initially i was interested in the LOTR mmorpg but after i read up on it i was just let down. i personally wanted some PvP and to even try the "darker" races/sepcies of characters. i hope the game turns out to be a great addition to the mmorpg world. i will give this game credit for one thing, at least they are letting people know what to expect before you purchase the game (PvP, race/species lock). SWG did the opposite and is crumbling as we speak. i will definatley check out LOTR online, when it comes out in reviews. Only then will we know who was right.
Arnott Nostromo - SWG/MBH dead because of SOE's NGE
Kreeping Death - City of Villians and is canceled due to a horrid lack of depth
Padan Fain - UO/TH still going strong (old habits are hard to break)
Originally posted by Neymoze This game will totall suck, because you can only play the good side (no orc, uruk-hai, goblin,troll etc) A mmorpg without a nice pvp and only a good side just sux....
you are just one of those people that are always killing the new players, trying to get them out of the game, so you can have more room for yourself, eat a saltlick and go play your little PvP game, enough said.
The wonderful thing about this game is that, because of the lack of PVP (and therefore the instant gratification of self-absorbed kids), the resulting MMORPG might achieve a first: one that a more mature-minded players can reside in gankless peace.
I have played most of the major fantasy-oriented games and I get sick and tired of seeing players not roleplay, ganking and generally being obnoxious and giving "noobs" a hard time to make themselves feel better about their otherwise dreary lives. In many of the games it's not worth trying to get into the PVP because everyone else expects you to be an instant expert and know exactly how to do everything they do. By the time you've figured it out, you've generally been dumped or ganked. too many of the other MMORPG games are geared towards the "leet" crowd often, in my opinion, at the cost of other (often less regular) players.
Though the jury is still out as to whether a game can survive without some sort of PVP component to it.
In the meantime, it will be wonderful to have a world without them where people really do roleplay and actually give a crap about more than just becoming uber powerful morons who ruin the game for everyone else.
I wonder what will happen when they become adults...scary thought
Originally posted by darkenoir The wonderful thing about this game is that, because of the lack of PVP (and therefore the instant gratification of self-absorbed kids), the resulting MMORPG might achieve a first: one that a more mature-minded players can reside in gankless peace. I have played most of the major fantasy-oriented games and I get sick and tired of seeing players not roleplay, ganking and generally being obnoxious and giving "noobs" a hard time to make themselves feel better about their otherwise dreary lives. In many of the games it's not worth trying to get into the PVP because everyone else expects you to be an instant expert and know exactly how to do everything they do. By the time you've figured it out, you've generally been dumped or ganked. too many of the other MMORPG games are geared towards the "leet" crowd often, in my opinion, at the cost of other (often less regular) players. Though the jury is still out as to whether a game can survive without some sort of PVP component to it. In the meantime, it will be wonderful to have a world without them where people really do roleplay and actually give a crap about more than just becoming uber powerful morons who ruin the game for everyone else. I wonder what will happen when they become adults...scary thought Good riddance. Flame away!
I've often had the conversation with people while playing WoW that 'Barrens Chat' is possibly the future of humankind. Now that's a scary thought...
As for f**ktards like Neymoze and the other 'omfg no PvP ftl wtf lol!!' losers, the reason they're coming here and bitching about no PvP and not leaving off and going and getting involved in the Darkfall community if cos I highly doubt they would handle that PvP anyways. If there's no opportunity for them to 10 on 2 gank people, hunt down newbies, hassle people who like you said aren't "instant experts", and generally destroy someone else's day, they're not interested. I would love to know the % of these uber anti-carebear types who quit an open PvP game after getting ganked by three others and losing that Sword of L337ness they camped for 5 days to get.
And "...make themselves feel better about their otherwise dreary lives" hahaha. This is great. I know for a fact that due to knee operations and the subsequent lack of mobility, I have no life. And thinking on my state of affairs, then adding to this thought process someone who can't spell (or worse yet go out of their way not to spell properly) and are so anti-people that they want to be able to gank, enjoy destroying other peoples' fun and act like complete dipsh*ts, well that sure does add up to one sad, sad person...
And knowing they won't be around this game sure does sound good to me. Though I personally probably won't be playing it. Not sure yet..
*deep breath* Aaaah there's my "You're a f**ktard, f**k off and die!* rant out of the way for today
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush. Oh. My. God.
I do not particularly enjoy PvP, but I think it is an important option to have in a successful MMORPG. The rift between RP/PvE and PvP players is nothing new. RPers are more concerned with protocol, style, and story development. PvPers are more tactile, hands-on, and often number crunchers. Both types of players are very intelligent, but reason from different sides of the brain. I would certainly play this game and enjoy it, but I also see why PvPers are disappointed.
War is an important theme in LoTR. A PvE game can recreate that experience well enough for me, but fighting NPCs is not the same as fighting an opponent who can think, adapt, and react like you. You will always have players who need that thrill in order to enjoy a game. They are not necessarily gankers and griefers - they are just different from the more formalistic RPer.
So really, you shouldn't be surprised if PvP players and RPers don't get along. They are two different (but legitimate) perspectives on how RPG games should be designed. I am old, so I am just pointing out why this conversation won't go anywhere. You just have to respect that some people reason differently.
Originally posted by Audrielle I do not particularly enjoy PvP, but I think it is an important option to have in a successful MMORPG. The rift between RP/PvE and PvP players is nothing new. RPers are more concerned with protocol, style, and story development. PvPers are more tactile, hands-on, and often number crunchers. Both types of players are very intelligent, but reason from different sides of the brain. I would certainly play this game and enjoy it, but I also see why PvPers are disappointed. War is an important theme in LoTR. A PvE game can recreate that experience well enough for me, but fighting NPCs is not the same as fighting an opponent who can think, adapt, and react like you. You will always have players who need that thrill in order to enjoy a game. They are not necessarily gankers and griefers - they are just different from the more formalistic RPer. So really, you shouldn't be surprised if PvP players and RPers don't get along. They are two different (but legitimate) perspectives on how RPG games should be designed. I am old, so I am just pointing out why this conversation won't go anywhere. You just have to respect that some people reason differently.
What you say make sense. I am not a pvp lover either though i have dabbled in it. When it is tactical and organized i have enjoyed it. The main problem that rper's have with pvper's is that they think every game should be designed to suit them. All the rper's have ever asked is for one game to be designed for rping. The majority of games are designed for pvping and satisfying them, but they are not the only ones who game. I personally have nothing against them or wish to argue with them. There is a all out pvp game coming out, Darkfall. It has been my expirience that the majority of pvper's are young kids, I could be wrong on that assumption, but i am willing to bet i am not.
Yes we are two differant breeds of gamers and though each feels they are the majority of gaming world there is no real way to tell. With almost every game out there a pvp based or related game it would appear that the pvper's are the majority. I think turbine is banking on the idea that they aren't and that there are just as many rper's out there.
No we will never agree on what makes a great game, and just because either side says that if the game isn't catered to them the game will fail does not make it true. This game will bring in people who have probably never played a online game or have tried one and quit because of pvp or lack of rping. There is no real way to tell until the game is released and the numbers of players is known.
While the OP didnt expand on his thoughts, and many called him a ganker for no reason, he is absolutely right IMO.
Its just you versus the NPCs, no other challenges, no other worries, and it doesn't really seem like they intend to change that. They had the perfect setup, and completely droped the ball far as im concerned. How hard was it to setup some evil char. that people could play. The lore/story all there for them. The creative artwork was also mostly already depicted..Baffle. I really just cant believe they went the direction they did with this game. Poor...its just a p*** poor interpretation for MMO viability.
Originally posted by Varcan While the OP didnt expand on his thoughts, and many called him a ganker for no reason, he is absolutely right IMO. Its just you versus the NPCs, no other challenges, no other worries, and it doesn't really seem like they intend to change that. They had the perfect setup, and completely droped the ball far as im concerned. How hard was it to setup some evil char. that people could play. The lore/story all there for them. The creative artwork was also mostly already depicted..Baffle. I really just cant believe they went the direction they did with this game. Poor...its just a p*** poor interpretation for MMO viability. /slumbersOffinDisapointment
They thought long and hard about there decision to exclude pvp and playable evil races. According to the lore of the books the evil races all answered to sauron and had no free will, they gave that up when they choose to follow him. Orcs being a mockery of elfs are creatures who by nature are cowardly and fear sunlight. If you were to play one you would be subjected to only playing at night. Trolls would be the same way. There is not enough info in the books lore wise to base a caracter of evil men off of. You wonder why they just don't do whatever they want and make up whatever they want is easy to answer. There is a thing called a license which was granted to them by Tolkien Enterprise and in securing this license they had to agree to certain stipulations and they are answerable to TE for these stipulations. If they were to do anything that were to go against the license that they were awarded TE could pull the license thus ending the game. I understand that you are disappointed and it justifiable. You have certain expectations for the games that you play and when a game doesn't meet them it is disappointing. I am sure that you see no reason why they can't do anything they want. But you are not a business trying to make money on a title that has stipulations to a license that can be yanked if you break it. Turbine did not drop the ball, they are sticking to the lore of the books and the story. Show me anywere in the LoTR were you have elfs killing hobbits or dwarves killing men. I am sure you do not see things the way i or many others do. If you have never read the books i would like to recommend that you do. Then maybe you will be able to understand were the rest of us are coming from. There is so much more to the lore and the story than pvp, which isn't even part of the story.
Explain to me how they had the perfect setup to support pvp. When the only real playable races that the story or the lore support is the free races of middle earth. When that is what the books are about, the struggle of the free races to overcome temptation. There is not enough about the evil races in the lore or the story to support them being playable. And it was never in tolkiens lore for the free races to fight and kill each other.
Well since many already moaned about the non-existent pvp - and get called 'gankers, griefers' from the other front, I'd like to add my 2 cents too
I am an adult person, almost 30 years old. I played quite a few MMORPG's now, and I never had that intend to 'gank' just anyone for no reason at all. So its a game with only good sided chars available - well to speak out of my experience - what is the essence of a game to have only NPC opponents? Alone that is a pretty linear gameplay and won't have the features (good vs evol) that many games alrdy have since years.
Well the worst is indeed the lack in pvp. You can call me now a ganker, for just missing pvp in a game, what is 1: shortminded and ignorance and 2: stoopid, since you dont know me at all
There is no need to make PVP in all areas possible, but to dont bring it in any kind into the game would be a big loss...
I only say 1 thing...
AI CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER MATCH HUMAN TACTICS / INTELLIGENCE
So only pvp brings you unexpected challenge, specially at max lvl where the most endgame concepts relays on pvp.
I had max chars in DAOC, i have several 220ish in Anarchy Online and so on - what would be the essence of lvling those toons to max if i cant get a 'real' challenge against human intelligence?
Maybe you understand now why pvp in a MMORPG should be and that it is NOT because of gankers, griefers and w/e.
Well u can flame me now too with useless arguments and insulting me, i only offered MY opinion, make your own, but think about what i said before you start to flame me
I do not believe that all pvper's are gankers or griefers, Just like i do not believe all games are ment for pvp. I do not purposely flame anyone on these threads. Everyone has there opinion on what makes a good game and how the lack of such things will be bad for the game. Most people here who support no pvp are true tolkien fans who want to see a true interpitation of middle earth. Lot of people do not see how playing a game that is PVE only can be fun. It too me depends on the game content. I am perfectly happy doing the quests and exploring that which i have always dreamed of exploring.
I understand that you play games for the challenge and you see no reason on lvling your caracter if you can't have the ultimate challenge that you seek. I as many others are content with the other side of the game play. I have dabbled in pvp and though i found it a rush it was not the type of game play i prefer. This is a subject that neither side will come to a middle ground on.
I am not flaming anyone or lableing them or putting them down for there believes. All i ask in return is that they don't do the same to me. I accept and understand why they believe the way that they do. At this time in the recent chooses of games that we have AI does not compare to a human abilities. But I would say that with the advancements that we make in technology that one day it will. I know this is probably considered as a non popular idea. I have no idea when such a thing will occur if it ever does. Cause i could be wrong and just very hopeful.
Some players like the OP feel that a game without PvP is not worth playing. Fine, that's their choice and nobody should deride them them making it, but it doesn't mean that a game that leaves out their #1 feature is automatically going to be rubbish or unpopular. The MMO genre is big enough to hold a wide range of full, partial and zero PvP games. It may be a shame if a favourite IP of yours gets developed in a way you don't like, but that problem crops up no matter what world type you prefer. For instance I'll always miss the Warhammer Online that might have been, before Mythic turned it into a RvR PvP game.
At the moment Turbine have said that players will not inflict harm on other players, which implies that even duelling is out of the picture, but they say they have some innovative ways of injecting competitive play into the game. We will just have to see what they announce in the coming months. I expect they'll want to make a big splash at E3 unless they've given up any plans to release the game before next summer.
Every time I read "i dont like this game no bad side or pvp!!!111!!eleven11!" it makes me so happy because I know the game won't be populated "1337" jerks like most of the population in WoW. Yes the game doesn't have PvP now staw away!
The funny thing is, RP-only games have problems of their own. There is immaturity, jealousy, squabbling, and elitism that you will always run into. I guess people always need to have something to fight over, even if it's not real.
Originally posted by Audrielle The funny thing is, RP-only games have problems of their own. There is immaturity, jealousy, squabbling, and elitism that you will always run into. I guess people always need to have something to fight over, even if it's not real.
Yes everygame has it's problems. You get people who like rp games because they can KS other people and not worry about getting killed by them. You get people who bad mouth others. This is more of a relflection on the person playing the game than the game itself. Lot of people assoiate this type of behavior with the leet pvp crowd. Not all leet players to say are pvp fantatics. Some are just the type of person who gets there jollies from ruining anothers experience in the game. So yes i agree with you. This game though rp only will get it's fair share of immature, bickering, and elitism.
Originally posted by Wushuscholar I have to agree about no pvp, without pvp the game is just going to be a multiplayer storybook with no role play added in. It is the primary downfall of all mmo's. so in order to roleplay you have to be able to gank the nearest player and turn on your /spit macro as quick as you can? i think you have a very narrow view of what a MMO is, and can be........ without pvp. Without players playing the oppositions the world cannot evolve past what the designers made, the game will simply be a massive multiplayer console style rpg, you simply changed from 1-4 players to thousands. new to MMO's are ya? Killing NPC's and being all about that just makes no sense when you think about the fact there is no recognition of heroism aside from by an npc, which all of these npc's are just little scripts in the program! i'm sorry... your point? oh.. you don't have one? well let me make one for you. the problem with PVP is that everyone complains until steam shoots out their ears because everyone else has the chance to beat them. so classes get nerfed, and others get buffed. unbalancing another part of the game. this goes on for years and years without end. a game without pvp does not have to worry about petty problems such as balancing for pvp, and the developers can focus more on the GAME! and it's CONTENT! Your throwing away chances of massive battles over middle earth, quests that actually mean something, seriously I cannot grasp whatsoever being as veteran of an mmo gamer why anyone would want to degress to the state of not even playing an online game at all. well it's online... it's with thousands of other players. yep it fits the bill of Massivley Multiplayer Online. i don't know exactly where you were going with this part of your argument.. the best i could come up with is you had some extra gas in your ass to let out, and this was the best you could muster up. at least in a 1 player final fantasy a person can feel like its solely his/her storyline! Sure there are more aspects of these games than pvp but taking it out is by far one of the most idiotic things of all time. again.... i'm getting hardly nothing from this.. from what i can tell your saying that because there is no pvp you will somehow through cosmic disturbance of the pvp gods be stopped from enjoying any of the storyline or content? Oh and this NONSENSE about the enemies being without a will is just silly, That just makes more for the player to role play! The biggest problem with mmo's is that people get the game and do not rp! If you wanna make a Middle earth Level Grinder be my guest but it takes the entire point of of an mmo! really.. i'm getting tired of explaining the same thing over and over.. and over.... and over........ and over... because you keep saying the same thing over.. and over.. and over.. and over... and over...... and over. if you want pvp go get a game that has pvp that actually fits the game Lets fight for territories, make powerful wizards.. take the level grinding out to some degree and fill the game with exciting things, make the quests long epics that give several levels along the way and eventually a herioc level of recognition. you really don't know anything about LOTR or the game for that matter do you? MMO's have gone so downhill, time to wake up! Wushuscholar
I only say 1 thing... AI CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER MATCH HUMAN TACTICS / INTELLIGENCE So only pvp brings you unexpected challenge, specially at max lvl where the most endgame concepts relays on pvp.
Human tactics/intelligence in pvp is just spamming your current best attacks until either you win, die, or run away... whats so difficult/mysterious about that? you think a developer couldnt code an npc to spam his best attack?
nothing is unexpected to anyone that has pvped atleast twice against every class in a game, because everyone uses the same "best tactic" every time. after a while it's just like fighting buffed up npc's.
I only say 1 thing... AI CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER MATCH HUMAN TACTICS / INTELLIGENCE So only pvp brings you unexpected challenge, specially at max lvl where the most endgame concepts relays on pvp.
Human tactics/intelligence in pvp is just spamming your current best attacks until either you win, die, or run away... whats so difficult/mysterious about that? you think a developer couldnt code an npc to spam his best attack?
nothing is unexpected to anyone that has pvped atleast twice against every class in a game, because everyone uses the same "best tactic" every time. after a while it's just like fighting buffed up npc's.
I agree with you here. What i think he is refering too is that a npc will not turn tuck his tail between his leg and runn like a coward when getting beat, but instead will stand there and take a beating. I have pvp'd in games and this is a tactic that alot of them use. When faced with loosing they will run making you chase them until they can heal themselves or wear you down from distance attacks. Which i don't think would be too hard to program a AI to do.
I only say 1 thing... AI CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER MATCH HUMAN TACTICS / INTELLIGENCE So only pvp brings you unexpected challenge, specially at max lvl where the most endgame concepts relays on pvp.
Human tactics/intelligence in pvp is just spamming your current best attacks until either you win, die, or run away... whats so difficult/mysterious about that? you think a developer couldnt code an npc to spam his best attack?
nothing is unexpected to anyone that has pvped atleast twice against every class in a game, because everyone uses the same "best tactic" every time. after a while it's just like fighting buffed up npc's.
I agree with you here. What i think he is refering too is that a npc will not turn tuck his tail between his leg and runn like a coward when getting beat, but instead will stand there and take a beating. I have pvp'd in games and this is a tactic that alot of them use. When faced with loosing they will run making you chase them until they can heal themselves or wear you down from distance attacks. Which i don't think would be too hard to program a AI to do.
world of warcraft uses the same system for most of it's "intelligent" humanoid mobs. what i'm saying is tho to the "pvp must be the main focus of every MMO released" crowd.. is that pvp at the very begining is a challenge yes.. but after the first few fights it's the same ole same ole. and thats the problem with turn based MMO's that are centered around PVP as the main challenge. everything else in the game is a joke then.. a game without pvp can focus more on creating more challenges in the PVE realm.. challenges that rank right up there with the first few times you pvp in other games.
point is.. the devs have decided pvp is not for this game. that should be the end of it. making long winded posts on why you like pvp in games is not going to change that. i personally am glad the devs are sticking to the Tolkien lore than breaking and giving in to the minority of players like *cough* SWG and Jedi *cough*.
I am not pleased with Turbine for changing Middle Earth Online to Lord of thing Rings Online. What could have been a massive world full of potential has turned into every geeks fantasy of living out the books. This is rediculous. If you think the only evil in the world is Sauron then you're seriously living in a fairytale. I can understand not allowing us to play as certain races but to say that to be a human or an elf or a dwarf is to be innately good is a laughable proposition. Want to know the real reason there is no pvp? Turbine is trying to create a game that appeals to a wide audience and they are succeeding at that, but in the process destroying what I consider to be the most important characteristic of any good MMORPG - The ability to choose.
It is ironic, instead of progressing they are regressing in this area. Ever since MMORPGs hit the mainstream, games seems to add more and more restrictions as to what a player can and can't do.
I am not big on pvp. I just think a player should have the choice to decide what type of character he or she will play. Though I'm not afraid to admit with the sheer lack of conscious that comes with being on the internet this is an unrealistic vision.
Originally posted by pb1285n I am not pleased with Turbine for changing Middle Earth Online to Lord of thing Rings Online. What could have been a massive world full of potential has turned into every geeks fantasy of living out the books. This is rediculous. If you think the only evil in the world is Sauron then you're seriously living in a fairytale. I can understand not allowing us to play as certain races but to say that to be a human or an elf or a dwarf is to be innately good is a laughable proposition. Want to know the real reason there is no pvp? Turbine is trying to create a game that appeals to a wide audience and they are succeeding at that, but in the process destroying what I consider to be the most important characteristic of any good MMORPG - The ability to choose. It is ironic, instead of progressing they are regressing in this area. Ever since MMORPGs hit the mainstream, games seems to add more and more restrictions as to what a player can and can't do. I am not big on pvp. I just think a player should have the choice to decide what type of character he or she will play. Though I'm not afraid to admit with the sheer lack of conscious that comes with being on the internet this is an unrealistic vision. Oh well...
None of us are saying that to be human, elf or dwarve is to be inately good. What we are saying and what turbine is saying is that the story is about the FREE PEOPLE VS SAURON AND HIS FOLLOWERS. Of course there are evil men, I am not sure about elves or dwarves though since i can't recall any real solid examples of were they are. So you know why turbine has made there decision for no pvp. Do you personally have a in that no other does. Do you constantly talk with the devs and know them personally? No one can say for postive why they made the decision other than the devs.
You're funny... you're well thought out post died when you tried to get me with your "do you know the devs?" arguement.
Maybe you didn't know but the original project was meant to be about life in middle earth not the war against Sauron. It was changed after Turbine bought the project, much to the dismay of many of the original fans. They changed everything right down to the name, to boost the hype and pick up new customers, without a care for the old fans who had been around since the beginning. They are trying to appeal to the masses, and it is widely believed the average gamers dislike a pvp-oriented game. I am not saying this is a bad thing, to each his own. That is all besides the point anyway.
The arguement that there won't pvp because it's suppose to be about the war against Sauron is weak because if that was the case Hobbits wouldn't be a playable race at all. How many hobbits do you think took part in the war?
I have been around since back when this game was MEO and i was upset that they changed the name. I know about all the changes. I know what this game originally was suppose to be like And the devs have explained in the official forums the reasoning for them making the changes. To the extent that they feel i would guess is needed. You may be right for there reasoning. But unless you can prove what you say it is just your opinion. You may see the devs say so as being weak but hey they are the ones making the game, they have the final say so. Now their exact reasons our known only by them and the company they work for. My point in my thread is unless you know the reasons and heard it from a dev or the company your opinion is hear say. You are assuming that this is why they did what they did and to state it as fact on these forums is missleading.
The reason they gave for no pvp is that it doesn't fit in the lore of the books to have the free people of middle earth killing each other. One thing is a fact not everyone will agree upon the reasons for or against pvp in this game.
Originally posted by Qwirk 2. Yes, the movies were nice. Now go read the novels -- you'll be blown away. The movies were only one interpretation, and limited. With your own mind yopu'll see a much more vibrant world than Jackson did.
Novels? You do know what a novel is right? A Short story.
Originally posted by pb1285n I am not pleased with Turbine for changing Middle Earth Online to Lord of thing Rings Online. What could have been a massive world full of potential has turned into every geeks fantasy of living out the books. This is rediculous. If you think the only evil in the world is Sauron then you're seriously living in a fairytale. I can understand not allowing us to play as certain races but to say that to be a human or an elf or a dwarf is to be innately good is a laughable proposition. Want to know the real reason there is no pvp? Turbine is trying to create a game that appeals to a wide audience and they are succeeding at that, but in the process destroying what I consider to be the most important characteristic of any good MMORPG - The ability to choose. It is ironic, instead of progressing they are regressing in this area. Ever since MMORPGs hit the mainstream, games seems to add more and more restrictions as to what a player can and can't do. I am not big on pvp. I just think a player should have the choice to decide what type of character he or she will play. Though I'm not afraid to admit with the sheer lack of conscious that comes with being on the internet this is an unrealistic vision. Oh well...
turbine has made there decision for no pvp.
Because they are too incompetent and to lazy to incorporate it into the game. Same as with DDO.
Comments
i personally wanted some PvP and to even try the "darker" races/sepcies of characters. i
hope the game turns out to be a great addition to the mmorpg world. i will give this game
credit for one thing, at least they are letting people know what to expect before you
purchase the game (PvP, race/species lock). SWG did the opposite and is crumbling as we
speak. i will definatley check out LOTR online, when it comes out in reviews. Only then will
we know who was right.
Arnott Nostromo - SWG/MBH dead because of SOE's NGE
Kreeping Death - City of Villians and is canceled due to a horrid lack of depth
Padan Fain - UO/TH still going strong (old habits are hard to break)
The wonderful thing about this game is that, because of the lack of PVP (and therefore the instant gratification of self-absorbed kids), the resulting MMORPG might achieve a first: one that a more mature-minded players can reside in gankless peace.
I have played most of the major fantasy-oriented games and I get sick and tired of seeing players not roleplay, ganking and generally being obnoxious and giving "noobs" a hard time to make themselves feel better about their otherwise dreary lives. In many of the games it's not worth trying to get into the PVP because everyone else expects you to be an instant expert and know exactly how to do everything they do. By the time you've figured it out, you've generally been dumped or ganked. too many of the other MMORPG games are geared towards the "leet" crowd often, in my opinion, at the cost of other (often less regular) players.
Though the jury is still out as to whether a game can survive without some sort of PVP component to it.
In the meantime, it will be wonderful to have a world without them where people really do roleplay and actually give a crap about more than just becoming uber powerful morons who ruin the game for everyone else.
I wonder what will happen when they become adults...scary thought
Good riddance. Flame away!
As for f**ktards like Neymoze and the other 'omfg no PvP ftl wtf lol!!' losers, the reason they're coming here and bitching about no PvP and not leaving off and going and getting involved in the Darkfall community if cos I highly doubt they would handle that PvP anyways.
If there's no opportunity for them to 10 on 2 gank people, hunt down newbies, hassle people who like you said aren't "instant experts", and generally destroy someone else's day, they're not interested.
I would love to know the % of these uber anti-carebear types who quit an open PvP game after getting ganked by three others and losing that Sword of L337ness they camped for 5 days to get.
And "...make themselves feel better about their otherwise dreary lives" hahaha. This is great. I know for a fact that due to knee operations and the subsequent lack of mobility, I have no life. And thinking on my state of affairs, then adding to this thought process someone who can't spell (or worse yet go out of their way not to spell properly) and are so anti-people that they want to be able to gank, enjoy destroying other peoples' fun and act like complete dipsh*ts, well that sure does add up to one sad, sad person...
And knowing they won't be around this game sure does sound good to me. Though I personally probably won't be playing it. Not sure yet..
*deep breath* Aaaah there's my "You're a f**ktard, f**k off and die!* rant out of the way for today
"(The) Iraqi people owe the American people a huge debt of gratitude." - George W Bush.
Oh. My. God.
I do not particularly enjoy PvP, but I think it is an important option to have in a successful MMORPG. The rift between RP/PvE and PvP players is nothing new. RPers are more concerned with protocol, style, and story development. PvPers are more tactile, hands-on, and often number crunchers. Both types of players are very intelligent, but reason from different sides of the brain. I would certainly play this game and enjoy it, but I also see why PvPers are disappointed.
War is an important theme in LoTR. A PvE game can recreate that experience well enough for me, but fighting NPCs is not the same as fighting an opponent who can think, adapt, and react like you. You will always have players who need that thrill in order to enjoy a game. They are not necessarily gankers and griefers - they are just different from the more formalistic RPer.
So really, you shouldn't be surprised if PvP players and RPers don't get along. They are two different (but legitimate) perspectives on how RPG games should be designed. I am old, so I am just pointing out why this conversation won't go anywhere. You just have to respect that some people reason differently.
What you say make sense. I am not a pvp lover either though i have dabbled in it. When it is tactical and organized i have enjoyed it. The main problem that rper's have with pvper's is that they think every game should be designed to suit them. All the rper's have ever asked is for one game to be designed for rping. The majority of games are designed for pvping and satisfying them, but they are not the only ones who game. I personally have nothing against them or wish to argue with them. There is a all out pvp game coming out, Darkfall. It has been my expirience that the majority of pvper's are young kids, I could be wrong on that assumption, but i am willing to bet i am not.
Yes we are two differant breeds of gamers and though each feels they are the majority of gaming world there is no real way to tell. With almost every game out there a pvp based or related game it would appear that the pvper's are the majority. I think turbine is banking on the idea that they aren't and that there are just as many rper's out there.
No we will never agree on what makes a great game, and just because either side says that if the game isn't catered to them the game will fail does not make it true. This game will bring in people who have probably never played a online game or have tried one and quit because of pvp or lack of rping. There is no real way to tell until the game is released and the numbers of players is known.
While the OP didnt expand on his thoughts, and many called him a ganker for no reason, he is absolutely right IMO.
Its just you versus the NPCs, no other challenges, no other worries, and it doesn't really seem like they intend to change that. They had the perfect setup, and completely droped the ball far as im concerned
. How hard was it to setup some evil char. that people could play. The lore/story all there for them. The creative artwork was also mostly already depicted..Baffle
. I really just cant believe they went the direction they did with this game. Poor...its just a p*** poor interpretation for MMO viability.
/slumbersOffinDisapointment
They thought long and hard about there decision to exclude pvp and playable evil races. According to the lore of the books the evil races all answered to sauron and had no free will, they gave that up when they choose to follow him. Orcs being a mockery of elfs are creatures who by nature are cowardly and fear sunlight. If you were to play one you would be subjected to only playing at night. Trolls would be the same way. There is not enough info in the books lore wise to base a caracter of evil men off of. You wonder why they just don't do whatever they want and make up whatever they want is easy to answer. There is a thing called a license which was granted to them by Tolkien Enterprise and in securing this license they had to agree to certain stipulations and they are answerable to TE for these stipulations. If they were to do anything that were to go against the license that they were awarded TE could pull the license thus ending the game. I understand that you are disappointed and it justifiable. You have certain expectations for the games that you play and when a game doesn't meet them it is disappointing. I am sure that you see no reason why they can't do anything they want. But you are not a business trying to make money on a title that has stipulations to a license that can be yanked if you break it. Turbine did not drop the ball, they are sticking to the lore of the books and the story. Show me anywere in the LoTR were you have elfs killing hobbits or dwarves killing men. I am sure you do not see things the way i or many others do. If you have never read the books i would like to recommend that you do. Then maybe you will be able to understand were the rest of us are coming from. There is so much more to the lore and the story than pvp, which isn't even part of the story.
Explain to me how they had the perfect setup to support pvp. When the only real playable races that the story or the lore support is the free races of middle earth. When that is what the books are about, the struggle of the free races to overcome temptation. There is not enough about the evil races in the lore or the story to support them being playable. And it was never in tolkiens lore for the free races to fight and kill each other.
Well since many already moaned about the non-existent pvp - and get called 'gankers, griefers' from the other front, I'd like to add my 2 cents too
I am an adult person, almost 30 years old. I played quite a few MMORPG's now, and I never had that intend to 'gank' just anyone for no reason at all.
So its a game with only good sided chars available - well to speak out of my experience - what is the essence of a game to have only NPC opponents?
Alone that is a pretty linear gameplay and won't have the features (good vs evol) that many games alrdy have since years.
Well the worst is indeed the lack in pvp.
You can call me now a ganker, for just missing pvp in a game, what is
1: shortminded and ignorance
and
2: stoopid, since you dont know me at all
There is no need to make PVP in all areas possible, but to dont bring it in any kind into the game would be a big loss...
I only say 1 thing...
AI CAN NEVER NEVER NEVER EVER MATCH HUMAN TACTICS / INTELLIGENCE
So only pvp brings you unexpected challenge, specially at max lvl where the most endgame concepts relays on pvp.
I had max chars in DAOC, i have several 220ish in Anarchy Online and so on - what would be the essence of lvling those toons to max if i cant get a 'real' challenge against human intelligence?
Maybe you understand now why pvp in a MMORPG should be and that it is NOT because of gankers, griefers and w/e.
Well u can flame me now too with useless arguments and insulting me, i only offered MY opinion, make your own, but think about what i said before you start to flame me
cheers
I do not believe that all pvper's are gankers or griefers, Just like i do not believe all games are ment for pvp. I do not purposely flame anyone on these threads. Everyone has there opinion on what makes a good game and how the lack of such things will be bad for the game. Most people here who support no pvp are true tolkien fans who want to see a true interpitation of middle earth. Lot of people do not see how playing a game that is PVE only can be fun. It too me depends on the game content. I am perfectly happy doing the quests and exploring that which i have always dreamed of exploring.
I understand that you play games for the challenge and you see no reason on lvling your caracter if you can't have the ultimate challenge that you seek. I as many others are content with the other side of the game play. I have dabbled in pvp and though i found it a rush it was not the type of game play i prefer. This is a subject that neither side will come to a middle ground on.
I am not flaming anyone or lableing them or putting them down for there believes. All i ask in return is that they don't do the same to me. I accept and understand why they believe the way that they do. At this time in the recent chooses of games that we have AI does not compare to a human abilities. But I would say that with the advancements that we make in technology that one day it will. I know this is probably considered as a non popular idea. I have no idea when such a thing will occur if it ever does. Cause i could be wrong and just very hopeful.
Some players like the OP feel that a game without PvP is not worth playing. Fine, that's their choice and nobody should deride them them making it, but it doesn't mean that a game that leaves out their #1 feature is automatically going to be rubbish or unpopular. The MMO genre is big enough to hold a wide range of full, partial and zero PvP games. It may be a shame if a favourite IP of yours gets developed in a way you don't like, but that problem crops up no matter what world type you prefer. For instance I'll always miss the Warhammer Online that might have been, before Mythic turned it into a RvR PvP game.
At the moment Turbine have said that players will not inflict harm on other players, which implies that even duelling is out of the picture, but they say they have some innovative ways of injecting competitive play into the game. We will just have to see what they announce in the coming months. I expect they'll want to make a big splash at E3 unless they've given up any plans to release the game before next summer.
Human tactics/intelligence in pvp is just spamming your current best attacks until either you win, die, or run away... whats so difficult/mysterious about that? you think a developer couldnt code an npc to spam his best attack?
nothing is unexpected to anyone that has pvped atleast twice against every class in a game, because everyone uses the same "best tactic" every time. after a while it's just like fighting buffed up npc's.
Human tactics/intelligence in pvp is just spamming your current best attacks until either you win, die, or run away... whats so difficult/mysterious about that? you think a developer couldnt code an npc to spam his best attack?
nothing is unexpected to anyone that has pvped atleast twice against every class in a game, because everyone uses the same "best tactic" every time. after a while it's just like fighting buffed up npc's.
I agree with you here. What i think he is refering too is that a npc will not turn tuck his tail between his leg and runn like a coward when getting beat, but instead will stand there and take a beating. I have pvp'd in games and this is a tactic that alot of them use. When faced with loosing they will run making you chase them until they can heal themselves or wear you down from distance attacks. Which i don't think would be too hard to program a AI to do.
Human tactics/intelligence in pvp is just spamming your current best attacks until either you win, die, or run away... whats so difficult/mysterious about that? you think a developer couldnt code an npc to spam his best attack?
nothing is unexpected to anyone that has pvped atleast twice against every class in a game, because everyone uses the same "best tactic" every time. after a while it's just like fighting buffed up npc's.
I agree with you here. What i think he is refering too is that a npc will not turn tuck his tail between his leg and runn like a coward when getting beat, but instead will stand there and take a beating. I have pvp'd in games and this is a tactic that alot of them use. When faced with loosing they will run making you chase them until they can heal themselves or wear you down from distance attacks. Which i don't think would be too hard to program a AI to do.
world of warcraft uses the same system for most of it's "intelligent" humanoid mobs. what i'm saying is tho to the "pvp must be the main focus of every MMO released" crowd.. is that pvp at the very begining is a challenge yes.. but after the first few fights it's the same ole same ole. and thats the problem with turn based MMO's that are centered around PVP as the main challenge. everything else in the game is a joke then.. a game without pvp can focus more on creating more challenges in the PVE realm.. challenges that rank right up there with the first few times you pvp in other games.
point is.. the devs have decided pvp is not for this game. that should be the end of it. making long winded posts on why you like pvp in games is not going to change that. i personally am glad the devs are sticking to the Tolkien lore than breaking and giving in to the minority of players like *cough* SWG and Jedi *cough*.
I am not pleased with Turbine for changing Middle Earth Online to Lord of thing Rings Online. What could have been a massive world full of potential has turned into every geeks fantasy of living out the books. This is rediculous. If you think the only evil in the world is Sauron then you're seriously living in a fairytale. I can understand not allowing us to play as certain races but to say that to be a human or an elf or a dwarf is to be innately good is a laughable proposition. Want to know the real reason there is no pvp? Turbine is trying to create a game that appeals to a wide audience and they are succeeding at that, but in the process destroying what I consider to be the most important characteristic of any good MMORPG - The ability to choose.
It is ironic, instead of progressing they are regressing in this area. Ever since MMORPGs hit the mainstream, games seems to add more and more restrictions as to what a player can and can't do.
I am not big on pvp. I just think a player should have the choice to decide what type of character he or she will play. Though I'm not afraid to admit with the sheer lack of conscious that comes with being on the internet this is an unrealistic vision.
Oh well...
...
None of us are saying that to be human, elf or dwarve is to be inately good. What we are saying and what turbine is saying is that the story is about the FREE PEOPLE VS SAURON AND HIS FOLLOWERS. Of course there are evil men, I am not sure about elves or dwarves though since i can't recall any real solid examples of were they are. So you know why turbine has made there decision for no pvp. Do you personally have a in that no other does. Do you constantly talk with the devs and know them personally? No one can say for postive why they made the decision other than the devs.
You're funny... you're well thought out post died when you tried to get me with your "do you know the devs?" arguement.
Maybe you didn't know but the original project was meant to be about life in middle earth not the war against Sauron. It was changed after Turbine bought the project, much to the dismay of many of the original fans. They changed everything right down to the name, to boost the hype and pick up new customers, without a care for the old fans who had been around since the beginning. They are trying to appeal to the masses, and it is widely believed the average gamers dislike a pvp-oriented game. I am not saying this is a bad thing, to each his own. That is all besides the point anyway.
The arguement that there won't pvp because it's suppose to be about the war against Sauron is weak because if that was the case Hobbits wouldn't be a playable race at all. How many hobbits do you think took part in the war?
I have been around since back when this game was MEO and i was upset that they changed the name. I know about all the changes. I know what this game originally was suppose to be like And the devs have explained in the official forums the reasoning for them making the changes. To the extent that they feel i would guess is needed. You may be right for there reasoning. But unless you can prove what you say it is just your opinion. You may see the devs say so as being weak but hey they are the ones making the game, they have the final say so. Now their exact reasons our known only by them and the company they work for. My point in my thread is unless you know the reasons and heard it from a dev or the company your opinion is hear say. You are assuming that this is why they did what they did and to state it as fact on these forums is missleading.
The reason they gave for no pvp is that it doesn't fit in the lore of the books to have the free people of middle earth killing each other. One thing is a fact not everyone will agree upon the reasons for or against pvp in this game.
Novels? You do know what a novel is right? A Short story.
I CREATED MYSELF!
"<Claus|Dev> i r pk"
SW:TOR|War40K:DMO|GW2
turbine has made there decision for no pvp.
Because they are too incompetent and to lazy to incorporate it into the game. Same as with DDO.