I've posted stuff on this subject before and I tend to agree. The issue's the casuals are bringing are stacking up more and more every year. Blizzard didn't have 8 Million subs when they started, it was built on by hardcore players, not casual players, believe me I was there in the beginning. Even back when Vwow started you have the casuals and hardcore but the base player was more hardcore than casual.
Casual players have bitched until leveling was faster, until they could get into any raid because it's just not fair or they should be able to get this or that because they pay monthy subs just like anyone else. Well now they have what they wanted, easy mode on everything, game Dev throwing shit FTP games every month or so just trying to attract the casual players. Well we all see how that's worked out for most of them haven't we? Casual players do not stick with any game, they could really care less because they haven't "invested" anything but maybe an hour or two a few times a week. I'm still waiting on a Dev to flip them off and make a MMO for real gamers, doesn't have to be all hardcore to the max but just not so freaking easy.
Peace,
Lascer
I am calling BS on this. WoW had its massive success because it was friendly to casual players who were unwilling to stick around in the grindtastic games that the hardcore players played.
Casual players stuck around in WoW for years exploring every aspect of the game and only left when the only content left was the hardcore raiding scene. The hardcores were whining and trying to throw their weight around and If Blizzard listened to them, the game would have tanked after the first expansion and never recovered.
Where are the hard core gamers now? Guilds like Paragon. They are doing hard mode raid on WOW
ROFL. When FoH threw a tantrum at SOE, and quit EQ to go to WoW, I laughed my ass off. That would be like Delta Force quitting to do paintball for the rest of their career.
May be they want to play a game to have fun instead of treating it like thankless chores?
I don't think you people understand this thread at all. A 'hardcore' game isn't a game where it takes 4 hours to travel to a quest location that may or may not drop that 1/200 item that respawns eery 4 days. It's not a game where it takes endless grinding to advance or achieve anything in the game, and it's a poor reflection upon most people here to think the difference between casual and hardcore games is the amount of mind-numbing activities compared to the time actively having 'fun'.
What the OP is referring as a 'hardcore' game (and I think that's a pretty bad term but w/e) is for player driven, persistent gameplay that doesen't completly rely on shortcuts for everything. It means a game where people can actually take meaningful decisions and socialize instead of doing the same old scripted dungeons over and over (i.e not your super-hard mode dungeon that is the same thing as the easy one with higher numbers). It means a game where dying isn't just a minor consequence, and where people can actually make a difference in eachother's gameplay (shocking!). None of this requires playing 12 hours a day grinding 25645545 monsters to advance to the next level, or mindlessly walking around doing the exact same content as a 'casual' game except taking 10 times as longer, which the clueless are implying here.
Nobody is also saying this is the 'BEST' model or worst model. It's most certainly not an easy model to develop, and not the most profitable one either. There is something called a niche game that is supposed to appeal to a smaller spectrum of the market, and games like EVE do it very very well. It's actually a good example on a game that can be extremly immersing and 'hardcore' as you all call it, but also doesen't require you to live in front of the computer to enjoy it or progress either.
I don't know why I have to point this out because it all seems very obvious, but there seems to be a lot of (intentional?) derailing about the main topic here (i.e wether you have a job, wife or kids is irrelevant to this thread (and I fail to see why that entitles someone to any credibility in this discussion), because a 'hardcore' game is about depht and not the time you invest into grinding).
I've posted stuff on this subject before and I tend to agree. The issue's the casuals are bringing are stacking up more and more every year. Blizzard didn't have 8 Million subs when they started, it was built on by hardcore players, not casual players, believe me I was there in the beginning. Even back when Vwow started you have the casuals and hardcore but the base player was more hardcore than casual.
Casual players have bitched until leveling was faster, until they could get into any raid because it's just not fair or they should be able to get this or that because they pay monthy subs just like anyone else. Well now they have what they wanted, easy mode on everything, game Dev throwing shit FTP games every month or so just trying to attract the casual players. Well we all see how that's worked out for most of them haven't we? Casual players do not stick with any game, they could really care less because they haven't "invested" anything but maybe an hour or two a few times a week. I'm still waiting on a Dev to flip them off and make a MMO for real gamers, doesn't have to be all hardcore to the max but just not so freaking easy.
Peace,
Lascer
I am calling BS on this. WoW had its massive success because it was friendly to casual players who were unwilling to stick around in the grindtastic games that the hardcore players played.
Casual players stuck around in WoW for years exploring every aspect of the game and only left when the only content left was the hardcore raiding scene. The hardcores were whining and trying to throw their weight around and If Blizzard listened to them, the game would have tanked after the first expansion and never recovered.
I'm supporting Torik on this one. I myself am a casual player (by almost all definitions) and I play the game for my enjoyment. It doesn't matter to me if I level or not during a playing session, as long as I'm enjoying myself (by either socialising, exploration, roleplaying, whatever). It's the hardcore players that are there saying: "Boohoo, I have to grind through the same 1000 levels again for the 5th time, why are there no more starting zones and grind all earlier tiers of raiding to have an alt more powerful than 97% of the whole game population?!?!"
Adjust your views and see that casual people aren't there to rush to endgame and raid and then complain about lack of content. And if you don't believe me, try playing casual for once and not speed through the leveling. Read quests, chat, let go of the easy skinner-box mechanics and immerse yourself into the world. Go play an RPG like it's supposed to be done. (and then watch the static world get prettier just because of your mental state of not being gloomy about the static world)
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Where are the hard core gamers now? Guilds like Paragon. They are doing hard mode raid on WOW
ROFL. When FoH threw a tantrum at SOE, and quit EQ to go to WoW, I laughed my ass off. That would be like Delta Force quitting to do paintball for the rest of their career.
May be they want to play a game to have fun instead of treating it like thankless chores?
Wait; don't 'hardcore' players generally enjoy thankless chores, by definition?
Argh, never mind, not getting into this ancient bear trap of a topic again.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Where are the hard core gamers now? Guilds like Paragon. They are doing hard mode raid on WOW
ROFL. When FoH threw a tantrum at SOE, and quit EQ to go to WoW, I laughed my ass off. That would be like Delta Force quitting to do paintball for the rest of their career.
May be they want to play a game to have fun instead of treating it like thankless chores?
Wait; don't 'hardcore' players generally enjoy thankless chores, by definition?
Argh, never mind, not getting into this ancient bear trap of a topic again.
Apparently EQ is too "thankless" and too much 'chores" even for this group of hardcore.
I don't think you people understand this thread at all. A 'hardcore' game isn't a game where it takes 4 hours to travel to a quest location that may or may not drop that 1/200 item that respawns eery 4 days. It's not a game where it takes endless grinding to advance or achieve anything in the game, and it's a poor reflection upon most people here to think the difference between casual and hardcore games is the amount of mind-numbing activities compared to the time actively having 'fun'.
What the OP is referring as a 'hardcore' game (and I think that's a pretty bad term but w/e) is for player driven, persistent gameplay that doesen't completly rely on shortcuts for everything. It means a game where people can actually take meaningful decisions and socialize instead of doing the same old scripted dungeons over and over (i.e not your super-hard mode dungeon that is the same thing as the easy one with higher numbers). It means a game where dying isn't just a minor consequence, and where people can actually make a difference in eachother's gameplay (shocking!). None of this requires playing 12 hours a day grinding 25645545 monsters to advance to the next level, or mindlessly walking around doing the exact same content as a 'casual' game except taking 10 times as longer, which the clueless are implying here.
Nobody is also saying this is the 'BEST' model or worst model. It's most certainly not an easy model to develop, and not the most profitable one either. There is something called a niche game that is supposed to appeal to a smaller spectrum of the market, and games like EVE do it very very well. It's actually a good example on a game that can be extremly immersing and 'hardcore' as you all call it, but also doesen't require you to live in front of the computer to enjoy it or progress either.
I don't know why I have to point this out because it all seems very obvious, but there seems to be a lot of (intentional?) derailing about the main topic here (i.e wether you have a job, wife or kids is irrelevant to this thread (and I fail to see why that entitles someone to any credibility in this discussion), because a 'hardcore' game is about depht and not the time you invest into grinding).
This is how I see it:
Skill is decision-making and execution. In some games, one or the other side
Challenge is a measure of how much skill is required to avoid failure.
So challenge causes decisions to matter. It creates meaningful decisions.
Penalty is what happens if you fail.
So you can't claim decisions aren't meaningful in a dungeon game like WOW. At the cutting edge of content with appropriate gear, challenge exists, and makes decisions meaningful.
That's also why other players matter -- if the tank, healer, or DPS aren't doing their jobs, it puts more pressure on the other players, and the group as a whole will fail or succeed based on their decisions. But it matters if someone isn't pulling their weight, because it increases the challenge of the task.
You also can't really imply that death penalty makes things any harder -- notice it happens after the skill check and involves no skill itself. Penalty is just penalty. You need a reset to the encounter if you fail it, obviously, but anything past that is just excessive.
As for which gamers are "hardcore", that's obviously based heavily on your definition of hardcore. If being hardcore is just being an avid gamer (my definition) then every game has its hardcore players (and this fits with how most players seem to use the term.) If excessive suffering of penalties makes someone hardcore, well then I guess that's another definition (although I prefer to just call those players masochists.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Luckily "well then don't play MMOs" isn't something most for profit developing companies like to say. They are making a product, if the customer wants causual, the customer gets it.
I consider myself a hardcore gamer (absurd amounts of heroic raid achieves + gladiator when i played WoW, avid Dark souls player, EVE online player, planetside 2 squad leader) and guess what I also happen to play guild wars 2.
This thread is a joke, casuals aren't even slightly hurting the industry lack of innovation is.
I've posted stuff on this subject before and I tend to agree. The issue's the casuals are bringing are stacking up more and more every year. Blizzard didn't have 8 Million subs when they started, it was built on by hardcore players, not casual players, believe me I was there in the beginning. Even back when Vwow started you have the casuals and hardcore but the base player was more hardcore than casual.
Casual players have bitched until leveling was faster, until they could get into any raid because it's just not fair or they should be able to get this or that because they pay monthy subs just like anyone else. Well now they have what they wanted, easy mode on everything, game Dev throwing shit FTP games every month or so just trying to attract the casual players. Well we all see how that's worked out for most of them haven't we? Casual players do not stick with any game, they could really care less because they haven't "invested" anything but maybe an hour or two a few times a week. I'm still waiting on a Dev to flip them off and make a MMO for real gamers, doesn't have to be all hardcore to the max but just not so freaking easy.
Peace,
Lascer
Man you are wrong, the only thing casual players like in games is leveling,after reaching level cap and finding out that there is nothing left but some hardcore raiding then they cancel their account. ¨Those Crying for faster leveling are the hardcore players since they dont want to spend time leveling just want to raid with their friends.
Read some of this. Interesting to see how many definitions of hardcore appeared in just the first three pages. To me Hard-core players like a challenge and hate it when a challenging game is made very easy. Hard-core players like the game and will invest as much time as possible in it. It has nothing to do with having a job vs living in Mom's basement. I think 1 vital part of hard-core gamer is sticking to a game and not game-jumping every time something new comes out. Those who still play the game they started with( or ventured out a little but came back to it) are hardcore. I am not - mostly because My first mmo was shadowbane. I left it and before I came back it died. So shadowbane 2 would have to come out in order for me to be hardcore. just my opinion but though being an end-game raider can be part of hardcore I certainly do not think it is the totality of being hardcore.
The issue isn't about hardcore, softcore or casuals, it's about power. Those who can influence the publishers the most will win. Think money.
If you look at a bell curve, the middle is the most whereas the extremes are the least. Publishers want that thick juicy middle. They will take money from the extremes. The problem with some of the extremes is they think they are more popular than they are but are not objective enough to see it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
Originally posted by nariusseldon Apparently EQ is too "thankless" and too much 'chores" even for this group of hardcore.
Considering how much effort you put into your 100 daily posts here, which no one thanks you for, I would think thankless effort is something that appeals to you.
BTW, EQ was the least thankless game of all. I heard and said the word, "thank you" more times than I can remember.
Originally posted by waynejr2 ...If you look at a bell curve, the middle is the most whereas the extremes are the least. Publishers want that thick juicy middle...
And this is where SOE failed, miserably. Brilliant developers, retarded managers. SoE had the capability to push out amazing content every six months. And 1% of gamers were pushing for that pace; Which had the unfortunate side-effect of alientated the other 99%.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
I consider myself a hardcore gamer (absurd amounts of heroic raid achieves + gladiator when i played WoW, avid Dark souls player, EVE online player, planetside 2 squad leader) and guess what I also happen to play guild wars 2.
This thread is a joke, casuals aren't even slightly hurting the industry lack of innovation is.
What lack of innovations? I found lots of fun new games every year
Originally posted by nariusseldon Apparently EQ is too "thankless" and too much 'chores" even for this group of hardcore.
Considering how much effort you put into your 100 daily posts here, which no one thanks you for, I would think thankless effort is something that appeals to you.
hardcore posting ftw
But yeah, hardcore is in the eye of the beholder. Whether people are hardcore or not, whatever that means, would it be just as relevant to talk about committed vs uncommitted, but then we run into the same problem of how do you define committed.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
I consider myself a hardcore gamer (absurd amounts of heroic raid achieves + gladiator when i played WoW, avid Dark souls player, EVE online player, planetside 2 squad leader) and guess what I also happen to play guild wars 2.
This thread is a joke, casuals aren't even slightly hurting the industry lack of innovation is.
What lack of innovations? I found lots of fun new games every year
PS2
LoL
WoT
Defiance
Destiny
Division
PoE
... each is doing something new & different.
Except defiance and maybe PoE, those are all solid games. What I gathered from this thread was, are casual players hurting the industry and effecting devs decisions, and the answer is no lack of innovation is. Aka, WoW clones etc.
Except defiance and maybe PoE, those are all solid games. What I gathered from this thread was, are casual players hurting the industry and effecting devs decisions, and the answer is no lack of innovation is. Aka, WoW clones etc.
I dunno I'd be pretty satisfied with a WOW clone which "lacks innovation" the way that WOW "didn't innovate" over existing games like EQ1.
So like WOW it would be a game which uses the same exact core formula, but actually exhibits some game design skill, eliminating elements which aren't fun and creating monsters and player abilities which are diverse and deep.
In that respect, none of the current games out there actually copied WOW. (Although I think GW2 actually did and was relatively successful in almost all of their changes, except for failing to provide a reason to keep playing after month #2 or so.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Except defiance and maybe PoE, those are all solid games. What I gathered from this thread was, are casual players hurting the industry and effecting devs decisions, and the answer is no lack of innovation is. Aka, WoW clones etc.
I dunno I'd be pretty satisfied with a WOW clone which "lacks innovation" the way that WOW "didn't innovate" over existing games like EQ1.
So like WOW it would be a game which uses the same exact core formula, but actually exhibits some game design skill, eliminating elements which aren't fun and creating monsters and player abilities which are diverse and deep.
In that respect, none of the current games out there actually copied WOW. (Although I think GW2 actually did and was relatively successful in almost all of their changes, except for failing to provide a reason to keep playing after month #2 or so.)
Its impossible to create another game like that however because of how dated everything about WoW is now. In order to remove those not fun elements and create deeper ones, you'd have to make an entirely new game. Which is why GW2 has impacted the genre quite a bit in my opinion. You already see dynamic events trying to be replicated in FF XIV's FATE system, which is complete garbage by the way, and Wildstar seems to function off a very similar arc swing combat system from the greatsword combat shown at e3, though once they said arenas raids and battlegrounds I already lost hope for the game.
TL,DR The more games we can get that are good enough for other games to want to steal from, the better.
Its impossible to create another game like that however because of how dated everything about WoW is now. In order to remove those not fun elements and create deeper ones, you'd have to make an entirely new game. Which is why GW2 has impacted the genre quite a bit in my opinion. You already see dynamic events trying to be replicated in FF XIV's FATE system, which is complete garbage by the way, and Wildstar seems to function off a very similar arc swing combat system from the greatsword combat shown at e3, though once they said arenas raids and battlegrounds I already lost hope for the game.
TL,DR The more games we can get that are good enough for other games to want to steal from, the better.
It's not impossible, because EQ1 was dated when WOW was released and that didn't stop WOW from being WOW.
It's just that companies often fail to understand the key traits that made Blizzard successful. They copy the skin-deep feature set without copying the methodology that led Blizzard to create WOW. This leads players to believe WOW is being copied, even when the things being copied aren't really what made WOW amazing.
As for arenas, raids, and BGs, it's not like those things are necessarily going to go out of style. Cooperative gameplay (dungeons and raids) is definitely eternal. Players will play it forever in its various forms. Competitive gameplay is eternal too, although it's fair to note the order of popularity goes from the highest: Pure PVP (no non-skill elements: no vertical progression or population advantages) to Hybrid PVP (Arenas/BGs: some progression advantage, no population advantage) to the lowest, Casual PVP (World PVP: progression and population (zerging) advantages.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I play games to have fun, whether that means casual or hardcore it doesn't matter. If i'm having fun i play, if its not fun i dont play. Plus being uber 1337 or whatever in a game so you could flaunt your epeen doesn't really mean anything. Its just a game and games are meant to be enjoyed. Whether that means being the best or thinking you are is up to the beholder, though i could argue your views on enjoyment are possibly flawed.
As for what games can be considered hardcore i'd say Dayz is one of them though its not really hard its interesting rather, though unfortunately the rush it gives you after playing it for awhile quickly fades at least for me.
Demon Souls/Dark Souls is worthy of being a hardcore player magnet. It is definitely challenging though there are builds that dramatically reduce the difficulty.
I cant really think of any more that i have played personally. I'm not playing much now except some Battlefield 3 and LoL here and there, and now that im done with the last of us and theres nothing else really to play I'm doing more things away from the computer.
See I don't have a lot of time to play often (though sometimes I do)
Im a "casual"
I never wanted a super easy game that guaranteed me succeeding at endgame in a month. I never wanted auto statistics on level up, I never wanted the dumbed down "here is the one stat for your class" I never wanted the complexity that forced me to lovingly read for hours about game systems while I was unable to play.
I hate how most games I can hop into fresh, instantly feel familiar, follow the quests to endgame, have my gear fall at my feet, have almost no choices or input...and have no reason to research the game or what I want to do.
I think the mistake wasn't catering to casuals, it was catering to people who don't know they hate RPG games and wanted some bastard child of a fantasy online game mixed with a TPS and an action game. The first gen RPG fans got watered down by these players who don't want to make mistakes or choices or have things that might cause them to read, do math, or learn something. Heaven forbid they have to deal with practicing stuff in order to do it right.
So now if you want to make a game like this, you need to deal with under 10k players, or find a way to suck players out of EVE, a game where they have years worth of account building to keep them attached and a really complicated game system that they learned and successfully mastered...and even with all of the eve players you probably wouldn't have enough to justify spending a lot to make the game.
I don't want to be geared and cleared, having mastered all the game mechanics and systems, in a damn month, while I do dailies while I wait for an expansion to bring me another few weeks of progression. Id much rather have a game that takes a few years to get the hang of, has lots of choices, chances to screw up, complexities...I don't mind farming mobs (now called grind)...yeah I know im a dying breed. I miss games that made you think and plan.
Developers should stop catering so much to casuals and start making content and games that require some sort of thought, some strategy and furthermore teamwork! Also, I hate to hear this "Well I can't play for hours on end grinding for particular gear, so it should be easier!"
Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.
So many things wrong with this post.
Developers are not obligated to cater to anyone just because you say so. if they decide their core audience is now the casuals, it is their prerogative, and they can cater their game to anyone they want.
Secondly, i don't commit to any MMO, and i do play them. They are entertainment products, and i use them as i see fit, not what you think how i should play games. It is the devs that put in great features like LFD .. obviously trying to get my play-time. I don't see any reason not to play a MMO, on short spurts, if it is fun.
But those who say i dont have time still demand all, so where will this end then?
The minute we jump get it all so zero times sink?
Result we hop from game to get get our cookies this takes 20 mins and then stop go watch tv or something else:P
Originally posted by BrownAle See I don't have a lot of time to play often (though sometimes I do)Im a "casual"I never wanted a super easy game that guaranteed me succeeding at endgame in a month.... Id much rather have a game that takes a few years to get the hang of, has lots of choices, chances to screw up, complexities...I don't mind farming mobs (now called grind)...yeah I know im a dying breed.
You aren't a dying breed; far from it. Most posters here speak similarly, and don't let the spam from a select few convince you otherwise.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Developers should stop catering so much to casuals and start making content and games that require some sort of thought, some strategy and furthermore teamwork! Also, I hate to hear this "Well I can't play for hours on end grinding for particular gear, so it should be easier!"
Look, if you don't have the time to commit to an MMO then you shouldn't play an MMO, simple.
So many things wrong with this post.
Developers are not obligated to cater to anyone just because you say so. if they decide their core audience is now the casuals, it is their prerogative, and they can cater their game to anyone they want.
Secondly, i don't commit to any MMO, and i do play them. They are entertainment products, and i use them as i see fit, not what you think how i should play games. It is the devs that put in great features like LFD .. obviously trying to get my play-time. I don't see any reason not to play a MMO, on short spurts, if it is fun.
But those who say i dont have time still demand all, so where will this end then?
The minute we jump get it all so zero times sink?
Result we hop from game to get get our cookies this takes 20 mins and then stop go watch tv or something else:P
"demand" .. i would say we don't demand ... the devs are begging us to play. It is the other way around.
And where will this end? This won't until the money runs out.
And the "result" you mentioned is pretty accurate .. we hop from game to game, have some fun, then move on. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, isn't that what the dev embrace?
Comments
I am calling BS on this. WoW had its massive success because it was friendly to casual players who were unwilling to stick around in the grindtastic games that the hardcore players played.
Casual players stuck around in WoW for years exploring every aspect of the game and only left when the only content left was the hardcore raiding scene. The hardcores were whining and trying to throw their weight around and If Blizzard listened to them, the game would have tanked after the first expansion and never recovered.
May be they want to play a game to have fun instead of treating it like thankless chores?
I don't think you people understand this thread at all. A 'hardcore' game isn't a game where it takes 4 hours to travel to a quest location that may or may not drop that 1/200 item that respawns eery 4 days. It's not a game where it takes endless grinding to advance or achieve anything in the game, and it's a poor reflection upon most people here to think the difference between casual and hardcore games is the amount of mind-numbing activities compared to the time actively having 'fun'.
What the OP is referring as a 'hardcore' game (and I think that's a pretty bad term but w/e) is for player driven, persistent gameplay that doesen't completly rely on shortcuts for everything. It means a game where people can actually take meaningful decisions and socialize instead of doing the same old scripted dungeons over and over (i.e not your super-hard mode dungeon that is the same thing as the easy one with higher numbers). It means a game where dying isn't just a minor consequence, and where people can actually make a difference in eachother's gameplay (shocking!). None of this requires playing 12 hours a day grinding 25645545 monsters to advance to the next level, or mindlessly walking around doing the exact same content as a 'casual' game except taking 10 times as longer, which the clueless are implying here.
Nobody is also saying this is the 'BEST' model or worst model. It's most certainly not an easy model to develop, and not the most profitable one either. There is something called a niche game that is supposed to appeal to a smaller spectrum of the market, and games like EVE do it very very well. It's actually a good example on a game that can be extremly immersing and 'hardcore' as you all call it, but also doesen't require you to live in front of the computer to enjoy it or progress either.
I don't know why I have to point this out because it all seems very obvious, but there seems to be a lot of (intentional?) derailing about the main topic here (i.e wether you have a job, wife or kids is irrelevant to this thread (and I fail to see why that entitles someone to any credibility in this discussion), because a 'hardcore' game is about depht and not the time you invest into grinding).
I'm supporting Torik on this one. I myself am a casual player (by almost all definitions) and I play the game for my enjoyment. It doesn't matter to me if I level or not during a playing session, as long as I'm enjoying myself (by either socialising, exploration, roleplaying, whatever). It's the hardcore players that are there saying: "Boohoo, I have to grind through the same 1000 levels again for the 5th time, why are there no more starting zones and grind all earlier tiers of raiding to have an alt more powerful than 97% of the whole game population?!?!"
Adjust your views and see that casual people aren't there to rush to endgame and raid and then complain about lack of content. And if you don't believe me, try playing casual for once and not speed through the leveling. Read quests, chat, let go of the easy skinner-box mechanics and immerse yourself into the world. Go play an RPG like it's supposed to be done. (and then watch the static world get prettier just because of your mental state of not being gloomy about the static world)
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." - John F. Kennedy
And for MMORPGs ever so true...
Wait; don't 'hardcore' players generally enjoy thankless chores, by definition?
Argh, never mind, not getting into this ancient bear trap of a topic again.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Apparently EQ is too "thankless" and too much 'chores" even for this group of hardcore.
This is how I see it:
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I consider myself a hardcore gamer (absurd amounts of heroic raid achieves + gladiator when i played WoW, avid Dark souls player, EVE online player, planetside 2 squad leader) and guess what I also happen to play guild wars 2.
This thread is a joke, casuals aren't even slightly hurting the industry lack of innovation is.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
Man you are wrong, the only thing casual players like in games is leveling,after reaching level cap and finding out that there is nothing left but some hardcore raiding then they cancel their account. ¨Those Crying for faster leveling are the hardcore players since they dont want to spend time leveling just want to raid with their friends.
Currently bored with MMO's.
The issue isn't about hardcore, softcore or casuals, it's about power. Those who can influence the publishers the most will win. Think money.
If you look at a bell curve, the middle is the most whereas the extremes are the least. Publishers want that thick juicy middle. They will take money from the extremes. The problem with some of the extremes is they think they are more popular than they are but are not objective enough to see it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Considering how much effort you put into your 100 daily posts here, which no one thanks you for, I would think thankless effort is something that appeals to you.
BTW, EQ was the least thankless game of all. I heard and said the word, "thank you" more times than I can remember.
And this is where SOE failed, miserably. Brilliant developers, retarded managers. SoE had the capability to push out amazing content every six months. And 1% of gamers were pushing for that pace; Which had the unfortunate side-effect of alientated the other 99%.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
What lack of innovations? I found lots of fun new games every year
PS2
LoL
WoT
Defiance
Destiny
Division
PoE
... each is doing something new & different.
hardcore posting ftw
But yeah, hardcore is in the eye of the beholder. Whether people are hardcore or not, whatever that means, would it be just as relevant to talk about committed vs uncommitted, but then we run into the same problem of how do you define committed.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Except defiance and maybe PoE, those are all solid games. What I gathered from this thread was, are casual players hurting the industry and effecting devs decisions, and the answer is no lack of innovation is. Aka, WoW clones etc.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
I dunno I'd be pretty satisfied with a WOW clone which "lacks innovation" the way that WOW "didn't innovate" over existing games like EQ1.
So like WOW it would be a game which uses the same exact core formula, but actually exhibits some game design skill, eliminating elements which aren't fun and creating monsters and player abilities which are diverse and deep.
In that respect, none of the current games out there actually copied WOW. (Although I think GW2 actually did and was relatively successful in almost all of their changes, except for failing to provide a reason to keep playing after month #2 or so.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Its impossible to create another game like that however because of how dated everything about WoW is now. In order to remove those not fun elements and create deeper ones, you'd have to make an entirely new game. Which is why GW2 has impacted the genre quite a bit in my opinion. You already see dynamic events trying to be replicated in FF XIV's FATE system, which is complete garbage by the way, and Wildstar seems to function off a very similar arc swing combat system from the greatsword combat shown at e3, though once they said arenas raids and battlegrounds I already lost hope for the game.
TL,DR The more games we can get that are good enough for other games to want to steal from, the better.
Played-Everything
Playing-LoL
It's not impossible, because EQ1 was dated when WOW was released and that didn't stop WOW from being WOW.
It's just that companies often fail to understand the key traits that made Blizzard successful. They copy the skin-deep feature set without copying the methodology that led Blizzard to create WOW. This leads players to believe WOW is being copied, even when the things being copied aren't really what made WOW amazing.
As for arenas, raids, and BGs, it's not like those things are necessarily going to go out of style. Cooperative gameplay (dungeons and raids) is definitely eternal. Players will play it forever in its various forms. Competitive gameplay is eternal too, although it's fair to note the order of popularity goes from the highest: Pure PVP (no non-skill elements: no vertical progression or population advantages) to Hybrid PVP (Arenas/BGs: some progression advantage, no population advantage) to the lowest, Casual PVP (World PVP: progression and population (zerging) advantages.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I play games to have fun, whether that means casual or hardcore it doesn't matter. If i'm having fun i play, if its not fun i dont play. Plus being uber 1337 or whatever in a game so you could flaunt your epeen doesn't really mean anything. Its just a game and games are meant to be enjoyed. Whether that means being the best or thinking you are is up to the beholder, though i could argue your views on enjoyment are possibly flawed.
As for what games can be considered hardcore i'd say Dayz is one of them though its not really hard its interesting rather, though unfortunately the rush it gives you after playing it for awhile quickly fades at least for me.
Demon Souls/Dark Souls is worthy of being a hardcore player magnet. It is definitely challenging though there are builds that dramatically reduce the difficulty.
I cant really think of any more that i have played personally. I'm not playing much now except some Battlefield 3 and LoL here and there, and now that im done with the last of us and theres nothing else really to play I'm doing more things away from the computer.
See I don't have a lot of time to play often (though sometimes I do)
Im a "casual"
I never wanted a super easy game that guaranteed me succeeding at endgame in a month. I never wanted auto statistics on level up, I never wanted the dumbed down "here is the one stat for your class" I never wanted the complexity that forced me to lovingly read for hours about game systems while I was unable to play.
I hate how most games I can hop into fresh, instantly feel familiar, follow the quests to endgame, have my gear fall at my feet, have almost no choices or input...and have no reason to research the game or what I want to do.
I think the mistake wasn't catering to casuals, it was catering to people who don't know they hate RPG games and wanted some bastard child of a fantasy online game mixed with a TPS and an action game. The first gen RPG fans got watered down by these players who don't want to make mistakes or choices or have things that might cause them to read, do math, or learn something. Heaven forbid they have to deal with practicing stuff in order to do it right.
So now if you want to make a game like this, you need to deal with under 10k players, or find a way to suck players out of EVE, a game where they have years worth of account building to keep them attached and a really complicated game system that they learned and successfully mastered...and even with all of the eve players you probably wouldn't have enough to justify spending a lot to make the game.
I don't want to be geared and cleared, having mastered all the game mechanics and systems, in a damn month, while I do dailies while I wait for an expansion to bring me another few weeks of progression. Id much rather have a game that takes a few years to get the hang of, has lots of choices, chances to screw up, complexities...I don't mind farming mobs (now called grind)...yeah I know im a dying breed. I miss games that made you think and plan.
But those who say i dont have time still demand all, so where will this end then?
The minute we jump get it all so zero times sink?
Result we hop from game to get get our cookies this takes 20 mins and then stop go watch tv or something else:P
You aren't a dying breed; far from it. Most posters here speak similarly, and don't let the spam from a select few convince you otherwise.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
"demand" .. i would say we don't demand ... the devs are begging us to play. It is the other way around.
And where will this end? This won't until the money runs out.
And the "result" you mentioned is pretty accurate .. we hop from game to game, have some fun, then move on. Nothing wrong with that. In fact, isn't that what the dev embrace?