Originally posted by pelamore I starting playing SWG in Beta, and saw alot of potential. I don't see it anymore. CU was the last straw. When I logged in the first day after CU and I couldn't wear my armor anymore, most of my weapons I wasn't Certed for, my combat moves had completely changed, and Macros didn't work anymore, I was stunned! SWG has gone the way they said it never would "EQ in space". They are removing everything that made SWG unique except the Stormtroopers. Sony made a simple calculation. EQ makes more money then SWG, so make SWG more like EQ. Whalla! CU. Add to this the complete ignoring of many professions (DE has gotten NO LOVE), horrible in game support, bugs ontop of bugs that hide other bugs you don't find till they fix the first bug only to change the system again causing new bugs, Jedi EVERYWHERE, etc etc. Example. I cancelled 5 accounts several months ago. And recently re-activated one figuring I could atleast finish her Village grind in my spare time. On route to the Village my Master TKA/Sword decided to fight some of the local wildlife. I fought 3 (I forget the name, the lizards) and was incapped 2 twice. I finally won, and felt proud, only to realize that I got 3 XP, 3 XP! i Forgot that I was CL 80, and they were CL 50 or 60. -10% per level left no XP for all that effort. WTF! In frustration I decided to go back home to Tat and log out. Hey, after an incapp you can't call a bike or use you Starship for a while?!? 20 minutes sitting in Research waiting for that timer to run out so I could leave the planet. I gave up, logged right there, and cancelled the account 1 hour after re-activating it.
I honestly believe your assessment is wrong.
The CU did wonders for this game. I agree, it's unfortunate it had to be done in the first place, but it is a better game now because of it.
Secondly, this is nothing like EQ. In EQ you had hundreds of skills and abilities, and spells. here you have 10? 12? How many of those are useful to you? And that was BEFORE the CU. There is little content in the classes unlike EQ. And this is nothing of the size and composition.
The grind is not nearly as bad as EQ, but there is hardly the same content, and never will be.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I'm sorry but Blizzard learn from SOE? How about Blizzard learn from SOE, NCSoft, Mythic and everyone else. The game is horrible, it's a rehash of generation 1 MMO's. Granted it does everything people wnted in gen 1's REALLY well but that's about all it does. It does nothing new, nothing interesting. And don't get me started on the community. If there is anything that killed world of Warcraft for me it was the community.
People will soon realize that the terms "1st generation, 2nd generation" etc are bullshit. They are marketing terms that companies and developers use to try and differentiate their upcoming game from the current games.
The simple fact is that when people buy a game and play it, either its a polished, quality and FUN game or it isn't. Buzzwords like "next generation MMO" don't mean anything to me especially when some of these games which were touted as "2nd generation" like EQ2 ended up being LESS fun than their predecessors.
Err... Blizzard being in the MMORPG genre for some 1.5 years, SOE being 4 times that ? You can love or hate SOE (mostly the later), but they ARE a successful COMPANY. Thats NOT to say they make the best games, but they DO make successfull games that generate profit. And that has been shown time and time again long before Blizzard appeared on the MMORPG scene. SOE was the (western) market leader in the genre until WoW.
Keep something in mind. You can't honestly say SOE has been in the market 4 times that, because you aren't talking about the same teams of people. Verant / Brad McQuaid released the original EQ and the first few expansions. Once they left, you saw the beginning of the end for EQ, not in regards to dollars earned, but by the quality of the game itself. Quality went WAY downhill and that trend never really ended until Omens of War which was an OK expansion compared the ones its followed. In essence, yeah its the same company. It's not the same people, so I don't think you can say they have been in the business longer and have it really mean what your trying to say it means.
SOE - believe it or not - is also more innovative in games than Blizzard (speaking only about the MMORPG genre here). WoW is basically the best old style MMORPG you can devise. Which also means to me it is lacking in long term appeal (also speaking from my own experience here). And if the recent flood of (ex-) WoW players in every game I play (especially EVE and SWG) is any indication, they are already spreading out because WoW has little high end gaming beyond one new lair every 3 months or so. Of course thats all IMHO.
The "first generation" or "old style" argument is hogwash. Either you design and implement a FUN game or you don't. Each genre or product is going to be different. Terms like "second generation" are marketing spin to drum up interest. If you look at MMORPG's since Ultima Online many of the underlying concepts are and will be used in the future... ("levels", "skills", "mobs", etc). I'm sure in your own mind you find your game of preference more innovative, but even if that were true, the implementation has been rock bottom of the barrel and it shows.
Blizzard just announced they passed 1 million North American subscribers. SOE *maybe* has that if you combine all its games, but I doubt it. WoW is still adding new servers. How many servers are they adding in SWG? In EQ? In EQ2?
To answer the question directly : I think they would be exactly where they are now. They will improve as Blizzard for the first time gave them competition, and thats always good. So I think they will be BETTER in the future. Both SOE and Blizzard.
This is flat out false. Many of the changes made to EQ2 and SWG were made because they were perceived as aspects or concepts that made games like WoW popular. Devs aren't going to fix something unless they think it isn't working well. Despite the fact that EQ2 and SWG are turning a profit, they are nowhere near as successful as they should be, and for that reason SOE has been tweaking, retuning, rebalancing, redesigning, etc etc on and on in an effort to stem the flow of blood.
This I love. I agree completely. And can tell you why.
Because gamers accept less and less perfection to get their hands on a game. I think its quite sad. Which each new game release gamers are lowering their expectation more and more. This year we saw a horrible release in Mourning. Yet I am willing to bet in another 2 or 3 years that will be completely acceptable and normal for a game to be released in that condition.
You would not go to a movie if it hadnt been edited. You would not buy a car missing its engine. You would not pay for a hamburger missing the bun. You would not accept a phone service that didnt have phone lines or signals. And you wouldnt buy a computer missing a video card. But people are more then happy to go slap $50 on a counter for a game that is missing a ton of things.
Its completely unacceptable to me. We even provide the excuses for the game companies. I loved sitting on the forums for SWG before beta, after the NDA was lifted and listening to the players saying how its expected and do we all know what goes into a game and the money and so on and so forth. I dont care what time is involved, manpower, money, etc. They took the task up. They accepted the job. No one put a gun to their head. If they cant handle it then they need to go find another line of production. Plain and simple. Incompetence (and SOE is very incompetent) is never an excuse.
Trust me here. You start putting serious penalities on companies so they lose a ton of money if a game is released with massive bugs and missing features like SWG, and I promise you the games we get will be cleaner and alot more refined.
Now I should explain I can understand when a bug slips by. You can have 2000 beta testers for a year and still a bug will slip by. That I can fully understand. But when the developers and marketing know the bugs exist and know features wont be in then there is no excuse.
Keep something in mind. You can't honestly say SOE has been in the market 4 times that, because you aren't talking about the same teams of people. Verant / Brad McQuaid released the original EQ and the first few expansions. Once they left, you saw the beginning of the end for EQ, not in regards to dollars earned, but by the quality of the game itself. Quality went WAY downhill and that trend never really ended until Omens of War which was an OK expansion compared the ones its followed. In essence, yeah its the same company. It's not the same people, so I don't think you can say they have been in the business longer and have it really mean what your trying to say it means.
The company has existed for that long, that is what he was trying to say and it's true. Every company loses employees, good and bad. This is Blizzards first attempt in the MMORPG arena, they hit a homerun as far as profit, time will tell how their next at bat goes. I do love Blizzard though, but I love SOE too, they brought me EQ and I didn't start until as you say it went down hill, and it was the best game I have ever played, still tops any other game ever. Quality was superb, guess we have to agree to disagree.
The "first generation" or "old style" argument is hogwash. Either you design and implement a FUN game or you don't. Each genre or product is going to be different. Terms like "second generation" are marketing spin to drum up interest. If you look at MMORPG's since Ultima Online many of the underlying concepts are and will be used in the future... ("levels", "skills", "mobs", etc). I'm sure in your own mind you find your game of preference more innovative, but even if that were true, the implementation has been rock bottom of the barrel and it shows.
Blizzard just announced they passed 1 million North American subscribers. SOE *maybe* has that if you combine all its games, but I doubt it. WoW is still adding new servers. How many servers are they adding in SWG? In EQ? In EQ2?
Sorry but WoW is almost a complete clone of EQ. Same commands, chat system, basic UI; it's all the same. Anyone who played EQ could jump in and not even miss a step in WoW. This is the only occasion when I will ever say anything bad about WoW, when I'm defending another less popular game. WoW is a yawnfest at the high levels for me, my gf still loves it, but then she loved Lineage 2 at the high levels before I pulled the plug. I don't care if 8 billion people are playing it, I could never go back, that's just me, and I'm not the only one.
This is flat out false. Many of the changes made to EQ2 and SWG were made because they were perceived as aspects or concepts that made games like WoW popular. Devs aren't going to fix something unless they think it isn't working well. Despite the fact that EQ2 and SWG are turning a profit, they are nowhere near as successful as they should be, and for that reason SOE has been tweaking, retuning, rebalancing, redesigning, etc etc on and on in an effort to stem the flow of blood.
All of this of course on the gamers' dime.
Herein lies the dilemma, do you make a game that will appeal to everyone, or make a game that you think is good no matter what the masses want. Sometimes decisions are made and not everyone is happy, this is the nature of the business world. I'm sorry but the fact that WoW can have this wide of an audience is because it is so generic and takes from basically every game ever made. Not saying either company made all good or bad decisions, and I'm not saying any single decision SOE ever made was right, only looking at it from a different angle than you. I can't play WoW, I wish I could, but it bores me; to death. Again, this is the only time I will say anything bad about WoW, when defending a less popular game.
Have fun
Erillion
Oh I am don't worry
Me too, I have EQ2 and SWG to tool around in, EQ2 is freakin' rockin' now btw, and I assume you know about SWG.
Originally posted by GamerGuy3131 And yes everyone is becomming a jedi soon 99 percent of the players will be jedi. Everyone is either a jedi or bounty hunter.
Thats a statement I can definitely say is wrong. On all of the 12 servers I know personally. On all of the 4 servers I play regularily (Naritus, TC Prime, Europe-Farstar, Europe-Chimaera).
A lot of people do the force sensitive quests to get a free second toon (which means that technically they are padawan, but they dont continue on to Jedi). But there are still many that are not even interested in that.
Dont let the impression you see in Dantooine Mining Outpost make you think that THIS is SWG. You only see the grind aspect, not the other 90 % of the game. And not the many people that play and craft and entertain on the other planets, especially in their player city workshops and malls.
Originally posted by pelamore I starting playing SWG in Beta, and saw alot of potential. I don't see it anymore. CU was the last straw. When I logged in the first day after CU and I couldn't wear my armor anymore, most of my weapons I wasn't Certed for, my combat moves had completely changed, and Macros didn't work anymore, I was stunned! Happened to all of us. You have to relearn the way you do things in combat . Soon you will get used to it. Add to this the complete ignoring of many professions (DE has gotten NO LOVE), Huh ? I AM droid engineer. The revamp that made our profession viable is now some 14 months old. We are not the greatest profession (no "real" combat droids .. but that was by vote of the DEs online in the official forum that did not want to see the DE become a clone of the creature handler) but our profession pays its bills and we craft many essential items for the community (space droids and flight computers, crafting and entertainer droids, BH droids, combat droids for the beginning fighter and the crafters/entertainers etc.). So I THINK you are referring to a situation 1.5 years ago. 2 twice. I finally won, and felt proud, only to realize that I got 3 XP, 3 XP! i Forgot that I was CL 80, and they were CL 50 or 60. -10% per level left no XP for all that effort. WTF! So you were not used to the new combat system and got your ass handed to you. Happened to all of us in the first days. Will change soon once you get used to the new system and then CL 50 lizards wont be a problem. And YES, SWG combat is now more dangerous than before. No more macro soloing rancor lairs with god-mode buffs while watching TV. If you join a group and watch others in combat you will quickly learn how the system works post-CU. In frustration I decided to go back home to Tat and log out. Hey, after an incapp you can't call a bike or use you Starship for a while?!? Dont know what that means, because thats NOT what happens. I suspect you had your basic attack still activated (auto attack on) and did not end combat mode by hitting ESC twice. A common post-CU beginners error. Because that blocks you from calling or mounting your vehicle. 20 minutes sitting in Research waiting for that timer There is no timer. To the contrary. There is not even the 15 second wait timer for vehicles anymore. They appear now instantly, even outside cities. to run out so I could leave the planet. I gave up, logged right there, and cancelled the account 1 hour after re-activating it. Sorry to hear that. Have fun whereever you play next Erillion
People will soon realize that the terms "1st generation, 2nd generation" etc are bullshit. They are marketing terms that companies and developers use to try and differentiate their upcoming game from the current games.
The simple fact is that when people buy a game and play it, either its a polished, quality and FUN game or it isn't. Buzzwords like "next generation MMO" don't mean anything to me especially when some of these games which were touted as "2nd generation" like EQ2 ended up being LESS fun than their predecessors.
Playing several games and having played even more - old and "new" style - I DO think there is a difference in principle between e.g. WoW and Guild Wars. Its not all marketing speech IMHO. So we agree to disagree here.
Originally posted by Erillion Playing several games and having played even more - old and "new" style - I DO think there is a difference in principle between e.g. WoW and Guild Wars. Its not all marketing speech IMHO. So we agree to disagree here. Have fun Erillion
There is a difference in design of the games themselves, but the principle is the same.
1 - World of Warcraft is the best 1st generation MMO made.
This doesn't mean it's better in all regards than EQ was. It's not. The combat system leaves a lot to be desired, and the world size isn't even close. WoW, though, sports the same ole same ole questing and leveling system EQ did. It's just more refined.
2 - Guild Wars is the same thing.
Questing, brought down to team levels. The only real difference is that the combat system is so simplified that it can hardly be called a 'system', but THIS is where the character content is supposed to reside first. Lacking this content, lacking raid content, lacking solo content, Guild Wars won't realize all that much of a market share in the end. They targeted too specific of a playerbase.
Neither is a next-generation MMO. The nextgen MMOs haven't been done yet, EXCEPT for Star Wars: Galaxies. This game was supposed to be that model for the next 5-8 years of MMO design. It had the advantage of being one of the most popular background Sagas in recent history. It was a sci-fi based MMO, instead of the old Tolkeinish stand-by. It was supposed to be skill-based, with more concentration on 'community' than anything else.
They failed most of these, and as a result that Next Generation has been put on hold, as this has scared the bajeezuz out of a lot of upstarts.
It's almost as if Galaxies were designed to remove other potential competitors through scare tactics lol.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by Erillion Playing several games and having played even more - old and "new" style - I DO think there is a difference in principle between e.g. WoW and Guild Wars. Its not all marketing speech IMHO. So we agree to disagree here. Have fun Erillion
There is a difference in design of the games themselves, but the principle is the same.
1 - World of Warcraft is the best 1st generation MMO made.
This doesn't mean it's better in all regards than EQ was. It's not. The combat system leaves a lot to be desired, and the world size isn't even close. WoW, though, sports the same ole same ole questing and leveling system EQ did. It's just more refined.
2 - Guild Wars is the same thing.
Questing, brought down to team levels. The only real difference is that the combat system is so simplified that it can hardly be called a 'system', but THIS is where the character content is supposed to reside first. Lacking this content, lacking raid content, lacking solo content, Guild Wars won't realize all that much of a market share in the end. They targeted too specific of a playerbase.
Neither is a next-generation MMO. The nextgen MMOs haven't been done yet, EXCEPT for Star Wars: Galaxies. This game was supposed to be that model for the next 5-8 years of MMO design. It had the advantage of being one of the most popular background Sagas in recent history. It was a sci-fi based MMO, instead of the old Tolkeinish stand-by. It was supposed to be skill-based, with more concentration on 'community' than anything else.
They failed most of these, and as a result that Next Generation has been put on hold, as this has scared the bajeezuz out of a lot of upstarts.
It's almost as if Galaxies were designed to remove other potential competitors through scare tactics lol.
That maybe why some of us are so passionately angry about this game. We put such faith in this game. It was going to set the stage. It was going to change MMOs from 90% high fantasy to a mix. But it never even scratched the edge. Never even came remotely close.
Playing several games and having played even more - old and "new" style - I DO think there is a difference in principle between e.g. WoW and Guild Wars. Its not all marketing speech IMHO. So we agree to disagree here. Have fun Erillion
Of course there is a difference between Guild Wars and WoW - they are two different types of games. This is like saying there is a design difference between Diablo2 and EQ.
I'm asking a simple question here, but can you tell me what differentiates a "2nd generation MMORPG" from a "1st generation" one? EQ2 was supposed to be 2nd generation - they were supposed to take everything they learned from EQ and apply it in a new and exciting way to create this kind of revolutionary game. What they failed to do was sit down and say "hey, is this game fun? Is it something players will enjoy playing again and again, day after day?".
Of course, if you don't even FINISH your game and release it in beta form, then the entire debate is moot.
Of course there is a difference between Guild Wars and WoW - they are two different types of games. This is like saying there is a design difference between Diablo2 and EQ. I'm asking a simple question here, but can you tell me what differentiates a "2nd generation MMORPG" from a "1st generation" one? EQ2 was supposed to be 2nd generation - they were supposed to take everything they learned from EQ and apply it in a new and exciting way to create this kind of revolutionary game. What they failed to do was sit down and say "hey, is this game fun? Is it something players will enjoy playing again and again, day after day?". Of course, if you don't even FINISH your game and release it in beta form, then the entire debate is moot.
1 - Zones are seamless in SWG.
2 - No levels. Skills.
3 - Missions, not quests, and they were initially supposed to be dynamic not story-lines.
4 - A concentration on WHAT IT MEANS TO 'BE' IN THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE.
This last was the critical failure. They haven't yet gotten around to even agreeing on what that meant.
Some of us have tried like hell to explain the needs of the Star Wars Fan, for one thing, and they respond in such a way as to say, "Just not interested in that anymore". What this means is that they are totally ignoring the target market.
Lastly, casual gameplay. Here they succeeded. But, shortly after release Koster started talking about the Hardcore player being the 'Core Community'. In fact, what he meant to say was the 'fanboi' is the core community, and will continue playing the product no matter how many times he is kicked in the teeth.
In other words, they were designing initially the next generation MMO. It was ambitious, but inevitably a failure considering the return on that investment versus what they could have realized. This has always been a management failure.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
1 - Zones are seamless in SWG. 2 - No levels. Skills. 3 - Missions, not quests, and they were initially supposed to be dynamic not story-lines. 4 - A concentration on WHAT IT MEANS TO 'BE' IN THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE. Hey there Wepps. Can you clarify? Were points 1 - 3 supposed to be defining aspects of a 2nd generation MMORPG? If so, you described Ultima Online to a T Skills.... seamless world (no zones) and even NPC missions (although they were terribly primitive escort type missions). As I said before, I think the whole 1st / 2nd generation thing is bull. I think there are a couple different schools of thought on how to develop an MMORPG and each particular game that comes out tries to hype/differentiate itself by claiming to be 'next generation'.
i SORT OF agree with Aildrik here in that the differences between 1st and 2nd (3rd or however many there are) generation games is mostly moot int he eyes of the community. however, i agree with Wepps that there are definilty differences and a true line between generations of MMO's.
There will always be games that come out that are straightforward level runs. gain xp, gain a level, get skills and abilities based on that level, rinse and repeat. it's familiar, easy to learn, and easy to identify rewards in the system. players will always be able to identify with such a straight forward system. even when one day even WoW is long buried, there will be a game (probably more then 1) thay uses the "old school" levelling system.
Then games like SWG, that try to break the mold with a whole new progression system. More complicated? maybe. harder to distinguish balance? maybe. it all comes down to implementation. i believe that at the core SWG does a good job, but there's a lot of polish and tweaking required to make it just right. That and there have been some sh1tty management decisions that have alienated huge sections of the playerbase.
I love the game, and will continue playing. but i can certainly see why so many people have issues with the game. even i have strong feelings about it, i'm a smuggler
btw, for the last page and half...everyone has done a great job keeping this discussion very productive. the flames are dying out and good points are being brought up on both sides. see? we can hold civil conversations..we just need about 50 posts or so to get the kinks out
******************************** MMO Name: InVictus Kell Currently Playing: EVE Online ********************************
I have Been reading this topic in utmost silence the sneaky bastard that i am .. and i have to agree with Wheezal .. this is much more better , productive and amusing to read then all the flaming .. especially with a topic name like this it is wuz bound to be a flame-orama but eventually it died ... i also love star wars galaxies so much that i don't use the problems / kinks / buggy's /or any other crap to become between me and the game keep the good work going !
Problem is people are assuming gaming companies think like gamers. Gamers see genertion 1-2-3 etc in terms of advancements to the gameplay, new ideas, new innovations pushing the envelope.
Gaming companies dont look at it that way, true enough they do make differences, but the differences are incremental at best, over a period of 10 years, all those differences add up but for the 1-3 year period they dont. Instead what gaming companies use almost exclusively as a barometer of success in advancing a game, are graphics or new surround 22.1 sound. If you have to buy a new system to play it, then they pat themselves on the back and proclaim in press conferences the new best thing.
Originally posted by Scorpes Problem is people are assuming gaming companies think like gamers. Gamers see genertion 1-2-3 etc in terms of advancements to the gameplay, new ideas, new innovations pushing the envelope. Gaming companies dont look at it that way, true enough they do make differences, but the differences are incremental at best, over a period of 10 years, all those differences add up but for the 1-3 year period they dont. Instead what gaming companies use almost exclusively as a barometer of success in advancing a game, are graphics or new surround 22.1 sound. If you have to buy a new system to play it, then they pat themselves on the back and proclaim in press conferences the new best thing.
They used to think of it that way.
They don't anymore. The first generation is over. To them, World of Warcraft is a 2nd generation MMO and that's true from the development companies' perspectives.
Galaxies was the game that SHOULD have defined the genre in general, and if I had to choose one key aspect of 2nd gen, this would be it. A fully defined method of development.
Instead, Jack Emmert over at City of Heroes decided he'd be arrogant enough to do it, and although CoH had the best release in MMO history (from the player's perspective), his is turning out to be a failure in that respect as well.
The truth is, there is one best way to build a great MMO, and there is one best way to manage it after its marketing. Defining that best method is what would make a given company wildly successful, assuming they could implement those principles.
Nobody has done it yet. Just saying an MMO is MASSIVE, its MULTIPLAYER, and it's ONLINE, is not what we mean by defining the genre either. It's more than just that kind of rubbish.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Adding to the features (things that SWG has, but WoW has not) of modern MMORPGs I would add :
a) Full 3D ... "almost photo"-realism if you run the game at max settings
b) complete customization of avatar so no two toons are alike
c) Player driven economy
d) Crafting in no way related to combat - you can be a crafter for years and never touch a weapon
e) true social professions (e.g. musician and dancer), that dont have to be crafters or fighters
f) Player Event Tools
g) Space Fighter simulation (so a twitch action element besides the ground game ... Where is my WoW sea battle expansion ? Flying combat expansion :-) ??)
h) free character evolution (not getting stuck in a level or class or career)
and things that should be in (which SWG does not yet have)
i) full voice over Internet support build in
j) dynamic surround sound audio
k) cinematic cut scenes taken from the movies or specifically shot for the game (hey, its a movie franchise game !! ... Wing Commander had that already ) for specific instanced quests
Well if this poll is any indication, and I think it is...
We can expect half the population to bug out when they start selling expansions geared toward Jedi.
Too much time has been devoted to that profession, and they aren't even promising anything reasonable to the Smuggler yet, which is a major selling point of Star Wars.
My conclusion as to why this is the case - it is simply because SOE is way too big. It must be run by professional business management, who typically have no concept even of the product they sell, and often no real leadership skills.
The top-end management is too far removed from the realities and needs of the community. By the time any information gets to them, it has passed through a number of other supervisory levels who are trying to cover their own errors, and sending fudged numbers up the line. Even if top management were an excellent team of leaders, their decisions are likely based on falsehoods. Of course, this all assumes that they are interested in anything apart from a quick buck.
Leadership is the critical issue in this case. My reasoning is this - whether or not you like the CU, they implemented PRECISELY what they said they would. They started by defining rolls of professions in combat, and implemented them in such a way as to suggest that they are quite capable of doing so when they have the right leadership. The CU team did an excellent job.
So, it's not the developers themselves. It's the priorities, and therefore the leadership, the management, that have created this ongoing fiasco.
After 5 years, I can see no clear way to solving the problem without removal of the management, and replacement by those with direct experience in the CU and other excellent upgrades, capable of understanding the necessities required by the community, and with those excellent leadership skills. Unless this happens, I believe the game will become unrecoverable by the time of the next expansion releases.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Originally posted by Wepps Well if this poll is any indication, and I think it is... We can expect half the population to bug out when they start selling expansions geared toward Jedi. This should clear up any remaining questions if this is a Jedi only expansion. >>>>>>>>>> Hi, I am Grant McDaniel. I am the Producer for Star Wars Galaxies at Sony Online Entertainment and have been with the team for over four years. I just returned from the Games Convention in Leipzig, which was amazing (over 100,000 gamers!) and also where we announced our upcoming expansion, Star Wars Galaxies: Trials of Obi-Wan.
Over the past few months, a portion of our development team has been secretly working on this expansion, so I am really glad that I can finally begin to tell you a little bit about what we have been doing (just not everything we have to leave a few surprises!).
Over the upcoming weeks, our community group will be gathering your expansion-related questions from the forums so that I can provide you all with some answers and more information about what we have planned. We have already gathered some of the most common questions from the boards, and I have provided some initial answers to those below. I know there are a lot more questions where these came from, and we will post some answers regularly.
1. Is this a Jedi expansion? Absolutely not. This expansion has content and adventures for all types of Star Wars Galaxies players. 2. I'm not a Jedi...so is there any reason for me to obtain the Trials of Obi-Wan Expansion? Of course. All players will be able to converse with Obi-Wan and help him on his quests. Additionally, there will be many other quests as well as other reasons to explore the planet of Mustafar. And, the planet itself is so completely unique when compared to the rest of the planets in our game, that I think many people will just enjoy exploring and adventuring anywhere they can. (A lot more than Anakin!) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
After 5 years, I can see no clear way to solving the problem without removal of the management, and replacement by those with direct experience in the CU and other excellent upgrades, capable of understanding the necessities required by the community, and with those excellent leadership skills.
I agree with your post about the need for "Management Upgrade Publish 25" in the near future Have fun Erillion
I agree Erillion, but I don't have the tolerance for being lied to as some other people do.
At what point does each person realize that SOE has been feeding us misinformation?
Let's address this issue here....
1 - They promised JTL in about a year after release. They delivered it.
2 - They promised the Combat Upgrade, delivered it 3 months late, but here it is.
3 - Any further discussions concerning Expansions have had their timetables met to-date.
Aside from these specific issues, in which 2 is borderline, I honestly believe that everything else has been a continual feeding of the 'core playerbase' with false information concerning the development of the game, and the game itself.
Given this, I honeslty believe they are lying to themselves! Each department, with exceptions surely, is lying to the next department, and the result has been ongoing confusion among the development team in general for all this time.
Back in beta, there were obviously TONS of issues and bugs to deal with. But in those days, I would /bug a number of things, and then make a list to the main website at the end of my testing day. No kidding, often by the time I would start testing the next day, the problems were nearly ALL RESOLVED.
It was very efficient, and very professional in those days.
10 days before release, they patched-in the final release version of the game, and all hell broke loose. It was essentially a TOTALLY DIFFERENT GAME than what we had been testing all that time! The beta testers, released from their non-disclosure agreements, hit the external forums in droves...warning people to avoid the game until it was solidified into a working format, which now was totally buggy with tons of balance issues.
At that exact same period of time, two things occurred:
1 - The development team stopped talking to us entirely, and refused to fix bugs, or implement the many excellent ideas. "Thank you, here's your hot poker up the wazoo for payment."
2 - I personally went external, and assured the potential players that they were in for a treat, because I had much experience with a very efficient development team. I promised that the game would be in perfect working order by month 3, based upon my experiences with that team.
But, what I didn't realize at the time was that the BUSINESS management, often referred to as the Post-Release Management of the game had already decided to leave it run to its own devices, without a serious effort to fix the thousands of bugs.
So, in those first 3 months ONLY the absolute game-breaking bugs were addressed, and most of the development resources turned immedaitely towards...Jump to Lightspeed, and nerfing of the game content.
During, and often after that time period, you would find a new cave somewhere being declared as Awesome Content by the developers, which in every case was nerfed out of existence within 36 hours of implementation in a patch.
Locations where players were seeking interesting and fun content, like the Tusken Fort, were nerfed (like in that case) 4 times, and removed as viable content.
Professions were being nerfed one after the other every month.
Players began to realize that there was....NOTHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO, and started leaving the game in large numbers by month 3.
This post-release management is what I am talking about. These guys have NOOOO CLUEEEEE, and honestly, I feel they would be better suited as car wash employees, rather than people of any authority whatsoever. They are INCOMPETENT, and continue to be so in my opinion.
They refuse, for example, to understand that they would realize more revenues as people returned to the game if they just finally implemented SMUGGLING, than they can ever hope to realize from yet another expansion, which based upon information from SOE is already unbalanced in nature.
The MMO's greatest return to the developers is in the RETURNING PLAYERBASE, in the monthly fees. If they could just see that, they would realize that this expansion-happy company does more to drive people AWAY, than bring them in with those expansions. The product does no longer warrant further purchases of expansions by the players, if they refuse to resolve the very important issues that make Star Wars great. CONTENT IS FOUND IN THE PROFESSIONS THEMSELVES.
They had only begun to address this in the Bounty Hunter profession. If they could just expand it to include all the professions, people would be returning to this game in more numbers than ever left!
I honestly believe that. And I believe that the current management of this product is incapable of seeing it that way, and therefore they must go.
It's NOT where a player can GO that makes Star Wars. It's what they can DO.
As soon as they gave out the free respecs, and I was returning to the game, I KNEW that people would be making tons of Master Bounty Hunters.
The reason isn't because they can hunt Jedi. The reason is...it's the only profession in the game that has a PURPOSE that is actually found in the game content through the missions system.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Comments
I honestly believe your assessment is wrong.
The CU did wonders for this game. I agree, it's unfortunate it had to be done in the first place, but it is a better game now because of it.
Secondly, this is nothing like EQ. In EQ you had hundreds of skills and abilities, and spells. here you have 10? 12? How many of those are useful to you? And that was BEFORE the CU. There is little content in the classes unlike EQ. And this is nothing of the size and composition.
The grind is not nearly as bad as EQ, but there is hardly the same content, and never will be.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I really love to throw in my two cent but I have to wait for the wheel to turn. Please reread my old posts concerning this issue - Best to all.
Unaware of the Jestor?
http://about.me/JestorRodo/
Friends enjoy his classic Vblog - https://www.facebook.com/GoodOldReliableNathan
People will soon realize that the terms "1st generation, 2nd generation" etc are bullshit. They are marketing terms that companies and developers use to try and differentiate their upcoming game from the current games.
The simple fact is that when people buy a game and play it, either its a polished, quality and FUN game or it isn't. Buzzwords like "next generation MMO" don't mean anything to me especially when some of these games which were touted as "2nd generation" like EQ2 ended up being LESS fun than their predecessors.
This I love. I agree completely. And can tell you why.
Because gamers accept less and less perfection to get their hands on a game. I think its quite sad. Which each new game release gamers are lowering their expectation more and more. This year we saw a horrible release in Mourning. Yet I am willing to bet in another 2 or 3 years that will be completely acceptable and normal for a game to be released in that condition.
You would not go to a movie if it hadnt been edited. You would not buy a car missing its engine. You would not pay for a hamburger missing the bun. You would not accept a phone service that didnt have phone lines or signals. And you wouldnt buy a computer missing a video card. But people are more then happy to go slap $50 on a counter for a game that is missing a ton of things.
Its completely unacceptable to me. We even provide the excuses for the game companies. I loved sitting on the forums for SWG before beta, after the NDA was lifted and listening to the players saying how its expected and do we all know what goes into a game and the money and so on and so forth. I dont care what time is involved, manpower, money, etc. They took the task up. They accepted the job. No one put a gun to their head. If they cant handle it then they need to go find another line of production. Plain and simple. Incompetence (and SOE is very incompetent) is never an excuse.
Trust me here. You start putting serious penalities on companies so they lose a ton of money if a game is released with massive bugs and missing features like SWG, and I promise you the games we get will be cleaner and alot more refined.
Now I should explain I can understand when a bug slips by. You can have 2000 beta testers for a year and still a bug will slip by. That I can fully understand. But when the developers and marketing know the bugs exist and know features wont be in then there is no excuse.
Kai
Thats a statement I can definitely say is wrong. On all of the 12 servers I know personally. On all of the 4 servers I play regularily (Naritus, TC Prime, Europe-Farstar, Europe-Chimaera).
A lot of people do the force sensitive quests to get a free second toon (which means that technically they are padawan, but they dont continue on to Jedi). But there are still many that are not even interested in that.
Dont let the impression you see in Dantooine Mining Outpost make you think that THIS is SWG. You only see the grind aspect, not the other 90 % of the game. And not the many people that play and craft and entertain on the other planets, especially in their player city workshops and malls.
Have fun
Erillion
The simple fact is that when people buy a game and play it, either its a polished, quality and FUN game or it isn't. Buzzwords like "next generation MMO" don't mean anything to me especially when some of these games which were touted as "2nd generation" like EQ2 ended up being LESS fun than their predecessors.
Playing several games and having played even more - old and "new" style - I DO think there is a difference in principle between e.g. WoW and Guild Wars. Its not all marketing speech IMHO. So we agree to disagree here.
Have fun
Erillion
There is a difference in design of the games themselves, but the principle is the same.
1 - World of Warcraft is the best 1st generation MMO made.
This doesn't mean it's better in all regards than EQ was. It's not. The combat system leaves a lot to be desired, and the world size isn't even close. WoW, though, sports the same ole same ole questing and leveling system EQ did. It's just more refined.
2 - Guild Wars is the same thing.
Questing, brought down to team levels. The only real difference is that the combat system is so simplified that it can hardly be called a 'system', but THIS is where the character content is supposed to reside first. Lacking this content, lacking raid content, lacking solo content, Guild Wars won't realize all that much of a market share in the end. They targeted too specific of a playerbase.
Neither is a next-generation MMO. The nextgen MMOs haven't been done yet, EXCEPT for Star Wars: Galaxies. This game was supposed to be that model for the next 5-8 years of MMO design. It had the advantage of being one of the most popular background Sagas in recent history. It was a sci-fi based MMO, instead of the old Tolkeinish stand-by. It was supposed to be skill-based, with more concentration on 'community' than anything else.
They failed most of these, and as a result that Next Generation has been put on hold, as this has scared the bajeezuz out of a lot of upstarts.
It's almost as if Galaxies were designed to remove other potential competitors through scare tactics lol.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
There is a difference in design of the games themselves, but the principle is the same.
1 - World of Warcraft is the best 1st generation MMO made.
This doesn't mean it's better in all regards than EQ was. It's not. The combat system leaves a lot to be desired, and the world size isn't even close. WoW, though, sports the same ole same ole questing and leveling system EQ did. It's just more refined.
2 - Guild Wars is the same thing.
Questing, brought down to team levels. The only real difference is that the combat system is so simplified that it can hardly be called a 'system', but THIS is where the character content is supposed to reside first. Lacking this content, lacking raid content, lacking solo content, Guild Wars won't realize all that much of a market share in the end. They targeted too specific of a playerbase.
Neither is a next-generation MMO. The nextgen MMOs haven't been done yet, EXCEPT for Star Wars: Galaxies. This game was supposed to be that model for the next 5-8 years of MMO design. It had the advantage of being one of the most popular background Sagas in recent history. It was a sci-fi based MMO, instead of the old Tolkeinish stand-by. It was supposed to be skill-based, with more concentration on 'community' than anything else.
They failed most of these, and as a result that Next Generation has been put on hold, as this has scared the bajeezuz out of a lot of upstarts.
It's almost as if Galaxies were designed to remove other potential competitors through scare tactics lol.
That maybe why some of us are so passionately angry about this game. We put such faith in this game. It was going to set the stage. It was going to change MMOs from 90% high fantasy to a mix. But it never even scratched the edge. Never even came remotely close.
Kai
Of course there is a difference between Guild Wars and WoW - they are two different types of games. This is like saying there is a design difference between Diablo2 and EQ.
I'm asking a simple question here, but can you tell me what differentiates a "2nd generation MMORPG" from a "1st generation" one? EQ2 was supposed to be 2nd generation - they were supposed to take everything they learned from EQ and apply it in a new and exciting way to create this kind of revolutionary game. What they failed to do was sit down and say "hey, is this game fun? Is it something players will enjoy playing again and again, day after day?".
Of course, if you don't even FINISH your game and release it in beta form, then the entire debate is moot.
1 - Zones are seamless in SWG.
2 - No levels. Skills.
3 - Missions, not quests, and they were initially supposed to be dynamic not story-lines.
4 - A concentration on WHAT IT MEANS TO 'BE' IN THE STAR WARS UNIVERSE.
This last was the critical failure. They haven't yet gotten around to even agreeing on what that meant.
Some of us have tried like hell to explain the needs of the Star Wars Fan, for one thing, and they respond in such a way as to say, "Just not interested in that anymore". What this means is that they are totally ignoring the target market.
Lastly, casual gameplay. Here they succeeded. But, shortly after release Koster started talking about the Hardcore player being the 'Core Community'. In fact, what he meant to say was the 'fanboi' is the core community, and will continue playing the product no matter how many times he is kicked in the teeth.
In other words, they were designing initially the next generation MMO. It was ambitious, but inevitably a failure considering the return on that investment versus what they could have realized. This has always been a management failure.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
i SORT OF agree with Aildrik here in that the differences between 1st and 2nd (3rd or however many there are) generation games is mostly moot int he eyes of the community. however, i agree with Wepps that there are definilty differences and a true line between generations of MMO's.
There will always be games that come out that are straightforward level runs. gain xp, gain a level, get skills and abilities based on that level, rinse and repeat. it's familiar, easy to learn, and easy to identify rewards in the system. players will always be able to identify with such a straight forward system. even when one day even WoW is long buried, there will be a game (probably more then 1) thay uses the "old school" levelling system.
Then games like SWG, that try to break the mold with a whole new progression system. More complicated? maybe. harder to distinguish balance? maybe. it all comes down to implementation. i believe that at the core SWG does a good job, but there's a lot of polish and tweaking required to make it just right. That and there have been some sh1tty management decisions that have alienated huge sections of the playerbase.
I love the game, and will continue playing. but i can certainly see why so many people have issues with the game. even i have strong feelings about it, i'm a smuggler
btw, for the last page and half...everyone has done a great job keeping this discussion very productive. the flames are dying out and good points are being brought up on both sides. see? we can hold civil conversations..we just need about 50 posts or so to get the kinks out
********************************
MMO Name: InVictus Kell
Currently Playing:
EVE Online
********************************
I have Been reading this topic in utmost silence
the sneaky bastard that i am .. and i have to agree with Wheezal .. this is much more better , productive and amusing to read then all the flaming .. especially with a topic name like this it is wuz bound to be a flame-orama but eventually it died 
... i also love star wars galaxies so much that i don't use the problems / kinks / buggy's /or any other crap to become between me and the game 
keep the good work going !
greets from the Draakske
Problem is people are assuming gaming companies think like gamers. Gamers see genertion 1-2-3 etc in terms of advancements to the gameplay, new ideas, new innovations pushing the envelope.
Gaming companies dont look at it that way, true enough they do make differences, but the differences are incremental at best, over a period of 10 years, all those differences add up but for the 1-3 year period they dont. Instead what gaming companies use almost exclusively as a barometer of success in advancing a game, are graphics or new surround 22.1 sound. If you have to buy a new system to play it, then they pat themselves on the back and proclaim in press conferences the new best thing.
They used to think of it that way.
They don't anymore. The first generation is over. To them, World of Warcraft is a 2nd generation MMO and that's true from the development companies' perspectives.
Galaxies was the game that SHOULD have defined the genre in general, and if I had to choose one key aspect of 2nd gen, this would be it. A fully defined method of development.
Instead, Jack Emmert over at City of Heroes decided he'd be arrogant enough to do it, and although CoH had the best release in MMO history (from the player's perspective), his is turning out to be a failure in that respect as well.
The truth is, there is one best way to build a great MMO, and there is one best way to manage it after its marketing. Defining that best method is what would make a given company wildly successful, assuming they could implement those principles.
Nobody has done it yet. Just saying an MMO is MASSIVE, its MULTIPLAYER, and it's ONLINE, is not what we mean by defining the genre either. It's more than just that kind of rubbish.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
********************************
MMO Name: InVictus Kell
Currently Playing:
EVE Online
********************************
Adding to the features (things that SWG has, but WoW has not) of modern MMORPGs I would add :
a) Full 3D ... "almost photo"-realism if you run the game at max settings
b) complete customization of avatar so no two toons are alike
c) Player driven economy
d) Crafting in no way related to combat - you can be a crafter for years and never touch a weapon
e) true social professions (e.g. musician and dancer), that dont have to be crafters or fighters
f) Player Event Tools
g) Space Fighter simulation (so a twitch action element besides the ground game ... Where is my WoW sea battle expansion ? Flying combat expansion :-) ??)
h) free character evolution (not getting stuck in a level or class or career)
and things that should be in (which SWG does not yet have)
i) full voice over Internet support build in
j) dynamic surround sound audio
k) cinematic cut scenes taken from the movies or specifically shot for the game (hey, its a movie franchise game !! ... Wing Commander had that already ) for specific instanced quests
l) capitol ships (plus strategic gaming ...think Battlefield 2 commander mode )
m) players as event promoters (think EVE ISD team ) with limited "god mode" for events only (to be censored by Dev Event team)
n) speaking NPCs (not speech bubbles, but spoken dialogue that branches based on player choice)
o) MUCH better mob AI ( think modern FPS shooters) for the higher level mobs
p) physics engine (think HAVOC engine)
All these things you wont see in a 1st or 2nd generation MMORPG.
Have fun
Erillion
You forgot regression testing Erillion. ^_^
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Well if this poll is any indication, and I think it is...
We can expect half the population to bug out when they start selling expansions geared toward Jedi.
Too much time has been devoted to that profession, and they aren't even promising anything reasonable to the Smuggler yet, which is a major selling point of Star Wars.
My conclusion as to why this is the case - it is simply because SOE is way too big. It must be run by professional business management, who typically have no concept even of the product they sell, and often no real leadership skills.
The top-end management is too far removed from the realities and needs of the community. By the time any information gets to them, it has passed through a number of other supervisory levels who are trying to cover their own errors, and sending fudged numbers up the line. Even if top management were an excellent team of leaders, their decisions are likely based on falsehoods. Of course, this all assumes that they are interested in anything apart from a quick buck.
Leadership is the critical issue in this case. My reasoning is this - whether or not you like the CU, they implemented PRECISELY what they said they would. They started by defining rolls of professions in combat, and implemented them in such a way as to suggest that they are quite capable of doing so when they have the right leadership. The CU team did an excellent job.
So, it's not the developers themselves. It's the priorities, and therefore the leadership, the management, that have created this ongoing fiasco.
After 5 years, I can see no clear way to solving the problem without removal of the management, and replacement by those with direct experience in the CU and other excellent upgrades, capable of understanding the necessities required by the community, and with those excellent leadership skills. Unless this happens, I believe the game will become unrecoverable by the time of the next expansion releases.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
I agree Erillion, but I don't have the tolerance for being lied to as some other people do.
At what point does each person realize that SOE has been feeding us misinformation?
Let's address this issue here....
1 - They promised JTL in about a year after release. They delivered it.
2 - They promised the Combat Upgrade, delivered it 3 months late, but here it is.
3 - Any further discussions concerning Expansions have had their timetables met to-date.
Aside from these specific issues, in which 2 is borderline, I honestly believe that everything else has been a continual feeding of the 'core playerbase' with false information concerning the development of the game, and the game itself.
Given this, I honeslty believe they are lying to themselves! Each department, with exceptions surely, is lying to the next department, and the result has been ongoing confusion among the development team in general for all this time.
Back in beta, there were obviously TONS of issues and bugs to deal with. But in those days, I would /bug a number of things, and then make a list to the main website at the end of my testing day. No kidding, often by the time I would start testing the next day, the problems were nearly ALL RESOLVED.
It was very efficient, and very professional in those days.
10 days before release, they patched-in the final release version of the game, and all hell broke loose. It was essentially a TOTALLY DIFFERENT GAME than what we had been testing all that time! The beta testers, released from their non-disclosure agreements, hit the external forums in droves...warning people to avoid the game until it was solidified into a working format, which now was totally buggy with tons of balance issues.
At that exact same period of time, two things occurred:
1 - The development team stopped talking to us entirely, and refused to fix bugs, or implement the many excellent ideas. "Thank you, here's your hot poker up the wazoo for payment."
2 - I personally went external, and assured the potential players that they were in for a treat, because I had much experience with a very efficient development team. I promised that the game would be in perfect working order by month 3, based upon my experiences with that team.
But, what I didn't realize at the time was that the BUSINESS management, often referred to as the Post-Release Management of the game had already decided to leave it run to its own devices, without a serious effort to fix the thousands of bugs.
So, in those first 3 months ONLY the absolute game-breaking bugs were addressed, and most of the development resources turned immedaitely towards...Jump to Lightspeed, and nerfing of the game content.
During, and often after that time period, you would find a new cave somewhere being declared as Awesome Content by the developers, which in every case was nerfed out of existence within 36 hours of implementation in a patch.
Locations where players were seeking interesting and fun content, like the Tusken Fort, were nerfed (like in that case) 4 times, and removed as viable content.
Professions were being nerfed one after the other every month.
Players began to realize that there was....NOTHING TO LOOK FORWARD TO, and started leaving the game in large numbers by month 3.
This post-release management is what I am talking about. These guys have NOOOO CLUEEEEE, and honestly, I feel they would be better suited as car wash employees, rather than people of any authority whatsoever. They are INCOMPETENT, and continue to be so in my opinion.
They refuse, for example, to understand that they would realize more revenues as people returned to the game if they just finally implemented SMUGGLING, than they can ever hope to realize from yet another expansion, which based upon information from SOE is already unbalanced in nature.
The MMO's greatest return to the developers is in the RETURNING PLAYERBASE, in the monthly fees. If they could just see that, they would realize that this expansion-happy company does more to drive people AWAY, than bring them in with those expansions. The product does no longer warrant further purchases of expansions by the players, if they refuse to resolve the very important issues that make Star Wars great. CONTENT IS FOUND IN THE PROFESSIONS THEMSELVES.
They had only begun to address this in the Bounty Hunter profession. If they could just expand it to include all the professions, people would be returning to this game in more numbers than ever left!
I honestly believe that. And I believe that the current management of this product is incapable of seeing it that way, and therefore they must go.
It's NOT where a player can GO that makes Star Wars. It's what they can DO.
As soon as they gave out the free respecs, and I was returning to the game, I KNEW that people would be making tons of Master Bounty Hunters.
The reason isn't because they can hunt Jedi. The reason is...it's the only profession in the game that has a PURPOSE that is actually found in the game content through the missions system.
__________________________
"For one who seeks what he cannot obtain suffers torture; one who has what is not desirable is cheated; and one who does not seek what is worth seeking is diseased." - Augustine of Hippo
Hi All
its really not necessary to have respec for bh profession. if u play 8 or 10 hours (1 day to 10 days) u ll be a MBH in this system.
go endor take jobs, dont take any train till u got enough xp for investigation its fun.
Weapons are no metter couse in a high level group u can take all boxes 2 day max.
I hunt down NPC so funny and somestimes hard. Loot is increadeble.
Engin MBH MC