Originally posted by Nzscorpion80 Difference is you dont expect a bug in your food like you expect bugs in a computer game. Pretty simple.
I don't expect bugs in my computer games. Zero tolerance should be everybody's default position.
Will I tolerate a certain numbers of bugs - maybe, depends what they are, what there impact is.
I don't expect them however. And there is so much software used today that there are lots of systems and standards that can be followed.
The fact that some bugs were known about pre-launch coupled with Z being able to fix many of the bugs already simply underlines that they have relied on people saying "you expect bugs". And as I say there is a degree of tolerance but there are some bugs that have fallen outside a lot of people's comfort zone: security issues, items going missing, bank upgrade, phasing problems .....
As I said people do have a level of tolerance but there is a limit. And no bugs should be what everyone expects - we may not get zero but if zero is what we expect / aim for we will get far less than "oh we'll patch it in the months ahead".
Originally posted by Nzscorpion80 Difference is you dont expect a bug in your food like you expect bugs in a computer game. Pretty simple.
I don't expect bugs in my computer games. Zero tolerance should be everybody's default position.
Will I tolerate a certain numbers of bugs - maybe, depends what they are, what there impact is.
I don't expect them however. And there is so much software used today that there are lots of systems and standards that can be followed.
The fact that some bugs were known about pre-launch coupled with Z being able to fix many of the bugs already simply underlines that they have relied on people saying "you expect bugs". And as I say there is a degree of tolerance but there are some bugs that have fallen outside a lot of people's comfort zone: security issues, items going missing, bank upgrade, phasing problems .....
Tech always move forward so code needs to do the same. As things change new types of bugs present themselves. Also real word facts, money and dev time and deadlines dont always flow as anyone would like. There is a point where too much is too much but no matter how bad the bug you need to be forgiving when it comes to tech and code. You really never know how things will go till they are launched in the real world over a beta environment. Also here is the BIG POINT, even something as big as the duping bug, how much does that really impact a game that people play for many years? Honestly, not much. Sad to see on a player level but you need to put that into perspective.
Everyone who's dissatisfied with this game should do this IMO.
It may make future companies think twice about releasing unfinished games, if they loose enough money.
Some of my friends are trying to get refunds by calling Zenimax support directly because they didn't purchase via PayPal, I've heard that someone did get a refund this way as well but I cannot confirm that.
Thanks for the post!
We cannot confirm this to be a valid account....made today just to make up this cute little story.
Yup, also got a refund, but from the company itself.. third party.. they didnt want to give it back. I said, I will refund it with paypal and it cost you more or you refund it.
Bye bye vetran vampire dk! Maybe im gonna try it for the ps4..
I remember way back when if I wanted to play a game on the bbc I had to type the code in myself, almost never got to play a game as the amount of bloody mistakes it found in all the code drove you nuts.
Typical part of a poor american law, its meant for customer protection but gets largely abused by people that refuse to pay for most things anyway...
This law does not work in any European country except Norway, buying this game in europe explicitly said no refunds according to law X...
And since you probably got over a hundred hours in gametime... no judge would say you did not get any value from the purchase because of some stupid Bug..
I totally agree with you here and am american. Every single release you get these guys that get refunds after putting in over 100 hours and decide they hate the game and scream for a refund. I do not understand why these companies give them anything back. IMO these are bottom feeders the worst of the worst in video games nowadays. If you have technical issues in the first week or do not like the game by all means get a refund but posting this on the 24th which means the games account has probably been active since head start is pure ridiculous at best and I hope they IP ban the people doing this forever, because everyone knows six months from now when they are bored they will just rebuy it anyways.
As an American, I disagree.
First of all, you're saying he put in over 100 hours. Where does he say that? The OP I mean. I know Lord.Bachus said it, and you're quoting them... but they pulled it out of thin air as well. And it was pulled out of thin air, because the OP never mentions how long they've played until correcting Lord.Bachus in a following post. See, when you make things up to support an argument, you're being dishonest. Lord.Bachus was dishonest for throwing that number out there, and you're equally so for referencing it in support of your response.
If you have to make shit up to support your claims, your claims are BS and you should quit while you're ahead.
Now, as for your attacks on the OP, albeit by proxy of "those like them", you say that it's okay if you get a refund after the first week, but not "on the 24th". Well, you should have a talk with some of your buddies around here, because they have claimed the opposite. When someone is complaining about technical issues and bugs during the first week, they say there's no reason to complain because "the game just launched and it's expected". They say you should stick around because all those bugs will be fixed eventually. So, who should one listen to? You, or them?
When is it truly okay for someone to say "this product is not working at all the way it was marketed..." and get a refund? Of course, that's a rhetorical question. For the ESO Defense Force, it's never an okay time to do or say anything that reflects negatively on "their game". The goal-post will keep moving, and the arguments will keep changing to suit the circumstances. The only thing that will remain unchanging is their absolute defense of the game against any and all criticism or dissent, even when it's supported with actual known issues.
Another common issue I see coming up from the ESO Defense Force, and you touch on it as well, is this dishonest representation of the experience those getting a refund are having.
People have stated, quite clearly, that they have tried playing the game but have been unable to effectively, thanks to myriad issues/bugs they've encountered frequently along the way. It's quite clear their experience hasn't been an enjoyable one, and it's certainly not what they bought the game to experience. In their situations, a refund is 100% valid. I don't care what the product is - game or otherwise. If you purchase something that's advertised to perform a certain way, and then that product fails to live up to its marketing, you have a right to get a refund. Period. They are doing nothing that is not within their rights and, frankly, good on them for speaking with their wallets. It's what this genre needs more of.
Yet, the ESO Defense Force keeps twisting it around to make it sound like these people were playing and enjoying the game the entire time. They pay attention to the "played for -x- time" bit, but completely ignore the parts about all the issues and game-breaking bugs they encountered along the way. They then conclude "well they played the game for that long they don't deserve a refund". I mean how blatantly dishonest can you be?
The game has a lot of problems making it near unplayable for a number of people. That's just the reality of it.
The game is not the holy grail many of the ESO Defense Force want to pretend it is. The player feedback reflects this. The divided media reviews reflect this. ESO has not had a stable launch for many players, and it has not had a particularly strong impression on a number of people. That's just the truth of it. You don't have to like it.. but you do need to acknowledge it and stop pretending it isn't, or making excuses for it.
Are ppl still able to get refund? My friend lvl 42 isnt able to progress due to bugs and downtime, so he applied for refund, but the CS said that he had "to much time invested into the game with his level", and therefore it wasnt possible to give refund. Even though my friend isnt able to progress and is playing a beta product.
Originally posted by Nacario Are ppl still able to get refund? My friend lvl 42 isnt able to progress due to bugs and downtime, so he applied for refund, but the CS said that he had "to much time invested into the game with his level", and therefore it wasnt possible to give refund. Even though my friend isnt able to progress and is playing a beta product.
I had a refund 2 days ago, im a vampire vetran rank 1. I still can log in. Just act mad xD
What is this obsession with people's refunds? The responses are bordering on insane here? Some of you are disturbingly passionate over this, like the OP got away with committing a crime against you or a loved one. They aren't even committing a crime at all. ZM chose to give the refund. They didn't steal it. I will tell you what is illegal. Accusing someone of a crime you know they didn't commit. So some of you who are accusing the OP of breaking laws should get a bit more educated on the legal system before posting again because someday you may not be behind a wall of anonymity, you might just find yourselves in trouble.
Such passion over this. And yet no one is criticizing ZM for caving in. Did they not choose to give money back? Maybe someone at the top thought it might be a good idea. After all this was a mutual decision among 2 involved parties. If as a 3rd, uninvolved party, someone needs to feel like they should be involved, the least you can do is look at the situation and if in your estimation, you deem this transaction to be unjust, then judge both parties involved equally.
What is this obsession with people's refunds? The responses are bordering on insane here? Some of you are disturbingly passionate over this, like the OP got away with committing a crime against you or a loved one. They aren't even committing a crime at all. ZM chose to give the refund. They didn't steal it. I will tell you what is illegal. Accusing someone of a crime you know they didn't commit. So some of you who are accusing the OP of breaking laws should get a bit more educated on the legal system before posting again because someday you may not be behind a wall of anonymity, you might just find yourselves in trouble.
Such passion over this. And yet no one is criticizing ZM for caving in. Did they not choose to give money back? Maybe someone at the top thought it might be a good idea. After all this was a mutual decision among 2 involved parties. If as a 3rd, uninvolved party, someone needs to feel like they should be involved, the least you can do is look at the situation and if in your estimation, you deem this transaction to be unjust, then judge both parties involved equally.
I guess I have a problem with people using dishonest tactics to be able to play a game for free, and then coming to a forum to brag about it.
People are playing the game for over a month, long enough to get to VR levels, and then using game breaking bugs as an excuse to get their money back. My question is, where are all these supposed bugs? I am a VR player myself, have completed one campaign and am working on the second. I have completed hundreds of quests and on average about 95% of the quests in each zone I've completed, the rest being quests that I guess I simply didn't find while I was in the zone. In this time, I have found:
One bugged quest that was fixed later that week
One bugged quest that I was able to work around and complete despite the bug.
One world boss that wouldn't spawn.
One world boss that didn't give the achievement.
I'd hardly consider there bugs game breaking or out of the norm for any newly released game. So I guess all the massive amount of bugged quests are the quests I never did?
What is this obsession with people's refunds? The responses are bordering on insane here? Some of you are disturbingly passionate over this, like the OP got away with committing a crime against you or a loved one. They aren't even committing a crime at all. ZM chose to give the refund. They didn't steal it. I will tell you what is illegal. Accusing someone of a crime you know they didn't commit. So some of you who are accusing the OP of breaking laws should get a bit more educated on the legal system before posting again because someday you may not be behind a wall of anonymity, you might just find yourselves in trouble.
Such passion over this. And yet no one is criticizing ZM for caving in. Did they not choose to give money back? Maybe someone at the top thought it might be a good idea. After all this was a mutual decision among 2 involved parties. If as a 3rd, uninvolved party, someone needs to feel like they should be involved, the least you can do is look at the situation and if in your estimation, you deem this transaction to be unjust, then judge both parties involved equally.
I guess I have a problem with people using dishonest tactics to be able to play a game for free, and then coming to a forum to brag about it.
People are playing the game for over a month, long enough to get to VR levels, and then using game breaking bugs as an excuse to get their money back. My question is, where are all these supposed bugs? I am a VR player myself, have completed one campaign and am working on the second. I have completed hundreds of quests and on average about 95% of the quests in each zone I've completed, the rest being quests that I guess I simply didn't find while I was in the zone. In this time, I have found:
One bugged quest that was fixed later that week
One bugged quest that I was able to work around and complete despite the bug.
One world boss that wouldn't spawn.
One world boss that didn't give the achievement.
I'd hardly consider there bugs game breaking or out of the norm for any newly released game. So I guess all the massive amount of bugged quests are the quests I never did?
Best thing is, with a 3d party, they wont ban or delete your account xD You can still play it! Maybe sell it and make profit?
What is this obsession with people's refunds? The responses are bordering on insane here? Some of you are disturbingly passionate over this, like the OP got away with committing a crime against you or a loved one. They aren't even committing a crime at all. ZM chose to give the refund. They didn't steal it. I will tell you what is illegal. Accusing someone of a crime you know they didn't commit. So some of you who are accusing the OP of breaking laws should get a bit more educated on the legal system before posting again because someday you may not be behind a wall of anonymity, you might just find yourselves in trouble.
Such passion over this. And yet no one is criticizing ZM for caving in. Did they not choose to give money back? Maybe someone at the top thought it might be a good idea. After all this was a mutual decision among 2 involved parties. If as a 3rd, uninvolved party, someone needs to feel like they should be involved, the least you can do is look at the situation and if in your estimation, you deem this transaction to be unjust, then judge both parties involved equally.
I guess I have a problem with people using dishonest tactics to be able to play a game for free, and then coming to a forum to brag about it.
People are playing the game for over a month, long enough to get to VR levels, and then using game breaking bugs as an excuse to get their money back. My question is, where are all these supposed bugs? I am a VR player myself, have completed one campaign and am working on the second. I have completed hundreds of quests and on average about 95% of the quests in each zone I've completed, the rest being quests that I guess I simply didn't find while I was in the zone. In this time, I have found:
One bugged quest that was fixed later that week
One bugged quest that I was able to work around and complete despite the bug.
One world boss that wouldn't spawn.
One world boss that didn't give the achievement.
I'd hardly consider there bugs game breaking or out of the norm for any newly released game. So I guess all the massive amount of bugged quests are the quests I never did?
Best thing is, with a 3d party, they wont ban or delete your account xD You can still play it! Maybe sell it and make profit?
Now, for this part, if someone were to suggest that's a crime, I wouldn't argue.
As for the poster above, It's fine for you to think the OP isn't due a refund, But I am talking about the level of passion over it. As I said, it's a bit disturbing. On the other hand, you have your opinion, and there isn't anything wrong with that, but If you judged the OP for it, I'm also suggesting not to forget that ZM was a willing participant in the transaction.
I guess what I am getting at is that we are all entitled to our opinions on the matter but it's still not really anyone else's business to judge.
I don't get why people are so upset a gamecompany gives out refunds?
It's very hard for me to find fault with the fact that there is consumer protection laws in place or legal barriers to prevent unscrupulous companies from releasing faulty, dangerous, or falsely advertised goods to the general public.
You can release products for free to a testing audience even though they are not error free but you cannot charge money for a product that isn't stable and 100% error free without at the same time to be ready to offer a refund if your product is anything less than 100%.
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
I don't get why people are so upset a gamecompany gives out refunds?
It's very hard for me to find fault with the fact that there is consumer protection laws in place or legal barriers to prevent unscrupulous companies from releasing faulty, dangerous, or falsely advertised goods to the general public.
You can release products for free to a testing audience even though they are not error free but you cannot charge money for a product that isn't stable and 100% error free without at the same time to be ready to offer a refund if your product is anything less than 100%.
DING DING DING! Yay, a straight forward and to the point post explaining exactly what people are entitled to when the experience fault/broken product upon purchase. +1
Let's get this straight , I'm having a hard time getting around this ..... I eat a meal in a restaurant and I don't like it I get my money back or simply don't pay ,,,, I eat 3 meals a day for 30 days and after the 30th day I tell the manager the food sucked for 30 days give me my money back ? If this is what you think people are entitled to so be it .. to me it just looks like a scam
Its been over 30 days now, I hope people know by now if they like the game or not... some thread in a forum isn't going to break Zenimax, but if you really wanted to throw away your account on a refund after building up your character that long, by all means, go for it. Its silling to even have bought a game if you are just going to erase all your time you put into it after 30 days...
Reminds me of a person I know who used to go buy furniture and leave the tags on for months and ask for a refund on her furniture after 89 days. Shes been banned from over 10 different shopping stores for returning everything she has ever bought. This thread reminds me of her a lot.
I don't get why people are so upset a gamecompany gives out refunds?
It's very hard for me to find fault with the fact that there is consumer protection laws in place or legal barriers to prevent unscrupulous companies from releasing faulty, dangerous, or falsely advertised goods to the general public.
You can release products for free to a testing audience even though they are not error free but you cannot charge money for a product that isn't stable and 100% error free without at the same time to be ready to offer a refund if your product is anything less than 100%.
DING DING DING! Yay, a straight forward and to the point post explaining exactly what people are entitled to when the experience fault/broken product upon purchase. +1
Let's get this straight , I'm having a hard time getting around this ..... I eat a meal in a restaurant and I don't like it I get my money back or simply don't pay ,,,, I eat 3 meals a day for 30 days and after the 30th day I tell the manager the food sucked for 30 days give me my money back ? If this is what you think people are entitled to so be it .. to me it just looks like a scam
Lets get it straight:
If you actually read the topic you wouldnt be mentioning this, but i know you fanbois want to go in circles like merry go round.
Comments
I don't expect bugs in my computer games. Zero tolerance should be everybody's default position.
Will I tolerate a certain numbers of bugs - maybe, depends what they are, what there impact is.
I don't expect them however. And there is so much software used today that there are lots of systems and standards that can be followed.
The fact that some bugs were known about pre-launch coupled with Z being able to fix many of the bugs already simply underlines that they have relied on people saying "you expect bugs". And as I say there is a degree of tolerance but there are some bugs that have fallen outside a lot of people's comfort zone: security issues, items going missing, bank upgrade, phasing problems .....
As I said people do have a level of tolerance but there is a limit. And no bugs should be what everyone expects - we may not get zero but if zero is what we expect / aim for we will get far less than "oh we'll patch it in the months ahead".
Tech always move forward so code needs to do the same. As things change new types of bugs present themselves. Also real word facts, money and dev time and deadlines dont always flow as anyone would like. There is a point where too much is too much but no matter how bad the bug you need to be forgiving when it comes to tech and code. You really never know how things will go till they are launched in the real world over a beta environment. Also here is the BIG POINT, even something as big as the duping bug, how much does that really impact a game that people play for many years? Honestly, not much. Sad to see on a player level but you need to put that into perspective.
We cannot confirm this to be a valid account....made today just to make up this cute little story.
Couldn't find my old account info and mainly just wanted to thank original poster, flame on.
Bye bye vetran vampire dk! Maybe im gonna try it for the ps4..
Someone please tell me when MS release an OS with no bugs ;-)
Or when Apple releases a new iPhone or iPhone OS without bugs....
You can return your products if you find them faulty.
You can always run Linux or not use smartphone.
You can even make your own OS.
Been a few days now, since I got my money back!
Still can log on, had the same thing with gw2 2 accounts
No bugs in sw with millions lines of code?
Yeah, unrealistic expactations are just that, unrealistic. Power of ignorance.
I remember way back when if I wanted to play a game on the bbc I had to type the code in myself, almost never got to play a game as the amount of bloody mistakes it found in all the code drove you nuts.
As an American, I disagree.
First of all, you're saying he put in over 100 hours. Where does he say that? The OP I mean. I know Lord.Bachus said it, and you're quoting them... but they pulled it out of thin air as well. And it was pulled out of thin air, because the OP never mentions how long they've played until correcting Lord.Bachus in a following post. See, when you make things up to support an argument, you're being dishonest. Lord.Bachus was dishonest for throwing that number out there, and you're equally so for referencing it in support of your response.
If you have to make shit up to support your claims, your claims are BS and you should quit while you're ahead.
Now, as for your attacks on the OP, albeit by proxy of "those like them", you say that it's okay if you get a refund after the first week, but not "on the 24th". Well, you should have a talk with some of your buddies around here, because they have claimed the opposite. When someone is complaining about technical issues and bugs during the first week, they say there's no reason to complain because "the game just launched and it's expected". They say you should stick around because all those bugs will be fixed eventually. So, who should one listen to? You, or them?
When is it truly okay for someone to say "this product is not working at all the way it was marketed..." and get a refund? Of course, that's a rhetorical question. For the ESO Defense Force, it's never an okay time to do or say anything that reflects negatively on "their game". The goal-post will keep moving, and the arguments will keep changing to suit the circumstances. The only thing that will remain unchanging is their absolute defense of the game against any and all criticism or dissent, even when it's supported with actual known issues.
Another common issue I see coming up from the ESO Defense Force, and you touch on it as well, is this dishonest representation of the experience those getting a refund are having.
People have stated, quite clearly, that they have tried playing the game but have been unable to effectively, thanks to myriad issues/bugs they've encountered frequently along the way. It's quite clear their experience hasn't been an enjoyable one, and it's certainly not what they bought the game to experience. In their situations, a refund is 100% valid. I don't care what the product is - game or otherwise. If you purchase something that's advertised to perform a certain way, and then that product fails to live up to its marketing, you have a right to get a refund. Period. They are doing nothing that is not within their rights and, frankly, good on them for speaking with their wallets. It's what this genre needs more of.
Yet, the ESO Defense Force keeps twisting it around to make it sound like these people were playing and enjoying the game the entire time. They pay attention to the "played for -x- time" bit, but completely ignore the parts about all the issues and game-breaking bugs they encountered along the way. They then conclude "well they played the game for that long they don't deserve a refund". I mean how blatantly dishonest can you be?
The game has a lot of problems making it near unplayable for a number of people. That's just the reality of it.
The game is not the holy grail many of the ESO Defense Force want to pretend it is. The player feedback reflects this. The divided media reviews reflect this. ESO has not had a stable launch for many players, and it has not had a particularly strong impression on a number of people. That's just the truth of it. You don't have to like it.. but you do need to acknowledge it and stop pretending it isn't, or making excuses for it.
I had a refund 2 days ago, im a vampire vetran rank 1. I still can log in. Just act mad xD
What is this obsession with people's refunds? The responses are bordering on insane here? Some of you are disturbingly passionate over this, like the OP got away with committing a crime against you or a loved one. They aren't even committing a crime at all. ZM chose to give the refund. They didn't steal it. I will tell you what is illegal. Accusing someone of a crime you know they didn't commit. So some of you who are accusing the OP of breaking laws should get a bit more educated on the legal system before posting again because someday you may not be behind a wall of anonymity, you might just find yourselves in trouble.
Such passion over this. And yet no one is criticizing ZM for caving in. Did they not choose to give money back? Maybe someone at the top thought it might be a good idea. After all this was a mutual decision among 2 involved parties. If as a 3rd, uninvolved party, someone needs to feel like they should be involved, the least you can do is look at the situation and if in your estimation, you deem this transaction to be unjust, then judge both parties involved equally.
I guess I have a problem with people using dishonest tactics to be able to play a game for free, and then coming to a forum to brag about it.
People are playing the game for over a month, long enough to get to VR levels, and then using game breaking bugs as an excuse to get their money back. My question is, where are all these supposed bugs? I am a VR player myself, have completed one campaign and am working on the second. I have completed hundreds of quests and on average about 95% of the quests in each zone I've completed, the rest being quests that I guess I simply didn't find while I was in the zone. In this time, I have found:
One bugged quest that was fixed later that week
One bugged quest that I was able to work around and complete despite the bug.
One world boss that wouldn't spawn.
One world boss that didn't give the achievement.
I'd hardly consider there bugs game breaking or out of the norm for any newly released game. So I guess all the massive amount of bugged quests are the quests I never did?
Best thing is, with a 3d party, they wont ban or delete your account xD You can still play it! Maybe sell it and make profit?
Now, for this part, if someone were to suggest that's a crime, I wouldn't argue.
As for the poster above, It's fine for you to think the OP isn't due a refund, But I am talking about the level of passion over it. As I said, it's a bit disturbing. On the other hand, you have your opinion, and there isn't anything wrong with that, but If you judged the OP for it, I'm also suggesting not to forget that ZM was a willing participant in the transaction.
I guess what I am getting at is that we are all entitled to our opinions on the matter but it's still not really anyone else's business to judge.
I don't get why people are so upset a gamecompany gives out refunds?
It's very hard for me to find fault with the fact that there is consumer protection laws in place or legal barriers to prevent unscrupulous companies from releasing faulty, dangerous, or falsely advertised goods to the general public.
You can release products for free to a testing audience even though they are not error free but you cannot charge money for a product that isn't stable and 100% error free without at the same time to be ready to offer a refund if your product is anything less than 100%.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Let's get this straight , I'm having a hard time getting around this ..... I eat a meal in a restaurant and I don't like it I get my money back or simply don't pay ,,,, I eat 3 meals a day for 30 days and after the 30th day I tell the manager the food sucked for 30 days give me my money back ? If this is what you think people are entitled to so be it .. to me it just looks like a scam
Its been over 30 days now, I hope people know by now if they like the game or not... some thread in a forum isn't going to break Zenimax, but if you really wanted to throw away your account on a refund after building up your character that long, by all means, go for it. Its silling to even have bought a game if you are just going to erase all your time you put into it after 30 days...
Reminds me of a person I know who used to go buy furniture and leave the tags on for months and ask for a refund on her furniture after 89 days. Shes been banned from over 10 different shopping stores for returning everything she has ever bought. This thread reminds me of her a lot.
Funny thing is no one usually ever calls OP's a liar in threads like this.... well...
Guess what..prove it.....otherwise.....
Lets get it straight:
If you actually read the topic you wouldnt be mentioning this, but i know you fanbois want to go in circles like merry go round.