This thread is completely inane; "OMG! MMOs are dying because... because the stupid-stupid FTPers are Ruining it for everyone... /sniffle" There are so many games flooding the market now that its actually difficult to find the one that meets individual criteria. Going FTP (WITHOUT a BTW cash shop) is completely reasonable. It gives players a chance to try them out and decide whether or not it's a viable game for them. Getting butt-hurt because peeps bail on a game (probably YOUR favorite game) is simply stupid. If anything, Devs need to stick to the FTP model right off the bat, and focus on the content and making it interesting for the player.
The sadest thing about this thread is that it's such troll/click bait, and I'm actually sucked in to post.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold? What would you call that? I call that a deck of cards that collapsed. Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today. Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now. Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ . So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down. Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers. The same thing will happen to the MMO industry. You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever. It still will be a major change from the industry of today.
I would call that a fantasy.
Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research. So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY! If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up. So keep flapping your gums.
Sorry, bro. You are the one that hasn't done any research. You keep saying that same thing over and over again - the F2P model is going to collapse. Yet, you have not brought forward one shred of evidence, not one single thing to support your theory.
The closest you have come is saying that the market is getting saturated. Well yeah, it is, which is exactly why P2P is struggling so damned much right now and will continue to struggle in the years to come. There are so many solid options available to the players that are F2P right now that P2P is continually losing market share. But even if the market becomes over saturated with F2P MMORPGs, it does not mean that everything is going to collapse. It just means that the smaller, less successful games will have to shut down. But HALF the market in the next 3 years? Pfft, it's just a ridiculous assertion with zero evidence to support it.
It has nothing to do with how hardcore you game, it has to do with your personal character. As he said F2P games are heaven for people like him, because he can just "beat" the game and move on. He doesn't even have to pay anything most of the time.
So what is the benefit of him playing an MMO for everyone else but him? He's a freeloader, he's a leech on the resources of the developers, and he admits he is antagonistic towards the community that plays the games. I mean how is it a good thing to have the "higher population" f2p conversions promise when this is the kind of players you are going to be playing with.
Hm? You are reading too much into my post. I'm perfectly okay to drop $20-$30 at the F2P game I'm currently interested in and playing, so I'm pretty much exactly what developers hope for when they made the game.
Also, I'm not "antagonistic" towards community at large; I'm indifferent to it. When I'm playing in groups, I'm not particularly rude or inconsiderate, unless people I'm playing with are complete and utter dolts. I'm antagonistic to people with their heads up their backsides, which, by the way, describes the vast majority of posters on this site, so after reading a thread or two here I become extremely abrasive.
So, about groups - even though I'm not inconsiderate or rude, I'm not trying to develop any relationships, befriend anyone or form a lasting group or guild - because it's useless. I'll log in next time in 2 or 3 days; by that time everyone else would either level ahead or behind me; I'll never see any of them again. So what's the point of "community" for me? It's irrelevant for me; I'm perfectly okay with autogrouping and random matching, because I'm not going to waste an hour trying to make a group.
*shrug* you say, that "MMOs are not for me", but the fact is, I'm the market. I'm the norm. It's you, "hardcores", who are the outlier; it's you who are in the wrong genre. MMOs are not for you anymore. Deal with it.
You are only the norm because there are too many MMOs out there that need people like you. When the publishers shut down because players like you are in the MMO genera and were never met for the genera you will see what happens to the MMO genera then. As much as you like to say that MMOs are not for you anymore thats only because you think they are for you when single player games are. End of story you are not what the MMO genera as been nor made it a strong industry. You are only the affect of too many MMOs on the market trying to get as many people to play their game as possible. Its not sustainable and never will be. You call everyone hardcore that plays an MMO for community and accomplishment thats not hardcore thats the genera not pay $20 play the content move to the next game like you. As much as you want to think you are its future your dead wrong. That is why we are at a tipping point now that publishers are having a hard time making the money back that they invested. Once we get back to a normal level of open MMOs to Market publishers will stick to what keeps players playing for more than 2 months.
Desktop/laptop PC sales are declining true but this is not a permanent thing once tablet saturation is reached,then the other PC sectors will pick up again.Tablets are a new segment of the PC market and so people are buying one now instead of upgrading their PC but once they all have tablets they will want to upgrade their PCs.
I am the proud owner of a Nexus 7 I love it and even do game on it,but there are some tasks and games I do not want to do on a tablet that a desktop PC is far superior at.There is room for both and equilibrium will be reached.
Anyone crying death of PCs can join the legions of market Analysts who have being saying that since the early 90s and been wrong.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold? What would you call that? I call that a deck of cards that collapsed. Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today. Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now. Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ . So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down. Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers. The same thing will happen to the MMO industry. You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever. It still will be a major change from the industry of today.
I would call that a fantasy.
Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research. So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY! If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up. So keep flapping your gums.
Sorry, bro. You are the one that hasn't done any research. You keep saying that same thing over and over again - the F2P model is going to collapse. Yet, you have not brought forward one shred of evidence, not one single thing to support your theory.
The closest you have come is saying that the market is getting saturated. Well yeah, it is, which is exactly why P2P is struggling so damned much right now and will continue to struggle in the years to come. There are so many solid options available to the players that are F2P right now that P2P is continually losing market share. But even if the market becomes over saturated with F2P MMORPGs, it does not mean that everything is going to collapse. It just means that the smaller, less successful games will have to shut down. But HALF the market in the next 3 years? Pfft, it's just a ridiculous assertion with zero evidence to support it.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
While I think there is some truth to what you are saying. The market has grown exponentially by tens of millions of players and billions of dollars because of those people.
While you say it would be better to not have them, I say if they left the entire MMO industry would collapse. The market has become dependent on them.
What I am saying is the MMO industry will go through a type of collapse. Why do I say that? Too many publishers have invested too much money into MMOs and are either not making a profit or are making a small profit that the businesses will be better closing these games down. Take Trion for example they they have what, North of $100 Million sunk in Defiance. If I remember correctly 80 Million in End of Nations. I would have to say though I dont have proof yet about 30 to 50 Million on Storm Legion. All of this money went into these MMOs in the last what 3 to 4 years? Trion is not making that money back right now. They are trying hard to get new players into Defiance. How can this model be sustainable? In short its not so what will happen is a publisher like this could close because too much investments and not enough revenues coming in.
Or the F2P games that are doing poorly will shut down and the F2P games that are doing well will continue to be as strong as ever. You know, just like what happened with P2P games before F2P was the popular option.
Your idea that everything will collapse at once is a fantasy. It's not based in reality. You may be correct to say that the market isn't large enough to sustain like 9 million F2P games, but to extrapolate that assumption to a total collapse of the payment model is just a fantasy.
And what would you call it if half the MMOs are closed in 3 years and several new MMOs that were being designed were terminated or put on hold? What would you call that? I call that a deck of cards that collapsed. Yes Good F2P and P2P games will survive however not as many as we see today. Too many publishers have too much invested in too many MMOs right now. Closing 2 or 3 will not fix it when there are 50+ MMOs on the market and if you add in all the browser based MMOs what like 400+ . So no its not a fantasy its realistic that the publisher base as well as the amount of MMOs out there will come down. Just look at from 1980 until about 2000 on how many Gaming publishers either closed or were bought by other publishers. The same thing will happen to the MMO industry. You can call it downsizing, collapsing or what ever. It still will be a major change from the industry of today.
I would call that a fantasy.
Thats because you lack logical thinking and any ability to do your own research. So you are going to go with NOPE YOUR WRONG YOUR FANTASY! If you had spent time looking at the MMO publishers, the amount invested and the amount of revenue coming in you would see that it does not add up. So keep flapping your gums.
Sorry, bro. You are the one that hasn't done any research. You keep saying that same thing over and over again - the F2P model is going to collapse. Yet, you have not brought forward one shred of evidence, not one single thing to support your theory.
The closest you have come is saying that the market is getting saturated. Well yeah, it is, which is exactly why P2P is struggling so damned much right now and will continue to struggle in the years to come. There are so many solid options available to the players that are F2P right now that P2P is continually losing market share. But even if the market becomes over saturated with F2P MMORPGs, it does not mean that everything is going to collapse. It just means that the smaller, less successful games will have to shut down. But HALF the market in the next 3 years? Pfft, it's just a ridiculous assertion with zero evidence to support it.
Just do the reading its right there in your face. I have done the research its not hard to see that many games will be closing soon.
You are mistaking opinion for evidence.
If SWTOR isn't in the black yet, they will be soon. And they currently have 500k subs and 1.7 million F2P players. I'm not sure why you would consider that an asset to your argument. If anything it showed that F2P saved a previously P2P game from extinction. Now that they went F2P, they are doing quite well.
Mark Jacobs is just as bad as you are at predicting the future. Got knows why you would use his opinion to support your own. See, when you quote a figurehead like that, at least read what he says and make sure he is using evidence instead of opinion to support his position. Anyone can say (as exhibited by you) that F2P is going to have an apocalypse without offering a shred of evidence or even an argument. Watch, "the sky is red!"
And I don't even know what you are trying to show me with Defiance. It's an article that came out before the game was released and the game isn't even F2P. It's a $60 B2P MMOFPS/RPG with a tie in that is still alive and kicking that has updates to the game fairly often. I don't know if they are making or losing money on the endeavor, but the game straight up sucks in my opinion for the amount of money they spent on it.
If these are the things that you are basing your prediction of total collapse of the F2P model, then you aren't only standing on thin ice, you are already in the water.
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
Been saying for a long long time that 'F2P' creates a super transient non invested player base, so, yeah, with you here.
It's why these companies now move you asap to the sweet spot of charging (when you are deepest in your initial addiction rush)... They don't honestly expect to keep you long and need to rinse you as fast as possible with gambling boxes and whatnot.
'F2P' solves non of the traditional design problems with these games, it just introduces more of them. It really is a terrible model for anyone but those that like to game hop or juggle an ever changing set of 3 MMOs at once.
We asked for better games, they gave us this nasty anti-gamer revenue model.
In virtually every industry you have 5-10 really great products/services/companies and several dozen/hundred smaller ones. If the industry is new or going through a growth phase there willl be a shake-up and then you will end up with the aforementione number of good ones out there.
The MMO industry is no different.
F2p did not cause this. P2p did not cause this. Neither f2p, nor p2p will save or stop this. It was inevitable just as it is inevitable in every industry.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I think it's at the point where people realize that no matter how good a game is, 15 a month isn't worth due to the sheer fact that 15 dollars isn't needed to make a great MMO.
That and there are many games or MMOs to try out, the amount of MMOs then was less, so options were less then causing someone to stick to said MMO most of the time.
If WoW released now?
Umm I'm sorry to ust peoples bubbles but I'm sure it wouldn't be P2P for long. I'm not saying WoW is terrible but let's be real, many past MMOs, inluding sandboxes that are still P2P, would not be P2P for long, releasing now.
I say it time n time again, it's all based on time.
Video games to people outside of this website(I believe this website is pro p2p least far as most active members who love to talk about p2p being best), is not worth no damn 15 dollars, not when more great games provide just as much fun these days.
Like my dream mmo if it so happened to cost 15 dollars a month, then well I guess I won't be playing my dream mmo.
I mean a good change could be 5 dollars a month for once, it makes no damn sense to seee a sub on a game plus a cash shop that's on par with recent B2P games, I'm sorry but it does not lol.
Another thing, people are so damn picky and needy, because EQ and WoW now have things, a MMO now must release with all those things. It's a pure shame, people constantly lowering their IQ just so they can act like they are shocked of some feature not being released or still not being released in a game, I.E GVG. It doesn't piss me off but it does amuse me and at the same time makes me a bit sad ha ha.
P2P will not thrive, mainly because of those that want P2P MMOs, which is ironic lol. You guys who want P2P MMOs, have high expectations, most of the time impatiently waiting for stuff, most of the time not wanting change but will be quick to shout "I'm nt paying 15 a month for a WoW clone."
I mean this is based off my observations, it's like you guys want P2P but make it difficult for devs who go that route, so I'm sure Devs are like "Why bother?" I mean say an MMO released with each feature that's constantly begged for, the next thing will be that the features aren't in depth in entirety, like option wise.
Then you have people like me, who still know damn well 15 dollars a month is not worth it.
Then you have the pro p2p crowd still bitching and still quiting, why? Cause something small or slow is happening.
I'll repeat once again all these P2P mmos now would look a whole lot different if releasing in the same time frame as all these other "P2P failures."
By the way a f2p failure would be one that shut down or because they need more money they turn into the p2p option, most MMOs die fast due to picky gamers and in fact the P2P model itself.
But go on ahead and keep sticking your heads into the sand shouting "P2P IS BEST P2P IS BEST!" Not saying that's how all people who don't like F2P and B2P are, but I have yet, least in my 19 years of living seen why P2P is the way to go when all examples lead otherwise.
One last statement, a great MMO can be great and still not cater to you, once you fellas realize and accept that, maybe then you'll understand why great MMOs are not flying with the p2p method, like there are many great MMOs that don't cater to me but I understand they are actually worth playing, it's also why people don't see me in other game forums that I don't like stating in every thread something negative about the game.
It's why(which this will hurt you guys) GW2/TSW payment model is actually looking a lot better than p2p at the moment.
Tl;dr - It is not the result of going F2P, quite the opposite actually. Take care fellas lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
All I see is bad titles being released and people trying to blame it on the business model instead of the actual content of the game.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift. I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough. I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
It is AMAZING that some people like this poster have so bought into the F2P mentality that they actually believe someone is ENTITLED simply for wanting to get in-game items without paying real life cash for them.
I was SOOOO entitled back when I was playing Legend of Zelda and just got the Master Sword through playing a game I already bought without paying a dime for it through the mail order Nintendo Shop!
I'm no better than a thief! Ayn Rand would have my head.
Perhaps you feel a F2P games needs to be completely free and everyone should be able to get everything without paying a dime.
And I totally forgot what a amazing F2P game Legend of Zelda was?????
Perhaps try to respond to what I actually said or be somewhat more on topic
........................ a great MMO can be great and still not cater to you..............................
Yep. Most people who end up on these forums are here because they don't have an mmo forum to hang out on. That makes for a lot of bitter people who never found a game that worked for them and want to know why. Blaming the market is easy enough.
havent read the whole thread, has anyone explained the crash and burn of WAR and AoC (amongst others) at a time when "f2p" was still largely frowned upon? - besides just "hyuck wow clone hyuckk hyuck"
I think it's at the point where people realize that no matter how good a game is, 15 a month isn't worth due to the sheer fact that 15 dollars isn't needed to make a great MMO.
That and there are many games or MMOs to try out, the amount of MMOs then was less, so options were less then causing someone to stick to said MMO most of the time.
If WoW released now?
Umm I'm sorry to ust peoples bubbles but I'm sure it wouldn't be P2P for long. I'm not saying WoW is terrible but let's be real, many past MMOs, inluding sandboxes that are still P2P, would not be P2P for long, releasing now.
I say it time n time again, it's all based on time.
Video games to people outside of this website(I believe this website is pro p2p least far as most active members who love to talk about p2p being best), is not worth no damn 15 dollars, not when more great games provide just as much fun these days.
Like my dream mmo if it so happened to cost 15 dollars a month, then well I guess I won't be playing my dream mmo.
I mean a good change could be 5 dollars a month for once, it makes no damn sense to seee a sub on a game plus a cash shop that's on par with recent B2P games, I'm sorry but it does not lol.
Another thing, people are so damn picky and needy, because EQ and WoW now have things, a MMO now must release with all those things. It's a pure shame, people constantly lowering their IQ just so they can act like they are shocked of some feature not being released or still not being released in a game, I.E GVG. It doesn't piss me off but it does amuse me and at the same time makes me a bit sad ha ha.
P2P will not thrive, mainly because of those that want P2P MMOs, which is ironic lol. You guys who want P2P MMOs, have high expectations, most of the time impatiently waiting for stuff, most of the time not wanting change but will be quick to shout "I'm nt paying 15 a month for a WoW clone."
I mean this is based off my observations, it's like you guys want P2P but make it difficult for devs who go that route, so I'm sure Devs are like "Why bother?" I mean say an MMO released with each feature that's constantly begged for, the next thing will be that the features aren't in depth in entirety, like option wise.
Then you have people like me, who still know damn well 15 dollars a month is not worth it.
Then you have the pro p2p crowd still bitching and still quiting, why? Cause something small or slow is happening.
I'll repeat once again all these P2P mmos now would look a whole lot different if releasing in the same time frame as all these other "P2P failures."
By the way a f2p failure would be one that shut down or because they need more money they turn into the p2p option, most MMOs die fast due to picky gamers and in fact the P2P model itself.
But go on ahead and keep sticking your heads into the sand shouting "P2P IS BEST P2P IS BEST!" Not saying that's how all people who don't like F2P and B2P are, but I have yet, least in my 19 years of living seen why P2P is the way to go when all examples lead otherwise.
One last statement, a great MMO can be great and still not cater to you, once you fellas realize and accept that, maybe then you'll understand why great MMOs are not flying with the p2p method, like there are many great MMOs that don't cater to me but I understand they are actually worth playing, it's also why people don't see me in other game forums that I don't like stating in every thread something negative about the game.
It's why(which this will hurt you guys) GW2/TSW payment model is actually looking a lot better than p2p at the moment.
Tl;dr - It is not the result of going F2P, quite the opposite actually. Take care fellas lol.
I have to agree with Rizel here.
There is just too much choice right now and a lot of people feel that committing to just one game via a monthly sub just isnt worth it. Too many games, all pretty much doing the same thing. Back in early 2000 you have what, maybe 4 mainstream MMOs to choose from, each offering a different type of game play from the other. Communities were formed within those games.
Today you have the post WoW era of MMOs. where almost all of the games were built like Walmart - Containing a little bit of everything but in mostly generic form. Many people don't want to commit to Game B because they are already committed to Game A. Why pay for a new game that is simply the same as the current one? This is the reason MMOs decline so fast. Its the 'Been there. Done that' feeling.
Western MMO companies are now trying to find a balance of F2P/Premium hybrid payment models that will allow players access to the game with the option to sub if they find it worth paying for those features or even buying just those features/perks they want when they want them. This is beneficial to the companies because they still make money (which means better chance of good developers keeping jobs and new projects in the future) and the players get to play games they want to play at their own financial pace (Some may make a $5 purchase here or there, others might feel the game is worthy of a $15 sub while others might feel the base game is fine for them with $0)
B2P games are pretty much the same as F2P in the financial sense - but again, mileage may vary depending on the studio.
Basically today we have more options as a player base on what we want to play and how we want to pay.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Have you noticed how there are hundreds of MMO but they all die off in a matter of months.
Have you noticed that people jump from MMO to MMO.
Have you noticed how communities in MMO are dead, no one really gives a damn anymore.
Have you noticed how you seem to level to the cap in a matter of weeks.
In a F2P MMO all the freeloaders bail the ship once they hit the paywall after a few weeks, the ones who get tired of having to pay to progress bail the ship a few weeks after, and the whales is all that's left, but they jump ship too once they realise they're competing against themselves and no longer have a monetary edge over freeloaders.
As a result, no one joins older F2P, since they would need to spend hundreds of dollars to compete with the whales. The MMO simply die.
As a result the quality of the MMO goes down too, since the companies make dying MMO after dying MMO, to rake in cash from the whales.
In China MMo last a couple of months, and they shut them down. This is the future of F2P MMO, completely meaningless casino adventures. Congorats.
Congrats on what :P
I've got some counter questions which are just as truthful I guess.
Have you noticed devs produce less and less quality AAA MMOs ?
Have you noticed devs don't care about community lately?
Have you noticed how they're more and more interested on initial sale numbers?
Have you noticed how devs and publishers don't care about longetivity of a mmo?
Consumers aren't stupid.. I know I'm not going to pay sub price if there's nothing to do when I hit level cap or if there are mayor bugs and half the game which was promised doesn't actually work and stuff like that.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Have you notices monthly subscription prices haven't rising in decades? $15/mo
F2P masks the price hike. Super cool mount? $25. Extra bag space? $10/ea. The laundry list goes on and on and when it's all added up, you just paid the equivalent of $50+/mo or left the game if you refuse to pay for the cash shop items.
Can I get this list of "dead" mmos, as well as a definition of "dead" in MMO terms?
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
It is AMAZING that some people like this poster have so bought into the F2P mentality that they actually believe someone is ENTITLED simply for wanting to get in-game items without paying real life cash for them.
I was SOOOO entitled back when I was playing Legend of Zelda and just got the Master Sword through playing a game I already bought without paying a dime for it through the mail order Nintendo Shop!
I'm no better than a thief! Ayn Rand would have my head.
Perhaps you feel a F2P games needs to be completely free and everyone should be able to get everything without paying a dime.
And I totally forgot what a amazing F2P game Legend of Zelda was?????
Perhaps try to respond to what I actually said or be somewhat more on topic
I bought zelda just like I buy and pay for all the games I play. I just don't buy virtual pixels INSIDE of a game with real money because I'm not a chump that falls for that kind of crap.
imho it's the result of an over-saturated genre. Way too many games and folks just aren't willing to just stick around long enough to form long term social bonds anymore.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
Comments
There are so many games flooding the market now that its actually difficult to find the one that meets individual criteria. Going FTP (WITHOUT a BTW cash shop) is completely reasonable. It gives players a chance to try them out and decide whether or not it's a viable game for them. Getting butt-hurt because peeps bail on a game (probably YOUR favorite game) is simply stupid. If anything, Devs need to stick to the FTP model right off the bat, and focus on the content and making it interesting for the player.
The sadest thing about this thread is that it's such troll/click bait, and I'm actually sucked in to post.
Sorry, bro. You are the one that hasn't done any research. You keep saying that same thing over and over again - the F2P model is going to collapse. Yet, you have not brought forward one shred of evidence, not one single thing to support your theory.
The closest you have come is saying that the market is getting saturated. Well yeah, it is, which is exactly why P2P is struggling so damned much right now and will continue to struggle in the years to come. There are so many solid options available to the players that are F2P right now that P2P is continually losing market share. But even if the market becomes over saturated with F2P MMORPGs, it does not mean that everything is going to collapse. It just means that the smaller, less successful games will have to shut down. But HALF the market in the next 3 years? Pfft, it's just a ridiculous assertion with zero evidence to support it.
You are only the norm because there are too many MMOs out there that need people like you. When the publishers shut down because players like you are in the MMO genera and were never met for the genera you will see what happens to the MMO genera then. As much as you like to say that MMOs are not for you anymore thats only because you think they are for you when single player games are. End of story you are not what the MMO genera as been nor made it a strong industry. You are only the affect of too many MMOs on the market trying to get as many people to play their game as possible. Its not sustainable and never will be. You call everyone hardcore that plays an MMO for community and accomplishment thats not hardcore thats the genera not pay $20 play the content move to the next game like you. As much as you want to think you are its future your dead wrong. That is why we are at a tipping point now that publishers are having a hard time making the money back that they invested. Once we get back to a normal level of open MMOs to Market publishers will stick to what keeps players playing for more than 2 months.
Desktop/laptop PC sales are declining true but this is not a permanent thing once tablet saturation is reached,then the other PC sectors will pick up again.Tablets are a new segment of the PC market and so people are buying one now instead of upgrading their PC but once they all have tablets they will want to upgrade their PCs.
I am the proud owner of a Nexus 7 I love it and even do game on it,but there are some tasks and games I do not want to do on a tablet that a desktop PC is far superior at.There is room for both and equilibrium will be reached.
Anyone crying death of PCs can join the legions of market Analysts who have being saying that since the early 90s and been wrong.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffbercovici/2012/11/26/with-defiance-comcasts-syfy-bets-100m-on-convergence-of-tv-and-videogames/
http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/20/ea-spent-only-200m-to-make-star-wars-the-old-republic/
http://www.vg247.com/2013/04/12/camelot-unchained-dev-free-to-play-headed-towards-an-apocalypse-in-3-5-years-time/
Just do the reading its right there in your face. I have done the research its not hard to see that many games will be closing soon.
And depressing accuracy.
To find an intelligent person in a PUG is not that rare, but to find a PUG made up of "all" intelligent people is one of the rarest phenomenons in the known universe.
You are mistaking opinion for evidence.
If SWTOR isn't in the black yet, they will be soon. And they currently have 500k subs and 1.7 million F2P players. I'm not sure why you would consider that an asset to your argument. If anything it showed that F2P saved a previously P2P game from extinction. Now that they went F2P, they are doing quite well.
Mark Jacobs is just as bad as you are at predicting the future. Got knows why you would use his opinion to support your own. See, when you quote a figurehead like that, at least read what he says and make sure he is using evidence instead of opinion to support his position. Anyone can say (as exhibited by you) that F2P is going to have an apocalypse without offering a shred of evidence or even an argument. Watch, "the sky is red!"
And I don't even know what you are trying to show me with Defiance. It's an article that came out before the game was released and the game isn't even F2P. It's a $60 B2P MMOFPS/RPG with a tie in that is still alive and kicking that has updates to the game fairly often. I don't know if they are making or losing money on the endeavor, but the game straight up sucks in my opinion for the amount of money they spent on it.
If these are the things that you are basing your prediction of total collapse of the F2P model, then you aren't only standing on thin ice, you are already in the water.
Been saying for a long long time that 'F2P' creates a super transient non invested player base, so, yeah, with you here.
It's why these companies now move you asap to the sweet spot of charging (when you are deepest in your initial addiction rush)... They don't honestly expect to keep you long and need to rinse you as fast as possible with gambling boxes and whatnot.
'F2P' solves non of the traditional design problems with these games, it just introduces more of them. It really is a terrible model for anyone but those that like to game hop or juggle an ever changing set of 3 MMOs at once.
We asked for better games, they gave us this nasty anti-gamer revenue model.
In virtually every industry you have 5-10 really great products/services/companies and several dozen/hundred smaller ones. If the industry is new or going through a growth phase there willl be a shake-up and then you will end up with the aforementione number of good ones out there.
The MMO industry is no different.
F2p did not cause this. P2p did not cause this. Neither f2p, nor p2p will save or stop this. It was inevitable just as it is inevitable in every industry.
That problem existed well before F2P did.
How do we establish a cause and effect (causal) relationship?
I think it's at the point where people realize that no matter how good a game is, 15 a month isn't worth due to the sheer fact that 15 dollars isn't needed to make a great MMO.
That and there are many games or MMOs to try out, the amount of MMOs then was less, so options were less then causing someone to stick to said MMO most of the time.
If WoW released now?
Umm I'm sorry to ust peoples bubbles but I'm sure it wouldn't be P2P for long. I'm not saying WoW is terrible but let's be real, many past MMOs, inluding sandboxes that are still P2P, would not be P2P for long, releasing now.
I say it time n time again, it's all based on time.
Video games to people outside of this website(I believe this website is pro p2p least far as most active members who love to talk about p2p being best), is not worth no damn 15 dollars, not when more great games provide just as much fun these days.
Like my dream mmo if it so happened to cost 15 dollars a month, then well I guess I won't be playing my dream mmo.
I mean a good change could be 5 dollars a month for once, it makes no damn sense to seee a sub on a game plus a cash shop that's on par with recent B2P games, I'm sorry but it does not lol.
Another thing, people are so damn picky and needy, because EQ and WoW now have things, a MMO now must release with all those things. It's a pure shame, people constantly lowering their IQ just so they can act like they are shocked of some feature not being released or still not being released in a game, I.E GVG. It doesn't piss me off but it does amuse me and at the same time makes me a bit sad ha ha.
P2P will not thrive, mainly because of those that want P2P MMOs, which is ironic lol. You guys who want P2P MMOs, have high expectations, most of the time impatiently waiting for stuff, most of the time not wanting change but will be quick to shout "I'm nt paying 15 a month for a WoW clone."
I mean this is based off my observations, it's like you guys want P2P but make it difficult for devs who go that route, so I'm sure Devs are like "Why bother?" I mean say an MMO released with each feature that's constantly begged for, the next thing will be that the features aren't in depth in entirety, like option wise.
Then you have people like me, who still know damn well 15 dollars a month is not worth it.
Then you have the pro p2p crowd still bitching and still quiting, why? Cause something small or slow is happening.
I'll repeat once again all these P2P mmos now would look a whole lot different if releasing in the same time frame as all these other "P2P failures."
By the way a f2p failure would be one that shut down or because they need more money they turn into the p2p option, most MMOs die fast due to picky gamers and in fact the P2P model itself.
But go on ahead and keep sticking your heads into the sand shouting "P2P IS BEST P2P IS BEST!" Not saying that's how all people who don't like F2P and B2P are, but I have yet, least in my 19 years of living seen why P2P is the way to go when all examples lead otherwise.
One last statement, a great MMO can be great and still not cater to you, once you fellas realize and accept that, maybe then you'll understand why great MMOs are not flying with the p2p method, like there are many great MMOs that don't cater to me but I understand they are actually worth playing, it's also why people don't see me in other game forums that I don't like stating in every thread something negative about the game.
It's why(which this will hurt you guys) GW2/TSW payment model is actually looking a lot better than p2p at the moment.
Tl;dr - It is not the result of going F2P, quite the opposite actually. Take care fellas lol.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
I played WoW up until WotLK, played RoM for 2 years and now Rift.
I am F2P player. I support games when I feel they deserve my money and I want the items enough.
I don't troll, and I don't take kindly to trolls.
Perhaps you feel a F2P games needs to be completely free and everyone should be able to get everything without paying a dime.
And I totally forgot what a amazing F2P game Legend of Zelda was?????
Perhaps try to respond to what I actually said or be somewhat more on topic
Yep. Most people who end up on these forums are here because they don't have an mmo forum to hang out on. That makes for a lot of bitter people who never found a game that worked for them and want to know why. Blaming the market is easy enough.
I have to agree with Rizel here.
There is just too much choice right now and a lot of people feel that committing to just one game via a monthly sub just isnt worth it. Too many games, all pretty much doing the same thing. Back in early 2000 you have what, maybe 4 mainstream MMOs to choose from, each offering a different type of game play from the other. Communities were formed within those games.
Today you have the post WoW era of MMOs. where almost all of the games were built like Walmart - Containing a little bit of everything but in mostly generic form. Many people don't want to commit to Game B because they are already committed to Game A. Why pay for a new game that is simply the same as the current one? This is the reason MMOs decline so fast. Its the 'Been there. Done that' feeling.
Western MMO companies are now trying to find a balance of F2P/Premium hybrid payment models that will allow players access to the game with the option to sub if they find it worth paying for those features or even buying just those features/perks they want when they want them. This is beneficial to the companies because they still make money (which means better chance of good developers keeping jobs and new projects in the future) and the players get to play games they want to play at their own financial pace (Some may make a $5 purchase here or there, others might feel the game is worthy of a $15 sub while others might feel the base game is fine for them with $0)
B2P games are pretty much the same as F2P in the financial sense - but again, mileage may vary depending on the studio.
Basically today we have more options as a player base on what we want to play and how we want to pay.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
Congrats on what :P
I've got some counter questions which are just as truthful I guess.
Have you noticed devs produce less and less quality AAA MMOs ?
Have you noticed devs don't care about community lately?
Have you noticed how they're more and more interested on initial sale numbers?
Have you noticed how devs and publishers don't care about longetivity of a mmo?
Consumers aren't stupid.. I know I'm not going to pay sub price if there's nothing to do when I hit level cap or if there are mayor bugs and half the game which was promised doesn't actually work and stuff like that.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
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sadly the op is not arguing but stating a fact .
Have you notices monthly subscription prices haven't rising in decades? $15/mo
F2P masks the price hike. Super cool mount? $25. Extra bag space? $10/ea. The laundry list goes on and on and when it's all added up, you just paid the equivalent of $50+/mo or left the game if you refuse to pay for the cash shop items.
"As you read these words, a release is seven days or less away or has just happened within the last seven days those are now the only two states youll find the world of Tyria."...Guild Wars 2
And yet everything she is said verifiably false. Interesting.
I bought zelda just like I buy and pay for all the games I play. I just don't buy virtual pixels INSIDE of a game with real money because I'm not a chump that falls for that kind of crap.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
imho it's the result of an over-saturated genre. Way too many games and folks just aren't willing to just stick around long enough to form long term social bonds anymore.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.