Some people are commenting that MMORPGs are for you to interact with other players. That's true, that's what the mulitplayer is there for. What interaction is, is actually what is debateable I feel. Everyone isn't going to see it the same way.
For some simply trading, chatting, and seeing other players running around is all the interaction they need. For others, it isn't interaction unless you are constantly grouping with someone.
Why play a mmorpg if you like instancing or not grouping. That should be easy for everyone but a lot of people want to ignore it. Look at the actual worlds of mmorpgs. Look at the depth and size of them. They are so different then single player game save a few like Morrowind or traditional rpgs like Final Fantasy for example. That right there is one of the major reasons people play mmorpgs even if they want to solo. Saying you have to group is wrong. Massively Multiplayer does not equal grouping. All it simply means is that the you are playing with and along size a large number of other people and the game is massive. That's it.
It was Everquest that went with the grouping as a way of interacting. A lot of the games that came after it just didn't bother doing anything else and that became the norm but that isn't how it originally was. Look at Merdian 59, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call 1 and several of the other online games that were out back in the day. A lot allowed players to play solo while interacting with others via chat, pvp, trade. You didn't "have" to group with anyone or even interact if you didn't want to. So please can we drop this crap about if you don't want to interact then play something else. There are other reasons why a person would play a mmorpg and not all of them has to do with grouping or pvp.
As for instancing it self I'm all for it to be honest. I'm currently playing Guild Wars after being fed up with normal mmorpgs. I've play from UO to WoW/EQ2. I even tried out a bit of Meridan 59 when it was relaunched just to see what it was like. Instancing isn't bad at all. If there is one game that came out with a great middle ground, it would have to be Anarchy Online.
AO had missions you could do solo or as a group. They were basiclly dungeon crawls. Plus large areas in the world where you could hunt solo or in a group. My fondest memories are pre-Shadowlands though since I feel that really screwed up the game. They should have gone staight to Alien Invasion after Notum Wars.
Guild Wars has to much instancing I feel but I'm dealing with it. One thing I love about instancing, that doesn't seem possible without it, is the ability to tell a story. For it to seem like you are really making a difference due to your actions. There is where Guild Wars has all other mmorpgs save Final Fantasy XI beat but it's above FFXI since FFXi story cutscenes are limited.
I agree that there is this weird trade off in terms of instancing. With instancing you get more of the RP but less of the MM at times. Gathering in cities is nice but I think there should be some areas to run around with other players that don't really take away from the storyline of the game.
Instancing does cut contact with players but a global chat systme can really fix that. It does a lot of positive though if done correctly. Allows players to enjoy the story of the game. Think of all that lore in games that goes ignored or wasted by players in mmorpgs due to blowing through content to level to get to the end game. I'm actually enjoying the adventure through missions in Guild Wars. Not to level but to fight out what happens next in the story. That's where my main focus has been. If I want to PvP, I get my PvP character (already at level 20) and go to the arenas or pvp missions (still apart of my guild). It also does away with camping, training, annoying low levels or high levels interupting your play. As a solo player you can stop where you are if you are safe and leave the computer without having to worry about something respawning since you are trying to complete the instance. If you want to group, get people together and play.
Instancing has allowed me to pay more attention to the actual world I"m playing in since I'm not under the pressure to watch for a spawn, have grouped mobs mixed in with single mobs, etc. I never had the time to actually look around the world I payed money to play in. I can do that with Guild Wars and I was able to do that with UO, AC1, and AO as well. Surprisingly they had solo focus and even instancing to a degree in the case of AO.
The problem with our current MMORPG's is that they don't offer realistic detah penalties. ie. if after PK you drop 10 levels down, or have all your items dropped, or hardcore D2 character, then everyone would cry for instancing.
Sure when after death you lose ~nothing it's really cool, to go and say "instancing is bad, it hurts community".
If MMO games would make more real Death Penalties, then most of you so-called "Real Worldes, Real Timers" would start crying of PK, and DP being too cruel. And noone would remember the community.
Originally posted by Dragonmuse Personally, I like instances. I hate having to sit doing nothing waiting for spawns only to have somebody else steal it. I really think WoW's biggest community killing flaw and weakness is the lack of any formal structure for alliances. I loved the alliance system in DAoC. It allowed for smaller guilds to accomplish big things and allowed for open communication with some control. The current system pretty much forces guilds to be elitist. As far as I am concerned, its not the instances hurting the community.. its the lack of alliance chats. General chat does does not make up for it since there is no control over it and most of us eventually turn it off because of the childish behaviour. I don't think most people even want a community of hundreds of thousands.. they can't cope with such numbers or diversity. Alliances that allow 20 or so guilds to work together and get to know each other is much more comfortable and promotes communication and teamwork. I also agree that WoW could use some form of reward for the entire community to work for. I have been impressed with the pulling together I have seen for the war effort. I would like to see more of that kind of thing.
Oddly enough playing quite a few MMO's I haven't run into groups stealing kills that often, though if alot of areas in WoW weren't instanced perhaps maybe it would be more. In most of the MMO's I've played the game is designed well enough to accomodate more than one group or groups had a mutual understanding of how to pull the mobs..... That aside, having a little competition never hurt anyone.
WoW's community is almost a bad example because there is very little consequence to anything and most people do whatever they feel like. I'm sure that's why it's so popular, but it's a 2 edged sword.
Like everything else in an MMORPG it all depends on how its implemented. It would be nice if a certain dungeon was instanced because you are required to kill a named mob inside. I can't stand camping a named mob it just plain sucks. Anyone hear do the betrayal quest in EQ2? I have 3 times. The first time i did it in 4 hours, second time a day and a half, the third time 4 days because all the named mobs i needed had been killed off. I know people will say then don't do the quest. Well thats not a solution. That is shunning the problem. I am sure people here have camped mobs for 4 hours or more just to have someone come and kill it out from under them. So i would like to see instances for certain quests but not all. Its all about balance.
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I really don't like instancing in games, let's take EQ2 as an example.
After 30 minutes LFG'ing in 2 zones (thanks to more mobs being solo I can fight them whilst doing this) I finally find a few people on the same quest as me.
"Hmm I have to kill that named in Thundering Steppers, you on that part too yet?" "Yes I think this zone is bugged been waiting over 2 hours now" /s <randomperson> "This zone is soo laggy" /s <randomperson#2> "Go play WoW noob" "Shalll we go to zone 1?" "No if we both go it could spawn in this zone, you go I'll wait here. Besides you can track it" (The joys of being a scout)
<10 minutes pass of are you there yet etc>
"Damn" "What's up?" "There's a group here killing it" (Of course had there been no zones at all I would have known they were in Antonica 3 saving 30 mins of LFG'ing earlier) "Nooooo" "I've asked if we can join but their group is full and explained our zone is bugged, no luck" "Guess we will try tomorrow" "We could wait in zone 2 and see if another zone is created" "Never seen 3 zones in a loooong time"
Originally posted by Hashman I really don't like instancing in games, let's take EQ2 as an example. *snip*
Hrmn... I could be wrong or just not understanding this, as I'm relatively new to MMORPGs in general (having only played WoW, Guild Wars and a bit of AO)... but I thought the idea of instances is that it's unique copy of an area for every group of players... as to stop uninvited people to entering the same area and affecting the original group's effort in solving the area?
Are there perhaps different definitions of instances that I am unaware of...?
Outdoors pvp is almost dead they al in BG pvp realms wow are a joke becouse of this.
A feel of a world community in this case horde site almost none its rarely that one guild helps a other guild its al exclusive clubs no outsiders aloud.
WoW is a open exploring world thats realy great:).
But instance makes game a narrow minde community who form groups guilds and then the faction site is devided into groups to make your own group strong not horde side or alliance as a whole no only your own group, most dont give a damn in WoW about other guilds.
WoW is a very selfish community.
I have totally no feeling of a nice community with whole horde side out side guild are sometimes even more like nemys then same horde side:P
I have 5 lvl60 on 4 realms so i know what im talking about.
I quit WoW btw dont like it anymore community is to immature and game community is to far divided into small groups pvp dead and to much gold farming and instance farming.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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Originally posted by Choja Originally posted by Hashman I really don't like instancing in games, let's take EQ2 as an example. *snip*
Hrmn... I could be wrong or just not understanding this, as I'm relatively new to MMORPGs in general (having only played WoW, Guild Wars and a bit of AO)... but I thought the idea of instances is that it's unique copy of an area for every group of players... as to stop uninvited people to entering the same area and affecting the original group's effort in solving the area?
Are there perhaps different definitions of instances that I am unaware of...?
What I described was zoning which is a form of instance albeit not unique to each player. Each zone in EQ2 is comparable to a district in Guild Wars, both separate players from each other which I don't feel is conducive to a true masive multiplayer experience. A unique instance is just a further division and demonstrates how far the instance concept has gone. As far as I'm concerned every time you see a loading screen you enter an instance.
I don't believe that instancing is a technical issue, you can design a game without it. EVE has zones, but more aren't created when one zone is full. Aside from deadspace areas the rest of the game has no instancing at all. EVE server holds over 22,000 players compared with World of Warcraft population cap of 2,400 (good guestimate) once that's reached then you are placed in a queue.
Instancing is my opinion is the worst thing to ever happen to MMORPG's. It seperates the community and forces you to group. I don't want a game to have to baby me or baby sit me and thats what instancing does. Instancing was primarly created becuase of spawn camping, and in my mind there is many MANY diffrent and better ways to battle this problem. One being timers. On the super creatures or boss creatures that drop uber loot could have a 1 day timer or something preventing people from constantly camping it. Another way around this is to acutally put a large amount of content into the game and a random loot generator so people don't have to all go to the same place / places to get the loot they want. To use an example of this AC did this flawlessly. I played AC for the better part of 4 years and I never once had a problem with spawn camping. Finally another way around this problem is PVP. Every PVE problem is countered or taken care of on a full out open PVP server. If someone is camping your chest/creature spawn you either a.) Get along and take turns or b.) You kill em take his loot and the chest/creatures loot when it spawns.
As a final note I strongly belive that instancing is the worst thing to ever happen to MMORPG's and developers should aviod this at all costs and find other ways around PVE problems. Instances forces you to group and to use WoW as example, if you want to get your "uber" loot you have to be on at the exact time your guild is going to run these stupid instances over and over agian. Not only is this annoying and boaring, it ceperates your from the community and kills solobility.
I hope in the future developers will see this and stear clear of this destroying aspect of MMORPGS.
Originally posted by Hashman Aside from deadspace areas the rest of the game has no instancing at all.
Deadspace is "like" instancing, but it isn't exactly. You can scan the space to locate the person in the deadspace, so you can go into the deadspace too. Been there done that many times against people we had war on
Instancing ruins PvP. Period. Instanced PvP is prefabricated, prepackaged bullshit PvP. PvE instancing on PvP servers in WoW ruins PvP as well. It allows raid carebears to PvE in complete safety for ridiculous gear that is as good if not better than top end PvP gear that takes many times longer to attain. They then proceed to PvP with said gear. It is completely unbalancing. I don't even know why WoW has "PvP" servers, it's a complete joke. The only difference between WoW PvP servers and PvE servers are contested zones--which very few people even PvP in anymore because instancing has completely taken over. People seem to think that once they remove the DK's for killing civilians in cities that city raiding/use of contested zones is going to start up again...what a joke. The real reason city raid PvP has died is instances provide more incentives to PvP inside them. That isn't going to change.
Instancing is the worst thing that has ever happened to MMO's in terms of PvP.
Originally posted by remyburke There should be a balance (say 90% open, 10% instanced), saving instancing for only certain special quests or encounters...for example, getting taken prisoner by a band of orcs and having to escape from their village or dungeon. Instancing and voicechat have killed the MMO community. I cannot for the life of me figure out why people think that competing for spawns with other players is a bad thing. That's one of the things that makes MMOs great. There has to be frustration in order to enjoy victory...if it's all victory, who freaking cares? Yay!....I won....again....*yawn*. I know right off the bat that I am not going to stick around in an MMO if I don't get royally pissed off while playing now and again. It's all part of the experience....all part of the competition! Competition...remember that word? MMOs used to have loads of it back in the day. Instancing is a crutch used by game Devs because of flaws in their world flow. They just pass it off as "helping you make sure no one else ruins your fun"....please. There are plenty of other ways to deal with spawn camping. Look at what Vanguard is doing for example. They give 1 particular group a quest that has triggers throughout an OPEN WORLD that only they can set off, causing a series of spawns and sequences. That's just one way. What about making named mobs spawn completely randomly throughout a certain area? Wow...that would be hard too.
Well said on all points remy...
Instancing seems to be used as a crutch more than as to have real purpose...
I think instancing has its place and time... You can do VERY special events through instancing, but it should not base your entire universe on it....
Imagine entering a dark cave with your party. Right in front of you some brigands have just stolen a powerful amulet that could be used to control peoples mind! On their way out of there, they kidnapp your cleric and run deep into the caverns....
Oddly, the mage in your party starts acting wierd.. not able to cast when he wants all the time, and even hurting your party (maybe a parting give of the amulet by the brigands? ) You must hurry into the cavern fighting your way past their guards and save your cleric to save your mage before he gets worse!
You get the idea.. you can create very unique situations through instancing that you couldn't in the regular world of that mmorpg...
It has it's place, but it must be used correctly.
>>> Gynthazi <<< "Every man is a divinity in disguise, a God playing the fool." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I personally think that instancing is a good thing. Oneshould keep it in limits though - no guildwars like stuff. Instancing on the frequency as WoW or EQ2 do is cool. They should however make instances spread more in all levels and in all group sizes. Many games have instances only for Level 60 guild raids I personally would also enjoy a level 5 solo instance. During Halloween 2005 EQ2 had a haunted house instance which was meant for 1 player and scaled to his level. That was BRILLIANT!! MORE OF THOSE IN ALL GAMES
As for what instancing does to PvP, I don't care. I stay far away from l33t d00d ganking pvp games and servers.
I don't mind when games like EQ2 or CoH break up zones when an overflow occurs, of course it can be a pain occationally (Then again my server on EQ2 doesn't seem to usually have more than one zone). I even don't care that there are special quest areas that are instanced. What I care about is when every area instanced. To me that makes the main meeting place such as the town or tavern where everyone meets no more than a visual game lobby so people can group up for individual games. That is not Massively Multiplayer. In the case of Guild Wars it may be very cost effective that way, but it's a free monthly charge. DDO on the other hand expects us to pay? No way....
I think instancing is necessary in a lot of places. As an original EverQuest player I've been in countless arguments about camp stealing and kill stealing simply because the design of the game has meant that Mob_01 drops a really nice piece of loot and 4 zillion players all want it. Instancing means that everyone has an equal chance of getting what they want.
The flipside of that is that too much instancing basically creates a single-player or very limited LAN-esque community. Guild Wars for instance suffers from this because in a lot of cases it's better (or more profitable) to take henchmen (NPC group memebers) and go it effectively solo. This means no interaction with other people and a very lonely experience. The problem in that situation is that adding more players creates not so much arguements about loot, but more risk of totally screwing up and having to start over.
The EQ expansion Lost Dungeons of Norrath had possibly the best balance between open and instanced content - you formed your groups in the open, but when you got your mission you were the only ones in the zone. No loot or camp arguements, just a simple timed mission and then you were back into the land of the living.
And that's what I think it should be like - majority open world for group raid events, farming and meeting other people, but with enough instanced content to allow non-hardcore players to earn upgrades at their own pace, without the conflict that comes from having it open. 10% instancing is probably a good number, as long as there's a good selection of varying styles of instance - nobody wants all their adventures to look exactly the same.
I think that instancing is OK in principle - as long as the instance itself varies with the amount of people who enter... that way a solo player can complete the instance without needing assistance, or a group of 40 could complete the instance in a large, organised team and the amount of enemies and rewards would be proportional... both sides win, the solo'ers and the team players - and then everyone can enjoy their MMO of choice without fears about certain areas of the world being off limits.
I know that basically means that the designers of MMO's have to please all of the people all of the time, and we know that THAT isn't possible, but hey in an ideal world, it'd be great, wouldn't it?
Instancing can be both a curse or a blessing. I am a long time player of EQ and EQ2 and it is from my experience that I have seen it used to bring both positive and negative aspects to both of the games. Instancing in EQ2 has been used to make some of the quests in the game available to the more casual players, as not everyone can stay home and play all day long and not have a life.
In the original EQ it has been used to create missions that I believe are taking away from people getting out and exploring the world of Norrath. EQ has possibly the largest most diverse world of any MMORPG out there but too many people get caught up in doing missions to level up as quickly as possible. This detracts from experiencing the world of the game, and seeing lots of the content that has been in the game for a long time and deters players from learning how to play thier respective classes properly.
However instancing is slowly being put to good use in EQ also, this comes into play for quild events. Larger stronger guilds that have huge player bases of members that have much more time to play then casual players have made it very hard for the more casual player to advance in the game. It is for these more casual players that instancing can be a blessing. Anyone who has played an MMORPG knows that it may take some time to gather a raiding party to go and kill a target in a game. In the past while a smaller guild or pickup/open raid has been gathered those larger guilds would run in and kill the target which the smaller less experienced force was trying to rally to kill. This would make it next to impossible for those more casual players to advance in the game.
The larger guilds would do this so as to control that there was not anyone able to go into the areas they were in and possibly bring them competition for thier targets. Using instanced zones as an aid to help these smaller quilds and open raiders to participate in games I believe is a nessesary use of this type of mechanism. This allows all to experience and have fun in games and not have those who have more time to play to control whether or not others may get a chance to experience the full scope of a game.
Originally posted by LatH123 I personally think that instancing is a good thing. Oneshould keep it in limits though - no guildwars like stuff. Instancing on the frequency as WoW or EQ2 do is cool. They should however make instances spread more in all levels and in all group sizes. Many games have instances only for Level 60 guild raids I personally would also enjoy a level 5 solo instance. During Halloween 2005 EQ2 had a haunted house instance which was meant for 1 player and scaled to his level. That was BRILLIANT!! MORE OF THOSE IN ALL GAMES As for what instancing does to PvP, I don't care. I stay far away from l33t d00d ganking pvp games and servers.
I agree 100% with this post. I completely understand the opinions and frustrations of the hard core gamers here. I wish I could be one, but not so much that I would give up the other commitments in my life. As a casual gamer I want smaller instances than WOW currently has. Or some chance (even if its ridiculously small) to get good loot from something I can do by myself or with one other player when I only have 45 minutes to play.
I realize that the casual player is looked on with disdain by the expert gamers, but our money pays for these games to the exact same degree as yours. WOWs sucess has been to make something fun for people who would not normally play an MMORPG. Converting Diablo and Starcraft people. I did play UO, AC2, DAOC, Horizons, Lineage, and Guild Wars and loved parts of each - but WOW was the best 1-60 environment for me - but the level 60 content drives me insane. Either do smaller instances or none, but I can't commit 4 hours at a time very often and on the rare occasion when I do I will not spend 1 hour of it waiting for the group to get together.
Reading this thread and writing this repsonse was my gaming time for the day. The fact that I am spending it here tells you that no current game - instanced or not - offered me the chance to do something meaningfully fun in this same time.
It all started with a lantern, a sword, and a trap door...
That is a very well written article on the topic. Brad has certainly touched on the various topics surrounding instances and when to use or not to use them, and why. A good read
Instancing is Good. But there is a time to do it and a time not to.
For example you do NOT want an instanced pvp as it limits what can happen. It also means the pvp is not static in its results like DAOC is. DAOC is the best model out there for PVP (well they call it RVR but its still the best).
I have noticed many people going on about how the guilds in warcraft dont let people in becasue of instance. Well thats not why they are not letting people in... it is becasue of the way those dungeons are designed where you get to the end and not everyone who went on the raid gets something. This would be simple to fix by making the chest at the end of the raid produce something for each person who particpated like in D&D online. So having an instance raid is good WOW just missed the boat by not giving everyone the ability to get something from the raid.
I believe instances are great as part of the game like in Wow and Eve. I do not like a game that is totally instanced like Guild Wars. I think GW is a beautiful game, but I hate not being able to meet other players out in the field. For me, in GW all you do is stand around in towns, join a pug and then follow the person that has done the quest before. It's just not fun. Personnaly, I have quit GW and Wow and gone back to Eve. It's a real alternate universe that I can live in. The only problem is lag. I'm sure thats why devs are moving towards instancing. It does git rid of lag, but it alienates most of the players.
It's pretty obvious from reading this whole thread that once again the issue comes down to...
PvPers vs Non-PvPers.
It's becoming obvious that this problem can only be solved by making different games. (Or at least by having servers with totally different rules, but having instances on one and none on the other server is probably impossible and would require designing 2 totally different games)
So, maybe the only solution is to have the two communities separate totally. PvPers play one type of game (MMO-sandbox with the RPG left off) and the more casual non-pvpers play another type of game (CORPG).
What I dislike is the PvP/PK/Non-instancing crowd that NEVER recognize that other people EXIST and can't understand that they may not enjoy playing THEIR way. I can't see a "community" made up of this type of person being a very good community at all. (I think it's typified by a comment in this thread...If you are all camping a mob and can't agree to take turns, etc. just kill the other person, take their loot and then kill the mob and get the chest from that too. This is EXACTLY the problem! There is never anything to stop the higher level player and/or larger group doing exactly this EVERY TIME. This is why instancing is HERE TO STAY!)
I have played quite a few games and over all I have liked instancing in some and hated it in others. I agree with one of the earlier posts that AO probably used instances the best of any game so far. I haven't played D&DO yet, but instancing there sounds like a good idea too. Instances in WoW are a waste and do tend to break players off into smaller groups. So basically some instancing is good but the key is to not over do it and not to use section off endgame material or pvp.
Also I can't keep myself from mentioning this but over and over people are saying that instancing takes the MM out of MMORPG...but if MM stands for Massively Multiplayer then isn't instancing only taking away one M...after all you are going through instances with at least one other person so it is still multiplayer...(ok I'll get off my soapbox now). Just my $0.02.
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. ~Author Conan Doyle
Yea, i dont mind instancing if its a small part of the game. Making it the main way of doing things in a game takes the Massive out of it. Im not gonna pay $20-$30 bucks a month for multiplayer which comes free with every single player game out there. The good ones anyway. When you think about it those instanced areas are nothing but different maps anyways.
All this discusion bring up a strange question for me. Is it possible to make an MMORPG? One that people will love and hate, yet still continue to play.
They havent made my MMOG yet. Have they made yours?
Comments
Some people are commenting that MMORPGs are for you to interact with other players. That's true, that's what the mulitplayer is there for. What interaction is, is actually what is debateable I feel. Everyone isn't going to see it the same way.
For some simply trading, chatting, and seeing other players running around is all the interaction they need. For others, it isn't interaction unless you are constantly grouping with someone.
Why play a mmorpg if you like instancing or not grouping. That should be easy for everyone but a lot of people want to ignore it. Look at the actual worlds of mmorpgs. Look at the depth and size of them. They are so different then single player game save a few like Morrowind or traditional rpgs like Final Fantasy for example. That right there is one of the major reasons people play mmorpgs even if they want to solo. Saying you have to group is wrong. Massively Multiplayer does not equal grouping. All it simply means is that the you are playing with and along size a large number of other people and the game is massive. That's it.
It was Everquest that went with the grouping as a way of interacting. A lot of the games that came after it just didn't bother doing anything else and that became the norm but that isn't how it originally was. Look at Merdian 59, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call 1 and several of the other online games that were out back in the day. A lot allowed players to play solo while interacting with others via chat, pvp, trade. You didn't "have" to group with anyone or even interact if you didn't want to. So please can we drop this crap about if you don't want to interact then play something else. There are other reasons why a person would play a mmorpg and not all of them has to do with grouping or pvp.
As for instancing it self I'm all for it to be honest. I'm currently playing Guild Wars after being fed up with normal mmorpgs. I've play from UO to WoW/EQ2. I even tried out a bit of Meridan 59 when it was relaunched just to see what it was like. Instancing isn't bad at all. If there is one game that came out with a great middle ground, it would have to be Anarchy Online.
AO had missions you could do solo or as a group. They were basiclly dungeon crawls. Plus large areas in the world where you could hunt solo or in a group. My fondest memories are pre-Shadowlands though since I feel that really screwed up the game. They should have gone staight to Alien Invasion after Notum Wars.
Guild Wars has to much instancing I feel but I'm dealing with it. One thing I love about instancing, that doesn't seem possible without it, is the ability to tell a story. For it to seem like you are really making a difference due to your actions. There is where Guild Wars has all other mmorpgs save Final Fantasy XI beat but it's above FFXI since FFXi story cutscenes are limited.
I agree that there is this weird trade off in terms of instancing. With instancing you get more of the RP but less of the MM at times. Gathering in cities is nice but I think there should be some areas to run around with other players that don't really take away from the storyline of the game.
Instancing does cut contact with players but a global chat systme can really fix that. It does a lot of positive though if done correctly. Allows players to enjoy the story of the game. Think of all that lore in games that goes ignored or wasted by players in mmorpgs due to blowing through content to level to get to the end game. I'm actually enjoying the adventure through missions in Guild Wars. Not to level but to fight out what happens next in the story. That's where my main focus has been. If I want to PvP, I get my PvP character (already at level 20) and go to the arenas or pvp missions (still apart of my guild). It also does away with camping, training, annoying low levels or high levels interupting your play. As a solo player you can stop where you are if you are safe and leave the computer without having to worry about something respawning since you are trying to complete the instance. If you want to group, get people together and play.
Instancing has allowed me to pay more attention to the actual world I"m playing in since I'm not under the pressure to watch for a spawn, have grouped mobs mixed in with single mobs, etc. I never had the time to actually look around the world I payed money to play in. I can do that with Guild Wars and I was able to do that with UO, AC1, and AO as well. Surprisingly they had solo focus and even instancing to a degree in the case of AO.
The problem with our current MMORPG's is that they don't offer realistic detah penalties. ie. if after PK you drop 10 levels down, or have all your items dropped, or hardcore D2 character, then everyone would cry for instancing.
Sure when after death you lose ~nothing it's really cool, to go and say "instancing is bad, it hurts community".
If MMO games would make more real Death Penalties, then most of you so-called "Real Worldes, Real Timers" would start crying of PK, and DP being too cruel. And noone would remember the community.
Oddly enough playing quite a few MMO's I haven't run into groups stealing kills that often, though if alot of areas in WoW weren't instanced perhaps maybe it would be more. In most of the MMO's I've played the game is designed well enough to accomodate more than one group or groups had a mutual understanding of how to pull the mobs..... That aside, having a little competition never hurt anyone.
WoW's community is almost a bad example because there is very little consequence to anything and most people do whatever they feel like. I'm sure that's why it's so popular, but it's a 2 edged sword.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.
I really don't like instancing in games, let's take EQ2 as an example.
After 30 minutes LFG'ing in 2 zones (thanks to more mobs being solo I can fight them whilst doing this) I finally find a few people on the same quest as me.
"Hmm I have to kill that named in Thundering Steppers, you on that part too yet?"
"Yes I think this zone is bugged been waiting over 2 hours now"
/s <randomperson> "This zone is soo laggy"
/s <randomperson#2> "Go play WoW noob"
"Shalll we go to zone 1?"
"No if we both go it could spawn in this zone, you go I'll wait here. Besides you can track it" (The joys of being a scout)
<10 minutes pass of are you there yet etc>
"Damn"
"What's up?"
"There's a group here killing it" (Of course had there been no zones at all I would have known they were in Antonica 3 saving 30 mins of LFG'ing earlier)
"Nooooo"
"I've asked if we can join but their group is full and explained our zone is bugged, no luck"
"Guess we will try tomorrow"
"We could wait in zone 2 and see if another zone is created"
"Never seen 3 zones in a loooong time"
That's a typical scenario
Hrmn... I could be wrong or just not understanding this, as I'm relatively new to MMORPGs in general (having only played WoW, Guild Wars and a bit of AO)... but I thought the idea of instances is that it's unique copy of an area for every group of players... as to stop uninvited people to entering the same area and affecting the original group's effort in solving the area?
Are there perhaps different definitions of instances that I am unaware of...?
Outdoors pvp is almost dead they al in BG pvp realms wow are a joke becouse of this.
A feel of a world community in this case horde site almost none its rarely that one guild helps a other guild its al exclusive clubs no outsiders aloud.
WoW is a open exploring world thats realy great:).
But instance makes game a narrow minde community who form groups guilds and then the faction site is devided into groups to make your own group strong not horde side or alliance as a whole no only your own group, most dont give a damn in WoW about other guilds.
WoW is a very selfish community.
I have totally no feeling of a nice community with whole horde side out side guild are sometimes even more like nemys then same horde side:P
I have 5 lvl60 on 4 realms so i know what im talking about.
I quit WoW btw dont like it anymore community is to immature and game community is to far divided into small groups pvp dead and to much gold farming and instance farming.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
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GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
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OS:Windows 10 64bit
Hrmn... I could be wrong or just not understanding this, as I'm relatively new to MMORPGs in general (having only played WoW, Guild Wars and a bit of AO)... but I thought the idea of instances is that it's unique copy of an area for every group of players... as to stop uninvited people to entering the same area and affecting the original group's effort in solving the area?
Are there perhaps different definitions of instances that I am unaware of...?
What I described was zoning which is a form of instance albeit not unique to each player. Each zone in EQ2 is comparable to a district in Guild Wars, both separate players from each other which I don't feel is conducive to a true masive multiplayer experience. A unique instance is just a further division and demonstrates how far the instance concept has gone. As far as I'm concerned every time you see a loading screen you enter an instance.
I don't believe that instancing is a technical issue, you can design a game without it. EVE has zones, but more aren't created when one zone is full. Aside from deadspace areas the rest of the game has no instancing at all. EVE server holds over 22,000 players compared with World of Warcraft population cap of 2,400 (good guestimate) once that's reached then you are placed in a queue.
I highly recommend reading http://www.gamergod.com/article.php?article_id=2933.
Instancing is my opinion is the worst thing to ever happen to MMORPG's. It seperates the community and forces you to group. I don't want a game to have to baby me or baby sit me and thats what instancing does. Instancing was primarly created becuase of spawn camping, and in my mind there is many MANY diffrent and better ways to battle this problem. One being timers. On the super creatures or boss creatures that drop uber loot could have a 1 day timer or something preventing people from constantly camping it. Another way around this is to acutally put a large amount of content into the game and a random loot generator so people don't have to all go to the same place / places to get the loot they want. To use an example of this AC did this flawlessly. I played AC for the better part of 4 years and I never once had a problem with spawn camping. Finally another way around this problem is PVP. Every PVE problem is countered or taken care of on a full out open PVP server. If someone is camping your chest/creature spawn you either a.) Get along and take turns or b.) You kill em take his loot and the chest/creatures loot when it spawns.
As a final note I strongly belive that instancing is the worst thing to ever happen to MMORPG's and developers should aviod this at all costs and find other ways around PVE problems. Instances forces you to group and to use WoW as example, if you want to get your "uber" loot you have to be on at the exact time your guild is going to run these stupid instances over and over agian. Not only is this annoying and boaring, it ceperates your from the community and kills solobility.
I hope in the future developers will see this and stear clear of this destroying aspect of MMORPGS.
me
Deadspace is "like" instancing, but it isn't exactly.
You can scan the space to locate the person in the deadspace, so you can go into the deadspace too.
Been there done that many times against people we had war on
Instancing ruins PvP. Period. Instanced PvP is prefabricated, prepackaged bullshit PvP. PvE instancing on PvP servers in WoW ruins PvP as well. It allows raid carebears to PvE in complete safety for ridiculous gear that is as good if not better than top end PvP gear that takes many times longer to attain. They then proceed to PvP with said gear. It is completely unbalancing. I don't even know why WoW has "PvP" servers, it's a complete joke. The only difference between WoW PvP servers and PvE servers are contested zones--which very few people even PvP in anymore because instancing has completely taken over. People seem to think that once they remove the DK's for killing civilians in cities that city raiding/use of contested zones is going to start up again...what a joke. The real reason city raid PvP has died is instances provide more incentives to PvP inside them. That isn't going to change.
Instancing is the worst thing that has ever happened to MMO's in terms of PvP.
Well said on all points remy...
Instancing seems to be used as a crutch more than as to have real purpose...
I think instancing has its place and time... You can do VERY special events through instancing, but it should not base your entire universe on it....
Imagine entering a dark cave with your party. Right in front of you some brigands have just stolen a powerful amulet that could be used to control peoples mind! On their way out of there, they kidnapp your cleric and run deep into the caverns....
Oddly, the mage in your party starts acting wierd.. not able to cast when he wants all the time, and even hurting your party (maybe a parting give of the amulet by the brigands? ) You must hurry into the cavern fighting your way past their guards and save your cleric to save your mage before he gets worse!
You get the idea.. you can create very unique situations through instancing that you couldn't in the regular world of that mmorpg...
It has it's place, but it must be used correctly.
>>> Gynthazi <<<
"Every man is a divinity in disguise, a God playing the fool." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I personally think that instancing is a good thing. Oneshould keep it in limits though - no guildwars like stuff. Instancing on the frequency as WoW or EQ2 do is cool. They should however make instances spread more in all levels and in all group sizes. Many games have instances only for Level 60 guild raids I personally would also enjoy a level 5 solo instance. During Halloween 2005 EQ2 had a haunted house instance which was meant for 1 player and scaled to his level. That was BRILLIANT!! MORE OF THOSE IN ALL GAMES
As for what instancing does to PvP, I don't care. I stay far away from l33t d00d ganking pvp games and servers.
I don't mind when games like EQ2 or CoH break up zones when an overflow occurs, of course it can be a pain occationally (Then again my server on EQ2 doesn't seem to usually have more than one zone). I even don't care that there are special quest areas that are instanced. What I care about is when every area instanced. To me that makes the main meeting place such as the town or tavern where everyone meets no more than a visual game lobby so people can group up for individual games. That is not Massively Multiplayer. In the case of Guild Wars it may be very cost effective that way, but it's a free monthly charge. DDO on the other hand expects us to pay? No way....
I think instancing is necessary in a lot of places. As an original EverQuest player I've been in countless arguments about camp stealing and kill stealing simply because the design of the game has meant that Mob_01 drops a really nice piece of loot and 4 zillion players all want it. Instancing means that everyone has an equal chance of getting what they want.
The flipside of that is that too much instancing basically creates a single-player or very limited LAN-esque community. Guild Wars for instance suffers from this because in a lot of cases it's better (or more profitable) to take henchmen (NPC group memebers) and go it effectively solo. This means no interaction with other people and a very lonely experience. The problem in that situation is that adding more players creates not so much arguements about loot, but more risk of totally screwing up and having to start over.
The EQ expansion Lost Dungeons of Norrath had possibly the best balance between open and instanced content - you formed your groups in the open, but when you got your mission you were the only ones in the zone. No loot or camp arguements, just a simple timed mission and then you were back into the land of the living.
And that's what I think it should be like - majority open world for group raid events, farming and meeting other people, but with enough instanced content to allow non-hardcore players to earn upgrades at their own pace, without the conflict that comes from having it open. 10% instancing is probably a good number, as long as there's a good selection of varying styles of instance - nobody wants all their adventures to look exactly the same.
I think that instancing is OK in principle - as long as the instance itself varies with the amount of people who enter... that way a solo player can complete the instance without needing assistance, or a group of 40 could complete the instance in a large, organised team and the amount of enemies and rewards would be proportional... both sides win, the solo'ers and the team players - and then everyone can enjoy their MMO of choice without fears about certain areas of the world being off limits.
I know that basically means that the designers of MMO's have to please all of the people all of the time, and we know that THAT isn't possible, but hey in an ideal world, it'd be great, wouldn't it?
-=-=-
Comebyu
Instancing can be both a curse or a blessing. I am a long time player of EQ and EQ2 and it is from my experience that I have seen it used to bring both positive and negative aspects to both of the games. Instancing in EQ2 has been used to make some of the quests in the game available to the more casual players, as not everyone can stay home and play all day long and not have a life.
In the original EQ it has been used to create missions that I believe are taking away from people getting out and exploring the world of Norrath. EQ has possibly the largest most diverse world of any MMORPG out there but too many people get caught up in doing missions to level up as quickly as possible. This detracts from experiencing the world of the game, and seeing lots of the content that has been in the game for a long time and deters players from learning how to play thier respective classes properly.
However instancing is slowly being put to good use in EQ also, this comes into play for quild events. Larger stronger guilds that have huge player bases of members that have much more time to play then casual players have made it very hard for the more casual player to advance in the game. It is for these more casual players that instancing can be a blessing. Anyone who has played an MMORPG knows that it may take some time to gather a raiding party to go and kill a target in a game. In the past while a smaller guild or pickup/open raid has been gathered those larger guilds would run in and kill the target which the smaller less experienced force was trying to rally to kill. This would make it next to impossible for those more casual players to advance in the game.
The larger guilds would do this so as to control that there was not anyone able to go into the areas they were in and possibly bring them competition for thier targets. Using instanced zones as an aid to help these smaller quilds and open raiders to participate in games I believe is a nessesary use of this type of mechanism. This allows all to experience and have fun in games and not have those who have more time to play to control whether or not others may get a chance to experience the full scope of a game.
I agree 100% with this post. I completely understand the opinions and frustrations of the hard core gamers here. I wish I could be one, but not so much that I would give up the other commitments in my life. As a casual gamer I want smaller instances than WOW currently has. Or some chance (even if its ridiculously small) to get good loot from something I can do by myself or with one other player when I only have 45 minutes to play.
I realize that the casual player is looked on with disdain by the expert gamers, but our money pays for these games to the exact same degree as yours. WOWs sucess has been to make something fun for people who would not normally play an MMORPG. Converting Diablo and Starcraft people. I did play UO, AC2, DAOC, Horizons, Lineage, and Guild Wars and loved parts of each - but WOW was the best 1-60 environment for me - but the level 60 content drives me insane. Either do smaller instances or none, but I can't commit 4 hours at a time very often and on the rare occasion when I do I will not spend 1 hour of it waiting for the group to get together.
Reading this thread and writing this repsonse was my gaming time for the day. The fact that I am spending it here tells you that no current game - instanced or not - offered me the chance to do something meaningfully fun in this same time.
It all started with a lantern, a sword, and a trap door...
[quote]Originally posted by Hashman
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I highly recommend reading http://www.gamergod.com/article.php?article_id=2933.
That is a very well written article on the topic. Brad has certainly touched on the various topics surrounding instances and when to use or not to use them, and why. A good read
Instancing is Good. But there is a time to do it and a time not to.
For example you do NOT want an instanced pvp as it limits what can happen. It also means the pvp is not static in its results like DAOC is. DAOC is the best model out there for PVP (well they call it RVR but its still the best).
I have noticed many people going on about how the guilds in warcraft dont let people in becasue of instance. Well thats not why they are not letting people in... it is becasue of the way those dungeons are designed where you get to the end and not everyone who went on the raid gets something. This would be simple to fix by making the chest at the end of the raid produce something for each person who particpated like in D&D online. So having an instance raid is good WOW just missed the boat by not giving everyone the ability to get something from the raid.
Instancing is fine and even wanted for PvE as it keeps a lot of the grief out.
But as far as PvP it's just annoying and leads to exclusive little clicks.
It's pretty obvious from reading this whole thread that once again the issue comes down to...
PvPers vs Non-PvPers.
It's becoming obvious that this problem can only be solved by making different games. (Or at least by having servers with totally different rules, but having instances on one and none on the other server is probably impossible and would require designing 2 totally different games)
So, maybe the only solution is to have the two communities separate totally. PvPers play one type of game (MMO-sandbox with the RPG left off) and the more casual non-pvpers play another type of game (CORPG).
What I dislike is the PvP/PK/Non-instancing crowd that NEVER recognize that other people EXIST and can't understand that they may not enjoy playing THEIR way. I can't see a "community" made up of this type of person being a very good community at all. (I think it's typified by a comment in this thread...If you are all camping a mob and can't agree to take turns, etc. just kill the other person, take their loot and then kill the mob and get the chest from that too. This is EXACTLY the problem! There is never anything to stop the higher level player and/or larger group doing exactly this EVERY TIME. This is why instancing is HERE TO STAY!)
I have played quite a few games and over all I have liked instancing in some and hated it in others. I agree with one of the earlier posts that AO probably used instances the best of any game so far. I haven't played D&DO yet, but instancing there sounds like a good idea too. Instances in WoW are a waste and do tend to break players off into smaller groups. So basically some instancing is good but the key is to not over do it and not to use section off endgame material or pvp.
Also I can't keep myself from mentioning this but over and over people are saying that instancing takes the MM out of MMORPG...but if MM stands for Massively Multiplayer then isn't instancing only taking away one M...after all you are going through instances with at least one other person so it is still multiplayer...(ok I'll get off my soapbox now). Just my $0.02.
It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. ~Author Conan Doyle
Yea, i dont mind instancing if its a small part of the game. Making it the main way of doing things in a game takes the Massive out of it. Im not gonna pay $20-$30 bucks a month for multiplayer which comes free with every single player game out there. The good ones anyway. When you think about it those instanced areas are nothing but different maps anyways.
All this discusion bring up a strange question for me. Is it possible to make an MMORPG? One that people will love and hate, yet still continue to play.
They havent made my MMOG yet. Have they made yours?