Kind of what I was trying to get at with my posts as well. I want an MMORPG, not another game being called an MMORPG. If I want that other type of game, it's there. But, the game I'm looking for, a MMORPG, doesn't really seem to exist unless I want to go back and try to re live that game again. A game I left for a reason.
Things change. Industry progresses. We don't always get what we want.
And, you can't really call it evolution in my eyes. I don't see current ones as an evolution or next step. I see them as something without a soul/life to it. Which, just does not keep my attention. As I said earlier, convenience has removed an integral part of the game that I sorely miss. I miss the complexity. I miss the community. I miss the experience. I miss the journey.
That is your own interpretion. If you read WOW dev notes, you see the kind of thought they put into their system. Their philosophy may not what you like, but no soul .. that is such an empty cliche. If a game is fun for me, that is quite enough.
Convenience is good. Today's game has much more complex combat system than that before. For example, i play a wiz back in EQ when it released, there was no proc, no CD, no mana management, no talent tree .. saying the old games are more complex is just not true.
Miss the community? You can always make new friends. I had friends back in EQ too .. don't miss them a bit. Don't miss the "community" of bickering campers debating whose turn is next to kill the boss.
I'm not saying all those old games were perfect either. I left them for a reason. But, I want the evolution of that style of game, not what we got.
We got evoluation ... away from the style of old MMOs .. precisely because they are worse vidoe games than today's MMO.
If people are happy with current ones, more power to them. I wish I could be happy with them as well. But, I can't.
I am. Thank you. May you find happiness somewhere else. You know, MMOs are not the ONLY entertainment on earth.
The naming thing is just pointing out that they are not the same game or even an evolution. They are missing parts that are what made an MMORPG an MMORPG. Parts that are part of why we call them MMORPGs. It's in the bloody name.
Of course they are not the same game, that is what evolution means. Things change. Yeah, they are missing parts .. parts that many people do not want. Whether you call a MMO based on those parts is irrelevant. Language use does not depend on the judgment of one person.
If you can change how the whole industry call these games, more power to you.
Which episode of Next Generation is picture taken? Is it one of the episodes where Q makes an appearance?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
Things change. Industry progresses. We don't always get what we want.
That is your own interpretion. If you read WOW dev notes, you see the kind of thought they put into their system. Their philosophy may not what you like, but no soul .. that is such an empty cliche. If a game is fun for me, that is quite enough.
Convenience is good. Today's game has much more complex combat system than that before. For example, i play a wiz back in EQ when it released, there was no proc, no CD, no mana management, no talent tree .. saying the old games are more complex is just not true.
Miss the community? You can always make new friends. I had friends back in EQ too .. don't miss them a bit. Don't miss the "community" of bickering campers debating whose turn is next to kill the boss.
We got evoluation ... away from the style of old MMOs .. precisely because they are worse vidoe games than today's MMO.
I am. Thank you. May you find happiness somewhere else. You know, MMOs are not the ONLY entertainment on earth.
Of course they are not the same game, that is what evolution means. Things change. Yeah, they are missing parts .. parts that many people do not want. Whether you call a MMO based on those parts is irrelevant. Language use does not depend on the judgment of one person.
If you can change how the whole industry call these games, more power to you.
Indeed. We got change. It's not what I want. Am I wrong to want what I like?
We've been over this. I'm happy you have plenty of choices for games made in the way you like. Do you really not want me to have a choice as well? Because in that situation, I'll stick to not paying for them or playing them. That's just my personal choice.
WoW is currently all about removing choice and variance. That's not complex to me.
Is EQ the only older MMO you've played, because a lot of them had/still have everything you mentioned. As well as, more requirements to equip gear than just being the right level or the right class. Equipping anything in Anarchy Online was a mini puzzle that took time, planning, and often help from others. Newer games are completely removing attributes. They are reducing the size and choice of talent trees. They are reducing the number of skills you can use at one time. I would not call that being complex. You could argue the value of the choices of some of the older games, but you can't say newer games are more complex by any stretch of the imagination.
Friends List != Community It's not even close to the same thing. Also, I am still part of and keep in touch via the forums of a very old and very popular guild. I didn't just leave them behind when the game changed. Even if we aren't all playing the same game, we keep in touch. More than mere acquaintances.
Different game types than the ones you like being worse to everyone is a pretty self centered ideal.
I would not call new games an evolution. They are a fork in the development.
If the name of the genre is made up of words that describe the games within them, I'd say that's fairly specific.
This conversation is becoming pointless because you only care about what you want. Which, no one is trying to take away from you or belittle in the slightest. Everything doesn't have to be your way just as it doesn't have to be my way. Currently games are trending in the way you like. That's why I said "I want" instead of I demand or any such nonsense. I don't want to stop them from making the games you like. I'd just like to see some that I like as well. I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that. Good day.
For the most part this is how i feel. I dont want them to stop making games for him. Quite frankly i would hate it if they stopped making games for him. Otherwise we might have to inhabit the same game world and i dont think i could handle that.
Seeing him in the forums everyday yelling for LFG tools and shit would piss me off. I would like to have a game that i would enjoy playing. Untill such a time comes, my money will stay in the bank. No longer am i spending my money to games that are not up to my standered.
I hate the quote systems of these forums... My replies are in the last box for no apparent reason. At 2:21 AM on 8-13-12 the MMORPG Forums Enhanced Editor became self aware... God help us all...
Indeed. We got change. It's not what I want. Am I wrong to want what I like?
No of course not. We all want what we want .. you have no reason to want what I want.
We've been over this. I'm happy you have plenty of choices for games made in the way you like. Do you really not want me to have a choice as well? Because in that situation, I'll stick to not paying for them or playing them. That's just my personal choice.
No. Choices are all good. And i will stick to paying for what i like (or .. in many MMO .. playing for free).
WoW is currently all about removing choice and variance. That's not complex to me.
Hmm .. i don't know how you can say that with a straight face. Just COUNT the choices. In terms of raid, now we have LFR, normal and hard mode. That is 3 choices vs ONE back in the sunwell days. If that is not an INCREASE of choices, what is?
Same for LFD. It ADD the choice of leveling by dungeons, which previously is all done by quests.
Is EQ the only older MMO you've played, because a lot of them had/still have everything you mentioned. As well as, more requirements to equip gear than just being the right level or the right class. Equipping anything in Anarchy Online was a mini puzzle that took time, planning, and often help from others. Newer games are completely removing attributes. They are reducing the size and choice of talent trees. They are reducing the number of skills you can use at one time. I would not call that being complex. You could argue the value of the choices of some of the older games, but you can't say newer games are more complex by any stretch of the imagination.
Mini puzzle? Same for WOW. If you want to maximize your dps, you actually have to use a software TOOL to optimize choice of gear and gemming (RAWR). Well, you have to get specific of WHICH game you are talking about. EQ obviously is NOT as complex as modern games. Are you talking about AO? Or some other game.
Plus, just having a bigger talent tree is not more complex. If all the talents are "add 5% to dps", then you just pick the highest number. In fact, the old WOW talent trees are like that ... and you have cookie cutter builds. If you look at D3, it has MORE viable builds, and variations of what people pick, just because EACH choice matter more than "adding 5% to dps".
Friends List != Community It's not even close to the same thing. Also, I am still part of and keep in touch via the forums of a very old and very popular guild. I didn't just leave them behind when the game changed. Even if we aren't all playing the same game, we keep in touch. More than mere acquaintances.
"even if we aren't all playing the same game, we keep in touch" ... taht is exactly a friend list. You are not even playing the same game. The game does not matter. I keep in touch with some friends back in my wow guild too .. there is no magic. If there is software help (like friend list), good, if not, you can always do it via forums or other ways.
The point is .. the game is not important for your "community". People play different games but stay friends.
Different game types than the ones you like being worse to everyone is a pretty self centered ideal.
Not everyone. But do you deny my preference is mainstream?
I would not call new games an evolution. They are a fork in the development.
Call what you will .. those are just words. Genre changes .. that is the bottom line.
If the name of the genre is made up of words that describe the games within them, I'd say that's fairly specific.
No. Meaning of terms are not always literal, if they are used commonly enough. And even the specific word can have different interpretation. What is not "massive" about being able to trade with millions on the AH? Trading is "multiplayer" right? Who said "massively multiplayer" has to refer to battle, or groups .. i say it refers to AH.
This conversation is becoming pointless because you only care about what you want. Which, no one is trying to take away from you or belittle in the slightest. Everything doesn't have to be your way just as it doesn't have to be my way. Currently games are trending in the way you like. That's why I said "I want" instead of I demand or any such nonsense. I don't want to stop them from making the games you like. I'd just like to see some that I like as well. I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that. Good day.
Not belittle in the slightest? Are you reading the forums? heck, even the title thread is "genre is dead" .. yeah right, dead when so many are having fun?
This conversation is becoming pointless because you only care about what you want. Which, no one is trying to take away from you or belittle in the slightest. Everything doesn't have to be your way just as it doesn't have to be my way. Currently games are trending in the way you like. That's why I said "I want" instead of I demand or any such nonsense. I don't want to stop them from making the games you like. I'd just like to see some that I like as well. I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that. Good day.
Not belittle in the slightest? Are you reading the forums? heck, even the title thread is "genre is dead" .. yeah right, dead when so many are having fun?
Maybe what is at the heart of your disagreement is this: What paroxysm calls a MMO and what you nariusseldon call a MMO are realy two different games. Similar, but not the same.
To some of us the MMO genre *IS* dead because our preferred forms of MMO are no longer being made anymore ... while your preferred form of MMO is now being made. To you the MMO genre is alive and well. Things do change for sure.
One day you too will understand what it feels like to be "obsolete".
This conversation is becoming pointless because you only care about what you want. Which, no one is trying to take away from you or belittle in the slightest. Everything doesn't have to be your way just as it doesn't have to be my way. Currently games are trending in the way you like. That's why I said "I want" instead of I demand or any such nonsense. I don't want to stop them from making the games you like. I'd just like to see some that I like as well. I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that. Good day.
Not belittle in the slightest? Are you reading the forums? heck, even the title thread is "genre is dead" .. yeah right, dead when so many are having fun?
Maybe what is at the heart of your disagreement is this: What paroxysm calls a MMO and what you nariusseldon call a MMO are realy two different games. Similar, but not the same.
To some of us the MMO genre *IS* dead because our preferred forms of MMO are no longer being made anymore ... while your preferred form of MMO is now being made. To you the MMO genre is alive and well. Things do change for sure.
One day you too will understand what it feels like to be "obsolete".
Oh .. nothing lasts forever. I was listening to the radio shows of the golden age (40s-50s) and they don't produce radio shows like that anymore.
But my point is that many here have a lot of hate and venom against modern, current MMOs, and i think they are bitter and misguided. In fact, their only past time becomes belittling those who like newer MMOs, and rant on how bad the time is. Well, i want to point out that it is not bad times for everyone. In fact, the time has IMPROVED for some.
And i doubt *I* will ever be obsolete, since i never just like/use one type of entertainment. Like i said in other posts, if they don't make MMOs i like anymore, i will just do somethign else. It is not like there is a lack of entertainment. Heck, i may even switch gear just to get some variety.
Indeed. We got change. It's not what I want. Am I wrong to want what I like?
No of course not. We all want what we want .. you have no reason to want what I want.
We've been over this. I'm happy you have plenty of choices for games made in the way you like. Do you really not want me to have a choice as well? Because in that situation, I'll stick to not paying for them or playing them. That's just my personal choice.
No. Choices are all good. And i will stick to paying for what i like (or .. in many MMO .. playing for free).
WoW is currently all about removing choice and variance. That's not complex to me.
Hmm .. i don't know how you can say that with a straight face. Just COUNT the choices. In terms of raid, now we have LFR, normal and hard mode. That is 3 choices vs ONE back in the sunwell days. If that is not an INCREASE of choices, what is?
Same for LFD. It ADD the choice of leveling by dungeons, which previously is all done by quests.
Is EQ the only older MMO you've played, because a lot of them had/still have everything you mentioned. As well as, more requirements to equip gear than just being the right level or the right class. Equipping anything in Anarchy Online was a mini puzzle that took time, planning, and often help from others. Newer games are completely removing attributes. They are reducing the size and choice of talent trees. They are reducing the number of skills you can use at one time. I would not call that being complex. You could argue the value of the choices of some of the older games, but you can't say newer games are more complex by any stretch of the imagination.
Mini puzzle? Same for WOW. If you want to maximize your dps, you actually have to use a software TOOL to optimize choice of gear and gemming (RAWR). Well, you have to get specific of WHICH game you are talking about. EQ obviously is NOT as complex as modern games. Are you talking about AO? Or some other game.
Plus, just having a bigger talent tree is not more complex. If all the talents are "add 5% to dps", then you just pick the highest number. In fact, the old WOW talent trees are like that ... and you have cookie cutter builds. If you look at D3, it has MORE viable builds, and variations of what people pick, just because EACH choice matter more than "adding 5% to dps".
Friends List != Community It's not even close to the same thing. Also, I am still part of and keep in touch via the forums of a very old and very popular guild. I didn't just leave them behind when the game changed. Even if we aren't all playing the same game, we keep in touch. More than mere acquaintances.
"even if we aren't all playing the same game, we keep in touch" ... taht is exactly a friend list. You are not even playing the same game. The game does not matter. I keep in touch with some friends back in my wow guild too .. there is no magic. If there is software help (like friend list), good, if not, you can always do it via forums or other ways.
The point is .. the game is not important for your "community". People play different games but stay friends.
Different game types than the ones you like being worse to everyone is a pretty self centered ideal.
Not everyone. But do you deny my preference is mainstream?
I would not call new games an evolution. They are a fork in the development.
Call what you will .. those are just words. Genre changes .. that is the bottom line.
If the name of the genre is made up of words that describe the games within them, I'd say that's fairly specific.
No. Meaning of terms are not always literal, if they are used commonly enough. And even the specific word can have different interpretation. What is not "massive" about being able to trade with millions on the AH? Trading is "multiplayer" right? Who said "massively multiplayer" has to refer to battle, or groups .. i say it refers to AH.
This conversation is becoming pointless because you only care about what you want. Which, no one is trying to take away from you or belittle in the slightest. Everything doesn't have to be your way just as it doesn't have to be my way. Currently games are trending in the way you like. That's why I said "I want" instead of I demand or any such nonsense. I don't want to stop them from making the games you like. I'd just like to see some that I like as well. I'm sorry you can't seem to understand that. Good day.
Not belittle in the slightest? Are you reading the forums? heck, even the title thread is "genre is dead" .. yeah right, dead when so many are having fun?
LFR/LFG/LFD do not make any game more complex. They are tools to make access to the same dungeons/raids/etc faster and easier. There is no complexity or level of depth added for the user. Those are tools of convenience. So is RAWR. You plug in the numbers and tells you what to enchant/stack. There is still just level or class requirements to meet there. You could always level in dungeons by running them over and over. LFD just made the grouping part streamlined. To the talent tree thing, I said some of the value of the earlier choices could be debated, but there were still more choices. With the repeated pruning, entire builds have been clipped. You could argue FOTM builds, but not every FOTM suits the playstyle of every person. Not every person performs the same with every build. Those builds are theortical best builds. And sometimes, an off the wall build is what is needed to counter those best builds. Go look at the builds of Shadowbane if you want to see choice. Granted the game had lots of issues, but it had some brilliant ideas as well. The normal vs hardmode thing is pretty meh to me. I did them. It's the same raid with some added restrictions or more health/damage. It's not mind blowing to me. Enrage timers are still just gear checks too.
A single guild does not make a game community either. I only explained my guild situation to answer your thought on just getting friends. It is not the same thing.
I don't care what is or is not main stream. I don't follow fads and trends almost at all. I like what I like. I dislike what I dislike. Everyone is entitled to do the same and I don't discourage that.
Just words. You didn't get what i said at all in any of that, so I won't bother to restate it yet again.
I am not the OP, but I agree with them on the basis of what I consider an MMORPG to be. No where does that say anything about you not getting the game you want.
And on that note, I'm done with our little 1 on 1 as it is not progressing and I'm tired of restating because you are not understanding what I'm saying. The sad nature of text.
LFR/LFG/LFD do not make any game more complex. They are tools to make access to the same dungeons/raids/etc faster and easier. There is no complexity or level of depth added for the user. Those are tools of convenience. So is RAWR. You plug in the numbers and tells you what to enchant/stack. There is still just level or class requirements to meet there. You could always level in dungeons by running them over and over. LFD just made the grouping part streamlined. To the talent tree thing, I said some of the value of the earlier choices could be debated, but there were still more choices. With the repeated pruning, entire builds have been clipped. You could argue FOTM builds, but not every FOTM suits the playstyle of every person. Not every person performs the same with every build. Those builds are theortical best builds. And sometimes, an off the wall build is what is needed to counter those best builds. Go look at the builds of Shadowbane if you want to see choice. Granted the game had lots of issues, but it had some brilliant ideas as well. The normal vs hardmode thing is pretty meh to me. I did them. It's the same raid with some added restrictions or more health/damage. It's not mind blowing to me. Enrage timers are still just gear checks too.
You are being inconsistent. Clear LFD/LFR add choices (you can count them), and on the other hand, you use the "number of choice" as complexity in talent tree. You can't have it both ways.
And look at the evidence. In WOW, all mages are either fire or arcane and fire outnumber arcane 10 to 1 whenever fire has the highest theoretical DPS.
Look at D3, much more variety of build of the wiz class. There are arcane orb wiz, critical mass wiz, archon beam wiz, blizz/orb kiting wiz .... pretty conclusive evidence that more number crunching != better depth.
A single guild does not make a game community either. I only explained my guild situation to answer your thought on just getting friends. It is not the same thing.
A true "game world" comunity is a myth. People move in and out of games all the time. And i don't see the benefit of a server community when i can play with friends in a friend list. People are people.
I don't care what is or is not main stream. I don't follow fads and trends almost at all. I like what I like. I dislike what I dislike. Everyone is entitled to do the same and I don't discourage that.
Sure you don't care. But at least don't you want to be informed? By the amount you type, you want to discuss. No one doubt what you like.
Just words. You didn't get what i said at all in any of that, so I won't bother to restate it yet again.
Maybe it's our fault as young parents. We spent too much time playing MMO's which offered us such immersive worlds that we neglected to instill the proper values into our children. Now the very thought of actually having to socialize in an MMO is absurd to them. I apologize to the younger generation of MMO players. It wasn't supposed to be this way. We failed you, and now we have to live with the obnoxious self centered litttle morons we have created.
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
Originally posted by Amaranthar Originally posted by dave6660Originally posted by kantseeme
Which episode of Next Generation is picture taken? Is it one of the episodes where Q makes an appearance?That's the one where EA bought the rights to the Holodeck.
LFR/LFG/LFD do not make any game more complex. They are tools to make access to the same dungeons/raids/etc faster and easier. There is no complexity or level of depth added for the user. Those are tools of convenience. So is RAWR. You plug in the numbers and tells you what to enchant/stack. There is still just level or class requirements to meet there. You could always level in dungeons by running them over and over. LFD just made the grouping part streamlined. To the talent tree thing, I said some of the value of the earlier choices could be debated, but there were still more choices. With the repeated pruning, entire builds have been clipped. You could argue FOTM builds, but not every FOTM suits the playstyle of every person. Not every person performs the same with every build. Those builds are theortical best builds. And sometimes, an off the wall build is what is needed to counter those best builds. Go look at the builds of Shadowbane if you want to see choice. Granted the game had lots of issues, but it had some brilliant ideas as well. The normal vs hardmode thing is pretty meh to me. I did them. It's the same raid with some added restrictions or more health/damage. It's not mind blowing to me. Enrage timers are still just gear checks too.
You are being inconsistent. Clear LFD/LFR add choices (you can count them), and on the other hand, you use the "number of choice" as complexity in talent tree. You can't have it both ways.
And look at the evidence. In WOW, all mages are either fire or arcane and fire outnumber arcane 10 to 1 whenever fire has the highest theoretical DPS.
Look at D3, much more variety of build of the wiz class. There are arcane orb wiz, critical mass wiz, archon beam wiz, blizz/orb kiting wiz .... pretty conclusive evidence that more number crunching != better depth.
Nothing inconsistent about his post. You just fail to see reality. LFG/LFR tools make things "easier" not more "complex". Taking away options for groups to meet up, get buffs, Items for runs, discuss strats, taking routes to loc to loc etc, etc. What your "option" does infact reduce complexity and choices so its you who is inconsistent with your posts.
Glad you were the one that brought up WoW. With min/maxers finding master builds for classes reduces choices. These Talent Tree builds are some of the worst ideas ever. Devs got lazy and insted of comming up with lots of different classes, they give you one with 4 ways to build it. knowing that 3 of the 4 are goin to be garbage. You waid it yourself 9 out of 10 mages in WoW are fire mages. Wheres the choices in that.
I thought we all agreed D3 wasent a MMO. Cant use classes from a NON MMO to back your claim that modern MMOs have better depth.
A single guild does not make a game community either. I only explained my guild situation to answer your thought on just getting friends. It is not the same thing.
A true "game world" comunity is a myth. People move in and out of games all the time. And i don't see the benefit of a server community when i can play with friends in a friend list. People are people.
People move in and out of games because theres no substance anymore to MMOs to retain the player base. Your a reason for that.
I don't care what is or is not main stream. I don't follow fads and trends almost at all. I like what I like. I dislike what I dislike. Everyone is entitled to do the same and I don't discourage that.
Sure you don't care. But at least don't you want to be informed? By the amount you type, you want to discuss. No one doubt what you like.
Informed by you? No offence but you shouldent be "informing" anyone on this topic.
Just words. You didn't get what i said at all in any of that, so I won't bother to restate it yet again.
Originally posted by TruthXHurts Maybe it's our fault as young parents. We spent too much time playing MMO's which offered us such immersive worlds that we neglected to instill the proper values into our children. Now the very thought of actually having to socialize in an MMO is absurd to them. I apologize to the younger generation of MMO players. It wasn't supposed to be this way. We failed you, and now we have to live with the obnoxious self centered litttle morons we have created.
Nothing inconsistent about his post. You just fail to see reality. LFG/LFR tools make things "easier" not more "complex". Taking away options for groups to meet up, get buffs, Items for runs, discuss strats, taking routes to loc to loc etc, etc. What your "option" does infact reduce complexity and choices so its you who is inconsistent with your posts.
"meet up" ... why .. that is not complexity.
"get buffs" .. you still get buffs in the dungeon.
"discuss strategy" .. that is what party chat and vent is for. You do not need to be in the same part of the game world to do so.
"taking routes" ... walking from point A to B add nothing to dungeon crawling gameplay, and no complexity.
And how can you say in a straight face that two choices (use LFD, and NOT using it) are fewer than ONE (no LFD to use)?
Glad you were the one that brought up WoW. With min/maxers finding master builds for classes reduces choices. These Talent Tree builds are some of the worst ideas ever. Devs got lazy and insted of comming up with lots of different classes, they give you one with 4 ways to build it. knowing that 3 of the 4 are goin to be garbage. You waid it yourself 9 out of 10 mages in WoW are fire mages. Wheres the choices in that.
The new talent system fixed that. No more number crunching talent tree. EACH choice does a different mechanic (similar to D3 skill system).
I thought we all agreed D3 wasent a MMO. Cant use classes from a NON MMO to back your claim that modern MMOs have better depth.
They are the same kind of game with similar playstyle. You click to get into a group, and run a dungeon co-oping with small number of players. D3 and similar style co-op games (like SD gundam .. also only instanced missions, no world) are listed and discussed on this site.
People move in and out of games because theres no substance anymore to MMOs to retain the player base. Your a reason for that.
Does not matter what is the reason. Isn't it still TRUE that people move in and out of games? Nothing last forever. I do not apologize the fact that i like to play MORE THAN ONE game. And there is no reason why people should maintain a community OUTSIDE of ANY game and play together in MULTIPLE games.
Are you saying friends should not play multiple games together?
Informed by you? No offence but you shouldent be "informing" anyone on this topic.
I think you need some "informing" outside of your closed minded obsessive pursuit of virtual worlds and open your mind to other kind of MMOs.
Nothing inconsistent about his post. You just fail to see reality. LFG/LFR tools make things "easier" not more "complex". Taking away options for groups to meet up, get buffs, Items for runs, discuss strats, taking routes to loc to loc etc, etc. What your "option" does infact reduce complexity and choices so its you who is inconsistent with your posts.
"meet up" ... why .. that is not complexity.
"get buffs" .. you still get buffs in the dungeon.
"discuss strategy" .. that is what party chat and vent is for. You do not need to be in the same part of the game world to do so.
"taking routes" ... walking from point A to B add nothing to dungeon crawling gameplay, and no complexity.
And how can you say in a straight face that two choices (use LFD, and NOT using it) are fewer than ONE (no LFD to use)?
Glad you were the one that brought up WoW. With min/maxers finding master builds for classes reduces choices. These Talent Tree builds are some of the worst ideas ever. Devs got lazy and insted of comming up with lots of different classes, they give you one with 4 ways to build it. knowing that 3 of the 4 are goin to be garbage. You waid it yourself 9 out of 10 mages in WoW are fire mages. Wheres the choices in that.
The new talent system fixed that. No more number crunching talent tree. EACH choice does a different mechanic (similar to D3 skill system).
I thought we all agreed D3 wasent a MMO. Cant use classes from a NON MMO to back your claim that modern MMOs have better depth.
They are the same kind of game with similar playstyle. You click to get into a group, and run a dungeon co-oping with small number of players. D3 and similar style co-op games (like SD gundam .. also only instanced missions, no world) are listed and discussed on this site.
People move in and out of games because theres no substance anymore to MMOs to retain the player base. Your a reason for that.
Does not matter what is the reason. Isn't it still TRUE that people move in and out of games? Nothing last forever. I do not apologize the fact that i like to play MORE THAN ONE game. And there is no reason why people should maintain a community OUTSIDE of ANY game and play together in MULTIPLE games.
Are you saying friends should not play multiple games together?
Informed by you? No offence but you shouldent be "informing" anyone on this topic.
I think you need some "informing" outside of your closed minded obsessive pursuit of virtual worlds and open your mind to other kind of MMOs.
[mod edit] i would just like to point out one thing and touch on that.
"Does not matter what is the reason"
It very much DOES matter. Game Cos WANT to know why people are leaving games in DROVES weeks, months after release. And i dont give a shit how many games you play at one time. But your play style is NOT what makes a MMO. If your not man enough to admit that then i dont know what to tell you.
Oh and last but not least. Your "And there is no reason why people should maintain community OUTSIDE of ANY game and play together in MULTIPLE games" comment.
I want you to read this sentence out loud till you understand what you wrote.
There is a reason why the LFG tool is called (i try a translation here) "Jackass Jeopardy".
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
Nothing inconsistent about his post. You just fail to see reality. LFG/LFR tools make things "easier" not more "complex". Taking away options for groups to meet up, get buffs, Items for runs, discuss strats, taking routes to loc to loc etc, etc. What your "option" does infact reduce complexity and choices so its you who is inconsistent with your posts.
"meet up" ... why .. that is not complexity.
"get buffs" .. you still get buffs in the dungeon.
"discuss strategy" .. that is what party chat and vent is for. You do not need to be in the same part of the game world to do so.
"taking routes" ... walking from point A to B add nothing to dungeon crawling gameplay, and no complexity.
And how can you say in a straight face that two choices (use LFD, and NOT using it) are fewer than ONE (no LFD to use)?
Glad you were the one that brought up WoW. With min/maxers finding master builds for classes reduces choices. These Talent Tree builds are some of the worst ideas ever. Devs got lazy and insted of comming up with lots of different classes, they give you one with 4 ways to build it. knowing that 3 of the 4 are goin to be garbage. You waid it yourself 9 out of 10 mages in WoW are fire mages. Wheres the choices in that.
The new talent system fixed that. No more number crunching talent tree. EACH choice does a different mechanic (similar to D3 skill system).
I thought we all agreed D3 wasent a MMO. Cant use classes from a NON MMO to back your claim that modern MMOs have better depth.
They are the same kind of game with similar playstyle. You click to get into a group, and run a dungeon co-oping with small number of players. D3 and similar style co-op games (like SD gundam .. also only instanced missions, no world) are listed and discussed on this site.
People move in and out of games because theres no substance anymore to MMOs to retain the player base. Your a reason for that.
Does not matter what is the reason. Isn't it still TRUE that people move in and out of games? Nothing last forever. I do not apologize the fact that i like to play MORE THAN ONE game. And there is no reason why people should maintain a community OUTSIDE of ANY game and play together in MULTIPLE games.
Are you saying friends should not play multiple games together?
Informed by you? No offence but you shouldent be "informing" anyone on this topic.
I think you need some "informing" outside of your closed minded obsessive pursuit of virtual worlds and open your mind to other kind of MMOs.
I did not want to come back to this thread as it seems to have devolved so horribly. But, I feel some things are needed. I'll try to make it short.
What depth or complexity is added by the LFR/LFD system that was not there before?
To the WoW talent trees, they aren't even choices anymore. If you pick a type of play(dps/tank/heal/pvp) there really is no choice to be made. It presents you with three options. Each one suited for a certain playstyle. You choose the one for your playstyle. The only ones that have even the slightest bit of real choice are the classes with three dps trees. So no, they did not add any complexity or depth. You said yourself, they took out the number crunching. There's not even comparisons really now. You take the one for your build. For most of those "choices" it's pointless to even ask the question. They should just ask what role you want to perform and give you the talents you'll take anyways. It's just an illusion of choice.
Whether or not you thought they had depth before is debateable, but they have less now than they did before. It went from small amount of choice to almost no choice. That is not depth.
I never said to maintain a community outside a game. I said the community of the game is not there because of the way it's built to avoid too much interaction. Usually via world design, self reliance of classes, and instancing of everything that you can warp straight to. Don't twist words.
And i doubt *I* will ever be obsolete, since i never just like/use one type of entertainment. Like i said in other posts, if they don't make MMOs i like anymore, i will just do somethign else. It is not like there is a lack of entertainment. Heck, i may even switch gear just to get some variety.
The very idea of what is going to keep you young is an idea specific to your generation which will be obsolete in time. The problem is any given unique approach to staying young is generally derived from the worldview that shapes and defines one's generation, and unfortunately this worldview eventually itself becomes obsolete with time, which means the very foundation for how one plans to stay young also becomes obsolete, thus making it impossible to truly stay young . . . there is no way to avoid this dilemma.
The idea you are expressing is the idea that the key to not being obsolete lies in having a large variety of interests. That is consistent with the idea of the casual gamer who skips from game to game. Of course, this is a very common view among the current generation, but the next generation may actually hold that it is superior and more cutting edge to be someone completely devoted to, and passionate about, one thing. My gut feeling is that the next generation of gamers is actually going to be MORE like the UO generation than like the WoW generation, but of course uniquely different from either previous generations.
100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.
If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.
MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.
Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.
And i doubt *I* will ever be obsolete, since i never just like/use one type of entertainment. Like i said in other posts, if they don't make MMOs i like anymore, i will just do somethign else. It is not like there is a lack of entertainment. Heck, i may even switch gear just to get some variety.
The very idea of what is going to keep you young is an idea specific to your generation which will be obsolete in time. The problem is any given unique approach to staying young is generally derived from the worldview that shapes and defines one's generation, and unfortunately this worldview eventually itself becomes obsolete with time, which means the very foundation for how one plans to stay young also becomes obsolete, thus making it impossible to truly stay young . . . there is no way to avoid this dilemma.
The idea you are expressing is the idea that the key to not being obsolete lies in having a large variety of interests. That is consistent with the idea of the casual gamer who skips from game to game. Of course, this is a very common view among the current generation, but the next generation may actually hold that it is superior and more cutting edge to be someone completely devoted to, and passionate about, one thing. My gut feeling is that the next generation of gamers is actually going to be MORE like the UO generation than like the WoW generation, but of course uniquely different from either previous generations.
And you are totally off base. My kids are teenagers and my first computer is an APPLE II+ where i played Ultima 3 (my first ultima) on.
But the point is that despite whatever generation you want to classify people, for ME, there are plenty of entertainment. In fact, the number of choices are INCREASING every day. I found good TV shows, just found a new sci-fi author i like, good computer games ...
There is utterly no reason to be bitter and depressed if ONE genre of games does not pan out the way i want. MMOs are great now for me .. and i don't expect it to last forever. Just like i had fun with Ultima 3-6 .. but the series died around 8 (definitely 9).
Comments
See my previous post about my surprise face.
Which episode of Next Generation is picture taken? Is it one of the episodes where Q makes an appearance?
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
For the most part this is how i feel. I dont want them to stop making games for him. Quite frankly i would hate it if they stopped making games for him. Otherwise we might have to inhabit the same game world and i dont think i could handle that.
Seeing him in the forums everyday yelling for LFG tools and shit would piss me off. I would like to have a game that i would enjoy playing. Untill such a time comes, my money will stay in the bank. No longer am i spending my money to games that are not up to my standered.
This made me lol
ROFL you would think that though wouldent you. I have no idea what ep its from though.
Maybe what is at the heart of your disagreement is this: What paroxysm calls a MMO and what you nariusseldon call a MMO are realy two different games. Similar, but not the same.
To some of us the MMO genre *IS* dead because our preferred forms of MMO are no longer being made anymore ... while your preferred form of MMO is now being made. To you the MMO genre is alive and well. Things do change for sure.
One day you too will understand what it feels like to be "obsolete".
Oh .. nothing lasts forever. I was listening to the radio shows of the golden age (40s-50s) and they don't produce radio shows like that anymore.
But my point is that many here have a lot of hate and venom against modern, current MMOs, and i think they are bitter and misguided. In fact, their only past time becomes belittling those who like newer MMOs, and rant on how bad the time is. Well, i want to point out that it is not bad times for everyone. In fact, the time has IMPROVED for some.
And i doubt *I* will ever be obsolete, since i never just like/use one type of entertainment. Like i said in other posts, if they don't make MMOs i like anymore, i will just do somethign else. It is not like there is a lack of entertainment. Heck, i may even switch gear just to get some variety.
LFR/LFG/LFD do not make any game more complex. They are tools to make access to the same dungeons/raids/etc faster and easier. There is no complexity or level of depth added for the user. Those are tools of convenience. So is RAWR. You plug in the numbers and tells you what to enchant/stack. There is still just level or class requirements to meet there. You could always level in dungeons by running them over and over. LFD just made the grouping part streamlined. To the talent tree thing, I said some of the value of the earlier choices could be debated, but there were still more choices. With the repeated pruning, entire builds have been clipped. You could argue FOTM builds, but not every FOTM suits the playstyle of every person. Not every person performs the same with every build. Those builds are theortical best builds. And sometimes, an off the wall build is what is needed to counter those best builds. Go look at the builds of Shadowbane if you want to see choice. Granted the game had lots of issues, but it had some brilliant ideas as well. The normal vs hardmode thing is pretty meh to me. I did them. It's the same raid with some added restrictions or more health/damage. It's not mind blowing to me. Enrage timers are still just gear checks too.
A single guild does not make a game community either. I only explained my guild situation to answer your thought on just getting friends. It is not the same thing.
I don't care what is or is not main stream. I don't follow fads and trends almost at all. I like what I like. I dislike what I dislike. Everyone is entitled to do the same and I don't discourage that.
Just words. You didn't get what i said at all in any of that, so I won't bother to restate it yet again.
I am not the OP, but I agree with them on the basis of what I consider an MMORPG to be. No where does that say anything about you not getting the game you want.
And on that note, I'm done with our little 1 on 1 as it is not progressing and I'm tired of restating because you are not understanding what I'm saying. The sad nature of text.
That's the one where EA bought the rights to the Holodeck.
Once upon a time....
Yup, OP has it right pretty much. Like worn out, old chewing gum. No flavor.
(Akiraosc)
"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"
That's the one where EA bought the rights to the Holodeck.
ok, I lol'd pretty good at that
HAHA! Thats pertty funny there
Nothing inconsistent about his post. You just fail to see reality. LFG/LFR tools make things "easier" not more "complex". Taking away options for groups to meet up, get buffs, Items for runs, discuss strats, taking routes to loc to loc etc, etc. What your "option" does infact reduce complexity and choices so its you who is inconsistent with your posts.
Glad you were the one that brought up WoW. With min/maxers finding master builds for classes reduces choices. These Talent Tree builds are some of the worst ideas ever. Devs got lazy and insted of comming up with lots of different classes, they give you one with 4 ways to build it. knowing that 3 of the 4 are goin to be garbage. You waid it yourself 9 out of 10 mages in WoW are fire mages. Wheres the choices in that.
I thought we all agreed D3 wasent a MMO. Cant use classes from a NON MMO to back your claim that modern MMOs have better depth.
People move in and out of games because theres no substance anymore to MMOs to retain the player base. Your a reason for that.
Informed by you? No offence but you shouldent be "informing" anyone on this topic.
Good bye sounds just fine.
That was pretty funny.
+1
[mod edit] i would just like to point out one thing and touch on that.
"Does not matter what is the reason"
It very much DOES matter. Game Cos WANT to know why people are leaving games in DROVES weeks, months after release. And i dont give a shit how many games you play at one time. But your play style is NOT what makes a MMO. If your not man enough to admit that then i dont know what to tell you.
Oh and last but not least. Your "And there is no reason why people should maintain community OUTSIDE of ANY game and play together in MULTIPLE games" comment.
I want you to read this sentence out loud till you understand what you wrote.
I wish you well in all your gaming indevors.
There is a reason why the LFG tool is called (i try a translation here) "Jackass Jeopardy".
"Torquemada... do not implore him for compassion. Torquemada... do not beg him for forgiveness. Torquemada... do not ask him for mercy. Let's face it, you can't Torquemada anything!"
MWO Music Video - What does the Mech say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF6HYNqCDLI
Johnny Cash - The Man Comes Around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0x2iwK0BKM
I did not want to come back to this thread as it seems to have devolved so horribly. But, I feel some things are needed. I'll try to make it short.
What depth or complexity is added by the LFR/LFD system that was not there before?
To the WoW talent trees, they aren't even choices anymore. If you pick a type of play(dps/tank/heal/pvp) there really is no choice to be made. It presents you with three options. Each one suited for a certain playstyle. You choose the one for your playstyle. The only ones that have even the slightest bit of real choice are the classes with three dps trees. So no, they did not add any complexity or depth. You said yourself, they took out the number crunching. There's not even comparisons really now. You take the one for your build. For most of those "choices" it's pointless to even ask the question. They should just ask what role you want to perform and give you the talents you'll take anyways. It's just an illusion of choice.
Whether or not you thought they had depth before is debateable, but they have less now than they did before. It went from small amount of choice to almost no choice. That is not depth.
I never said to maintain a community outside a game. I said the community of the game is not there because of the way it's built to avoid too much interaction. Usually via world design, self reliance of classes, and instancing of everything that you can warp straight to. Don't twist words.
The very idea of what is going to keep you young is an idea specific to your generation which will be obsolete in time. The problem is any given unique approach to staying young is generally derived from the worldview that shapes and defines one's generation, and unfortunately this worldview eventually itself becomes obsolete with time, which means the very foundation for how one plans to stay young also becomes obsolete, thus making it impossible to truly stay young . . . there is no way to avoid this dilemma.
The idea you are expressing is the idea that the key to not being obsolete lies in having a large variety of interests. That is consistent with the idea of the casual gamer who skips from game to game. Of course, this is a very common view among the current generation, but the next generation may actually hold that it is superior and more cutting edge to be someone completely devoted to, and passionate about, one thing. My gut feeling is that the next generation of gamers is actually going to be MORE like the UO generation than like the WoW generation, but of course uniquely different from either previous generations.
lol
And you are totally off base. My kids are teenagers and my first computer is an APPLE II+ where i played Ultima 3 (my first ultima) on.
But the point is that despite whatever generation you want to classify people, for ME, there are plenty of entertainment. In fact, the number of choices are INCREASING every day. I found good TV shows, just found a new sci-fi author i like, good computer games ...
There is utterly no reason to be bitter and depressed if ONE genre of games does not pan out the way i want. MMOs are great now for me .. and i don't expect it to last forever. Just like i had fun with Ultima 3-6 .. but the series died around 8 (definitely 9).