Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old. And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.
Sorry, no offence intended, but what i read sounded more like "We need more carrot on a stick. Why? Because it makes me big and strong!! Yaay!!" to me : Try to look a situation from a bit different angle?
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2 Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
I have no problem with how eve does this though, specialise early be good at one thing, vets just have more options and can be good at several things
Or daoc, soft and hard stat caps, 99% good crafted gear etc..
It's just the wow model that leads to suck pvp. It's a socialist model that allows a poopsocking girlfriendless doleite to feel special about winning virtually because they have lots of spare time due to failing in real life.
I can once again edit posts. There is gear progression. There is no gear treadmill. MEaning the top end gear does not change every major content patch or whatever schedule other games have.
Exotic Gear is the max level gear in terms of stats (equal to legendaries)
PvE gear is designed by breaking up the stats of the PvP 798/569/569 amulet and putting it back on gear
Exotic gear at level 80 has 13% better stats than a Rare 80 item
All level 80 exotic gear will have the same "total attribute" points but different gear will have different attribute allocations e.g one exotic glove is 34/24/24 in power/precision/vitality while another is 34/24/24 in toughness/vitality/healing
The four confirmed ways of obtaining exotics are: dungeon tokens, WvW, crafting and the mystic forge. There may be other ways.
There are at least 8 crafted exotic sets that require globs of ectoplasm.
Exotic gear can take a long time to get (44+ dungeon runs or 75+ WvW hours) and this is presumably to offer more desirable stats and skins compared to the crafted sets.
I personally don't know how I will be. I'm someone who needs a carrot on a stick.
I played Wow a lot and I loved to do achievements run, or transmog runs BUT I always felt like i was loosing my time doing that, because I could go grind for gear that would actually give me better stats.
In guild wars 2 I will be able to do those things without having to worry about my friends getting stronger. But I don't know yet if that formulae will keep me addicted to the game enough for me to play for more than a month.
God I'm waiting for the game so bad, but I do hope that i'll fall in love
Originally posted by snapfusion Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old. And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.
Gear Progression Is neither good nor bad. It's method of game play. If done properly, it can be fun. For the most part, I don't recall these arguments against gear progression being all that common back in the 1st 2 expansions in WoW, In fact, TBC progression was quite reasonable. I had characters that I raided with and did quite well, that still had some blues in a few slots. And my Hunter had the Legacy axe from Kara all through TBC. The progression from tier to tier was much less profound. As I can even recall the name of the items I had.
Progression got out of control When Blizzard shifted from a gradual character progression to shoving raiding down the player base's throats. In fact WoW's gear progression system was so broken, they had to introduce 5 man content that dropped better epic gear than the 20 man content from the same expansion and level cap. Now THAT is broken. I feel that as long as the player base has MANY options ranging from solo through 20man raids from which they can all aquire the same level of gear and that the item you aquired last week isn't obsoleted simply because it's last week's gear. Epic items should be just that....Epic. And someoen having ANY epic item appropriate for their level should not be disqualified for not being properly geared. And gear improvements should be kept slight.
One of the arguments I disagree with is the one that comes up all the time. As you said above "It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill)." I find this argument to be inaccurate. The terrible players typically don't get the gear. They usually won't or more than likely cant. They are bad players and con't compete in PVP. They probably don't enjoy PVP that much, they have a harder time with it and tend to avoid it more. Those who have the PVP gear have it because they spent so much time in PVP. And to that extent, no matter how bad you were when you started, to have stuck it out for the time it takes to get that gear, you can't be that bad anymore, there is no way you can get that much practice and still be bad. If you were then from what I've seen, you'd have gotten weeded out.
Now, for those who did earn the gear and who got good at PVP, going into a battleground against those who quit will win. But, even in a GW2 environment, they'd' still win. Gear aside, they are still better PVPers with more practical experience.
Finally, I think the "No carrot" argument in GW2 is flawed. GW2 is still an MMO, to keep it going indefinitely, you have to build loops into the game for replayability. No matter how good or fun it is initially, You have to have a reason to continue to do it over and over especially after the fun of doing something once or twice wears off. So there has to be a goal in the game of some kind to drive people to repeat content not just once or twice, but dozens of times.
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.
There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.
I think just enjoying the game will keep the game going and build the community. You believe the game needs gear grind to keep people interested. Most mmo's out there have your gear grind, so we know what happens with that. We get to see what a game this big does without the grind post-WoW era. I really do believe it will be huge hit and a great community that is there because they want to be there, not just to get the next stat upgrade.
Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P
I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.
I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.
To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"
See, here is the problem. Without gear progression players will keep moving on to the next new MMO. As the current expansion matures, the new expansion needs to reset ALL gear progression. The player then feels like everyone is starting out equal again on a level playing field. Without gear progression, we move on to the next new exciting MMO when the current expansion matures.
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
Unless new content is pumped out on a regular basis to justify chasing the gear.... It will never be "meaningful". That why I no longer play "gear grinds".
I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.
There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.
Change is scary isn't it? But also exciting. We'll see how it turns out but one thing's for sure, GW2 is turning the MMO genre upside down and every other company is running scared...I love it. No subs for a game with content => than sub-based AAA MMOs... The best PvP model since DAoC... downscaling players instead of content for mixed-level grouping... casual virtual grouping for events... and yes, no gear progression. Pretty compelling package.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by thamighty213 Gear progression is the worst thing that happened to MMO's ever PERIOD. The only people it served are the no lifes who have the time for it, Id rather a game based on skill that you can enjoy without feeling you have to keep up with the Jones' That was why I enjoyed SWG the most of all MMO's you grabbed a set of armour and off you went having fun, you didn't have to spend the best part of a 6 month grinding your ass off in boring raids or PVP to get gear that was needed just to be on an even par with others.
That is a little harsh there. Some people do enjoy a gear grind, they like to know that all the time and effort they put in has made them statistically better then the person that has not. Though I thank god that GW2 does not have a gear grind.
Some do but then you provide the grind in another form to them. Faction for titles or fluffy pets or a new great weapon or armor skin etc you don't have to tie core gameplay stats to the grind. No game has got this right yet IMO. I was subbed to SWG for 9.5 years (played it off and on though) and not once did I really feel like I had to grind, I stumbled upon my Jedi very early on a 7 prof unlock just off doing things I actually wanted to try. I loved space and RE'n but never felt like I was grinding parts for RE projects etc
In GW1 it was all about the cosmetics, and everyone wanted the coolest looking armor set or weapon. People worked hard to get these things, not because they had better stats, but because they looked the coolest!
Didnt really play GW long enough to comment due to the afrorementioned SWG I played GW for a month at laucnh and for the last month now with 7-8 years in between , from what I have played though indeed GW could have been that game. I certainly remember in the early days of GW at launch gridning my ass off to get a Chaos Axe for how awesome it looked cough an axe I'm still running around with in GW to this day cough.
Some people cant understand that the thrill of the kill makes them play instead of chasing a carrot that you never get :P
I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good. I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.
To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"
See, here is the problem. Without gear progression players will keep moving on to the next new MMO. As the current expansion matures, the new expansion needs to reset ALL gear progression. The player then feels like everyone is starting out equal again on a level playing field. Without gear progression, we move on to the next new exciting MMO when the current expansion matures.
Yes, but I'm not seeing the problem. New is good...much better than repeating the old.
My son and daughter both wanted to hear the same story at bed-time when they were toddlers. Now that they're older, they rarely if ever read the same book twice.
The only end-game pursut that has ever appealed to me is world PVP. It's not scripted. It's dynamic and just enough different every time to feel new. I don't need gear progressions for that. If it's good enough, it's worth doing for its own sake.
Gear progressions are more suited to scenario PvP or raiding where the name of the game is to do the same thing just a bit better than the last time you did it. The carrot to get you to do that is slightly better gear.
Like I said, to each their own but that type of team choreography is something I find excruciatingly boring. If that's all there is at end game, I just move on.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by Iselin Originally posted by AnubisanOriginally posted by Skarecrow7Originally posted by Anubisan
Change is scary isn't it? But also exciting. We'll see how it turns out but one thing's for sure, GW2 is turning the MMO genre upside down and every other company is running scared...I love it. No subs for a game with content = than sub-based AAA MMOs... The best PvP model since DAoC... downscaling players instead of content for mixed-level grouping... casual virtual grouping for events... and yes, no gear progression. Pretty compelling package.
Let's see if GW2 can hold on to it's initial numbers for more than 3 months before we lable it as genre changing shall we? There's no doubt the game will launch with flying colors, but as many people said, there is some question as to how long it will be sustainable given the game's design. I doubt many games are running scared, Most are going to patiently wait for the "storm" to subside. This game looks like it will eventually settle into many people's backup or secondary game. I mean, for cryin out loud, this is 2012, we have not seen one single game shut down as a direct result of some new MMO's release and players leaving it for another. Even WoW didn't kill any other games directly by that method. The only thing that comes close was SWG/SWTOR but that was more over politics of the IP.
Originally posted by Anubisan I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
Unless new content is pumped out on a regular basis to justify chasing the gear.... It will never be "meaningful". That why I no longer play "gear grinds".
If what you said is true, then why is there so many people leaving their current gear grind MMO's?????
IF Gear Progression keeps players and build strong communities, then why is there so many leaving their strong communities and Gear Progression behind and looking for something else???
I was one of the few that got to Battlemaster gear in SWTOR, before Battlemaster is everywhere. Sure I used the Ilum exploit to get my dailies done before they change it, I got lucky on my RNG. But as the days go by, it was no longer meaningful, the grind got to me in 2 weeks of farming those Battlemaster gear. Sure the community of my Guild kept me for an additional 2 weeks, but I got so fed up with it that I said goodbye and left and never looked back.
During the first week of SWTOR when it was launched, the PVP was fun, everyone was pretty much on equal footing, the fights was fun, exciting, and very enjoyable without gear stats.
Back to GW2, after watching the Taugrim videos of him playing a Warrior, I just realized that I need more practice with my Warrior builds. I thought I was good, but he would definitely destroy me if I go 1 vs 1 with him. But it has nothing to do with Gears, it has everything to do with his skill, his personal build that works for him. And I don't have to give up, because by playing around with my own build, I just might beat him if i go 1 vs 1, just not right now. ^^
Thats what GW2 offers, the ability to test your skills and builds. And that has infinite playability.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Originally posted by snapfusionGear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.*snip*
Stopped right there. No it doesn't. It makes no-lifers OP compared to casuals. End of story.
Originally posted by Anubisan I think the OP makes a valid point. No matter how fun the game is, people will get tired of it and stop playing without a meaningful gear progression to keep them in the game. I think Anet is making a serious miscalculation with this... and I think there will be a massive exodus in a few months when people have exhausted the content and have no goals left to strive toward.
There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.
There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.
I think your comments will be true for some, but not everyone who plays GW2. The other side is that you will have folks play at great length because there is no gear grind. Sure you can go out and collect sets of items to change how you look, but you aren't forced in and out of new sets of gear because of statistical upgrades.
I would argue that Guild Wars 2 isn't for the gear grinding, raid centric minded people, but rather for achievers and explorers. It's also a game for PvP minded folks, who want to PvP and not really have to worry about falling far behind in some gearing race. Look at what happened to DAoC after they added their version of a gear grind in ToA (population dropped after ToA big time).
I would also argue that the amount of folks who enjoy the gear grind is a lot smaller than we are lead to believe. The gear grind is WoW (best example of a gear grind game) has been made progressively easier over the years because of how annoying it truly is. Even when Blizzard tried to bring some of the harder gameplay back in Cataclysm, they were met with millions of lost subs. Most want to game to have fun, and not have a second job.
Let's see if GW2 can hold on to it's initial numbers for more than 3 months before we lable it as genre changing shall we? There's no doubt the game will launch with flying colors, but as many people said, there is some question as to how long it will be sustainable given the game's design.
I doubt many games are running scared, Most are going to patiently wait for the "storm" to subside. This game looks like it will eventually settle into many people's backup or secondary game. I mean, for cryin out loud, this is 2012, we have not seen one single game shut down as a direct result of some new MMO's release and players leaving it for another. Even WoW didn't kill any other games directly by that method. The only thing that comes close was SWG/SWTOR but that was more over politics of the IP.
This. There is too much hype surrounding GW2 for my taste. I played in the open beta weekends and I was not impressed. I am not going to get sucked into another SW:TOR. That game had a lot of hype, too.
I agree with you that the rest of the industry is going to patiently watch and wait. See what works, see what doesn't, and perhaps incorporate some of those ideas into their upcoming titles or expansions.
Originally posted by snapfusionGear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.*snip*
Stopped right there. No it doesn't. It makes no-lifers OP compared to casuals. End of story.
Gear progression works good for a number of reasons:
It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.
It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill).
In other words it allows everyone regardless of skill to feel powerfull to some extent and thats VERY applealing if you want to attract a wide market, which Anet wants to do.
It provides a progression system that keeps players active in the game.
You take all that away and eventually all your left with is a small group of elite players playing your game, so basically a dismal population.
No matter how much "fun" you think Anet has built into the game it will get old.
And with no progression to keep players moving forward most players will move on.
EDIT: Sorry about the paragragh block the line spacing wont take.
How is gear making good players great? It doesn't exactly magically gift you with skill. Good players who are lacking in gear will also get owned by terrible ones with grinding time to spare, so the ownage works separately from skill in that way too.
You have a point when saying it gives the average player a way to "feel great" while actually not doing great. But again, that is a double-edged sword, overdo that and new players in the system will get extremely frustrated and leave, which is what you're seeing with SW:TOR now for example.
Also, as more and more tiers come out, every single player, whether average or not, will tire of the grind.
Average and bad players can also be given their time to shine by implementing a working matchmaking system that puts them against players of the same skill level, which allows them to gradually improve without bringing tons of frustration with it.
All the while you can still earn cosmetic rewards or even gear to give you that carrot, as long as the PvP itself stays normalized.
Honestly, the more MMO's I play, the less I care about having better numbers than the next guy.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Change is scary isn't it? But also exciting. We'll see how it turns out but one thing's for sure, GW2 is turning the MMO genre upside down and every other company is running scared...I love it. No subs for a game with content = than sub-based AAA MMOs... The best PvP model since DAoC... downscaling players instead of content for mixed-level grouping... casual virtual grouping for events... and yes, no gear progression. Pretty compelling package.
Let's see if GW2 can hold on to it's initial numbers for more than 3 months before we lable it as genre changing shall we? There's no doubt the game will launch with flying colors, but as many people said, there is some question as to how long it will be sustainable given the game's design. I doubt many games are running scared, Most are going to patiently wait for the "storm" to subside. This game looks like it will eventually settle into many people's backup or secondary game. I mean, for cryin out loud, this is 2012, we have not seen one single game shut down as a direct result of some new MMO's release and players leaving it for another. Even WoW didn't kill any other games directly by that method. The only thing that comes close was SWG/SWTOR but that was more over politics of the IP.
I don't have to wait to know that GW2 has brought the discussion about why anyone pays a monthly sub to play an MMO front and center. The old answer that it's because the F2P game has less content or is unpolished doesn't apply here. That, all by itself is cause for all sub-based MMOs to worry about their bottom line.
And btw, running scared doesn't imply "WOW killer." It just means that every other sub-based MMO is obviously paying attention to GW2, releasing patches in and around its release date and some are even announcing changes to bring the games in line with what they perceive to be GW2's strengths: Rift's 3 sided PVP and minimizing gear effects in PVP annoucements come to mind.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Originally posted by snapfusionGear progression works good for a number of reasons:It makes good players great and it makes great players amazing.*snip*
Stopped right there. No it doesn't. It makes no-lifers OP compared to casuals. End of story.
Comments
Deliberate losers, keep traders, afkers, exploiters, farmers, poopsocking "elites" etc..
Sorry, no offence intended, but what i read sounded more like "We need more carrot on a stick. Why? Because it makes me big and strong!! Yaay!!" to me :Try to look a situation from a bit different angle?
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
Or daoc, soft and hard stat caps, 99% good crafted gear etc..
It's just the wow model that leads to suck pvp. It's a socialist model that allows a poopsocking girlfriendless doleite to feel special about winning virtually because they have lots of spare time due to failing in real life.
I can once again edit posts.
There is gear progression. There is no gear treadmill. MEaning the top end gear does not change every major content patch or whatever schedule other games have.
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/
Summary
I played Wow a lot and I loved to do achievements run, or transmog runs BUT I always felt like i was loosing my time doing that, because I could go grind for gear that would actually give me better stats.
In guild wars 2 I will be able to do those things without having to worry about my friends getting stronger. But I don't know yet if that formulae will keep me addicted to the game enough for me to play for more than a month.
God I'm waiting for the game so bad, but I do hope that i'll fall in love
Gear Progression Is neither good nor bad. It's method of game play. If done properly, it can be fun. For the most part, I don't recall these arguments against gear progression being all that common back in the 1st 2 expansions in WoW, In fact, TBC progression was quite reasonable. I had characters that I raided with and did quite well, that still had some blues in a few slots. And my Hunter had the Legacy axe from Kara all through TBC. The progression from tier to tier was much less profound. As I can even recall the name of the items I had.
Progression got out of control When Blizzard shifted from a gradual character progression to shoving raiding down the player base's throats. In fact WoW's gear progression system was so broken, they had to introduce 5 man content that dropped better epic gear than the 20 man content from the same expansion and level cap. Now THAT is broken. I feel that as long as the player base has MANY options ranging from solo through 20man raids from which they can all aquire the same level of gear and that the item you aquired last week isn't obsoleted simply because it's last week's gear. Epic items should be just that....Epic. And someoen having ANY epic item appropriate for their level should not be disqualified for not being properly geared. And gear improvements should be kept slight.
One of the arguments I disagree with is the one that comes up all the time. As you said above "It also allows terrible players through gear grinding to dominate at some level, (dominate the new players leveling up regardless of the new players skill)." I find this argument to be inaccurate. The terrible players typically don't get the gear. They usually won't or more than likely cant. They are bad players and con't compete in PVP. They probably don't enjoy PVP that much, they have a harder time with it and tend to avoid it more. Those who have the PVP gear have it because they spent so much time in PVP. And to that extent, no matter how bad you were when you started, to have stuck it out for the time it takes to get that gear, you can't be that bad anymore, there is no way you can get that much practice and still be bad. If you were then from what I've seen, you'd have gotten weeded out.
Now, for those who did earn the gear and who got good at PVP, going into a battleground against those who quit will win. But, even in a GW2 environment, they'd' still win. Gear aside, they are still better PVPers with more practical experience.
Finally, I think the "No carrot" argument in GW2 is flawed. GW2 is still an MMO, to keep it going indefinitely, you have to build loops into the game for replayability. No matter how good or fun it is initially, You have to have a reason to continue to do it over and over especially after the fun of doing something once or twice wears off. So there has to be a goal in the game of some kind to drive people to repeat content not just once or twice, but dozens of times.
So then, if not gear....what will you grind?
There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.
There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.I think just enjoying the game will keep the game going and build the community. You believe the game needs gear grind to keep people interested. Most mmo's out there have your gear grind, so we know what happens with that. We get to see what a game this big does without the grind post-WoW era. I really do believe it will be huge hit and a great community that is there because they want to be there, not just to get the next stat upgrade.
I enjoyed Arena in WoW. That's the ONLY way I made it through the thousand or so matches before I became good.I'm not sure what you call it, but soon after I reach skill cap pwning bad players loses it's thrill. I know I'm better, you know I'm better. What's the purpose? This is were gear as in the form of a statistical upgrade becomes more of a motivating factor for me than cosmetics. Reaching the goal of obtaining said gear becomes my new fun.
To each their own but gear progressions to me has always felt like tacked-on artificial goals that attempt to motivate us to do things we wouldn't do otherwise: namely run that same tired old dungeon for the billionth time. I play these games to have fun and doing new things is part of that fun for me. Gear progressions feel like the dev is saying to me: "OK, you had your fun. Now we have something completely different for you...stamp collecting!"
See, here is the problem. Without gear progression players will keep moving on to the next new MMO. As the current expansion matures, the new expansion needs to reset ALL gear progression. The player then feels like everyone is starting out equal again on a level playing field. Without gear progression, we move on to the next new exciting MMO when the current expansion matures.Unless new content is pumped out on a regular basis to justify chasing the gear.... It will never be "meaningful". That why I no longer play "gear grinds".
There I think you are wrong. Just because it worked for WoW doesnt mean it will work for GW2. I mean, hows the gear grind in SWTOR helping that game? You are also not thinking of how GW2 is set up. There is no sub. It is a game like TF2. I will play the hell out of that for weeks at a time. Then I will take a break till I feel like playing it again. You can't do that with say Warhammer online. When I get the itch to play that again, I think about having to put my cc in again and pay $15. What if I play for a week and get distracted by something else. I hate wasting money. And since I havent played for a year or so, I will be so far behind everyone else in gear that it just aint worth reinstalling.
There's another side to that same argument though. The fact that there is no subscription fee and no real gear progression means that there is far less incentive for people to feel invested in the game and stay long term. They will do exactly what you describe and leave for long periods of time, only returning when they want their quick fix. They won't stay and foster a strong and healthy community because they will have no reason to do so. They won't need a strong guild to help them progress through difficult content and earn their next piece of gear. Hell, they won't even need to do that content. There is no real incentive to even bother with it. What I fear we will end up with is the ultimate casual game... with no real community and no real long-term goals to strive for. I hope I am wrong, but I just don't see it at this point.
Change is scary isn't it? But also exciting. We'll see how it turns out but one thing's for sure, GW2 is turning the MMO genre upside down and every other company is running scared...I love it. No subs for a game with content => than sub-based AAA MMOs... The best PvP model since DAoC... downscaling players instead of content for mixed-level grouping... casual virtual grouping for events... and yes, no gear progression. Pretty compelling package.“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Karma, the question is what will karma buy us that is enough incentive to stick around.
Cosmetics do the trick for me, but surely there must be some other type of system as well.
Surely Anet knows that part of the RPG psychology is the persistent and continued growth of your character.
Didnt really play GW long enough to comment due to the afrorementioned SWG I played GW for a month at laucnh and for the last month now with 7-8 years in between
, from what I have played though indeed GW could have been that game. I certainly remember in the early days of GW at launch gridning my ass off to get a Chaos Axe for how awesome it looked cough an axe I'm still running around with in GW to this day cough.
Variety is a good thing too
why should every mmo *require* mandatory hamster wheels ?
EQ2 fan sites
Yes, but I'm not seeing the problem. New is good...much better than repeating the old.
My son and daughter both wanted to hear the same story at bed-time when they were toddlers. Now that they're older, they rarely if ever read the same book twice.
The only end-game pursut that has ever appealed to me is world PVP. It's not scripted. It's dynamic and just enough different every time to feel new. I don't need gear progressions for that. If it's good enough, it's worth doing for its own sake.
Gear progressions are more suited to scenario PvP or raiding where the name of the game is to do the same thing just a bit better than the last time you did it. The carrot to get you to do that is slightly better gear.
Like I said, to each their own but that type of team choreography is something I find excruciatingly boring. If that's all there is at end game, I just move on.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Change is scary isn't it? But also exciting. We'll see how it turns out but one thing's for sure, GW2 is turning the MMO genre upside down and every other company is running scared...I love it. No subs for a game with content = than sub-based AAA MMOs... The best PvP model since DAoC... downscaling players instead of content for mixed-level grouping... casual virtual grouping for events... and yes, no gear progression. Pretty compelling package.
Let's see if GW2 can hold on to it's initial numbers for more than 3 months before we lable it as genre changing shall we? There's no doubt the game will launch with flying colors, but as many people said, there is some question as to how long it will be sustainable given the game's design.
I doubt many games are running scared, Most are going to patiently wait for the "storm" to subside. This game looks like it will eventually settle into many people's backup or secondary game. I mean, for cryin out loud, this is 2012, we have not seen one single game shut down as a direct result of some new MMO's release and players leaving it for another. Even WoW didn't kill any other games directly by that method. The only thing that comes close was SWG/SWTOR but that was more over politics of the IP.
If what you said is true, then why is there so many people leaving their current gear grind MMO's?????
IF Gear Progression keeps players and build strong communities, then why is there so many leaving their strong communities and Gear Progression behind and looking for something else???
I was one of the few that got to Battlemaster gear in SWTOR, before Battlemaster is everywhere. Sure I used the Ilum exploit to get my dailies done before they change it, I got lucky on my RNG. But as the days go by, it was no longer meaningful, the grind got to me in 2 weeks of farming those Battlemaster gear. Sure the community of my Guild kept me for an additional 2 weeks, but I got so fed up with it that I said goodbye and left and never looked back.
During the first week of SWTOR when it was launched, the PVP was fun, everyone was pretty much on equal footing, the fights was fun, exciting, and very enjoyable without gear stats.
Back to GW2, after watching the Taugrim videos of him playing a Warrior, I just realized that I need more practice with my Warrior builds. I thought I was good, but he would definitely destroy me if I go 1 vs 1 with him. But it has nothing to do with Gears, it has everything to do with his skill, his personal build that works for him. And I don't have to give up, because by playing around with my own build, I just might beat him if i go 1 vs 1, just not right now. ^^
Thats what GW2 offers, the ability to test your skills and builds. And that has infinite playability.
Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.
Stopped right there. No it doesn't. It makes no-lifers OP compared to casuals. End of story.
I would like to add...
I wouldnt be that worried either. The game DO have gear progression, just not in the way we got used to. Still, many like the changes, many dont.
If i would prefer "tiered gear" progression, i would stick to WoW. New expansion pack is comming soon anyway.
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
I think your comments will be true for some, but not everyone who plays GW2. The other side is that you will have folks play at great length because there is no gear grind. Sure you can go out and collect sets of items to change how you look, but you aren't forced in and out of new sets of gear because of statistical upgrades.
I would argue that Guild Wars 2 isn't for the gear grinding, raid centric minded people, but rather for achievers and explorers. It's also a game for PvP minded folks, who want to PvP and not really have to worry about falling far behind in some gearing race. Look at what happened to DAoC after they added their version of a gear grind in ToA (population dropped after ToA big time).
I would also argue that the amount of folks who enjoy the gear grind is a lot smaller than we are lead to believe. The gear grind is WoW (best example of a gear grind game) has been made progressively easier over the years because of how annoying it truly is. Even when Blizzard tried to bring some of the harder gameplay back in Cataclysm, they were met with millions of lost subs. Most want to game to have fun, and not have a second job.
This. There is too much hype surrounding GW2 for my taste. I played in the open beta weekends and I was not impressed. I am not going to get sucked into another SW:TOR. That game had a lot of hype, too.
I agree with you that the rest of the industry is going to patiently watch and wait. See what works, see what doesn't, and perhaps incorporate some of those ideas into their upcoming titles or expansions.
Lol was that the guy that raged about his D3 account stolen?
Main MMO at the moment: Guild Wars 2
Waiting for: Pathfinder Online
How is gear making good players great? It doesn't exactly magically gift you with skill.
Good players who are lacking in gear will also get owned by terrible ones with grinding time to spare, so the ownage works separately from skill in that way too.
You have a point when saying it gives the average player a way to "feel great" while actually not doing great. But again, that is a double-edged sword, overdo that and new players in the system will get extremely frustrated and leave, which is what you're seeing with SW:TOR now for example.
Also, as more and more tiers come out, every single player, whether average or not, will tire of the grind.
Average and bad players can also be given their time to shine by implementing a working matchmaking system that puts them against players of the same skill level, which allows them to gradually improve without bringing tons of frustration with it.
All the while you can still earn cosmetic rewards or even gear to give you that carrot, as long as the PvP itself stays normalized.
Honestly, the more MMO's I play, the less I care about having better numbers than the next guy.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
I don't have to wait to know that GW2 has brought the discussion about why anyone pays a monthly sub to play an MMO front and center. The old answer that it's because the F2P game has less content or is unpolished doesn't apply here. That, all by itself is cause for all sub-based MMOs to worry about their bottom line.
And btw, running scared doesn't imply "WOW killer." It just means that every other sub-based MMO is obviously paying attention to GW2, releasing patches in and around its release date and some are even announcing changes to bring the games in line with what they perceive to be GW2's strengths: Rift's 3 sided PVP and minimizing gear effects in PVP annoucements come to mind.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Boogie/Francis is funny XD BTW..he's a Internet comedian if you didn't know. That video was him doing the Francis personality.