Yes if it's an MMO and not a FPS then ya need FF off to prevent intentional TK.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
How awesome would it be if there wasn't necessarily a perfect stealth class in this game (which, really, makes no sense that if you're two feet away from me you're somehow invisible), but instead some sort of subterfuge or spy ability that allowed you to apply a kit that would make you look like another race. There would have to be some sort of limitations on it (such as a chance for each enemy that seems you to uncover your deception and make you attackable, or the ability to construct guard towers or some such that reveal the covert action), but it would be a lot of fun to sneak a few guys into an enemy camp, group or fort, and then when an attack is launched, have them attack from within the enemy.
How can you use the argument "makes no sense that you're two feet away from me you're somehow invisible" about an issue in a game where it's okay to shoot fire balls at people That argument makes no sense, you're in a world with magic... Stealth makes perfect sense in that world
I won't completely disagree with CD but I can say for certain that the current implementations of CD in MMO's is not positive in any way.
How wonderfully inconsistent of of you!
Not positive in any way? But you don't disagree with implementing CD in MMO's?
Most people who make a distinction between the use of collision detection between players and the procliviries of particular game engines in which they are used; observe that all of CD's supposed problems are not actually caused by CD, but by the limitations of the game engine and hardware.
It's seems an obvious point, but one that gets utterly ignored.
Not being able to walk through an object isn't a bug, it's a feature.
Not being able to walk through an object because said object hasn't been rendered properly so you can't tell it's there and CD treats it as real and blocks you: That is a bug and a flaw in the game engine.
Hey man, what's up? Still promoting false information about why CD going to actually be a good idea for CU?
Umm, that's the topic of this thread and I don't change my position or principles based on popularity contests. Even so, it appears far more prospective CU players support collision detection implementation, so I don't expect the topic will disappear anytime soon.
Those who tread with ill intent Beneath our sacred firmament, Whether of Hammer or of Tree, Albion's might shall strike at thee!
I won't completely disagree with CD but I can say for certain that the current implementations of CD in MMO's is not positive in any way.
How wonderfully inconsistent of of you!
Not positive in any way? But you don't disagree with implementing CD in MMO's?
Most people who make a distinction between the use of collision detection between players and the procliviries of particular game engines in which they are used; observe that all of CD's supposed problems are not actually caused by CD, but by the limitations of the game engine and hardware.
It's seems an obvious point, but one that gets utterly ignored.
Not being able to walk through an object isn't a bug, it's a feature.
Not being able to walk through an object because said object hasn't been rendered properly so you can't tell it's there and CD treats it as real and blocks you: That is a bug and a flaw in the game engine.
Hey man, what's up? Still promoting false information about why CD going to actually be a good idea for CU?
Umm, that's the topic of this thread and I don't change my position or principles based on popularity contests. Even so, it appears far more prospective CU players support collision detection implementation, so I don't expect the topic will disappear anytime soon.
I don't expect you to change your position, you need to have your own opinion... All I want is you to stop lying about why CD is the only strategic method of game combat. it's a game, not real life... remember that!
After reading all 22 pages of this topic something is bugging me. I saw the "friendly CD off/enemy CD on" option mentionned but quickly discarded. Then i see an argument about CD being more realistic.
But isn't friendly CD off while limited enemy CD on more realistic? When you get by somebody you know in a narrow space, you don't both square your shoulders and block each other way. On the other hand, if somebody want to hold you then it'll be harder to get by, but not impossible, unless it is a really narrow hallway. That would bypass the main "blocked inside the zerg" concern while still keeping the tactical point.
Following that line of thought, a caster going by a friendly tank that block the enemy chasing after him is normal, isn't it? The tanks should then get an ability to effectively block the enemy, while colliding with other enemies (or an unaware tank) only slows you down and have a chance to interrupt casters.
Concerning using choke points, why doing a wall of shield? There is already a door to hold the enemy, why not design the keep so that defenders can effectively defend it? The tanks can help by holding the door from the inside and increasing the destruction percentage needed to open it, push the climbers over the wall into the stave to keep them from reaching the casters, or operate the siege weapons. The other side tanks are operating the ram, climbing with ladder on the wall, or operating other siege weapons.
The fact of having a lot of enemies concentrated on one point isn't really an issue : use AoE doing high damage over small area coupled with a short lasting AoE stun and the problem will solve itself, unless the zerg is suicidal. You can still implement CD to avoid having that in a safe area, but i don't see the point of making realistic just for being realistic. It's still a game, the goal is to add tactics and strategy, not to complicate our life for nothing.
I hope to have helped on this subject, and apologize if i forgot something ^^'
After reading all 22 pages of this topic something is bugging me. I saw the "friendly CD off/enemy CD on" option mentionned but quickly discarded. Then i see an argument about CD being more realistic.
But isn't friendly CD off while limited enemy CD on more realistic? When you get by somebody you know in a narrow space, you don't both square your shoulders and block each other way. On the other hand, if somebody want to hold you then it'll be harder to get by, but not impossible, unless it is a really narrow hallway. That would bypass the main "blocked inside the zerg" concern while still keeping the tactical point.
Following that line of thought, a caster going by a friendly tank that block the enemy chasing after him is normal, isn't it? The tanks should then get an ability to effectively block the enemy, while colliding with other enemies (or an unaware tank) only slows you down and have a chance to interrupt casters.
Concerning using choke points, why doing a wall of shield? There is already a door to hold the enemy, why not design the keep so that defenders can effectively defend it? The tanks can help by holding the door from the inside and increasing the destruction percentage needed to open it, push the climbers over the wall into the stave to keep them from reaching the casters, or operate the siege weapons. The other side tanks are operating the ram, climbing with ladder on the wall, or operating other siege weapons.
The fact of having a lot of enemies concentrated on one point isn't really an issue : use AoE doing high damage over small area coupled with a short lasting AoE stun and the problem will solve itself, unless the zerg is suicidal. You can still implement CD to avoid having that in a safe area, but i don't see the point of making realistic just for being realistic. It's still a game, the goal is to add tactics and strategy, not to complicate our life for nothing.
I hope to have helped on this subject, and apologize if i forgot something ^^'
Zift Ylrhavic Resfear
The worst thing a game can do is impliment a system that doesn't provide a better gameplay, just because its more realistic.
The only reason people complain about no CD is because it's an easy excuse as per why someone ran up to them through some allies and killed them. There should be consequences for not being good at a game, shouldn't be able to sit and free cast for a hour because you got 5 tanks blocking a door.
A majority of the tactics for taking daoc keeps wtih 100 v 100 battles was rushing the Lord room with gtaoe. Those fights were so fun to be a part of and not possible like it was done in daoc with CD, they would have taken 10 hours to take a keep and it would have got boring.
I'm not that good at understanding other peoples but it seems like you agreed with me, or didn't get my point and said it another way^^
i am indeed against adding things to the game just to be more realistic, and that door blocking wall of tanks shouldn't be used.
In my post, i talked about how a tank should be able to hold someone down and keep him from going through him. You obviously can't stop several people that way; that's why i said it should be an ability, i was implying you need a target. It would increase the importance of tanks in an open field battle.
Once the door is down, the advantage given by the keep is greatly reduced, so i gave a few ideas to use tanks in keep defense/attack, and not just have them sit down and wait.
I would like to see it implemented atleast in the alpha stages. Let the backers playtest it and see if it would add/deter from gameplay. One of the reasons I have backed this game is MJ/CSE's vision of expanding on the mchanics and gameplay of the MMO genre which has become boring to all of us, and also the fact that if it doesnt help gameplay the guts to scrap it. I think with the different types of CD availible it could have an interesting role, or who know's maybe as a class ability that is availible only to tanks. I'm not a big fan of global CD between all characters but if done right it could have a place. imho.
Originally posted by hawkryl I would like to see it implemented atleast in the alpha stages. Let the backers playtest it and see if it would add/deter from gameplay. One of the reasons I have backed this game is MJ/CSE's vision of expanding on the mchanics and gameplay of the MMO genre which has become boring to all of us, and also the fact that if it doesnt help gameplay the guts to scrap it. I think with the different types of CD availible it could have an interesting role, or who know's maybe as a class ability that is availible only to tanks. I'm not a big fan of global CD between all characters but if done right it could have a place. imho.
That's a good idea. Let's wait until we get to the backers' forum to talk about it again too, so we will be sure it will reach the team and we won't have to say it all again^^
I prefer collision but a lighter version of it where griefing is lessened. Some games did this very well by having a slight push affect that doesn't actually move you out of your spot (to avoid pushing off cliffs, etc) but allows the other person to partially occupy the same space and get through doors and what not. If more than one player blocks an area it still stops a single player from moving past.
I love collision for realism but there is always some asshat who has to exploit it and get their kicks by blocking doorways/entrances/vendors for hours on end. This was minimized greatly in games that had collision as mentioned above.
My vote is for a more passive/soft collision and not a hard/push collision that is typically wracked with potential exploits.
CD has good use in many games. However, not in MMO's.
When it comes to an MMO you just need to ask 'Why is it necessary?' Sure its a kool concept to body block choke points and protect healers, but tbh those things can be solved with other simpler mechanics that cant be EXPLOITED like CD. I for one am shocked that a low budget team is even considering it when games with huge budgets have failed simply b/c of CD.
Unrealistic problems of CD in games:
1. Watching your character jitter/jump all over the place b/c hes bouncing off invisible player/character walls that are larger than characters and grow EVEN larger when lag comes into play. Lag effects CD the worst. Thats why its good for SP and bad for MMO.
2a. As a meele character your own CD ruins you more than an enemies. Never in any game has CD responded well to running/high speed when coliding with a pebble in the environments ground. 2015 will be no different even though we want it to be.
2b. CD basically acts as a very small push back. Now relate this to trying to keep your char in meele swing range and think of other games with CD. Running/sticking etc. trying to latch onto your enemy. You have 2 opposing push backs basically trying to keep you from interacting. Who can think of a game that has ever had fluid CD 1v1 meele? Where you dont have to reset movement from being fake stuck on nothing, not missing blows from being out of range. I've played many - frustrated with all. Now add in one more enemy, maybe a couple more. Now add in a zerg in the backround. Now add in lag of 100 people in clip distance. Now add in your hardware/conn, your enemies and the servers.
Any game with even moderate stress has proven CD's failures. This game will have well above moderate stress most likely alot of the time.
3. Exploiting CD. Doesn't matter what faction you are, we've all seen games with 2 guys standing in a doorway blocking hundreds from getting by. Players of there own realm most of the time.
4. Adding stress on the server. When you talk about having a game where theres going to be epic battles, how often do you want your server to crash b/c it cant handle it? CD is just one more thing to eat up a servers resources. An unneeded one.
I'm sure theres a few other more technical reasons to not have CD in an MMO, but these are my main issues with it. I'm not a CD hater, but CD has its place and it is sadly not at the level where its ready for MMO's.
An ability like guard will take care of your healers. Why bring CD in and ruin your game when one simple ability has been proven to work?
They could do it like FF11 where you initially bump into something and stop for about 1 second then you push through it. That way you would have a bump of defence time as the zerg tried to push through the defenders.
I don't want to see full-on collision detection when we are talking about hundreds of players on the field at once. Ever been to Disneyland on a major holiday?
How about giving tanks an ability to physically block an enemy's advance? Like an ability that lasts for about 10 seconds and has a cooldown of 20-30 seconds or something. That way they would need to think strategically on when to use it.
My opinion has already been stated but I'll rehash it again in support of others sharing it.
I vote yes on CD if it doesn't hurt gameplay by increasing lag and it's side effects. I also would like to see a system that doesn't allow players to grief others by standing in a doorway, or blocking some other chokepoints making it so that players are unable to move at all.
This isn't really a deal breaker one way or the other for me though and I'll enjoy whichever way CSE chooses. Especially since my main will be a crafter
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
Strike me as one of the not playing if they Dont Have Collision Detection. It was OK not having it back in the day with daoc. But once youve played combat with it, like in war and planetside, going to a game without it like wow or rift, the stupid bloody bunny hopping macro spammers get right on your nerves
are your other 5000 posts as well written as this one?
So genius, explain WHY combat is better without CD. Explain why spamming backstab macros while you spin around jumping like a fucking idiot is "skill"
I need to save this one...
"So genius, explain WHY combat is better without CD. Explain why spamming backstab macros while you spin around jumping like a fucking idiot is "skill"
I want to save this to my awesome quote list Thanks!
I don't like collision detection in my games personally.
And in massive 1000 player battles, its going to be even worse than normal.
It will end up just being a massive wall of players smashed against eachother, unable to move at all. Melee in the front, hopefully...
Classes like rogues will be completely useless, in big wars.
I know you guys want to block off gates and such by massing 500 players in front of it, but in reality that will make the game really bad. If they try to run through yoru group they're goign to die anyway obviously.
DAoC had no CD, it was a good game.
Warhammer had CD, it was a bad game.
CD just leads to frustration, people standing, surrounded by 100 other players, yelling for them to move out of the way. Griefers will do things like block off mines, just to be idiots.
I don't want to see full-on collision detection when we are talking about hundreds of players on the field at once. Ever been to Disneyland on a major holiday?
How about giving tanks an ability to physically block an enemy's advance? Like an ability that lasts for about 10 seconds and has a cooldown of 20-30 seconds or something. That way they would need to think strategically on when to use it.
Stun,root,snare,mezz........grapple.......how much more you want.....
all of these have less problems than CD
if CD is in game healers/heals will need to be toned down greatly
Originally I thought CD would be a great thing, till I played WAR. Without it, DAoC is far more chaotic and that isn't a bad thing IMO as it lets the combat flow. Without CD, roots and CC become a requirement to defend which is countered by tank's hard interupts and of course ability/spell based CC negation. All in all, I have a great time in DAoC while my WAR box set sits gathering dust and I don't even have WAR installed on any system.
I would want to second the though of allowing the Founders have direct testing of both CD and without CD and gather the data before CSE makes a final call on the matter. I want what is best for CU, and CD is dicey if it's not done perfectly for that given game as WAR has demonstrated.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall. Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
Comments
You can't have FF in a MMO, turns into a griefing fest and a Free For All type RVR.
So that will never happen.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Tho I would pay an addition $15 a month to beable to kill a realm mate once a week.....
Yes if it's an MMO and not a FPS then ya need FF off to prevent intentional TK.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
That argument makes no sense, you're in a world with magic... Stealth makes perfect sense in that world
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Umm, that's the topic of this thread and I don't change my position or principles based on popularity contests. Even so, it appears far more prospective CU players support collision detection implementation, so I don't expect the topic will disappear anytime soon.
Those who tread with ill intent
Beneath our sacred firmament,
Whether of Hammer or of Tree,
Albion's might shall strike at thee!
I don't expect you to change your position, you need to have your own opinion... All I want is you to stop lying about why CD is the only strategic method of game combat. it's a game, not real life... remember that!
That is all.
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
Hi there,
After reading all 22 pages of this topic something is bugging me. I saw the "friendly CD off/enemy CD on" option mentionned but quickly discarded. Then i see an argument about CD being more realistic.
But isn't friendly CD off while limited enemy CD on more realistic? When you get by somebody you know in a narrow space, you don't both square your shoulders and block each other way. On the other hand, if somebody want to hold you then it'll be harder to get by, but not impossible, unless it is a really narrow hallway. That would bypass the main "blocked inside the zerg" concern while still keeping the tactical point.
Following that line of thought, a caster going by a friendly tank that block the enemy chasing after him is normal, isn't it? The tanks should then get an ability to effectively block the enemy, while colliding with other enemies (or an unaware tank) only slows you down and have a chance to interrupt casters.
Concerning using choke points, why doing a wall of shield? There is already a door to hold the enemy, why not design the keep so that defenders can effectively defend it? The tanks can help by holding the door from the inside and increasing the destruction percentage needed to open it, push the climbers over the wall into the stave to keep them from reaching the casters, or operate the siege weapons. The other side tanks are operating the ram, climbing with ladder on the wall, or operating other siege weapons.
The fact of having a lot of enemies concentrated on one point isn't really an issue : use AoE doing high damage over small area coupled with a short lasting AoE stun and the problem will solve itself, unless the zerg is suicidal. You can still implement CD to avoid having that in a safe area, but i don't see the point of making realistic just for being realistic. It's still a game, the goal is to add tactics and strategy, not to complicate our life for nothing.
I hope to have helped on this subject, and apologize if i forgot something ^^'
Zift Ylrhavic Resfear
The worst thing a game can do is impliment a system that doesn't provide a better gameplay, just because its more realistic.
The only reason people complain about no CD is because it's an easy excuse as per why someone ran up to them through some allies and killed them. There should be consequences for not being good at a game, shouldn't be able to sit and free cast for a hour because you got 5 tanks blocking a door.
A majority of the tactics for taking daoc keeps wtih 100 v 100 battles was rushing the Lord room with gtaoe. Those fights were so fun to be a part of and not possible like it was done in daoc with CD, they would have taken 10 hours to take a keep and it would have got boring.
-imo-
Ozek - DAOC
Niix - Other games that sucked
I'm not that good at understanding other peoples but it seems like you agreed with me, or didn't get my point and said it another way^^
i am indeed against adding things to the game just to be more realistic, and that door blocking wall of tanks shouldn't be used.
In my post, i talked about how a tank should be able to hold someone down and keep him from going through him. You obviously can't stop several people that way; that's why i said it should be an ability, i was implying you need a target. It would increase the importance of tanks in an open field battle.
Once the door is down, the advantage given by the keep is greatly reduced, so i gave a few ideas to use tanks in keep defense/attack, and not just have them sit down and wait.
Its very much needed I would say.
Team Fortress 2 has it with the enemy and enemy items. Also good to detect a spy. hehe
The world we know is going away http://www.graystatemovie.com/
Look up Agenda 21 as well.
That's a good idea. Let's wait until we get to the backers' forum to talk about it again too, so we will be sure it will reach the team and we won't have to say it all again^^
I prefer collision but a lighter version of it where griefing is lessened. Some games did this very well by having a slight push affect that doesn't actually move you out of your spot (to avoid pushing off cliffs, etc) but allows the other person to partially occupy the same space and get through doors and what not. If more than one player blocks an area it still stops a single player from moving past.
I love collision for realism but there is always some asshat who has to exploit it and get their kicks by blocking doorways/entrances/vendors for hours on end. This was minimized greatly in games that had collision as mentioned above.
My vote is for a more passive/soft collision and not a hard/push collision that is typically wracked with potential exploits.
You stay sassy!
CD has good use in many games. However, not in MMO's.
When it comes to an MMO you just need to ask 'Why is it necessary?' Sure its a kool concept to body block choke points and protect healers, but tbh those things can be solved with other simpler mechanics that cant be EXPLOITED like CD. I for one am shocked that a low budget team is even considering it when games with huge budgets have failed simply b/c of CD.
Unrealistic problems of CD in games:
1. Watching your character jitter/jump all over the place b/c hes bouncing off invisible player/character walls that are larger than characters and grow EVEN larger when lag comes into play. Lag effects CD the worst. Thats why its good for SP and bad for MMO.
2a. As a meele character your own CD ruins you more than an enemies. Never in any game has CD responded well to running/high speed when coliding with a pebble in the environments ground. 2015 will be no different even though we want it to be.
2b. CD basically acts as a very small push back. Now relate this to trying to keep your char in meele swing range and think of other games with CD. Running/sticking etc. trying to latch onto your enemy. You have 2 opposing push backs basically trying to keep you from interacting. Who can think of a game that has ever had fluid CD 1v1 meele? Where you dont have to reset movement from being fake stuck on nothing, not missing blows from being out of range. I've played many - frustrated with all. Now add in one more enemy, maybe a couple more. Now add in a zerg in the backround. Now add in lag of 100 people in clip distance. Now add in your hardware/conn, your enemies and the servers.
Any game with even moderate stress has proven CD's failures. This game will have well above moderate stress most likely alot of the time.
3. Exploiting CD. Doesn't matter what faction you are, we've all seen games with 2 guys standing in a doorway blocking hundreds from getting by. Players of there own realm most of the time.
4. Adding stress on the server. When you talk about having a game where theres going to be epic battles, how often do you want your server to crash b/c it cant handle it? CD is just one more thing to eat up a servers resources. An unneeded one.
I'm sure theres a few other more technical reasons to not have CD in an MMO, but these are my main issues with it. I'm not a CD hater, but CD has its place and it is sadly not at the level where its ready for MMO's.
An ability like guard will take care of your healers. Why bring CD in and ruin your game when one simple ability has been proven to work?
I don't want to see full-on collision detection when we are talking about hundreds of players on the field at once. Ever been to Disneyland on a major holiday?
How about giving tanks an ability to physically block an enemy's advance? Like an ability that lasts for about 10 seconds and has a cooldown of 20-30 seconds or something. That way they would need to think strategically on when to use it.
My opinion has already been stated but I'll rehash it again in support of others sharing it.
I vote yes on CD if it doesn't hurt gameplay by increasing lag and it's side effects. I also would like to see a system that doesn't allow players to grief others by standing in a doorway, or blocking some other chokepoints making it so that players are unable to move at all.
This isn't really a deal breaker one way or the other for me though and I'll enjoy whichever way CSE chooses. Especially since my main will be a crafter
I healed Mistwraith and all I got was this stupid tee-shirt!
I need to save this one...
"So genius, explain WHY combat is better without CD. Explain why spamming backstab macros while you spin around jumping like a fucking idiot is "skill"
I want to save this to my awesome quote list
Thanks!
Nanulak
I don't like collision detection in my games personally.
And in massive 1000 player battles, its going to be even worse than normal.
It will end up just being a massive wall of players smashed against eachother, unable to move at all. Melee in the front, hopefully...
Classes like rogues will be completely useless, in big wars.
I know you guys want to block off gates and such by massing 500 players in front of it, but in reality that will make the game really bad. If they try to run through yoru group they're goign to die anyway obviously.
DAoC had no CD, it was a good game.
Warhammer had CD, it was a bad game.
CD just leads to frustration, people standing, surrounded by 100 other players, yelling for them to move out of the way. Griefers will do things like block off mines, just to be idiots.
I could list reasons for hours why NOT to add CD.
Stun,root,snare,mezz........grapple.......how much more you want.....
all of these have less problems than CD
if CD is in game healers/heals will need to be toned down greatly
Originally I thought CD would be a great thing, till I played WAR. Without it, DAoC is far more chaotic and that isn't a bad thing IMO as it lets the combat flow. Without CD, roots and CC become a requirement to defend which is countered by tank's hard interupts and of course ability/spell based CC negation. All in all, I have a great time in DAoC while my WAR box set sits gathering dust and I don't even have WAR installed on any system.
I would want to second the though of allowing the Founders have direct testing of both CD and without CD and gather the data before CSE makes a final call on the matter. I want what is best for CU, and CD is dicey if it's not done perfectly for that given game as WAR has demonstrated.
Midranki - To us, Thidranki Faste is not just some center keep, it's our field Guild Hall.
Camelot Unchained's Kickstarter - Warrior Forever
CD worked fine in Darkfall infact it would have been a lot worse without it..
So yeah this game needs CD.