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The Beginning of the End

There is a new update coming at the moment City of Villains launches that has caused a firestorm on the CoH discussion forums.  To date, throughout the forum site, there has been over 4,000 posts regarding this new update since it was annouced about two weeks ago.  Note, also, that Jack Emmert, a.k.a. Statesman, has stated that this was in the works since March of 2005.  Here it is, straight from CuppaJo on the forums:

 

Enhancement Diversification:

This is a new system being implemented into City of Villains and City of Heroes (when City of Villains launches) to promote the use of more different types of Enhancements in powers. Using a system of diminishing returns, when slotting the same type of Enhancement into a power, you will begin to see less effect of that Enhancement when the bonus reaches a certain threshold. The effectiveness of Enhancements you are slotting in can now be seen in the Enhancement Slotting screen.

What does this mean? Simply, if you are slotting Enhancements and your bonus to a single attribute reaches 70% through Enhancements, you will begin to see a drop in the amount each Enhancement should be giving you. If you exceed 100% bonus, then the drop will be more severe. We have added to the Enhancement Slotting screen a display of how much bonus you are getting from your Enhancements. When you are adding in Enhancements that will be reduced in effectiveness you will be able to tell.

Note that this only affects Enhancements of the same bonus. So you can have a Damage bonus of 66.66%, and an Accuracy bonus of 66.66% (from 2 SO Damage and 2 SO Accuracy Enhancements) and you will not be affected in any way. Adding in another SO Damage Enhancement will not give you a 99% bonus, but a 94% bonus, because the damage bonus now exceeds 70%.

A good rule of thumb is “2 Single Origins Enhancements = No Reduction. 3 SO’s = Slight Reduction. 4 SO’s = Moderate Reduction. 5 or 6 SO’s = Major Reduction”

What if I don’t have more than 2 SO’s of any one type in my powers already? Then you have nothing to worry about, your character will function exactly as they did previous to this feature being added.

Does this affect Dual Origin Enhancements at all? Yes. If you have 5 DO’s of all the same type you would normally get an 83% bonus. Because of Enhancement Diversification your bonus will actually only get an 82% bonus. If you have 6 DO’s of all the same type, instead of a 100% bonus you will have a bonus of 95%.

Are Hamidon Enhancements affected? Yes. The bonuses that a Hamidon Enhancement gives you that exceed 70% will be reduced. Because of this change, Hamidon (and other dual-purpose) Enhancements are now combinable. You can only combine dual-purpose Enhancements that affect ALL the same bonuses (so you can combine Damage/Accuracy with another Damage/Accuracy, but not with a Damage/Endurance Reduction).

This totally cripples my character! I thought you were done balancing the game? All the Issue 4 and 5 balance adjustments were done with this system in place internally here at Cryptic. All playtests, QA checks, difficulty adjustments and balances have been done with Enhancement Diversification in mind since March 2005.

What if a power only takes one type of Enhancement to begin with? You have a couple of choices. You can respec the character and only go so far as putting a couple slots into the power, or you can go with more slots and eke out a little more effectiveness out of the Enhancements.

How can I tell when I am not getting full effectiveness out of an Enhancement? On the Enhancement Slotting Screen you will now see what bonuses Enhancements are giving you. This will help you make the choice as to what Enhancements to slot over what.

Does it matter what order I slot Enhancements in? No. The reduction in effectiveness is calculated off the total bonus you are receiving, so it does not matter what order you slotted the Enhancements in.

How is combining Enhancements affected by this? Enhancements that are higher level than you give you a bonus above normal Enhancements, if you combine Enhancements to get a higher bonus, this may put you over the point at which a reduction in effectiveness takes place.

Some Enhancements give me a 33.33%/16.66%/8.35% bonus, and others give me a different bonus, how are these affected by Enhancement Diversification? There are four categories of Enhancements, Schedule A, Schedule B, Schedule C, and Schedule D. The majority of Enhancements fall into the Schedule A category. This means that an even-level Training Origin Enhancement gives an 8.35% bonus, an even-level Dual Origin Enhancement gives me a 16.66% bonus, and an even-level Single Origin Enhancement gives a 33.33% bonus. All of the examples above assume using Schedule A Enhancements, since these are the most common.

Schedule B Enhancements are things Defense Buff, Damage Resistance, Range Increase and To Hit Buff. These have a smaller bonus because a small shift in these values has a larger impact on gameplay. With these Enhancements a Training Origin Enhancement gives a 5% bonus, a Dual Origin Enhancement gives a 10% bonus, and a Single Origin Enhancement gives a 20% bonus. Enhancement Diversification for these bonuses kicks in at 40% with a severe drop at 60%.

What Enhancement Types are what bonuses (schedules)?
Schedule A Enhancements (33.33%, 16.66%, 8.35%) are:
Accuracy, Confuse, Damage, Defense DeBuff, Drain Endurance, Endurance Discount, Fear, Fly, Heal, Hold, Immobilize, Intangible, Jump, Recharge, Recovery, Run, Sleep, Snare, Stun, Taunt, To Hit Debuff
These bonus types start to see reduction when the bonus is 70% or more, and a severe reduction at 100% bonus or greater.

Schedule B Enhancements (20%, 10%, 5%) are:
Range, Defense Buff, Resist Damage, To Hit Buff
These bonus types start to see reduction when the bonus is 40% or more, and a severe reduction at 60% bonus or greater.

Schedule C Enhancements (40%, 20%, 10%) are:
Interrupt
This bonus type starts to see reduction when the bonus is 80% or more, and a severe reduction at 120% bonus or greater.

Schedule D Enhancements (60%, 30%, 15%) are:
Knockback
This bonus type starts to see reduction when the bonus is 120% or more, and a severe reduction at 180% bonus or greater

Also - There will be a 12% reduction in endurance cost for ALL powers and a reduction in the debt cap by 50% due to this system.

 

Since this hit the forums, my supergroup of over fifty members that has been there since Issue 2 has vanished.  Why?  Because for the past four updates (called issues, in City of Heroes), players have had their characters radically nerfed for one reason or another, and there was a promise by Jack Emmert (the lead developer at Cryptic) that powers would no longer be affected by updates.  This is a lie.  If you don't really understand what all this Enhancement Diversifacation means, understand that in City of Heroes enhancements are what is used to bolster ones powers and abilities, similar to Talents in World of Warcraft.  Imagine in WoW of having everybody's combat abilities and magic abilites severely nerfed to foster greater interdependence among character archetypes.  In other words, the people at CoH/CoV want to force people to team together by making them weaker overall. 

When CoH started, it was truly fun.  The best thing about it was that it made you actually feel like you were a superhero, able to take down multiple enemies in ways that would make any character in World of Warcraft feel envious.  Many of us stood loyal to CoH despite many of the nerfs the developers inflicted on us in the name of game balance.  But this one is the last straw. 

Already, hundreds of people have declared that they're canceling their accounts on the forums.  And if Cryptic doesn't listen to what the players have to say, they may never be able to recover from the sudden drop in subscriptions.  I predict that people will play City of Villains and keep them afloat for awhile, but I'm giving them up to a year before they fold. 

 

 


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Comments

  • Sanctus_MorsSanctus_Mors Member Posts: 597

    You are aware that this was already implimented in the CoV beta test...and recently on the CoH test. My question is this..did you test?

     

    Oh ya, you forgot to add "DOOOOOOM"

     

    your arguement is so persuasive, so filled with knowledge and insight. You back up your argument very articulately, with suggestions of improvements and raising examples to glorify your position....oh wait, you didn't

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457

    what use is the test server if the players have already moved on to new game?

     

    Trying doesn't actually matter, merely the perception of being nerfed is enough to scare off subscribers in their droves.

    I've noticed a whole load of ex COH players wash up in my WOW server this week.

     

    If you provide a service and you offer the customers something they do not want, and they tell you they do nopt want it, and you still go ahead and do it, (repeatedly), it's not really a big surprise if those customers are going to take their money elsewhere.

  • Deadaye13Deadaye13 Member Posts: 106

    It's interesting because if you think about it, the only powers that they're nerfing single enhancment powers like stamina and health.

    All fighting powers only need damage and accuracy so that really isn't that bad....just split it up more. Plus they've nerfed the end cost of all skills.

    People are taking this way to literally...IT'S NOT THAT BAD PEOPLE!!!! Just take assult or something....jesus...

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  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529

    It's not like you notice ONE DIFFERENCE in test.

    I recreated my Blaster for the event, and slotted it the same way I would and didn't notice any difference.

    N0NE.

    But as always... one tweak and everyone gets their nipples twisted. It isn't like they totally revamped the combat system and made half the classes useless... then they'd be Sony.

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
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  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    Cryptic is punishing skill.

     

    They want everyone to be equal.  Communists think that way to.  In the end, you have no skill and tons of skilless persons, all more corrupted than their neighbor and ready to use any edge given to them (pot de vin) as long as it require nothing from their part like thinking or risk.  I think some fanbois are a prime example, but I will not give you any direct name.  I let you check this site for fanbois.  No, Sanctus is not a fanboi, he is an optimist and a very nice and skilled person to be with!  image

     

    Nothing new there.  They might as well just remove all enhancements and just leave you with your powers.  Would save them time.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • WayfinderWayfinder Member Posts: 3

    Yes, I am aware they've already implemented this on CoV, and frankly I'm appalled.  And to those of you who think that all this does is seriously hamper single enhancement powers like Stamina and Hasten, think again.  Just about everyone is affected.  Blasters don't do nearly as much damage as they used to before, and Tankers will need those Empathy heroes alongside them to nursemaid them along.  Healers won't heal as much, though that doesn't matter nearly as much that Scrappers have now limited options as far as defenses and regeneration are concerned.  Controller's holds will not last as long, which, I suppose, they've been trying to figure out for PvP.  In other words, you won't be able to solo as you used to.  So far, this really doesn't have all that much effect on Kheldians except that you won't see too many dedicated "human" Kheldians, or dedicated anything, but rather a shapeshifting jack-of-a-few-trades, master of none. 

    The sad part is that none of this is justifiable.  None.  All this will do is force people to team up whenever they're going to go up against Orange or better foes, and some heroes will now think twice about taking on Yellows for fear of aggroing another one nearby.  I had one developer tell me that not every mod or issue is supposed to make your character stronger, and my response was, "What issue or mod have you put forth that DID make my character stronger?"  He responded, "We gave you break-frees and sturdies."   Yeah, big boost; way more than offsets the castrations they've done to various heroes over the course of CoH's lifetime. 

    I think it can be said that nobody likes to be nerfed, even if it is justified.  What Cryptic does every time they think there's some sort of imbalance between the players and the NPCs is that they reflexively nerf the players first and foremost.  And when they do nerf something, like they did with Taunt for instance, they go about it in the most mentally lazy way they can.  I agreed that something had to be done with Taunt, but what they did was limit the effectiveness of Taunt to only five enemies, and that was just plain stupid.  It would've been better if, instead of nerfing the effectiveness, change the tactics of the Taunted adversaries in a very simple way:  Have half of the Taunted only use ranged attacks.  This way the enemy is spread out and more difficult to consolidate, forcing the Taunting player to rethink herding the enemy.  When I5 came out, I saw about a quarter of the players I knew cancel their subscriptions over this alone (nerfing Ice Patch and Burn was another issue).  With this upcoming Enhancement Diversifacation, I saw my entire supergroup disappear in the span of four days!!!  No amount of spin can tell any of these guys that this is not a nerf, or anything that will seriously emasculate their characters in profound ways. 

    If secondary effects were really effective, people would slot different enhancements for their powers anyway.  But alas, the idiots at Cryptic take the path of least resistence, and they will pay dearly for it. 

  • RazorbackRazorback Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 5,253



    Originally posted by Wayfinder



    Does this affect Dual Origin Enhancements at all? Yes. If you have 5 DO’s of all the same type you would normally get an 83% bonus. Because of Enhancement Diversification your bonus will actually only get an 82% bonus. If you have 6 DO’s of all the same type, instead of a 100% bonus you will have a bonus of 95%.





    Well I played from late Beta through release too... So Im not talking from reading a few forums and no idea of the effects of this stuff..

    In the first 6 weeks of the game I tink everyone could agree that the AT's were not balanced and the environment lent itself to exploitation. If you take the zones with War Wolves in them, any flying/hover class or anyone capable of climbing a building could herd and blast them all day with no risk. Let alone what FT's would do to these Mobs. Consequently many people who are at any other time, not poweleveling type players managed to race to 50 really fast. I did it in just under 3 months and I really wasnt trying.

    Anyone could see this was going to get adjusted to slow the churn rate of players getting to 50, getting sick of the game and leaving.

    So here it is... the inevitable has happened and people seem surprised !

    Interestingly I too have returned to CoH to hone my skills for CoV and I am in CoV Beta. I am looking at the new maths you can see on the enhancement screens and playing with similar and different characters to try and guage what difference there is at a gameplay level.

    Im happy to say that to me... the game seems basically no different. Obviously it is... but it could have (and maybe should have) been much worse...

    I am a rabid anti nerf campaigner. I strongly argue that you should NEVER take things away from players, you should try and balance by adding not subtrating. So using my system all powers and enhancements would have stayed and monsters would have got a boost to counter it for example.

    Having said all of that.... the game remains eminently playable and fun. If you look at the one bit of math I quoted.... wwe are talking about worst case scenarios of 5% reductions.... Its not the end of the world.

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  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529


    Originally posted by Anofalye
    Cryptic is punishing skill.

    WTF skill does it take to jam 6 of the same enhancements in a power? Counting to six? My 4 year old did that.

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
    Proud member of the Cabal.
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    It sounds great, so great in fact, I pitty those who canceled :( - Some deluded SWG fanboi who pities me.
    I don't like it when you say things. - A Vanguard fan who does too.
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  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433

    Cryptic think of the players as opponents.  They try to defeat the players.  They should be happy to show us the way, help us, not to much, but help us.  They should be happy when we learn and developp skill, bring the game 1 step deeper, 1 step harder.

     

    Instead, they consider the players like enemies, and when a player achieve something he was not supposed to, NERF instead of applauding and than adding new harder content.  They destroy everything, content, depht, skill.  When I solo the Battle Maiden I can almost see Stateman red in anger and rage, rather than amused and applauding and telling the staff they need to add real group content, not remove solo stuff.  I was having a blast, I was making FUN.  I was enjoying their product.  And it look like they where angry, somehow they feel like I defeat them, while in fact, I just achieve success and overcome a great challenge in the game.  I didnt wage a war on their game.  I was understanding and progressing...and saddly it was well past the point anyone in their team seem to understand the game...well in the decision team.  Because I would bet that some underpaid guy at Cryptic is a freaking genius and responsible for most of the FUN the players experience.  And to that underpaid guy, whoever you are, if you ever read this, I can only bow to your genius and kindness!  Keep the good work, save their arse if you can, before it is to late, because they sure can sunk the Titanic if you don't tell them not to.

     

    If a player solo a target (without abusing a dumb bug like pathing in a wall), that target is solo content, weither it was the intent or not.  A good designer accept this, applaud, realize he put more solo content and less grouping than he intend and focus on adding group content rather than removing from Jack to give to Bob, even Bob fun will be smaller because he know it was belonging to Jack, Bob would prefer to have something for him.  Game balancing is before retail for almost every product, game balancing post-release is a subject that was rarely even considered, and I see that Cryptic just apply it, without any consideration, like if it was still in Alpha, Beta or whatever silly term a company like Ubisoft use between 1 and 2.  SoE designers could prolly give us much insight on game balancing after release no matter how much hatred they got (and the raiding mistake, but that is another topic in itself), but I doubt they will grace us with this knowledge!  image

     

    Bob Bates writes a nice book on Game Design, Cryptic would learn a lot from reading it.

     

    PS: Shaydes, there is more skill in having to handle more enhancements possibilities than in having to handle less.  Now they cut the options, they reduce...they remove...and it was not necessary.  They obviously need to learn the basics on how to design.  Next thing they could do is remove all enhancements, just to make sure everyone is equal.  Maybe they could also remove the choice of powers and make everyone learn pre-determine powers.  Now it would be the ultimate destination on the path they take.  They took a wrong path.  Their job is to encourage the players, to let us play and developp.  To give us many respec yes, but to let's us prosper and learn in a nice and FUN way.  Remove nice options for soloers didn't improve grouping, peoples don't group more, soloers leave.  So yes, in % you have more groupers, since 20/40 vs 9/10, the first number is 50% grouping and 50% soloing, yet 20 in both, the second number is 90% grouping, but only 9 in groups.

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • ShaydeShayde Member Posts: 4,529

    You know I haven't seen ONE thing that you could solo before unsoloable now. The power difference is negligable.

    You may have to pop a heal on yourself now. BFD.

    Shayde - SWG (dead)
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  • usefuluseful Member Posts: 85

    Last I heard, the NO on "Enhancement Diversification" threads hit around 4000 posts on the
    City of Heroes forums.

    I agree, its a re-design of how the combat system works with the game up to now.
    It forces other powers to get slotted up.

    It totally sucks. I dont like the changes. I never agreed to them. It's one hell of
    a downgrade for another patch. It's another reason why Im glad Im not paying $15 dollars a month ::::02::

    Theres really nothing that can be done about it. None of the players have any power to effect
    changes in the game. The only ones who can change it, work for Cryptic. And all they like to do
    is nerf the hell out of the game. Really, the only way I can see these changes to get reversed is to
    hit the corporation in the pocket. And that means not paying them to play the game.

    Postcards, e-mails, forum speak fall onto deaf ears.

    I just gave up on the game. Eat that Cryptic ::::01::

  • WayfinderWayfinder Member Posts: 3



    Originally posted by Shayde

    You know I haven't seen ONE thing that you could solo before unsoloable now. The power difference is negligable.
    You may have to pop a heal on yourself now. BFD.


     

    Ummm...have you actually played it?  I mean, I played it with my Level 35 Invuln/SS tanker on the test server, and I can't solo worth a damn, not nearly as I used to.  My damage resistances have been effectively stymied in half, and my damage output is all but incapable of doing anything significant to a boss before he takes me down.  Now I'd have to respec my character in order to find a new sort of build to keep him viable, but looking at what I have, I seriously doubt that he's salvagable this time.  I could handle the taunt nerf because I wasn't really a herder, but with ED, they've totally killed this character.  I can't slot anything else in my damage resists that would otherwise keep me alive and active for myself.  I need a healer full time now to wipe my butt everytime I go into combat.  I don't know what character you've been using, but I've tested this new development with four different archs, and the result is the same - emasculation.  Don't give me this garbage that the impact of ED is negligible, because that's absolute BS.

    But this is water under the bridge now.  I'm through with Cryptic and City of Heroes.  And I guarantee that most of the veterans aren't going to like any of this at all.  The newbies probably won't know the difference, but as someone else here pointed out, it's only a matter of time before players adapt and exploit something else that the dev team didn't pick out, and rather than applaude them, they'll be punished just as we are with ED.  After every issue, we have to respec, and nobody likes to adjust their characters because some cry-baby developers had a fit that the players were beating up their precious archvillains singlehandedly.  It would be worth far more if they simply made the enemy harder, smarter, and make the missions in such a way as to allow for the bad guys to escape, if possible; but noooo, that would be too hard.  Much easier to castrate the players and force them to huddle together for simple survival let along success.  On the CoV beta, I never saw so many requests for teams; it reminded me of a little league baseball gathering where the all the league's teams scrambled for new players.  That was glaringly obvious to me that the intentions of the developers had managed some amount of success. 

    I ask you, does this make you feel Superheroic?  Groveling for a teammate just to tackle a Boss or an orange enemy?   The game, really, was largely just fine and if they left things the way they were before I5 things would be very different.  There is absolutely no justification for ED.  None at all, except that they want to foster greater interdependence (Statesman's own words!!!).  The best thing they could've done if they wanted to spur greater diversity in Enhancements was to make secondary effects truly effective.  If they made the electrical powers endurance draining effects worth a damn, I could see electrical blasters slot Endurance Drains on their powers, for instance.  But, you see, that's what we call thinking, and that's something the CoH developers have a hard time doing.  They do see the players as enemies to be controled, cajoled, and humiliated.  But I, and my friends, do not have to suffer through their crap anymore.  We're gone!  And I hope many of you will do likewise. 

  • MotorheadMotorhead Member UncommonPosts: 1,193



    Originally posted by Wayfinder

    Already, hundreds of people have declared that they're canceling their accounts on the forums.  And if Cryptic doesn't listen to what the players have to say, they may never be able to recover from the sudden drop in subscriptions.  I predict that people will play City of Villains and keep them afloat for awhile, but I'm giving them up to a year before they fold. 



    That's funny.  When I was logged in this weekend, it was packed as usual.   Maybe your supergroup quit because they just weren't very good at the game....

    But go ahead, predict away.  I'll come back to this thread in a year to see how right you were ...

    Okay, now here's the part where you click reply and call me a fanboi.   Just wanted to give you a little help in case you had trouble figuring it out.


     

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  • grapevinegrapevine Member UncommonPosts: 1,927

    Although I'm a not happy that its occurring or that what is in i6 is not what was initially released as to what ED would be (i.e. 4th slot was supposed to be moderate, not major). 

    I've play tested the ED both in CoV beta (some hero ATs and all villain ATs, up to level 25) and on CoH's test server (level 50 fire/energy blaster and a level 39 warshade).  Overall does it make a major difference to game play, no.  In fact for the early game it makes it more fun.  Combat prior to SOs and stamina has a lot less downtime, with endurance costs being less.  On my two (from live CoH) characters, which I tried it on, I actually enjoyed the diversity it enforced for slotting powers.  Moving more to the dps from pure raw damage per shot fleshed out both my characters, alongside making it more involved and to my surprise even more like a superhero.  What I didn't like was how it affected defenses.  My Warshade's dwarf form, while still usable now makes me wonder if its really worth taking in preference of an additional human form power.   Personally this area is what needs addressing, everything else I'm fine with.  Hopfully they will increase base defences to compensate for the ED.

  • grapevinegrapevine Member UncommonPosts: 1,927



    Originally posted by Motorhead



    Originally posted by Wayfinder

    Already, hundreds of people have declared that they're canceling their accounts on the forums.  And if Cryptic doesn't listen to what the players have to say, they may never be able to recover from the sudden drop in subscriptions.  I predict that people will play City of Villains and keep them afloat for awhile, but I'm giving them up to a year before they fold. 


    That's funny.  When I was logged in this weekend, it was packed as usual.   Maybe your supergroup quit because they just weren't very good at the game....

    But go ahead, predict away.  I'll come back to this thread in a year to see how right you were ...

    Okay, now here's the part where you click reply and call me a fanboi.   Just wanted to give you a little help in case you had trouble figuring it out.


     


    I agree.  While I've seen many people complaining about ED, I've not seen these mass exodus posts.  Maybe I've just somehow missed them, don't know.

    He is however right that there will most likely be a heavy swing over to CoV, just not for the reason he's stating.  Its simply the new toy.

  • WeppsWepps Member Posts: 1,322

    The problem here grape is they have been consistently nerfing since it started. There reaches a point where the players view it as one giant nerf, and they renig.

    They nerfed the game, and 10s of people complained. They nerfed it again, and dozens complained. They nerfed it again, hundreds complained, and now it's up into the thousands. There is only so much negative change, and there is only so many respecs a player has to go through before they finally snap.

    And there is only so much a game can take before it self-destructs.

    A game has only so much content, and City of Heroes was missing that from day one. Continually nerfing it will only serve to remove what fun content remains.

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  • grapevinegrapevine Member UncommonPosts: 1,927

    Yeah, I know and agree that having to respec every issue is out of hand.

    I do think there is a general over reaction to ED though, as from what I've experience it fleshes out characters, increases the reaction times needed during combat (i.e. even more involved) and fixes the boring downtime that was in the early levels.  ED also moves the combat away from the traditional slotting profiles (i.e. max damage per shot) into a high dps arena.  Which seems to highten the superhero feel (at least for me).

    Although after saying that, defenses are a real issue.  So those ATs depending on it have been affected and are right in complaining.  Defenses definitely need a boost to compensate.  Hopfully this will be addressed before it is pushed live this week.

    Personally I don't see ED being a real serious issue to the lasting appeal of the CoH/CoV environment as people will be playing with their new toy next week (CoV).  Once they are back to playing their heroes they will have gotten used to the ED.  CoV had ED bolted on (not that long ago) just like CoH will, so it wasn't built around it.  The difference is that in CoH people have to yet again adjust, while in CoV they are starting afresh.  I'd say having to make the adjustment is where most people have their real complaints and its a legitimate one.

  • LackeyZeroLackeyZero Member Posts: 640

    True purpose of ED, it's not really "Enhancement Diversification"... It's really "Power Diversification"...2ndary effects of powers weren't being used when ppl could just 6 slot powers with damage enhancements...Electric,assault rifle, ice,etc were just too the same...So now ED is supposed to make powers varies more when more players try slotting in for those 2ndary effects like def debuff, slowdown, etc... Statesman said that in one of his threads too...

    As for reasons on nerfs over powering everyone up...I'm not going to explains the entire thing...Lets just say there wouldn't be as much room for the game's advancement...

  • AnofalyeAnofalye Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 7,433



    Originally posted by Shayde

    You know I haven't seen ONE thing that you could solo before unsoloable now. The power difference is negligable.
    You may have to pop a heal on yourself now. BFD.




    You must be talking on the most recent nerf only.  I am above focusing on 1 single patch right now.  Battle Maiden (an Arch Villain) was a solo target back then.  You can't solo any AV now for many patchs.  This is a mistake they did, not to design it that way, but to nerf it.  Once you give, you need to think twice before removing(especially when soloers have little and nothing was ever added in the game for them), and sorry, they didn't think twice, they take the path of the lazy.

     

    In fact, I6 and I5 are laughing joke for me, yes they are bad.  Point concede, but they are nothing compare to I2, I3 and I4.  (I start playing after I1 was implemented for a long time, so I cant comment on I1)

    - "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren

  • RavenspireRavenspire Member Posts: 6


    Originally posted by LordDarkmist
    True purpose of ED, it's not really "Enhancement Diversification"... It's really "Power Diversification"...2ndary effects of powers weren't being used when ppl could just 6 slot powers with damage enhancements...Electric,assault rifle, ice,etc were just too the same...So now ED is supposed to make powers varies more when more players try slotting in for those 2ndary effects like def debuff, slowdown, etc... Statesman said that in one of his threads too...

    That may be, but the real problem with that is that, a handful of powers aside, the secondary effect simply isn't worth slotting for. Increasing a 5% defense debuff that lasts for 4 seconds to a 10% defense debuff that lasts for 4 seconds is a pretty poor use of three slots.

    All ED does is change the optimal slotting. Instead of 1 accuracy/5 damage + Hasten, it'll be 1 accuracy/3 damage/1 endurance reduction/1 recharge reduction + Hasten when it's up. The math's already been done.

    (Okay, technically, 1 accuracy/3 damage/2 recharge is even better in terms of damage output, but only very slightly, and the endurance costs go up enough that the above slotting is a net benefit.)

  • grapevinegrapevine Member UncommonPosts: 1,927

    I have yet to see a post by anyone on here that says the CoH servers are packed.

    However trying to state the servers are empty is a complete lie.   It is a fact that popualtion has remained  fairly static for over a year.  Its the end of beta event in CoV, as I type this and three beta servers are packed because of it.  Yet still on CoH my server (Justice), has 750 people on it.  Usually (taking CoV beta out of the equation) its between 1.3 - 1.7k, depending on the night of the week.  Kindly link all these posts you claim about the server being low?  As they are certainly hard to find.

    You are right in saying people are playing CoV, but guess what its the "new toy" and when it goes live its on the same servers as CoH.  Its like horde and allaince in WoW, just two different fractions.  Population is going to rocket next week.

  • grapevinegrapevine Member UncommonPosts: 1,927
    And yet again, you don't read a post correctly.  Way to go, totally ignore that tonight a huge event for CoV (end of beta).  Everyone who pre-ordered and everyone who was in beta are playing that.  There are 4.5k alone (and growing) on the CoV server I just left to head off to bed (EU) with the other two showing the same loading on the login screen.  Regardless of that Justice is at half population.  Also before you start fabricating and ignoring content of posts CoV and CoH are one game.  Good and Evil, played on the same servers.  Their PvE content is kept sperate, while their PvP isn't.  So nobody is dropping CoH in favour of CoV, they are simply playing an evil character because its new.
  • grapevinegrapevine Member UncommonPosts: 1,927



    Originally posted by jdun1

    You can't cover your track.




    What tracks?  You're the one who took one sentance and stated it out of context and tried to make out that it was the norm.  

    I guess those 13.5K (at the time) playing the CoV end of beta event don't exist and wouldn't normally be divided amongst the 11 live servers. image

  • TshoberTshober Member Posts: 24

    I don't know if it is the beginning of the end, but it definitely is the end for me. You can defend them if you like, but I am sick of lies, nerfs, and respecs. The CoH devs have treated the game that I have been paying to play for over a year like it is still in alpha test. And then to be hit with the ED nerf after we were promised they were done balancing the powers was just the last straw. I have cancelled my two CoH accounts that I have had since I1 and I don't plan to play CoV either.

  • baffbaff Member Posts: 9,457



    Originally posted by grapevine

    Yeah, I know and agree that having to respec every issue is out of hand.
    I do think there is a general over reaction to ED though, ......




    I agree. I thought that about the I4 nerfs too. (Although I didn't like them)

    The trouble is it doesn't come as an individual nerf, but rather as part of a pattern of systematic nerfs.

    The reaction to this nerf, quite simply, is not being taken in isolation of all the other nerfs, because it is not an isolated nerf.

     

    In this gamers opinion the overall priority behind any and all nerfs is to lower the speed at which players hit level 50 and finish the game content. The more the subscriptions fall, the longer the company needs existing players to stay, the further they must stretch the same content.

    It's a viscious cycle the more the players leave the more they must nerf those who remain. The more the nerf the remaining players the more leave.

    COV, while skillfully marketed as a standalone, is simply an expansion pack. Boxes on shelves is a great way to get more reviews and sales. It should refresh the playerbase for a while. On the size of COV's content, depends the length of time before the nerfing begins again.

    With regards to player numbers, during trial trials the servers seem populated, at least in prime time. Outside of free trials and prime time finding an 8 man team doesn't happen. Maybe 8 men in an area is more like it. And yes the same people who tell me black is white also tell me their servers are full and it's just me. To them I suggest they do I what I do.

    Park one hero in Atlas Park and another at Portal Park and type /whaoll with each. Repeat this hourly throughout the day and night (I monitor from Midday to 6.am), make a note (mental or physical) of the numbers of players in each of the two most populace zones.

    It is very tiring to listen to people who perhaps play only at primetime in the same group of 8 people down the same instance tell me the servers are all busy or subscriptions are all up. We all know there are endless free trials and COV promotions. We all know the retail price of COH has fallen to bargain basement a long time ago. These are not symptoms of a game in demand.

     

    With reagrds to Grapevines excellent comments about making adjustments, I agree wholeheartedly, in about the thousands of hours I have played my Superhero I have used respec only once. I have tried to compensate the endless litany of regen nerfs by finding more and better enhancements within the game. I have numerous powers with 4 or more of the same enhancer. Almost every one of those is a lvl 53 too. Again this represents a massive investment of time and effort, simply to try and keep my hero contempory let alone advance his powers. Respec while a great reward amd a useful tool for min maxxers and Pvp'ers does not match with my personal visions of role play.

     

    (Are we to assume that lvl 53 enhances will be swappable for whatever others they add in?  I doubt it. They will give me the same single finger they gave me at tech support for the TF badges which now register I didn't do them all after I5.)

    In fairness my superhero had already become unplayable in >lvl 30 missions anyway after I5. Any reduction to it's already crippled defenses will only futher reduce the level of mission at which he can effectively operate.

     

    Good thread this one. Read so many comments and analysis that I agree with.

This discussion has been closed.