didnt you just say you didnt want it forced on others, you simply want that "Rush" you feel? Kinda contradicting
Wow , you litterally ignored every single explanation given in the whole topic just to pick one reply from someone who doesn't like the concept and say "yah you're totally right!".
If you won't read the responses don't ask questions, this feels like cheap trolling.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
Originally posted by Goatgod76 Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by DerWotan
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by DerWotan
Originally posted by LisXia
Originally posted by Praetalus
Originally posted by MMOExposed You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Just a different MMO player culture than when they started. Players toughed through things and that in itself when accomplished was rewarding. Effort brought reward...now it is just the opposite. Players want reward without effort, and can't fathom harsh death penalties (Not perma-death. But de-level, etc.), xp loss. Or that adrenaline rush of those risks you knew existed for what you were attempting and the possible consequences. It made you stop and THINK, and plan your actions carefully instead of simply leroying in because..eh, what difference does it make if you die. You can just spawn again 10 feet away with full hp's/mana and try again...no biggie. Personally...I see less fun in the latter. It's boring, mindless, and requires no strategy. It has NOTHING to do with punishing poor players...nice try though. Most PvPers thrive on poor players to pad their stats or simply to grief all day to thrill themselves. Anyways, THAT is why you don't see companies or dev's developing many games with death penalties, or any other real challenge anymore. They know the majority (Newer generation of players mainly) want mindless zerg fun (Make MMO's more like console games, which is what they aren't suppose to be...hence, a different genre.)...so that is all they focus on. Whining would ensue or low server populations if they tried it..so why bother. But...that's my personal opinion I suppose, and no matter what I say, or anyone else says in this thread...no one will see it eye to eye, so why bother the argument. As I said...it's a different player mindset now from the old school days.
You don't have to have a 'harsh' death penalty to make something hard. The fact that a death mechanic exists and that people experience it shows that there is something they are not accomplishing. If the content were easy, players wouldn't experience the death mechanic in the first place.
WoW is probably the best example of a game where the death penalty is easy to deal with. However, the raids are not zergs. For one, you are limited in the number of players you can bring. For another, you are limited by your gear. You have to learn the dance, and then get your gear to a high enough level to make doing the raid encounters possible. This takes a certain amount of time. The developers chose to have players spending their time doing the encounters rather than fixing their characters after a death. The developers could have had players spend time addressing their death, but instead had players doing the content and increased the amount of time it takes to do the content by making it harder.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Just a different MMO player culture than when they started. Players toughed through things and that in itself when accomplished was rewarding. Effort brought reward...now it is just the opposite. Players want reward without effort, and can't fathom harsh death penalties (Not perma-death. But de-level, etc.), xp loss. Or that adrenaline rush of those risks you knew existed for what you were attempting and the possible consequences. It made you stop and THINK, and plan your actions carefully instead of simply leroying in because..eh, what difference does it make if you die. You can just spawn again 10 feet away with full hp's/mana and try again...no biggie. Personally...I see less fun in the latter. It's boring, mindless, and requires no strategy. It has NOTHING to do with punishing poor players...nice try though. Most PvPers thrive on poor players to pad their stats or simply to grief all day to thrill themselves.
Anyways, THAT is why you don't see companies or dev's developing many games with death penalties, or any other real challenge anymore. They know the majority (Newer generation of players mainly) want mindless zerg fun (Make MMO's more like console games, which is what they aren't suppose to be...hence, a different genre.)...so that is all they focus on. Whining would ensue or low server populations if they tried it..so why bother.
But...that's my personal opinion I suppose, and no matter what I say, or anyone else says in this thread...no one will see it eye to eye, so why bother the argument. As I said...it's a different player mindset now from the old school days.
You don't have to have a 'harsh' death penalty to make something hard. The fact that a death mechanic exists and that people experience it shows that there is something they are not accomplishing. If the content were easy, players wouldn't experience the death mechanic in the first place.
WoW is probably the best example of a game where the death penalty is easy to deal with. However, the raids are not zergs. For one, you are limited in the number of players you can bring. For another, you are limited by your gear. You have to learn the dance, and then get your gear to a high enough level to make doing the raid encounters possible. This takes a certain amount of time. The developers chose to have players spending their time doing the encounters rather than fixing their characters after a death. The developers could have had players spend time addressing their death, but instead had players doing the content and increased the amount of time it takes to do the content by making it harder.
Read what I wrote. I didn't say death penalty in particular made it harder. Just added that rush for the fear of death. Made you think about your actions. And you repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat the same content to upgrade your gear in most WoW raid content. PLEASE don't try and tell me WoW is hard...it is not. It's like any other MMO. It may be hard for the first few raids until you get a pattern down simply because you don't know what to expect...then it's just farming until your digits and eyes bleed. But that can be said for most MMO's now....sadly.
But of the countless MMO's I have played over the years...WoW's content was the easiest I have encountered by far.....personally.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
The game is what the game is.
"Self inflicting" anything is not the game.
A harsh death penalty means you don't want to die, but you do.
If you "self inflict" it, then you must want it.
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
First of all both examples are bad to my opinion.
Two reasons:
A) In EQ , if remember correctly, the penalty was xp loss, which to my opinion is the lamest form of HDP.
Like many people have mentioned already, the mechanics have to allow the HDP system to work. If the mechanics are designed to support a gameplay involving no death penalties having HDP's will ruin the gaming experience because it wasn't designed for it.
Add HDP's in WoW and WoW is ruined. Remove HDP's in EVE and EVE is ruined.
HDP is more than just about the "rush". It also makes the player driven economy of "gear" much more meaningfull. Remove HDP's from EVE and the economy will crumble, lots of industrialists will leave because their market will be gone.
(and let's not forget it makes people think twice before refusing to learn and just keep on sucking and pulling entire instance groups down with their repeated failures)
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
The game is what the game is.
"Self inflicting" anything is not the game.
A harsh death penalty means you don't want to die, but you do.
If you "self inflict" it, then you must want it.
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
You must pick and choose which posts you wish to respond to that reinforce your own point, because I am pro- harsher death penalty....not perma-death...that is a bit too extreme. But not because I choose it to be on others more than myself. That is just a BS statement to cop-out that you simply want everything to allow you to be 1337 24/7 in an MMO and not have consequences for stupid decisions.
Yes, if there was an option for it in a game and others chose not to use it, I still would. Why? Because I played MMO's when they were in their infancy, and I have experienced it. To me, it made it more fun because of what I stated in my earlier posts (Go read them, not repeating it). If others want to mindlessly go through the motions rushing groups of 6 and 8 enemies because death has no meaning...more power to them, just not my bag. I'd rather think "Ok, there are 6 mobs at that enterance. Somehow I gotta figure out how to maybe just pull a couple at a time, or some other strategy to get through this alive". If I die...lesson learned, try another way....my heart was pumping hard through the whole fight because there was RISK to my efforts. If I pull it off? The increased staisfaction of not only xp and possible drops...but the fact I pulled it off and lived through it. ............................................and as General mentioned...it makes for a real player driven economy with gear/weapon wear and tear as well.
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
First of all both examples are bad to my opinion.
Two reasons:
A) In EQ , if remember correctly, the penalty was xp loss, which to my opinion is the lamest form of HDP.
Yeah whatever ROLLEYES. Not a real answer, so never mind.
Like many people have mentioned already, the mechanics have to allow the HDP system to work. If the mechanics are designed to support a gameplay involving no death penalties having HDP's will ruin the gaming experience because it wasn't designed for it.
Nothing about WoW is Original remember? So what is so different about WoW's mechanics and EQ mechanics that wouldnt allow the same level of DP?
Add HDP's in WoW and WoW is ruined. Remove HDP's in EVE and EVE is ruined.
Now we getting somewhere. Explain to me please how WoW would be ruined by HDP.
HDP is more than just about the "rush". It also makes the player driven economy of "gear" much more meaningfull. Remove HDP's from EVE and the economy will crumble, lots of industrialists will leave because their market will be gone.
Oh yeah,,, my bad, so how does this work in EQ again?
(and let's not forget it makes people think twice before refusing to learn and just keep on sucking and pulling entire instance groups down with their repeated failures)
Umm, so people dont do bad in games with HDP? really? wow!!!!! I guess everybody can beat a MMORPG's Contents that doesnt have HDP... Hey I beat WoW's Lich King and Kel the same day it came out. really I did
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
The game is what the game is.
"Self inflicting" anything is not the game.
A harsh death penalty means you don't want to die, but you do.
If you "self inflict" it, then you must want it.
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
I'm not sure how many other ways this can be explained to you. It isn't a matter of forcing gameplay on others unless you are in some uniquely odd situation where you have someone making you play games that have penalties you are not comfortable with. That's not a game design issue but rather something you need to work out with the local authorities or a marriage counselor.
People have presented that whether or not the game imposes the restriction/penalty is what makes all the difference for them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
The game is what the game is.
"Self inflicting" anything is not the game.
A harsh death penalty means you don't want to die, but you do.
If you "self inflict" it, then you must want it.
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
You must pick and choose which posts you wish to respond to that reinforce your own point, because I am pro- harsher death penalty....not perma-death...that is a bit too extreme. But not because I choose it to be on others more than myself. That is just a BS statement to cop-out that you simply want everything to allow you to be 1337 24/7 in an MMO and not have consequences for stupid decisions.
Yes, if there was an option for it in a game and others chose not to use it, I still would. Why? Because I played MMO's when they were in their infancy, and I have experienced it. To me, it made it more fun because of what I stated in my earlier posts (Go read them, not repeating it). If others want to mindlessly go through the motions rushing groups of 6 and 8 enemies because death has no meaning...more power to them, just not my bag. I'd rather think "Ok, there are 6 mobs at that enterance. Somehow I gotta figure out how to maybe just pull a couple at a time, or some other strategy to get through this alive". If I die...lesson learned, try another way....my heart was pumping hard through the whole fight because there was RISK to my efforts. if I pull it off? The increased staisfaction of not only xp and possible drops...but the fact I pulled it off and lived through it. ............................................and as General mentioned...it makes for a real player driven economy with gear/weapon wear and tear as well.
wow too bad we dont have more Pro HDP players that think like you
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
First of all both examples are bad to my opinion.
Two reasons:
A) In EQ , if remember correctly, the penalty was xp loss, which to my opinion is the lamest form of HDP.
Yeah whatever ROLLEYES. Not a real answer, so never mind.
It actually is. HDP =/= HDP . One can favor full loot but think exp removal is silly. You can't every pro HDP in the same pot.
Like many people have mentioned already, the mechanics have to allow the HDP system to work. If the mechanics are designed to support a gameplay involving no death penalties having HDP's will ruin the gaming experience because it wasn't designed for it.
Nothing about WoW is Original remember? So what is so different about WoW's mechanics and EQ mechanics that wouldnt allow the same level of DP?
Considering i think an exp removal is stupid i don't think i need to even answer this. For me the best HDP is a full loot system. This cannot work in a game like WoW, period.
Add HDP's in WoW and WoW is ruined. Remove HDP's in EVE and EVE is ruined.
Now we getting somewhere. Explain to me please how WoW would be ruined by HDP.
HDP is more than just about the "rush". It also makes the player driven economy of "gear" much more meaningfull. Remove HDP's from EVE and the economy will crumble, lots of industrialists will leave because their market will be gone.
Oh yeah,,, my bad, so how does this work in EQ again?
Now , again, i didn't play EQ so i may be mistaking but isn't the penalty to death in EQ the loss of exp? So how is that relevant? I'm giving an example of a game with an HDP through the use of loss of loot and how removing that would ruin the economy of the game.
I don't care how exp losses work in a game, i don't like that kind of HDP anyway.
(and let's not forget it makes people think twice before refusing to learn and just keep on sucking and pulling entire instance groups down with their repeated failures)
Umm, so people dont do bad in games with HDP? really? wow!!!!! I guess everybody can beat a MMORPG's Contents that doesnt have HDP... Hey I beat WoW's Lich King and Kel the same day it came out. really I did
A real eye opener was Incursion PUG's in EVE. The content is easier than most instances in MMORPG's yet the communication level is much higher, tags are constantly used, so are broadcasts and all that shit. Why do you think that is? Because people don't want to lose their shiny faction battleships. In WOW PUG's barely communicated and just zerged around.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt. Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
MMOExposed just doesn't ge t it since this is his thread and he doesn't get the point might as well close it.
Overall I liked the discussion some very good points for both sides, though my point still stands:
Different games for different players, you cant please everyone with one game.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
[quote]Originally posted by lizardbones What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite. [/b][/quote]
Very few features have an intrinsic value, games are complex systems, and how everything operates together is where the value comes from. These kinds of market research that say that 90% of players like X, in effect means that very few of the players who like Y have anything to play. Desire to play Y, in a market completely SATURATED with X, means you get a bunch of vocal people who want to complain.
The thing is, 90% of the players who like X, aren't going to only buy your version of X. They are going to be split between X1, X2, X3, X4... infinity. If someone made a good game Y, a large number of that remaining 10% would buy Y, and you would capture a whole new market that doesn't really play mmos today. You might even catch some people who never saw the survey.
I'm more interested in companies making smaller games aimed at a narrower segment of the market, making a really good game for that market, and being sustainable, profitable off of it. Don't spend so much money on the game trying to make it capture the whole pie - find the piece of the pie that is yours for the taking, and spend an appropriate amount of money. I think you will be more successful than trying to topple king Blizzard.
But you generally don't see it. Everyone falls over each other, with big budgets, trying to feed the 90%, while the 10% goes hungry. Or you have the other players, who are too small to spend the appropriate amount of money. We have big games and small games, but no medium. It's actually pretty similar to other genres of gaming. There is AAA and indie, but very little "A", or "AA".
Wow am I off topic :P Harsh death penalties would have to fit the game. Self inflicting a death penalty in a game that wasn't designed for it doesn't make sense. The first game, MUD, had only 10 levels. If you got killed on level 10, it wasn't much of a treadmill to get back. And it was fun to be level 10 knowing that you had to work to get there. The gameplay was in trying to get to level 10 and staying there as long as you could. There were a ton of fun tricks that you could employ to help your survivability, and finding out what you could do was part of the fun. Each time you went up to 10, you would learn new ways to stay alive. Completely different mentality from modern games. And it's not really about the rush, though that is part of it.
I never liked corpse runs myself - I just died in that spot, why should I go to the same spot, where I will most likely die again? Lol I think I spent an afternoon on a game just trying to get my stuff back from a dungeon and make it out alive. It was stressful and unfun.
To me Hardcore death penalities are far from just the rush, they are also about the style and type of players playing it. Would players run around suiciding and using the spirit healers to get from point A to point B faster in WoW if WoW had a actual Death penalty like EXP loss. nope. Would the Wizard's evac spell in EQ of had much of a meaning if EQ didn't have corpse runs and exp loss, nope. Death penalities add depth into a game by giving more meaning to preventing death and to actually form a strategy for a dungeon before dying a million times. The harsher the death penalty also generally increases the quality of the players. Most of your annoying players aren't going to be willing to play in a Exp loss enviroment.
Of course perma-death and full loot/semi-loot PvP are two different stories completely, both require a completely different kind of gameplay to support.
How about you have your game where death is meaningless, and I'll have mine where I'm on the edge of my seat when running away from players of an enemy realm because I might drop a precious item?
Originally posted by nedrith To me Hardcore death penalities are far from just the rush, they are also about the style and type of players playing it. Would players run around suiciding and using the spirit healers to get from point A to point B faster in WoW if WoW had a actual Death penalty like EXP loss. nope. Would the Wizard's evac spell in EQ of had much of a meaning if EQ didn't have corpse runs and exp loss, nope. Death penalities add depth into a game by giving more meaning to preventing death and to actually form a strategy for a dungeon before dying a million times. The harsher the death penalty also generally increases the quality of the players. Most of your annoying players aren't going to be willing to play in a Exp loss enviroment. Of course perma-death and full loot/semi-loot PvP are two different stories completely, both require a completely different kind of gameplay to support.
yea i bet people would hate raiding a whole hell of a lot less if there were actually death penalties, instead of the juggernaut lemmings style raids we have today.
in vanguard for example, I actually died or I should say wiped, but probably died too, far less in dungeons than I did in wow.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity. I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
One difference between EQ and WoW is that EQ had a lot of abilities to avoid death where as WoW had mostly combat abilities. Like I said above part of the strategy in EQ is to decide if and when to use evac to escape back to home and avoid death. Do you trust in your team's abilities or do you think that the enemy is stronger and going on will mean death. Also EQ allowed for a bit more strategy where WoW was more mindless and twitch based. EQ usually allows for escaping from death where as WoW more promotes testing things through death. I can count many battles where a bad start will result in quite a few unavoidable deaths in the first 5-10 seconds of a battle. There were a lot of other differences but they would take too long to list.
Yes people do bad in games with HDPs. The main difference is most bad players don't get all the way up to become raiders in PvE, hell many won't even hit level cap especially in a game with exp loss. In PvP with full loot they'll generally get tired of losing their gear and quit. The less bad looking way of looking at this also is many players who would of normally of been terrible players will try to get better and some will become great players. So yes the more of a HDP there is generally the better of the quality of players. Many of WoW's players are pretty good, they have just gotten lazy.
The point is there is many reasons to like HDPs more than just because you like the mechanic, I support them more because I like the better community and not having to pick through a lot of bad or lazy players to form a good group.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
Two replies to you.
First you said I did not play old games, back in the days, we do a lot differently, because those were the only games. We suffer hours of hours of corpse running, we lost our fully geared main to a bug in the Planes, where we cannot recover our bodies due to a glitch in targetting. We do all these why? because that is the only good game out there. Not that it is the best ever, it was the best then, now it was old. You still love it? Fine, few of us do, so we left.
Second, you said we should play another game. Nice, we did, we abandoned EQ1, practically none care for the few crappy ffa pvp game out there, each of them scrapping a handful thousands at best. We did move on. The sad news is for the harsh penalty fans, they have so few to choose. We are not trying to change your game, if there are any, we are talking about the moans from many "self confessed hardcore" players, who keeps telling us we should enjoy harsh whatever penalty because that makes us a man or superman. We do not.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Well at first what is harsh for you? Is ist xp lost & corpse run or full loot?
I do agree though the game has to be tailored around the penalty. WoW as an example never had a real death penalty "ghost mode" and not losing xp is not what I call a penalty hell some used it for traveling purpose.
Don't overestimate the market research people, those guys are using the official forums and stuff like Facebook for their work and if the investors don't like it companies will still do the stupid catering to everyone which will never work.
What really pisses me off is carebears coming into games with harsher death penalties calling for dumb down/easymode instead of just leaving the game and play something tailored for them.
You still need to insult people? Carebears? You know these people? Some of them might be highly decorated soldiers from long years of overseas services. My guildmate was a decorated ex-soldier who lost his hearing after an incidence and he play games not seeking your kind of penality. He has a different vision about his games and he becomes a carebear? Nice, I realise you are rambo. Sorry. Mio respecto.
Don't overestimate the market research people, instead I should trust you. Good advice, I will tell the board directors next time I fly back home.
Fact is, why do we need to penalise people in a game they come for entertainment. Why not build in big clubs in a cinema and club the views during sad moments of the movie, just to have them feel the pain? I am sure everyone come to watch a sad movie just to shed tons of tears.
As for "carebears" spamming your beloved games, how many harsh games there are still left in the market, how many subs there are, how many people care about them. The "Carebears" have too many games to choose from, you can't get them to look at harsh penalty games unless you pay them $1000 to try it out. So stop pretending you are any victim in this respect. Games like DF or MO are literally on their knees begging cheating conning one or two odd curious carebear to come try their game and keep their boat floating.
I'm a big fan of self imposed restrictions. It can be fun to give myself personal challenges once a game has become boring, it breathes new life into it. So I can see giving myself the "rush" of a nasty death penalty. People overlook, however, the impact it will have on the game. I'll play differently because of that. Having OTHERS under the same restrictions will change their gameplay too, however, and this is something that can't happen just by imposing it on myself.
To me Hardcore death penalities are far from just the rush, they are also about the style and type of players playing it. Would players run around suiciding and using the spirit healers to get from point A to point B faster in WoW if WoW had a actual Death penalty like EXP loss. nope. Would the Wizard's evac spell in EQ of had much of a meaning if EQ didn't have corpse runs and exp loss, nope. Death penalities add depth into a game by giving more meaning to preventing death and to actually form a strategy for a dungeon before dying a million times. The harsher the death penalty also generally increases the quality of the players. Most of your annoying players aren't going to be willing to play in a Exp loss enviroment.
Of course perma-death and full loot/semi-loot PvP are two different stories completely, both require a completely different kind of gameplay to support.
yea i bet people would hate raiding a whole hell of a lot less if there were actually death penalties, instead of the juggernaut lemmings style raids we have today.
in vanguard for example, I actually died or I should say wiped, but probably died too, far less in dungeons than I did in wow.
Good point In games with harsher death penalties you are dying less often, because everyone is focused and knowledgable.
I think the femming raiding style is also part off why so many people are getting tired of the new raiding style. Back in the days:
you want to raid?
max level
Get some gear -
flags and join a raiding guild
nowadays:
get some gear (= run the SAME instance over and over and over and over)
get some stupid voice tool and listen to the crap people are talking about in the breaks
watch a video...
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
Companies do not have magic mind control buttons, forcing people to like what they like.
You couldn't be any more wrong...
I cannot believe you are this ignorant of the reality of the success and power of advertising. Commercials, internet ads, emailers, billboards...these all tell the majority of society what to like, and how.
In fact, the majority of what a society likes is entirely based on what that society says is acceptable, enjoyable, and entertaining. If a society shunned those who played sports but praised those who played chess, and all major athletes and millionaire professional players were chess players...it is no different than forcing people to like chess and dislike sports.
Not that all people are brainwashed by social norms or commercialization, but yes...most people are.
If you don't believe me that companies have a magic mind control button, then please educate yourself on the success of companies such as Nike, McDonalds, or most of all--- APPLE.
MAC's are overpriced hardware (compared to the PC equivalent) and the primary reason for sales is that you are buying the "Mac" prestige and title which comes with owning an Apple product. You hear "Volvo" and you think of a safe car. You own an Apple product and you feel like you're helping the world, you feel like you're professional, successful, and prestigious. You own a PC and you feel techy, intelligent, and pragmatic. Run Linux and you are [] close to being considered a l337 underground programmer.
Our society basically forces people to like what they like, through commercials or through social norms. You have to be pretty naive to think otherwise. Unless of course you've never bought a product because a talking hamburger on TV commanded you to. Consider yourself lucky, because you're in the minority.
You people say you like it because of the Rush you feel when doing anything. well why not self inflict your penalty? why force others to also have harsh Death Penalty?
Nobody is forcing YOU to play a game like this. You DON'T have to buy it and play it. In fact WE don't even want YOU in a game like this because you'd bitch up a storm claiming it's too hard and demand change, something WE aren't doing but would rather have a game designed for us to play.
do you need others to suffer for you to feel your rush?
Read my first response.
I am confused. can some of you Pro-Harsh-Death-Penalty community members address this, and clear up some confusion please.
Why is it, you have a problem self inflicting your penalty so only you will have this Rush you so enjoy, and not making everybody playing the game to share in your Rush?
Granted that the majority of the community likes playing games with little to no death penalty and that's all fine and good. What most of you don't understand is that we don't want you to suffer any kind of death penalty, we don't really mind you having none at all. All we are asking is for a game to be made that addresses our tastes and likes so that we can enjoy what we like.
Nowhere did we say we want you to HAVE TO play our game and like our game style. We are not forcing you to do anything. If you don't like the kind of game style DON'T buy the game and DON'T pay the montly sub.
Do you go out and buy RTS games if you don't like the play style? What about FPS games? Do you still play Counter Strike even though you think shooting people with realistic guns is a stupid idea? Of course you don't. It does not appeal to you and you have opted out of purchasing those kinds of games. (FPS and RTS are only examples I don't know what you like or don't like)
I would like to know how you feel forced to do anything when it comes to playing a game and paying for it? Is there some scarry lookin guy/girl with a giant gun taped to your head saying you must play whatever we tell you? Because to me that scenario is the only one that makes sense.
Like one of the other posters in this thread said if there's anything being forced upon other people here is the majority rule that makes it more profitable to make games that cater to your tastes with little to no death penalty thus alienating the people that do want it.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Companies do not have magic mind control buttons, forcing people to like what they like.
You couldn't be any more wrong...
I cannot believe you are this ignorant of the reality of the success and power of advertising. Commercials, internet ads, emailers, billboards...these all tell the majority of society what to like, and how.
In fact, the majority of what a society likes is entirely based on what that society says is acceptable, enjoyable, and entertaining. If a society shunned those who played sports but praised those who played chess, and all major athletes and millionaire professional players were chess players...it is no different than forcing people to like chess and dislike sports.
Not that all people are brainwashed by social norms or commercialization, but yes...most people are.
If you don't believe me that companies have a magic mind control button, then please educate yourself on the success of companies such as Nike, McDonalds, or most of all--- APPLE.
MAC's are overpriced hardware (compared to the PC equivalent) and the primary reason for sales is that you are buying the "Mac" prestige and title which comes with owning an Apple product. You hear "Volvo" and you think of a safe car. You own an Apple product and you feel like you're helping the world, you feel like you're professional, successful, and prestigious. You own a PC and you feel techy, intelligent, and pragmatic. Run Linux and you are [] close to being considered a l337 underground programmer.
Our society basically forces people to like what they like, through commercials or through social norms. You have to be pretty naive to think otherwise. Unless of course you've never bought a product because a talking hamburger on TV commanded you to. Consider yourself lucky, because you're in the minority.
Thanks for telling me what ad can do. I do remember the dictim from one of my teachers "you can bring a curious customer in with a nice ad, but you cannot keep him from leaving unless there is something else inside your shop"
To explain years of sub, millions of persistent sub, using just ad and brainwashing. You happen to have developed an objective way of measuring brainwashing of millions of people you never get to know in person? Can you also explain the behaviour of billions of stars out there in the universe, which you also never get to see in person? Nice crytal ball reader. Very nice.
If you don't believe me that companies have a magic mind control button, then please educate yourself on the success of companies such as Nike, McDonalds, or most of all--- APPLE.
MAC's are overpriced hardware (compared to the PC equivalent) and the primary reason for sales is that you are buying the "Mac" prestige and title which comes with owning an Apple product. You hear "Volvo" and you think of a safe car. You own an Apple product and you feel like you're helping the world, you feel like you're professional, successful, and prestigious. You own a PC and you feel techy, intelligent, and pragmatic. Run Linux and you are [] close to being considered a l337 underground programmer.
You're forgetting the most important thing that Apple sells with its products -- CONVENIENCE. Apple products are designed to work out of the box with next to no hassles for the end user. It's tech for people who don't want to worry about which processor, memory card, video card, or whatever to have to buy for things to work. It's why the iPod, iPhone, and iPad have such a major presence in the market. People can intuitively use them and can do what they need to do without much technical expertise on their part.
Are they overpriced compared to a similarly equipped PC? Sure. But they serve their purpose. For people who just want to get on with things and not have to jump through a lot of technical hoops, they go for a Mac.
Advertising and marketing are not just a bunch of magic mind control buttons. It's much more complex than that.
Comments
Just a different MMO player culture than when MMO's started and the playerbase then. Players toughed through things ( Meanign long epic quests, death penatlites that included xp loss and de-leveling possibly, naked corpse runs, etc.) and that in itself when accomplished was rewarding. Effort brought reward...now it is just the opposite. Players want reward without effort, and can't fathom harsh death penalties (Not perma-death. however). Or that adrenaline rush of those risks you knew existed for what you were attempting and the possible consequences. It made you stop and THINK, and plan your actions carefully instead of simply leroying in because..eh, what difference does it make if you die. You can just spawn again 10 feet away with full hp's/mana and try again...no biggie. Personally...I see less fun in the latter. It's boring, mindless, and requires no strategy. It has NOTHING to do with punishing poor players...nice try though. Most PvPers thrive on poor players to pad their stats or simply to grief all day to thrill themselves.
Anyways, THAT is why you don't see companies or dev's developing many games with death penalties, or any other real challenge anymore. They know the majority (Newer generation of players mainly) want mindless zerg fun (Make MMO's more like console games, which is what they aren't suppose to be...hence, a different genre.)...so that is all they focus on. Whining would ensue or low server populations if they tried it..so why bother. There are plenty of players that would love to see death penalties, etc. But just not enough to sway the suits to risk getting less money for yatchs and vacations when the majority are so vocal. And btw...selfish if you ask me. Because there are TONS of options for MMO's without harsh death penalties, etc. But thsoe that want it, can't seem to have even one or voice wanting one without the majority raising hell about it and say it's being forced on them. Please. (And yes, I am aware of EVE...played it. And not talking PvP MMO's either)
But...that's my personal opinion I suppose, and no matter what I say, or anyone else says in this thread...no one will see it eye to eye, so why bother the argument. As I said...it's a different player mindset now from the old school days.
Wow , you litterally ignored every single explanation given in the whole topic just to pick one reply from someone who doesn't like the concept and say "yah you're totally right!".
If you won't read the responses don't ask questions, this feels like cheap trolling.
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
....
.....
.....
Your sentiment in the last paragraph of your post is not one that developers are going to share, unless the harsher mechanics are required for the type of game they've developed.
But what I wonder is, how are you, a proponent of harsh death penalties, forcing that upon me? I don't feel like I'm being forced to play in a game with a harsh death penalty against my will. In fact, I'm sure of it.
Then simple play another game? Why is that so hard to understand? Different games for different players instead of one game for everyone. Like I wrote I have played games with and without a death penalty, the latter communities.
I think you've misunderstood my post. I'm wondering, per the OP's post, how you've forced harsh death penalties in the games I play upon me. I was pointing out how the question was nonsensical.
I've played games with 'harsh' death penalties and games without (if you count full loot from pvp kills as 'harsh'). I think death penalties should makes sense for the game, and for the people the developer is targeting for their game. That means WoW should not have a harsh death penalty, because it's not targeted at players who would appreciate it. Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online probably should have a 'harsh' death penalty because it fits the games and the target audience of the games.
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
Just a different MMO player culture than when they started. Players toughed through things and that in itself when accomplished was rewarding. Effort brought reward...now it is just the opposite. Players want reward without effort, and can't fathom harsh death penalties (Not perma-death. But de-level, etc.), xp loss. Or that adrenaline rush of those risks you knew existed for what you were attempting and the possible consequences. It made you stop and THINK, and plan your actions carefully instead of simply leroying in because..eh, what difference does it make if you die. You can just spawn again 10 feet away with full hp's/mana and try again...no biggie. Personally...I see less fun in the latter. It's boring, mindless, and requires no strategy. It has NOTHING to do with punishing poor players...nice try though. Most PvPers thrive on poor players to pad their stats or simply to grief all day to thrill themselves.
Anyways, THAT is why you don't see companies or dev's developing many games with death penalties, or any other real challenge anymore. They know the majority (Newer generation of players mainly) want mindless zerg fun (Make MMO's more like console games, which is what they aren't suppose to be...hence, a different genre.)...so that is all they focus on. Whining would ensue or low server populations if they tried it..so why bother.
But...that's my personal opinion I suppose, and no matter what I say, or anyone else says in this thread...no one will see it eye to eye, so why bother the argument. As I said...it's a different player mindset now from the old school days.
You don't have to have a 'harsh' death penalty to make something hard. The fact that a death mechanic exists and that people experience it shows that there is something they are not accomplishing. If the content were easy, players wouldn't experience the death mechanic in the first place.
WoW is probably the best example of a game where the death penalty is easy to deal with. However, the raids are not zergs. For one, you are limited in the number of players you can bring. For another, you are limited by your gear. You have to learn the dance, and then get your gear to a high enough level to make doing the raid encounters possible. This takes a certain amount of time. The developers chose to have players spending their time doing the encounters rather than fixing their characters after a death. The developers could have had players spend time addressing their death, but instead had players doing the content and increased the amount of time it takes to do the content by making it harder.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Read what I wrote. I didn't say death penalty in particular made it harder. Just added that rush for the fear of death. Made you think about your actions. And you repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat the same content to upgrade your gear in most WoW raid content. PLEASE don't try and tell me WoW is hard...it is not. It's like any other MMO. It may be hard for the first few raids until you get a pattern down simply because you don't know what to expect...then it's just farming until your digits and eyes bleed. But that can be said for most MMO's now....sadly.
But of the countless MMO's I have played over the years...WoW's content was the easiest I have encountered by far.....personally.
Here I will try to explain this better. If players had the OPTION to play the same EQ1 with you and others, without a HDP, would you still play it on HDP setting? if so, would you still get that "Rush" you feel?
From what I can see from the responces in this thread, you and likely every other Pro-HDP would not have this "Rush" simply because OTHERS arent punished for their mistakes.
But what do OTHERS have to do with YOU and how YOU FEEL?
nobody seems to want to answer this.
-----------------------------------------------------
Now lets take WoW for this example.
If WoW had a OPTION to play it with a HDP setting, with you and others that play it on normal DP setting, would you play it? If so, would you get that "Rush"?
I think we both already know the answer.
again my point is simple. Pro-HDP players only want it if its forced on others.
By this, I am not saying, they want to force people to play game x,y,z what I am saying is that they dont want to play a game that gives people the option to choose the level of harshness of the DP.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
First of all both examples are bad to my opinion.
Two reasons:
A) In EQ , if remember correctly, the penalty was xp loss, which to my opinion is the lamest form of HDP.
Add HDP's in WoW and WoW is ruined. Remove HDP's in EVE and EVE is ruined.
HDP is more than just about the "rush". It also makes the player driven economy of "gear" much more meaningfull. Remove HDP's from EVE and the economy will crumble, lots of industrialists will leave because their market will be gone.
(and let's not forget it makes people think twice before refusing to learn and just keep on sucking and pulling entire instance groups down with their repeated failures)
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
You must pick and choose which posts you wish to respond to that reinforce your own point, because I am pro- harsher death penalty....not perma-death...that is a bit too extreme. But not because I choose it to be on others more than myself. That is just a BS statement to cop-out that you simply want everything to allow you to be 1337 24/7 in an MMO and not have consequences for stupid decisions.
Yes, if there was an option for it in a game and others chose not to use it, I still would. Why? Because I played MMO's when they were in their infancy, and I have experienced it. To me, it made it more fun because of what I stated in my earlier posts (Go read them, not repeating it). If others want to mindlessly go through the motions rushing groups of 6 and 8 enemies because death has no meaning...more power to them, just not my bag. I'd rather think "Ok, there are 6 mobs at that enterance. Somehow I gotta figure out how to maybe just pull a couple at a time, or some other strategy to get through this alive". If I die...lesson learned, try another way....my heart was pumping hard through the whole fight because there was RISK to my efforts. If I pull it off? The increased staisfaction of not only xp and possible drops...but the fact I pulled it off and lived through it. ............................................and as General mentioned...it makes for a real player driven economy with gear/weapon wear and tear as well.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I'm not sure how many other ways this can be explained to you. It isn't a matter of forcing gameplay on others unless you are in some uniquely odd situation where you have someone making you play games that have penalties you are not comfortable with. That's not a game design issue but rather something you need to work out with the local authorities or a marriage counselor.
People have presented that whether or not the game imposes the restriction/penalty is what makes all the difference for them.
General3 had a very succinct and accurate post. However, you're probably more of a kitarad fan.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
wow too bad we dont have more Pro HDP players that think like you
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Among those who dislike oppression are many who like to oppress.
MMOExposed just doesn't ge t it since this is his thread and he doesn't get the point might as well close it.
Overall I liked the discussion some very good points for both sides, though my point still stands:
Different games for different players, you cant please everyone with one game.
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
[quote]Originally posted by lizardbones
What I don't believe is that a 'harsh' death penalty has an intrinsic value, and would increase the value of a game, any game that you add it to. If this were true, then the people who do market research would show that as a bullet point and 'harsh' death penalties would start showing up in any game where you could die. This isn't the case...it's really more the opposite.
[/b][/quote]
Very few features have an intrinsic value, games are complex systems, and how everything operates together is where the value comes from. These kinds of market research that say that 90% of players like X, in effect means that very few of the players who like Y have anything to play. Desire to play Y, in a market completely SATURATED with X, means you get a bunch of vocal people who want to complain.
The thing is, 90% of the players who like X, aren't going to only buy your version of X. They are going to be split between X1, X2, X3, X4... infinity. If someone made a good game Y, a large number of that remaining 10% would buy Y, and you would capture a whole new market that doesn't really play mmos today. You might even catch some people who never saw the survey.
I'm more interested in companies making smaller games aimed at a narrower segment of the market, making a really good game for that market, and being sustainable, profitable off of it. Don't spend so much money on the game trying to make it capture the whole pie - find the piece of the pie that is yours for the taking, and spend an appropriate amount of money. I think you will be more successful than trying to topple king Blizzard.
But you generally don't see it. Everyone falls over each other, with big budgets, trying to feed the 90%, while the 10% goes hungry. Or you have the other players, who are too small to spend the appropriate amount of money. We have big games and small games, but no medium. It's actually pretty similar to other genres of gaming. There is AAA and indie, but very little "A", or "AA".
Wow am I off topic :P Harsh death penalties would have to fit the game. Self inflicting a death penalty in a game that wasn't designed for it doesn't make sense. The first game, MUD, had only 10 levels. If you got killed on level 10, it wasn't much of a treadmill to get back. And it was fun to be level 10 knowing that you had to work to get there. The gameplay was in trying to get to level 10 and staying there as long as you could. There were a ton of fun tricks that you could employ to help your survivability, and finding out what you could do was part of the fun. Each time you went up to 10, you would learn new ways to stay alive. Completely different mentality from modern games. And it's not really about the rush, though that is part of it.
I never liked corpse runs myself - I just died in that spot, why should I go to the same spot, where I will most likely die again? Lol I think I spent an afternoon on a game just trying to get my stuff back from a dungeon and make it out alive. It was stressful and unfun.
To me Hardcore death penalities are far from just the rush, they are also about the style and type of players playing it. Would players run around suiciding and using the spirit healers to get from point A to point B faster in WoW if WoW had a actual Death penalty like EXP loss. nope. Would the Wizard's evac spell in EQ of had much of a meaning if EQ didn't have corpse runs and exp loss, nope. Death penalities add depth into a game by giving more meaning to preventing death and to actually form a strategy for a dungeon before dying a million times. The harsher the death penalty also generally increases the quality of the players. Most of your annoying players aren't going to be willing to play in a Exp loss enviroment.
Of course perma-death and full loot/semi-loot PvP are two different stories completely, both require a completely different kind of gameplay to support.
How about you have your game where death is meaningless, and I'll have mine where I'm on the edge of my seat when running away from players of an enemy realm because I might drop a precious item?
There. Problem solved.
yea i bet people would hate raiding a whole hell of a lot less if there were actually death penalties, instead of the juggernaut lemmings style raids we have today.
in vanguard for example, I actually died or I should say wiped, but probably died too, far less in dungeons than I did in wow.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
To answer a few questions that MMOexposed asked:
One difference between EQ and WoW is that EQ had a lot of abilities to avoid death where as WoW had mostly combat abilities. Like I said above part of the strategy in EQ is to decide if and when to use evac to escape back to home and avoid death. Do you trust in your team's abilities or do you think that the enemy is stronger and going on will mean death. Also EQ allowed for a bit more strategy where WoW was more mindless and twitch based. EQ usually allows for escaping from death where as WoW more promotes testing things through death. I can count many battles where a bad start will result in quite a few unavoidable deaths in the first 5-10 seconds of a battle. There were a lot of other differences but they would take too long to list.
Yes people do bad in games with HDPs. The main difference is most bad players don't get all the way up to become raiders in PvE, hell many won't even hit level cap especially in a game with exp loss. In PvP with full loot they'll generally get tired of losing their gear and quit. The less bad looking way of looking at this also is many players who would of normally of been terrible players will try to get better and some will become great players. So yes the more of a HDP there is generally the better of the quality of players. Many of WoW's players are pretty good, they have just gotten lazy.
The point is there is many reasons to like HDPs more than just because you like the mechanic, I support them more because I like the better community and not having to pick through a lot of bad or lazy players to form a good group.
Two replies to you.
First you said I did not play old games, back in the days, we do a lot differently, because those were the only games. We suffer hours of hours of corpse running, we lost our fully geared main to a bug in the Planes, where we cannot recover our bodies due to a glitch in targetting. We do all these why? because that is the only good game out there. Not that it is the best ever, it was the best then, now it was old. You still love it? Fine, few of us do, so we left.
Second, you said we should play another game. Nice, we did, we abandoned EQ1, practically none care for the few crappy ffa pvp game out there, each of them scrapping a handful thousands at best. We did move on. The sad news is for the harsh penalty fans, they have so few to choose. We are not trying to change your game, if there are any, we are talking about the moans from many "self confessed hardcore" players, who keeps telling us we should enjoy harsh whatever penalty because that makes us a man or superman. We do not.
You enjoy yours, we left. Peace for all.
You still need to insult people? Carebears? You know these people? Some of them might be highly decorated soldiers from long years of overseas services. My guildmate was a decorated ex-soldier who lost his hearing after an incidence and he play games not seeking your kind of penality. He has a different vision about his games and he becomes a carebear? Nice, I realise you are rambo. Sorry. Mio respecto.
Don't overestimate the market research people, instead I should trust you. Good advice, I will tell the board directors next time I fly back home.
Fact is, why do we need to penalise people in a game they come for entertainment. Why not build in big clubs in a cinema and club the views during sad moments of the movie, just to have them feel the pain? I am sure everyone come to watch a sad movie just to shed tons of tears.
As for "carebears" spamming your beloved games, how many harsh games there are still left in the market, how many subs there are, how many people care about them. The "Carebears" have too many games to choose from, you can't get them to look at harsh penalty games unless you pay them $1000 to try it out. So stop pretending you are any victim in this respect. Games like DF or MO are literally on their knees begging cheating conning one or two odd curious carebear to come try their game and keep their boat floating.
Good point In games with harsher death penalties you are dying less often, because everyone is focused and knowledgable.
I think the femming raiding style is also part off why so many people are getting tired of the new raiding style. Back in the days:
you want to raid?
max level
Get some gear -
flags and join a raiding guild
nowadays:
get some gear (= run the SAME instance over and over and over and over)
get some stupid voice tool and listen to the crap people are talking about in the breaks
watch a video...
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
You couldn't be any more wrong...
I cannot believe you are this ignorant of the reality of the success and power of advertising. Commercials, internet ads, emailers, billboards...these all tell the majority of society what to like, and how.
In fact, the majority of what a society likes is entirely based on what that society says is acceptable, enjoyable, and entertaining. If a society shunned those who played sports but praised those who played chess, and all major athletes and millionaire professional players were chess players...it is no different than forcing people to like chess and dislike sports.
Not that all people are brainwashed by social norms or commercialization, but yes...most people are.
If you don't believe me that companies have a magic mind control button, then please educate yourself on the success of companies such as Nike, McDonalds, or most of all--- APPLE.
MAC's are overpriced hardware (compared to the PC equivalent) and the primary reason for sales is that you are buying the "Mac" prestige and title which comes with owning an Apple product. You hear "Volvo" and you think of a safe car. You own an Apple product and you feel like you're helping the world, you feel like you're professional, successful, and prestigious. You own a PC and you feel techy, intelligent, and pragmatic. Run Linux and you are [] close to being considered a l337 underground programmer.
Our society basically forces people to like what they like, through commercials or through social norms. You have to be pretty naive to think otherwise. Unless of course you've never bought a product because a talking hamburger on TV commanded you to. Consider yourself lucky, because you're in the minority.
Granted that the majority of the community likes playing games with little to no death penalty and that's all fine and good. What most of you don't understand is that we don't want you to suffer any kind of death penalty, we don't really mind you having none at all. All we are asking is for a game to be made that addresses our tastes and likes so that we can enjoy what we like.
Nowhere did we say we want you to HAVE TO play our game and like our game style. We are not forcing you to do anything. If you don't like the kind of game style DON'T buy the game and DON'T pay the montly sub.
Do you go out and buy RTS games if you don't like the play style? What about FPS games? Do you still play Counter Strike even though you think shooting people with realistic guns is a stupid idea? Of course you don't. It does not appeal to you and you have opted out of purchasing those kinds of games. (FPS and RTS are only examples I don't know what you like or don't like)
I would like to know how you feel forced to do anything when it comes to playing a game and paying for it? Is there some scarry lookin guy/girl with a giant gun taped to your head saying you must play whatever we tell you? Because to me that scenario is the only one that makes sense.
Like one of the other posters in this thread said if there's anything being forced upon other people here is the majority rule that makes it more profitable to make games that cater to your tastes with little to no death penalty thus alienating the people that do want it.
No required quests! And if I decide I want to be an assassin-cartographer-dancer-pastry chef who lives only to stalk and kill interior decorators, then that's who I want to be, even if it takes me four years to max all the skills and everyone else thinks I'm freaking nuts. -Madimorga-
Thanks for telling me what ad can do. I do remember the dictim from one of my teachers "you can bring a curious customer in with a nice ad, but you cannot keep him from leaving unless there is something else inside your shop"
To explain years of sub, millions of persistent sub, using just ad and brainwashing. You happen to have developed an objective way of measuring brainwashing of millions of people you never get to know in person? Can you also explain the behaviour of billions of stars out there in the universe, which you also never get to see in person? Nice crytal ball reader. Very nice.
You're forgetting the most important thing that Apple sells with its products -- CONVENIENCE. Apple products are designed to work out of the box with next to no hassles for the end user. It's tech for people who don't want to worry about which processor, memory card, video card, or whatever to have to buy for things to work. It's why the iPod, iPhone, and iPad have such a major presence in the market. People can intuitively use them and can do what they need to do without much technical expertise on their part.
Are they overpriced compared to a similarly equipped PC? Sure. But they serve their purpose. For people who just want to get on with things and not have to jump through a lot of technical hoops, they go for a Mac.
Advertising and marketing are not just a bunch of magic mind control buttons. It's much more complex than that.