I have pre-purchased and enjoy GW2, but I for some reason fear the "toxic gameplay" they removed may have been what gave MMORPGs their staying power. I hope it works out, but am still skeptical.
I've always like pvp in games but have never been one to go out and just gank other players simply because the game system allowed it. Maybe I am more of a RPer but I must have a reason before I will attack another player. Na I will not miss the "toxic" game play at all and I applaud Arenanet for their insight on limiting it. I also thing they have done a fabulous job of promoting community within GW2.
I don't attempt to answer these question until I have been playing the game for 1-2 months.
Agreed, many games seems fun the first few days or even weeks but gets boring fast.
But so far it do look great, I don't think I ever had so fun in a beta before. Ad frankly don't I care is a game is all the things OP mentioned, I just want a fun game that doesn't feel like I already played it for years after 1 hours of playing.
Well, birds evolved from the dinosaurs. That was evolution, but we too can say it was a "paradigm shift", because birds fly. No dinosaurs had that hability (pterosaurs were not dinosaurs, they were flyinfg reptiles but not flying dinosaurs)
I guess we are seeing something similar. GW2 have the same features other games have, but it is an evolution to that features. However, how all that evolved features work together is creating an new kind of animal, like a "flying dinosaur".
However, how all that evolved features work together is creating an new kind of animal, like a "flying dinosaur".
I would be more inclined to say, "it may be creating a new kind of animal."
For all we know, a year down the line, people will be forming teams, spamming requests for 'support specced' Elementalits or Guardians, rushing through the open world content, focusing on instanced dungeons, excluding (or mocking) people for their builds (this was not that uncommon in GW1 after all), and so on and so on.
I doubt it myself. I think (based on the small sample we have had a chance to actually test so far) that Anet has done a pretty solid job of tweaking MMO staples to avoid such.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Evolutionary: Of or relating to or produced by a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage
Revolutionary: Markedly new or introducing fundamental change
Pardigm Shift: a change in the basic assumptions within the ruling theory of science. (i.e. flat earth shifting to spherical earth, geocentric orbit changed to heliocentric orbit) This idea has also come to be used colloquially to mean changes that once implemented, do not allow for backtracking, since the new way of doing things is so much better that no one would want to do things the old way again. Think about having a camera, phone, and music player as one device compared to carrying around a camera, a phone, and a walkman separately...you could do this, but why would you?
People do. Individual functions on multipurpose devices are frequently inferior to specialized devices. My apologies for touching on this as it is not really relevant to your point, but a different analogy might serve you better.
The MMO community seems to have issues with the use of these terms when discussing Guild Wars 2. I'm hoping that by defining the 3 terms that seem to be causing the issue, we can all come to agreement that Arenanet took evolutionary steps in the genre of MMORPG's, to introduce a revolutionary product, that should, if accepted by the MMO gaming community, create a paradigm shift.
First we have to agree on the supposition that an MMO will always be an MMO. That means the game exists within a given environment, with an overarching story, and that large numbers of people in the game play in such a way as to discover the overarching story through participation.
MMO's evolved over time and introduced some interesting, but problematic issues into the game type. When World of Warcraft hit the scene it was obvious that their game was evolutionary in it's smoothness and systems, borrowing from previous games and improving significantly upon the designs, which resulted in revolutionary gameplay. The pardigm shift Blizzard created, not obviously apparent, enshrined the toxic behaviors within the overall system that have become associated with MMO's. Reward systems (whether loot based, character based (leveling), or competitive based (PvP), have issues related to grind (the repetitive play of a particular feature to receive a particular reward), player griefing (in game play this can be considered anything anti-social and abusive), and/or 'theft' (this can be related to either fraudulent exploits of other people, stealing someones reward of time and/or effort invested (including kill stealing, Player Killing (PK'ers steal peoples time at a minimum) etc.), as well as real life hacking of accounts). Add to these problems, the overarching problem of game developers and publishers, building in any of the above within their game with the express purpose of maintaining monthly subscription fee and it should come as no surprise that the MMO playing field became more and more toxic to an increasing number of players over time.
All the GW2 development team did was ask, 'Why are people unhappy in these games?” and 'Is it possible to remove many of these issues, while providing a fun experience for all the various types of players in these types of games?' Thus GW1 was born. By using a model of highly instanced play areas and separated PvP, we, as players, saw a nice community being built around the lack of what many consider the reasons to play an MMORPG. As this experiment grew, Arenanet started looking at making a true MMORPG, with the same lack of toxic issues.
This brings us to the above questions. Yes, Arenanet did take many items from many games and include them into theirs. It's my suggestion that this is where evolution comes about. It's not necessary to reinvent a wheel, but it is better to make it out of rubber than wood.
Agreed. GW2's development is incrementally evolutionary in nature.
The genius of this group of designers was a creation of a MMORPG game system WITH a planned goal of removing toxic play. Their realization, definition, and removal of what is toxic in current MMORPG's, while still creating a fun and challenging environment to play in for the vast MAJORITY of MMO players is Arenanet's revolutionary change.
I am sorry but this is pure hyperbole.
First, I would hesitate to say that having a (perhaps admirable) goal equates to genius. My goal is world peace, I have developed a new recipe for brownies to facilitate my goal. This means I am a genius ? Now, if I had, through insight beyond the scope of lesser minds, determined that the root of all war was a lack of sufficiently delicious brownies, and had developed and implemented the perfect plan for mass producing and delivering these war-destroying treats, resulting in world peace...then it might be safe to call me a genius. Until we actually see the final results of A-Nets efforts, it might be just a little presumptuous to call them genius.
Second, exactly what percentage of MMO players comprise your, "vast majority ?" Also keep in mind that what you call, "toxic," others might call, "fun."
I am afraid that I disagree with your position that this is revolutionary. Making an MMO more fun for some portion of the MMO player base by tweaking some of the common systems of the genre is admirable. I was very impressed. But that is not revolutionary.
Will this become the pardigm shift that everyone is waiting for? That will require a crystal ball at this moment. I don't have one of those. This is business. Business is run by profit margins. This could very well be a huge game changer in the genre of MMORPG's IF the sales of the release, subsequent expansions, and the cash shop, generate the profit levels of the monster MMO's of the past. This will create outright copying of the games design and we'll see gw2 clones everywhere. If it does 'alright', then further evolutions based on it are definitely going to occur, as companies strive for the success of past MMO's. If GW2 fails to capture a significant part of the market? It's just another footnote in the dearth of MMORPG companies that wish they had done something else. For many people, if this game does not become the 20'teens' version of WoW, the game will have failed in their eyes. I'm not amongst that crowd. However, I do think that for a game that is trying to bring originality back to a genre that has moved so far towards cookie cutter systems, I give them huge amounts of thanks (as well as $$$ for the CE!).
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
ANet's evolutionary idea was to provide those who are not satisfied with many current MMO's with an alternative in which some of the points of dissatisfaction are alleviated to one degree or another.
To date I have not seen any indication that GW2 is supposed to be healthier than any other MMO or that there is a real expectation that it will be more profitable than other MMOs.
Thank you for the read, but, as much as I am a huge fan of ANet and am very much looking forward to GW2, I can not agree with many of your statements.
Thanks for the input. First phones were the best analogy, since it had the nuance I was looking for...it's flaw is the same as calling a game a paradigm shift...there are reasons and exceptions for everything in the consumer market...people's opinions shape their behavior and do matter. However, if a large % of people think in one direction, then companies will produce things in that direction. Coming up with a product that has benefits different from the norm, and moving the monolithic force that is consumer sentiment is the goal of every company, those that do this successfully once are rare, and I can only think of a couple of companies that were able to do it more than that.
Onto hyperbole. I'm sorry to disagree here, but any company that starts a project with a goal equivalent to world peace, (ok overstating here...but I'll follow your lead) and looks objectively within its market, creates a list of consumer complaints, and ELEGANTLY tries to fix the problems by designing a game system that removes, or severely limits, these problems..sorry that's a bunch of very bright game designers. Some might say that any design that does that is genius. Seriously, Arenanet could have given us exactly the same state of the MMO gamespace, and still kept out the majority of the problems, with a considerable decrease in the time of development...i.e. Open world GW1. They didn't.
As for those that wanted a detailed list of features that accomplished the removal of toxic gameplay, it wasn't my point to provide that. My point was that the fundamental change to this game isn't any particular system within it, it was Arenanet's use of all the systems to provide support to their goal of providing a fun, player friendly, grief free, time sink free, gamespace. (I'll also argue that because you do not have to feel like you are splitting your allegiances between RL and this game, it is a design that is healthier...both emotionally, as well as physically.)
Who cares? The game is doing something no studio has had the balls to do and it's turning out to be a fun ride. I don't need it to wash my clothes or teach me algebra.
taking all the features from warhammer-rift is revolutionary ?
didnt know that...well i guess its the gw2 fangirls way
There is so much wrong with this. If you haven't played, and at this point i'm CERTAIN you haven't, then you wouldn't make such an asanine statement. They took ideas and evolved them. I guarantee nothing is "copied". Fine, you don't like it. Move the hell on please.
You seem to be leaving out the largest part of what a paradigm shift is or does. It is not used for entertainment to describe the next big thing. It is a scientific term applied generally to advances in physical science, medicine, technology etc etc that profoundly and forever change and alter society.
See examples cited? These are no on the same level as a video game.
Also notice the section:
Marketing:
In the later part of the 1990s, 'paradigm shift' emerged as a buzzword, popularized as marketing speak and appearing more frequently in print and publication.[8] In his book, Mind The Gaffe, author Larry Trask advises readers to refrain from using it, and to use caution when reading anything that contains the phrase. It is referred to in several articles and books[9][10] as abused and overused to the point of becoming meaningless.
I do believe I explained the difference between the proper use and the colloquial use. One author's opinion does not vocabulary change.
Colloquialism is a term used to describe slang or jargon. Not for the minimizing or demeaning of a term.
Ok...and I meant colloquialism to mean the popular usage of the term (slang or marketing jargon), not the strict definition...(which I provided, not only in definition form, but with proper examples of).
I think they just took typical complaints made by players as a starting point. I mean, the past 8 years there have been made always the same complaints again and again and again:
-I do not want to do any "kill x of y"-quests anymore!
-If I accomplish heroic deeds, I want to see an effect in the world I am playing in!
-Raiding for items as THE no 1 endcontent sucks!
-I hate grinding, when do they make an MMO without grinding?
-I want to have fun with my friends, I do not want to be told, that I am useless, because my armor is too bad. I hate addons like gearscore and recount that always tell me, how bad I am. Are MMOs just about numbers?
-Mobs are stupidly standing around waiting to be killed, I want a more dynamic world, where mobs are dangerous, wander around and destroy things.
-I want failure! If we do not complete our quest, something very bad should happen!
-I want to explore a fantasy-world and enjoy adventures and not to make the same stupid quests again and again.
-PvE should encourage players to work together and not to seperate themselves from each other or even reward unsocial behaviour (kill-stealing, ninja-looting, etc.)!
-The game should be about having fun from lvl 1 and not about reaching end-game as fast as possible and then getting epics.
-This is derivated from pen and paper! Where are the traps and the riddles?
-They should find a way to include roleplaying as a game-mechanic.
-I want interesting quests, where I have to do things apart from fighting, where I can make decicions, I want branching!
-I hate it, when I come back as a high-level and there are 20 wolves around me that I can all kill with one blow.
-Combat is dull, although I have 40 abilities, I'm just standing around hitting the same 3 buttons over and over again.
-This whole tanking-healing-spanking-thing is completely outdated and annoying. I do not want to play a healer, but waiting for one is awful. Is nobody out there who can invent something new?
-PvP has to be balanced, please no honor system and no itemization!
-Why does nobody make a 3-faction-PvP with castles, siege-weapons and all the cool stuff like in DAoC?
I have read such sentences hundreds of times and I have even posted some of these hundreds of times. And there were always the same answers:
-MMOs have always been like that and will always be.
-This is impossible, this is too expensive, they cannot do such things in an MMO.
-Casual noobs like you are the reason why MMOs are so bad today, shut up!
ArenaNet just used their rational minds to make a very logical conclusion:
If there are so many players, who complain about these things. Why don't we make exactly the game they want?
How easy!
And one can already see, how other companies are beginning to react.
This is a beautiful post. It made me smile. I feel very lucky to have GW2. I'm even excited for the stress test on Monday, just so I can be logged in again. And if me enjoying a game makes me a "fangirl" then so be it. Like I care what trolls say anyway. They're just a bunch of jealous tools.
From a Fanboy point of view, yes. from a real world point f view, NO.
Ahh I was waiting for this guy to post lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
- Dynamic Events, events that make diference on world, events that scale in dificulty according number of players, events that can trick other events, etc
- Combat system, a action game (no its not like skyrim with is full aim system but isnt tha aim that make games considered action games) that is fun and same time challenge. a action combat system that is very tactical, need to think what is your best options agaisnt enemy or you will die very often
- combos skills, put fire on ground and than send some arrows that became flammable is just awesome. combos skills are an invitation to cooperate with other players, is extremely fun and add moe tactics to the game
- underwater combat/exploration, have almost the same detail that land have. i didnt really like the underwater combat but the exploration is just amazing
- WvW
- sPvP, a place where competitive players can join after the 1s second enter in game. a place where the only thing matter is the skil of player not armour/weapon stats
- graphics / art style / world details, everything is beautiful and the details put on this game is incredible. i will not gonna spoiler but in LA have amazing things xD
- quests, or the lack of them, no more boring quests of" kill 10x of this" or "kill that and pick x item" etc
- no specific classes, no dps / tank / heal class (i dont know if any other game dont exist a tank that cant agro mobs so i put this as an evolution and not revolution feature)
-exploration, the game invite you to explore the all world. i was lvling up and i couldnt care less, i just want explore world. a game where i almost dont look to exp bar (they even could remove the bar and will be fine for me xD) say how amazing is the game
- do what you want, when you want and because you want, seem that is a minor feature but is a big thing...
-» GW2 is a revolution in:
- game philosophy, show me other game where the philosophy of game is help others in an active way. cant, dont exist. help other in GW2 is fun, give exp and make battles feel like...real battles. lol. this was the feature that make me say WOW, this game is really a revolution in this aspect. help others outside party? this cant work right? its work and is awesome xDD
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
Except they did this part in Guil Wars, not GW2.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
IMO GW2 is just over-reted and over-hyped. I bought pre-order, played beta and I didn't like it. It doesn't matter if it is revolutionary or not. At the end of the day is about whether ppl will play it or not. I know I don't like it and I regret spending 60 dollars or so on GW2.
I would like to see you do a thread on "exactly" what you didn't like.
IMO GW2 is just over-reted and over-hyped. I bought pre-order, played beta and I didn't like it. It doesn't matter if it is revolutionary or not. At the end of the day is about whether ppl will play it or not. I know I don't like it and I regret spending 60 dollars or so on GW2.
When people say these types of things, I question the validity of your statements. If you are going to go out of you way and off-topic to saying "I didn't like it", at least give some justification in your post. Make your post matter, saying "I don't like it" doesn't give anything to discuss. I'm not sure why you posted on the Guild Wars 2 forums, went into a thread debating the application of revolutionary and other terms to GW2, and then proceeded to make a post that was off-topic and simple minded. If you are going to say something, at least try to appear intelligent.
Look closely at the poster.
- Low post count
- Posted only positive Tera posts
- Posted two almost identical anti-GW2 posts (the one you quoted, and the post yesterday in the Tera forum)
I think you can draw your own conclusions from there...
You really have to becareful about how you describe the definition of a "Paradigm Shift". After all, its real purpose is not to show what has occured through evolution, but what unproven facts (theories) are now held as the current beliefs of the majority as a whole.
Just because a theory takes the place of a previous theory, doesn't make it a better more evolved one. It is essentially like comparing fads that fade with time as they are replaced with new ones. One fad is never better than another if those who view the fads are always equally viewing them in the same light as previous ones.
In short.. Paradigm Shift does not equal evolution.
I agree with you on this point. It's not my point that a system of incremental change in something causes a paradigm shift. It's my opinion that by utilizing a model of constant improvement, Arenanet has happened upon a very basic truth of MMO's, and is trying to change the model.
The current state is creating unhappy players, because of issues inherent to the genre. Whether it's people suffering with issues in RL caused by the demands of playing these games, people disliking griefing, people disliking the amount of time required to play, etc. As I posted elsewhere, they could have provided a 'business safe' play experience by just making GW1 Open World.
They didn't, they looked at the problems, and decided to create an elegant solution to them. This solution, based on changing how players are treated by the game, MIGHT be large enough to make the current state of the genre untenable for a lot of players. That's a discussion for post release.
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
Short Answer, NO
Long Answer? I don't think GW2 is as "revoluntionary" as most would like to think it is. I played GW1 day 1 of release for about 3months and then quit because I "completed the game" pretty much. Rolled about 3 more toons, finished them out completely, got everything I wanted nodded my head and quit. A good story, but low retention rate for GW1.
GW2? I've seen MANY elements of GW2 in many other games, and they brought it together in a way these previous games couldn't. Does that mean GW2 is "Revolutionary"? Absolutely not.
-Similarly, does that make GW2 a "Bad Game"? Aboslutely not, but it doesn't make it the next "WoW Killer".
1) Your conclusion adds "WoW Killer" in for no apparent reason with no context.
2) I think "Revolutionary" as a term does not have to mean it is something completely original... especially considering NOTHING is original, everything is an iteration on something. For example, the iPhone took many things that were good about phones and PDAs, then they streamlined the OS by taking out what they thought was superflous to a touch screen device, polished the overall experience and BAM! The smartphone is now pushing well past the popularity of any other type of phone BECAUSE of the iPhone. I'm no apple fan, but its pretty safe to assume that the iPhone was revolutionary even though it really is a product that iterated on what was already there and distilled/streamlined the user experience.
I think it is possible to consider GW2 as revolutionary in the MMO themepark space, though it will take alot of time to see if that pans out because revolutionary also requires some affirmation from the masses actually choosing to enjoy it and demand its featureset in other games.
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
Except they did this part in Guil Wars, not GW2.
And they are moving this game design into the MMORPG model. A very different animal than GW1.
The last thing this game needs are posts touting it to be revolutionairy, evolutionairy and to be shifting paradigms..! Talking about definitions; the OP is the definition of HYPE! You cant blame the devs for hyping the game when fanbois do it all by them selves.
The last thing this game needs are posts touting it to be revolutionairy, evolutionairy and to be shifting paradigms..! Talking about definitions; the OP is the definition of HYPE! You cant blame the devs for hyping the game when fanbois do it all by them selves.
lol. must be blind to dont see the obvious changes that arenanet made in GW2 compared with others MMORPG. you can say that the game dont have a really one feature that is revolutionary, but you cant deny that have lot of features that are evolutions from other games.
if the game is hyped? yes, but if arenanet deliver what they promise who cares about the hype??? until now they deliver everything they say and this is a very rare thing to see in companys (in fact i never saw other game company really listen players and acepted suggestion...)
Evolutionary: Of or relating to or produced by a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage
Revolutionary: Markedly new or introducing fundamental change
Pardigm Shift: a change in the basic assumptions within the ruling theory of science. (i.e. flat earth shifting to spherical earth, geocentric orbit changed to heliocentric orbit) This idea has also come to be used colloquially to mean changes that once implemented, do not allow for backtracking, since the new way of doing things is so much better that no one would want to do things the old way again. Think about having a camera, phone, and music player as one device compared to carrying around a camera, a phone, and a walkman separately...you could do this, but why would you?
People do. Individual functions on multipurpose devices are frequently inferior to specialized devices. My apologies for touching on this as it is not really relevant to your point, but a different analogy might serve you better.
The MMO community seems to have issues with the use of these terms when discussing Guild Wars 2. I'm hoping that by defining the 3 terms that seem to be causing the issue, we can all come to agreement that Arenanet took evolutionary steps in the genre of MMORPG's, to introduce a revolutionary product, that should, if accepted by the MMO gaming community, create a paradigm shift.
First we have to agree on the supposition that an MMO will always be an MMO. That means the game exists within a given environment, with an overarching story, and that large numbers of people in the game play in such a way as to discover the overarching story through participation.
MMO's evolved over time and introduced some interesting, but problematic issues into the game type. When World of Warcraft hit the scene it was obvious that their game was evolutionary in it's smoothness and systems, borrowing from previous games and improving significantly upon the designs, which resulted in revolutionary gameplay. The pardigm shift Blizzard created, not obviously apparent, enshrined the toxic behaviors within the overall system that have become associated with MMO's. Reward systems (whether loot based, character based (leveling), or competitive based (PvP), have issues related to grind (the repetitive play of a particular feature to receive a particular reward), player griefing (in game play this can be considered anything anti-social and abusive), and/or 'theft' (this can be related to either fraudulent exploits of other people, stealing someones reward of time and/or effort invested (including kill stealing, Player Killing (PK'ers steal peoples time at a minimum) etc.), as well as real life hacking of accounts). Add to these problems, the overarching problem of game developers and publishers, building in any of the above within their game with the express purpose of maintaining monthly subscription fee and it should come as no surprise that the MMO playing field became more and more toxic to an increasing number of players over time.
All the GW2 development team did was ask, 'Why are people unhappy in these games?” and 'Is it possible to remove many of these issues, while providing a fun experience for all the various types of players in these types of games?' Thus GW1 was born. By using a model of highly instanced play areas and separated PvP, we, as players, saw a nice community being built around the lack of what many consider the reasons to play an MMORPG. As this experiment grew, Arenanet started looking at making a true MMORPG, with the same lack of toxic issues.
This brings us to the above questions. Yes, Arenanet did take many items from many games and include them into theirs. It's my suggestion that this is where evolution comes about. It's not necessary to reinvent a wheel, but it is better to make it out of rubber than wood.
Agreed. GW2's development is incrementally evolutionary in nature.
The genius of this group of designers was a creation of a MMORPG game system WITH a planned goal of removing toxic play. Their realization, definition, and removal of what is toxic in current MMORPG's, while still creating a fun and challenging environment to play in for the vast MAJORITY of MMO players is Arenanet's revolutionary change.
I am sorry but this is pure hyperbole.
First, I would hesitate to say that having a (perhaps admirable) goal equates to genius. My goal is world peace, I have developed a new recipe for brownies to facilitate my goal. This means I am a genius ? Now, if I had, through insight beyond the scope of lesser minds, determined that the root of all war was a lack of sufficiently delicious brownies, and had developed and implemented the perfect plan for mass producing and delivering these war-destroying treats, resulting in world peace...then it might be safe to call me a genius. Until we actually see the final results of A-Nets efforts, it might be just a little presumptuous to call them genius.
Second, exactly what percentage of MMO players comprise your, "vast majority ?" Also keep in mind that what you call, "toxic," others might call, "fun."
I am afraid that I disagree with your position that this is revolutionary. Making an MMO more fun for some portion of the MMO player base by tweaking some of the common systems of the genre is admirable. I was very impressed. But that is not revolutionary.
Will this become the pardigm shift that everyone is waiting for? That will require a crystal ball at this moment. I don't have one of those. This is business. Business is run by profit margins. This could very well be a huge game changer in the genre of MMORPG's IF the sales of the release, subsequent expansions, and the cash shop, generate the profit levels of the monster MMO's of the past. This will create outright copying of the games design and we'll see gw2 clones everywhere. If it does 'alright', then further evolutions based on it are definitely going to occur, as companies strive for the success of past MMO's. If GW2 fails to capture a significant part of the market? It's just another footnote in the dearth of MMORPG companies that wish they had done something else. For many people, if this game does not become the 20'teens' version of WoW, the game will have failed in their eyes. I'm not amongst that crowd. However, I do think that for a game that is trying to bring originality back to a genre that has moved so far towards cookie cutter systems, I give them huge amounts of thanks (as well as $$$ for the CE!).
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
ANet's evolutionary idea was to provide those who are not satisfied with many current MMO's with an alternative in which some of the points of dissatisfaction are alleviated to one degree or another.
To date I have not seen any indication that GW2 is supposed to be healthier than any other MMO or that there is a real expectation that it will be more profitable than other MMOs.
Thank you for the read, but, as much as I am a huge fan of ANet and am very much looking forward to GW2, I can not agree with many of your statements.
Thanks for the input. First phones were the best analogy, since it had the nuance I was looking for...it's flaw is the same as calling a game a paradigm shift...there are reasons and exceptions for everything in the consumer market...people's opinions shape their behavior and do matter. However, if a large % of people think in one direction, then companies will produce things in that direction. Coming up with a product that has benefits different from the norm, and moving the monolithic force that is consumer sentiment is the goal of every company, those that do this successfully once are rare, and I can only think of a couple of companies that were able to do it more than that.
I am not normally comfortable stating what the goal is for every "anything." The implication that I would know what everyone/thing/etc wants seems a bit farfetched to me. On the other hand I am less uncomfortable with saying that I believe that the goal of every company is not to, "come up with a product different from the norm," but rather to make a profit. Getting consumers to like your brand of tennis shoes, cola, breakfast cereal, whatever, that are not really significantly (if at all) from your competitors does help with this, but there is a reason that many companies spend more money on market research, marketing, advertising, etc than they do on research and development. Many companies do not produce a product at all.
Onto hyperbole. I'm sorry to disagree here, but any company that starts a project with a goal equivalent to world peace, (ok overstating here...but I'll follow your lead) and looks objectively within its market, creates a list of consumer complaints, and ELEGANTLY tries to fix the problems by designing a game system that removes, or severely limits, these problems..sorry that's a bunch of very bright game designers. Some might say that any design that does that is genius. Seriously, Arenanet could have given us exactly the same state of the MMO gamespace, and still kept out the majority of the problems, with a considerable decrease in the time of development...i.e. Open world GW1. They didn't.
I do not believe that having a goal and trying to implement it is supportable as a definition of genius. Particularly in a situation where we have not seen proof that they succeeded. Your definition of genius would make creating the very "problems" that you credit Anet with trying to fix as being an act of genius. Now, if it turns out that Anet is right, that their plan works, that their theories are accurate, that they do achieve their stated goals, then I might be inclined to accept the label of genius for their efforts. Even then though, I would have some reservations.
There are a lot of companies that have not opted to release an open world version of GW1, that does not make them geniuses.
As to whether or not the referenced section of your post was hypebole: Can you support your claim regarding the vast majority of MMO players ? Such a claim is pretty much the text-book definition of hyperbole. As is describing an unfinished and not fully tested product as a work of genius.
As for those that wanted a detailed list of features that accomplished the removal of toxic gameplay, it wasn't my point to provide that. My point was that the fundamental change to this game isn't any particular system within it, it was Arenanet's use of all the systems to provide support to their goal of providing a fun, player friendly, grief free, time sink free, gamespace. (I'll also argue that because you do not have to feel like you are splitting your allegiances between RL and this game, it is a design that is healthier...both emotionally, as well as physically.
We do not know that GW2 will be grief free. What happens if a group of "griefers" approach an event en masse to cause it to scale up, and then play in such a fashion as to not fully participate in completing the event. Would this not, potentially, cause grief to those who were legitimately trying to pursue the event ? This is something that is already being discussed on these boards. I do not know the answer, and am not sure that one weekend beta event is sufficient to judge the efforts to prevent griefing in an MMO.
I am also not certain that it is possible to accurately state that the game is fun, unless you qualify it by saying, "for some people." I found it to be fun, but I know others that did not.
I feel pretty confident in stating that the game is not time sink free. The act of collecting pets is a time sink. The act of collecting dyes is a time sink. Now, you may like these time sinks, but for others they may be no less grindy than elements in other games.
As to player friendly ? I cannot really say that I understand what you specifically mean by that. Personally I found the emphasis on pets for Rangers to be extremely unfriendly to this (me) player. I know others that prefer playing a dedicated support character, a healer in particular, that don't consider the design of GW2 to be particularly friendly to their preferred playstyle.
I have never felt the need to split allegience between RL and a game prior to GW2, so I am not sure how, exactly, this game is supposed to be healthier for me (mentally or physically). If it is so much more fun than any previous game, isnt there the potential for people to be even more drawn into it, forgoing RL commitments, than is true in other games that, "the vast majority," of MMO players don't enjoy as much ?
My point is not that GW2 isnt a well designed and truly great game. I just don't know that describing an unreleased product that has had one single open beta event as healthy, considered fun by the vast majority of MMO gamers (have even the majority of MMO gamers even tried GW2 at this point ? I mean did the one beta event include even the vast majority of WoW players, let alone the millions of people that play other games ?), grief free, etc. can be described as anything but hyperbole for the simple fact that we do not know yet.
Again, I am looking forward to playing GW2. I bought the pre-purchase as soon as it was made available. I am a huge fan of ANet. Their ability to provide me with six thousand plus hours spent in GW1 over the course of going on seven years now, at the best entertainment price for return that I have ever experienced, has earned nothing but praise from me (except possibly for the Ranger pet thing in GW2).
But doing the equivalent of watching the first few minutes of a movie for which the edititng process is not yet complete and declaring it to be the best film ever made, revolutionary, enjoyable to the vast majoirty of movie goers, etc is odd in my opinion.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I would wait till the game is released before you herald it as the next coming of christ :
I'm sorry but where did you ever get this idea from? The OP never said anything like this.
If you think that any "revolutionary" game is the "next coming of christ," then well...christ is a fairly frequent visitor. Here are just a few divine appearances of our lord and savior that we have seen in the last few decades:
The last thing this game needs are posts touting it to be revolutionairy, evolutionairy and to be shifting paradigms..! Talking about definitions; the OP is the definition of HYPE! You cant blame the devs for hyping the game when fanbois do it all by them selves.
1. Of course the devs are going to hype their game. It is tyrannical of anyone who thinks they shouldn't (not pointing a finger at you). They make their living and support their families based on the money they make on their chosen profession; just like the blacksmith and the bread-maker. They were not put on this earth to give people a free game. They need to eat too. Besides, maybe they hype their game because they are proud of their work? I do the same every time we push a new release into production. I bet you would also be proud of something you worked on for 5+ years.
2. By complaining that the OP's words are positive, you are, in effect, taking an equally prejudiced opinion, except against the game rather than for it. Just as you are entitled to your opinion, he is entitled to his. Tolerate his opinion as you expect everyone to tolerate yours.
3.What is wrong with someone liking something you don't? See #2.
4. You should be happy every time someone releases a game. The more games released, the more, we the players, win. More games means more choices for you. You don't have to like a game, and if it's crap, then we will not give them our business and the market will take care of itself.
The problem with ArenaNet is that they are never great. They are good but good doesn't always make it good enough. I think it is more of an evoluion more than anything. People would leave Guild Wars 2 in a heartbeat if someone was to make a great mmo and more than likely Guild Wars 2 would be considered average at best. It isn't hard to be good when mostly everyone else is horrible at best when making mmos.
TL;DR Arenanet's revolutionary idea was to remove toxic gameplay from the MMORPG gamespace, utilizing ideas from many games including other MMORPG's, with the expectation of bringing out a game that is more fun, healthier, and more profitable than other games in the genre.
Short Answer, NO
Long Answer? I don't think GW2 is as "revoluntionary" as most would like to think it is. I played GW1 day 1 of release for about 3months and then quit because I "completed the game" pretty much. Rolled about 3 more toons, finished them out completely, got everything I wanted nodded my head and quit. A good story, but low retention rate for GW1.
GW2? I've seen MANY elements of GW2 in many other games, and they brought it together in a way these previous games couldn't. Does that mean GW2 is "Revolutionary"? Absolutely not.
-Similarly, does that make GW2 a "Bad Game"? Aboslutely not, but it doesn't make it the next "WoW Killer".
1) Your conclusion adds "WoW Killer" in for no apparent reason with no context.
2) I think "Revolutionary" as a term does not have to mean it is something completely original... especially considering NOTHING is original, everything is an iteration on something. For example, the iPhone took many things that were good about phones and PDAs, then they streamlined the OS by taking out what they thought was superflous to a touch screen device, polished the overall experience and BAM! The smartphone is now pushing well past the popularity of any other type of phone BECAUSE of the iPhone. I'm no apple fan, but its pretty safe to assume that the iPhone was revolutionary even though it really is a product that iterated on what was already there and distilled/streamlined the user experience.
I think it is possible to consider GW2 as revolutionary in the MMO themepark space, though it will take alot of time to see if that pans out because revolutionary also requires some affirmation from the masses actually choosing to enjoy it and demand its featureset in other games.
I'm not sure about the affirmations from the masses. Success is obviously a good thing, but because something fails does not mean it wasn't revolutionary. Sometimes the failure of revolutionary things just means it's 'ahead of it's time', i.e. people do not see, or understand the issues that are being changed as important. Case in point, how many /facepalms are happening in the MMO developers and publishing houses over the simple idea of an overflow server? How many from players themselves? I've read where the gorilla in the room is reacting and changing their server system to create a similar system in their own game. The use is slightly different, but the underlying technology is similar.
I would wait till the game is released before you herald it as the next coming of christ :
I'm sorry but where did you ever get this idea from? The OP never said anything like this.
If you think that any "revolutionary" game is the "next coming of christ," then well...christ is a fairly frequent visitor. Here are just a few divine appearances of our lord and savior that we have seen in the last few decades:
Mario Brothers
Super Mario Brothers
Zelda
Pong
Half Life
Halo
UO
EQ
WoW
Metroid
Portal
...
That christ guy sure has a busy schedule!
And you didn't even mention all the various taco shells he makes appearances on.
Comments
I've always like pvp in games but have never been one to go out and just gank other players simply because the game system allowed it. Maybe I am more of a RPer but I must have a reason before I will attack another player. Na I will not miss the "toxic" game play at all and I applaud Arenanet for their insight on limiting it. I also thing they have done a fabulous job of promoting community within GW2.
Agreed, many games seems fun the first few days or even weeks but gets boring fast.
But so far it do look great, I don't think I ever had so fun in a beta before. Ad frankly don't I care is a game is all the things OP mentioned, I just want a fun game that doesn't feel like I already played it for years after 1 hours of playing.
Well, birds evolved from the dinosaurs. That was evolution, but we too can say it was a "paradigm shift", because birds fly. No dinosaurs had that hability (pterosaurs were not dinosaurs, they were flyinfg reptiles but not flying dinosaurs)
I guess we are seeing something similar. GW2 have the same features other games have, but it is an evolution to that features. However, how all that evolved features work together is creating an new kind of animal, like a "flying dinosaur".
I would be more inclined to say, "it may be creating a new kind of animal."
For all we know, a year down the line, people will be forming teams, spamming requests for 'support specced' Elementalits or Guardians, rushing through the open world content, focusing on instanced dungeons, excluding (or mocking) people for their builds (this was not that uncommon in GW1 after all), and so on and so on.
I doubt it myself. I think (based on the small sample we have had a chance to actually test so far) that Anet has done a pretty solid job of tweaking MMO staples to avoid such.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
Thanks for the input. First phones were the best analogy, since it had the nuance I was looking for...it's flaw is the same as calling a game a paradigm shift...there are reasons and exceptions for everything in the consumer market...people's opinions shape their behavior and do matter. However, if a large % of people think in one direction, then companies will produce things in that direction. Coming up with a product that has benefits different from the norm, and moving the monolithic force that is consumer sentiment is the goal of every company, those that do this successfully once are rare, and I can only think of a couple of companies that were able to do it more than that.
Onto hyperbole. I'm sorry to disagree here, but any company that starts a project with a goal equivalent to world peace, (ok overstating here...but I'll follow your lead) and looks objectively within its market, creates a list of consumer complaints, and ELEGANTLY tries to fix the problems by designing a game system that removes, or severely limits, these problems..sorry that's a bunch of very bright game designers. Some might say that any design that does that is genius. Seriously, Arenanet could have given us exactly the same state of the MMO gamespace, and still kept out the majority of the problems, with a considerable decrease in the time of development...i.e. Open world GW1. They didn't.
As for those that wanted a detailed list of features that accomplished the removal of toxic gameplay, it wasn't my point to provide that. My point was that the fundamental change to this game isn't any particular system within it, it was Arenanet's use of all the systems to provide support to their goal of providing a fun, player friendly, grief free, time sink free, gamespace. (I'll also argue that because you do not have to feel like you are splitting your allegiances between RL and this game, it is a design that is healthier...both emotionally, as well as physically.)
+1
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
Ok...and I meant colloquialism to mean the popular usage of the term (slang or marketing jargon), not the strict definition...(which I provided, not only in definition form, but with proper examples of).
This is a beautiful post. It made me smile. I feel very lucky to have GW2. I'm even excited for the stress test on Monday, just so I can be logged in again. And if me enjoying a game makes me a "fangirl" then so be it. Like I care what trolls say anyway. They're just a bunch of jealous tools.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
From a Fanboy point of view, yes. from a real world point f view, NO.
Ahh I was waiting for this guy to post lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
for me is simpel like this.
-» GW2 is a evolution in:
- Dynamic Events, events that make diference on world, events that scale in dificulty according number of players, events that can trick other events, etc
- Combat system, a action game (no its not like skyrim with is full aim system but isnt tha aim that make games considered action games) that is fun and same time challenge. a action combat system that is very tactical, need to think what is your best options agaisnt enemy or you will die very often
- combos skills, put fire on ground and than send some arrows that became flammable is just awesome. combos skills are an invitation to cooperate with other players, is extremely fun and add moe tactics to the game
- underwater combat/exploration, have almost the same detail that land have. i didnt really like the underwater combat but the exploration is just amazing
- WvW
- sPvP, a place where competitive players can join after the 1s second enter in game. a place where the only thing matter is the skil of player not armour/weapon stats
- graphics / art style / world details, everything is beautiful and the details put on this game is incredible. i will not gonna spoiler but in LA have amazing things xD
- quests, or the lack of them, no more boring quests of" kill 10x of this" or "kill that and pick x item" etc
- no specific classes, no dps / tank / heal class (i dont know if any other game dont exist a tank that cant agro mobs so i put this as an evolution and not revolution feature)
-exploration, the game invite you to explore the all world. i was lvling up and i couldnt care less, i just want explore world. a game where i almost dont look to exp bar (they even could remove the bar and will be fine for me xD) say how amazing is the game
- do what you want, when you want and because you want, seem that is a minor feature but is a big thing...
-» GW2 is a revolution in:
- game philosophy, show me other game where the philosophy of game is help others in an active way. cant, dont exist. help other in GW2 is fun, give exp and make battles feel like...real battles. lol. this was the feature that make me say WOW, this game is really a revolution in this aspect. help others outside party? this cant work right? its work and is awesome xDD
Except they did this part in Guil Wars, not GW2.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I would like to see you do a thread on "exactly" what you didn't like.
I like you already...check the mans reffs
I agree with you on this point. It's not my point that a system of incremental change in something causes a paradigm shift. It's my opinion that by utilizing a model of constant improvement, Arenanet has happened upon a very basic truth of MMO's, and is trying to change the model.
The current state is creating unhappy players, because of issues inherent to the genre. Whether it's people suffering with issues in RL caused by the demands of playing these games, people disliking griefing, people disliking the amount of time required to play, etc. As I posted elsewhere, they could have provided a 'business safe' play experience by just making GW1 Open World.
They didn't, they looked at the problems, and decided to create an elegant solution to them. This solution, based on changing how players are treated by the game, MIGHT be large enough to make the current state of the genre untenable for a lot of players. That's a discussion for post release.
1) Your conclusion adds "WoW Killer" in for no apparent reason with no context.
2) I think "Revolutionary" as a term does not have to mean it is something completely original... especially considering NOTHING is original, everything is an iteration on something. For example, the iPhone took many things that were good about phones and PDAs, then they streamlined the OS by taking out what they thought was superflous to a touch screen device, polished the overall experience and BAM! The smartphone is now pushing well past the popularity of any other type of phone BECAUSE of the iPhone. I'm no apple fan, but its pretty safe to assume that the iPhone was revolutionary even though it really is a product that iterated on what was already there and distilled/streamlined the user experience.
I think it is possible to consider GW2 as revolutionary in the MMO themepark space, though it will take alot of time to see if that pans out because revolutionary also requires some affirmation from the masses actually choosing to enjoy it and demand its featureset in other games.
And they are moving this game design into the MMORPG model. A very different animal than GW1.
The last thing this game needs are posts touting it to be revolutionairy, evolutionairy and to be shifting paradigms..! Talking about definitions; the OP is the definition of HYPE! You cant blame the devs for hyping the game when fanbois do it all by them selves.
lol. must be blind to dont see the obvious changes that arenanet made in GW2 compared with others MMORPG. you can say that the game dont have a really one feature that is revolutionary, but you cant deny that have lot of features that are evolutions from other games.
if the game is hyped? yes, but if arenanet deliver what they promise who cares about the hype??? until now they deliver everything they say and this is a very rare thing to see in companys (in fact i never saw other game company really listen players and acepted suggestion...)
Again, I am looking forward to playing GW2. I bought the pre-purchase as soon as it was made available. I am a huge fan of ANet. Their ability to provide me with six thousand plus hours spent in GW1 over the course of going on seven years now, at the best entertainment price for return that I have ever experienced, has earned nothing but praise from me (except possibly for the Ranger pet thing in GW2).
But doing the equivalent of watching the first few minutes of a movie for which the edititng process is not yet complete and declaring it to be the best film ever made, revolutionary, enjoyable to the vast majoirty of movie goers, etc is odd in my opinion.
When all has been said and done, more will have been said than done.
I'm sorry but where did you ever get this idea from? The OP never said anything like this.
If you think that any "revolutionary" game is the "next coming of christ," then well...christ is a fairly frequent visitor. Here are just a few divine appearances of our lord and savior that we have seen in the last few decades:
Mario Brothers
Super Mario Brothers
Zelda
Pong
Half Life
Halo
UO
EQ
WoW
Metroid
Portal
...
That christ guy sure has a busy schedule!
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
1. Of course the devs are going to hype their game. It is tyrannical of anyone who thinks they shouldn't (not pointing a finger at you). They make their living and support their families based on the money they make on their chosen profession; just like the blacksmith and the bread-maker. They were not put on this earth to give people a free game. They need to eat too. Besides, maybe they hype their game because they are proud of their work? I do the same every time we push a new release into production. I bet you would also be proud of something you worked on for 5+ years.
2. By complaining that the OP's words are positive, you are, in effect, taking an equally prejudiced opinion, except against the game rather than for it. Just as you are entitled to your opinion, he is entitled to his. Tolerate his opinion as you expect everyone to tolerate yours.
3.What is wrong with someone liking something you don't? See #2.
4. You should be happy every time someone releases a game. The more games released, the more, we the players, win. More games means more choices for you. You don't have to like a game, and if it's crap, then we will not give them our business and the market will take care of itself.
The problem with ArenaNet is that they are never great. They are good but good doesn't always make it good enough. I think it is more of an evoluion more than anything. People would leave Guild Wars 2 in a heartbeat if someone was to make a great mmo and more than likely Guild Wars 2 would be considered average at best. It isn't hard to be good when mostly everyone else is horrible at best when making mmos.
Grim Dawn, the next great action rpg!
http://www.grimdawn.com/
I'm not sure about the affirmations from the masses. Success is obviously a good thing, but because something fails does not mean it wasn't revolutionary. Sometimes the failure of revolutionary things just means it's 'ahead of it's time', i.e. people do not see, or understand the issues that are being changed as important. Case in point, how many /facepalms are happening in the MMO developers and publishing houses over the simple idea of an overflow server? How many from players themselves? I've read where the gorilla in the room is reacting and changing their server system to create a similar system in their own game. The use is slightly different, but the underlying technology is similar.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/5393667/Cross-Realm_Zones_Coming_to_Beta-5_10_2012
And you didn't even mention all the various taco shells he makes appearances on.