I like how it was in Asheron's Call. There was no ressing. You had people that could fill you will life with magic, or you could drink potions and use med kits. In a RvR game I understand the idea of rezzing like we had in DAOC. I'd say if there's rez in CU, it should be only out of combat rezz, make you more careful in your fights if you can't just pop right back up, either that or give you rezz sickness if you are rezzed in combat or out.
That could also be interesting. It could also work in tandem with the HHs. If your home is near, maybe it's best to ress there. If not, perhaps the HH if it isn't "on cooldown." (No town should be without one!)
Would give more incentive to build your home closer to the front, if that's a behaviour CSE want to see. It kind of depends on what role(s) personal housing should have in the game.
I really feel like the healing hall concept is too broad. Perhaps the guild hall could replace it but only for members of a certain guild. Even with that I'm hesitant.
I feel like death should really matter. You shouldnt just be ok with dying and respawning repeatedly throughout a fight. That sort of goes along with the idea that I wouldnt want people just instantly dying in a few hits either. If youre near death you should be seriously considering a retreat away from the front lines.
It feels reasonable for the defenders who live behind the walls because they are defending their homes, but everyone else? Killing someone should have an effect on the battlefield for more than a minute or two.
A siege on a large structure should be taking a couple hours anyway to give defenders time to react and get there (otherwise the whole game will just be people ninja stealing undefended castles). You'll have plenty of time to still be involved even if you have to run back.
There'll be respawn points in the game regardless. I just think it would be cooler to have the players make them. But one side effect of that is it makes it harder to control exactly where they are placed. Depending on your POV, that could be good or bad.
Originally posted by Axxar There'll be respawn points in the game regardless. I just think it would be cooler to have the players make them. But one side effect of that is it makes it harder to control exactly where they are placed. Depending on your POV, that could be good or bad.
Thats the point really. Respawning is just such an important thing that there have to be strict limitations on it. Perhaps related to something like the Stabalizers where players can move them around but there would be some limited number of them.
If you have healing halls and just try to control it by how many you can build in a certain area, people will do silly stuff like building a long hallway like castle with a healing hall at the exact minimum distance away from each other they can be.
If you have to come up with a bunch of really complicated rules to make something work, there are probably holes in it and players will find them.
Maybe even rezz immunity for a period of time would be also good
Rezz is just for heal classes available
But rezz should be in despite useless "carebear" comments. We will have zergs and simple groups. A group of 5 players shouldn't end up with waiting 30 minutes for one groupmember who died ... running all the way back to his group. There will be a huge RvR map with a really restricted sort of fast traveling - which is a cool thing. Maybe even taxi only fast travel - who knows.
Edit: After all I think we will have to wait and see how "fast" this game will be. Mark Jacobs mentioned that he wants that keepfights should be hard and long and that you shouldn't be able to take keeps "just like that". In some cases stuff like "rezz" depends on combat and special events (as taking or defending a keep) itself.
What I want to see is the spawn point be a a structure you build in the RVR battle zone. It can be built in an RVR zone using a build plot with the assistance of crafters. When players die, they return to the closest built rez site. if there is none, then there could be a default spawn, but i suggest if this happens, you can spawn back in town. I would make it so crafters need to stay close and actively do something to the structure to keep it running
Exactly the reason for my suggestion. When venturing deep into enemy territory, players who are smart about building these "respawn points" will still have a way to reinforce, and it gives crafters another interesting type of structure to build.
Nice idea. It really adds to the game within the game.
To stop people from building rez points in hotly contested keeps. I would just prevent them working withint a structure that is under attack... Thats not a hard problem to fix.
if the rez point buildable structure ( or healing hall ) is under attack itself, then it does not function either
For what its worth, I think there are a lot of good ways they could handle rezzing and will just wait to see what they come up with. MJs brief outline of thoughts about rezzing seems sound to me.
I think the main thing is that you don't want dieing to be too painful but you also don't want it to be relatively painless.
Problems with relatively painless death: This encourages zerging and dumb play. We have all probably played those games where--because of how death and/or scoring works in them--the optimal play is to run into a giant moshpit of fighting and die 3 seconds later, only to rush into the pit and die again after that ad nauseum. When this happens, you rightly feel frustrated because the game is encouraging you to be a moron and it gets boring quickly. Even if it isn't as bad as all that, you do generally want game mechanics to reward smart play and actual thinking.
Problems with too severe death penalties: It encourages ganking to the exclusion of all else. People only want to commit to a fight if they are twice the level of the other guys and have ten times the troops. When people become so extraordinarily cautious I think the game tends to devolve again into relatively thoughtless play where you just want to outnumber the other guys vastly because any death (esp if permadeath or some BS like that) is just too much and you can't risk it. We have all probably also played this type of game. It tends to be easy to spot because you log in for the very first time (never having played it before) and immediately find yourself dead and some high level person looting your corpse just outside the starter area.
I know there are some who prefer one of the two extremes but I do believe that most of us realize that it is a balancing act and the game has to find that happy medium. Where exactly it is depends a lot on other factors in the game. I am willing to give the CU crew the benefit of the doubt and just see what they come up with.
Rezzing already has the advantage of not having buffs and rezz effects.
As long as there is limited mana and casting interrupts you don't need to shut down recovering mechanics like you do in WoW.
And thats one thing I'd like to avoid, balancing survivability around unrecoverable deaths. I hated that about wow, after you killed 1 person in a group it just snowballed.
If you watch any guild groups in an arena match, as soon as 1 enemy dies you hear congratulations, cause killing 1 player = victory. Might as well play the final fantasy victory music.
That doens't happen in daoc. Just because you've killed someone doesn't mean you can get lazy. Once you down anyone that can rezz THEN the fight is won.
That isn't to say that a death isn't a huge advantage in DAoC, its just something you CAN recover from if you play your cards right.
Originally posted by Axxar There'll be respawn points in the game regardless. I just think it would be cooler to have the players make them. But one side effect of that is it makes it harder to control exactly where they are placed. Depending on your POV, that could be good or bad.
Thats the point really. Respawning is just such an important thing that there have to be strict limitations on it. Perhaps related to something like the Stabalizers where players can move them around but there would be some limited number of them.
If you have healing halls and just try to control it by how many you can build in a certain area, people will do silly stuff like building a long hallway like castle with a healing hall at the exact minimum distance away from each other they can be.
If you have to come up with a bunch of really complicated rules to make something work, there are probably holes in it and players will find them.
A simple range check would probably work well. If someone wants to spend resources building a hugely long wall that also requires defending just to have an extra HH, they probably deserve to have it.
Originally posted by Axxar There'll be respawn points in the game regardless. I just think it would be cooler to have the players make them. But one side effect of that is it makes it harder to control exactly where they are placed. Depending on your POV, that could be good or bad.
Thats the point really. Respawning is just such an important thing that there have to be strict limitations on it. Perhaps related to something like the Stabalizers where players can move them around but there would be some limited number of them.
If you have healing halls and just try to control it by how many you can build in a certain area, people will do silly stuff like building a long hallway like castle with a healing hall at the exact minimum distance away from each other they can be.
If you have to come up with a bunch of really complicated rules to make something work, there are probably holes in it and players will find them.
A simple range check would probably work well. If someone wants to spend resources building a hugely long wall that also requires defending just to have an extra HH, they probably deserve to have it.
poitn being, it lets the players define how hard or easy the rezing process will be
1 - If you make it easy/costless to rez, killing people in PvP becomes meaningless.
2 - If you make it very costly/long timer, the rez itself adds very little value to the overall fight and you may as well not bother to have one.
I strongly believe the best choice is a long 15-30 minute timer, but low mana cost. If you need to combat rez, you are probably already low on mana from healing the bugger who just died, so a high mana cost will just ensure that the spell is rarely able to be used usefully if ever. If you have a low mana cost though, you can't allow it to be used often or (see point 1)
As to out of combat rezzes, as long as they have a long interruptable cast-time and gameplay does not allow you to get out of combat in the middle of a battle, I'd go for no timer and 20% or so cost of total mana pool.
1 - If you make it easy/costless to rez, killing people in PvP becomes meaningless.
2 - If you make it very costly/long timer, the rez itself adds very little value to the overall fight and you may as well not bother to have one.
I strongly believe the best choice is a long 15-30 minute timer, but low mana cost. If you need to combat rez, you are probably already low on mana from healing the bugger who just died, so a high mana cost will just ensure that the spell is rarely able to be used usefully if ever. If you have a low mana cost though, you can't allow it to be used often or (see point 1)
As to out of combat rezzes, as long as they have a long interruptable cast-time and gameplay does not allow you to get out of combat in the middle of a battle, I'd go for no timer and 20% or so cost of total mana pool.
agree with everything you say. I even agree with 15-30 minutes in combat, it should not be something used without care. I think we all agree that rezing people should not be easy like in GW2, but much more hardcore. harder then WoW for sure. I do not think there needs to be any revolutionary changes to the mechanic of healers rezing people , just give it a long cool down when in battle.
All the ideas i suggested about buildable rez points are more to do with what you do when you do not get a rez. if you want to get back into the fight fast like gw2, your realm better have build a rez point near by and accept the risks. point being, its the players choice.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 I think classic EQ had the best death system. It was difficult to die in that game if you were smart but also difficult to recover from death.
also agree with this, a good game design does not allow for too easy of deaths to players that have there wits about. if your playing attention, it should not actually be that easy to die. if you do, its punishment.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 I think classic EQ had the best death system. It was difficult to die in that game if you were smart but also difficult to recover from death.
also agree with this, a good game design does not allow for too easy of deaths to players that have there wits about. if your playing attention, it should not actually be that easy to die. if you do, its punishment.
1-2 shots or insta deaths are poor game design
Well remember that DAoC/WoW/Every game ever had to vertically scale damage so that "Fireball 10" did proporinate damage to a Uber Boss at max level as fireball 1 did to random mobs at level 1.
The major benefit of not worrying about PvE is that we wont have to see the same scaling in damage and as such will not likely see quick deaths.
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112 I think classic EQ had the best death system. It was difficult to die in that game if you were smart but also difficult to recover from death.
also agree with this, a good game design does not allow for too easy of deaths to players that have there wits about. if your playing attention, it should not actually be that easy to die. if you do, its punishment.
1-2 shots or insta deaths are poor game design
Well remember that DAoC/WoW/Every game ever had to vertically scale damage so that "Fireball 10" did proporinate damage to a Uber Boss at max level as fireball 1 did to random mobs at level 1.
The major benefit of not worrying about PvE is that we wont have to see the same scaling in damage and as such will not likely see quick deaths.
Deaths can come just as quickly....
we don't know the effective gap yet of a Day 1 character with starter gear and a "maxed" character.
maybe their effective damage output may only be 15% difference
Game doesnt need rez sickness, graveyards shouldn't be close enough to the main areas of battle that the travel times are insignificant. The idea of some form of temporary rally point would be worth testing but I reckon it would be too advantageous to the higher pop faction.
As for combat rez, I dont think there should be any easy way to do it even with a cooldown. You wanna try then you should have to put yourself at risk. Even then the number of times its possible in a short period of time should be limited.
That being said, I do still think that anyone being able to rez ala GW2 is better than it being healers only. I'd rather see that and there be more limits on how often you can actually be rez'd before being forced too a graveyard.
Not very creative, but should be very effective as a baseline to consider all requirements:
- Rez has a 15s cast time
- 0 cooldown
- "mid-large" mana cost
- in-combat usable
- inflicts rez sickness: (a) x% stat debuff, (b) stat debuff stacks), (c) each stack tracked separately and recovers naturally in 15-60 minutes
- rez sickness completely removed at the realm's "home area"
This combination of conditions has the following benefits:
Rez is not spammable. Rez has a significant combat cost, but can still be used in combat. Dying still has an attrition penalty via 'sickness' -- and the penalty can grow to be significant.
Note: for lore-related integration ...
"A wounded player can be resuscitated on the field of battle with veil energy. The influx of VeilPower (TM) is harmful to the body, especially when it accumulates. This 'Veil Sickness' expired naturally over a long period of time, or can be drawn out of a player's system by visiting the [insert random hotsprings service with young, nubile elfwomens in the home territory]."
we don't know the effective gap yet of a Day 1 character with starter gear and a "maxed" character.
maybe their effective damage output may only be 15% difference
For sure, especially when we consider that quick death more often than not occurs because most people are ill prepared.
Exactly. What makes an emphasis on RvR in design interesting (as MJ as noted) is that it saves the Designer from having to worry about balancing between damage done to Mobs and damage done to Players
Wouldn't harsh death penalties promote a defensive play ?
ie. I see a fight over there but am not 100% sure we will win so i don't even bother cause of the 30 min res penalty or so ? Doesn't make much sense to me, to make a game where you are punished so harsh for making a mistake. It is still a game...
Comments
What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot
I really feel like the healing hall concept is too broad. Perhaps the guild hall could replace it but only for members of a certain guild. Even with that I'm hesitant.
I feel like death should really matter. You shouldnt just be ok with dying and respawning repeatedly throughout a fight. That sort of goes along with the idea that I wouldnt want people just instantly dying in a few hits either. If youre near death you should be seriously considering a retreat away from the front lines.
It feels reasonable for the defenders who live behind the walls because they are defending their homes, but everyone else? Killing someone should have an effect on the battlefield for more than a minute or two.
A siege on a large structure should be taking a couple hours anyway to give defenders time to react and get there (otherwise the whole game will just be people ninja stealing undefended castles). You'll have plenty of time to still be involved even if you have to run back.
Thats the point really. Respawning is just such an important thing that there have to be strict limitations on it. Perhaps related to something like the Stabalizers where players can move them around but there would be some limited number of them.
If you have healing halls and just try to control it by how many you can build in a certain area, people will do silly stuff like building a long hallway like castle with a healing hall at the exact minimum distance away from each other they can be.
If you have to come up with a bunch of really complicated rules to make something work, there are probably holes in it and players will find them.
6 seconds castspeed for singlerezz (no AE rezz at all)
Costs a lot of resources (about 50% manapool)
Interruptable
Rezz sickness (50%-75% less heal incoming, weaken damage output, hitpoints reduced)
Maybe even rezz immunity for a period of time would be also good
Rezz is just for heal classes available
But rezz should be in despite useless "carebear" comments. We will have zergs and simple groups. A group of 5 players shouldn't end up with waiting 30 minutes for one groupmember who died ... running all the way back to his group. There will be a huge RvR map with a really restricted sort of fast traveling - which is a cool thing. Maybe even taxi only fast travel - who knows.
Edit: After all I think we will have to wait and see how "fast" this game will be. Mark Jacobs mentioned that he wants that keepfights should be hard and long and that you shouldn't be able to take keeps "just like that". In some cases stuff like "rezz" depends on combat and special events (as taking or defending a keep) itself.
Nice idea. It really adds to the game within the game.
/support
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
To stop people from building rez points in hotly contested keeps. I would just prevent them working withint a structure that is under attack... Thats not a hard problem to fix.
if the rez point buildable structure ( or healing hall ) is under attack itself, then it does not function either
For what its worth, I think there are a lot of good ways they could handle rezzing and will just wait to see what they come up with. MJs brief outline of thoughts about rezzing seems sound to me.
I think the main thing is that you don't want dieing to be too painful but you also don't want it to be relatively painless.
Problems with relatively painless death: This encourages zerging and dumb play. We have all probably played those games where--because of how death and/or scoring works in them--the optimal play is to run into a giant moshpit of fighting and die 3 seconds later, only to rush into the pit and die again after that ad nauseum. When this happens, you rightly feel frustrated because the game is encouraging you to be a moron and it gets boring quickly. Even if it isn't as bad as all that, you do generally want game mechanics to reward smart play and actual thinking.
Problems with too severe death penalties: It encourages ganking to the exclusion of all else. People only want to commit to a fight if they are twice the level of the other guys and have ten times the troops. When people become so extraordinarily cautious I think the game tends to devolve again into relatively thoughtless play where you just want to outnumber the other guys vastly because any death (esp if permadeath or some BS like that) is just too much and you can't risk it. We have all probably also played this type of game. It tends to be easy to spot because you log in for the very first time (never having played it before) and immediately find yourself dead and some high level person looting your corpse just outside the starter area.
I know there are some who prefer one of the two extremes but I do believe that most of us realize that it is a balancing act and the game has to find that happy medium. Where exactly it is depends a lot on other factors in the game. I am willing to give the CU crew the benefit of the doubt and just see what they come up with.
Make it like GW2 where everyone can rez and also have a downed mechanic like GW2......
just kidding.....
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
I was worried there for a second lol
Rezzing already has the advantage of not having buffs and rezz effects.
As long as there is limited mana and casting interrupts you don't need to shut down recovering mechanics like you do in WoW.
And thats one thing I'd like to avoid, balancing survivability around unrecoverable deaths. I hated that about wow, after you killed 1 person in a group it just snowballed.
If you watch any guild groups in an arena match, as soon as 1 enemy dies you hear congratulations, cause killing 1 player = victory. Might as well play the final fantasy victory music.
That doens't happen in daoc. Just because you've killed someone doesn't mean you can get lazy. Once you down anyone that can rezz THEN the fight is won.
That isn't to say that a death isn't a huge advantage in DAoC, its just something you CAN recover from if you play your cards right.
A simple range check would probably work well. If someone wants to spend resources building a hugely long wall that also requires defending just to have an extra HH, they probably deserve to have it.
poitn being, it lets the players define how hard or easy the rezing process will be
1 - If you make it easy/costless to rez, killing people in PvP becomes meaningless.
2 - If you make it very costly/long timer, the rez itself adds very little value to the overall fight and you may as well not bother to have one.
I strongly believe the best choice is a long 15-30 minute timer, but low mana cost. If you need to combat rez, you are probably already low on mana from healing the bugger who just died, so a high mana cost will just ensure that the spell is rarely able to be used usefully if ever. If you have a low mana cost though, you can't allow it to be used often or (see point 1)
As to out of combat rezzes, as long as they have a long interruptable cast-time and gameplay does not allow you to get out of combat in the middle of a battle, I'd go for no timer and 20% or so cost of total mana pool.
agree with everything you say. I even agree with 15-30 minutes in combat, it should not be something used without care. I think we all agree that rezing people should not be easy like in GW2, but much more hardcore. harder then WoW for sure. I do not think there needs to be any revolutionary changes to the mechanic of healers rezing people , just give it a long cool down when in battle.
All the ideas i suggested about buildable rez points are more to do with what you do when you do not get a rez. if you want to get back into the fight fast like gw2, your realm better have build a rez point near by and accept the risks. point being, its the players choice.
also agree with this, a good game design does not allow for too easy of deaths to players that have there wits about. if your playing attention, it should not actually be that easy to die. if you do, its punishment.
1-2 shots or insta deaths are poor game design
Well remember that DAoC/WoW/Every game ever had to vertically scale damage so that "Fireball 10" did proporinate damage to a Uber Boss at max level as fireball 1 did to random mobs at level 1.
The major benefit of not worrying about PvE is that we wont have to see the same scaling in damage and as such will not likely see quick deaths.
I'm thinking Rez sickness needs to last about half as long as travel would take from safe city.
another question! If you release....how long is Rez sickness and can an NPC healer cure it?
Deaths can come just as quickly....
we don't know the effective gap yet of a Day 1 character with starter gear and a "maxed" character.
maybe their effective damage output may only be 15% difference
Game doesnt need rez sickness, graveyards shouldn't be close enough to the main areas of battle that the travel times are insignificant. The idea of some form of temporary rally point would be worth testing but I reckon it would be too advantageous to the higher pop faction.
As for combat rez, I dont think there should be any easy way to do it even with a cooldown. You wanna try then you should have to put yourself at risk. Even then the number of times its possible in a short period of time should be limited.
That being said, I do still think that anyone being able to rez ala GW2 is better than it being healers only. I'd rather see that and there be more limits on how often you can actually be rez'd before being forced too a graveyard.
Not very creative, but should be very effective as a baseline to consider all requirements:
- Rez has a 15s cast time
- 0 cooldown
- "mid-large" mana cost
- in-combat usable
- inflicts rez sickness: (a) x% stat debuff, (b) stat debuff stacks), (c) each stack tracked separately and recovers naturally in 15-60 minutes
- rez sickness completely removed at the realm's "home area"
This combination of conditions has the following benefits:
Rez is not spammable. Rez has a significant combat cost, but can still be used in combat. Dying still has an attrition penalty via 'sickness' -- and the penalty can grow to be significant.
Note: for lore-related integration ...
"A wounded player can be resuscitated on the field of battle with veil energy. The influx of VeilPower (TM) is harmful to the body, especially when it accumulates. This 'Veil Sickness' expired naturally over a long period of time, or can be drawn out of a player's system by visiting the [insert random hotsprings service with young, nubile elfwomens in the home territory]."
For sure, especially when we consider that quick death more often than not occurs because most people are ill prepared.
Exactly. What makes an emphasis on RvR in design interesting (as MJ as noted) is that it saves the Designer from having to worry about balancing between damage done to Mobs and damage done to Players
Wouldn't harsh death penalties promote a defensive play ?
ie. I see a fight over there but am not 100% sure we will win so i don't even bother cause of the 30 min res penalty or so ? Doesn't make much sense to me, to make a game where you are punished so harsh for making a mistake. It is still a game...