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Does TOR have a major flaw like past MMO's on release that will stop it from holding subs long term?

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  • uohaloranuohaloran Member Posts: 811

    There aren't many things that players can do to create enjoyment themselves.  It rests almost entirely upon the developers to churn out content that will be devoured near instantly.

    So yeah, it does have that problem in my eyes.

  • LoekiiLoekii Member Posts: 430

    Originally posted by Robsolf

    There is an overlap... SORTA...

    There are pretty significant amounts of bonus missions on many planets.  Now, I'm not talking about "Kill X mob" bonus missions; rather, some planets have whole areas worth of bonus mission content.  On Taris, there is almost as much bonus mission zone area as there is in the story area.

    So basically, you could run one character from 1-50 without touching the bonus content, and then the next one doing all bonus content, and have a significantly different experience.

    Still, I do agree with you.  While the character stories do a pretty good job of mixing up the experience, (better than I'd expect if I hadn't played the game) the idea of rolling a Smuggler, then rolling a Trooper right afterward has little appeal to me.  I do plan on doing all the classes, but you can bet I'm gonna stagger them as best I can.

    On the OP... I don't think there will be any MAJOR flaws like those you mentioned.  What Cthulu mentions here could be a weak spot.  Also, I think the classes play more similar to each other than you see in most MMO's.  People that are all about the combat and don't care much about all the other stuff may get bored with this game quicker than others.  

    So how enjoyable would it be to say play a smuggler, but simply play the bonus content on the non-smuggler worlds?    Would the game make sense, and would playing the world quests on those worlds make up for the loss of the 'class story'?

     

    image

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,607

    Originally posted by Distaste

     

    Unless they changed the xp curve, possible since I didn't read all the more recent patch notes, the bonus quest hubs are all but required. You need to do a good bit of warzones, space missions, flashpoints, or heroics to make up for a bonus quest hub. The only two that are borderline not-required are the ones on Alderaan and Nar Shaddaa.

    Supposedly, they have, though I was playing higher level and couldn't really tell.  The release notes claimed it should be much easier to get to lvl 10 on the starter planets, now.  Supposedly the raised XP all across the board.

    My trooper levelled fairly evenly, having done only the starter world heroics, and only the Tatooinne bonus missions(edit:  aside from the standard world and story missions, I mean).  I did a significant amount of space missions, though.

  • RobsolfRobsolf Member RarePosts: 4,607

    Originally posted by Loekii

    So how enjoyable would it be to say play a smuggler, but simply play the bonus content on the non-smuggler worlds?    Would the game make sense, and would playing the world quests on those worlds make up for the loss of the 'class story'?

     

    World stories still have to be done, to my knowledge.  The bonus missions are usually picked up in the spaceport once you complete the world story; because narrative-wise, they are a continuation of the world story.  But doing them would easily replace side missions, bonus "kill X mob" missions and then some.  So if you prefer more of the world story, as opposed to being talked into finding "friendly Joe NPC's" Pazaak deck in a refugee home, it might be a better path than just going straight to the next planet.  Or, do half and half.

    Not sure what you mean by "non-smuggler" worlds.  You mean everything that's not Ord Mantell?  I think all classes visit all planets at some point, except the starter and home worlds.

  • SethiusXSethiusX Member Posts: 171

    Originally posted by NaughtyP

    The flaw to me is the static world that is so heavily asset-driven. Rolling out content will be nightmare imo. All the VO work, cutscene work, etcetera... I don't know if they will be able to keep up with the demand for more content fast enough.

    This could be true, but if Bioware is to be believed, they said in the recent interview that they have spent a good deal of dev time creating a toolset that allows them to rapidly create content including cinematics and VO. If they truly got their act together as much as they claim, content should roll out quick.

  • Entropy14Entropy14 Member UncommonPosts: 675

    Yes this MMO has one major flaw that might force you to quit, its an MMO, I found most MMO's that my friends did not play I quit right away, cause soloing got boring as hell.

     

    But then when I play with my friends and play in a group, wow the game is sooooo much more fun that way, hmmmmm, imagine that MMO's designed to be played by several people, who would of thunk

  • OcirusskdOcirusskd Member Posts: 212

    Originally posted by Entropy14

    Yes this MMO has one major flaw that might force you to quit, its an MMO, I found most MMO's that my friends did not play I quit right away, cause soloing got boring as hell.

     

    But then when I play with my friends and play in a group, wow the game is sooooo much more fun that way, hmmmmm, imagine that MMO's designed to be played by several people, who would of thunk

    it really is this simple, combat,graphics and hype all get people to play and level ,but what keeps players playing is ,friends, family, guilds, and toons that you have time and emotinal value.

    if someone leaves a game to play another game but his 3 friends stay in thier old game, most likley then the loner will end up going back to where his friends are. swtor sucess will be based on the ability for people to forge these realationship so most of thier friends play swtor instead of the other way around.

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Member Posts: 4,183

    Originally posted by Distaste

    Originally posted by Robsolf


    Originally posted by Cthulhu23

    Well, I wouldn't it has any major flaws currently, but some flaws that could turn into game-killers in terms of retention down the road.  My one major gripe with the game, as of now, is that aside from the first two planets, every class from either side has to take the same route to level cap.  There are no overlapping of planets during the leveling process, and I think this is something that BW is going to have to add in later.  

    I don't want BW to make the same horrible mistake Trion did and design ALL their patches to cater to the endgame players.  For a game so heavily invested in story, this would be a huge mistake, IMO.  I'd like to see BW open up some other planets or extra zones within the current planets in order to give players more options for where to level as they are rolling their second and third characters on the same side.  As of right now, that's really the only serious flaw in the game, and one that is easily fixed.  The other stuff is nickel-and-dime stuff, and not game-breaking.  

    There is an overlap... SORTA...

    There are pretty significant amounts of bonus missions on many planets.  Now, I'm not talking about "Kill X mob" bonus missions; rather, some planets have whole areas worth of bonus mission content.  On Taris, there is almost as much bonus mission zone area as there is in the story area.

    So basically, you could run one character from 1-50 without touching the bonus content, and then the next one doing all bonus content, and have a significantly different experience.

    Still, I do agree with you.  While the character stories do a pretty good job of mixing up the experience, (better than I'd expect if I hadn't played the game) the idea of rolling a Smuggler, then rolling a Trooper right afterward has little appeal to me.  I do plan on doing all the classes, but you can bet I'm gonna stagger them as best I can.

    On the OP... I don't think there will be any MAJOR flaws like those you mentioned.  What Cthulu mentions here could be a weak spot.  Also, I think the classes play more similar to each other than you see in most MMO's.  People that are all about the combat and don't care much about all the other stuff may get bored with this game quicker than others.  

    Unless they changed the xp curve, possible since I didn't read all the more recent patch notes, the bonus quest hubs are all but required. You need to do a good bit of warzones, space missions, flashpoints, or heroics to make up for a bonus quest hub. The only two that are borderline not-required are the ones on Alderaan and Nar Shaddaa.

    The've been messing around changing things. For example, the Nar Shadda bonus quests are now done at lvl 31+. They overlap with part of Alderaan and Taris now. You can totally skip them, or do them and skip something else.

     

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  • SethiusXSethiusX Member Posts: 171

    Originally posted by Entropy14

    Yes this MMO has one major flaw that might force you to quit, its an MMO, I found most MMO's that my friends did not play I quit right away, cause soloing got boring as hell.

     

    But then when I play with my friends and play in a group, wow the game is sooooo much more fun that way, hmmmmm, imagine that MMO's designed to be played by several people, who would of thunk

    Ya know, this is a good point a lot of people miss, I think. All the solo content in the world still doesn't make an MMO as fun solo as just playing a well developed solo game, because MMO mechanics are not as cool solo as solo game mechanics (due to various constraints).

    Play any MMO with a good group, and it will probably be fun. Play an awesome MMO with a good group, and you will likely be very addicted if you have a social personality (and if you don't have a social personality, why bother with MMO's in the first place?).

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Ocirusskd

    Originally posted by Entropy14
    Yes this MMO has one major flaw that might force you to quit, its an MMO, I found most MMO's that my friends did not play I quit right away, cause soloing got boring as hell.
     
    But then when I play with my friends and play in a group, wow the game is sooooo much more fun that way, hmmmmm, imagine that MMO's designed to be played by several people, who would of thunk
    it really is this simple, combat,graphics and hype all get people to play and level ,but what keeps players playing is ,friends, family, guilds, and toons that you have time and emotinal value.
    if someone leaves a game to play another game but his 3 friends stay in thier old game, most likley then the loner will end up going back to where his friends are. swtor sucess will be based on the ability for people to forge these realationship so most of thier friends play swtor instead of the other way around.



    Every MMO player I know, bar one is going to be playing SWToR. Bioware has hit the sweet spot in terms of time (now is a good time), quality (the game has good quality) and IP (Star Wars is a famous IP, even if you're not a 'fan').

    I don't think there are going to be many single players starting SWToR, and if there are, they won't be single players for too long.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Wharg0ulWharg0ul Member Posts: 4,183

    Originally posted by lizardbones

     




    Originally posted by Distaste





    Originally posted by Wharg0ul





    Originally posted by Distaste





    Originally posted by artemisentr4





    Originally posted by Wharg0ul





    Originally posted by SethiusX





    Originally posted by Cthulhu23





















    Just to reiterate, some of those planets you listed are the exact same level range.

    We're not talking about Act 1 planets here, which atm are rather linear, with the exception that you also have the option of returning to planets you have been to for higher level bonus quests.

    For example....one I've already used in fact....both Hoth and Quesh offer lvl 35+ quests.....the mobs are the same levels, the quests are the same levels.

    While leveling on Taris (31+35-ish) you might decide to go back to Nar Shaddaa for the bonus quests (31-34). Entirely optional. At level 40, you could also, if you chose, go back to Alderaan for the bonus quests there, should you feel like fighting antmen until you're ready to scream.

    Once again, this information will be public knowledge in a month or two, so I'll just let time take it from here.






    Quesh is a tiny planet and is not meant to level you the same level range that Hoth is. It is a 1 level planet that is maybe the size of korriban(2-3 small quest hubs). Go ahead and try to skip Hoth and do Quesh instead and then get back to me, because it simply won't happen. Unless Bioware has expanded Quesh by about 300% you are not going to get to the same levels gained as you would on Hoth, thus putting you behind on Belsavis.

    What happened was that people were basically required to do every single quest and even most of the heroics to stay on level for the planets. Bioware decided to change that a bit and used the bonus series of those planets as "catch-ups". The last time I leveled to 50 I did all quests on every single planet(heroics included up until the end of Hoth) that weren't broken, most of the bonus quest series on Nar Shaddaa and alderaan(ald heroics were way overtuned), and I hit 50 just before the last hub on correllia where you are supposed to hit 50.

    Just to clear this up. You're making the assertion that there are parrallel planets for leveling IE: Quesh instead of Hoth. This is not the case. While you might be able to get enough XP to skip a planet with warzones, space missions, etc, there are no parallel planets.








    If players have to do every single quest on every available planet to reach max level, then it is going to be a problem. Adding content immediately after release, unless that content is already available, tested and ready to go doesn't usually go well. It is one of the things that nearly killed* Champions Online. There needs to be enough content for players to feel like they're choosing their path, even if the only choice is to skip some quests.



    * Or killed it depending on how you look at it.

     

    You don't have to do every simgle quest on every planet. there is a lot of overlap between bonus quest lines and planets after Tatooine.

    A few builds ago you kinda had to do every quest you cane across, but Bioware's been fixing that, and adding overlapping areas.

    @Distaste: Not sure when you were last at Quesh and Hoth, but I was there just before the end of testing. I'm not saying that it's a good idea to skip the class quests on Hoth, but you could totally skip a lot of the more mundane faction and side quests via Quesh.

    image

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Member CommonPosts: 10,910


    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Originally posted by lizardbones
     


    Originally posted by Distaste



    Originally posted by Wharg0ul

    Just to reiterate, some of those planets you listed are the exact same level range.
    We're not talking about Act 1 planets here, which atm are rather linear, with the exception that you also have the option of returning to planets you have been to for higher level bonus quests.
    For example....one I've already used in fact....both Hoth and Quesh offer lvl 35+ quests.....the mobs are the same levels, the quests are the same levels.
    While leveling on Taris (31+35-ish) you might decide to go back to Nar Shaddaa for the bonus quests (31-34). Entirely optional. At level 40, you could also, if you chose, go back to Alderaan for the bonus quests there, should you feel like fighting antmen until you're ready to scream.
    Once again, this information will be public knowledge in a month or two, so I'll just let time take it from here.


    Quesh is a tiny planet and is not meant to level you the same level range that Hoth is. It is a 1 level planet that is maybe the size of korriban(2-3 small quest hubs). Go ahead and try to skip Hoth and do Quesh instead and then get back to me, because it simply won't happen. Unless Bioware has expanded Quesh by about 300% you are not going to get to the same levels gained as you would on Hoth, thus putting you behind on Belsavis.
    What happened was that people were basically required to do every single quest and even most of the heroics to stay on level for the planets. Bioware decided to change that a bit and used the bonus series of those planets as "catch-ups". The last time I leveled to 50 I did all quests on every single planet(heroics included up until the end of Hoth) that weren't broken, most of the bonus quest series on Nar Shaddaa and alderaan(ald heroics were way overtuned), and I hit 50 just before the last hub on correllia where you are supposed to hit 50.
    Just to clear this up. You're making the assertion that there are parrallel planets for leveling IE: Quesh instead of Hoth. This is not the case. While you might be able to get enough XP to skip a planet with warzones, space missions, etc, there are no parallel planets.





    If players have to do every single quest on every available planet to reach max level, then it is going to be a problem. Adding content immediately after release, unless that content is already available, tested and ready to go doesn't usually go well. It is one of the things that nearly killed* Champions Online. There needs to be enough content for players to feel like they're choosing their path, even if the only choice is to skip some quests.

    * Or killed it depending on how you look at it.

     


    You don't have to do every simgle quest on every planet. there is a lot of overlap between bonus quest lines and planets after Tatooine.
    A few builds ago you kinda had to do every quest you cane across, but Bioware's been fixing that, and adding overlapping areas.
    @Distaste: Not sure when you were last at Quesh and Hoth, but I was there just before the end of testing. I'm not saying that it's a good idea to skip the class quests on Hoth, but you could totally skip a lot of the more mundane faction and side quests via Quesh.



    That's certainly better than a couple MMOs in the past. I'd almost like to see it possible to reach max level doing just your story line and minimal side quests, but the story line would probably need to be expanded a bit with side quests and branching story bits and such. It wouldn't do to be trying to complete level 40 story line content at level 30. By the same token, it wouldn't do to be completing level 30 story line content at level 40 either. That's probably tricky to balance.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • DreycraftDreycraft Member UncommonPosts: 107

    Pretty good OP, I thought it was gonna be just another hate post by some douchebag who plays a competing mmorpg that feels threatened, so he runs around talkin smack, but it wasn't. You're experiences remind me a lot like mine. I've played WoW since it launched Nov. 24th 2004 only taking one 3 month break before WotLK released. I tried all the same MMOs also and had similar gripes with them though not exactly the same, I won't go into detail though. I have been following Star Wars: The Old Republic development since December 2008 and I pre-ordered the game the day they started taking pre-orders. I, like you have participated in 2 beta weekends, and that's all it took, I was absolutely blown away. Yes this game has many similarities to WoW, but I never once felt like I was playing a WoW clone with lightsabers as many people LOVE to say. It feels like I'm playing an awesome BioWare Star Wars mmorpg. The classes feel completely fresh, with amazingly fun combat, and great storytelling. This game really knows how to immerse you into the game world by eliminating the classic quest text boxes. I don't need to go into anymore detail here, but look, people really need to stop hating on this game and take a step back and see how much potential this game has. I just don't get it, I thought everyone loves BioWare and Star Wars? The ONLY reason I can think of is because they feel threatened and that's the bottom line. Sure this game has it's flaws although they are very few and NOWHERE NEAR game-breaking. This game has limitless potential, and having an elite game developer like BioWare, they will act on EVERY SINGLE ONE whether it's in the next few months with content patches or further down the road with expansions. Anyways, this game is the real deal whether you like it or not, so if for some reason you hate it and are sick enough to just want it to fail, you better be ready because it won't. People(not ALL, so don't mis-quote me) are sick and tired of high-fantasy mmorpgs with swords and magic and dragons and are looking for a fresh spin, and sci-fi is a great alternative, and not just sci-fi but Star Wars. Let's put it this way, I know 18 people who played WoW for as long as I did and they got to try at least one SW:TOR beta weekend and are ALL now leaving and coming to this game. Don't worry about it man, I had the same problem with those mmorpgs you listed as well, they're awesome games but they just couldn't hold me long term, you actually seem to like SW:TOR and I just think that it won't have that problem, I promise. 

  • SilverbranchSilverbranch Member UncommonPosts: 195

    Originally posted by SethiusX

    Originally posted by Ashlinde

    considering every MMO you just listed was too "bland" for you..... i think your time in MMOs has come to an end.

    you have simply grown out of them. move on. if you havent found one that you liked after 4-5 MMOs.... perhaps they just arent for you any more.

    I don't agree. I love WoW for what it is, and I love pvp and raiding. I am, what you would call, a themepark player. I just want a game that actually doesn't have a major flaw that pushes me back to WoW. I love WoW, but 6 years is enough for one game, it is time for one that can replace it.

    Also, I only said Rift was bland. I used the word on AoC incorrectly, I was trying to get at the fact that the game was not finished on release, and LOTRO was because of the lack of solo content and Warhammer was the lack of any pve at all.

    The reason "most" people return to, or stay with WoW has less to do with other games having "flaws" (the promotion no one is matching WoW's "quality"), but more to do with simple addiction and refusal to let go of time-invested.  WoW managed to capture a large audience as a result of good playability with lack of Lag, even in large encounters.  Remember those 40 man raids?

    MMOs rely upon the undeniable sense of "earnings" for Time Spent to retain subscriptions.  This is the buffer or counter-force to disatisfactions with a game.  WoW managed to create a strong gravity well in time and earnings perceptions in it's playerbase . . . so they stay.  Not always because they are happy with the game anymore or what it's become, but because they don't feel there's "anything better".

    As a result, the only game that will actually be "the WoW killer" will be the game that finally appears actually advancing the genre, abandons the schock approach of putting a skin over small scale, multiplied Grind Mechanisms, does stuff that WoW didn't touch . . . yet retains smooth playability and lack of lag in a large, persistent, living world.  Until then, if all games do is recycle "same-oh-same-oh", even with a slightly different skin layed over it, they will only pull subscribers away for a short time, at which point they will often rubber-band back into WoW orbit.  Not because WoW is better, but because they don't want to let go of the earnings achieved over years across the passage of time in WoW.

    Because if it all is just the "same-oh-same-oh", if they've got 5 years + worth of earnings of that in WoW, why is it reasonable to expect they'll consider a change, or a restart, when they've got a ton of it already in WoW?

    Wherever you go, there you are.

  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,138

    Originally posted by Vhaln

    Originally posted by Acvivm

    A lot of that could be said about every game on the market including the ones that have been around for years not just SWTOR.

     

    I think what any MMO would benefit from, as far as endgame goes, is variety.  I think most of them get too focused on a certain type of endgame, when its variety itself that can make a game feel deep.  Most MMOs don't have the budget to spread around like that, but TOR does.  I hope they use it wisely, but I'm doubtful because they seem to be sticking very rigidly to their gameplan.  Normally, I'd say that's smart, but Bioware seems a little too rigid to me.

     

    They are sticking to their game plan as a foundation. Now that they have removed all the bugs from the story and that is solid, it will give them a lot of time to focus on other things. Also they mentioned they will focus on end game now. Which means classes will be more balanced for end game, with other end game content as well. Which makes sense. Spending too much adjusting the flavor of the month for earlier lvls is pointless, and they might as well focus on end game more, than lvling for pvp balance. Of course the journey is important, but if balancing was not fixed for end game, becuase others were pathced as well, then end game will look really bad compared to the many other other elements in the game adding to the journey to end game.

    Also adding more layers to alreay existing content helps everyone especially those who do not reroll as end game, but instead want more end game.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • IncomparableIncomparable Member UncommonPosts: 1,138

    Originally posted by Acvivm

    Originally posted by Incomparable

    Long term it will do fine, but it will need more than just story, or more instances of pvp, or raids.

    They will need space combat,

    larger explorable worlds,

    worlds that have more utility with housing,

    guilds that play a larger role than a group that raids with more sand box elements for example,

    mini games,

    social activities,

    player created content with mini games for example.

    Improved character customization

    Dynamic events, or unique dailies created by devs/mods

    Weather system more evident and dynamic

    Abilties that interact with environment more, for example with the weather. If its raining maybe force lighting has a larger aoe

    Day/night cycle. They should really get on this, its a big deal imo, even if its hard to implement, its better to have the illusion of day and night, or darker or brighter times of the day.

    Smart AI. IF there is going to be a huge number of NPC make them aggro easily. However make certain mob easy to kill but in large numbers while others harder in smaller numbers. The change in combat and style makes things interesting.

    Make jump more useful. It looks like there is no need for a jump or crouch. Make that integrated with the environment and possibly with abilties. However that might be too demanding for an mmo by turning it into an FPS.

    Swimming, and underwater content

    Make vehicles interesting to be more than just transport and play a role in open world pvp. Possibly pvp abilties can slow down vehicles, or stop them. Same abilties can be avioded by driver, this can create for some rping and organized races. However this requires a more fps style combat with active blocking or something similar.

    Add more proffessions like music. Make music very complicated and high quality and thus allowing people to actualyl create high quality music worthy of listening on you tube. Great for advertising. Myabe a musical companion can do this?

    Localize servers, expand to other areas with more service in the area.

    Regional release, with subs. I am not really in need of this since English is the only language I speak, but it helps with sales of a product by being exclusive to peoples area and language.

    In UO you could write books and give them to other people. Whe should be able to do the same in swtor! We can write some fan fiction or sell online guides through AH for game money instead of real money.

     

     

     

    A lot of that could be said about every game on the market including the ones that have been around for years not just SWTOR.

    Thats true, but I am looking at it more of what needs attention. Some games dont need more social activities,or mini games, but possibly focus on other things.

    I think swtor from what I gathered should focus on some of these things. Of course something like adding a book to add our own lore, is something simple and fun and could fit with social activities... but in general, swtor still has a lot to add to thier game, even though they already do have a lot for a fresh release of a game. They got raids, instances, good story, open world pvp, crafting, companions, nice looking combat, really nice graphics when Anti alaised, VO, cinematics, and a whole bunch of other goodies.

    So in a way, I am kind of stating the obvious as you pointed out, but also what I hope to see for the star wars mmo in the near future.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

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