That's the risk that faces those of us who prefer the P2P model.
Throwing your hands up in the air saying "oh well, that's just the way it is" has never gone well with our species. Now, more than ever (enter the internet), it is important for people to discuss what they do and do not like about whatever topic it is they're discussing. Assuming the position and simply settling never yields positive results.
I see the "F2P" model as a parasite that has the potential to turn this entire genre (which I love) into something that I may have to say goodbye to. It is a system that gives less for more (if I want to enjoy the entire game, which I do). It is a system that favours the makers not the players (if I want to enjoy the entire game, which I do). It's enough that I pay a sub fee in addition to the cost of the box, that much I can handle. For me though, it crosses the line when I have to pay for nit picky little things such as items, abilities, skills, quests or other content etc. All of that can be included for a very small monthly fee. I'm not looking to take extended test drives of these games. A little bit research, a dash of YouTube, and a mix of the ever so common free fucking trial is all anyone should need these days.
The only kind of gamer I see that is the perfect pairing with the "F2P" model is the type that is constantly jumping from game to game. The type that has a dozen or more mmos on their HD at any given time. For any other type of gamer that supports this model, you are either insanely casual, as in you hardly ever progress very far in video games, or you're just a little out-there.
I think you touched on an important point here, but I don't necessarily agree with your characterization of F2P gamers as "game hoppers."
Anyway, the point you touched on is that players who play F2P games for free are essentially subsidized (paid for) by the players who pay. So, assuming that the entire industry does eventually adopt the F2P model as some state, this means that the players who pay very likely spend MORE than they would have if the game had been B2P. This basically has to be true in order for the F2P game to be profitable. SOMEONE has to make up for the money that the company isn't making on "free" players.
So who are these folks who are paying in the F2P games? Well, they are probably people that are really into the game but don't have too much free time. They very likely work and have a good deal of disposable income. Crap, that sounds a whole lot like me!
So to me, F2P means that I "get" to pay MORE so that younger folks who don't have as much disposable income can play for free. Not very appealing. I would prefer that I just pay $60 and have the game and maybe a sub and have everything in the game.
I think that if F2P got big while I was in school or college I would have been a lot more for it because it would benefit me at the cost of others. Now it costs me at the benefit of others.
Another reason I don't like the F2P model (or microtransaction abuse in general) is that there is no "cieling" on what you have to spend. In a (purely) B2P or P2P game, you buy the box, pay the sub, and that's it. You have everything the game can offer for $110 + $15 a month or something.
But in an F2P game? Buying everything the game has to offer can be ridiculously priced sometimes, like $1000 or more! I don't like having to pick and choose what I want, and I don't like being taken advantage of just because I have the ability to pay more.
Once again, this is assuming that F2P becomes the "dominant" business model, so please don't use the argument of "just don't play it."
F2P existed before P2P, but it is making a comeback because most P2P titles do not deliver the $15 dollar per month fee in content. Furthermore, I do not see people that prefer F2P games as casual as there has been an enormous shift. Lineage 2 will be free to play very soon in NA, but by no means that game can be considered casual.
To an extent, I suppose the thing that disgusts me the most about the F2P model is actually the players that play for free. Yes, a big deal is made of the deceptive practices of the game company - but little attention is given to the deceptive practices of the player.
A person produces a piece of work - movie, book, song, game, etc. They sell that product. If somebody does not pay for the product, but otherwise gains access to it - it is considered stealing. Whether it is a case of shoplifting, pirating, or downloading - it is still stealing.
But you can't steal something that somebody is giving away...no you can't. So what's the point?
If everybody played the game for free - what would happen to the game? It would shutdown. No revenue. No profit. No way to pay expenses. They're hoping that you enjoy the game and make purchases from the cash shop or you subscribe.
Many people have stated that they enjoy the game - but they do not spend a dime. It is not a case they cannot afford to spend that time. It is not a case they are not enjoying the game so they should not spend the dime. Much like them pirating a movie, book, song, or game - they are enjoying the work of the artist/developer, without rewarding or supporting them.
Not only are they stealing from the developer by not using the cash shop or possibly subscribing - but they are also stealing from the other players that do use the cash shop or subscribe to the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I would call the model that they like to call "Free to play" by its real name: Free to try or Freemium.
To download and install the client is usually free unless its a Guild Wars type model, by the client and that's it. You can also play the game albeit long enough to know if you like it or not. How long it takes me to find out if I like the game? A few hours at most. I am either going to love it, hate it or be lukewarm. I can play a lukewarm game if it doesn't cost me anything. I uninstall a game I hate, and I have hated a few. And a game I love I usually find out exactly what I need to spend to have a halfway decent experience.
See, that is where the westernized F2P or FTT or Freemium models kick me in the butt. Let's use City of Heroes as an example.
I have a L42 Demon summoning mastermind. In order for me to play that character I have to either sub (see what I did there?) for a "VIP Membership" or buy the class and the ability to summon demons separately. Either/OR cost around that magic $15 number. That irked me to no end. But I could play my slayer sub for free as long as I wanted. Where I was also constricted was in the market. I could only auction off a certain amount of items unless I (guess what) subbed to VIP Membership for the magical $15 number.
My answer to that: Uninstall. I don't hate the game, just don't love it enough to drop $15 on it.
Now if I was a new player, that would be a great idea. I can make a toon, test it out for a few days, maybe even a week or so until it came time to VIP or not. That's worth it to me, but as an established player it was not. I know City of... I got to 42 inside a free month and I bought the game for under $18 on steam. That's a deal to me, because I got 1 month of untethered play, no cash shops in my face or restrictions.
For a lukewarmy game like that, I would rather pay $15-20 straight out, play a month and if I don't love it, not sub again, at least they get that out of me.
I would call the model that they like to call "Free to play" by its real name: Free to try or Freemium.
To download and install the client is usually free unless its a Guild Wars type model, by the client and that's it. You can also play the game albeit long enough to know if you like it or not. How long it takes me to find out if I like the game? A few hours at most. I am either going to love it, hate it or be lukewarm. I can play a lukewarm game if it doesn't cost me anything. I uninstall a game I hate, and I have hated a few. And a game I love I usually find out exactly what I need to spend to have a halfway decent experience.
See, that is where the westernized F2P or FTT or Freemium models kick me in the butt. Let's use City of Heroes as an example.
I have a L42 Demon summoning mastermind. In order for me to play that character I have to either sub (see what I did there?) for a "VIP Membership" or buy the class and the ability to summon demons separately. Either/OR cost around that magic $15 number. That irked me to no end. But I could play my slayer sub for free as long as I wanted. Where I was also constricted was in the market. I could only auction off a certain amount of items unless I (guess what) subbed to VIP Membership for the magical $15 number.
My answer to that: Uninstall. I don't hate the game, just don't love it enough to drop $15 on it.
Now if I was a new player, that would be a great idea. I can make a toon, test it out for a few days, maybe even a week or so until it came time to VIP or not. That's worth it to me, but as an established player it was not. I know City of... I got to 42 inside a free month and I bought the game for under $18 on steam. That's a deal to me, because I got 1 month of untethered play, no cash shops in my face or restrictions.
For a lukewarmy game like that, I would rather pay $15-20 straight out, play a month and if I don't love it, not sub again, at least they get that out of me.
I did not have the issues with Freedom that you did. I had played the game off and on since beta back in '04. I had over three years of Vet rewards, had bought the various xpacs, most of the boosters, etc. I was basically missing IOs, Incarnate, SSAs, and...well - any of the new powersets/costume pieces.
As for your Demon Summoning - those were two of the options. In my case, I already had enough Reward Tokens in place from previously supporting the game - so it was already unlocked. The fourth option would have been buying your way up to that tier.
For me though, I realized that I was not going to be buying anything from the cash shop nor was I going to be subscribing. It was nice to be able to go back and try the game again, but I was not going to hang around if I was not paying for it - even though, I had paid for much of it in the past.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
See, that is where the westernized F2P or FTT or Freemium models kick me in the butt. Let's use City of Heroes as an example.
...
They are definitely trying a lot of variations on the F2P model on the Western side of things.
I am a longtime customer of the "Eastern" method: Play any class, any zone you want. Buy costumes, potions, XP hasteners and tools to make upgrades more succesful. I am currently playing Zentia in that way and love it. It's a classic F2P system which I gladly paid into.
I have yet to find a Western system that works for me. Just can't stand the idea that the world is "locked" behind pay walls. That I have to worry whether a friend has purchased the content I want to play.
In the Eastern F2P system you never have to worry about that. Perhaps their Hammer is only +6 instead of +8 or their Armor doesn't have +5 resistance to Earth spells but otherwise they're going wherever they want to, fighting together.
See, that is where the westernized F2P or FTT or Freemium models kick me in the butt. Let's use City of Heroes as an example.
...
They are definitely trying a lot of variations on the F2P model on the Western side of things.
I am a longtime customer of the "Eastern" method: Play any class, any zone you want. Buy costumes, potions, XP hasteners and tools to make upgrades more succesful. I am currently playing Zentia in that way and love it. It's a classic F2P system which I gladly paid into.
I have yet to find a Western system that works for me. Just can't stand the idea that the world is "locked" behind pay walls. That I have to worry whether a friend has purchased the content I want to play.
In the Eastern F2P system you never have to worry about that. Perhaps their Hammer is only +6 instead of +8 or their Armor doesn't have +5 resistance to Earth spells but otherwise they're going wherever they want to, fighting together.
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Instead of going around in circles arguing about if F2P games are really free or not, let me try a different angle.
I see F2P games kind of like...going to the mall. Much like an F2P game, it's absolutely free to go to the mall, and some folks can have a good time walking around the mall without spending any money at all.
BUT.
The mall is specifically engineered to make you spend money. Ads are strategically placed, the aroma of food wafts through the halls, tempting goods are displayed everywhere, and the dry air can make you really want to buy a drink. So whether you spend money or not, your experience will always be influenced by the fact that the whole mall is designed to make people spend money. Personally, I would rather not deal with this all the time.
Now on the other hand a P2P game is more like a country club. You pay your membership dues sure, but once you do that you're done. The club is not designed to make people spend more money, it's just designed to offer people a good time so they keep paying their dues.
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Instead of going around in circles arguing about if F2P games are really free or not, let me try a different angle.
I see F2P games kind of like...going to the mall. Much like an F2P game, it's absolutely free to go to the mall, and some folks can have a good time walking around the mall without spending any money at all.
BUT.
The mall is specifically engineered to make you spend money. Ads are strategically placed, the aroma of food wafts through the halls, tempting goods are displayed everywhere, and the dry air can make you really want to buy a drink. So whether you spend money or not, your experience will always be influenced by the fact that the whole mall is designed to make people spend money. Personally, I would rather not deal with this all the time.
Now on the other hand a P2P game is more like a country club. You pay your membership dues sure, but once you do that you're done. The club is not designed to make people spend more money, it's just designed to offer people a good time so they keep paying their dues.
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
Except that country clubs also have cafeterias and pro shops, trainers and coaches, carts to rent, clothing... and further more most country clubs have those shops, trainers, coaches, carts, clothing and a membership fee and you still pay monthly dues, and some still have course fees/booking fees. hmmm
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Instead of going around in circles arguing about if F2P games are really free or not, let me try a different angle.
I see F2P games kind of like...going to the mall. Much like an F2P game, it's absolutely free to go to the mall, and some folks can have a good time walking around the mall without spending any money at all.
BUT.
The mall is specifically engineered to make you spend money. Ads are strategically placed, the aroma of food wafts through the halls, tempting goods are displayed everywhere, and the dry air can make you really want to buy a drink. So whether you spend money or not, your experience will always be influenced by the fact that the whole mall is designed to make people spend money. Personally, I would rather not deal with this all the time.
Now on the other hand a P2P game is more like a country club. You pay your membership dues sure, but once you do that you're done. The club is not designed to make people spend more money, it's just designed to offer people a good time so they keep paying their dues.
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
Except that country clubs also have cafeterias and pro shops, trainers and coaches, carts to rent, clothing... and further more most country clubs have those shops, trainers, coaches, carts, clothing and a membership fee and you still pay monthly dues. hmmm
Venge
I was talking about the mall comparison...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
@ VirusDancer: I really don't know what your trying to get at. Please don't think I attacked City of...not my thing. I did not have a "problem" except I didn't find the value in the game as much as you did. Since '04 I could not tell you how many games, betas, alphas and releases I've been through, some free, some not. I look for the value in games, if it doesn't have the longevity I'm looking for, then I will not pay for the time to play as you did earning, grinding, trading, or get as a reward just for sticking around long enough. That all costs money out of pocket unless you played City for free. I played EVE for 2 years on and off, that was value to me and some months I played for free on 2 accounts. But then again, I loved the game enough to put the time in to afford it. IMO: City of has one of if not the best RP crowds among MMOs.
@ Pingmeister: I agree with you. I am also a big fan of the eastern model, which are the origins of free to play. One game that I really liked as a F2P (FTT) was Atlantica Online. Great game and I didn't have to shell out 1 cent until I got into the higher levels and then that was just for convienience anyway. However, there are a ton of ways to pay to win in that game now. I revisited it recently and was inclined to buy some characters. But then again, it comes down to value. Do I really need that vampire? No. Ok then, moving along.
@ Vengesunset: Your right, I haven't played the new FE in awhile. I was in the closed to open betas into release. I left because quiet franlky, it was buggy. I only did return after winning a free copy of the client. I played it for a month and found that the depth of the game was lacking along with a dwindling population. If you can play that game for completely free without buying anything, that would be something to hold in your HD if you want to tool around something new and get tired of swording, boarding or spaceships.
I really appreciate the comment and the conversation. Keep in mind, my experience I am having with a game is not the same as your experience. Everyone is different and looking for different things. I am a strange duck when it comes to MMO's. I tend to experiment among many different games, I actually craft in beta and sell things on the market, join weird guilds and level slower than most. I am wayyyy of the beaten path.
If you want to try something and get a reasonable amount of play out of it, I would suggest Ryzom. Because you can get a decent level, think its 125 in all skills, before having to kick in. It doesn't shove a cash shop in your face, no pay walls and it does have a decent population.
Also, you can get Final Fantasy XI for really, really cheap nowadays. I saw the total package with all expansions for $5 at a local store. Try it for a month with no cash, shops, $12 fee and the Abyssea expansions are now just 20 bucks US. There is sooooo much content there before even having to look into Abyss. However, a bit grindy and the economy struggles because not many players do the older content. But it is more solo, dou and trio friendly now. I had great "holy trinity" parties as a NIN.
Instead of going around in circles arguing about if F2P games are really free or not, let me try a different angle.
I see F2P games kind of like...going to the mall. Much like an F2P game, it's absolutely free to go to the mall, and some folks can have a good time walking around the mall without spending any money at all.
BUT.
The mall is specifically engineered to make you spend money. Ads are strategically placed, the aroma of food wafts through the halls, tempting goods are displayed everywhere, and the dry air can make you really want to buy a drink. So whether you spend money or not, your experience will always be influenced by the fact that the whole mall is designed to make people spend money. Personally, I would rather not deal with this all the time.
Now on the other hand a P2P game is more like a country club. You pay your membership dues sure, but once you do that you're done. The club is not designed to make people spend more money, it's just designed to offer people a good time so they keep paying their dues.
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
Except that country clubs also have cafeterias and pro shops, trainers and coaches, carts to rent, clothing... and further more most country clubs have those shops, trainers, coaches, carts, clothing and a membership fee and you still pay monthly dues. hmmm
Venge
I was talking about the mall comparison...
Yes, my post was just directed at the club thingy.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
@ VirusDancer: I really don't know what your trying to get at. Please don't think I attacked City of...not my thing. I did not have a "problem" except I didn't find the value in the game as much as you did. Since '04 I could not tell you how many games, betas, alphas and releases I've been through, some free, some not. I look for the value in games, if it doesn't have the longevity I'm looking for, then I will not pay for the time to play as you did earning, grinding, trading, or get as a reward just for sticking around long enough. That all costs money out of pocket unless you played City for free. I played EVE for 2 years on and off, that was value to me and some months I played for free on 2 accounts. But then again, I loved the game enough to put the time in to afford it. IMO: City of has one of if not the best RP crowds among MMOs.
Did not think you were attacking in the least. Would have to look back to see if my post came off that way, but it definitely was not my intent.
Thought I had just said there were other options for the Demon thing (both involving having spent more money or spending more money - all four options requiring money (future or past)).
I've said in a few threads, that there is a world of difference in CoX's Freedom model between being a Free Player, VIP, and then all the different kind of Premium players. Having all the stuff I did - I kind of felt guilty for playing, because outside of missing IOs and Incarnate - heh, I could have easily played for free without issue - since I had most of the things that people just starting out the game would have had to buy. I installed the game for the gf, and man - her options - her game - a complete world of difference.
I could not see playing as free in that game - but - perhaps that is because I had so much stuff already and knew what was there. Kind of like folks joking about IOs - if people never used them, they're not missing anything by not having them. For those that did have them, well - you can get seven months of IOs for the price of a single month of VIP...heh.
My apologies if my reply to you seemed like I had taken issue with what you had said.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
Then don't play F2P games. Problem solved. Sitting around whining about it doesn't change a thing.
Soon there may not such a choice, all games will likely have a hybrid payment model of some sort.
Whininig about it might change some folks mind in the long term....
Like it or not, the world moves on and you can either go along with it or you can find something else to do. Whining about it hasn't changed game communities, it hasn't made more people want to group, it hasn't done a thing to change the MMO world, especially since most whining is done on forums like this where only a minuscule number of people ever see it and developers largely ignore it.
The P2P model lasted a long time, but it turns out there might not be enough money in it for much longer. Therefore, the F2P model is being tried. If that fails, who knows, maybe there will just be no more MMOs at all. Would that make you happier?
Instead of going around in circles arguing about if F2P games are really free or not, let me try a different angle.
I see F2P games kind of like...going to the mall. Much like an F2P game, it's absolutely free to go to the mall, and some folks can have a good time walking around the mall without spending any money at all.
BUT.
The mall is specifically engineered to make you spend money. Ads are strategically placed, the aroma of food wafts through the halls, tempting goods are displayed everywhere, and the dry air can make you really want to buy a drink. So whether you spend money or not, your experience will always be influenced by the fact that the whole mall is designed to make people spend money. Personally, I would rather not deal with this all the time.
Now on the other hand a P2P game is more like a country club. You pay your membership dues sure, but once you do that you're done. The club is not designed to make people spend more money, it's just designed to offer people a good time so they keep paying their dues.
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
Except that country clubs also have cafeterias and pro shops, trainers and coaches, carts to rent, clothing... and further more most country clubs have those shops, trainers, coaches, carts, clothing and a membership fee and you still pay monthly dues, and some still have course fees/booking fees. hmmm
Venge
So sue me, the analogy isn't 100% perfect .
It doesn't change the argument though. There are still P2P games that are pretty much "pure" P2P just with expansions and maybe out of game services like char transfers.
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
No they don't. They get slightly faster xp and slightly faster crafting. I still get all the skills, levels, abilities, and traininng points as they do. At end game we have the same points to use how we choose, we have the same recipes to craft as we see fit, no difference. In PVP or PVE I am just as competitive. There is no competitive advantage to buying anything from the cs or using buying the accounts. The only reason for paying a subscription is to get again slightly faster xp, and slightly faster crafting. Nothing else.
There is no advantage.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Instead of going around in circles arguing about if F2P games are really free or not, let me try a different angle.
I see F2P games kind of like...going to the mall. Much like an F2P game, it's absolutely free to go to the mall, and some folks can have a good time walking around the mall without spending any money at all.
BUT.
The mall is specifically engineered to make you spend money. Ads are strategically placed, the aroma of food wafts through the halls, tempting goods are displayed everywhere, and the dry air can make you really want to buy a drink. So whether you spend money or not, your experience will always be influenced by the fact that the whole mall is designed to make people spend money. Personally, I would rather not deal with this all the time.
Now on the other hand a P2P game is more like a country club. You pay your membership dues sure, but once you do that you're done. The club is not designed to make people spend more money, it's just designed to offer people a good time so they keep paying their dues.
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
Except that country clubs also have cafeterias and pro shops, trainers and coaches, carts to rent, clothing... and further more most country clubs have those shops, trainers, coaches, carts, clothing and a membership fee and you still pay monthly dues, and some still have course fees/booking fees. hmmm
Venge
So sue me, the analogy isn't 100% perfect .
It doesn't change the argument though. There are still P2P games that are pretty much "pure" P2P just with expansions and maybe out of game services like char transfers.
Well since some games give expansions for free, how can use there are pure p2p just with expansions and out of game services?
All that tells me is you have gotten used to paid expansion and out of game services and so accept it. If games started off giving expansions for free, would you accept it now?
Venge
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
No they don't. They get slightly faster xp and slightly faster crafting. I still get all the skills, levels, abilities, and traininng points as they do. At end game we have the same points to use how we choose, we have the same recipes to craft as we see fit, no difference. In PVP or PVE I am just as competitive. There is no competitive advantage to buying anything from the cs or using buying the accounts. The only reason for paying a subscription is to get again slightly faster xp, and slightly faster crafting. Nothing else.
There is no advantage.
If you start off by stating there is an advantage, you cannot end by stating there is not an advantage...
...just saying.
An advantage is an advantage.
With FE, it's even a case that the Scavenger is penalized - not just that the tiered subs get those advantages. You're actually penalized. The Scavenger is not 100% and the tiered subs are above 100%. The Scavenger is penalized.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
No they don't. They get slightly faster xp and slightly faster crafting. I still get all the skills, levels, abilities, and traininng points as they do. At end game we have the same points to use how we choose, we have the same recipes to craft as we see fit, no difference. In PVP or PVE I am just as competitive. There is no competitive advantage to buying anything from the cs or using buying the accounts. The only reason for paying a subscription is to get again slightly faster xp, and slightly faster crafting. Nothing else.
There is no advantage.
If you start off by stating there is an advantage, you cannot end by stating there is not an advantage...
...just saying.
An advantage is an advantage.
With FE, it's even a case that the Scavenger is penalized - not just that the tiered subs get those advantages. You're actually penalized. The Scavenger is not 100% and the tiered subs are above 100%. The Scavenger is penalized.
I didn't start off saying they have an advantage. I believe I said ' no they don't"
The things they do offer do not give an advantage. I get everything, all abilities, levels skills, I am just as competitive in PVE, PVP, we get the same number of points, the same recipes, the same mutations and skills. There is no advantage.
Of course you may think slightly faster xp and crafting is but in reality there is no differnce. The difference in xp is not noticeable and craftingis done offline. There is no advantage.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Instead of going around in circles arguing about if F2P games are really free or not, let me try a different angle.
I see F2P games kind of like...going to the mall. Much like an F2P game, it's absolutely free to go to the mall, and some folks can have a good time walking around the mall without spending any money at all.
BUT.
The mall is specifically engineered to make you spend money. Ads are strategically placed, the aroma of food wafts through the halls, tempting goods are displayed everywhere, and the dry air can make you really want to buy a drink. So whether you spend money or not, your experience will always be influenced by the fact that the whole mall is designed to make people spend money. Personally, I would rather not deal with this all the time.
Now on the other hand a P2P game is more like a country club. You pay your membership dues sure, but once you do that you're done. The club is not designed to make people spend more money, it's just designed to offer people a good time so they keep paying their dues.
And this is really my main problem with F2P. I don't want my shopping experience to "begin" when I play the game. I want to have just bought the game and then be able to enjoy it without having to be constantly irritated with incentives to spend more money.
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
Except that country clubs also have cafeterias and pro shops, trainers and coaches, carts to rent, clothing... and further more most country clubs have those shops, trainers, coaches, carts, clothing and a membership fee and you still pay monthly dues, and some still have course fees/booking fees. hmmm
Venge
So sue me, the analogy isn't 100% perfect .
It doesn't change the argument though. There are still P2P games that are pretty much "pure" P2P just with expansions and maybe out of game services like char transfers.
Well since some games give expansions for free, how can use there are pure p2p just with expansions and out of game services?
All that tells me is you have gotten used to paid expansion and out of game services and so accept it. If games started off giving expansions for free, would you accept it now?
Venge
You buy the original game and pay for the privilege of paying it...that's P2P.
If the company decides to develop more content a year or two later and sell that...then that's okay too. Games have been selling expansion packs for years, it's not a new concept.
My problem with F2P is more about buying virtual goods or other advantages in game. I don't really have an issue with buying access to new content, like an expansion pack or DLC, provided it is reasonably priced.
The key difference between these two is that in the case of buying the game or expansions you are directly paying for work that the developers did, all the players have an equal opportunity to succeed regardless of what they paid, and there is a "price cieling" on what you have to pay to get access to the whole game.
With F2P, you are paying for imaginary goods with completely arbitrary values, players that pay more generally have an advantage, and there is no real price cieling on what you have to pay to get access to everything. And also, the players that want to pay to get all the content will probably wind up paying MORE than they would have in a P2P game just to subsidize the free players' experience.
Anyway, I don't think P2P is perfect, there are definitely problems with it. Such as the fact that the companies don't really need to make the players pay a sub fee to turn a profit. But you know what? I hate it a lot less than the F2P model.
In the end, I think F2P is great for people that can't afford to buy a bunch of games and have a lot of time than money. Like I said before, I probably would have liked F2P when I was a college student. But it's terrible for people that have more money than time and can easily afford to buy any game they want to play. It just means you're going to be paying more than you were before for the same crap.
You keep stating that you are paying more for the same crap. We're not. That is just bad design. There are more than enough games on the market now with good game design. You can pay as much as you want or nothing. And most pay nothing and remain competitive.
Bad f2p will give an advantage. However that is not all f2p, there are more than enough games now. We cannot state anymore that f2p is bad.
Venge
edit- I'm on of those people with more money than time now. I work 60-80 hours and study (course alot of my study is work too) and I get paid a decent amount.
f2p or p2p it doesn't matter. If it's a good game people will play it. You don't have to pay more or pay less.
I play EQ, CoH, FE, VG and Istaria. 3 of those are p2p, 2 are f2p now.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
No they don't. They get slightly faster xp and slightly faster crafting. I still get all the skills, levels, abilities, and traininng points as they do. At end game we have the same points to use how we choose, we have the same recipes to craft as we see fit, no difference. In PVP or PVE I am just as competitive. There is no competitive advantage to buying anything from the cs or using buying the accounts. The only reason for paying a subscription is to get again slightly faster xp, and slightly faster crafting. Nothing else.
There is no advantage.
If you start off by stating there is an advantage, you cannot end by stating there is not an advantage...
...just saying.
An advantage is an advantage.
With FE, it's even a case that the Scavenger is penalized - not just that the tiered subs get those advantages. You're actually penalized. The Scavenger is not 100% and the tiered subs are above 100%. The Scavenger is penalized.
I didn't start off saying they have an advantage. I believe I said ' no they don't"
The things they do offer do not give an advantage. I get everything, all abilities, levels skills, I am just as competitive in PVE, PVP, we get the same number of points, the same recipes, the same mutations and skills. There is no advantage.
Of course you may think slightly faster xp and crafting is but in reality there is no differnce. The difference in xp is not noticeable and craftingis done offline. There is no advantage.
Unlimited chips.
+16 hours a day crafting.
Supporter gift.
Customer support.
Global chat.
+50 reward points a month.
+5% market discount.
+20% crafting speed.
+20% harvesting/salvaging speed.
+25% experience.
+25% random AP gain.
+25% death toll gain.
+25% faction gain.
That is what you get by going from Scavenger to Survivalist... from $0.00 to $9.99 a month.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
No they don't. They get slightly faster xp and slightly faster crafting. I still get all the skills, levels, abilities, and traininng points as they do. At end game we have the same points to use how we choose, we have the same recipes to craft as we see fit, no difference. In PVP or PVE I am just as competitive. There is no competitive advantage to buying anything from the cs or using buying the accounts. The only reason for paying a subscription is to get again slightly faster xp, and slightly faster crafting. Nothing else.
There is no advantage.
If you start off by stating there is an advantage, you cannot end by stating there is not an advantage...
...just saying.
An advantage is an advantage.
With FE, it's even a case that the Scavenger is penalized - not just that the tiered subs get those advantages. You're actually penalized. The Scavenger is not 100% and the tiered subs are above 100%. The Scavenger is penalized.
I didn't start off saying they have an advantage. I believe I said ' no they don't"
The things they do offer do not give an advantage. I get everything, all abilities, levels skills, I am just as competitive in PVE, PVP, we get the same number of points, the same recipes, the same mutations and skills. There is no advantage.
Of course you may think slightly faster xp and crafting is but in reality there is no differnce. The difference in xp is not noticeable and craftingis done offline. There is no advantage.
Unlimited chips.
+16 hours a day crafting.
Supporter gift.
Customer support.
Global chat.
+50 reward points a month.
+5% market discount.
+20% crafting speed.
+20% harvesting/salvaging speed.
+25% experience.
+25% random AP gain.
+25% death toll gain.
+25% faction gain.
That is what you get by going from Scavenger to Survivalist... from $0.00 to $9.99 a month.
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
No they don't. They get slightly faster xp and slightly faster crafting. I still get all the skills, levels, abilities, and traininng points as they do. At end game we have the same points to use how we choose, we have the same recipes to craft as we see fit, no difference. In PVP or PVE I am just as competitive. There is no competitive advantage to buying anything from the cs or using buying the accounts. The only reason for paying a subscription is to get again slightly faster xp, and slightly faster crafting. Nothing else.
There is no advantage.
If you start off by stating there is an advantage, you cannot end by stating there is not an advantage...
...just saying.
An advantage is an advantage.
With FE, it's even a case that the Scavenger is penalized - not just that the tiered subs get those advantages. You're actually penalized. The Scavenger is not 100% and the tiered subs are above 100%. The Scavenger is penalized.
I didn't start off saying they have an advantage. I believe I said ' no they don't"
The things they do offer do not give an advantage. I get everything, all abilities, levels skills, I am just as competitive in PVE, PVP, we get the same number of points, the same recipes, the same mutations and skills. There is no advantage.
Of course you may think slightly faster xp and crafting is but in reality there is no differnce. The difference in xp is not noticeable and craftingis done offline. There is no advantage.
Unlimited chips.
+16 hours a day crafting.
Supporter gift.
Customer support.
Global chat.
+50 reward points a month.
+5% market discount.
+20% crafting speed.
+20% harvesting/salvaging speed.
+25% experience.
+25% random AP gain.
+25% death toll gain.
+25% faction gain.
That is what you get by going from Scavenger to Survivalist... from $0.00 to $9.99 a month.
Thats right and none offer an advantage and some aren't even true.
I can craft everything - I don't need more any coin at all - let alone 10 red chips. So not an advantage.
I can craft 8 hours a day - 8 fricking hoursn and it's offline so I can still play as much as I want. So not an advantage.
The gift doesn't give any advantage
I do get customer support actually - ast least in game. GM helped me out yesterday when my character was stuck.
I do get global chat. The Help channel is the global chat.
Crafting speed is not noticeable - it's offline. So not an advantage.
Harvesting/salvaging takes 6 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds.. So not an advantage.
The Random AP gain is... random - comes at any time. However by max level I will have ~1960 points. Someone with a subscription will have ~1960 points. . So not an advantage.
Death tolll is virtually non existant. I've died countless times, there is almost no toll and the minor bit of dmg I can repair becasue I can craft everything.. So not an advantage.
Faction doesn't mean anything anymore because there are no AP points associated with it. . So not an advantage.
So once again, everything you have pointed out looks interesting on paper. But in the game there is no advantage.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Comments
I think you touched on an important point here, but I don't necessarily agree with your characterization of F2P gamers as "game hoppers."
Anyway, the point you touched on is that players who play F2P games for free are essentially subsidized (paid for) by the players who pay. So, assuming that the entire industry does eventually adopt the F2P model as some state, this means that the players who pay very likely spend MORE than they would have if the game had been B2P. This basically has to be true in order for the F2P game to be profitable. SOMEONE has to make up for the money that the company isn't making on "free" players.
So who are these folks who are paying in the F2P games? Well, they are probably people that are really into the game but don't have too much free time. They very likely work and have a good deal of disposable income. Crap, that sounds a whole lot like me!
So to me, F2P means that I "get" to pay MORE so that younger folks who don't have as much disposable income can play for free. Not very appealing. I would prefer that I just pay $60 and have the game and maybe a sub and have everything in the game.
I think that if F2P got big while I was in school or college I would have been a lot more for it because it would benefit me at the cost of others. Now it costs me at the benefit of others.
Another reason I don't like the F2P model (or microtransaction abuse in general) is that there is no "cieling" on what you have to spend. In a (purely) B2P or P2P game, you buy the box, pay the sub, and that's it. You have everything the game can offer for $110 + $15 a month or something.
But in an F2P game? Buying everything the game has to offer can be ridiculously priced sometimes, like $1000 or more! I don't like having to pick and choose what I want, and I don't like being taken advantage of just because I have the ability to pay more.
Once again, this is assuming that F2P becomes the "dominant" business model, so please don't use the argument of "just don't play it."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
F2P existed before P2P, but it is making a comeback because most P2P titles do not deliver the $15 dollar per month fee in content. Furthermore, I do not see people that prefer F2P games as casual as there has been an enormous shift. Lineage 2 will be free to play very soon in NA, but by no means that game can be considered casual.
To an extent, I suppose the thing that disgusts me the most about the F2P model is actually the players that play for free. Yes, a big deal is made of the deceptive practices of the game company - but little attention is given to the deceptive practices of the player.
A person produces a piece of work - movie, book, song, game, etc. They sell that product. If somebody does not pay for the product, but otherwise gains access to it - it is considered stealing. Whether it is a case of shoplifting, pirating, or downloading - it is still stealing.
But you can't steal something that somebody is giving away...no you can't. So what's the point?
If everybody played the game for free - what would happen to the game? It would shutdown. No revenue. No profit. No way to pay expenses. They're hoping that you enjoy the game and make purchases from the cash shop or you subscribe.
Many people have stated that they enjoy the game - but they do not spend a dime. It is not a case they cannot afford to spend that time. It is not a case they are not enjoying the game so they should not spend the dime. Much like them pirating a movie, book, song, or game - they are enjoying the work of the artist/developer, without rewarding or supporting them.
Not only are they stealing from the developer by not using the cash shop or possibly subscribing - but they are also stealing from the other players that do use the cash shop or subscribe to the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I would call the model that they like to call "Free to play" by its real name: Free to try or Freemium.
To download and install the client is usually free unless its a Guild Wars type model, by the client and that's it. You can also play the game albeit long enough to know if you like it or not. How long it takes me to find out if I like the game? A few hours at most. I am either going to love it, hate it or be lukewarm. I can play a lukewarm game if it doesn't cost me anything. I uninstall a game I hate, and I have hated a few. And a game I love I usually find out exactly what I need to spend to have a halfway decent experience.
See, that is where the westernized F2P or FTT or Freemium models kick me in the butt. Let's use City of Heroes as an example.
I have a L42 Demon summoning mastermind. In order for me to play that character I have to either sub (see what I did there?) for a "VIP Membership" or buy the class and the ability to summon demons separately. Either/OR cost around that magic $15 number. That irked me to no end. But I could play my slayer sub for free as long as I wanted. Where I was also constricted was in the market. I could only auction off a certain amount of items unless I (guess what) subbed to VIP Membership for the magical $15 number.
My answer to that: Uninstall. I don't hate the game, just don't love it enough to drop $15 on it.
Now if I was a new player, that would be a great idea. I can make a toon, test it out for a few days, maybe even a week or so until it came time to VIP or not. That's worth it to me, but as an established player it was not. I know City of... I got to 42 inside a free month and I bought the game for under $18 on steam. That's a deal to me, because I got 1 month of untethered play, no cash shops in my face or restrictions.
For a lukewarmy game like that, I would rather pay $15-20 straight out, play a month and if I don't love it, not sub again, at least they get that out of me.
I did not have the issues with Freedom that you did. I had played the game off and on since beta back in '04. I had over three years of Vet rewards, had bought the various xpacs, most of the boosters, etc. I was basically missing IOs, Incarnate, SSAs, and...well - any of the new powersets/costume pieces.
As for your Demon Summoning - those were two of the options. In my case, I already had enough Reward Tokens in place from previously supporting the game - so it was already unlocked. The fourth option would have been buying your way up to that tier.
For me though, I realized that I was not going to be buying anything from the cash shop nor was I going to be subscribing. It was nice to be able to go back and try the game again, but I was not going to hang around if I was not paying for it - even though, I had paid for much of it in the past.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
They are definitely trying a lot of variations on the F2P model on the Western side of things.
I am a longtime customer of the "Eastern" method: Play any class, any zone you want. Buy costumes, potions, XP hasteners and tools to make upgrades more succesful. I am currently playing Zentia in that way and love it. It's a classic F2P system which I gladly paid into.
I have yet to find a Western system that works for me. Just can't stand the idea that the world is "locked" behind pay walls. That I have to worry whether a friend has purchased the content I want to play.
In the Eastern F2P system you never have to worry about that. Perhaps their Hammer is only +6 instead of +8 or their Armor doesn't have +5 resistance to Earth spells but otherwise they're going wherever they want to, fighting together.
Fallen earth. No part of the world is locked behind paid walls, there aren't even better weapons/mounts... that you can pay for. Buying things don't really give any advantage at all.
Venge
Paying for Survivalist gives an advantage over Scavenger.
Paying for Wastelander gives an advantage over Survivalist and Scavenger.
Paying for Commander gives an advantage over Wastelander, Survivalist, and Scavenger.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
HAHA, I was so going to say this in my post but I held back because of the forum analogy run-around that always comes from such an example given. But I do look at it pretty much in this manner.
I do agree as I also prefer to spend my money upfront, or on a flat sub that offers everything. But we know what the problem is there with most MMO's available today.
Anyway kudos for basically reading my mind lol.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Except that country clubs also have cafeterias and pro shops, trainers and coaches, carts to rent, clothing... and further more most country clubs have those shops, trainers, coaches, carts, clothing and a membership fee and you still pay monthly dues, and some still have course fees/booking fees. hmmm
Venge
I was talking about the mall comparison...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
@ VirusDancer: I really don't know what your trying to get at. Please don't think I attacked City of...not my thing. I did not have a "problem" except I didn't find the value in the game as much as you did. Since '04 I could not tell you how many games, betas, alphas and releases I've been through, some free, some not. I look for the value in games, if it doesn't have the longevity I'm looking for, then I will not pay for the time to play as you did earning, grinding, trading, or get as a reward just for sticking around long enough. That all costs money out of pocket unless you played City for free. I played EVE for 2 years on and off, that was value to me and some months I played for free on 2 accounts. But then again, I loved the game enough to put the time in to afford it. IMO: City of has one of if not the best RP crowds among MMOs.
@ Pingmeister: I agree with you. I am also a big fan of the eastern model, which are the origins of free to play. One game that I really liked as a F2P (FTT) was Atlantica Online. Great game and I didn't have to shell out 1 cent until I got into the higher levels and then that was just for convienience anyway. However, there are a ton of ways to pay to win in that game now. I revisited it recently and was inclined to buy some characters. But then again, it comes down to value. Do I really need that vampire? No. Ok then, moving along.
@ Vengesunset: Your right, I haven't played the new FE in awhile. I was in the closed to open betas into release. I left because quiet franlky, it was buggy. I only did return after winning a free copy of the client. I played it for a month and found that the depth of the game was lacking along with a dwindling population. If you can play that game for completely free without buying anything, that would be something to hold in your HD if you want to tool around something new and get tired of swording, boarding or spaceships.
I really appreciate the comment and the conversation. Keep in mind, my experience I am having with a game is not the same as your experience. Everyone is different and looking for different things. I am a strange duck when it comes to MMO's. I tend to experiment among many different games, I actually craft in beta and sell things on the market, join weird guilds and level slower than most. I am wayyyy of the beaten path.
If you want to try something and get a reasonable amount of play out of it, I would suggest Ryzom. Because you can get a decent level, think its 125 in all skills, before having to kick in. It doesn't shove a cash shop in your face, no pay walls and it does have a decent population.
Also, you can get Final Fantasy XI for really, really cheap nowadays. I saw the total package with all expansions for $5 at a local store. Try it for a month with no cash, shops, $12 fee and the Abyssea expansions are now just 20 bucks US. There is sooooo much content there before even having to look into Abyss. However, a bit grindy and the economy struggles because not many players do the older content. But it is more solo, dou and trio friendly now. I had great "holy trinity" parties as a NIN.
Yes, my post was just directed at the club thingy.
Did not think you were attacking in the least. Would have to look back to see if my post came off that way, but it definitely was not my intent.
Thought I had just said there were other options for the Demon thing (both involving having spent more money or spending more money - all four options requiring money (future or past)).
I've said in a few threads, that there is a world of difference in CoX's Freedom model between being a Free Player, VIP, and then all the different kind of Premium players. Having all the stuff I did - I kind of felt guilty for playing, because outside of missing IOs and Incarnate - heh, I could have easily played for free without issue - since I had most of the things that people just starting out the game would have had to buy. I installed the game for the gf, and man - her options - her game - a complete world of difference.
I could not see playing as free in that game - but - perhaps that is because I had so much stuff already and knew what was there. Kind of like folks joking about IOs - if people never used them, they're not missing anything by not having them. For those that did have them, well - you can get seven months of IOs for the price of a single month of VIP...heh.
My apologies if my reply to you seemed like I had taken issue with what you had said.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Like it or not, the world moves on and you can either go along with it or you can find something else to do. Whining about it hasn't changed game communities, it hasn't made more people want to group, it hasn't done a thing to change the MMO world, especially since most whining is done on forums like this where only a minuscule number of people ever see it and developers largely ignore it.
The P2P model lasted a long time, but it turns out there might not be enough money in it for much longer. Therefore, the F2P model is being tried. If that fails, who knows, maybe there will just be no more MMOs at all. Would that make you happier?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
So sue me, the analogy isn't 100% perfect
.
It doesn't change the argument though. There are still P2P games that are pretty much "pure" P2P just with expansions and maybe out of game services like char transfers.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
No they don't. They get slightly faster xp and slightly faster crafting. I still get all the skills, levels, abilities, and traininng points as they do. At end game we have the same points to use how we choose, we have the same recipes to craft as we see fit, no difference. In PVP or PVE I am just as competitive. There is no competitive advantage to buying anything from the cs or using buying the accounts. The only reason for paying a subscription is to get again slightly faster xp, and slightly faster crafting. Nothing else.
There is no advantage.
Well since some games give expansions for free, how can use there are pure p2p just with expansions and out of game services?
All that tells me is you have gotten used to paid expansion and out of game services and so accept it. If games started off giving expansions for free, would you accept it now?
Venge
If you start off by stating there is an advantage, you cannot end by stating there is not an advantage...
...just saying.
An advantage is an advantage.
With FE, it's even a case that the Scavenger is penalized - not just that the tiered subs get those advantages. You're actually penalized. The Scavenger is not 100% and the tiered subs are above 100%. The Scavenger is penalized.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I didn't start off saying they have an advantage. I believe I said ' no they don't"
The things they do offer do not give an advantage. I get everything, all abilities, levels skills, I am just as competitive in PVE, PVP, we get the same number of points, the same recipes, the same mutations and skills. There is no advantage.
Of course you may think slightly faster xp and crafting is but in reality there is no differnce. The difference in xp is not noticeable and craftingis done offline. There is no advantage.
You buy the original game and pay for the privilege of paying it...that's P2P.
If the company decides to develop more content a year or two later and sell that...then that's okay too. Games have been selling expansion packs for years, it's not a new concept.
My problem with F2P is more about buying virtual goods or other advantages in game. I don't really have an issue with buying access to new content, like an expansion pack or DLC, provided it is reasonably priced.
The key difference between these two is that in the case of buying the game or expansions you are directly paying for work that the developers did, all the players have an equal opportunity to succeed regardless of what they paid, and there is a "price cieling" on what you have to pay to get access to the whole game.
With F2P, you are paying for imaginary goods with completely arbitrary values, players that pay more generally have an advantage, and there is no real price cieling on what you have to pay to get access to everything. And also, the players that want to pay to get all the content will probably wind up paying MORE than they would have in a P2P game just to subsidize the free players' experience.
Anyway, I don't think P2P is perfect, there are definitely problems with it. Such as the fact that the companies don't really need to make the players pay a sub fee to turn a profit. But you know what? I hate it a lot less than the F2P model.
In the end, I think F2P is great for people that can't afford to buy a bunch of games and have a lot of time than money. Like I said before, I probably would have liked F2P when I was a college student. But it's terrible for people that have more money than time and can easily afford to buy any game they want to play. It just means you're going to be paying more than you were before for the same crap.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
You keep stating that you are paying more for the same crap. We're not. That is just bad design. There are more than enough games on the market now with good game design. You can pay as much as you want or nothing. And most pay nothing and remain competitive.
Bad f2p will give an advantage. However that is not all f2p, there are more than enough games now. We cannot state anymore that f2p is bad.
Venge
edit- I'm on of those people with more money than time now. I work 60-80 hours and study (course alot of my study is work too) and I get paid a decent amount.
f2p or p2p it doesn't matter. If it's a good game people will play it. You don't have to pay more or pay less.
I play EQ, CoH, FE, VG and Istaria. 3 of those are p2p, 2 are f2p now.
Unlimited chips.
+16 hours a day crafting.
Supporter gift.
Customer support.
Global chat.
+50 reward points a month.
+5% market discount.
+20% crafting speed.
+20% harvesting/salvaging speed.
+25% experience.
+25% random AP gain.
+25% death toll gain.
+25% faction gain.
That is what you get by going from Scavenger to Survivalist... from $0.00 to $9.99 a month.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
That looks like an advantage to me!
Thats right and none offer an advantage and some aren't even true.
I can craft everything - I don't need more any coin at all - let alone 10 red chips. So not an advantage.
I can craft 8 hours a day - 8 fricking hoursn and it's offline so I can still play as much as I want. So not an advantage.
The gift doesn't give any advantage
I do get customer support actually - ast least in game. GM helped me out yesterday when my character was stuck.
I do get global chat. The Help channel is the global chat.
Crafting speed is not noticeable - it's offline. So not an advantage.
Harvesting/salvaging takes 6 seconds as opposed to 5 seconds.. So not an advantage.
The Random AP gain is... random - comes at any time. However by max level I will have ~1960 points. Someone with a subscription will have ~1960 points. . So not an advantage.
Death tolll is virtually non existant. I've died countless times, there is almost no toll and the minor bit of dmg I can repair becasue I can craft everything.. So not an advantage.
Faction doesn't mean anything anymore because there are no AP points associated with it. . So not an advantage.
So once again, everything you have pointed out looks interesting on paper. But in the game there is no advantage.