You're sort of contradicting yourself. You say you want competitive gameplay, yet say you need gear progression. Gear progressions is the exact opposite of competitive, it allows you to steamroll anyone who is weaker than you. It doesn't matter how skilled they are, how well they know their class, and how much you suck comparatively, just have better gear and you win. That's not competition.
Competitive gameplay is a matter of skill. It's chess, its martial arts, most sports, etc. It's when people get together and are judged based on their skill. That is competition. What you are asking for isn't the option to be competitive, what you want is to grind to the point that you no longer have to be; to get to the point where everyone by default will lose because they do 1 damage and you do 1000.
Call it like it is.
You must have missed the part where I said I no longer play that much and still enjoy facing competition with better gear / skill then myself. Competitive dosent have to be perfect, or 100% fair. Maybe in your mind.
Its okay though I expected these types of repsonses.
If you believe that if you have the same skill set as the next character who plays your profession you will end in stalemate, then you have never truly PVPed. There will always be players that have the upper hand, because they know how to play that character with a particular skill better than the next person, or they know the combinations of a set of skills thats different that whats posted online.
" there will always be a mountain higher than the next mountain " Even when the playfield is leveled, its not leveled, there will always be someone that is better than you and you better than them, Thats competition, and without gear progressions, you know why you win, and you know why you lost.
In previous MMO's , when a team lose, you always hear people saying how that other team was more geared, they got a healer, they got more dps, they got more tanks. Now everyone is a tank, everyone is a healer, everyone can be a dps. All depends on your skills you choosen before you started your pvp games. No more excuses, its either you are better than that other player or you aren't. And with that, you will be pvping everyday, hoping to get online to try your new combo moves, and get your name out there as the best pvper on your server.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
I like the fact people will be same level with PvP since then it wont be about the gear but how well you play the class. I don't know guess I would rather it be an even fight rather then a roll over. I also agree that vanilla WoW PvP was fun because you actually had to work very hard to obtain the gear unlike today where it's obtained with little effort.
On the other hand, I remember playing Vanilla WoW battlegrounds and being able to wipe the floor with Tier 2 rogues while I was in Stormshroud Armor. It was my favorite thing to do. Gear didn't mean nearly as much in those days as it has from BC onward. We've got Arenas and Resilience to thank for that, and while I did try arena for a while, I wasn't willing to "find the right comp" and/or play with people I hated just so I could win. In Vanilla, yes, PVP gear existed, no, it wasn't any better than PVE gear, so everything was fine.
I shared some of the OP's concerns before I realized that I only stopped PVPing seriously in Warcraft when PVP gear was introduced. I still do it from time to time, but here's the funny thing about that: I grind my way up to the best possible gear I can get, and then I stop PVPing.
I have never understood the idea of gear-based PVP. How many of you play fighting games and turn the handicap in your favor vs. friends who haven't been playing for as long? How about if we were to give professional Starcraft 2 players extra building resources if their rank is higher than their opponent's? Or maybe extra chess pieces for the higher-ranked chess player? Extra fielded players on a sports team for the highest ranked? It makes no sense!
If anything, it should be the complete opposite. Give an advantage to the person with less skill, less time behind the wheel, and help them to keep up. Think you're hot shit? Step up and prove it. This is why we have "Hard Mode" in games - to challenge ourselves. You could say I'm in it for the bragging rights, and "PVP Gear" removed that in Warcraft. I look forward to GW2 PVP because I know that whatever 'rank' I end up with is the one I earned through my own personal skill, and it hasn't been artificially augmented by anything.
Haven't followed Guild Wars 2 much but after reading this thread I'd rather play Tribes or Quakes. I'm sure i can find more competitive "PvP" in these games. I play MMO's for the adrenaline and player politics that come from open world PvP. Grind isn't bad either for the little dopamine rush you get from new gear
There isn't an MMO that requires a substantial amount of skill and we wont see that for a long time (Planetside might be an exception).
I hate bringing up WoW, but the OP sure sounds like a WoW player looking for his WoW clone. Its not here!!!
Seriously, you want to have the advantage because you spent more time grinding????? So you admit that your are afraid of a player with skill, amirite!!
You know, I was completly ready for this, I knew we get these spoiled players in here complaining, already. But I am still amazed at the twisted logic used to defend thier arguments, its like I losing my mind, can people really be this !!!!!
I did my best to refrain the first 5 people that made a similar comment, this time ill bite. I used wow as one referance in only one of my posts and just as an example because it was a time when gear was powerfull and required alot of work.
I stopped playing WoW before WOTLK if you must know.
Ive played every major mmo thats come out in the last 10 years and I draw my conclusions and opinions based on all of those games and the reoccuring trends I see popping up in mmos.
Really why post this nonsense, I havent been hot headed or rude, I asked a question ... probably not a very informed one, but something that concerned me.
Sorry dude, guess I'm getting cranky in my old age...
Its just that uber gear, has been proven to be a game breaker. Time online = uber gear has also been proven to be a game breaker. Most MMO players understand this, the ones that like it that way, are usually not nice people, from my experience.
I think GW2 has listen to the players, we now have a system that doesnt punish players for NOT being online 24/7, gives equal time to PvE and PvP players, and tops it off with 1000's of skill combinations.
None of which, trumps actual player skill, and that is the best thing of all!!
Dont know if this has been answered but do we know any facts about what ranking systems etc will be in place? Do we get any kind of rank for WvWvW? Like realm rank in DAOC. Or atleast a KD counter like AOC had?
Haven't followed Guild Wars 2 much but after reading this thread I'd rather play Tribes or Quakes. I'm sure i can find more competitive "PvP" in these games. I play MMO's for the adrenaline and player politics that come from open world PvP. Grind isn't bad either for the little dopamine rush you get from new gear
There isn't an MMO that requires a substantial amount of skill and we wont see that for a long time (Planetside might be an exception).
This conversation is about the arena pvp system. You should check out GWII WvW pvp system which is much more like what you enjoy.
Seriously now...why on earth ppl are so reticent to something new and pretty obvious better?
To become competitive is equal to grind like a mindless robot for a piece of gear?? really:)?
Dnt u had enough ot those players , that often made the mistake to think that having a better gear or much more time to spend in a boring pvp grind , doesn't make them a better pvper but only a guy with pathetic ego?
Please, please. take away this mentality that encourages selfishness and let the concept of teamworking, smart ideeas and good strategies win, not that piece of crap named gear...
U can try become a good pvper buy learning to play smarter against same geared players, thats fair, not seeking advantages over others from grinding(or spending rl money as in f2p goes).
Do u really feel good if u can beat a 5 yo kid just because ur 15yo and u have a bigger stick??:) think about pvp in the same way..maybe u'll find out the problem in this kind of satisfaction.
Didn't read all the posts but from what I've seen GW2 PVP will be more like a MOBA as is Bloodline Champions than a regular MMORPG. Just looking at the 5 skill set bar gives that up.
Because the game is B2p it doesnt need boring and mindless grind mechanics. You play it for fun not to grind and grind endlessly to Maybe become viable. Your viable in pvp right from the moment you step on the battlefield. Makes the game more about tactics and good skill use rather than "bob has 1million resillience and is unkillable by anyone except those that are maxed out." I rather have a strategic/skill based pvp experience than another wow-esque one where your 2 shot if you dont have the best gear.
TL:DR B2P doesnt need endless time sinks to maintain maximum subs.
Well ill be honest I havent really looked too deeply into this game so I may very well be missing something.
From what I read though when playing battlegrounds (or whatever gw2 happens to call them) all players have the same access to the exact same gear, skills etc. This to me is kind of concerning. I pretty much strictly PvP in mmo's. Pretty much the only reason I play is that I like to spend time working on my char so that I can go pvp. If theres no incentive to get gear and improve my character I find it hard to believe it will keep me intereseted in the long term.
I realize there will be world pvp and such, but lets face it an a modern day mmo after the initial leveling phase the bulk of your time pvping is in battlegrounds.
I also realize that with experience I will get better and have a competitive edge of players in that sense, I just worry there wont be much incentive or ways to work on your character to gain a bit of an advantage.
To me thats just the way it should go, the people that work hard for the gear deserve the advantage it gives.
I myself made the grind to Warlord back in Vanilla WoW and man it was fun and really added another element meeting up with very powerfull players. Im now more of a casual gamer, play a few hours when I can squeeze it in (family, life, work, you know) but I still feeel the same way. Its fun for me to face someone more experienced with better gear, it makes me better and gives me something to work towards.
Honestly I think thats what plagues alot of mmo's people are such whiners when it comes to balance. Games need a sense of randomness and hell even a bit of unfairness at times.
Also I think people are fooling themselves if they dont think that 95% of the players will be wearing the EXACT same gear and skills. People always fall into that cookie cutter mentality. Is this games battlegrounds seriously going to be filled with classes all wearing identical gear?
In WvW, outgearing an opponent will be possible, especially if you're higher level. In Structured PvP (arenas) however, all gear is created equal. This system will inherently weed out the good PvPers from the bads...as gear will no longer be a factor. And if we're being honest, I doubt gear will be a huge advantage even in WvW. At the end of the day, who wants to grind for ages just to be competative in PvP? In GW2, you can just jump in and let your skill do the talking.
You miss the point of the OP. The progression of your character is something that many people expect from RPGs. For some players, great many of them, the ability to improve your character over time with gear is the main reason they enjoy RPGs or MMORPGs. If they wanted play a "player skill" based game, they would choose a game in some other genre, like FPSs or RTSs. In RPGs, they expect to be able to get stronger the more time they spend on it. You advance your character with many hurdless that give you an ample reward at the end, without the reward it would feel shallow.
For this type of player, the lack of progression replaced with a "player skill"-based system, will be a major downside regardless whether you do not think it is important for you. I don't personally hold gear in such a high regard, but it is still nice to be able to improve your character in meaningful way in a RPG.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Well ill be honest I havent really looked too deeply into this game so I may very well be missing something.
From what I read though when playing battlegrounds (or whatever gw2 happens to call them) all players have the same access to the exact same gear, skills etc. This to me is kind of concerning. I pretty much strictly PvP in mmo's. Pretty much the only reason I play is that I like to spend time working on my char so that I can go pvp. If theres no incentive to get gear and improve my character I find it hard to believe it will keep me intereseted in the long term.
I realize there will be world pvp and such, but lets face it an a modern day mmo after the initial leveling phase the bulk of your time pvping is in battlegrounds.
I also realize that with experience I will get better and have a competitive edge of players in that sense, I just worry there wont be much incentive or ways to work on your character to gain a bit of an advantage.
To me thats just the way it should go, the people that work hard for the gear deserve the advantage it gives.
I myself made the grind to Warlord back in Vanilla WoW and man it was fun and really added another element meeting up with very powerfull players. Im now more of a casual gamer, play a few hours when I can squeeze it in (family, life, work, you know) but I still feeel the same way. Its fun for me to face someone more experienced with better gear, it makes me better and gives me something to work towards.
Honestly I think thats what plagues alot of mmo's people are such whiners when it comes to balance. Games need a sense of randomness and hell even a bit of unfairness at times.
Also I think people are fooling themselves if they dont think that 95% of the players will be wearing the EXACT same gear and skills. People always fall into that cookie cutter mentality. Is this games battlegrounds seriously going to be filled with classes all wearing identical gear?
In WvW, outgearing an opponent will be possible, especially if you're higher level. In Structured PvP (arenas) however, all gear is created equal. This system will inherently weed out the good PvPers from the bads...as gear will no longer be a factor. And if we're being honest, I doubt gear will be a huge advantage even in WvW. At the end of the day, who wants to grind for ages just to be competative in PvP? In GW2, you can just jump in and let your skill do the talking.
You miss the point of the OP. The progression of your character is something that many people expect from RPGs. For some players, great many of them, the ability to improve your character over time with gear is the main reason they enjoy RPGs or MMORPGs. If they wanted play a "player skill" based game, they would choose a game in some other genre, like FPSs or RTSs. In RPGs, they expect to be able to get stronger the more time they spend on it. You advance your character with many hurdless that give you an ample reward at the end, without the reward it would feel shallow.
For this type of player, the lack of progression replaced with a "player skill"-based system, will be a major downside regardless whether you do not think it is important for you. I don't personally hold gear in such a high regard, but it is still nice to be able to improve your character in meaningful way in a RPG.
Then just have then go play ANY other mmo. They dont have to play gw2 and when they want "player skill" they can play something else.
Well ill be honest I havent really looked too deeply into this game so I may very well be missing something.
From what I read though when playing battlegrounds (or whatever gw2 happens to call them) all players have the same access to the exact same gear, skills etc. This to me is kind of concerning. I pretty much strictly PvP in mmo's. Pretty much the only reason I play is that I like to spend time working on my char so that I can go pvp. If theres no incentive to get gear and improve my character I find it hard to believe it will keep me intereseted in the long term.
I realize there will be world pvp and such, but lets face it an a modern day mmo after the initial leveling phase the bulk of your time pvping is in battlegrounds.
I also realize that with experience I will get better and have a competitive edge of players in that sense, I just worry there wont be much incentive or ways to work on your character to gain a bit of an advantage.
To me thats just the way it should go, the people that work hard for the gear deserve the advantage it gives.
I myself made the grind to Warlord back in Vanilla WoW and man it was fun and really added another element meeting up with very powerfull players. Im now more of a casual gamer, play a few hours when I can squeeze it in (family, life, work, you know) but I still feeel the same way. Its fun for me to face someone more experienced with better gear, it makes me better and gives me something to work towards.
Honestly I think thats what plagues alot of mmo's people are such whiners when it comes to balance. Games need a sense of randomness and hell even a bit of unfairness at times.
Also I think people are fooling themselves if they dont think that 95% of the players will be wearing the EXACT same gear and skills. People always fall into that cookie cutter mentality. Is this games battlegrounds seriously going to be filled with classes all wearing identical gear?
In WvW, outgearing an opponent will be possible, especially if you're higher level. In Structured PvP (arenas) however, all gear is created equal. This system will inherently weed out the good PvPers from the bads...as gear will no longer be a factor. And if we're being honest, I doubt gear will be a huge advantage even in WvW. At the end of the day, who wants to grind for ages just to be competative in PvP? In GW2, you can just jump in and let your skill do the talking.
You miss the point of the OP. The progression of your character is something that many people expect from RPGs. For some players, great many of them, the ability to improve your character over time with gear is the main reason they enjoy RPGs or MMORPGs. If they wanted play a "player skill" based game, they would choose a game in some other genre, like FPSs or RTSs. In RPGs, they expect to be able to get stronger the more time they spend on it. You advance your character with many hurdless that give you an ample reward at the end, without the reward it would feel shallow.
For this type of player, the lack of progression replaced with a "player skill"-based system, will be a major downside regardless whether you do not think it is important for you. I don't personally hold gear in such a high regard, but it is still nice to be able to improve your character in meaningful way in a RPG.
Character progression can be experienced through many different avenue's in the game. Titles. Achievements. Gear. Unlocking skills and traits. PVP included will most likely have a character progression in the form of PVP achievements/titles. Having a super hard to get title will be a good incentive for people to pvp without adding all the negatives that a gear treadmill gives.
Well ill be honest I havent really looked too deeply into this game so I may very well be missing something.
From what I read though when playing battlegrounds (or whatever gw2 happens to call them) all players have the same access to the exact same gear, skills etc. This to me is kind of concerning. I pretty much strictly PvP in mmo's. Pretty much the only reason I play is that I like to spend time working on my char so that I can go pvp. If theres no incentive to get gear and improve my character I find it hard to believe it will keep me intereseted in the long term.
I realize there will be world pvp and such, but lets face it an a modern day mmo after the initial leveling phase the bulk of your time pvping is in battlegrounds.
I also realize that with experience I will get better and have a competitive edge of players in that sense, I just worry there wont be much incentive or ways to work on your character to gain a bit of an advantage.
To me thats just the way it should go, the people that work hard for the gear deserve the advantage it gives.
I myself made the grind to Warlord back in Vanilla WoW and man it was fun and really added another element meeting up with very powerfull players. Im now more of a casual gamer, play a few hours when I can squeeze it in (family, life, work, you know) but I still feeel the same way. Its fun for me to face someone more experienced with better gear, it makes me better and gives me something to work towards.
Honestly I think thats what plagues alot of mmo's people are such whiners when it comes to balance. Games need a sense of randomness and hell even a bit of unfairness at times.
Also I think people are fooling themselves if they dont think that 95% of the players will be wearing the EXACT same gear and skills. People always fall into that cookie cutter mentality. Is this games battlegrounds seriously going to be filled with classes all wearing identical gear?
In WvW, outgearing an opponent will be possible, especially if you're higher level. In Structured PvP (arenas) however, all gear is created equal. This system will inherently weed out the good PvPers from the bads...as gear will no longer be a factor. And if we're being honest, I doubt gear will be a huge advantage even in WvW. At the end of the day, who wants to grind for ages just to be competative in PvP? In GW2, you can just jump in and let your skill do the talking.
You miss the point of the OP. The progression of your character is something that many people expect from RPGs. For some players, great many of them, the ability to improve your character over time with gear is the main reason they enjoy RPGs or MMORPGs. If they wanted play a "player skill" based game, they would choose a game in some other genre, like FPSs or RTSs. In RPGs, they expect to be able to get stronger the more time they spend on it. You advance your character with many hurdless that give you an ample reward at the end, without the reward it would feel shallow.
For this type of player, the lack of progression replaced with a "player skill"-based system, will be a major downside regardless whether you do not think it is important for you. I don't personally hold gear in such a high regard, but it is still nice to be able to improve your character in meaningful way in a RPG.
Character progression can be experienced through many different avenue's in the game. Titles. Achievements. Gear. Unlocking skills and traits. PVP included will most likely have a character progression in the form of PVP achievements/titles. Having a super hard to get title will be a good incentive for people to pvp without adding all the negatives that a gear treadmill gives.
Best wishes
Saint
You have to remember that non-tangible rewards is not going to be enough for people who enjoy gear progression. Just because it is negative for you does not mean it is negative for other people. No doubt some people are keen to get that super hard to get title, but it is again a subgroup, completionists etc. Not the same group as the "min-maxers" for example, who are simply looking to get the most optimal build with character progression through gear, traits, skills etc.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
The Gear normalization is one of the better features of GW and the only chance of an MMO to become a true esport title.
WoW tried to do it with it's "turnament" servers but since it was allways a PVE game it suffered some serious flaws in PVP in regards to ballance(and manytime vise versa) and even tough Blizzard poured tons of cash into it i never picked up.
PVP gear for me was the think which killed PVP in WoW, the original PVP sets were find but when they and many other games started intreducing PVP only stats it became took skill out of the game.
PVP stats in most games give you around 20% Damage reduction and 20% damage increase vs players, some do more some do less but never the less it is a huge factor. Which is especially important in the top tier of competetive player where even the slightest flat numeric advantage can play a crucial role in the outcome of the fight.
It's not just WoW or MMO's in general every game which is not 100% skill based(mainly old school fast paced FPS's ala quake and UT) the slightest ballance change effects the meta game of the highest ranked players the most. Take SC2 for example allot of early cheese tactics and other startegies rarely change in the lower ranked leagues, but even the slightest change can make a tactic or a build obsolete in the professional leagues allmost instantly.
MMORPG's allready suffer from the random luck factor where allmost every skill does random damage or a random effect based on the gear and the general mechanics of the game, which to be frank does limits the entire genere from being a true esport title since allot of players do want luck dectating the outcome of their game.
Removing any type of gear and skill deviation which will enable all players to fight on an even ground is currently the only solution which can put an MMO in esport spot light.
Anet did a good job of removing the PVE cooperative elements which do nothing but hinder PVP ballance, removed gear farming from competetive PVP, and incorporated esports feature into the core of the matchmaking and group PVP mechanics of the game.
So i cant understand why a "true" PVPer would deslike any thing, WoW PVP has nothing to do with skill just farming arenas and BG's, ToR PVP has even less to do with skill alltough i have to agree that atleast as BG's go they do require a bit more team work. So unless you were playing some other MMO that were not aware off which made gear progression actually viable in a competetive PVP enviroment i realy dont see this claim as nothing more than "oh shit i really hope that my 8 hours of day of PVPing increase my skills as a player too" post.
Best I can say is if titles and achievements arent good enough than go play the other 30 mmo that have gear treadmill pvp xD. Arenanet is building a different style of pvp. Its similar to GW1 so I have no doubt it works and will work well in GW2 . Cant please everyone and trying to will just cause the game to fail.
Well ill be honest I havent really looked too deeply into this game so I may very well be missing something.
From what I read though when playing battlegrounds (or whatever gw2 happens to call them) all players have the same access to the exact same gear, skills etc. This to me is kind of concerning. I pretty much strictly PvP in mmo's. Pretty much the only reason I play is that I like to spend time working on my char so that I can go pvp. If theres no incentive to get gear and improve my character I find it hard to believe it will keep me intereseted in the long term.
I realize there will be world pvp and such, but lets face it an a modern day mmo after the initial leveling phase the bulk of your time pvping is in battlegrounds.
I also realize that with experience I will get better and have a competitive edge of players in that sense, I just worry there wont be much incentive or ways to work on your character to gain a bit of an advantage.
To me thats just the way it should go, the people that work hard for the gear deserve the advantage it gives.
I myself made the grind to Warlord back in Vanilla WoW and man it was fun and really added another element meeting up with very powerfull players. Im now more of a casual gamer, play a few hours when I can squeeze it in (family, life, work, you know) but I still feeel the same way. Its fun for me to face someone more experienced with better gear, it makes me better and gives me something to work towards.
Honestly I think thats what plagues alot of mmo's people are such whiners when it comes to balance. Games need a sense of randomness and hell even a bit of unfairness at times.
Also I think people are fooling themselves if they dont think that 95% of the players will be wearing the EXACT same gear and skills. People always fall into that cookie cutter mentality. Is this games battlegrounds seriously going to be filled with classes all wearing identical gear?
- Good players dont need a gear advantage to be good. Games with 'gear progression' promote time investment, not skill. Look at GW1 to see a good example of skill based PvP, this is what will be on offer in GW2.
- In GW2 since all max level gear will be the same stats, there will be far more variety in gear that people wear. In WoW and other 'gear progression' games 90% of players are in the second best gear, and 10% are in the best gear, making for much less variety than GW2 where there will be lots of different appearance options from different dungeons / vendors.
It just sounds that you are upset that you wont have an innate advantage over players with less time to invest in the game than yourself. The advantage of spending more time should be that you are more skilled and a better player of the game, not that you have an innate 20% bonus to damage / damage reduction against a new player in PvP.
If you want to show off you can use your PvP titles.
If you want PVP to mostly be a contest of, whoever has spent the most time grinding for levels and/or gear wins, then there are plenty of games that cater to you. Guild Wars 2 just isn't one of them. ArenaNet wants PVP results to depend mostly on what players do in PVP, not just on what level and gear they come in with. It was like that in GW1, too.
If you want PVP to mostly be a contest of, whoever has spent the most time grinding for levels and/or gear wins, then there are plenty of games that cater to you. Guild Wars 2 just isn't one of them. ArenaNet wants PVP results to depend mostly on what players do in PVP, not just on what level and gear they come in with. It was like that in GW1, too.
^This.
Agreed,
Normalising everyones levels and gear for structured PvP means we will be able to truly see who has got skills, and who hasnt.
This may well annoy many "hardcore" players that actually have no skill, but grind away for hours/days/weeks/months to get superior gear which they think makes them "Uber". These are the kind of people that dont like a fair/even fight that is challenging but would much rather go round ganking players 20 levels below them.
From what I can gather, WvWvW will be more like playing the normal game, with events happening all over the map, gear drops, etc, just that you will be fighting players rather than NPCs. You can show off your flashy gear there.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
The only gear progression is in appearance. The more You PvP the more look variations You unlock. And that's the best thing about GW PvP really.
Whenever You look at the common mechanic in today's MMOs where You start earning PvP gear at level cap, then have to grind Your way through tiers of gear just to be sure You can have equal chance against another guy doing the same, by the end of the treadmil You start to wonder "what now?".
If whole of PvP expierience is based on getting new gear, how do You progress past that point?
You can't. You got all the gear there was to get, and all You can do is either help Your buddies get to that point or just roflstomp some fresh players that are just at the begining of the treadmill.
Yes. I am aware that there is group of peopel for who ganking and killing people with lower gear is the climax of enjoyment, but there is plenty of games that allow You to do just that. It's not competetive PvP however, never was and never will be.
Competetive means everyone starts at equal chance and it's how well You use what's availible that dictates the outcome.
If you want PVP to mostly be a contest of, whoever has spent the most time grinding for levels and/or gear wins, then there are plenty of games that cater to you. Guild Wars 2 just isn't one of them. ArenaNet wants PVP results to depend mostly on what players do in PVP, not just on what level and gear they come in with. It was like that in GW1, too.
^This.
Agreed,
Normalising everyones levels and gear for structured PvP means we will be able to truly see who has got skills, and who hasnt.
This may well annoy many "hardcore" players that actually have no skill, but grind away for hours/days/weeks/months to get superior gear which they think makes them "Uber".
From what I can gather, WvWvW will be more like playing the normal game, with events happening all over the map, gear drops, etc, just that you will be fighting players rather than NPCs. You can show off your flashy gear there.
Agreed, PVP should be about skill and not about gear. This will definately eliminate the weak links.
Comments
If you believe that if you have the same skill set as the next character who plays your profession you will end in stalemate, then you have never truly PVPed. There will always be players that have the upper hand, because they know how to play that character with a particular skill better than the next person, or they know the combinations of a set of skills thats different that whats posted online.
" there will always be a mountain higher than the next mountain " Even when the playfield is leveled, its not leveled, there will always be someone that is better than you and you better than them, Thats competition, and without gear progressions, you know why you win, and you know why you lost.
In previous MMO's , when a team lose, you always hear people saying how that other team was more geared, they got a healer, they got more dps, they got more tanks. Now everyone is a tank, everyone is a healer, everyone can be a dps. All depends on your skills you choosen before you started your pvp games. No more excuses, its either you are better than that other player or you aren't. And with that, you will be pvping everyday, hoping to get online to try your new combo moves, and get your name out there as the best pvper on your server.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
On the other hand, I remember playing Vanilla WoW battlegrounds and being able to wipe the floor with Tier 2 rogues while I was in Stormshroud Armor. It was my favorite thing to do. Gear didn't mean nearly as much in those days as it has from BC onward. We've got Arenas and Resilience to thank for that, and while I did try arena for a while, I wasn't willing to "find the right comp" and/or play with people I hated just so I could win. In Vanilla, yes, PVP gear existed, no, it wasn't any better than PVE gear, so everything was fine.
I shared some of the OP's concerns before I realized that I only stopped PVPing seriously in Warcraft when PVP gear was introduced. I still do it from time to time, but here's the funny thing about that: I grind my way up to the best possible gear I can get, and then I stop PVPing.
I have never understood the idea of gear-based PVP. How many of you play fighting games and turn the handicap in your favor vs. friends who haven't been playing for as long? How about if we were to give professional Starcraft 2 players extra building resources if their rank is higher than their opponent's? Or maybe extra chess pieces for the higher-ranked chess player? Extra fielded players on a sports team for the highest ranked? It makes no sense!
If anything, it should be the complete opposite. Give an advantage to the person with less skill, less time behind the wheel, and help them to keep up. Think you're hot shit? Step up and prove it. This is why we have "Hard Mode" in games - to challenge ourselves. You could say I'm in it for the bragging rights, and "PVP Gear" removed that in Warcraft. I look forward to GW2 PVP because I know that whatever 'rank' I end up with is the one I earned through my own personal skill, and it hasn't been artificially augmented by anything.
Haven't followed Guild Wars 2 much but after reading this thread I'd rather play Tribes or Quakes. I'm sure i can find more competitive "PvP" in these games. I play MMO's for the adrenaline and player politics that come from open world PvP. Grind isn't bad either for the little dopamine rush you get from new gear
There isn't an MMO that requires a substantial amount of skill and we wont see that for a long time (Planetside might be an exception).
Sorry dude, guess I'm getting cranky in my old age...
Its just that uber gear, has been proven to be a game breaker. Time online = uber gear has also been proven to be a game breaker. Most MMO players understand this, the ones that like it that way, are usually not nice people, from my experience.
I think GW2 has listen to the players, we now have a system that doesnt punish players for NOT being online 24/7, gives equal time to PvE and PvP players, and tops it off with 1000's of skill combinations.
None of which, trumps actual player skill, and that is the best thing of all!!
You will learn to like it, trust me.
If you want to grind for gear for PvP to cover up your lack of skill, there are... lets see... 10 million other MMOs for you to do that in?
Not this game, sorry. WoW, SWTOR, Rift, all of those have gear you can grind.
Me? I like to play my games, not grind for months to finally get to play.
Dont know if this has been answered but do we know any facts about what ranking systems etc will be in place? Do we get any kind of rank for WvWvW? Like realm rank in DAOC. Or atleast a KD counter like AOC had?
OP wants to farm PvP Gear.
Meaning he wants to have an advantage over people who havnt farmed PvP gear... which, im sorry, is just lame.
The only reason you would create a PvP Gear Treadmill is to be competative in PvP.
I would rather spend my time getting better at my character, improving my skill.
It's much more rewarding knowing I killed an opposing player with skill than because of some stupid number advantage on my gear.
If youre looking to supplement your lack of skill with gear, then GW2 is not the game for you, sorry.
We don't need players like the OP.
"The problem with quotes from the Internet is that it's almost impossible to validate their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
Me too !
But at least we will be able to play GW2 sometime this year.
Lolipops !
This conversation is about the arena pvp system. You should check out GWII WvW pvp system which is much more like what you enjoy.
Seriously now...why on earth ppl are so reticent to something new and pretty obvious better?
To become competitive is equal to grind like a mindless robot for a piece of gear?? really:)?
Dnt u had enough ot those players , that often made the mistake to think that having a better gear or much more time to spend in a boring pvp grind , doesn't make them a better pvper but only a guy with pathetic ego?
Please, please. take away this mentality that encourages selfishness and let the concept of teamworking, smart ideeas and good strategies win, not that piece of crap named gear...
U can try become a good pvper buy learning to play smarter against same geared players, thats fair, not seeking advantages over others from grinding(or spending rl money as in f2p goes).
Do u really feel good if u can beat a 5 yo kid just because ur 15yo and u have a bigger stick??:) think about pvp in the same way..maybe u'll find out the problem in this kind of satisfaction.
Didn't read all the posts but from what I've seen GW2 PVP will be more like a MOBA as is Bloodline Champions than a regular MMORPG. Just looking at the 5 skill set bar gives that up.
Because the game is B2p it doesnt need boring and mindless grind mechanics. You play it for fun not to grind and grind endlessly to Maybe become viable. Your viable in pvp right from the moment you step on the battlefield. Makes the game more about tactics and good skill use rather than "bob has 1million resillience and is unkillable by anyone except those that are maxed out." I rather have a strategic/skill based pvp experience than another wow-esque one where your 2 shot if you dont have the best gear.
TL:DR B2P doesnt need endless time sinks to maintain maximum subs.
Best wishes
Saint
You miss the point of the OP. The progression of your character is something that many people expect from RPGs. For some players, great many of them, the ability to improve your character over time with gear is the main reason they enjoy RPGs or MMORPGs. If they wanted play a "player skill" based game, they would choose a game in some other genre, like FPSs or RTSs. In RPGs, they expect to be able to get stronger the more time they spend on it. You advance your character with many hurdless that give you an ample reward at the end, without the reward it would feel shallow.
For this type of player, the lack of progression replaced with a "player skill"-based system, will be a major downside regardless whether you do not think it is important for you. I don't personally hold gear in such a high regard, but it is still nice to be able to improve your character in meaningful way in a RPG.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Then just have then go play ANY other mmo. They dont have to play gw2 and when they want "player skill" they can play something else.
Character progression can be experienced through many different avenue's in the game. Titles. Achievements. Gear. Unlocking skills and traits. PVP included will most likely have a character progression in the form of PVP achievements/titles. Having a super hard to get title will be a good incentive for people to pvp without adding all the negatives that a gear treadmill gives.
Best wishes
Saint
You have to remember that non-tangible rewards is not going to be enough for people who enjoy gear progression. Just because it is negative for you does not mean it is negative for other people. No doubt some people are keen to get that super hard to get title, but it is again a subgroup, completionists etc. Not the same group as the "min-maxers" for example, who are simply looking to get the most optimal build with character progression through gear, traits, skills etc.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
I think the some of the answers are here but it is a long read , get a drink and dig in . Alot of info on World vs World .
http://www.reddit.com/user/ArenaNetTeam/?count=25&after=t1_c3um5qjhttp://www.reddit.com/user/ArenaNetTeam/?count=25&after=t1_c3um5qj
The Gear normalization is one of the better features of GW and the only chance of an MMO to become a true esport title.
WoW tried to do it with it's "turnament" servers but since it was allways a PVE game it suffered some serious flaws in PVP in regards to ballance(and manytime vise versa) and even tough Blizzard poured tons of cash into it i never picked up.
PVP gear for me was the think which killed PVP in WoW, the original PVP sets were find but when they and many other games started intreducing PVP only stats it became took skill out of the game.
PVP stats in most games give you around 20% Damage reduction and 20% damage increase vs players, some do more some do less but never the less it is a huge factor. Which is especially important in the top tier of competetive player where even the slightest flat numeric advantage can play a crucial role in the outcome of the fight.
It's not just WoW or MMO's in general every game which is not 100% skill based(mainly old school fast paced FPS's ala quake and UT) the slightest ballance change effects the meta game of the highest ranked players the most. Take SC2 for example allot of early cheese tactics and other startegies rarely change in the lower ranked leagues, but even the slightest change can make a tactic or a build obsolete in the professional leagues allmost instantly.
MMORPG's allready suffer from the random luck factor where allmost every skill does random damage or a random effect based on the gear and the general mechanics of the game, which to be frank does limits the entire genere from being a true esport title since allot of players do want luck dectating the outcome of their game.
Removing any type of gear and skill deviation which will enable all players to fight on an even ground is currently the only solution which can put an MMO in esport spot light.
Anet did a good job of removing the PVE cooperative elements which do nothing but hinder PVP ballance, removed gear farming from competetive PVP, and incorporated esports feature into the core of the matchmaking and group PVP mechanics of the game.
So i cant understand why a "true" PVPer would deslike any thing, WoW PVP has nothing to do with skill just farming arenas and BG's, ToR PVP has even less to do with skill alltough i have to agree that atleast as BG's go they do require a bit more team work. So unless you were playing some other MMO that were not aware off which made gear progression actually viable in a competetive PVP enviroment i realy dont see this claim as nothing more than "oh shit i really hope that my 8 hours of day of PVPing increase my skills as a player too" post.
Best I can say is if titles and achievements arent good enough than go play the other 30 mmo that have gear treadmill pvp xD. Arenanet is building a different style of pvp. Its similar to GW1 so I have no doubt it works and will work well in GW2
. Cant please everyone and trying to will just cause the game to fail.
Best wishes
Saint
- Good players dont need a gear advantage to be good. Games with 'gear progression' promote time investment, not skill. Look at GW1 to see a good example of skill based PvP, this is what will be on offer in GW2.
- In GW2 since all max level gear will be the same stats, there will be far more variety in gear that people wear. In WoW and other 'gear progression' games 90% of players are in the second best gear, and 10% are in the best gear, making for much less variety than GW2 where there will be lots of different appearance options from different dungeons / vendors.
It just sounds that you are upset that you wont have an innate advantage over players with less time to invest in the game than yourself. The advantage of spending more time should be that you are more skilled and a better player of the game, not that you have an innate 20% bonus to damage / damage reduction against a new player in PvP.
If you want to show off you can use your PvP titles.
^This.
Agreed,
Normalising everyones levels and gear for structured PvP means we will be able to truly see who has got skills, and who hasnt.
This may well annoy many "hardcore" players that actually have no skill, but grind away for hours/days/weeks/months to get superior gear which they think makes them "Uber". These are the kind of people that dont like a fair/even fight that is challenging but would much rather go round ganking players 20 levels below them.
From what I can gather, WvWvW will be more like playing the normal game, with events happening all over the map, gear drops, etc, just that you will be fighting players rather than NPCs. You can show off your flashy gear there.
Cluck Cluck, Gibber Gibber, My Old Mans A Mushroom
The only gear progression is in appearance. The more You PvP the more look variations You unlock. And that's the best thing about GW PvP really.
Whenever You look at the common mechanic in today's MMOs where You start earning PvP gear at level cap, then have to grind Your way through tiers of gear just to be sure You can have equal chance against another guy doing the same, by the end of the treadmil You start to wonder "what now?".
If whole of PvP expierience is based on getting new gear, how do You progress past that point?
You can't. You got all the gear there was to get, and all You can do is either help Your buddies get to that point or just roflstomp some fresh players that are just at the begining of the treadmill.
Yes. I am aware that there is group of peopel for who ganking and killing people with lower gear is the climax of enjoyment, but there is plenty of games that allow You to do just that. It's not competetive PvP however, never was and never will be.
Competetive means everyone starts at equal chance and it's how well You use what's availible that dictates the outcome.