My view is that we need to send the investors of these games a message with our money. If we like a product, by all means, go support it. If we like their payment models and their company ethic, great, send the message we want more of this by giving them money.
But don't start giving your money to games which don't fit into that category. Plenty of people like TOR, and are happy to pay for it. But if it isn't popular enough to make its mega-profit, that needs to be the message to the developers and investors. That people want something else.
I would never "settle" on a mediocre game in the hope of something better coming along. If I settle, how do the developers know that's what I'm doing, and that I'm not actually really happy with what they did, and I want more? They'll just give me more of the same old crap.
Frankly, I think it's time to take a step back and think "If I'm asking people - including myself - to settle for something of lesser quality than I want, isn't it time I moved on and looked for something that actually meets my expectations?" Because you know what? That's the only way the developers, and more importantly, the people paying the developers, will learn. That's the way to bring about quality.
And on another note, I'm not paying EA any more of my money. I've been burned by their money-grab schemes in other games, and I'm not offering them my support for anything else until pigs fly and they show less corporate greed.
Customers staying subbed today for future content and expectations is fucking stupid. Here's the correct order of things:
1. Company makes a game worth playing and paying for.
2. Players pay to play the game.
It works in that order, and not the other way around. It doesn't matter if they spent ten thousand dollars to produce the game or twenty trillion. That's their problem. Make a good product and then people will pay for it. Customers should not be asked to pay for some future product. There is no justifiable reason to stay subbed to a game just because you think your sub will help the game survive longer or will help the company develop more future content. That is absolute insanity and the exact opposite of how business is run. Bioware isn't in this to provide you with entertainment. They are in this to make money as a business. They are not on your side. You are not a team with them.
Bottom line: if you like the game today, stay subbed. If you don't, then don't resub.
I don't want games like TOR, I would rather start over with low budget MMOs and see them gain momentum down the right path. The path layed out by UO --> SWG --> ??? NOT the path laid out by EQ --> WoW --> a bunch of really bad rip offs.
Well technically it went like this...
UO --> EQ --> SWG --> WoW....
And SWG was not a low budget....
Guess you didnt understand...
UO and SWG were sandbox games
EQ and WoW were theme park games
Thats why he listed them on seperate tracks.
A better way to list it would be...
Sandbox track
UO - > AC - > Shadowbane - > SWG -> EvE Online ->
Theme Park track
EQ -> EQ2 -> WoW -> WAR - > AOC -> Rift -> SWTOR
Both tracks are extremely different games. One focuses on player driven content that needs very little dev creation the other is 100% developer induced fun.
One could stop getting content and play on for years just fine... the other would die rather quickly
This is exactly what I meant, thank you for hitting the nail on the head :-)
I tried to keep it simple because I don't really feel that the longer string of games are derivative of each other... For instance, both EQ2 and WoW are both derivative of EQ1. The themeparks after WoW are mostly derivative of it and not each other. EVE is a bit of a beast of its own, not very similar to or derivative of SWG. I never got a chance to play AC and Shadowbane.
Okay so I'm hearing a lot of reports from players saying that they like TOR but they don't want to stay subbed to it, or that they are going to cancel and resub back to the game when they've added more content/fixed issues.
DON'T DO THAT.
EA/Bioware spent a lot of money on SW:TOR, I'm hearing estimates around $300 million or so, that's the most money a company has ever tossed at the MMO industry. You WANT them to toss money at us. However in order to cover such a big investment, Bioware needs an evern bigger return, and that's where the MMO community comes in. Unlike other gaming industries, MMOs need to establish a relationship with the playerbase to keep making money, and lately that relationship as soured. A lot of developers think the MMO community has turned into a bunch of loud-mouth, lazy, fickle bunch of spoiled brats.
We need to change our ways and have more realistic expectations of new MMOs if the industry is going to survive.
1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.
3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory.
4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.
I'm not a SW:TOR fanboy, I'm just concerned what will happen to the industry if a huge financial investment like TOR can't buy its way into the market. I can imagine that it's failure will create another black hole, similiar to Warhammer, where the industry was stuck in the dark ages of bad mmos for another 2-3 years. Or even worse, MMOs turn out to be an unprofitable fad and they pull the plug like they did with the Guitar Hero type games.
So in conclusion if you do like Star Wars: The Old Republc, give them your money. TOR may not be the best game in the market, or any good at all, but it's definitely super expensive, and it's new, and EA gets really mad if they don't get paid. We want to keep the relationship between MMO companies and communities good, or they might pull out and go make cheap browser games or something.
My view is that we need to send the investors of these games a message with our money. If we like a product, by all means, go support it. If we like their payment models and their company ethic, great, send the message we want more of this by giving them money. ...
+1. I think people vastly under-estimate how much power they have via the money they spend. I think we do this subconsciously to defend ourselves when we make unethical purchases like buying clothing from stores that we have heard get the clothes from sweatshops... Or going to see movies like 'We Bought A Zoo' that have large animals which can only be efficiently trained after being broken by their trainer (aka beaten close to death as children). But we don't want to think about those cute large animals while we watch the movie, do we? And we dont want to think about what happens to them after the movie, as they get older and bigger and can no longer be trained.
Each time you buy a game you are telling the market 'this is the game I want more of''.
I think that the OP is saying 'we should tell them we want more MMOs!' but like a lot of people on these forums, I want more quality MMOs, not more MMOs in general. So I will put my money instead towards an existing quality MMO.
This could be the worst thread I've ever seen here. Don't pay for shit or you'll end up paying for future shit.
As for SWTOR itself. I played it in late beta stages and I realized after 2 hours that this was just another unoriginal MMO. Felt very boring from level 1.
I don't want games like TOR, I would rather start over with low budget MMOs and see them gain momentum down the right path. The path layed out by UO --> SWG --> ??? NOT the path laid out by EQ --> WoW --> a bunch of really bad rip offs.
Well technically it went like this...
UO --> EQ --> SWG --> WoW....
And SWG was not a low budget....
Guess you didnt understand...
UO and SWG were sandbox games
EQ and WoW were theme park games
Thats why he listed them on seperate tracks.
A better way to list it would be...
Sandbox track
UO - > AC - > Shadowbane - > SWG -> EvE Online ->
Theme Park track
EQ -> EQ2 -> WoW -> WAR - > AOC -> Rift -> SWTOR
Both tracks are extremely different games. One focuses on player driven content that needs very little dev creation the other is 100% developer induced fun.
One could stop getting content and play on for years just fine... the other would die rather quickly
Well honestly i think they are 3 tracks, there is the Uo sandbox track, there is the EQ themepark track, and there is the Lineage pvp territory centered track. Those 3 games were developed in parallel, more or less during the same time, they all launched in '97/98. So its not like they are copy of each other.
Imo nobody really give any respect to the Lineage design and Jake Song behind it, but it really is an other branch imo. Most people put it under the Uo branch, maybe because they are both pvp enable mmo. But really they do had totally different focus, and that's why most sandbox designer have it totally wrong even today. A game like Darkfall claim to be some Uo game, but in fact they clearly share a Lineage core design. Uo wasn't as much a pvp game as a rp mmo, with open design philosophy. That's not what Lineage branch do, they focus on pvp and GvG and territory ownership. Lineage games really aren't much about sandbox at all, since they definitely have more of a themepark build with class, xp and all that in a pvp environment. For me its more:
UO > EVEonine / Swg
Lineage > Shadowbane > L2 > the billion Korean mmo > War > Aion > GW2
EQ > EQ 2 > Rift > Swtor
Its always a bit stupid to put stuff into categories, but at the end that's what language is about anyway. And i really think this is a lot more proper to real design history in mmo, and not only in theory.
1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
I expect a ford 2012 model to outperform a Ford T. if it doesn't, I'll get a different car.
This is so funny, especially from someone with the signature:
> "Yes, games that I play to pass the time should be time-consuming. That's why I play them."
Your signature is a realistic expectation from games. Your posting isnt at all.
Is chess a bad game just because its over a thousand years old ? No, its actually a game people still play with great pleasure.
So why should a new game be better than an old one ? Except for the graphics and newest fashions. We dont talk machines here. We talk games, i.e. art and culture. Speed and power doesnt matter in this area. Its how well the game challenges the human mind. And that isnt something that saw improvements since the Ford Model T.
I'd have to be really impressed by a companys vision to stay subbed to a game I felt had failings, Bioware has no vision strong enough to keep me subbed while not wanting to play it, they aren't pushing the genre forward in any significant direction beyond storyline which I'm afraid isn't enough for me.
So I should support a bloated unimaginative behemoth of a game which copies and reinforces EXACTLY all of the things that are wrong with the genre for the past 7 years?
Because a monopolistic, predatory corporate machine invested a lot of money in it?
You must be joking.
This is an "irony" thread, isn't it?
As for "industry surviving," you are talking out of your back end, aren't you? Industry will be much better off without another 500 pound gorilla dictating to everyone what is the "right" way to make mmos. There are some great inovative games coming up, with a lot of heart and imagination behind them. SW:TOR is just a bloated dinosaur standing in their way, just like WoW was. Or let me correct myself - WoW was imaginative for its day and age. SW:TOR isn't. It's a stillborn dinousaur. It's imminent demise will be a chance for this genre to finally have a breath of fresh air.
So I should support a bloated unimaginative behemoth of a game which copies and reinforces EXACTLY all of the things that are wrong with the genre for the past 7 years?
Because a monopolistic, predatory corporate machine invested a lot of money in it?
You must be joking.
This is an "irony" thread, isn't it?
Either that or it belongs in the MO section.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Ha. Let em burn. These big companies need to lean that they can't feed us crap even though it has a brand name and a ton of $$ and marketing. All the people and critics that gave it "great" reveiws can stay with it.
This & the fact that we should reward quality games with our wallets, & not reward companies
that WASTE yes WASTE £300mill on "just another mediocre MMO"
This game is not worth the hype, never has & never will.
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ Played: SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
With $300 million and they keep continue making that game with all the warning from testers... They just take them for shit...
For industrie like that i just want them to collapse and never come back in mmo industry.
MMOs industry are not here to make you happy or make the game you want to play. They are just here to take a part of the cake.
Believe me $300 million is nothing to EA and Bioware. They already sold 2 millions copies (60$ each = 120 000 000 $) with new comers and people paying monthly, they cover that easily.
Plus, don't try to make us believe that mmo industry is dying because it cannot be more alive. it is not because their games suck that the system is dying. All eat cornflakes, Mcdonald and drink coca, and the system cannot be more alive (Thats even a reason to the system is alive)
Me i think MMOs industry (more generally our society) sucks not because players don't want to pay but because they just think we are good sheep with dollars instead of whool.
Maybe most of us are, then I wish i live long enough to see our whole system(not specially games) to collapse by their creatures the created...
I don't want games like TOR, I would rather start over with low budget MMOs and see them gain momentum down the right path. The path layed out by UO --> SWG --> ??? NOT the path laid out by EQ --> WoW --> a bunch of really bad rip offs.
Well technically it went like this...
UO --> EQ --> SWG --> WoW....
And SWG was not a low budget....
Guess you didnt understand...
UO and SWG were sandbox games
EQ and WoW were theme park games
Thats why he listed them on seperate tracks.
A better way to list it would be...
Sandbox track
UO - > AC - > Shadowbane - > SWG -> EvE Online ->
Theme Park track
EQ -> EQ2 -> WoW -> WAR - > AOC -> Rift -> SWTOR
Both tracks are extremely different games. One focuses on player driven content that needs very little dev creation the other is 100% developer induced fun.
One could stop getting content and play on for years just fine... the other would die rather quickly
Well honestly i think they are 3 tracks, there is the Uo sandbox track, there is the EQ themepark track, and there is the Lineage pvp territory centered track. Those 3 games were developed in parallel, more or less during the same time, they all launched in '97/98. So its not like they are copy of each other.
Imo nobody really give any respect to the Lineage design and Jake Song behind it, but it really is an other branch imo. Most people put it under the Uo branch, maybe because they are both pvp enable mmo. But really they do had totally different focus, and that's why most sandbox designer have it totally wrong even today. A game like Darkfall claim to be some Uo game, but in fact they clearly share a Lineage core design. Uo wasn't as much a pvp game as a rp mmo, with open design philosophy. That's not what Lineage branch do, they focus on pvp and GvG and territory ownership. Lineage games really aren't much about sandbox at all, since they definitely have more of a themepark build with class, xp and all that in a pvp environment. For me its more:
UO > EVEonine / Swg
Lineage > Shadowbane > L2 > the billion Korean mmo > War > Aion > GW2
EQ > EQ 2 > Rift > Swtor
Its always a bit stupid to put stuff into categories, but at the end that's what language is about anyway. And i really think this is a lot more proper to real design history in mmo, and not only in theory.
So I should support a bloated unimaginative behemoth of a game which copies and reinforces EXACTLY all of the things that are wrong with the genre for the past 7 years?
Because a monopolistic, predatory corporate machine invested a lot of money in it?
You must be joking.
This is an "irony" thread, isn't it?
Either that or it belongs in the MO section.
Or a political discussion on big banks bailouts.
The op is using the very same arguments as were used for big banks bailouts. (Aka "the greatest theft in history.")
I really wish more people would take it upon themselves to educate themselves when it comes to topics like these.
This notion that large projects need to be supported, because they have so much capital invested is ludicrous. Companies invest a lot of money, only when they expect to get a huge return. This is fine, but if you want to start seeing products you actually want, then you really only have a few options.
- Make them yourself (or start your own company)
- Support companies you feel have a similar mindset / make games you enjoy
- Stop throwing money at bad companies / projects just because you can
If you think TOR is bad, and think we should support Bioware anyway, you really need to take another look at the way the world works. Supporting bad game developement won't save the industry, it will condemn it. The more uninspired / stagnant projects that make money, the more frequently we will see the same types of products in the future.
Keep in mind that 'death' is a very necessary part of industry / economy. It is a good thing. If outdated / poor ideas and products don't 'die', then there can be no progress. Only stagnation.
See I think the exact opposite. I personally think SWTOR failing would do the mmo market a hell of a lot of good for a few reasons.
It might make the big corporate big wigs reconsider investing again and again into the same exactly formula leading to **Gasp** some innovation
It might just teach these folks that we as gamers cant just be bought by big prices, huge marketing schemes, and hype.
It might after six years FINALLY make developers wake the hell up.
I can understand why people would want SWTOR to fail, I can also see why people think it will change the shape of MMORPG's for the better. Sadly it won't. If SWTOR doesn't retain subscribers it weakens future developer requests for investment. Why invest 50million dollars into a break even MMORPG project? The argument will become "if an IP like Star Wars and company like Bioware can't make it work for 150million how can you for 50million?" This doesn't mean the MMORPG genre will die, but will suffer and probably evolve in a direction most won't appreciate.
Also those who think SWTOR is the way it is because "they only want money?" should re-think. LA, Bioware and EA could have made a lot more profit (not revenue) with little risk by focusing on Star Wars social network and mobile games. The star wars IP alone would have pulled in 50 million MAU, on average spending $0.10 each. This is a massive long term profit considering social and mobile games would have cost less than 1% of SWTOR.
SWTOR is the way it is because 11 million people seem to be addicted to the formula in WoW. So rather than focusing blame on EA and Bioware - blame those 11 million players.
SWTOR is like WoW so that entire communities can migrate from WoW with ease. Dividing established communities through innovation, visuals etc etc is impossible - most people don't care and just want to be doing something with friends. This has been the hurdle constantly for companies and Bioware have taken design decisions to give their game a chance to appeal by feeling familiar and comfortable at launch. Surely ensuring they have a populace so the massively multiplayer aspects of the game thrive is vital?
I say Viva la revolution! Bring change the status quo. I will mean some tough times for the mmo landscape and several mmos will die but in the end i think it will bring something better to us
This is failed logic. If you keep giving them money in hopes they will innovate what motivation do they have to innovate? They are already getting the money. If you take the money away they have to innovate to try and get it back or the game dies. You're doing no favors by giving them charity.
1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
End-game content is irrelevent, people are willing to wait if everything else is in line which it is not.
2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.
So for a product that fails to provide what it's suppose to we are just to give it more money and hope for the best?
3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory.
Then the Devs should have never copied it's mechanics and actually came out with a product that is innovative and not a rehash of the same ol' same ol'.
4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.
Welcome to the lovely world of hyped games. This is a two edged sword, for years the fans have proclaimed this game as the second coming or the new "King MMO" and now that it is finally here and the are many mixed opinions of the game you are naturally will have this... and quite frankly something you asked for by flaunting in everyone's face how this game will dominate the MMO market.
See I think the exact opposite. I personally think SWTOR failing would do the mmo market a hell of a lot of good for a few reasons.
It might make the big corporate big wigs reconsider investing again and again into the same exactly formula leading to **Gasp** some innovation
It might just teach these folks that we as gamers cant just be bought by big prices, huge marketing schemes, and hype.
It might after six years FINALLY make developers wake the hell up.
I can understand why people would want SWTOR to fail, I can also see why people think it will change the shape of MMORPG's for the better. Sadly it won't. If SWTOR doesn't retain subscribers it weakens future developer requests for investment. Why invest 50million dollars into a break even MMORPG project? The argument will become "if an IP like Star Wars and company like Bioware can't make it work for 150million how can you for 50million?" This doesn't mean the MMORPG genre will die, but will suffer and probably evolve in a direction most won't appreciate.
Also those who think SWTOR is the way it is because "they only want money?" should re-think. LA, Bioware and EA could have made a lot more profit (not revenue) with little risk by focusing on Star Wars social network and mobile games. The star wars IP alone would have pulled in 50 million MAU, on average spending $0.10 each. This is a massive long term profit considering social and mobile games would have cost less than 1% of SWTOR.
SWTOR is the way it is because 11 million people seem to be addicted to the formula in WoW. So rather than focusing blame on EA and Bioware - blame those 11 million players.
SWTOR is like WoW so that entire communities can migrate from WoW with ease. Dividing established communities through innovation, visuals etc etc is impossible - most people don't care and just want to be doing something with friends. This has been the hurdle constantly for companies and Bioware have taken design decisions to give their game a chance to appeal by feeling familiar and comfortable at launch. Surely ensuring they have a populace so the massively multiplayer aspects of the game thrive is vital?
Let me try to show, by analogizing, why this thought process is harmful to us as consumers:
Company 1: Let's make a cellphone with amazing new features that consumers will utilize and with an interface that's extremely intuitive and fun to use.
Company 2: (watches Company 1 rake in boatloads of cash) Hey! Let's copy Company 1's design but not put so many features or thought into the product so that we can maximize profit! And we'll continue to watch Company 1's innovations so that we can be in step to mirror them.
Which company would you wish to buy from as a matter of principle?
I dont know about you OP but I pay if I see something is worth paying for. I don't pay to support a company or a game, that is charity and I use Unicef for that.
I really wish more people would take it upon themselves to educate themselves when it comes to topics like these.
This notion that large projects need to be supported, because they have so much capital invested is ludicrous. Companies invest a lot of money, only when they expect to get a huge return. This is fine, but if you want to start seeing products you actually want, then you really only have a few options.
- Make them yourself (or start your own company)
- Support companies you feel have a similar mindset / make games you enjoy
- Stop throwing money at bad companies / projects just because you can
If you think TOR is bad, and think we should support Bioware anyway, you really need to take another look at the way the world works. Supporting bad game developement won't save the industry, it will condemn it. The more uninspired / stagnant projects that make money, the more frequently we will see the same types of products in the future.
Keep in mind that 'death' is a very necessary part of industry / economy. It is a good thing. If outdated / poor ideas and products don't 'die', then there can be no progress. Only stagnation.
^this
I will add, every market has a finite amount of investment and profit within it. So when large projects such as TOR, who take up so much of that finite resource, actually become a threat to the industry overall by producing sub standard products.
There are only so many customers and so many dollars that will be spent on the MMO genre. If the bulk of that money is spent on games that spend more on marketing and deception, than there is less money on actual game development. Hence, a decline in the indutry overall.
Imagine if the horse and buggy industry went around buying up all the small companies making automobiles circa 1900, only to rip the engine out and stick a horse in front of them. Sure its a lame analogy, but it saves me a wall of text to explain the consequences of what you are trying to push OP.
Comments
My view is that we need to send the investors of these games a message with our money. If we like a product, by all means, go support it. If we like their payment models and their company ethic, great, send the message we want more of this by giving them money.
But don't start giving your money to games which don't fit into that category. Plenty of people like TOR, and are happy to pay for it. But if it isn't popular enough to make its mega-profit, that needs to be the message to the developers and investors. That people want something else.
I would never "settle" on a mediocre game in the hope of something better coming along. If I settle, how do the developers know that's what I'm doing, and that I'm not actually really happy with what they did, and I want more? They'll just give me more of the same old crap.
Frankly, I think it's time to take a step back and think "If I'm asking people - including myself - to settle for something of lesser quality than I want, isn't it time I moved on and looked for something that actually meets my expectations?" Because you know what? That's the only way the developers, and more importantly, the people paying the developers, will learn. That's the way to bring about quality.
And on another note, I'm not paying EA any more of my money. I've been burned by their money-grab schemes in other games, and I'm not offering them my support for anything else until pigs fly and they show less corporate greed.
Reality Bites. I'm only Barking
Exactly, when the next company that wants to spend millions comes along then they will learn from this and avoid mistakes.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Customers staying subbed today for future content and expectations is fucking stupid. Here's the correct order of things:
1. Company makes a game worth playing and paying for.
2. Players pay to play the game.
It works in that order, and not the other way around. It doesn't matter if they spent ten thousand dollars to produce the game or twenty trillion. That's their problem. Make a good product and then people will pay for it. Customers should not be asked to pay for some future product. There is no justifiable reason to stay subbed to a game just because you think your sub will help the game survive longer or will help the company develop more future content. That is absolute insanity and the exact opposite of how business is run. Bioware isn't in this to provide you with entertainment. They are in this to make money as a business. They are not on your side. You are not a team with them.
Bottom line: if you like the game today, stay subbed. If you don't, then don't resub.
This is exactly what I meant, thank you for hitting the nail on the head :-)
I tried to keep it simple because I don't really feel that the longer string of games are derivative of each other... For instance, both EQ2 and WoW are both derivative of EQ1. The themeparks after WoW are mostly derivative of it and not each other. EVE is a bit of a beast of its own, not very similar to or derivative of SWG. I never got a chance to play AC and Shadowbane.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Ow! OP's logic acctually hurt my brain.
+1. I think people vastly under-estimate how much power they have via the money they spend. I think we do this subconsciously to defend ourselves when we make unethical purchases like buying clothing from stores that we have heard get the clothes from sweatshops... Or going to see movies like 'We Bought A Zoo' that have large animals which can only be efficiently trained after being broken by their trainer (aka beaten close to death as children). But we don't want to think about those cute large animals while we watch the movie, do we? And we dont want to think about what happens to them after the movie, as they get older and bigger and can no longer be trained.
Each time you buy a game you are telling the market 'this is the game I want more of''.
I think that the OP is saying 'we should tell them we want more MMOs!' but like a lot of people on these forums, I want more quality MMOs, not more MMOs in general. So I will put my money instead towards an existing quality MMO.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
This could be the worst thread I've ever seen here. Don't pay for shit or you'll end up paying for future shit.
As for SWTOR itself. I played it in late beta stages and I realized after 2 hours that this was just another unoriginal MMO. Felt very boring from level 1.
Well honestly i think they are 3 tracks, there is the Uo sandbox track, there is the EQ themepark track, and there is the Lineage pvp territory centered track. Those 3 games were developed in parallel, more or less during the same time, they all launched in '97/98. So its not like they are copy of each other.
Imo nobody really give any respect to the Lineage design and Jake Song behind it, but it really is an other branch imo. Most people put it under the Uo branch, maybe because they are both pvp enable mmo. But really they do had totally different focus, and that's why most sandbox designer have it totally wrong even today. A game like Darkfall claim to be some Uo game, but in fact they clearly share a Lineage core design. Uo wasn't as much a pvp game as a rp mmo, with open design philosophy. That's not what Lineage branch do, they focus on pvp and GvG and territory ownership. Lineage games really aren't much about sandbox at all, since they definitely have more of a themepark build with class, xp and all that in a pvp environment. For me its more:
UO > EVEonine / Swg
Lineage > Shadowbane > L2 > the billion Korean mmo > War > Aion > GW2
EQ > EQ 2 > Rift > Swtor
Its always a bit stupid to put stuff into categories, but at the end that's what language is about anyway. And i really think this is a lot more proper to real design history in mmo, and not only in theory.
This is so funny, especially from someone with the signature:
> "Yes, games that I play to pass the time should be time-consuming. That's why I play them."
Your signature is a realistic expectation from games. Your posting isnt at all.
Is chess a bad game just because its over a thousand years old ? No, its actually a game people still play with great pleasure.
So why should a new game be better than an old one ? Except for the graphics and newest fashions. We dont talk machines here. We talk games, i.e. art and culture. Speed and power doesnt matter in this area. Its how well the game challenges the human mind. And that isnt something that saw improvements since the Ford Model T.
I'd have to be really impressed by a companys vision to stay subbed to a game I felt had failings, Bioware has no vision strong enough to keep me subbed while not wanting to play it, they aren't pushing the genre forward in any significant direction beyond storyline which I'm afraid isn't enough for me.
So I should support a bloated unimaginative behemoth of a game which copies and reinforces EXACTLY all of the things that are wrong with the genre for the past 7 years?
Because a monopolistic, predatory corporate machine invested a lot of money in it?
You must be joking.
This is an "irony" thread, isn't it?
As for "industry surviving," you are talking out of your back end, aren't you? Industry will be much better off without another 500 pound gorilla dictating to everyone what is the "right" way to make mmos. There are some great inovative games coming up, with a lot of heart and imagination behind them. SW:TOR is just a bloated dinosaur standing in their way, just like WoW was. Or let me correct myself - WoW was imaginative for its day and age. SW:TOR isn't. It's a stillborn dinousaur. It's imminent demise will be a chance for this genre to finally have a breath of fresh air.
Also OP can support me too anytime, i also know how to spend a lot of money and i need a new boat. We'll go fishing squids together
Either that or it belongs in the MO section.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
This & the fact that we should reward quality games with our wallets, & not reward companies
that WASTE yes WASTE £300mill on "just another mediocre MMO"
This game is not worth the hype, never has & never will.
The Deathstar destroyed planets...Lucas Arts destroyed Galaxies
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Played:
SWG | EVE | WOW | VG | LOTRO | WAR | FML | STO | APB | AOC | MORTAL | WOT | BP | SW:TOR
With $300 million and they keep continue making that game with all the warning from testers... They just take them for shit...
For industrie like that i just want them to collapse and never come back in mmo industry.
MMOs industry are not here to make you happy or make the game you want to play. They are just here to take a part of the cake.
Believe me $300 million is nothing to EA and Bioware. They already sold 2 millions copies (60$ each = 120 000 000 $) with new comers and people paying monthly, they cover that easily.
Plus, don't try to make us believe that mmo industry is dying because it cannot be more alive. it is not because their games suck that the system is dying. All eat cornflakes, Mcdonald and drink coca, and the system cannot be more alive (Thats even a reason to the system is alive)
Me i think MMOs industry (more generally our society) sucks not because players don't want to pay but because they just think we are good sheep with dollars instead of whool.
Maybe most of us are, then I wish i live long enough to see our whole system(not specially games) to collapse by their creatures the created...
I think this is pretty fair....
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Or a political discussion on big banks bailouts.
The op is using the very same arguments as were used for big banks bailouts. (Aka "the greatest theft in history.")
"Too big to fail," lol.
I really wish more people would take it upon themselves to educate themselves when it comes to topics like these.
This notion that large projects need to be supported, because they have so much capital invested is ludicrous. Companies invest a lot of money, only when they expect to get a huge return. This is fine, but if you want to start seeing products you actually want, then you really only have a few options.
- Make them yourself (or start your own company)
- Support companies you feel have a similar mindset / make games you enjoy
- Stop throwing money at bad companies / projects just because you can
If you think TOR is bad, and think we should support Bioware anyway, you really need to take another look at the way the world works. Supporting bad game developement won't save the industry, it will condemn it. The more uninspired / stagnant projects that make money, the more frequently we will see the same types of products in the future.
Keep in mind that 'death' is a very necessary part of industry / economy. It is a good thing. If outdated / poor ideas and products don't 'die', then there can be no progress. Only stagnation.
I can understand why people would want SWTOR to fail, I can also see why people think it will change the shape of MMORPG's for the better. Sadly it won't. If SWTOR doesn't retain subscribers it weakens future developer requests for investment. Why invest 50million dollars into a break even MMORPG project? The argument will become "if an IP like Star Wars and company like Bioware can't make it work for 150million how can you for 50million?" This doesn't mean the MMORPG genre will die, but will suffer and probably evolve in a direction most won't appreciate.
Also those who think SWTOR is the way it is because "they only want money?" should re-think. LA, Bioware and EA could have made a lot more profit (not revenue) with little risk by focusing on Star Wars social network and mobile games. The star wars IP alone would have pulled in 50 million MAU, on average spending $0.10 each. This is a massive long term profit considering social and mobile games would have cost less than 1% of SWTOR.
SWTOR is the way it is because 11 million people seem to be addicted to the formula in WoW. So rather than focusing blame on EA and Bioware - blame those 11 million players.
SWTOR is like WoW so that entire communities can migrate from WoW with ease. Dividing established communities through innovation, visuals etc etc is impossible - most people don't care and just want to be doing something with friends. This has been the hurdle constantly for companies and Bioware have taken design decisions to give their game a chance to appeal by feeling familiar and comfortable at launch. Surely ensuring they have a populace so the massively multiplayer aspects of the game thrive is vital?
I say Viva la revolution! Bring change the status quo. I will mean some tough times for the mmo landscape and several mmos will die but in the end i think it will bring something better to us
This is failed logic. If you keep giving them money in hopes they will innovate what motivation do they have to innovate? They are already getting the money. If you take the money away they have to innovate to try and get it back or the game dies. You're doing no favors by giving them charity.
Let me try to show, by analogizing, why this thought process is harmful to us as consumers:
Company 1: Let's make a cellphone with amazing new features that consumers will utilize and with an interface that's extremely intuitive and fun to use.
Company 2: (watches Company 1 rake in boatloads of cash) Hey! Let's copy Company 1's design but not put so many features or thought into the product so that we can maximize profit! And we'll continue to watch Company 1's innovations so that we can be in step to mirror them.
Which company would you wish to buy from as a matter of principle?
Re: SWTOR
"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"
I dont know about you OP but I pay if I see something is worth paying for. I don't pay to support a company or a game, that is charity and I use Unicef for that.
My gaming blog
^this
I will add, every market has a finite amount of investment and profit within it. So when large projects such as TOR, who take up so much of that finite resource, actually become a threat to the industry overall by producing sub standard products.
There are only so many customers and so many dollars that will be spent on the MMO genre. If the bulk of that money is spent on games that spend more on marketing and deception, than there is less money on actual game development. Hence, a decline in the indutry overall.
Imagine if the horse and buggy industry went around buying up all the small companies making automobiles circa 1900, only to rip the engine out and stick a horse in front of them. Sure its a lame analogy, but it saves me a wall of text to explain the consequences of what you are trying to push OP.