The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

Cephus404 · April 2013

Originally posted by Horusra
Originally posted by Zlayer77
The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun.... And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...

Wish there was a PvE oriented version of Eve for those that do not like Sandbox PvP games.

Same here, although I wouldn't play it unless you could get out of the damn ship.

TheLizardbones · April 2013

Everyone knows there is a market for virtual worlds. I don't think anyone can dispute that there are people who would buy into a virtual world game. Barring my post above, but I wasn't as clear as I could have been. There are just some things that stand in the way of virtual worlds being the standard.

* There are more people in general who just want to play games versus people who just want to visit virtual worlds. There's a bunch of overlap there, but in general there are more game players versus virtual world visitors.

* Virtual worlds are more expensive to produce. A virtual world is more complex than a fairly static game world, and it also has to be capable of responding to players without breaking anything.

* Virtual worlds are a moving target. As technology gets better and as players experience more complex game worlds, their expectations for what makes up a 'virtual world' expands and shifts. For some people a virtual world has to include virtual weather. For others mob migration or life cycles would be a key feature. There's not nearly as much clarity or consensus about what makes up a virtual world compared to the clarity and consensus on what makes up a game.

* The developer still has to write the game elements anyway. If a developer creates a very fleshed out virtual world, there are going to be game elements that have to be written on top of the virtual world elements. The game elements have to take the virtual world mechanics into consideration, making the game elements more complex than they would be if the world was a relatively static world.

It all adds up to a climate where as the projects get more expensive, virtual world features become less desirable over pure game features because the game features will be less expensive to produce, and more likely to make money.

So while virtual worlds would be better, would the difference be enough to cover the additional cost of producing them? Hard to say, but it looks like to me that MMO developers are struggling to develop games that have pretty static virtual worlds being the basis for their games. The developers don't seem to be ready to take on an MMO with a fully fleshed out virtual world, on top of making a fully fleshed out game.

Arclan · April 2013

Originally posted by Zlayer77
The old ways of playing these games are dead. We who liked to play them that way are old... I have been semi retired for years from this genre.. only playing EvE from time to time (EvE is like Florida, where old MMO people go to die). To the OP let the next generation have their games, we are to old we will never understand what they think is fun.... And its not worth trying to figure it out to be honest...

Sorry that the WoW clones being spammed at us have jaded you to this extent. But saying that games should only be marketed towards the next generation is silly. Why sell to one demographic; one which is oversaturated at present; when you can sell to several?

Cuathon · April 2013

Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs
@ Title, I agree. I prefer a VOW (virtual online world) over just an OG (online game)

However I think there should be both. I think there is room for both

I think that name actually won my new acronym thread poll

VOW I mean. But of course no one but a few people bothered to use it. I'm glad other people either independently decided on it or heard of it.

ArChWind · April 2013

IMHO.

To many road blocks and to many issues to iron out in making a true sandbox MOVW.

My ideas were to give the user a world and let them build it out of basic building blocks which they have to harvest the materials and craft into basic items (logs, stone blocks, ore nodes and plants, animals and so on. These exist in the world design) Allow some terraforming of most of the world but have a few set areas which are cities to get some basic questing and basic materials. Make a few rules hard coded in that can’t be broken (such as no PvP except in specific areas or even FFA, no levels, a bunch of skills to choose from). It is all limited only by how much fame one earned. Give just basic mobs to kill for materials and quests) then let other users in to make the rest themselves. Write their own quests from the existing history and lore, make their own dungeons and special monsters, even make their own lore and run their own factions. Give the users the tools in in the system to do it themselves.

It turned into something I didn’t foresee because many can’t seem to get past the ideas of a game design and the issues of one guy building such a world was never going to happen. Especially one guy that does not have the time or money.

No engine exist at this time that can allow the tools to be made directly into the game design BUT it is possible. It just requires a good coder. The technology is here today.

Maybe someone someday will do it.

Jemcrystal · April 2013

Originally posted by mmoguy43
I don't want plain virtual worlds.

I don't want plain games either, not for the ideal MMORPG anyway.

I want a game within a virtual world. Something like Skyrim and it doesn't even have to have a massive amount of players in a zone.

Basically...Fun game, lots of variety and options. And a world that brings a lot of longevity and content that doesn't get old in the first play through nor is the progression short with the level cap the raiding/grinding end.

Agree. More variety especially. Why must there be only one way to play. Zones exist. Can't they try different styles in different zones rather than making the entire game same-o same-o?

tixylix · April 2013

They need to use engines like UE or CryEngine where they can easily port their game onto the latest build, it would be a lot easier than making their own engine which would take so many resources to create a new version. I mean CCP are lucky because their assets are easy to update, most games aren't lucky to be basically an avatar with a picture background.

MMOExposed · April 2013

OP explain how anything you argued for, is a trait of VW.

Lesser looting? How is that a VW trait? How is that good?

Nerfmeh · April 2013

I really dont think that we can get that old magic feeling we had with games like UO , EQ even with WoW only by going back to the old roots. MMO's need to evolve...but the thing is they are doing it in the WRONG way and are not catering to us ( the mmorpg genre fans). MMO's arent even loyal to their genre name nowadays since 90% of them dont even have the MMO part...its sad really -_-

TheJoda · April 2013

Originally posted by FromHell
Fear not...

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

^ sucks waiting =( I agree though and cant wait!

Cephus404 · April 2013

Originally posted by TheJoda
Originally posted by FromHell
Fear not...

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

^ sucks waiting =( I agree though and cant wait!

And when those come out, the "virtual world" fans will declare them all spectacular failures, just like they've done with every single other game they have looked forward to, and continue to whine about how unfair it is that nobody makes games for them.

Sephiroso · April 2013

Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by TheJoda
Originally posted by FromHell
Fear not...

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

^ sucks waiting =( I agree though and cant wait!

And when those come out, the "virtual world" fans will declare them all spectacular failures, just like they've done with every single other game they have looked forward to, and continue to whine about how unfair it is that nobody makes games for them.

in defense of the so called fans as you call them, pretty much every single game that -has- come out recently ended up being spectacular failures. so its not the fans fault for calling bullshit on bullshit.

Lovely_Laly · April 2013

OP, as far as I can see, VW w/o any game calls Second Life.

but no thanks to go there....

RemyVorender · April 2013

It's starting to swing back. Give it a few years.

itchmon · April 2013

i think most people actually want a situation where the two types of game blend together, with *maybe* for mmo gamers, a nudge towards the V.W. to appeal to the "explorer" gamertype that so many of us are, at least partially. I also think that game developers kind of inherently "got" that at first. Then WoW came out and "wowed" (sorry!) folks with a game that was more game than a V.W. however it also had enormous production value and other intangibles. it brought other people that weren't into the older games which had a much more difficult entry barrier (anyone else remember your first days in ff11 not having any real idea what to do?). WoW was a great game but it wasnt a world, not in the sense that some of the older games were.

game companies then saw that WoW revenue was quite frankly insane and thought it would be best to engineer more games like wow. they didnt understand that the people who like to play Wow-like "game-like" MMOs were already happily playing Wow. hence the age of the underperforming themepark MMOs.

now players of the two styles are coming together. people who grew up on wow have been listening to veterans' "EQ stories" and "Eve stories" for god knows howmany years and they are more willing to step out of the comfort area and try a more V.W. type game without leaving 100% of the trappings of a "themepark" game behind.

lets hope the age of the "hybrid" will bring some great new IPs and some outstanding twists on some of the older IPs.

thx for reading

itch

nariusseldon · April 2013

Originally posted by Raithe-Nor
Originally posted by nariusseldon
This again? MMO is not "supposed" to be anything. They are just entertainment products evolving according to market forces. No more and no less.

And what failed? WOW? GW2? LOL? WoT? ... it looks like lots of online MMO-like games are successful lately. Why do you think there is more and more investment in MOBA?

Sorry, but you are wrong. There was, originally, a purpose to putting hundreds to thousands of people in the same gameplay environment - simultaneously. That purpose was societal/cultural in nature - mostly revolving around role-playing.

Who cares about what its "original" purpose is? It is all about if the market is responding. Genre changes. Design changes. If you don't like where it is going, just call it something else. Personally i care less if a game is MMO, or MOG, or whatever, if it is fun.

If "social" and "cultural" is so important, why would MOBA becomes so successful? WHy would e-sport become so successful?

MMO is just adapting, and i doubt many people play worlds, they play games. In fact, the whole topic is a rant that VWs are no longer the focus. Are you claiming otherwise?

eye_m · April 2013

Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by TheJoda
Originally posted by FromHell
Fear not...

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

^ sucks waiting =( I agree though and cant wait!

And when those come out, the "virtual world" fans will declare them all spectacular failures, just like they've done with every single other game they have looked forward to, and continue to whine about how unfair it is that nobody makes games for them.

in defense of the so called fans as you call them, pretty much every single game that -has- come out recently ended up being spectacular failures. so its not the fans fault for calling bullshit on bullshit.

Don't imply it has anything to do with fans. It's the trolls calling bullshit. The fans are playing the games, learning to adjust into a new games mechanics, while the trolls are sitting on the forums wondering why there isn't a game designed special for them and saying everything is a failure.

Cephus404 · April 2013

Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by TheJoda
Originally posted by FromHell
Fear not...

EQ Next

Star Citizen

World of Darkness (also by CCP)

Elite Dangerous

Archeage

those five "virtual world "titles alone will probably keep many people busy for at least a decade

^ sucks waiting =( I agree though and cant wait!

And when those come out, the "virtual world" fans will declare them all spectacular failures, just like they've done with every single other game they have looked forward to, and continue to whine about how unfair it is that nobody makes games for them.

in defense of the so called fans as you call them, pretty much every single game that -has- come out recently ended up being spectacular failures. so its not the fans fault for calling bullshit on bullshit.

You miss the point, no matter what game is going to be the salvation of the MMO world, and this comes up all the bloody time, when the game is actually released, the same people who were jumping up and down in excitement declare it to be a huge disappointment and announce another game, somewhere down the line, is the new MMO savior. It's a never-ending process because they will never be happy with anything.

DSWBeef · April 2013

I have to agree. I play mmos and RPGS in particular to dive into a world just like someone would dive into a book. I wanna immerse myself into a world. Not be constantly reminded that this is a game. Swtor leveling got it somewhat right with the VO. But once you hit 50 the story VANISHED. I didnt feel like I was in a world I felt like I was at a job, grinding gear in heroics and broken raids.

Arclan · April 2013

Originally posted by Cephus404
And when those come out, the "virtual world" fans will declare them all spectacular failures, just like they've done with every single other game they have looked forward to, and continue to whine about how unfair it is that nobody makes games for them.

I think most VW fans aren't jumping up and down for any upcoming release. The industry seems intent on churning out junk as long as it advances their goal of making P2W increasingly acceptable. At best we will be pleasantly surprised if a game comes out that isn't junk.

nariusseldon · April 2013

Originally posted by DSWBeef
I have to agree. I play mmos and RPGS in particular to dive into a world just like someone would dive into a book. I wanna immerse myself into a world. Not be constantly reminded that this is a game. Swtor leveling got it somewhat right with the VO. But once you hit 50 the story VANISHED. I didnt feel like I was in a world I felt like I was at a job, grinding gear in heroics and broken raids.

You can play til 50 and then move on. No dev has infinite resources to make a story goes on forever.

bliss14 · April 2013

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DSWBeef
I have to agree. I play mmos and RPGS in particular to dive into a world just like someone would dive into a book. I wanna immerse myself into a world. Not be constantly reminded that this is a game. Swtor leveling got it somewhat right with the VO. But once you hit 50 the story VANISHED. I didnt feel like I was in a world I felt like I was at a job, grinding gear in heroics and broken raids.

You can play til 50 and then move on. No dev has infinite resources to make a story goes on forever.

Sandbox is the answer to that. Of course a themepark hits dull spots as the players have to wait to get the updates. A decent population generating player driven content is da bomb.

fivoroth · April 2013

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by tixylix
I remember getting into the genre because I wanted to be a part of an online community. I wanted to explore a world and feel like I was in this living, breathing online world where I could socialise with other people. I used to log in to these early MMOs and just stay logged in even when I was AFK, I felt a sense of place in the world, like it had its own ecology. I used to be scared to venture out in the world which used to be dangerous with heavy loss if you died, it just made exploration so much more fun.

That is you.

I play games, not virtual worlds. I play them for fun. And i remember why these MMO were not fun game. Now they are better games. Good. I approve.

I don't play games where virtual worlds are getting in the way of fun. Given where the market is going, apparently the market agree with me.

I agree with this. I don't play games in order to fulfill my desire for virtual worlds. I want them to be fun. Old MMOs had too many unnecessary time sinks. I can't spend so much time on playing games, let alone only 1 game. I loved vanilla WoW and I agree that a lot of the changes made the game less fun but I don't see why I would need a virtual reality.

Point is this is your opininon that MMOs have to virtual worlds and not games. My opinion is exactly the opposite. I play games, not virtual worlds ...

Cephus404 · April 2013

Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by Cephus404
And when those come out, the "virtual world" fans will declare them all spectacular failures, just like they've done with every single other game they have looked forward to, and continue to whine about how unfair it is that nobody makes games for them.

I think most VW fans aren't jumping up and down for any upcoming release. The industry seems intent on churning out junk as long as it advances their goal of making P2W increasingly acceptable. At best we will be pleasantly surprised if a game comes out that isn't junk.

I'm just going back to the claim that there are 5 games that will keep VW fans busy for a decade and pointing out that it's almost certainly not true, it certainly hasn't been true for any other games that they've been jumping up and down over in the past.

Thorbrand · April 2013

There are games will full persistent worlds out there just no one on MMORPG would play them or want to. They like the fast easy MMOs they can jump from one to the other in a few months time.

This website misses a lot of MMOs that come out today. It is funny how only the casaul MMOs are listed here anymore and none of the true MMOs even get looked at by this site.

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The problem with MMOs these days is developers are making games and not virtual worlds.

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