I can't speak for Diablo 3, but I will let you guys in on a little secret. GW2 is gonna launch with no endgame and broken PvP just like SW:TOR did and just like literally every MMO that came out before it did.
Say what you will about SW:TOR but this game has had the most successful launch in the history of MMOs. This is as good as its going to get.
Nobody is going to be able to spend as much money to compete with Blizzard like EA can, so we should support EA because they have the money to make/copy the content we want.
The money argument does not hold water with me at all. Pouring money into something does not equal succes and I would like to ask:
Where did all the money go ?
You have a AAA MMO launch without many standard features MMOs have, flawed graphics ( no high rez ) and just vanilla themepark gameplay....
So you spent how much on voiceovers ??
I think TOR should be supported if you like the game, if you don't then don't support it. I hope it succeeds and I certainly hope to return, but until they fix/finish some of the issues they have, my money they shall not get.
===
What do you mean "as good as it is going to get" ? RIFT had a solid launch also. Now, I am very glad to see that MMOs are launching without major issues and in a playable state, but TOR is not alone in that category. Remember a few years ago ? With unplayable, unfinished disaster launches ( vanguard comes to mind, AOC also ) ... at least we have seen improvements since then.
It just amazes me that we as MMO enthusiasts settle for crap so often, that a smooth launch is such a big deal... they all should be smooth and games should launch playable and in good working condition overall. Then we could all concentratie on the real issue, the content and design of the gameplay and if we like it or not.
I feel like with the MMO industry history of disaster launches, we now think a great game is one that launches smoothly... that should be the case with EVERY game.
I'm not going to reward stale MMO design with an active subscription.
There are things I like about the game, but there is too much I don't like. A few of those things might be fixed or improved, but others are too instrinsic in the game design or would require unrealistic amounts of development to address.
I can find things to pass the time with in the game, but with the constant reminder of how flawed some elements of the game are at every play session.
Bioware/EA cut corners and made compromises to get the game out in four years. From the game engine to core design decisions, the comproises were just too great and the result is massive potential completely wasted.
If this game had come out five years ago, it might have thrived among it's contemporaries. For a 2012 MMO title, it just comes off as extremly stale; a game that sacrificed fun and usability by making imitation, rahter than innovation, the prime consideration.
I dont know if thats the only reason, I think these developers should concentrate on what that particular gaming audience actually wants rather than try cut and paste tactics on a game. For instance if I were a dev and got permission somehow to do a Zelda mmorpg for Nentindo there is abosolutely no way on gods green earth I am making that a Sandbox. That fiction is hand made to be set to a dungeon crawling 5 + man grouping puzzle rpg game. And most of all thats what the fanbase of the fiction and previous games would expect. But what if it were say Blade Runner or Eldar Scrolls, do you think those fan bases would happily accept a game with no personal freedom and a totally linear world, and just try to picture 10 man raids in Blade Runner the mmorpg, makes you a bit weezy in the stomach doesn't it? Thats exactly the feeling you get as a Star Wars fan and seeing this game. It doen't offer what you expect from the Star Wars universe it offers you what EA games wanted it to offer, a Themepark Cash cow. That is the problem with the game it didn't have to be a Themepark, Sandbox etc, it had to be the Star Wars game the fans wanted.
When I think of Star Wars as an mmorpg with a blank slate and no backdrop of previous mmorpgs,I think of a game thats somewhere between pirate galaxy and Anarchy online with Moderate crafting, things like droid building, ship design lots of non combat tech trees EVE esqe and plenty of talents and or skills to use. Factions yes but not set varied and many and joinable. Its a combination of Economy, political power moves and faction warfare but not just one, certainly not a battleground game with dungeons and the My Buddy system.
If BioWare, Star Wars and $130 million fails to replicate WoW's success... maybe... just maybe... we'll see the end of these banal two faction WoW clone linear themeparks. Burn, SWTOR, burn!
Not supporting Swtor isn't going to destroy the mmorpg genre. It may cost some big people at EA/Bioware their jobs if the money doesn't come in fast enough, and EA may avoid the genre for a couple years, but in the end there is too much money to be made for the genre to collapse.
What not supporting Swtor will do, is send yet another message that mediocrity and lies won't be tolerated.
However any affect there will be diminished from the long term nature of mmorpgs. However much I'd like to see EA have to swallow a loss on Swtor, the reality is that even if it goes the way of WAR, it will likely turn a small profit in the long run.
By the OPs logic we all should have given our bank accounts and credit cards to Dark and Light and Thrones of Chaos (Realms of ??? can't remember all its incarnations anymore).
Quoted for the truth.
I'm not gonna give my money for some half assed mmo project that bores the crap out of me when I play it. We do NOT pay for mediocre games when we can get those for free. If they want us to pay, they better deliver something worth paying for !!
Personally I will not even concider subscribing until they perform seperate EU maintenance (at night). It's an apalling business decision. Every one knows to maximise revenue you need to maximise the availibility of your service to as many paying subscribers as possible. I am of a mind that not only should EU players not support this bussiness decision they should send a clear message it is un acepatble.
As for the game it's nowhere near as 'ready' as Rift, LotRO or eve DAoC where at launch. There is easily fixible stuff like the GTN (Glactic Trade Network) interface that simply should not have made it into production, its got to be a 'place holder' right? Then there is stuff that will be tricky to fix that stem back to the engine they chose (ability delay, fps issues etc.) These things that are major issues to some are likely to tkae months if not years of tweaking, optomising and generly tarting up core code. This game is more AoC than it is Rift.
Incidentally I am still finding the game fun though (so far) tend to be bored of characters around the end of Act I. Maybe I just have not found my archetype yet.
Personally I will not even concider subscribing until they perform seperate EU maintenance (at night). It's an apalling business decision. Every one knows to maximise revenue you need to maximise the availibility of your service to as many paying subscribers as possible. I am of a mind that not only should EU players not support this bussiness decision they should send a clear message it is un acepatble.
As for the game it's nowhere near as 'ready' as Rift, LotRO or eve DAoC where at launch. There is easily fixible stuff like the GTN (Glactic Trade Network) interface that simply should not have made it into production, its got to be a 'place holder' right? Then there is stuff that will be tricky to fix that stem back to the engine they chose (ability delay, fps issues etc.) These things that are major issues to some are likely to tkae months if not years of tweaking, optomising and generly tarting up core code. This game is more AoC than it is Rift.
Incidentally I am still finding the game fun though (so far) tend to be bored of characters around the end of Act I. Maybe I just have not found my archetype yet.
The EU players already voted with their wallet and canceled their subs.
Just check on the server loads during EU primetime. Most of the EU servers don't go beyond Standard anymore.
The EU PVE-RP server used to be full with queues merely two weeks ago and now it hardly gets to even Heavy anymore.
If BioWare, Star Wars and $130 million fails to replicate WoW's success... maybe... just maybe... we'll see the end of these banal two faction WoW clone linear themeparks. Burn, SWTOR, burn!
Now this is what I don't understand. I've seen people and posts here who're almost drooling at the thought of SWTOR and other traditional themepark MMO's fail or burn, as if they're using up all the air and leave no room for other styles of MMO's. While reality is different, and for those people paying attention, it should be clear that there are already all kinds of different types of AAA MMO's coming, regardless whether SWTOR and Rift and other themepark MMO's are successful or not.
The Secret World: themepark MMO, but no classes and levels, no gear stats, different not-before-seen type of questing and other interesting different features
GW2: themepark MMO, but what I'd consider the next evolution or 2.0 themepark design
ArcheAge: themepark/sandbox hybrid, possibly the first, at least the only AAA one of the past 7 years
Firefall and Planetside 2: both MMOFPS
And already in development, World of Darkness and Undead Labs' zombie MMO that will be different and certainly not traditional themepark design
All these are already coming out, different types of MMO's that'll exist next to themepark MMO's. So why do people feel there can only be one successful design, and that for a different MMO to be successful, all MMO's of another design style have to fail and burn? Makes no sense to me at all, this kind of black and white thinking.
Okay so I'm hearing a lot of reports from players saying that they like TOR but they don't want to stay subbed to it, or that they are going to cancel and resub back to the game when they've added more content/fixed issues.
DON'T DO THAT.
EA/Bioware spent a lot of money on SW:TOR, I'm hearing estimates around $300 million or so, that's the most money a company has ever tossed at the MMO industry. You WANT them to toss money at us. However in order to cover such a big investment, Bioware needs an evern bigger return, and that's where the MMO community comes in. Unlike other gaming industries, MMOs need to establish a relationship with the playerbase to keep making money, and lately that relationship as soured. A lot of developers think the MMO community has turned into a bunch of loud-mouth, lazy, fickle bunch of spoiled brats.
Regardless of what developers opinions of gamers might be, we pay their salaries and fund future development. So, if a company wants to have the promise of being able to develop in the future, they need to innovate and give players a variety. The problem with the industry is that developers and investors are too scared to innovate, and players are tired of the same crap being done over and over again. If developers refuse to innovate, then players are obivoulsy going to be less willing to part with their money. This is called a free market economy.
We need to change our ways and have more realistic expectations of new MMOs if the industry is going to survive.
I disagree, and especially if the $150-$300 million figure is accurate. They've had plenty of time and plenty of money to iron out these kinks, and players are within their rights and justified in leaving if they choose to do so.
1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
See previous comment about time and money. Also though it begs understanding as to how BioWare intended their game to be played. If they've damn near left out endgame content, are the players supposed to re-roll at that point? If so, doesn't that lend credence to the notion than the game is predominately centered around solo (single-player) content?
2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.
I disagree, I cite the amount of money that was spend on this game again, and also there are plenty of examples of companies who provide expansions and additions without additional cost to players.
3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory.
Wow is the 'it' game currently, so it is the only game alot of people have to compare new games to.
4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.
This is a realtive argument, but I take offense to it. Firstly because the style of game that SWTOR is has been dominant in the industry at least since 2004 (thats 8 years). Secondly, people are becoming tired of tired of that design, and if SWTOR is a huge smash success, it does nothing but give impetus to future game development and investors. Therefore, if your one that wishes for something different, SWTOR can't be a huge success, otherwise we will continue to get more of the same.
I'm not a SW:TOR fanboy, I'm just concerned what will happen to the industry if a huge financial investment like TOR can't buy its way into the market. I can imagine that it's failure will create another black hole, similiar to Warhammer, where the industry was stuck in the dark ages of bad mmos for another 2-3 years. Or even worse, MMOs turn out to be an unprofitable fad and they pull the plug like they did with the Guitar Hero type games.
I disagree, and emphasize the opposite. SWTOR is the epitome of the "dark age of bad MMOs", because, while it might not be a clone of WOW, it builds on the bad aspects of WOW. Also, see my previous comment about why SWTOR can't become a success.
So in conclusion if you do like Star Wars: The Old Republc, give them your money. TOR may not be the best game in the market, or any good at all, but it's definitely super expensive, and it's new, and EA gets really mad if they don't get paid. We want to keep the relationship between MMO companies and communities good, or they might pull out and go make cheap browser games or something.
I don't like SWTOR, so I won't be giving them my money, but that's a relative viewpoint. However, if BioWare or EA, or any other developer can't produce a game that people want, that is their fault. I don't suspect someone would support a game based on the fact that it uses a certain IP, because it's new, or because the developer gets mad if they don't get paid. These are not my problems. If the development of MMOs suffers it is dually because developers are too scared to take chances and innovate, and because gamers blindly throw money at lackluster games.
Additionally, the relationship between developer and community should grow out of mutual respect, not because of some theoretically bad outcome which forces it.
The EU players already voted with their wallet and canceled their subs.
Just check on the server loads during EU primetime. Most of the EU servers don't go beyond Standard anymore.
The EU PVE-RP server used to be full with queues merely two weeks ago and now it hardly gets to even Heavy anymore.
Now this is a downright lie or wishful thinking dream. I checked as recently as yesterday, and saw about 70 of the 90 servers that were heavy or higher status on a weekday evening. Besides that, status 'full' and other status categories have been changed what they mean over the course of weeks with their incremental raising of the population cap. I'm not saying that there won't be people playing less hours and such, but at least let's keep it real without fabrications. Personally I think that after Jan 20th will draw a clearer picture, how people voted with their wallet.
As for the OP, people should play whatever game they enjoy to play. If someone likes SWTOR, play it and sub for as long as he's having fun, if someone doesn't, don't play it and move on to a game that he wants to play or wait until it arrives while doing something else.
1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.
3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory.
4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.
This, everyone seems to forget that when wow came out it was shoddy featureless waste of space, I think I played a weeks worth from launch was lvl 40 and bored, it was a 40$ donkey which had me cryin ehorhhh by the end of the week. I left it and went back to EQ2, only trying it again on the recomendation of a friends son three or so years later. If you had all turned tail and run back then Wow would have gone down in flames.
Since the advent of the internet I don't think I've seen a single game launch that hasn't required patching post release. Life is too easy now, there was a time you had to order a 3.5 floppy from a developer if you wanted a patch to fix issues. Even console titles have patches.
Originally I thought I would hate SWTOR, but it grew on me, because hell no elves in sight. A lot of love went into it, respect it. They fix problems almost every other day, yes its annoying and I just want to play, but I can live with it so long as a better prodduct is there in the end. Same thing happened in every other game! Some things only come to light in live, you can test with a test server only so much, but hell developers are only human. Only when you give your product to the masses and say there you go, now see if you can break it, do you actually get a true test. When a thousand people test you might get some issues. When a million exploiters get a hold of your product with the single aim to get the most, find the most, win the most, do you truely see where the flaws lie. I'll give them credit, if the worst exploit/bug to appear involves getting down with a boss, life isn't that bad.
The answer really is simple to quote a wise old master, Bioware gives you a choice. Play or don't play, pay or don't pay, Do or do not.
I can understand people not liking SWTOR because it's just not the game for them, but a lack of content shouldn't be on that list. There are 8 class stories to play through, which I plan to, and that'll take me 8 months more than likely. There's more flashpoints than most MMO's, if not all have after years of being released. The game already has 2 Operations.
As for PvP, there needs to be more warzones and a way to que up for the ones you want to run. Open world PvP is being worked on and is more than most MMO's offer.
I'm happy with the game. It's not my ideal MMO, but for what it is, I enjoy it.
Okay so I'm hearing a lot of reports from players saying that they like TOR but they don't want to stay subbed to it, or that they are going to cancel and resub back to the game when they've added more content/fixed issues.
DON'T DO THAT.
EA/Bioware spent a lot of money on SW:TOR, I'm hearing estimates around $300 million or so, that's the most money a company has ever tossed at the MMO industry. You WANT them to toss money at us. However in order to cover such a big investment, Bioware needs an evern bigger return, and that's where the MMO community comes in. Unlike other gaming industries, MMOs need to establish a relationship with the playerbase to keep making money, and lately that relationship as soured. A lot of developers think the MMO community has turned into a bunch of loud-mouth, lazy, fickle bunch of spoiled brats.
Regardless of what developers opinions of gamers might be, we pay their salaries and fund future development. So, if a company wants to have the promise of being able to develop in the future, they need to innovate and give players a variety. The problem with the industry is that developers and investors are too scared to innovate, and players are tired of the same crap being done over and over again. If developers refuse to innovate, then players are obivoulsy going to be less willing to part with their money. This is called a free market economy.
We need to change our ways and have more realistic expectations of new MMOs if the industry is going to survive.
I disagree, and especially if the $150-$300 million figure is accurate. They've had plenty of time and plenty of money to iron out these kinks, and players are within their rights and justified in leaving if they choose to do so.
1.) We need to understand that a game that just launched is simply not going to have as much end-game content as a game that's been out for over a 1-6years.
See previous comment about time and money.
2.) We need to understand that if we want new content, we have to pay for it. If you like the game but want more content, unsubbing isn't going to help, but only make things worse.
I disagree, I cite the amount of money that was spend on this game again, and also there are plenty of examples of companies who provide expansions and additions without additional cost to players.
3.) We really need to stop comparing everything to WoW. I think this is self-explanitory.
Wow is the 'it' game currently, so it is the only game alot of people have to compare new games to.
4.) We really need to stop wishing every MMO that's not your kind of MMO will fail. Just because I might not like that style of MMO doesn't mean that it should fail, and nobody be allowed to play it.
This is a realtive argument, but I take offense to it. Firstly because the style of game that SWTOR is has been dominant in the industry at least since 2004 (thats 8 years). Secondly, people are becoming tired of tired of that design, and if SWTOR is a huge smash success, it does nothing but give impetus to future game development and investors. Therefore, if your one that wishes for something different, SWTOR can't be a huge success, otherwise we will continue to get more of the same.
I'm not a SW:TOR fanboy, I'm just concerned what will happen to the industry if a huge financial investment like TOR can't buy its way into the market. I can imagine that it's failure will create another black hole, similiar to Warhammer, where the industry was stuck in the dark ages of bad mmos for another 2-3 years. Or even worse, MMOs turn out to be an unprofitable fad and they pull the plug like they did with the Guitar Hero type games.
I disagree, and emphasize the opposite. SWTOR is the epitome of the "dark age of bad MMOs", because, while it might not be a clone of WOW, it builds on the bad aspects of WOW. Also, see my previous comment about why SWTOR can't become a success.
So in conclusion if you do like Star Wars: The Old Republc, give them your money. TOR may not be the best game in the market, or any good at all, but it's definitely super expensive, and it's new, and EA gets really mad if they don't get paid. We want to keep the relationship between MMO companies and communities good, or they might pull out and go make cheap browser games or something.
I don't like SWTOR, so I won't be giving them my money, but that's a relative viewpoint. However, if BioWare or EA, or any other developer can't produce a game that people want, that is their fault. I don't suspect someone would support a game based on the fact that it uses a certain IP, because it's new, or because the developer gets mad if they don't get paid. These are not my problems. If the development of MMOs suffers it is dually because developers are too scared to take chances and innovate, and because gamers blindly throw money at lackluster games.
Additionally, the relationship between developer and community should grow out of mutual respect, not because of some theoretically bad outcome which forces it.
Since you all like to compare and this is just my personal opinion, Wow was a boring and uninspired EQ clone at launch featureless and shallow only after 10years development is it ok. I was actually happy to ditch 60gigs worth of wow files in favor of Swtor.
On a slightly related note, I almost never looked up at the gates of ironforge in the early days as I did within the first day of Vanguard and thought wow truely awesome artwork while staring up at the gates of their dwarven city. Random comparison i know, but again, the point is, Wow was nothing special to write home about in its first week and 1/1000 of the fun.
Everyone leaves out AO... This game was (IMO) a successful mix of Themepark and Sandbox (if you survived the launch).
They also had a mission generator mechanic that worked. This is something that really hasn't seen alot of duplication in AAA MMO's and that's unfortunate because with tweaks it could be an incredible content mechanic.
Damn fine game with some really novell concepts that have not been exploited since. I hope secret world is more AO than AoC, it looks like it mighty be somewhat mold breaking.
We shouldn't support it, we shouldn't because it lack any and all form of innovation. Everything in the game except the story and dialogue feels exactly like every other MMO I've played.
It's so horribly unambitious, you support this and more MMO's with the same boring style will emerge. Don't support it and they will need to innovate.
Why do you think the only thing ever happening on the FPS side of the industry only has to do with same old copy paste CoD bullshit?
Since you all like to compare and this is just my personal opinion, Wow was a boring and uninspired EQ clone at launch featureless and shallow only after 10years development is it ok. I was actually happy to ditch 60gigs worth of wow files in favor of Swtor.
On a slightly related note, I almost never looked up at the gates of ironforge in the early days as I did within the first day of Vanguard and thought wow truely awesome artwork while staring up at the gates of their dwarven city. Random comparison i know, but again, the point is, Wow was nothing special to write home about in its first week and 1/1000 of the fun.
Well I don't like Wow either, I loathe Themeparks. However I tried to achieve some level of subjectivity.
The EU players already voted with their wallet and canceled their subs.
Just check on the server loads during EU primetime. Most of the EU servers don't go beyond Standard anymore.
The EU PVE-RP server used to be full with queues merely two weeks ago and now it hardly gets to even Heavy anymore.
Well I did, I feel that strongly about it. I am still playing until the sub runs out. Hopefully they will pay attention to exit polls even if they ignore the thousands and thousands of plees in the official forums.
As to the OP I completely disagree for reasons that have already been mentioned. If you really want to support them buy ERTS stock.
If BioWare, Star Wars and $130 million fails to replicate WoW's success... maybe... just maybe... we'll see the end of these banal two faction WoW clone linear themeparks. Burn, SWTOR, burn!
Now this is what I don't understand. I've seen people and posts here who're almost drooling at the thought of SWTOR and other traditional themepark MMO's fail or burn, as if they're using up all the air and leave no room for other styles of MMO's. While reality is different, and for those people paying attention, it should be clear that there are already all kinds of different types of AAA MMO's coming, regardless whether SWTOR and Rift and other themepark MMO's are successful or not.
The Secret World: themepark MMO, but no classes and levels, no gear stats, different not-before-seen type of questing and other interesting different features
GW2: themepark MMO, but what I'd consider the next evolution or 2.0 themepark design
ArcheAge: themepark/sandbox hybrid, possibly the first, at least the only AAA one of the past 7 years
Firefall and Planetside 2: both MMOFPS
And already in development, World of Darkness and Undead Labs' zombie MMO that will be different and certainly not traditional themepark design
All these are already coming out, different types of MMO's that'll exist next to themepark MMO's. So why do people feel there can only be one successful design, and that for a different MMO to be successful, all MMO's of another design style have to fail and burn? Makes no sense to me at all, this kind of black and white thinking.
Answer:
Star Wars has a lot of fans that come in a vast range of variety. This vast range of fan variety... will voice this opinion of wanting TOR to "burn burn burn", because many of them didn't want the new (post-SWG) MMORPG to be a themepark game. They wanted more out of STar Wars.
Since you all like to compare and this is just my personal opinion, Wow was a boring and uninspired EQ clone at launch featureless and shallow only after 10years development is it ok. I was actually happy to ditch 60gigs worth of wow files in favor of Swtor.
On a slightly related note, I almost never looked up at the gates of ironforge in the early days as I did within the first day of Vanguard and thought wow truely awesome artwork while staring up at the gates of their dwarven city. Random comparison i know, but again, the point is, Wow was nothing special to write home about in its first week and 1/1000 of the fun.
Anybody who actually played WoW would not say WoW was simply a featureless EQ clone. WoW improved almost every aspects of MMO genre. For one, WoW at the time (and arguably still do) had top notch gameplay and UI. Default UI was clean and functional, and is infinitely moddable. Animations were fluid and classes were simply designed much better than previously; for one, Classes in WoW showed that any character classes can have active combat without the endless auto attack grind that plagued previous MMOs.
Questing was another huge thing that was "revolutionized" by WoW at the time. Almost every MMO before it required you to grind mobs endlessly. WoW introduced thousands of quests to allow players to have more "fun" while leveling. Not to mention every class was capable of soloing to max level, which was unheard of in many of previous MMOs.
Compare that to SW:ToR. It hasn't really improved anything much, other than voice acting which is really a novelty.
Since you all like to compare and this is just my personal opinion, Wow was a boring and uninspired EQ clone at launch featureless and shallow only after 10years development is it ok. I was actually happy to ditch 60gigs worth of wow files in favor of Swtor.
On a slightly related note, I almost never looked up at the gates of ironforge in the early days as I did within the first day of Vanguard and thought wow truely awesome artwork while staring up at the gates of their dwarven city. Random comparison i know, but again, the point is, Wow was nothing special to write home about in its first week and 1/1000 of the fun.
Anybody who actually played WoW would not say WoW was simply a featureless EQ clone. WoW improved almost every aspects of MMO genre. For one, WoW at the time (and arguably still do) had top notch gameplay and UI. Default UI was clean and functional, and is infinitely moddable. Animations were fluid and classes were simply designed much better than previously; for one, Classes in WoW showed that any character classes can have active combat without the endless auto attack grind that plagued previous MMOs.
Questing was another huge thing that was "revolutionized" by WoW at the time. Almost every MMO before it required you to grind mobs endlessly. WoW introduced thousands of quests to allow players to have more "fun" while leveling. Not to mention every class was capable of soloing to max level, which was unheard of in many of previous MMOs.
Compare that to SW:ToR. It hasn't really improved anything much, other than voice acting which is really a novelty.
I'm sorry, if I am not having fun playing a game I will not continue to pay for it. Its not like a new job where you gotta give it a chance and see if it works out. It's entertainment, if you're entertained you play, if you're not, you don't!
People treat MMOs way to much like a life choice rather than an entertainment option.
Since you all like to compare and this is just my personal opinion, Wow was a boring and uninspired EQ clone at launch featureless and shallow only after 10years development is it ok. I was actually happy to ditch 60gigs worth of wow files in favor of Swtor.
On a slightly related note, I almost never looked up at the gates of ironforge in the early days as I did within the first day of Vanguard and thought wow truely awesome artwork while staring up at the gates of their dwarven city. Random comparison i know, but again, the point is, Wow was nothing special to write home about in its first week and 1/1000 of the fun.
Anybody who actually played WoW would not say WoW was simply a featureless EQ clone. WoW improved almost every aspects of MMO genre. For one, WoW at the time (and arguably still do) had top notch gameplay and UI. Default UI was clean and functional, and is infinitely moddable. Animations were fluid and classes were simply designed much better than previously; for one, Classes in WoW showed that any character classes can have active combat without the endless auto attack grind that plagued previous MMOs.
Questing was another huge thing that was "revolutionized" by WoW at the time. Almost every MMO before it required you to grind mobs endlessly. WoW introduced thousands of quests to allow players to have more "fun" while leveling. Not to mention every class was capable of soloing to max level, which was unheard of in many of previous MMOs.
Compare that to SW:ToR. It hasn't really improved anything much, other than voice acting which is really a novelty.
When did you started to play WoW? 2010?
Sorry, but he is right. I have nothing with WoW anymore... for years. But I did play and enjoyed it from 2004 till 2006.
The only reason anyone should continue to support any game is because it is enjoyable and fun to them.
If enough people like it to barely keep it alive or make it a huge success, then they will have something to entertain themselves with for a time, and someone somewhere will make money because of it.
Success in this industry isn't determined by one "community" it is determined by a consumer market. Either people pay for the product or they don't.
Noone is going to sub to this game (or any other) indefinitely just to influence the direction of future games. Consumers don't care how much this game cost to make. They only care about the value it holds for them.
Originally I thought I would hate SWTOR, but it grew on me, because hell no elves in sight. A lot of love went into it, respect it.
That's where I heavily disagree. I don't think any love went into TOR and that's part of the problem for me. It feels so very 'by the numbers', very dry and empty, it lacks any 'soul'. If they loved what they were creating they would have added little touches here and there, like things to make you go 'ooh', something to make you realise that whoever created this game wanted it to look and feel just right.
But it doesn't. The cities are empty, lifeless places, the npc's are static and silent, there are no little creatures that skitter about, no flocks of birds passing overhead, no immersive sounds. Again, it simply lacks soul. What actually went into making this game was a lot of WORK, but love? No.. there was no love.
Comments
The money argument does not hold water with me at all. Pouring money into something does not equal succes and I would like to ask:
Where did all the money go ?
You have a AAA MMO launch without many standard features MMOs have, flawed graphics ( no high rez ) and just vanilla themepark gameplay....
So you spent how much on voiceovers ??
I think TOR should be supported if you like the game, if you don't then don't support it. I hope it succeeds and I certainly hope to return, but until they fix/finish some of the issues they have, my money they shall not get.
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What do you mean "as good as it is going to get" ? RIFT had a solid launch also. Now, I am very glad to see that MMOs are launching without major issues and in a playable state, but TOR is not alone in that category. Remember a few years ago ? With unplayable, unfinished disaster launches ( vanguard comes to mind, AOC also ) ... at least we have seen improvements since then.
It just amazes me that we as MMO enthusiasts settle for crap so often, that a smooth launch is such a big deal... they all should be smooth and games should launch playable and in good working condition overall. Then we could all concentratie on the real issue, the content and design of the gameplay and if we like it or not.
I feel like with the MMO industry history of disaster launches, we now think a great game is one that launches smoothly... that should be the case with EVERY game.
I dont know if thats the only reason, I think these developers should concentrate on what that particular gaming audience actually wants rather than try cut and paste tactics on a game. For instance if I were a dev and got permission somehow to do a Zelda mmorpg for Nentindo there is abosolutely no way on gods green earth I am making that a Sandbox. That fiction is hand made to be set to a dungeon crawling 5 + man grouping puzzle rpg game. And most of all thats what the fanbase of the fiction and previous games would expect. But what if it were say Blade Runner or Eldar Scrolls, do you think those fan bases would happily accept a game with no personal freedom and a totally linear world, and just try to picture 10 man raids in Blade Runner the mmorpg, makes you a bit weezy in the stomach doesn't it? Thats exactly the feeling you get as a Star Wars fan and seeing this game. It doen't offer what you expect from the Star Wars universe it offers you what EA games wanted it to offer, a Themepark Cash cow. That is the problem with the game it didn't have to be a Themepark, Sandbox etc, it had to be the Star Wars game the fans wanted.
When I think of Star Wars as an mmorpg with a blank slate and no backdrop of previous mmorpgs,I think of a game thats somewhere between pirate galaxy and Anarchy online with Moderate crafting, things like droid building, ship design lots of non combat tech trees EVE esqe and plenty of talents and or skills to use. Factions yes but not set varied and many and joinable. Its a combination of Economy, political power moves and faction warfare but not just one, certainly not a battleground game with dungeons and the My Buddy system.
I say support it if you like it, it might improve.
If BioWare, Star Wars and $130 million fails to replicate WoW's success... maybe... just maybe... we'll see the end of these banal two faction WoW clone linear themeparks. Burn, SWTOR, burn!
Quoted for the truth.
I'm not gonna give my money for some half assed mmo project that bores the crap out of me when I play it. We do NOT pay for mediocre games when we can get those for free. If they want us to pay, they better deliver something worth paying for !!
Personally I will not even concider subscribing until they perform seperate EU maintenance (at night). It's an apalling business decision. Every one knows to maximise revenue you need to maximise the availibility of your service to as many paying subscribers as possible. I am of a mind that not only should EU players not support this bussiness decision they should send a clear message it is un acepatble.
As for the game it's nowhere near as 'ready' as Rift, LotRO or eve DAoC where at launch. There is easily fixible stuff like the GTN (Glactic Trade Network) interface that simply should not have made it into production, its got to be a 'place holder' right? Then there is stuff that will be tricky to fix that stem back to the engine they chose (ability delay, fps issues etc.) These things that are major issues to some are likely to tkae months if not years of tweaking, optomising and generly tarting up core code. This game is more AoC than it is Rift.
Incidentally I am still finding the game fun though (so far) tend to be bored of characters around the end of Act I. Maybe I just have not found my archetype yet.
The EU players already voted with their wallet and canceled their subs.
Just check on the server loads during EU primetime. Most of the EU servers don't go beyond Standard anymore.
The EU PVE-RP server used to be full with queues merely two weeks ago and now it hardly gets to even Heavy anymore.
Nothing in this game is worth subbing to.
Hurry GW2 and save me from the shit that is all the mmos out right now.
Now this is what I don't understand. I've seen people and posts here who're almost drooling at the thought of SWTOR and other traditional themepark MMO's fail or burn, as if they're using up all the air and leave no room for other styles of MMO's. While reality is different, and for those people paying attention, it should be clear that there are already all kinds of different types of AAA MMO's coming, regardless whether SWTOR and Rift and other themepark MMO's are successful or not.
The Secret World: themepark MMO, but no classes and levels, no gear stats, different not-before-seen type of questing and other interesting different features
GW2: themepark MMO, but what I'd consider the next evolution or 2.0 themepark design
ArcheAge: themepark/sandbox hybrid, possibly the first, at least the only AAA one of the past 7 years
Firefall and Planetside 2: both MMOFPS
And already in development, World of Darkness and Undead Labs' zombie MMO that will be different and certainly not traditional themepark designAll these are already coming out, different types of MMO's that'll exist next to themepark MMO's. So why do people feel there can only be one successful design, and that for a different MMO to be successful, all MMO's of another design style have to fail and burn? Makes no sense to me at all, this kind of black and white thinking.
Now this is a downright lie or wishful thinking dream. I checked as recently as yesterday, and saw about 70 of the 90 servers that were heavy or higher status on a weekday evening. Besides that, status 'full' and other status categories have been changed what they mean over the course of weeks with their incremental raising of the population cap. I'm not saying that there won't be people playing less hours and such, but at least let's keep it real without fabrications. Personally I think that after Jan 20th will draw a clearer picture, how people voted with their wallet.As for the OP, people should play whatever game they enjoy to play. If someone likes SWTOR, play it and sub for as long as he's having fun, if someone doesn't, don't play it and move on to a game that he wants to play or wait until it arrives while doing something else.
This, everyone seems to forget that when wow came out it was shoddy featureless waste of space, I think I played a weeks worth from launch was lvl 40 and bored, it was a 40$ donkey which had me cryin ehorhhh by the end of the week. I left it and went back to EQ2, only trying it again on the recomendation of a friends son three or so years later. If you had all turned tail and run back then Wow would have gone down in flames.
Since the advent of the internet I don't think I've seen a single game launch that hasn't required patching post release. Life is too easy now, there was a time you had to order a 3.5 floppy from a developer if you wanted a patch to fix issues. Even console titles have patches.
Originally I thought I would hate SWTOR, but it grew on me, because hell no elves in sight. A lot of love went into it, respect it. They fix problems almost every other day, yes its annoying and I just want to play, but I can live with it so long as a better prodduct is there in the end. Same thing happened in every other game! Some things only come to light in live, you can test with a test server only so much, but hell developers are only human. Only when you give your product to the masses and say there you go, now see if you can break it, do you actually get a true test. When a thousand people test you might get some issues. When a million exploiters get a hold of your product with the single aim to get the most, find the most, win the most, do you truely see where the flaws lie. I'll give them credit, if the worst exploit/bug to appear involves getting down with a boss, life isn't that bad.
The answer really is simple to quote a wise old master, Bioware gives you a choice. Play or don't play, pay or don't pay, Do or do not.
I can understand people not liking SWTOR because it's just not the game for them, but a lack of content shouldn't be on that list. There are 8 class stories to play through, which I plan to, and that'll take me 8 months more than likely. There's more flashpoints than most MMO's, if not all have after years of being released. The game already has 2 Operations.
As for PvP, there needs to be more warzones and a way to que up for the ones you want to run. Open world PvP is being worked on and is more than most MMO's offer.
I'm happy with the game. It's not my ideal MMO, but for what it is, I enjoy it.
Since you all like to compare and this is just my personal opinion, Wow was a boring and uninspired EQ clone at launch featureless and shallow only after 10years development is it ok. I was actually happy to ditch 60gigs worth of wow files in favor of Swtor.
On a slightly related note, I almost never looked up at the gates of ironforge in the early days as I did within the first day of Vanguard and thought wow truely awesome artwork while staring up at the gates of their dwarven city. Random comparison i know, but again, the point is, Wow was nothing special to write home about in its first week and 1/1000 of the fun.
Damn fine game with some really novell concepts that have not been exploited since. I hope secret world is more AO than AoC, it looks like it mighty be somewhat mold breaking.
We shouldn't support it, we shouldn't because it lack any and all form of innovation. Everything in the game except the story and dialogue feels exactly like every other MMO I've played.
It's so horribly unambitious, you support this and more MMO's with the same boring style will emerge. Don't support it and they will need to innovate.
Why do you think the only thing ever happening on the FPS side of the industry only has to do with same old copy paste CoD bullshit?
Well I don't like Wow either, I loathe Themeparks. However I tried to achieve some level of subjectivity.
Well I did, I feel that strongly about it. I am still playing until the sub runs out. Hopefully they will pay attention to exit polls even if they ignore the thousands and thousands of plees in the official forums.
As to the OP I completely disagree for reasons that have already been mentioned. If you really want to support them buy ERTS stock.
Answer:
Star Wars has a lot of fans that come in a vast range of variety. This vast range of fan variety... will voice this opinion of wanting TOR to "burn burn burn", because many of them didn't want the new (post-SWG) MMORPG to be a themepark game. They wanted more out of STar Wars.
Anybody who actually played WoW would not say WoW was simply a featureless EQ clone. WoW improved almost every aspects of MMO genre. For one, WoW at the time (and arguably still do) had top notch gameplay and UI. Default UI was clean and functional, and is infinitely moddable. Animations were fluid and classes were simply designed much better than previously; for one, Classes in WoW showed that any character classes can have active combat without the endless auto attack grind that plagued previous MMOs.
Questing was another huge thing that was "revolutionized" by WoW at the time. Almost every MMO before it required you to grind mobs endlessly. WoW introduced thousands of quests to allow players to have more "fun" while leveling. Not to mention every class was capable of soloing to max level, which was unheard of in many of previous MMOs.
Compare that to SW:ToR. It hasn't really improved anything much, other than voice acting which is really a novelty.
When did you started to play WoW? 2010?
I'm sorry, if I am not having fun playing a game I will not continue to pay for it. Its not like a new job where you gotta give it a chance and see if it works out. It's entertainment, if you're entertained you play, if you're not, you don't!
People treat MMOs way to much like a life choice rather than an entertainment option.
Sorry, but he is right. I have nothing with WoW anymore... for years. But I did play and enjoyed it from 2004 till 2006.
If enough people like it to barely keep it alive or make it a huge success, then they will have something to entertain themselves with for a time, and someone somewhere will make money because of it.
Success in this industry isn't determined by one "community" it is determined by a consumer market. Either people pay for the product or they don't.
Noone is going to sub to this game (or any other) indefinitely just to influence the direction of future games. Consumers don't care how much this game cost to make. They only care about the value it holds for them.
Shadow's Hand Guild
Open recruitment for
The Secret World - Dragons
Planetside 2 - Terran Republic
Tera - Dragonfall Server
http://www.shadowshand.com
That's where I heavily disagree. I don't think any love went into TOR and that's part of the problem for me. It feels so very 'by the numbers', very dry and empty, it lacks any 'soul'. If they loved what they were creating they would have added little touches here and there, like things to make you go 'ooh', something to make you realise that whoever created this game wanted it to look and feel just right.
But it doesn't. The cities are empty, lifeless places, the npc's are static and silent, there are no little creatures that skitter about, no flocks of birds passing overhead, no immersive sounds. Again, it simply lacks soul. What actually went into making this game was a lot of WORK, but love? No.. there was no love.