Zenimax is a bunch of cash-hungry wallet warriors. No surprise there. I think the more depressing thing, which I didn't realize until now is that Facecrook, the God-King of money grubbing, terrible corporations, is buying Oculus Rift, so we can expect zero progress, a $2,500.00 price tag, and the system to deliver all of your personal information, including brainwave activity directly to Mark Suckerberg.
Just a terrible story all around. I would have thought John Carmack would have had more balls than to sell out like that. Seriously, if I could wave a magic wand and delete one thing from existence, it would be Facebook.
psiic it is not the VR they want its the headset. They not interested in contesting the VR they are claiming the design of the headset was aided by Carmack .They are interested in the future production of the headset not the VR associated. They will not fight the patent so even if Carmack developed the VR tech and used code he developed while at Zen which he denies BTW it is the headset physical design that Zen wants a part of.
Mind you Zenimax was offered an equity in Occulus which they turned down. "Three months after Luckey signed the NDA, and a month before the Kickstarter launch, Oculus even offered ZeniMax equity, but those negotiations fell through."
They want in on the physical design of the headset .
Originally posted by kitarad psiic it is not the VR they want its the headset. They not interested in contesting the VR they are claiming the design of the headset was aided by Carmack .They are interested in the future production of the headset not the VR associated. They will not fight the patent so even if Carmack developed the VR tech and used code he developed while at Zen which he denies BTW it is the headset physical design that Zen wants a part of.
Some of that I'm sure is it's usually easier to prove/disprove Hware migration than software. EDIT If your correct about the 50% offer that would also explain limiting the suit to the headset as well. If true that was basically an offer of 1st refusal to Zen witch just makes this whole thing even murkier /EDIT
Seriously duct taped ski goggles? That was the stolen tech .Computer components duct taped to ski goggles.
ZeniMax is claiming that the prototype -- a pair of ski goggles affixed to computer components with duct tape -- served as the basis for the Rift.
Sorry it was equity not sure of percentage. I made a mistake on saying it was 50%
OmaliMMO Business CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,177
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
You're pitting logic against the cesspool of hate that is this forum, and you're going to lose.
Zenimax did not try to settle that is not correct it was Occulus who offered them equity which Zen turned down. Yes you can report that as trying to settle but that would not be accurate.
Three months after Luckey signed the NDA, and a month before the Kickstarter launch, Oculus even offered ZeniMax equity, but those negotiations fell through.
So...A person works for a company and reinvents the mouse trap in his spare time at his/her own expense. That person sells the product for a crap ton of money. At the same time said person works for a corporation so he/she can pay they're own light bill. Said person also signed an agreement saying they are not allowed to do that even if it's not a related product (in short, and happens all the time, I have signed several myself). Thats because said person may have used company time to develop that product, think about that product while on the clock or used company resources to make that product.
The point is:
Corporations do that kind of **** everyday ( just incase by the off chance they do hire a genius). For example, A factory worker making lug nuts all day re-invents a mouse trap, sells idea for a bunch of money or quits to starts his own business. However he signed an "agreement" saying that any of his idea's are lug nut factory company property.....sorry dude, you are now SOL.
The corporation sues the **** outa the person, steals his/her mouse trap and money and makes a crap ton more money than they already make buy acquiring a great new product.
Contracts like that should be unlawful plain and simple. But they arn't. And can you prove that you didn't use company time or resources to come up with the idea, even to day dream about it for a second or two while you were on or off the clock?
Now, in this case....it's gonna be a tough one. Same product just a different version or name even. It would be interesting to see the actual court case instead of a media artical...which is a whole different story I'm sure.
Originally posted by Pogoant So...A person works for a company and reinvents the mouse trap in his spare time at his/her own expense. That person sells the product for a crap ton of money. At the same time said person works for a corporation so he/she can pay they're own light bill. Said person also signed an agreement saying they are not allowed to do that even if it's not a related product (in short, and happens all the time, I have signed several myself). Thats because said person may have used company time to develop that product, think about that product while on the clock or used company resources to make that product. The point is:Corporations do that kind of **** everyday ( just incase by the off chance they do hire a genius). For example, A factory worker making lug nuts all day re-invents a mouse trap, sells idea for a bunch of money or quits to starts his own business. However he signed an "agreement" saying that any of his idea's are lug nut factory company property.....sorry dude, you are now SOL.The corporation sues the **** outa the person, steals his/her mouse trap and money and makes a crap ton more money than they already make buy acquiring a great new product.Contracts like that should be unlawful plain and simple. But they arn't. And can you prove that you didn't use company time or resources to come up with the idea, even to day dream about it for a second or two while you were on or off the clock?Now, in this case....it's gonna be a tough one. Same product just a different version or name even. It would be interesting to see the actual court case instead of a media artical...which is a whole different story I'm sure.
the whole point is it remains staggeringly unclear that he did indeed "build this mousetrap" entirely on his own dime and completely in his spare time.. Also consider his contract with ZEN when he worked for them was for exactly this area of tech. It raises doubt that Zen owned resources weren't at some point contributive to the current OR tech. to one degree or other. How much or how little I couldn't even speculate.
So...A person works for a company and reinvents the mouse trap in his spare time at his/her own expense. That person sells the product for a crap ton of money. At the same time said person works for a corporation so he/she can pay they're own light bill. Said person also signed an agreement saying they are not allowed to do that even if it's not a related product (in short, and happens all the time, I have signed several myself). Thats because said person may have used company time to develop that product, think about that product while on the clock or used company resources to make that product.
The point is:
Corporations do that kind of **** everyday ( just incase by the off chance they do hire a genius). For example, A factory worker making lug nuts all day re-invents a mouse trap, sells idea for a bunch of money or quits to starts his own business. However he signed an "agreement" saying that any of his idea's are lug nut factory company property.....sorry dude, you are now SOL.
The corporation sues the **** outa the person, steals his/her mouse trap and money and makes a crap ton more money than they already make buy acquiring a great new product.
Contracts like that should be unlawful plain and simple. But they arn't. And can you prove that you didn't use company time or resources to come up with the idea, even to day dream about it for a second or two while you were on or off the clock?
Now, in this case....it's gonna be a tough one. Same product just a different version or name even. It would be interesting to see the actual court case instead of a media artical...which is a whole different story I'm sure.
Thing is with said contracts you can clear yourself of obligations by first allowing said company the chance to take on the product. If they refuse you can then take the item to market so long as it was not created using proprietary resources and is not an item of substantial equivalency to something produced/under research by said company. Getting a signed rejection is also a good way to go.
Example: Your lug nut working making a mouse trap.
Now in a case where someone was to say work for Bic in R&D-Pen Division and in his off time created a pen using methods/procedures from current research he was working on at Bic, quit his job and then sell the new pen to Papermate, then yes, there is grounds for legal action.He was employed/contracted by Bic to research/design a pen, left his job and sold a 'pen' to a rival company, never giving Bic the chance to accept or decline a product that could have been developed using even the smallest part of their proprietary research. And being a pen, it is a substantial equivalent of their current product. It all boils down to what sort of agreement was signed.
There are 3 types of people in the world. 1.) Those who make things happen 2.) Those who watch things happen 3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
After digging around it looks like this is clearly in favor of Zenimax.
"Up until November 2013 Carmack was still employed by ZeniMax as a programmer, despite having taken the position of Oculus CTO in August 2013."
"Carmack wasn't always so optimistic. After connecting with Oculus Rift creator Palmer Luckey on a 3D messaging forum, Luckey sent Carmack a prototype.
"Carmack hot-glued a tracking sensor and duct-taped a ski goggle strap onto the prototype and tweaked a version of Doom 3 so that it played on the headset. Since demonstrating that in private sessions at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo in L.A, Carmack has improved the image quality and head tracking."
While he was working at Zenimax he was working on the prototype for Oculus among other things. He worked on software for Oculus as well, while still employeed by Zenimax he took a position at Oculus. It's pretty cut and dry, he developed software and technology while working for Zenimax that he used to further the Rift Oculus. Zenimax clearly has a case and it is a pretty cut and dry one at that.
"John's early experiments with the Rift put Oculus on the map and helped create an amazing amount of momentum around virtual reality," Luckey, 21, said when Carmack joined the company.
The yellow is referring to work he did while employeed by Zenimax...
Sorry guys and gals, it is what it is. Follow the time lines, look at the information available and it's pretty easy to see.
As far as money grabs go... I think a company like facebook that had no hand in the creation or helped with even the idea phase of things trying to cash in is a money grab. A company attempting to get compensated for work one of it's employees did while on their payroll is a far cry from what I would consider a money grab.
Well, there goes Zenimax's credibility, it would be a good time for Bethesda to distance themselves from Zenimax as much as possible now, maybe even disenfranchise them perhaps? as they really don't want to be tarred with the same brush thats going to be hitting Zenimax. Player dislike of companies that pull those kinds of shenanigans is usually substantial, and given how badly ESO launched, its probably the dumbest thing they could do, its PR suicide, EA etc must be laughing their socks off, as their probably telling themselves that 'hey at least we're not going to be the most hated company in America this year!'
If this is the kind of behaviour that we can expect from Zenimax, then i hope their not too surprised at all the hate that is going to be heading their way, because the 'dislike' they generated over their launching ESO too early and with too many bugs, is going to be nothing compared to the hate generated by the company itself over this, what are they going to do next, go round drowning puppies and kicking peoples grannies? are they insane
That's why this kind of stuff is rotten. Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company. The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift. If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus? I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.
This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is. Period.
That's why this kind of stuff is rotten. Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company. The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift. If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus? I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.
This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is. Period.
He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system.
Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax.
That's why this kind of stuff is rotten. Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company. The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift. If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus? I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.
This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is. Period.
He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system.
Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax.
Sorry Grayghost, but i totally disagree, what he does while he is at work 8 - 5 or whatever hours he worked for them, is one thing, whatever he does in his spare time is his own, nothing to do with Zenimax. But Zenimax are only digging themselves a deeper hole now, and if their finances are in such a mess they have to resort to tactics like this, then personally i'll be happy to see the company fold, we don't need those types of games companies.
Time for the guys at Zenimax to start polishing their CV's if you ask me
I believe John when he says Oculus doesn't use a single line of code he produced while working at Zenimax. But no one here can know the truth other than the parts involved, so we'll just have to wait and see what the courts decide.
Originally posted by Thornrage Since Zenimax tried to settle before the Facebook buyout, would think they might have more of leg to stand on here than you are accepting.
Chances of this going in Zenimax favor - zero.
All this will do is get them negative publicity of a greedy company, again something that gamers despise.
Zenimax needs to decide if they want to be a media company or a patent troll company.
Sadly with this lawsuit, its clear where their priorities are,
yeah but they dont care about the gamers Kano........why? yeah your are right, us gamers despise those greedy companies....true....very true....BUT.....gamers also stil throw their money at them without thinking so why should they care what the gamers think.......i would not care if stupid people bought me my bentley.....they never have to face us anyways.
Gamers should talk with their money.....but "WE" don't.
ps: stopped buyin from EA after they charged me extra for cars in a freaking RACEGAME.....(dirt 3 anyone?)......that's like buying a keyboard but you need to pay extra for your spacebar......just wrong.
I was watching an episode of "Mad about You" a 90's TV show. In the episode, Paul invests money into a VR headset without his wife's knowledge and comedy ensues.
The Idea of VR headsets have been around for a long time. Zenimax doesn't own that idea. However they would own any lines of code that were created while John was working for them.
That's why this kind of stuff is rotten. Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company. The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift. If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus? I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.
This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is. Period.
He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system.
Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax.
Sorry Grayghost, but i totally disagree, what he does while he is at work 8 - 5 or whatever hours he worked for them, is one thing, whatever he does in his spare time is his own, nothing to do with Zenimax. But Zenimax are only digging themselves a deeper hole now, and if their finances are in such a mess they have to resort to tactics like this, then personally i'll be happy to see the company fold, we don't need those types of games companies.
Time for the guys at Zenimax to start polishing their CV's if you ask me
You agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. No one is forced to sign anything. When you choose to sign something, you have to deal with the consequences. I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with anything considering this has been an ongoing thing for a few years now.
Secondly... does everyone here realize that Zenimax Media is the one doing this and not Zenimax Online Studios (Developers of TESO). Zenimax Online Studios is just a subsidy just like Bethesda is. When you say we don't need game companies like Bethesda, id software, and etc. because the parent company is upholding signed agreements I really get confused.
He had a choice to retain all rights to everything he did by simply turning down the job and refusing to sign anything. Though, that may have reduced his ability to make the contributions to the Rift Oculus that he has.
Though I think your post is derived more from your distaste with ESO than anything. For the record I too dislike ESO and saw it's short comings back in the conceptual stages and was further convinced of it's short comings during the alpha and decided to pass on the game entirely. That however has not clouded my judgement.
You agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. No one is forced to sign anything...
What you think is also irrelevant including any rant about signing. It is for the courts to decide who signed what and how that applies to what. I have written programs while under contract and done work as a subcontractor with software belonging to my employer, the client, and myself at various times. The agreements made for ownership are negotiated and not just under some blanket well the guy used to work for us law.
So screw Zenimax becuase the guy broke an agreement which he signed himself which gives Zenimax the rights to anything he worked on while an employee of Zenimax? You know this is pretty standard practice for any company. Dont know why you kids try to act like suddenly this one company is greedy and evil for doing it when every company in the world uses the same types of agreements to ensure this type of stuff doesnt happen and that they have a claim to anything created by their employees using their resources.
So screw Zenimax becuase the guy broke an agreement which he signed himself which gives Zenimax the rights to anything he worked on while an employee of Zenimax? You know this is pretty standard practice for any company. Dont know why you kids try to act like suddenly this one company is greedy and evil for doing it when every company in the world uses the same types of agreements to ensure this type of stuff doesnt happen and that they have a claim to anything created by their employees using their resources.
I believe it's because they are trying to claim things he was working after he worked for Zenimax. They have a right to anything he worked on while with the company, just not work he did after.
All code he worked on while he was with the company is theirs. But not code he worked on after.
I think it really depends on their contracts since a lot of things here wont work like it does with other companies because the entities are Zenimax and Carmack.
Zenimax usually does not pursue litigation unless its in the right to do say as it has done with Fallout Online. Chances are they are doing this knowing full well they can win. They are also doing this because they bought Id to get Carmack's expertise.
Carmack is such a high value talent that he probably was able to get a special contract. Usually most companies have you sign an NDA, Non-Compete Agreement, and IP ownership papers. However, because of Carmack's position and Zenimax's relative laxness in these areas; he may have been able to broker leeway in these areas. So it really depends on the individual contracts. Another thing to note, a company that makes you sign a non-compete agreement usually also has to pay you during the non-compete time period. So there is a good chance non-compete does not apply.
That's why this kind of stuff is rotten. Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company. The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift. If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus? I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.
This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is. Period.
He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system.
Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax.
Sorry Grayghost, but i totally disagree, what he does while he is at work 8 - 5 or whatever hours he worked for them, is one thing, whatever he does in his spare time is his own, nothing to do with Zenimax. But Zenimax are only digging themselves a deeper hole now, and if their finances are in such a mess they have to resort to tactics like this, then personally i'll be happy to see the company fold, we don't need those types of games companies.
Time for the guys at Zenimax to start polishing their CV's if you ask me
ENNN wrong. He signed an intellectual rights contract with Zenimax. The contract is enforceable period.
There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.
The simple fact is that Zenimax did pay Carmack to research VR tech while he was under contract with their company. Now he is working for another company developing that same technology. Anything he discovered or developed while working for Zenimax belongs to Zenimax. Like it or not that is the law. Anything he developed while under contract by Zenimax that made it's way over to Occulus is a breach of contract and constitutes a theft of technology.
Comments
Zenimax is a bunch of cash-hungry wallet warriors. No surprise there. I think the more depressing thing, which I didn't realize until now is that Facecrook, the God-King of money grubbing, terrible corporations, is buying Oculus Rift, so we can expect zero progress, a $2,500.00 price tag, and the system to deliver all of your personal information, including brainwave activity directly to Mark Suckerberg.
Just a terrible story all around. I would have thought John Carmack would have had more balls than to sell out like that. Seriously, if I could wave a magic wand and delete one thing from existence, it would be Facebook.
My blog:
http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/Strayfe/
psiic it is not the VR they want its the headset. They not interested in contesting the VR they are claiming the design of the headset was aided by Carmack .They are interested in the future production of the headset not the VR associated. They will not fight the patent so even if Carmack developed the VR tech and used code he developed while at Zen which he denies BTW it is the headset physical design that Zen wants a part of.
Mind you Zenimax was offered an equity in Occulus which they turned down. "Three months after Luckey signed the NDA, and a month before the Kickstarter launch, Oculus even offered ZeniMax equity, but those negotiations fell through."
They want in on the physical design of the headset .
EDIT
If your correct about the 50% offer that would also explain limiting the suit to the headset as well. If true that was basically an offer of 1st refusal to Zen witch just makes this whole thing even murkier
/EDIT
Seriously duct taped ski goggles? That was the stolen tech .Computer components duct taped to ski goggles.
ZeniMax is claiming that the prototype -- a pair of ski goggles affixed to computer components with duct tape -- served as the basis for the Rift.
Sorry it was equity not sure of percentage. I made a mistake on saying it was 50%
You're pitting logic against the cesspool of hate that is this forum, and you're going to lose.
http://wyrdblogging.blogspot.com/
Zenimax did not try to settle that is not correct it was Occulus who offered them equity which Zen turned down. Yes you can report that as trying to settle but that would not be accurate.
Three months after Luckey signed the NDA, and a month before the Kickstarter launch, Oculus even offered ZeniMax equity, but those negotiations fell through.
So...A person works for a company and reinvents the mouse trap in his spare time at his/her own expense. That person sells the product for a crap ton of money. At the same time said person works for a corporation so he/she can pay they're own light bill. Said person also signed an agreement saying they are not allowed to do that even if it's not a related product (in short, and happens all the time, I have signed several myself). Thats because said person may have used company time to develop that product, think about that product while on the clock or used company resources to make that product.
The point is:
Corporations do that kind of **** everyday ( just incase by the off chance they do hire a genius). For example, A factory worker making lug nuts all day re-invents a mouse trap, sells idea for a bunch of money or quits to starts his own business. However he signed an "agreement" saying that any of his idea's are lug nut factory company property.....sorry dude, you are now SOL.
The corporation sues the **** outa the person, steals his/her mouse trap and money and makes a crap ton more money than they already make buy acquiring a great new product.
Contracts like that should be unlawful plain and simple. But they arn't. And can you prove that you didn't use company time or resources to come up with the idea, even to day dream about it for a second or two while you were on or off the clock?
Now, in this case....it's gonna be a tough one. Same product just a different version or name even. It would be interesting to see the actual court case instead of a media artical...which is a whole different story I'm sure.
Thing is with said contracts you can clear yourself of obligations by first allowing said company the chance to take on the product. If they refuse you can then take the item to market so long as it was not created using proprietary resources and is not an item of substantial equivalency to something produced/under research by said company. Getting a signed rejection is also a good way to go.
Example: Your lug nut working making a mouse trap.
Now in a case where someone was to say work for Bic in R&D-Pen Division and in his off time created a pen using methods/procedures from current research he was working on at Bic, quit his job and then sell the new pen to Papermate, then yes, there is grounds for legal action.He was employed/contracted by Bic to research/design a pen, left his job and sold a 'pen' to a rival company, never giving Bic the chance to accept or decline a product that could have been developed using even the smallest part of their proprietary research. And being a pen, it is a substantial equivalent of their current product. It all boils down to what sort of agreement was signed.
There are 3 types of people in the world.
1.) Those who make things happen
2.) Those who watch things happen
3.) And those who wonder "What the %#*& just happened?!"
After digging around it looks like this is clearly in favor of Zenimax.
"Up until November 2013 Carmack was still employed by ZeniMax as a programmer, despite having taken the position of Oculus CTO in August 2013."
"Carmack wasn't always so optimistic. After connecting with Oculus Rift creator Palmer Luckey on a 3D messaging forum, Luckey sent Carmack a prototype.
"Carmack hot-glued a tracking sensor and duct-taped a ski goggle strap onto the prototype and tweaked a version of Doom 3 so that it played on the headset. Since demonstrating that in private sessions at the 2012 Electronic Entertainment Expo in L.A, Carmack has improved the image quality and head tracking."
While he was working at Zenimax he was working on the prototype for Oculus among other things. He worked on software for Oculus as well, while still employeed by Zenimax he took a position at Oculus. It's pretty cut and dry, he developed software and technology while working for Zenimax that he used to further the Rift Oculus. Zenimax clearly has a case and it is a pretty cut and dry one at that.
"John's early experiments with the Rift put Oculus on the map and helped create an amazing amount of momentum around virtual reality," Luckey, 21, said when Carmack joined the company.
The yellow is referring to work he did while employeed by Zenimax...
Sorry guys and gals, it is what it is. Follow the time lines, look at the information available and it's pretty easy to see.
As far as money grabs go... I think a company like facebook that had no hand in the creation or helped with even the idea phase of things trying to cash in is a money grab. A company attempting to get compensated for work one of it's employees did while on their payroll is a far cry from what I would consider a money grab.
Well, there goes Zenimax's credibility, it would be a good time for Bethesda to distance themselves from Zenimax as much as possible now, maybe even disenfranchise them perhaps? as they really don't want to be tarred with the same brush thats going to be hitting Zenimax. Player dislike of companies that pull those kinds of shenanigans is usually substantial, and given how badly ESO launched, its probably the dumbest thing they could do, its PR suicide, EA etc must be laughing their socks off, as their probably telling themselves that 'hey at least we're not going to be the most hated company in America this year!'
If this is the kind of behaviour that we can expect from Zenimax, then i hope their not too surprised at all the hate that is going to be heading their way, because the 'dislike' they generated over their launching ESO too early and with too many bugs, is going to be nothing compared to the hate generated by the company itself over this, what are they going to do next, go round drowning puppies and kicking peoples grannies? are they insane
That's why this kind of stuff is rotten. Because that means that a company like Zenimax can hold a person as their little puppet until hell freezes over and claim that whatever a person did outside the company(even after they have left a company) can still be claimed as something a person did while at the company. The guy said plainly that he didn't use any code he wrote for Zenimax on the Oculus Rift. If it is about the design...did Zenimax have a patent on it all ready - one that is like the Oculus? I don't think so...so they have squat to stand on.
This is just showing how much of a money grubbing company Zenimax is. Period.
He made the prototype while working at Zenimax as well as wrote some of the code again working at Zenimax. He later joined Oculus. Keep in mind he started working on VR gear back in 2011 again, while working at Zenimax. With most companies, especially hardware and software companies there is a standard agreement if nothing else that states what you create while at said company even off the clock is property of said company. You know ahead of time, if you don't agree with that then don't sign anything. You can't back out later or try and cheat the system.
Carmack knows he messed up, which is why he was attempting to offer equity to Zenimax.
Sorry Grayghost, but i totally disagree, what he does while he is at work 8 - 5 or whatever hours he worked for them, is one thing, whatever he does in his spare time is his own, nothing to do with Zenimax. But Zenimax are only digging themselves a deeper hole now, and if their finances are in such a mess they have to resort to tactics like this, then personally i'll be happy to see the company fold, we don't need those types of games companies.
Time for the guys at Zenimax to start polishing their CV's if you ask me
I believe John when he says Oculus doesn't use a single line of code he produced while working at Zenimax. But no one here can know the truth other than the parts involved, so we'll just have to wait and see what the courts decide.
yeah but they dont care about the gamers Kano........why? yeah your are right, us gamers despise those greedy companies....true....very true....BUT.....gamers also stil throw their money at them without thinking so why should they care what the gamers think.......i would not care if stupid people bought me my bentley.....they never have to face us anyways.
Gamers should talk with their money.....but "WE" don't.
ps: stopped buyin from EA after they charged me extra for cars in a freaking RACEGAME.....(dirt 3 anyone?)......that's like buying a keyboard but you need to pay extra for your spacebar......just wrong.
I was watching an episode of "Mad about You" a 90's TV show. In the episode, Paul invests money into a VR headset without his wife's knowledge and comedy ensues.
The Idea of VR headsets have been around for a long time. Zenimax doesn't own that idea. However they would own any lines of code that were created while John was working for them.
You agreeing or disagreeing is irrelevant. No one is forced to sign anything. When you choose to sign something, you have to deal with the consequences. I have no idea what the rest of your post has to do with anything considering this has been an ongoing thing for a few years now.
Secondly... does everyone here realize that Zenimax Media is the one doing this and not Zenimax Online Studios (Developers of TESO). Zenimax Online Studios is just a subsidy just like Bethesda is. When you say we don't need game companies like Bethesda, id software, and etc. because the parent company is upholding signed agreements I really get confused.
He had a choice to retain all rights to everything he did by simply turning down the job and refusing to sign anything. Though, that may have reduced his ability to make the contributions to the Rift Oculus that he has.
Though I think your post is derived more from your distaste with ESO than anything. For the record I too dislike ESO and saw it's short comings back in the conceptual stages and was further convinced of it's short comings during the alpha and decided to pass on the game entirely. That however has not clouded my judgement.
What you think is also irrelevant including any rant about signing. It is for the courts to decide who signed what and how that applies to what. I have written programs while under contract and done work as a subcontractor with software belonging to my employer, the client, and myself at various times. The agreements made for ownership are negotiated and not just under some blanket well the guy used to work for us law.
So screw Zenimax becuase the guy broke an agreement which he signed himself which gives Zenimax the rights to anything he worked on while an employee of Zenimax? You know this is pretty standard practice for any company. Dont know why you kids try to act like suddenly this one company is greedy and evil for doing it when every company in the world uses the same types of agreements to ensure this type of stuff doesnt happen and that they have a claim to anything created by their employees using their resources.
I believe it's because they are trying to claim things he was working after he worked for Zenimax. They have a right to anything he worked on while with the company, just not work he did after.
All code he worked on while he was with the company is theirs. But not code he worked on after.
I think it really depends on their contracts since a lot of things here wont work like it does with other companies because the entities are Zenimax and Carmack.
Zenimax usually does not pursue litigation unless its in the right to do say as it has done with Fallout Online. Chances are they are doing this knowing full well they can win. They are also doing this because they bought Id to get Carmack's expertise.
Carmack is such a high value talent that he probably was able to get a special contract. Usually most companies have you sign an NDA, Non-Compete Agreement, and IP ownership papers. However, because of Carmack's position and Zenimax's relative laxness in these areas; he may have been able to broker leeway in these areas. So it really depends on the individual contracts. Another thing to note, a company that makes you sign a non-compete agreement usually also has to pay you during the non-compete time period. So there is a good chance non-compete does not apply.
ENNN wrong. He signed an intellectual rights contract with Zenimax. The contract is enforceable period.
There is only one fact that is abundantly clear in this case... Only Zenimax and Carmack know for sure what is going on here and everyone in this thread spouting off about this are talking out of their proverbial arses. Does Zenimax have a legitimate claim to the tech behind the Rift? Only Carmack and Zenimax know that for certain. This isn't something that happened overnight. Zenimax has been trying to resolve this out of court with Carmack since 2012.
The simple fact is that Zenimax did pay Carmack to research VR tech while he was under contract with their company. Now he is working for another company developing that same technology. Anything he discovered or developed while working for Zenimax belongs to Zenimax. Like it or not that is the law. Anything he developed while under contract by Zenimax that made it's way over to Occulus is a breach of contract and constitutes a theft of technology.
Bren
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